The Jordan Harbinger Show - 497: David Kilgour | The Heartless Art of Forced Organ Harvesting

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

David Kilgour is a human rights activist, former lawyer, and Canadian politician. He is a Senior Fellow to the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, and co-author of Bloody Harvest: Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China. What We Discuss with David Kilgour: Who is targeted by the Chinese government for forced organ harvesting, and why? How long has this illicit trade been going on, and who does it benefit? How much does a healthy kidney, heart, or lung go for on this immoral market? Who is Gao Zhisheng, and why is his story important? How these atrocities have been brought to light and what efforts are being undertaken by the international community to put an end to them. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/497 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Chances are you go to the number one people's hospital in Shanghai. The doctor comes up and sees you, takes your liver, your blood type, and so on. And then he finds that somebody's a matching organ for you in camp number 50. And that poor man is taken out of a dormitory and is taken in, and his kidney liver and so on are taken out. He's, of course, killed in the process. They burn his body, and they fly the organs to you in Shanghai.

You come home with a new kidney or liver for, you're hoping that it didn't happen the way it did, but in fact, it did happen. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, spies and psychologists, astronauts and entrepreneurs, even the occasional four-star general Russian chess grandmaster or organized crime figure. And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deep, understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show or you want to get somebody into the show, we created these starter packs for you. These are collections of your favorite episodes, popular episodes in any case, organized by topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com

slash start or share that link with somebody else. That'll help you get started. It'll help somebody else get started. And of course, I always appreciate it when you do that. Doing prep for today's episode made my insides hurt. Just reading about it. this, just watching this stuff, skip this episode if you're about to eat or you have kids in the car. I'm not even kidding. And that's because today we're talking about forced organ harvesting. This is, unfortunately, exactly what it sounds like. Vital organs, including kidneys, livers, corneas, and hearts are being seized involuntarily for sale at high prices in China, often to foreigners who normally face long waits for voluntary donations of such organs

in their home countries. Let me repeat. that. Prisoners are having their organs taken from them and sold without consent. They're being used as on-demand organ banks. And it gets worse, as you're going to hear about today on the podcast. Typically, these are political prisoners or prisoners of conscience, which makes the whole thing even more disgusting, just in case you didn't think it could get any worse. Many victims belong to specific religious groups, such as Falun Gong or the Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities in China. And I want to be very clear that this is about forced organ trafficking being done by the Chinese Communist Party. It has nothing to do with the Chinese people who are in fact suffering the most from this as it is their organs that are being stolen from

them by their government. I heard about this 20 years ago when a Falun Gong guy in college told me about this, but I didn't believe it. It was too horrible. I thought he was a weirdo doing Tai Chi or whatever in the quad. I never listened to it. Also, whenever cults say we're victims of something, I'm always a little skeptical, but I started to see this with other ethnic groups, and it just became very clear that there was something there. I also made the mistake of watching these documentaries about organ harvesting over dinner. Not recommended. Again, maybe no kids in the car for this one. This is one of those episodes I found disturbing and fascinating at the same time, and something I had no idea was actually happening. And for that reason,

I think it's an important listen as we build our awareness of these types of crimes against humanity. Normally, I plug six-minute networking here, but it's just such a horrible, awkward transition that I don't know how to do it in any way that's not completely tacky. Something, something, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where the six-minute networking course is thing. I feel gross doing that. All right, here we go with our guest, David Kilgore. You know, it's interesting.

The Uyghur genocide is something that I think, you know, a friend of mine said, this is one of those things where when our kids are like 20 or even younger, they're going to say, what were you doing, you know, when this was happening? What were you thinking when this was happening? You know, what was it like when that was happening? I think especially with my family because my son is half Asian and my wife is 100% Asian. That's how that works, by the way, people, if you don't know. And so he might be like, oh, so in China they were trying to remove people that were different than them, you know, because we think about that a lot. And my brother-in-law, also Asian, he's saying things like, yeah, you know, we were out at the club and somebody said something to somebody and then like,

we went to this restaurant and somebody said something nasty to us. So there's a lot of kind of like anti-Asian sentiment in the U.S. right now. And so I'm hesitant about doing episodes like this, even though they're super important because of that reason. And so I kind of want to highlight that. And I know you're on the same page if you want to speak to that a little bit. Sure. I wrote an article about exactly the point you were just making. A friend of mine who's originally from Hong Kong asked me to write it. So I wrote it was published. But unfortunately, it was published in the Epuck Times. And I guess, I don't want to go there too short.

Yeah. But you can say that. I mean, I did write that. I represented in parliament for 27 years, thousands of Canadians of origin in China and all over Asia. So believe me, I'm sensitive to what can happen. The reason I'm bringing this up now is because I do these anti-communist party or anti-government of China episodes that highlight crimes,

that highlight human rights abuses. And every single time I do it, I get an email from somebody who is either, in China, in Hong Kong, in the United States, or in Canada. And they're like, why do you hate Chinese people or this is a bunch of propaganda BS? And I always, I try to reply and engage, because I don't want, I don't want to lose Chinese listeners and fans, because I care. The reason I do this is because I care about people, especially Chinese people who are living under authoritarian regimes. If I didn't care, I would just ignore it, you know, like everyone else, frankly, is doing. That's exactly what we say all the time, too, that we were trying to protect

people. Most of the Falun Gong practitioners, for example, and of course the Uyghurs, that's a slightly different issue because they feel they're completely discriminated against in China. You probably know, we talked about this a little bit. And I think I told you about my friend who went to university in Shanghai. Let me back up the truck a little bit here

because I think a lot of people are going, wait, I thought you were going to talk about, Oregon harvesting, you know, what are you talking about? Genocide, you're talking about World War II now. What's going on, Jordan? So let me take it back a notch. You start anywhere you want. This is one of those topics.

I have to say this is one of those topics that I thought was maybe urban legend, possibly a good amount of BS when I first heard about it because when you hear of forced organ trafficking, it just sounds like, oh, my friend went to Mexico and then they woke up in a bathtub with ice and someone stole their kidney. And then you find out that nobody's friend had that happened to them ever in Mexico. And it's just a thing that high school kids tell themselves or each other. So what is going on here? What is forced organ harvesting? It's essentially taking the vital organs of heart, lung, liver, corneas, any important organ that we have from people without a trial,

without any procedure whatsoever in the case of China, and selling these organs to wealthy Chinese citizens and to what we call organ tourists coming from places like America and Canada. And it's been going on at least since 1995 in the case of the Uyghurs. We've documented that with an eyewitness. In fact, a surgeon who did it, who's since left. China and he's now living in Britain and he's doing his best to try to stop persecution of Uighurs. And we've talked, for example, a woman called Annie came to Washington in 2005, six and said that her husband had removed the corneas from the eyes of 3,000 Falun Gong practitioners in a place

called Sujiatin had sold them for huge amounts of money. And eventually the two of them, he was having nightmares and they couldn't take it anymore, so the two of them fled, and she's now in the States, and he's now in Canada, actually. It's got nothing to do with health. It's got only to do with making money for the doctors, the surgeons, the pilots who fly the organs from the camps where these prisoners of conscience are working 16 hours a day, making, incidentally, they've told us some of the ones who got out, making goods for the West. And then what they do is every three months, we've been told they would call them in and doctors would examine their eyes and their organs. And then they'd record that in a data bank.

If you, Jordan, if you arrive for a new liver, chances are you go to the number one people's hospital in Shanghai. The doctor comes up and sees you, takes your liver, your blood type, and so on. And then he finds that somebody's a matching organ for you in camp number 50. And that poor man is taken out of a dormitory and is taken in, and his kidney liver and so on are taken out. He's, of course, killed in the process. They burn his body and they fly the organs to you in Shanghai.

you come home with a new kidney or liver for, you're hoping that it didn't happen the way it did, but in fact, it did happen. This is, so now people see why I said this sounds like urban legend, because when you hear it, you go, I refuse to believe that humanity is this horrible. Look, I've read about the Holocaust, we've learned about World War II. There's just no way that it's happening again, except it's even worse because it's just for much, like, it's somehow even worse that it's just for cash. There's no ideology element here, or very little ideology element here.

Maybe they're trying to remove the Uyghur culture or Falun Gong, which is a cult for people that don't know. It's like a culty kind of belief system. Maybe they're trying to remove that. But that's not like, okay, we really need to remove Falun Gong. How are we going to do it? We're going to sell their body parts. That's not what's going on here. What's going on here is someone said, you know what?

There's huge amounts of money in organs. We also don't like these people and don't value them. Let's just literally butcher them and sell the pieces to wealthy foreigners and wealthy elites in our own country. and that is so gross that if you're listening right now with kids in the car, in fact, I want to make a note that if you're listening with kids in the car, skip this episode. Thousands of people are going to China for this. It's huge business. And I read some of your reports in the documentaries and things like that that I've seen online,

some of which unfortunately are produced by Falun Gong. So it's kind of like exaggerated maybe, but it's even if it's one percent true, then it's still really horrific and disgusting. But there's people going from Taiwan, from Korea, from the Middle East, from the United States, and I want to highlight that so people don't think, oh, I'm just picking on China, from the United States and Canada are going there to get these organ matches. And, David, I got to say there's a part of me that understands a little bit. You know, if I have three kids or any kids, and I'm dying and I'm 60 years old or 50 years old or 41,

which I am now, and someone says, you drew a bad hand, man, and we're going to try and get you a liver, but it's probably going to be like two or three years because that's the wait time in the United States, at least, or you can go to China and you can have one in like 36 hours and you have a really good chance of surviving that because we're going to be able to do it in 36 hours. You don't have to live with kidney failure or liver failure for the next few years until we find someone. I understand that people would go, I'm just going to tell myself that they have these, they just have a lot of people and that these organs have been on ice and everything's fine and I just don't want to know and I'm going to come home and live my life. I understand that perspective as well, which is maybe that

thing about me, but I think survival instinct is powerful. Yeah, I hasten to point out that in about 200 countries in the world now, there's only one where the government started the system, runs the system, and people grow very large monies for doing it, as I said, including the surgeons, of course, the nurses, the hospitals, the pilots who fly the organs from the work camps, forced labor camps, by the way, fly the organs into usually a place like Shanghai if the person getting the organ is, say, from the west. It's simply hideous, and as you said, it's something that seems unimaginable. to most of us in the 21st century that this is happening. One thing that I found disturbing was, look, I understand if you're from Canada, the U.S.,

Taiwan, you go there and you just, you're rationalizing things. I don't forgive that behavior. I want to be very clear. But in some cases, it sounds like, for example, Middle Eastern embassies are paying the bill for these surgeries, which I don't know if you know anything about that. I did read that. I haven't been able to verify that necessarily, but talk about complicity. When the embassy is paying the bill for the surgery, it's like, well, what's going on here?

I mean, you have to know that when you have thousands of people coming over, and the wait time in the United States, Europe is years, and the wait time in China is a few hours to a few days or maybe a week. I mean, Dick Cheney, right, former vice president of the United States waited two years for a heart transplant, and Joe Schmoe, Jordan Harbinger, can fly over to Shanghai and get a liver, like, on demand. I mean, something is not right. One of the things we've learned, by the way, though, Jordan, from talking to people who've had organs in some cases, is that a lot of the organs they get are not reliable or not treated properly, they're not oxygenated, all these things that are supposed to be done.

So in fact, there's a fairly high need of people having to go back for another organ in China. Of course, that's more profits for the people involved. And it's because they don't give a damn about you as the person getting the organ. They just want the $75,000 for a new heart or whatever you're having to pay. So there's a very high failure rate of people who go to organs and come back. I remember talking to one man from country in Asia who told me he had to go four times to get a kidney. That's four dead people. Four people died so he could get a kidney that appears to be now working. Or two, just doing the math, right? But still, probably the likelihood that they take a kidney out and then send the guy back to the work camp is pretty slim, I suppose.

No, that never have. We're absolutely certain that they take all your organs. They don't just take one kidney. They take all your vital organs. Most of them are wasted because they can't find somebody who needs a heart quickly as the person waiting in Shanghai. for an organ. They cremate your body, so there's no evidence, too. Right, okay, because there's essentially unlimited supply, so they're not worried that they don't have a match for the heart or for the liver. If somebody needs the kidney, they just say, well, there's 300,000 more people in here, and a few thousand are matches. It's just, they're just getting rid of the extra. It's somehow traumatizing to talk about this like this, because it's almost like I'm talking about wasting food at a restaurant. Like, hey, look, I really want this dish. Sorry, no substitutions. All right, fine.

I'll just throw the potato salad away because I really like the salmon. And it's so callous to think about it like that, but that's literally the same mindset that it sounds like we're talking about when it comes to organ transplants. You mentioned Falun Gong a little while ago, and I hasten to say that David Matas and I who wrote the first book, he's Jewish, I'm a Christian, and he's an expert on the Holocaust, by the way, and I was a prosecutor for 10 years, so I should know something about evidence. Falun Gong are sought out because they don't smoke or drink, so therefore their organs tend to be better than people who drink. And same with the Uyghurs. They seem to be sought out after too because they're such a large group of them. And that's what they want is they want a large

group of people who are in prisons or in working for forced labor in various parts of China or in the Xinjiang part of China. It's a whole macchiavellian, no, macchiavellian wouldn't do anything as bad as this. This is beyond anything, even the Nazis could have. Of course, they didn't have the ability technically to do with the Nazis, but now, of course, the technology is there to do it. So wait times usually, for those who don't know, are on regular organs in the West, you know, Europe, United States. The wait times are long because they have to come out of healthy donors. So you wait, like, I looked up average wait times. Eight months for a heart, 26 months for a liver, kidneys 37 months. I'm not sure why those

are different, but they are. Organs can't survive long outside the body. So China essentially is using these executed prisoners, and the executions are time to match the transplant needs. That's what we're saying when we're saying it's on demand. So that hence the shorter wait times. By the way, it's not an execution. They used to use executed prisoners, and fortunately the number of executions is going down now, although I think if I'm not mistaken, there are 57 offenses in China you can be executed for. But most of these people are never convicted of anything, not a capital offense, nada. They just are out working in these camps, forced labor camps, obviously.

They don't get paid. They live in a dormitory, some of them with 16 people. And that when their unlucky day arrives, somebody comes and drags them out over to the operating table where they're killed in the process for moving their organs. It's just horrendous that this is happening. It is, and it sounds like a weird conspiracy theory, and I told you actually before,

one of the reasons that you're sitting in front of me right now is because I did a previous episode on this that I ended up not being able to release because it turned out that the doctor I was talking to had lied to me about being a member of Falun Gong, which means like everything he says about Falun Gong being the victim of this, it's immediately called into question.

and I had to search high and low and call you in your house one morning at 7.30 a.m., sorry about that. I figured I was getting an office answering machine. But I had to sort of search for you high and low because everyone who's sort of screaming from the rooftops about this besides you and David Mattis, there's an agenda attached to it. And I wanted to find somebody who didn't have a hidden agenda attached to this because it's so important to not exaggerate things like this because the second we do, then people go, oh, well, maybe the Uyghur thing's not a big deal, and that's not happening either. Maybe there isn't really a genocide.

I'm just going to go watch Bravo TV now. And that's dangerous, right? Yeah, and we were told very clearly that that's why they asked David Meadis and I to do it, because we were not Falun Gong practitioners. We're obviously not Uighurs. When we started in 2006, it wasn't the situation with the Uighur community, but there certainly is now. And they're the new, unfortunately, I think they're running out of Falun Gong prisoners.

And now, now it's, unfortunately, it's this large Uighur community that's becoming the next victim group. When you say they wanted us to do this, who's they? Oh, it was a group called the Coalition to investigate the persecution of Falun Gong, based in Washington, actually. And they actually phoned me and asked me if I would do it. And they wanted to have a group of 10 people do it. Can you imagine how you can do something like this with 10 people?

And so David and I have both known each other since we grew up in the same city. We've worked extremely well together. And now, as you know, I'm sure, we're working with Ethan Gutman, who spent seven years researching his book, The Slaughter, and he's now doing further research on what's happening to the Uyghurs and else in the Stan countries in Central Asia. So, yeah, we've put a lot of work into this. I assume none of you are allowed to go to China anytime soon.

Well, do you know who invited us to go to China? It was Gaoji Shang. Do you know who he is? He's a lawyer? No. He was incredible, man. He grew up in a cave. Wait, he literally grew up in a cave?

Literally grew up in a cave. His family lived in a cave in the peripheral part of China. And when he got through it, he was in the Army for several years, met his wife there. He managed to get through law. Pass the bar exams without going to law school. And he became a lawyer for the persecuted community, people who had been thrown out of their homes and so on.

And then one day he started helping Falun Gong practitioners. And so they took away his license. He's tragically, we said he's in Nelson Mandela of China. He's been in jail for out of sight for many years. His wife and daughter and son live in California. Oh, wow. I've been to see them. They're doing well. The story of Gauchy Shang is Google him. If anyone deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, it's him. I mean, I will look that up. I'm just amazed that he grew up in a cave. I'm still hung up on that. Meanwhile, he passed the bar without going to law school. This guy's making me feel kind of foolish right now. I went to law school. Well, you did too. Imagine passing without going to school.

Well, and he's written, he wrote a book recently in prison about why democracy and so on would help China. And it obviously would. But his government comes down on like a ton of bricks. Yeah. I'm sure it was wildly popular over there, right? Among the Chinese Communist Party who they love democracy. And again, I want to highlight that the reason we do episodes like this are because I care about all people, but I especially care about oppressed people. And Chinese people might not feel oppressed, especially the ones that are sending me email about how I must hate China. But if you are in a country that takes any prisoners and sells their organs to other people for money, even though those people committed no crimes, you are living in a place that has serious, serious problems with the way that it is being run.

And the United States is not an exception to this, but as far as I know, we're not selling people for their organs, not that that's the line, but that's what we're talking about here today. Now, when you investigated this, and I read this, the numbers don't match up when it comes to voluntary organ donors in China, because a lot of folks might say, hey, look, what about there's just so, there's 1.3 billion people in China. What if there's just enough volunteers that there's a ton of organs, and that's why, you know, probability, something, something,

and that's why these organs are so readily available. They don't have to come from prisoners. What do you say about that? Well, yeah, a good point. In fact, the year they set up their voluntary donation scheme, I think it was in 2010. As I recall, the number of donations were, it was on the website,

with something like 5,000. And so we estimate that it's a minimum of 60,000 transplants are being done yearly. So the 5,000 donated organs doesn't exactly match. Right. I'm sure your listener, or you know, too, is that the culture in China is such that people like to die with their organs intact. So that's very much a cultural bias to Gates said.

Can I just make one quick point about the fact that I represented thousands of Canadians of origin in Asia and China when I was in Parliament for 27 years? And I assure you I have the utmost respect for them. And when I often, I was thinking about this this morning, because you were having attacks on Canadians of origin in Asia, family origin in China. And it's absolutely terrible this is happening. They didn't start the COVID. They have nothing to do with this taking of organs from the community.

I think back to the First Second World War, when both in your country and in Canada, we seized the Japanese Canadians and put them in intern camps, seized their fishing boats and the like. Turns out, in the case of Canada, there wasn't a single one Japanese Canadian that was actually siding with the Japanese army. And we were trying to help the people of China.

We're not trying to create incidents like we see on CNN where somebody's being pushed down on the street. 90-year-old man, you probably saw it. Oh, yeah, that was horrible. That was horrible. This has got to stop, and you and I, I'm sure, feel exactly the same way about this. This is insufferable that anybody would pick on

somebody of origin in Asia because of COVID. Yeah, it's scary. It sucks for my brother-in-law because he's dating right now, which is already hard when it's COVID, right? And so now he's going online and he'll say, man, there's a lot of girls that say, like, no Asians in their profile, or like no China virus Asian.

And they say, you know, it's just really, racism, online dating. So I tell him, like, report the profiles and he goes, why bother? I mean, those people exist. At least I know that they're there now. I don't want them to hide it. I don't want to match with them and then find out later they're racist. And I'm like, oh, God. Yeah, it's horrific. But let's go back to the idea that these are not voluntary organ donors, right? If there's 5,000 donors throughout the country, then all of them have to die each month in order for the transplant numbers to match up, which obviously isn't happening. The question that arises,

where do the organs come from? Obviously, we've solved that mystery, or you have. But how does the matching percentage work with donors, right? Like, it's not just the same blood type. The percentages are quite low that you and I, for example, if I wanted to give you a kidney because you're such a nice guy and so am I. The odds are really low that I can do that. It's not just like, oh, you're AB negative blood?

Great, so am I, here's a kidney. There's a lot of factors that go into this and they usually don't match. In a labor camp in China, or now I'm sure in these concentration camps, or they call him re-education camps for the Uighurs over in Xinjiang, it's a doctor that comes to see him every three months. And they do, as I mentioned before, they do the eye and the blood and everything else. This is all done to determine tissue type and blood type. As far as we were able to determine, it's only the blood type and the tissue type they use. They enter that in a log saying that Jordan has X, Y, blood type, X, X, Y, tissue type. And they have huge numbers of people in these organ banks so that when somebody comes for an organ, they go on the computer and they find out who's got the same tissue type and blood type at you. Then they bring the organ from the poor victim, so-called donor. They bring it to you in Shanghai and they test it to see if you're a match for it. As I gave you an example of somebody who was tested four times, I guess they do it in a petri dish or something and they said this guy's kidney is not compatible in yours. We'll get three

more. So this is what they're capable of doing under this despicable system they have. And it's not as if it's a huge amount of matching problems. It's pretty rough. And they don't really care whether or not you have to come back. They'd rather you didn't have to come back because they have to, I guess they have to replace the organ. But your health is not a big concern of the surgeons who are making huge amounts of money out of this in China. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, David Kilgore. We'll be right back. And now back to David Kilgore on the Jordan Harbinger show. The organ matching, by the way, I did look this up. Even siblings have like a 25% chance of matching. That's like full sibling, not, you know, step-parent. And so usually just

general public, it's like a 10-to-one match. So if you had, let's say they did only come from death-row inmates, which is what I think China was claiming before, the Communist Party of China was claiming before, if you have 10,000 death-row inmates, you'd only match a thousand transplants annually. They're doing 30, 60,000, right? So they're doing 30 to 60 times that number. That means it literally cannot just be death row inmates being killed for organs. And it sounds like they're not even trying to sort of float that one anymore. They've given up trying to sell that narrative to the West. There's been a thousand X increase in Koreans going to China for organ transplants. But I wondered, is that like a thousand times one or two or is this tens of thousands of people going to China

for organ transplants? We said 60,000 transplants, but how many are from abroad and how many are domestic? Well, that's very, very difficult to learn. We've gone around, as I think I mentioned to you, to something like 50 countries now, the two of us, David Maydust and I. And we've discovered that some countries are sending a lot of people, other countries, I hasten to say Australia to its great credit. I'm told by one of the Deputy Health Ministers in Australia that virtually nobody from Australia is going now because they know where the organs are coming from, whereas the argument would be that people in other countries, South Korea, you mentioned, don't know where they're coming. Interestingly, Taiwan used to send a lot of people to China for organs because of hepatitis

problems in Taiwan and so on. So they've actually got the best piece of legislation anywhere in the world now that bans organ tourism. And if a doctor is involved in one of these things, sending people to China, he or she can lose their license. So Taiwan is actually the model country, even though it's right near China, to stop this. Japan is the most, one of the most troubled by South Korea. I'm also very, we've been to both those countries. I think South Korea is making some progress, but I'm sorry to say that Japan is not making any progress and stopping Japanese nationals going to China for organs. And you've brought this to their attention

and they just kind of said, thanks, but we don't really want to know, goodbye. Actually, I even met with the president of South Korea after he lost the election five or six years ago. So, yeah, we've talked to a lot of people, but I know I should praise people who deserve praise. The Taiwanese deserve the most praise. In Israel, we mentioned that earlier,

the health insurance there would actually send people. you mentioned is pay the price to go, pay for the organs, do everything. Then Dr. Jacob Labby, a heart surgeon who's one of my heroes, discovered that one of his patients was going. He was going to have his operation two weeks from the date. And the penny dropped for Dr. Lavy, and he said, it's obviously going to kill somebody for you to have your heart on that day. So Lavy got the law change. They banned any Israeli from going to China. They cut out all the payments, of course. Israel is now a real leader on this issue. It would be pretty tough for Israel to say, hey, you know what, we're going to turn a blind eye when it comes to organ harvesting,

given the Holocaust. I mean, that would be the height of hypocrisy. Wouldn't be a huge departure for a government to be hypocritical, but, man, that would be a tough pill for the public to swallow, I think, in Israel and anywhere else, but especially there. Let me give Dr. Lavi another plug. He was the head of the Ethics Committee for the, it's called the Transplantation Society, which is the international group that's supposed to ensure ethical transplants and Dr. Labby resigned from it because he felt that the Transmentation Society was not sufficiently interested in the issues that we're talking about right now. They think that by, they put it, engaging with the government of China, they'll get them to stop it, but there's

been no stopping. It's just been going exactly the other direction. And the Transmentation Society, I'm sorry to say, very sorry to say, gets no credit for trying to, they do nothing but make fun of those of us who are criticized us for trying to bring some light to this thing. And they don't want, They don't bother reading anything we've written. And the recent report in London, you probably know about by Sir Jeffrey Nees from the Warch Crimes Tribunal, 660-page report they just came out with. They said that they have no doubt that this is happening to the Falun Gong community in China, and they're about to start studying what's happening to the Uyghurs.

They are studying what's happening to the Uyghurs, and I'm sure they're going to come to the same conclusion. I mean, I understand why people don't want to read 660 pages of horrible nightmare fuel, but also it's not something you get to ignore when you're in a position of power. I mean, that's kind of the reason that you're sitting there in the first place, right? So this is a win-win for the Chinese Communist Party, right? Dangerous in their mind, political dissidents are being executed or imprisoned while their organs create a very comfortable revenue stream for hospitals, surgeons, like you said, the whole organ industrial complex. Presumably many important Chinese officials are receiving organs as well, right, and anybody in their family. I mean, it's really got to be kind of

of a tempting thing to keep going because it's just a ton of money. Do you have any idea how much money we're actually talking about? Like, is this like in the billions of dollars? We, David Maydis did some rough calculations and he estimated it brings in, this was two or four years ago, about five or six billion dollars a year. Most of that appears to be paid out in fees. Surgeons get so much for this operation, so much for that. The pilots get so much for a flight from A to B. Nurses, hospitals get fees. Everybody gets fees. But it comes to about five or six billion a year. It's almost enough to finance their whole health system. Wow. And I find that hard to believe, but it certainly helps pay for their health system

and the hospitals and for a huge, of course, huge population. But it's something that we have got to create enough pressure in America, Canada, and everywhere else in the world to stop it, the least we can do in places like California or Canada is we can pass a loss. saying that Canadians cannot go to, you don't even have to name China. You can just say, you cannot go and buy an organ. Anyway, you don't have to name the country because there's only one country where it happens.

So you can leave China completely out of the picture. There's lots of recorded phone calls and sort of hidden footage from people. So this isn't some random document leak or anything like that, right? We had people calling, saying they were trying to buy an organ to this hospital or that hospital across China.

And in some hospitals, people would say, yes, we have organs, what do you want? And they would say, Have you got Falun Gong organs? And we've got people recorded as saying, yes, we have Falun Gong organs available. We got independent interpreters because we don't speak the language

and we had to be absolutely careful. Yeah, no kidding. Because if we would be caught on anything, our credibility would disappear. So we were extremely careful of what we said. When we say 60,000 minimum number of transplants per year, we're certain it's a lot more than that. But we thought we'd be very cautious

in everything we said, and we are. But no, it's still going. And in fact, it's growing. I'm sure it's growing. So it looks a little something like this, right? Like I am sick. I call a Chinese, or I have some agent call a Chinese hospital, and I say, hey, they say it's going to take me three years to get a liver here or a kidney here.

Do you have a Falun Gong kidney? They say, oh, I'm sure we do, because odds are they do if they've got tens of thousands of those people in a roster somewhere, it's going to take you three days. Or one recorded call that I heard, they said, we'll get you a liver from a living person within 12 hours. And this is like a hospital official saying that. Now, I'm open to the idea that hospital officials exaggerate a little so they can get business, especially if it's for profit. But if you say 12 hours, it can't be 12 months. It can't even probably be 12 days. It has to be that same week at the very least because otherwise you're going to have people who say,

hey, I have to, I have to leave. I don't even have the ability to stay here long enough to wait for it. And then I saw that China admitted that these calls, the Chinese government admitted that these calls were legit. They made a documentary with these same officials who were caught on the phone saying, oh, I was misunderstood. It was very obvious that they were not misunderstood. I mean, I speak Chinese. I understand what they were saying. But further, these recordings and the transcripts of the recordings were certified by official translators. I mean, it's plain as day. You can't really say you were misunderstood when you say, yeah, I can get you a liver from a living person within 12 hours. I mean, there's only so many ways that that could be interpreted.

Well, it's interesting because the front page story in our media here in Canada, yesterday was a report from the government of China explaining how they're shipping Uighurs across China to make them work in forced labor factories. And usually they call anything like this as a lie, it's anti-China lies, this kind of nonsense they use. The only problem was this came from the government and the report was leaked out. So what do they do? They say, oh, this was a personal opinion by somebody in the government. I mean, this is how feebly, I mean, how intellectually inert they are in the kind of arguments that they've been making today. And the ambassador here in Canada has just been talking the most utmost nonsense.

I'll give you an example of how bad they are. When David Madison and I did our first report, and then we wrote a book, it came out in 2009. The embassy here in Ottawa put out a statement saying that we had made a terrible mistake. We had got two cities in the wrong provinces. You know, it's a 250-page book, and we'd got two cities in the wrong provinces. Those were the only mistakes they could find in the book. That's how feeble they are in pointing out people who are trying to tell the truth. And I hasten to say we're both volunteers.

We happen to want to try to save lives in China. That's our motivation. So we got made two mistakes in the report. And since that time, they have never put out anything that had any intellectual weight in it at all, including today. Some of the calls, I got to say, are pretty disturbing. The way they recorded the calls is kind of genius, right? They use some social engineering and they pose as party officials. And they get these high-level officials to kind of admit,

what's going on. And there's one call that's really gross with this guy saying, he's sort of laughing. He's like, yeah, they call me the butcher. And the person says, why are you doing this? And he said, so what? We sold his organs. Who cares? They're just body parts. And then I think later in the call, he threatens the caller and says, shut up or I'll take your organs too. And I mean, it's just like so sociopathic. And I hate to diagnose someone from a phone call, but I think we can safely say that somebody who sells organs and is so cavalier about it and then threatens to take the organs of somebody else who's questioning him is clearly not right in the head. A little footnote, Jordan, to that is that Dr. Maya Matapilova, who's a scientist at MIT,

has pointed out that all of the people who have been checked for their organs in Xinjiang are only Muslims. In other words, they've gone through the whole population in this large area, and they've only tested the Muslims, and it's now about half the population in that province are now people who are non-Hun Chinese, but they've only tested the Muslims. And of course, Ethan Gutman has pointed out that these are the people that are subject to having their organs taken. And in fact, he and another Uyghur has pointed out that there are signs in the airports in Chinchang in Arabic. Can you imagine?

Saying that this way, if you're here to get organs, why aren't the people from the Middle East making a horrible fuss about this too? I wish they would. They could do it. And I'm delighted to tell you that we had a thing at the University of Toronto the other day. with the Muslim Students Association, and we had excellent speakers, and the thing went extremely well. And it looks like, thank goodness, the Muslim community in Canada is now really getting behind on this issue. Certainly the students are. I hope this will happen in the States and anywhere where there are Muslim communities, which I'm sure is all across the world. Well, a lot of the,

to be fair, a lot of the Chinese people that I know here in California and around the United States in Canada are also very upset about this, right? I mean, it makes, if I found out that the United States had some sort of concentration camp for, let's say, Muslims as well. I mean, I would not take that sitting down at all. I'm pissed off enough about Guantanamo Bay, which is at least, well, let's not even go there. I know about that. I know about that. Yeah. I mean, I'm pissed off about that enough at this point. I realize it has a certain purpose, but we're not harvesting the freaking organs from the people that go there, and it's not random people based purely on their ethnicity. You know, it's just there's so much wrong with this. The signs in Arabic are very

retelling. Actually, someone had brought this up in a previous report that I'd read as well, that since China is this quick and dirty place for organ transplants, especially for wealthy people in developing countries such as Africa and the Middle East, this actually inhibits the development of these countries' own programs for organ transplants and medical care. Because, you know, why bother developing something ethical at home in Sudan or, and I hate to name Sudan? I'm just throwing it out there because it's in Africa. Sorry, Sudanese. Why have developed something ethical in the Middle East or Africa, if I can just, look, I'm in the 1% I live in these countries, I'm just going to fly to China and get my organ needs taken care of. I don't need to sit

here and painstakingly develop a national program or international program for organ donation and transplants and the hospitals and the doctors, screw it. All the elites that make the decisions in my country, we fly to China. So it actually does harm to those countries medical programs and harms the people in those countries who need urgent medical care. Very well said. Let me just add to that that every Thursday at 3 o'clock, we now have a group that meets in front of the Chinese embassy here in Ottawa, and their multi-faith group, Christians, Muslim Jews, we meet there every Thursday, and we hold up signs saying stop the Uyghur genocide. I'll add to that that we had several of us from different faiths met at a Volkswagen dealership here in Canada. The other day was signs up saying stop making Volkswagen cars with forced labor in Shinshan, because They have several plants, I believe, in Chinchang, to make these Volkswagen cars. It's not just cars. It's all manner of product. Textiles, garments, a huge range of projects.

And if we just do a little, if all of us would stand up for our principles and do some protesting about supply chains using forced labor, we could probably get a lot of companies to stop buying their units and maybe even put some people back to work in the U.S. and Canada and a whole range of other countries. You know, to hear Volkswagen is added again, this is, you know what Volkswagen did during World War II, right? They were known for having employed slave labor from Jews and Roma and everybody who was in the concentration camps to make those cars then. How have they not been extreme, like the most vigilant company in the world when it comes to slave labor making their stuff?

You would think they would go, okay, we're not getting caught up in this again. And here we are. It's like that's the brand name that sticks out with the Uyghurs is they're making freaking Volkswagen. It's unbelievable. It really is. Absolutely agree with you. And we went into the dealership afterwards to explain what we were doing. And the person we spoke to, he said he didn't know about it until the day prior to what we were talking about. And then he said, we don't make any cars in Canada. They make all the cars that are Volkswagen sold in Canada, made in the States or somewhere else,

but not a single car in Canada seems to have a single component that's a Volkswagen part. But they're making them in Shinsang, China right now. And there's very little doubt that they're using forced labor to do so. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest David Kilgore. We'll be right right back. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. I know this episode is a tough listen. It really is a horrifying and disgusting set of crimes here. If you're looking to support the show, all the codes and deals and URLs and all that stuff, you need to get the discounts. They're all in one place. They're at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please do consider supporting

those who support us. Don't forget, we have worksheets for today's episode. If you want some of the practicals and the main takeaways from each episode, those are in the worksheets, and the link to those is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. And now for the conclusion of our episode with David Kilgore. I lived in Germany for a while, and it's like the most embarrassing thing for them that they had anything to do with the Nazis and the concentration camps, and everyone is just horrified by it. It's universal. I haven't met one person. Even when I met skinheads who are like white supremacist kind of a-holes in Germany. Even they were like, yeah, but we're not Nazis.

Those people were terrible. We just want fewer, you know, they have their rationalization. So even the skinheads in Germany are like, yeah, at least we're not Nazis. And meanwhile, Volkswagen's like, slave labor, you say? Where can we get that? Oh, yeah, we didn't learn our lesson the first time. And it's just, like, so shocking that it's just, it's several levels beyond disappointing to the point where you just go, is this completely hopeless?

And that leads me to, I guess, one of my final questions here is like, Is it completely hopeless? This seems like there's nothing we can do about this. In the China report, I'm going to quote here from the China Commission. It says the China Tribunal, excuse me, forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale, and Falun Gong practitioners have been one and probably the main source of organ supply. The concerted persecution and medical testing of the Uyghurs is more recent, and it may be that evidence of forced organ harvesting of this group may emerge in due course. By the way, this reports a couple years old. The tribunal has had no evidence that the significant infrastructure

associated with China's transplantation industry has been dismantled, and absent a satisfactory explanation as to the source of readily available organs concludes that forced organ harvesting continues till today. Governments and any who interact in any substantial way with the People's Republic of China should now recognize that they are, to the extent revealed above, interacting with a criminal state. That's a bold statement, right? And this isn't from like some blanche. Lager. Who is the China Tribunal? Jeffrey Nice. He was the on the War Tribes Tribunal. He's

now looking at the Uyghur evidence, by the way, Jordan. We had a huge event. 26 countries were represented. I forget how many hospitals and 245 people in Australia last week. And he was on. He came on and he spoke about the report that you just quoted from. He also added that he's now

looking at the evidence on the Uyghurs. I have not much doubt that he's going to find the main so-called donor group is now the Uyghur population because they're running out of Falun Gong. And everybody keeps saying what we've got to do is go after the supply chain. It's pretty hard to move. But if we get people having boycotts on, say, Volkswagen or many other products that are using forced labor in China, maybe things will start to move. And how can you be a company of reputation? And go to the No China Products website. Maybe some of your

viewers have done that. And you can also see that more and more people are saying, this company is producing stuff in China with forced labor. You've got to stop it. People in U.S. and Canada and Europe start to do this and elsewhere. I think we will find that people will move pretty stop to maybe stop using forced labor. How did you get interested in this? It seems kind of like a random, it's a random hobby, you know, random cause for a Canadian prosecutor that doesn't speak Chinese or anything like that, right? Well, I was secretary for Asia Pacific government for a couple of years,

and I went to China in the 90s, and I'll never forget this as long as I live. And I got there, I had an official minder you'd know about this. and I was taken to the commission for minorities, and there, as you probably know, there are 54 minorities in China, and one of them, of course, is the Uyghurs. I'll never remember getting to this guy's office in Beijing, and he had on a Tibetan clothing,

but I think he even had a cap on, and he tried to convince me that the Tibetans were being treated really well, and they were happy as clams and so on, just as they're now trying to convince people that the Uyghurs are happy, that they're enjoying and they're dancing in these, and they occasionally get a visitor, and that everything is just going wonderfully for them.

So that was my first exposure to the big lie, and of course, the coin of phrase, and I've heard so many big lies since from the officials for the government of China. I can't tell you how many I've heard. I do, as you would appreciate, one thing that prosecutors are supposed to be good at is separating fact from fiction. And many, many people have worked on this, including you, this issue. So I think we're finally making some, we're trying to make some headway now, and I hope that your viewers will call her congressman or call her member of parliament and will say

what on earth is going on and what are you doing about it. And I hasten to say, by the way, that the U.S. Congress has been terrific about this on a bipartisan. So that surprises me. I got to say, like, you never hear that these days. Do tell. Well, they passed a bipartisan. The House did. It was 493 to 3 or something, the boat. And it's now going to the Senate, but it's going to basically saying there's an onus on anybody bringing something in from China to prove to the customer. U.S. customs, that it was not made with forced labor. And if they can't do that, the product doesn't come into the country. Maybe your unemployment rate would go down quite quickly if that happened, too. Well, yeah, I mean, but we love our cheap crap, don't we, here in the United States? And our

expensive crap, for that matter, but we love cheap crap. I mean, you can't even spell America without made in China goods coming in. And when I was a kid, it was made in Taiwan. And before that, I don't even know. I guess things were made everywhere else. But I just, first of all, we consume less, which is great. But I do worry about prices going through the roof for people that can't afford everything that they want slash need, you know? Well, the short answer to that is that Canada has lost 600,000 manufacturing jobs since China joined the World Trade Organization. And I'm not mistaken, you've had 54,000 factories closed since the same time. I forget how many million Americans have lost their jobs. I think it's more than 20 million. So if we could get these 20 million,

and jobs back. And let me give you the example of Montreal's garment industry. We had 40,000 people in Montreal working in the garment industry when we signed the multi-fiber agreement. I was in the government when we did this to my great shame. Basically, all those jobs are gone now, mostly to China. So the fact is that America can produce stuff and Canada can produce stuff and maybe we start producing some of our own stuff. I mean, I'm no expert on bringing manufacturing back. There's parts of me that say, hey, economics, this and that. I wouldn't even have a problem with this. If things that were made in other countries, namely China, were made by people who were getting paid at least a reasonable amount of money, or any money for that matter, to make it, right?

Like, then it's just capitalism, and it's hard for me to sort of argue with that. There are arguments with that. Don't get me wrong, but that's a different show. But when you're saying this is made by a 12-year-old girl who is handcuffed to a sewing machine and has to pee in a bucket, and I'm not exaggerating. I mean, you hear about this and you see hidden footage of this, then I don't even understand how you can enjoy something like that. Like there's just a non-zero chance that something I'm wearing right now was made by a small child

that had no choice in the matter. And that sort of makes me feel sick. Well said, Jordan, just can I add to that something on CNN last week and on BBC about they found some victims, Uyghurs, and they talked about these horrible, horrible rapes that were taking place in these camps. That's even more than what you're saying. And to think that this is happening by the guards in this wretched concentration camp. But this is happening. That's enough. I think that's why the opinion seems to be changing in the last week or two, because these programs had such an impact and so many people saw them. And it was so hideous the way these women were being treated. They're now refugees, by the way, I hasten to say. I remember a case, I listened to a Uyghur woman in Washington, talk about the fact

when she got to Turkestan with her triplets, aged about six months. They took her triplets away from her. They threw her in a camp, and they kept her there for, I forget how many months. One of her triplets died while she was in the camp. For why, died why? There were marks in their necks. I mean, this is beyond anything imaginable. This is hideous. And this is, people don't buy what you were saying about the jobs and so on in the products.

And the regime has got significantly worse under Xi Jinping, as I'm sure you know. So maybe it'll encourage him to stop doing it. And you know what his contribution to all of this is? He said, have no mercy. I'll have no mercy for the Uyghurs. This is what this guy is doing. President for Life. This is a horrifying scenario.

And look, now we're getting kind of off the initial topic here of organ trafficking. But I want to say thank you very much for your work. Thank you very much for coming on the show. This is a nauseating yet fascinating, but also just mostly nauseating topic to cover. But you do it well. And I'm really, really grateful for your time. Because again, as they said earlier in the show, I basically called you before your coffee probably had kicked in really early one morning, and here we are, because the last

guy I tried to do this show with turned out to be a Falun Gong member, which doesn't mean he's lying, but I want to get credible sources, and you are absolutely that. Oh, thank you, Jordan. You do a terrific job, by the way. Congratulations. Thank you. I hope you'll be on CNN one day soon, too. Well, we'll see. Hopefully not wearing a blindfold. Thanks, David. Thank you. We've got a trailer for our interview with Bill Browder. He was one of the first first investors in Russia after the fall of the Iron Curtain and became a thorn in the side of

Vladimir Putin, who to this day has him looking over his shoulder after he uncovered a massive fraud inside the Russian government. This is one of our most popular episodes. So if you haven't heard that yet, check out episode three of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Making 10 times your money is the financial equivalent of smoking crack cocaine. And once you do it once, you just want to repeat it over and over and over and over again. It was completely, absolutely wild west, chaos, gold rush type of situation. The companies were run by these oligarchs, and these oligarchs said, well, we might as well just cheat everybody on everything. And so while I was sitting there down 90%, they were going to steal my last 10 cents on the dollar. I took a decision which nobody had ever taken before,

which was to take on one of the oligarchs. I did. I fought back, big time. And I ended up with 15 bodyguards. There was a lead car, a lag car, a side car, three-armed guys in my car. When we got close to the home, they would go and scout the rooftops for snipers. They would look for bombs under the cars and secure the stairwells and then escort me into the apartment. Then I had two guys with automatic weapons sitting in my living room. It was very, very intense, very scary. And after that, I hired a young lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky to help me investigate it. Sergei and I exposed the crime. The same people who Sergey testified against arrested him

and then tortured him to try to get him to withdraw his testimony. And they thought, you know, here's a guy. He buys his Starbucks in the morning. He wears a blue suit and a white shirt and a red tie. And he works in the tax practice of an American law firm. He'll buckle in a week. And it turns out that they got him wrong completely. He's the most principled guy in the world.

He was really a man of steel. On the morning of November 17th at 745 a.m., I got the call from Sergei's lawyer, and it was the most horrifying, life-changing, soul-destroying news that I could have ever gotten. And if you want to hear more about how Bill Browder took on one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin, and continues to fight for change, check out episode three of the Jordan Harbinger show. Oof, tough listen, honestly. Again, I want to reiterate that this is about forced Oregon trafficking. done by the Chinese Communist Party. It has nothing. Very little to nothing to do with the Chinese people. In fact, the Chinese people are suffering the most from this. It is their organs that are being stolen from them by their government and sold. There's a lot of evidence about this in the reports online.

The Falun Gong, for example, they were systematically subjected to examination, blood tests, CT scans, ultrasounds that were inexplicable. They were being tortured and imprisoned at the same time. David has personally heard these stories. They are eerily consistent. The Uyghurs are also being subjected to similar testing prior to being put into concentration and re-education camps. It is absolutely horrifying. I think this is, it's one of those issues that our future generation, our kids and our grandkids are going to say, what were you doing when you heard about the Uyghurs in China? What were you doing when this was happening? Did you do anything about it? Were you learning about it? Were you hearing about it? FYI, the investigators, David Kilgore and Mattis,

they received the 2009 Human Rights Award by the German-based International Society for Human Rights. were nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize in 2010. So this investigation has been allowed it as credible. This is not some sort of crackpot weirdo conspiracy theory that you would find in the back corner of the internet on some blogs. Arthur Kaplan, a bioethicist at NYU, New York University stated, it is not up for discussion as to whether murder for parts is taking place in China. It is now just a question of whether we're going to continue to put up with it. The China Tribunal concludes that those who interact with the People's Republic of China in a substantial way should now recognize that they are interacting with a criminal state. Forced organ harvesting is fact to those

that look thoroughly at the data. These crimes are so new, so vile that we don't want to look. I had a very similar take when I heard. I was skeptical intellectually. I was hesitant to look because it so badly distorts my view of the degree of evil doctors and human beings are capable of. This is where I'm at with this. By the way, I did ask out of morbid curiosity, how much organs cost because I was curious. If you're stealing organs and selling them, what do they cost? A kidney goes for about $62,000. These are older prices, so, you know, they may have gone up. I don't know. A lung is about $160,000. A heart is about $145,000. I found it interesting that a lung in which you have two was more expensive than a heart in which you only have one. It just goes to

show you maybe there's more problems with lungs than hearts. I'm not sure. Either way, in December 2018, the China Tribunal issued an interim judgment and said, quote, the tribunal's numbers are certain, unanimously, and sure beyond a reasonable doubt, that in China, forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practiced for a substantial period of time involving a very substantial number of victims. They banned some of this in 2008, actually, because of the Olympics, but you can still get this done at transplant centers. I did research and hired a researcher to confirm this, and there are operating rooms at hospitals in use 24 hours a day at transplant Hospital specifically for this.

Cheery, right? Dark. But I really thought this was an important and fascinating topic at the same time. If you've made it this far, thank you so much for listening. And a big thank you to David Kilgore. Links to all his stuff will be in the website in the show notes. Please use our website links if you buy anything from any of our guests that does help support the show. Worksheets for the episode are in the show notes.

Transcripts for the episode are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview going up on our YouTube channel atjordanharbinger. slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or hit me on LinkedIn. I'm also teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same systems, software, and tiny habits that I use over at our six-minute networking course. That course is free. There's nothing for sale. I don't need your credit card info. The course is at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Create those relationships before you need them. Most of the guests you hear on the show, they subscribe to the course, they contribute,

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