The Jordan Harbinger Show - 499: Preparing a Polyamorous Protection Plan | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

You're in a relationship with someone who's in an open marriage and all parties consent -- for now. But you want to be sure you don't get stuck with your state's tricky alien of affection law that could ruin your life if someone changes their mind. Aside from documenting all communication, how can you best prepare a polyamorous protection plan should your love triangle get bent out of shape and leave you and your property legally in peril? We'll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/499 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: How can you best prepare a polyamorous protection plan should your love triangle get bent out of shape and leave you and your property legally in peril? [Thanks again to attorney and friend Corbin Payne for helping us with this one!] Your intense, old-fashioned dad doesn't approve of your brother's girlfriend, which makes the arrival of their first child (and his first grandchild) somewhat bittersweet. On top of all this, he's hurt he was the last to find out. What can you do to facilitate communication between your dad and brother so this doesn't sour what should really be a happy occasion for the family? How do you remain professional and open to networking when you've got annoying, creepy, and clueless clients abusing your business relationship as an unwelcome excuse to pursue something more intimate? With some of our episodes including less-than-complimentary critiques about the governments of North Korea and China, are we ever worried about being targeted by their agents, and would we ever travel to either country again? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my Consigliary in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission on the show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show on Friday as we give advice to you and answer

listener questions, the rest of the week we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. And if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we have episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes organized by topic that'll help you get a taste of everything we do here on the show or help your friends and family get a taste of everything that we do here. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start to get started. This week we had David Kilgore talking about,

and I can't believe I'm about to say this out loud. Forced Oregon trafficking. This is exactly what it sounds like. It's horrific. This is something that's really happening. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first until I looked into all of these investigators and human rights reports and the UN.

It's just horrifying. That's not one for kids in the car, but it is fascinating. We also had Rob Dirt at Pro Skater. He's the guy you see on MTV whenever you turn on MTV because his show ridiculousness is there 85% of the time. He's actually a brilliant, very driven entrepreneur. He's not just a guy who falls over on skateboards or laughs at other people falling over on skateboards.

He has a very, very sharp business mind, and we get into the weeds on a lot of that. I think that was a great episode, especially if you're interested in anything he's doing that isn't, again, him, you know, blowing something up or driving a car really fast off of the ramp. So make sure you've had to listen to everything that we created for you here this week.

You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. That makes it a lot easier. And if you can, include the state that you live in, state and country, that helps us give you more detailed advice. So if there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with,

or if you need a new perspective on life, love, work, what to do about your schizophrenic mom, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous. So Gabe, this is episode 499. Obviously, the next episode will be 500.

That's how that works. A big milestone for us here on the show. And many people probably know that I had like 700 episodes in a previous show. And I have to say, this episode, these 500 episodes went a hell of a lot faster. both in reality and in my mind, than the first 500 of my last show

or the first 700 or even the first bit of any media that I've ever done. And I love that because it's been an incredible transition to this new show, coming out of the ashes, being on top again, both in terms of iTunes rank and just my own spirits, right, and dealing with all this. But really, this is just the start of what I have planned for this show

and for my career at age 41. And I think about it now, like 20s to 30s, I didn't know what was going on. I was in school from the majority at a time. 30 to 40, I'm like, all right, I get it, I got what I'm doing, I'm on a roll. Now I've got 40 to 50 and even 50 to 60 to really just crank out what I hope is some of my best work before I become old and irrelevant. I don't know. Hopefully that's, hopefully I leave them wanting more. So I'm super proud and grateful to all of you for listening and for being

a part of our family here, especially on Feedback Friday. Gabe, I know you feel the same. The messages, the reviews from the past month were really next level. So thank you for writing in. Thank you for sharing your stories with us. Thank you for telling us what you think of the show. It really does mean a lot to all of us here. And we've got the doozies as usual, Gabe. So let's go. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a relationship with a polyamorous man who is married to a bisexual wife. They have an open marriage and she is openly seeking a girlfriend. I am currently his only other partner. There's open communication among all three of us. I have saved and emailed myself a Facebook post with a timestamp, where she stated that she knows about my

relationship with her husband and accepts me, thanks to your advice to always document, document, document. I'm not sexually involved with her. I see it more as a sister wife situation. The thing is, I live in North Carolina where his wife could file for alienation of affection. If she did, I could lose my house, my car, and any other assets to her. I could also lose my job, and he could lose his. The Facebook post makes for a loose case that she's okay with our relationship. But what else can I do to legally protect myself if, for some reason, she ever turns negative and tries to claim alienation of affection or something similar, signed trying to ride the Polly Trolley without getting naughty, sloppy, or melancholy.

Did you just wrap that? I feel like you just wrap that. I figure I'd spit some bars on Feedback Friday. All right. Well, fair enough. Anyway, look, super interesting question. We've heard from Polly folks on the show before, but I don't think we've done. we've ever talked about the legal considerations involved in polyamory, which for those of you

who've never even heard that word, what would you say, Gabe? Is that just like people with multiple in more than one relationship at once? Or with multiple, in one big relationship with multiple people at once? I think it's basically the practice of engaging in several multiple romantic, usually sexual relationships, but with the consent of all the people involved. So nobody's being kept in the dark. It's not like their affairs going on. It's like all out in the open more than one partner. Right. Okay. So this is definitely a timely topic, especially as polyamory and open relationships and ethical non-monogamy more broadly. This is becoming more and more popular. And this is really a legal question. So you best believe we hit up our boy Corbin Payne,

excellent attorney and friend of the show to make sure we had a good grasp of the relevant statutes here. So first of all, alienation of affection. Alienation of affection is a type of law. It's actually a common law tort, but we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. I'm having PTSD flashbacks from law school right now. This is a law that allows a spouse to bring an action against a third party who has damaged their marriage. It's part of a larger class of so-called heart balm torts, which are civil actions that a person can bring to seek monetary compensation for the end of a romantic relationship. Think of it like a homewrecker statute, which is something I totally just made up, by the way. So don't try and Google that.

that might sound silly and outdated, and I think that it is, frankly, which is why alienation of affection torts they're actually really rare these days. Most states have repealed them so that they can avoid contentious lawsuits and reflect the progress that we've made gender-wise in our society in the past hundred years. But six states still have them on the books, including North Carolina, where you live. And in the state of North Carolina, there actually have been some pretty hefty awards granted in cases like this. Even though they can be vague and hard to prove, sometimes just, and usually, in fact, just the threat of an alienation of affection suit, that can be enough to create leverage during divorce negotiations since court documents are public

record. Most people don't want a lawsuit like this, tarnishing their relationship, their reputation. My guess is there are a decent number of people out there who've gotten to keep the timeshare or the boat or the dog or the custody of the kids because their ex didn't want them to sue the person that they were getting it on with during their marriage, right? So you're not totally wrong to be concerned here. These lawsuits, they're a real headache. And sometimes, not often, but sometimes, they do become a problem for people.

But here's the thing. If someone were to sue you under this law, they have to prove three things. One, that there was a loving and affectionate relationship between the married spouses in the first place. Two, that that relationship has been destroyed. And three, that it has been destroyed by the wrongful and intentional actions of a third party. So you. And as C. Payne explained, in cases like this, you always want to be able to use any defenses under a law

where provided either by statute or by legal opinions issued by court. So like precedent, we call that, right? Other judges have said, hey, you can't use this, you can use that. Also, you want to be able to point to any one of these three parts of the law I just mentioned and say that at least one of them, or more ideally, doesn't apply in your case. So that Facebook post that you mentioned, that's probably going to be very useful here. It was super smart. view to document that. Simply put, if your sister wife is consenting to an intimate relationship between you and her husband, then she doesn't get to turn around and call this alienation of affection. And there is a larger legal concept at work here. A fundamental principle of lawsuits is that

you can't cause your own injury and then turn around and sue somebody else for it. That's a solid defense in any case where any injury is alleged. So I would definitely continue documenting as much as you can, and maybe even create other opportunities for you to document even more evidence that this whole arrangement is on the up and up. Now, we don't have a full handle on the relationship between you and this woman, but if you're comfortable around each other, it might be worth discussing this whole situation with her on the record. Having a conversation about how she and her husband had the open marriage talk, that's how they keep the spark alive between them, how liberated their relationship is. That's a pretty solid insurance policy for you. If this could be

done over email, that would be ideal. But even a text or a DM would suffice. You don't even need to obtain a smoking gun statement from her. Like, I hereby give you full permission to bang my husband, right? You don't need that. All you need is something that shows that she was aware of your relationship with her husband and that she was open to it. Like if you told her that you and her husband were going away for the weekend and she's like, fun, that sounds nice. I'm going to go shopping. That's good evidence. That way, if she ever did bring an alienation of affection suit, it would undermine any argument that your actions were what destroyed their marriage. And look, if you guys have an open relationship, or I should say, if you guys have a good relationship, as good as you say you do,

because I don't want to confuse terms here. Maybe you do this even more directly. After you'll talk about your arrangement, you could send her a follow-up email saying, listen, I appreciate your willingness to talk about my relationship with your husband today. Honestly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the polyamorous life, and you were super helpful today. Thank you. Something like that, and then summarize the salient points of your conversation. Like, good thing that you are so understanding about me having a romantic relationship with your husband and us going on trips together. Thank you. You know, if the wife does not contradict your email and later tries to argue, hey, this is a misrepresentation, I don't think anyone's going to believe her. Like, Gabe,

if I sent you an email that said, hey, by the way, thanks for telling me on the phone that I can sleep with your girlfriend, and then we didn't talk about it at all, I would fully expect to get some kind of response from you that says, wait, what are you talking about? I don't get, I don't get the joke here. Yeah. Yeah, I'd be like, what the hell? What are you talking about? We didn't, you called me for advice about how to set up a microphone. Exactly. So any reasonable person would, including a judge and a jury. And if she does respond in the affirmative, you're basically golden. But I would try to compel a response. You don't want her to claim that you never sent the email or it was caught in her spam folder, you never had the conversation. I would have replied if I'd seen that

email, right? You want her to respond, and then you basically have a receipt. So it's great that you documented the Facebook post. I would keep doing that as much as you can. And any written communications about all this between you and her husband, emails, DMs, post anything at all, I would save that, too. If he's gone into great detail on his own about how cool his wife is with you too, that's going to help undermine any claim that you were intentionally trying to destroy their good affection and their marriage that was all on the up and up. When you pair that with the message from the wife, it really bolsters both arguments. Good point. This guy and his wife, they're basically creating her defense, her hypothetical future defense for her as long as she documents it. Right. Yeah. In addition to all that,

Corbyn's final recommendation was this. If you can get any information on the wife seeking a girlfriend of her own, that would be a great defense too. Now, look, that might be. harder evidence to grab since it's not like people usually throw that kind of thing up on the gram or whatever. But here's the thing. Since the social stigma attached to open relationships, since that's still fairly big, it's not uncommon for polyamorous people to look for partners outside the marriage on dating apps, websites, stuff like that. And look, I know this is a little bit sketchy. I know it feels a tiny bit gross, but it might be worth creating a dummy account on the relevant apps and seeing if she's on there. If she is, grab a screenshot. As Corbyn pointed out, nothing kills a claim of

adultery, quite like evidence of one's own extramarital activities. So a screenshot of her dating profile, that would show that any destruction of affection between this guy and his wife, that that was as much her fault as it was yours. And honestly, it just makes her look hypocritical in general. And judges and juries, they really don't like hypocrites. And if you need any more detailed advice or you just want some extra peace of mind, you can always book a call with an attorney in your home state. Probably a personal injury attorney, maybe a family attorney, ideally both. They'll be able to give you a more detailed view on this weird law, give you any extra tips on how you should protect yourself. So that's our advice. I got to say, though, it sounds like you're in the best

version of a polyamorous relationship where all the parties are communicating openly, communicating fairly, no one's being kept in the dark or harboring any secret resentments. But you never know what could happen, right? People change, relationships evolve. Maybe one day your sister wife, she turns on her husband for some unrelated reason and she decides to get back at him through you. Or maybe she gets into financial problems and she decides that the easiest way to solve her problems would be going after the woman who's sleeping with her husband or, I don't know, you and her husband, maybe you start to really fall in love and he starts to pull away from her a little bit and suddenly she goes from super cool and open-minded to jealous and vengeful, right? You just don't know what could happen in a romantic

relationship, especially when there are three different parties involved, each with their own unpredictable interests. Yeah, agreed. Human affairs, man. Hard to predict. Very volatile. So yeah, I wouldn't stay up at night worrying about getting hit with an alienation of affection lawsuit, but I do think that it is smart to protect yourself. No need to get obsessed. Don't let this documentation thing take over your whole life, ruin your relationship, make things super weird all the time. Just save any relevant screenshots and emails.

Store them locally and in the cloud. That way you never lose them. Try to get as much confirmation of this open relationship status and the whole thing as possible. And that's really all you can do. Beyond that, keep communicating openly with. your partner and his wife and stay on good terms with her, that's probably the best insurance. That's the best thing you can do. Good luck. You're listening to Feedback Friday here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. And now back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger show.

All right. What's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My 26-year-old brother and his girlfriend of almost a decade are welcoming their first child later this year. This is not only their first child, but also the first grandchild in the family. Most of us could not be more excited, but my 62-year-old father, he's having a more difficult time accepting this change. He's never been a huge fan of my brother's girlfriend. He thinks she's lazy because she doesn't really help out with household chores, doesn't really cook or grocery shop, and contributes very little financially. Personally, I don't think any of that stuff matters as long as my brother is happy, which he appears to be. But this dynamic is not typical in our family, which is why my dad struggles with it. He worries that she won't step up when

the baby comes. He also has it in his head that my brother's girlfriend trapped him into this situation, but my brother, he says differently. Now that my brother and his girlfriend have announced the pregnancy on social media, my dad has seen her parents' reaction and how they were told. He feels hurt that he was told last and doesn't feel that the way he was told was well thought out and planned like everyone else's was. He received a sonogram on a piece of scrapbook paper, while everyone else got personalized items like a coffee mug, a onesie, and a baseball. I've told both my dad and my brother that they need to communicate about all of this before the baby comes because I don't want the baby to be born into this drama. They have a very close, sometimes too close relationship, but they are both terrible

at communicating. My brother's afraid of my dad because my dad can be so intense sometimes. I've offered to be a mediator in their conversation, but I'm not sure that's a good idea either. What would you do in my situation? Signed, Family Drama with the Baby Mama. All right, well, this is a tough situation, and I can definitely see why all of this is so stressful for you guys. Before we dig in here, I just got to say, Gabe, there's something objectively funny about a 62-year-old man getting worked up that he wasn't told about the pregnancy in a special enough way. Like, all you guys did was show me a miraculous photograph of my very first grandchild. You didn't get me a matching onesie that says grandpa's trusty sidekick. Yeah, like, what's going on, buddy?

Totally, totally. Also, he's not exactly thrilled that they're having a kid, right? So it's like, I didn't even want you to have a baby. But also, you didn't tell me you're having a baby in a special enough way. Exactly. Like that old joke. Like, the food at this place is terrible. And such small portions.

Exactly. Anyway, at first I thought this was kind of a funny contradiction. But now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it's actually meaningful. Your dad, obviously, he has concerns about your brother's girlfriend. He's not totally sure how to feel about the baby. But he also very clearly wants to be loved and included the same way that her family is. So maybe he's just being cranky and needy by insisting that he get the same treatment as everyone else. Or maybe he's being cranky and needy because he actually does want to be part of the baby's life.

He actually really is excited or could be excited, which is an encouraging sign. But what is clear is that your dad, he probably has a lot of complicated feelings about your brother, about his wife, maybe even about himself. And because he struggles to communicate those feelings, it's just coming out as a more generalized anger. a more nebulous concern. At age 62, if you don't know how to process that stuff, that's daunting. Plus, I mean, look, I don't want to speculate here, but your dad, he might even have a point about your brother's girlfriend. It sounds like she doesn't contribute as much as your brother does.

Even you acknowledge this. So I kind of understand why your dad's concerned about how she'll act when the baby arrives. Maybe that's concerning for him because it is atypical for your family, or maybe that's concerning because it's actually concerning. She does sound a little bit lazy to me, frankly. That's all I'm going to say about that because it's totally irrelevant and beside the point. But there's also the idea that she trapped your brother, which again, it sounds like she didn't, according to the brother, but maybe, given the way she behaves in general, it's not totally

crazy to wonder if he's really in the driver's seat here. And if he isn't, yeah, I can understand why dad is upset here, even if he can be a little intense sometimes. I guess what I'm saying is, I kind of feel for the guy, even if he's being a bit of a carmudgeonly old dick right now. I got to say, I do too, on some level. I mean, how do you not worry about your child when you don't fully approve of their partner? That's a lot to ask.

Yeah, it really is. Especially in a family like this one, they sound like they're pretty enmeshed in each other's lives. Like she said, sometimes they're too close. And I mean, as a dad, I don't know if I could completely accept my son walking into a problematic situation with his partner. It's a tough pill to swallow for sure. Although, to be fair, maybe their dad is just mad that all he got was that sonogram.

and he's using that to tear down his daughter-in-law in every department, you know? Maybe he'd be more accepting if they just got him a mug that said, don't talk to me till I've had my coffee. I'm crampy. Yeah, exactly. Does this mug actually exist? Because if it doesn't, we've got to make it and send this guy one. And then say it's from the baby's mother.

I think we just solved this problem. Do we just totally solve this problem? I think we did. Yep, done. Next. All right. Anyway, I think what we're saying here is, dad and brother both have some legit points here.

No one's entirely correct, but no one's entirely wrong either. And you're right. Your dad has a right to be concerned. But ultimately, it's none of his business how his son and his son's girlfriend divvy up the responsibilities in their family. It's their relationship. He has to let them figure that out, even if he finds it distressing somehow. And if he has concerns, he needs to learn how to articulate them.

He's 62 freaking years old. Hopefully they can work them out. So to answer your question, what are you supposed to do here? well, if you really want to see your dad and brother getting along better and hopefully spare the baby from being born into a family where there's this low-key drama tension going on, then I would encourage them to start talking. But since they have a hard time communicating on their own, I like your idea of mediating a conversation between the two of them. And I know that that sounds a little daunting for you too, but you do seem like the most objective person in this situation, the more level-headed person. You can play a neutral role here, I think. and that could be very helpful.

So if you feel comfortable doing this, and you should talk to your dad and brother individually first and get their buy-in to have this conversation, then you can sit them down for a couple hours one day and help them talk. I agree, and once you guys do sit down, I would set the stage by telling your dad and your brother that you love them both a lot,

that you're not here to take sides, you're only here as a daughter and as a sister who wants to help them get along as well as possible. Tell them that you know that there's been some tension around your brother's girlfriend, around the arrival of the baby, that you know that this. topic is kind of uncomfortable. Maybe you even say that it's a little uncomfortable for you too so that

they feel like you're all in the situation together, but that you just want to give them a chance to talk about everything before the baby arrives. And then I would invite each of them to share what they're thinking, how they're feeling, what they're going through. Since your dad finds it harder to communicate in general, you might want to invite your brother to go first. Give him five, 10 minutes to state his position. Don't let your dad interrupt here. And once he's done, then you can invite your dad to respond, give him the same opportunity, the exact same treatment. And at some point, they'll start to dig into the problems between them. And things might get a little bit heated.

They might get a little emotional. That's okay. That's actually good. Stay calm. Stay neutral. If your dad flies off the handle, if he isn't really engaging with what your brother says, you can say something like, Dad, I know this is hard, but do you hear what Mark is saying right now?

He's saying that he really did want to have a baby. Do you think you can take him out his word? Something like that. And if your brother starts dismissing your dad out of hand, you can say something like, okay, okay, but Mark, can you understand why dad might have been heard about the whole sonogram thing? I think what he's saying is that he felt left out, you know, that kind of thing. Let them respond, keep validating their feelings, keep asking questions, just keep the conversation

going. Your goal here isn't to prove that one of them is right, even though you do kind of side with your brother, which I totally understand. Your job is just to make them listen to each other. Ultimately, it's up to them to decide where they want to land in their relationship, but you can help them get to a place that's fair, that's peaceful all around. My hope is that they can resolve these issues before the baby arrives, but if they can't, then I hope that they at least arrive at a place of acceptance. That's probably the only stance you should take here, by the way, wanting them to accept each other, whether they're right or wrong. If your dad can accept that your brother wants to have a child with this woman and that their relationship is not his business, I would call that

a win. And if your brother can accept that your dad has his concerns, but that he still deserves to be a part of their life, then that's progress too. And sometimes that's the best outcome you can ask for it, right? Since your dad and your brother, they're very different guys. Getting one or both them to concede here, that might be impossible. But getting them to accept each other, that's much more doable. And it might not all happen in one conversation. It might be several conversations. Might take a little bit of time. So be patient. Stay available to them. I do think it'll be worth it. That's great advice, Gabe. And that's exactly the right way to handle it. It is a big role for her to take on. But I actually think she's in a great position to fill it.

My only other advice, keep being a good friend to everyone in this situation. I know it's probably hard, but the upside is that you can be a part of everyone's life here. You can bring them together. So keep being kind to your dad, stay close to your brother, be supportive of his girlfriend, and definitely be a great aunt or uncle to the baby, especially if things between your dad and brother don't get better. When the baby's born, they're going to need some love from you too. And maybe over time you can subtly encourage your dad to be cooler to your brother and his girlfriend. Maybe you can even invite your brother to include your dad more often. I wouldn't be surprised if the baby helps heal a lot of these wounds and pulls everyone.

one back together, there's nothing like a baby to make a grandparent want to come around and be happy. And I know in our case, we had a great relationship with my in-laws and my parents. There was no drama at all. But we went from seeing my in-laws two to three times a week to at least once per day, usually more now, which is great. I mean, look, it actually eases any sort of issues because you're dealing with people so regularly and you're focused on the baby, not your petty drama. So a lot of the other stuff I think is going to sort of melt away. And like I said, it sounds like your dad actually is excited to be a grandfather. He just wants to feel like they want him involved as much as he does. So we're sending you guys good vibes here. Congrats on the addition to the family. All right,

what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I am a woman working in a male dominated business in a small city. Throughout my career, I've been faced with uncomfortable situations where I'm dealing with men who range from annoying to creepy. I've always felt that I have to act cool and put up with them because I don't want to get the reputation of being hard to work with, and I don't want to make it awkward to see these people out and about and while representing clients. I often receive calls, texts, and emails from men I've worked with wanting to catch up or go for lunch. I'm happy to take them up on the offer when there are people I enjoy working with, but sometimes these requests come from the ones who I'd rather jump out the window than spend a minute with. Sometimes I even

get emails saying, let's catch up. I can tell you're ignoring me, but then they'll inevitably turn up in a professional situation, so I have to remain cooperative. cringe. Super cringe. So how do I ignore these guys without painting myself into a corner where I'm the B word, making it harder the next time I run into them? Thanks for your help. Signed, backslap with these chaps and protect my rap or handicap this crap and avoid a mishap. Okay, so you're definitely rapping today.

It's not just my imagination. I am but a humble vessel for the sign-offs, Jordan. Also, though, oof, this is a tricky one, man. Unfortunately, this is something that women obviously deal with a lot. especially in a male-dominated industry and especially in a small city. I don't know what the deal is. I'd like to think in the last few years men have become more sensitive to these dynamics. I mean, emailing a woman saying, let's catch up.

I can tell you're ignoring me. Like read the room, dude, take the L, move on. But the guys in this woman's industry, they don't seem to care. And maybe the reason they don't care is because they know they can get away with this cringy BS. Or maybe it's because she works in this relationship-driven business and that requires her to be diplomatic, so she basically has to have a high tolerance

for unwanted attention, or she's not going to be able to do her job, which really sucks. Let's acknowledge that. She can't fully assert her boundaries or be totally upfront about how she feels because the costs to her career are too high.

That's literally the definition of a power imbalance. It's not one that she can easily correct. It's just woven into her whole job, her industry, arguably the entire world. It's not like one person can fix that overnight. So what do you do here? Well, let's talk through your options. Option one, you bite the bullet, you agree to grab sushi with these creeps to keep up appearances. The upside, you don't

compromise your reputation and your relationships. The downside, you waste two friggin' hours with somebody you'd rather jump out of the window than hang out with. You feel resentful, you feel annoyed, maybe you've compromised your integrity a little bit. Option two, you tell these creepers you're not interested in hanging out socially. The upside there, you protect your time, your sanity, feel more true to yourself, you're more in control. The downside, you risk compromising the relationship. Maybe, maybe you get a reputation as being difficult. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened to anyone, especially a woman in a so-called male-dominated industry. So either way, you pay a price, which again, totally unfair. And that is something that guys, men, generally

speaking, don't even have to think about, let alone obsess over with every single interaction. You know, if I don't want to hang out with somebody or do business with somebody, I don't have to make up a reason, otherwise I'm a cold fish. So I think that there might be a third way here. What if when one of these annoying guys asks you to hang out, you come up with a standard response that helps you walk this line a little bit better. Something like, thank you so much for the invitation. I'd love to catch up. But the truth is, I'm totally underwater with work right now, and I'm forcing myself to be more disciplined about my time outside the office. But if you want to do a quick call, I'm always happy to jump on the phone, right? So you turn the fun thing into a freaking meeting. And something like that,

something that avoids the dreaded lunch, but keeps the relationship alive on your terms. If this is one of your clients, or he's connected to one of your clients, you can always add something like, sorry I can't do lunch right now, I'm totally at capacity handling your account these days. That way, you're declining their invitation so that you can be an even better colleague to them, which is going to make it harder for them to resent you. Now, don't get me wrong, they may still manage to resent you, but you're making it harder. And look, again, I know how messed up it is that you even have to do this stupid-ass dance. Even with these responses, you still got to tread lightly, carefully.

You still have to manage egos. In a perfect world, you'd just be able to say, thanks for the invite, Jeff, not interested. And Jeff would be evolved enough to not hold that against you and talk crap about you behind your back and cost you deals. But in this imperfect world that we live in, you may just have to do this dance sometimes, just in the name of diplomacy.

I know a lot of women who've been in this exact same situation, and this kind of response has worked well for them. So I would give these scripts a try and see what happens. Treat it like a little experiment, right? See what the results are. You can always calibrate your response down the line. And who knows, maybe you'll find that declining these invitations, maybe it doesn't hurt your reputation as much as you think.

Maybe it just feels like it will since you've never been this direct before about your boundaries. So it's intimidating to think about doing it in the abstract. Right. Good point. Sometimes we imagine the worst case scenario when we think about doing something a different way, since we have no data to work with yet. We're just flying blind. So our minds want to protect us from that worst case scenario, which in your case would be getting a bad reputation, being frozen out of professional opportunities. But the likelihood of that actually happening, Jordan, especially if she's good at what she does, which it sounds like she is, that's probably much lower than she thinks. But anyway, if you do start doing this, the other thing that could happen is you become more comfortable drawing these boundaries and you just get better and better at politely declining these invitations. And as you get more comfortable with that, maybe you work your way up to being more direct. Eventually, you might say something like, thanks so much for the invitation, but I really need to focus on my work right now. Please know that I'm absolutely available to you as a colleague, as a friend. You can call me anytime. You can email me anytime. Or if you're

actually open to hanging out with one of these guys, but you don't want it to be weird, you might say something like, listen, Jeff, I'm totally down to grab a bite, but before we do, and I really hope I'm not being presumptuous here. But I just want to let you know that we'd be grabbing lunch as friends. If that's cool with you, I'm in. If not, I completely understand. It won't change anything about our working relationship. Oh, good one. I like that. I feel like that's a really nice way to say exactly what she means without being cruel or self-important, which is what she seems to be afraid of here. Right, right. It's a way to be true to herself without compromising the relationship too much. Yeah. In fact, it's almost like she's building the relationship by putting it that way.

She's basically saying, I know you have your own interests here, but I have enough respect for you to tell you how I really feel. And I'm still interested in developing a friendship with you if you are, a working relationship with you, if you are. Although, how sweet would it feel to just be like, dude, stop asking me out. I'm out of your freaking league, man. What are you even thinking? Also, we work together? Gross. That would be just so nice.

I'm sure that would feel amazing. And I'm sure that's exactly what she's thinking, but she obviously can't say that. she has to put it into her corporate workplace slash male ego translator first, so she doesn't send Jeff into a thermonuclear temper tantrum or whatever. But I think this new approach could really work wonders for her, because in her mind, up until now, it's been this binary thing. Either I lead these guys on and I protect the relationship, or I reject these guys and I burn all my bridges. She hasn't found a way to thread that needle yet because threading that needle, it would require her to be both firm and open at the same time. But what's interesting is, with a response like this, she's actually

communicating a certain degree of respect for these guys, right? A certain amount of faith that they can meet her as an equal on the same plane. And yes, of course, we're assuming here that all the men she rejects are evolved enough to handle that, that they won't be petty or vindictive. We all know that that's not always the case. There will be a few fragile egos who take their business elsewhere or, I don't know, a couple dushy guys who shut her out or whatever. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these guys, maybe even the majority of them, if they actually respond pretty well to her, especially since most guys, they're not used to being taken seriously enough to hear the truth from a woman who can say, no, thank you, but still want to have a good relationship. Yeah, I agree. You know, being this honest with

people, it goes against all of our instincts to be nice and keep things on an even keel. But the truth is, they both benefit from this kind of openness. Exactly. So if you learn to say something like that before you hang out with someone, I think your interactions with these guys could start to look very different. Not only will you avoid these painful lunches, you might actually find that your relationships improve. Good old Jeff might hear what you say and go, wow, okay, that stings a little bit, but, you know, I hear you. I appreciate that you're not making me feel like a total a hole here. Thank you for that. And he might say, thanks for letting me know where we stand. We can skip lunch. Or he might say, I totally get it. Let's grab lunch as colleagues. It's all good.

And then when you do sit down with him at P.F. Chang's or whatever, he'll probably be more likely to view you the way you want to be seen as a professional, as a friend. And that could open up a whole new kind of relationship that's more fair to these guys and way less stressful for you. And then you can keep building the relationship in that direction. And look, obviously, every situation is unique. If the CMO of a huge potential client asks you to lunch and it's kind of ambiguous as to what the tone will be, I would not hit him back the first time and go, sorry, Clyde, just not interested in grabbing lunch socially, but feel free to send me an RFP. Obviously, you still have to socialize as part of your job, which means you'll still end up in these awkward situations from

time to time. That's just the unfortunate reality. But after that first meeting, if you feel like things are getting uncomfortably ambiguous again, then you can always fall back on one of these scripts that we've been talking about. You know, something like, hey Clyde, I'm really happy that we got to sit down and talk about your marketing strategy. Before you grab dinner again, I just want to say, I'm coming as an account manager who cannot wait to help you guys develop this campaign. Just wanted to tell you that in advance so that there are no wires getting crossed.

Something like that. Again, if it's appropriate, if you feel like the timing is right. You'll have to use your instincts and your experience there, maybe even confer with your colleagues, your bosses, whenever a situation like this affects the whole team. Solid advice, Gabe. She can't eliminate this situation entirely, but she can get better at preventing it, managing it. Also, one last pro tip here that occurred to me, if you have an assistant working with you, you can accept someone's invitation to lunch and then let them know you're going to be bringing your assistant to take notes on the meeting, right? This way, they know

it's not a date because you brought Billy the intern over here snacking on a freaking club sandwich at the end of the table, hammering away on his iPad pro while you guys talk shop. Nothing says this isn't a date, quite like Billy using his 37th napkin to wipe mustard off his face, right? So I'm not saying this is always going to be easy. It won't always be smooth sailing. You might find yourself having to get a little brutal sometimes. You might break a few hearts, piss off a few bros.

Sadly, you're probably going to have to navigate these egos for the rest of your career, because that's how it be around here by now. But if you're truly great at what you do, then it'll be a lot harder for these guys to hold it against you. And I guess that's my final piece of advice. Keep working hard to be amazing. If you're a badass in your career,

if you're undeniable at what you do, it won't matter if a few narcissistic, tone-deaf man-children think you're kind of a bitch for not grabbing dim sum with them. Like, who cares? Same goes for men, too. We all need to be great, as great as we can be at what we do

so that our work starts to speak for itself. And we don't have to manage the opinions of a bunch of gibronies just so we can stay in people's good graces. But your reputation around the caliber of your work, the quality of your relationships, your personal style, that'll protect you from being dragged by any Neanderthal who can't take a respectful no for an answer.

So good luck. This is the Jordan Harpinger show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right, last but not least.

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I've heard you talk on the show about your adventures in North Korea and China. You weren't always complimentary about those countries. You often talk about the dark sides of those places, the things you didn't like. You've even interviewed and talked about defectors and activists and stuff like that. Are you ever worried that North Korean agents are going to track you down? Would you ever go back to China with all the shade you throw at the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party? Let me know what you think, signed, Looking Over My Shoulder on your behalf. This is a good question. It's something I've been asking myself a lot lately. Basically, North Korea, I'm not worried at all. I wouldn't go back, though, probably not a great idea because I've done some exposés and interviews with defectors.

Like, they might not care, but they might also care. Do I want to roll the dice on that? Not especially. I can't wait to go when the regime ends and the country opens up. I think that's going to be amazing. The truth is, we're not, you and I, we're not nearly threatening enough for the DPRK for North Korea to risk coming after us abroad. Also, their capabilities abroad are pretty limited. When they go after people, they've got to expend a lot of capital and they bring a lot of unwanted attention on themselves, going after us when we're not really doing much to them. It's not worth it. I'm also not hanging around Southeast Asia being the brother to Kim Jong-un, like the last guy who they tracked down and murdered. That whole wild tale, that's chronicled in the documentary

that you and I recommended a few months back. It's called Assassins. I highly recommend it. We'll link to it in the show notes. Basically, they tricked these women into killing him. It's fascinating tale. China, I do worry about it a bit, especially since China is giving some podcasters and YouTubers real problems these days. If you follow my friends LaWai 86 and Serpentzia on YouTube, we'll link to those guys in the show notes. So you can follow those guys on YouTube, and a lot of you do, those guys always taking abuse from the CCP, nationalists, Wu Mao, which are like internet comment or trolls, agents of the intelligence services. I know some other folks that are being consistently harassed by Chinese intelligence for talking

about similar things that what we cover here on the show. In fact, one time they tried to trick a prominent friend of mine into going to a hotel with some girl who is posing as a journalist, but was also like scantily clad and hot. She was DMing him, I think. on Instagram or whatever. He knew better. He's married, so he didn't bite. And the girl might have been real. But what we were thinking is, you're going to show up to this hotel.

She's going to try to seduce you. Whether you give in or not, they're going to get some videotape. And they're going to be like, we're going to show everyone, probably your wife, your family, whatever. They would have just blackmailed him or something like that. Super gross. Definitely unsettling. It got referred to the FBI.

And they were like, yep, this is like standard intelligence, especially CCP intelligence. playbook. They were not surprised at all, and they're monitoring this. We've also had guests on the show. Dan David comes to mind. He's the investor and a whistleblower activist shortseller. He's an expert on corruption and fraud in China, or at least the investment side of it. He talked about how his phone gets tapped. Their office computers have systems, intrusions, stuff like that all the time. He knows it's China because the FBI told him it's China. So yeah, this is a concern. And Dan David, fascinating guy. That was episode 476, by the way. Intelligence agencies also, they tend to contact people who are being tracked or threatened by foreign intelligence services because the FBI often

knows about it and you can protect yourself better. If you know you're being targeted, the FBI tells you, and then you're starting to get mysterious, seductive DMs, you know, you go, okay, this is what this is. I've even gotten calls from the FBI with like, hey, FYI, nothing to panic about. We have reason to believe foreign governments may be monitoring some of your accounts. So just make sure you're not putting really sensitive information on your computer or on your phone or whatever. Secure your information. So I'm pretty careful about that.

I'm more security conscious than most people because of my personal history in the diplomatic core or the security space. And because when you're an attorney on Wall Street, you're pretty keenly aware that attorney anywhere, but Wall Street especially when we had access to all kinds of financial information, you are keenly aware that nothing. Nothing is ever truly off the record or deleted for good. So I do worry a little. I'd have to think hard about whether to go back to China.

I'd have to have a really good reason for going. Just because there's potential for them to be like, hey, why are you doing all this negative journalism against the CCP? Maybe you should stay here for a couple weeks and talk with us, you know, have tea. My Chinese teachers, they call it, it's in Chinese, I'm trying to translate this. It's like, basically they come and they check the water meter is the English equivalent. and they call that when the cops knock on your door at like 4 a.m. And they're like, hey, you posted some shit on the internet that we didn't like.

They either call it having tea or checking the water meter. And I don't want to have to talk myself out of any situations, not that I'd necessarily be able to. And look, there are some totally innocent Canadians in prison in China right now because Canada detained somebody with CCP ties. She's under house arrest. She's a corporate big wig. She's under house arrest, shopping online, watching freaking Netflix.

and these two innocent Canadian guys are rotting away in a shitty prison cell in China. It's criminal, honestly. Gabe, I don't know. What about you? Would you go back? To North Korea, probably not, but less because I'm scared of what could happen and more because I've been a bunch of times now and I just kind of get it. I'm not sure what good it's doing me to keep going back.

It's really hard to have new experiences in the DPRK. It's a little too Truman showy for me at this point. I also, you know, after you go two, three times and you kind of get it, after that, you have to ask yourself, what am I really getting out of this experience? am I supporting the regime in some weird roundabout way by continuing to come back here? Not that we're funding their nuclear program or their death camps or anything like that, but do you really have to take a flight from China that's overpriced? That's terrible just so you can go and spend another seven days looking at a statue

that looks like all the 12 others they showed you that day? Not really. China, more complicated. I would have to have a really good reason to go and I might leave my smartphone behind, maybe rent a local one, something like that. But I think the truth is there are a lot of exciting places to visit in the world. I'd rather go there at this point. Like Turkmenistan, right?

The North Korea of the Central Asia. Oh, yeah. That's right. There are so many other North Korea's. Right. Eritrea, the North Korea of Africa. There's a lot of places that are overly repressive that will misuse our money that we can go and patronize, right?

Exactly. Exactly. So maybe when everything opens up again, we'll go somewhere else. Nothing like going to one of the most restrictive regimes in the world on vacation from the other most restrictive regime in the world, which is your fucking living room. Like, right? My kitchen. Nothing, nothing is as restrictive as my kitchen.

From the Pan-E-D to Pyongyang. Yes. Yeah, from the pandemic to Pyongyang. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Go back and check out the guests from this week. David Kilgore on forced organ trafficking, speaking of repressive regimes.

And Rob Durdek, entrepreneur slash skateboarder, more entrepreneur now. If you want to know how I managed to book all these amazing folks on the show, it's about systems, software, and tiny habits. Check out our six-minute networking course, which is free. It's over on the think-iffic platform. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where that's at. Dig the well before you get thirsty.

Once you need relationships, you are too late to build them. And these drills, they take a few minutes a day. Hence the name, six-minute networking. Ignore it at your own peril. I wish I knew this stuff a decade ago. I guess I knew it a decade ago. I wish I knew this stuff two decades ago. Where would I be now?

Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode is at Jordan Harbinger.com. transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video going up on our YouTube channel, Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or you can hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jay Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Keep sending in your questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com.

Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. We've got a trailer of our interview with Molly Bloom who ran infamous underground poker games in Los Angeles and New York that were attended by A-listers, mobsters, and eventually landed her in hot water with the FBI. If you've seen the movie Molly's game, you'll know she was a master of psychology and used a lot of the tactics and techniques that she taught us here on the show. Check out episode 120 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. I went to L.A. and needed to get the first job that I could and got hired by this guy who, I was a pretty demanding boss.

I was his personal assistant. He said, I need you to serve drinks at my poker game. So I'm like, okay, great. And I bring my playlist and my cheese plate. And I'm thinking, you know, the players are going to be these overgrown frat boys. But then Affleck walks in the room, Leo DiCaprio and a politician that was very well recognized

and heads of studios, heads of banks, and all of a sudden I had this light bulb moment that poker is my Trojan horse. I just need the control. and have power over this game because it has this incredible hold over these people. Why do these guys, with their access to anyone and anything, come to this dingy basement to play this game? What is the most money you've seen someone lose in one night? $100 million.

How did the mob get involved? Around Christmas, door opened, and this guy that I'd never seen before pushed his way in, stuck a gun in my mouth. Then he beat the hell out of me, and he kind of gave me this speech about how, If I told anyone about this or if I didn't comply, then they would take a trip to Colorado to see my family. Then the Fed's got involved, and the first thing they did was they took all my money. I moved back to L.A. I'd gotten a pretty decent job. Ten days later, I got a call in the middle of the night. This is agent so-and-so from the FBI.

You need to come out with your hands up. I walk into my hallway. When my eyes adjusted to the high-beam flashlights, I saw 17 FBI agents, semi-automatic weapons pointed at me. If you want to learn more about building rapport and generating the type of trust that Molly Bloom needed to run her multi-million dollar operation, and hear about how it all came to an end, check out episode 120 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love,

and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.