The Jordan Harbinger Show - 535: Should Siblings Unite to Confront Abusive Parents? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: July 16, 2021

You and your five siblings aren't close, but you all have one thing in common: you endured a childhood marred by abusive parents who played you against each other. Now that you're all adults, you'd like to unite your siblings to confront your parents as a group for some closure -- but you're not sure they're all on board with the idea. Is there a good way to convince them, or might it be possible to get the closure you're looking for without their help or even a confrontation at all? We'll get into this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/535 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Is it worth trying to unite your siblings for a confrontation with your abusive parents to gain a sense of closure? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Erin Margolis for helping us with this one!] You've postponed your wedding twice due to the pandemic, but two very close people in your life have passed away in the interim -- and it's hard to imagine having this wedding without them. Is there a way to somehow include and honor them in the ceremony? As a middle manager, you rely on your second-in-command to lead the department so you can focus on admin. Unfortunately, he fails at every step and creates more work for you than he saves. He can't be fired, transferred, or demoted, and he refuses to improve. What can you do? You're a teenager living in a household with your father and a verbally abusive stepmom who doesn't like teens. You'd prefer to live with your biological mother, but the custody agreement as it stands wouldn't allow it. How can you convince your dad and stepmother that changing the agreement would be the right move for everyone? You consider your current sales job as a placeholder until you can get your master's degree in mental health counseling. The hitch is that your program requires your completion of a nine-month internship that would fall during your busy season in two years. What's the least awkward way of bringing this up to your boss -- who doesn't yet know about your aspirations in a completely different field? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my Amigo and Advisory, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So we want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding. of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own brain. If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you, we answer listener questions.

The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of really amazing people, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. If you're joining us for the first time or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we now have episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by popular topic. that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start to get started. This week we had Tristan Harris.

Maybe you saw the social dilemma on Netflix. Really, really interesting documentary about how social media is essentially creating separate realities for everyone based on what they believe and what they click on and what they watch and how it is just wrecking society and our kids. Very uplifting topic. But seriously, the guy is brilliant, so have a listen to that. We also had Greg McKeown, if you've read Essentialism, or even if you have, and his new work is called Effortless. He's just a very productivity is not quite the right word for it.

You know, I guess you would put it in that camp, but really it's about focusing on the right things. If you're a fan of clarity in your thinking, that's a really good episode as well. Please make sure you've had to listen to everything we created for you here this week. And Gabe also came across an interesting article this week about Frank Abagnale Jr. So, you know, episode one of this show, world-renowned count artist. they made a movie about his life, Catch me if you can. So there's now some speculation

that maybe his whole story about being a con man who played a pilot or who pretended to be a pilot, a doctor, and a lawyer, maybe that's actually the con that he pulled. Maybe that's all actually just BS. And there's a book about it by a journalist called The Greatest Hokes on Earth,

catching truth while we can. And basically his conclusion was this. Abingale might have done some of the stuff that he said he did, but mostly it's embellished or exaggerated. and a lot of it's fabricated. And his parole officer was like, hey, present yourself as this transformed man.

And then he came up with a story about how he used to do all these amazing things. And now he wants to help the FBI and the police catch criminals. And this is an investigative journalist, not some mucker actor, you know, on Twitter. So it's really interesting because we don't know what's true and what's not

or that Abingale was lying about everything. I just wanted to share it because obviously I never want to participate in any kind of misinformation or self-mythologizing. and I know that we value independent thought, critical thinking. And they said it best in the article, the author of this book that's going after Abingale, he said many people, when they step back from the story and really take a breath and really think

it through, is it possible that all this happened according to the narrative? And it's just not. It's just not plausible. This is what he said. And he said it's so reflective thinking is something I think that is of extreme value to society right now. And I agree with that. And I think that it is very interesting that this man who supposedly conned all these

folks really is just conning us allegedly. All right. I'm still thankful he took the time to come and do the show, but it is a little disappointing, but also not totally surprising, right? Fascinating, yeah. All right. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 26-year-old woman from Germany and the fifth of six children. We all had a pretty traumatic childhood. To the outside, we presented as the perfect family, but we were expected to bring home straight A's and not cause any problems. If we didn't, the consequences ranged from not being allowed to play on the computer, to not being allowed to socialize with friends, or, in my case, read books, which was my favorite pastime when I was a kid. There were also some physical altercations. My mom literally dragged me by

my hair a couple of times. She never apologized, and our father never stood up to her, not for us, or even for himself. My mother used to say things like, our kids don't go through puberty, or talk about how proud she was that we were all much more mature than other kids our age. while at the same time berating us to varying degrees because we were quote unquote difficult. She also compared us siblings too and played us against one another. On top of that, my mother had breast cancer when I was eight and an aneurysm when I was 12, and there were very frank discussions about her possibly dying. Any conflict in our family was quote unquote making her sick and meant us, quote unquote,

wanting her to die. All of this led me and my siblings to have almost non-existent relationships. We're all cordial, but we don't really know one another. I recently got all of them together in a group chat in an effort to work through our childhood and try to reconnect. My siblings all agree that this is something we have to work through on our own and that it will be impossible to actually confront our parents because they will not be able to self-reflect whatsoever, especially our mother. They all feel that they just have to put on a mask when it comes to my parents, especially as two of my sisters have children now, and don't want them to have a tainted relationship with their grandparents.

And I tend to agree. A few years ago, I wrote them a letter at the suggestion of my therapist, They went through it with a marker, got hung up on semantics, and took it as a personal attack rather than as the intended, Hey, I just wanted you to know how I felt and how much I'm dealing with this. This ended with me running out of my own apartment after a non-stop barrage of accusations. I've tried to move on since then, but I find myself getting angrier and angrier with my parents for what they've done to us, even though I know they didn't do most of it maliciously and they were just overwhelmed. I don't think I can continue to put on a mask around them. I need closure.

My hope is that our parents might listen if all of us siblings confront them together because then they can't just blame it on one child imagining things. Can I convince my siblings that we need this confrontation? If yes, how? Or alternatively, how do I find closure without confronting my parents? Signed, closing the loop. Well, this is a really sad and bizarre story, Gabe. You know, we hear a lot from folks who were hurt by their parents,

but some of the stuff in here is just different. I mean, getting dragged by your hair, definitely abusive, pretty textbook, horrifying child abuse right there, but not being allowed to read when you love books, having your parents tell you that you don't go through puberty, being used as a pawn in your parents' weird emotional chess game against your siblings. It's just a whole other kind of heartbreaking. I'm really sorry you had to go through all this. I really am. That was obviously not an easy house to grow up in. No, it wasn't. I can only imagine what that was like, I get why she has all this rage toward her parents. They did a real number on her from the sound of it. But then

said this thing that really stood out to me. She goes, I find myself getting angrier and angrier with my parents for what they've done to us. Okay, I get that. Even though I know they didn't do most of it maliciously and they were just overwhelmed. Like, what? Wait, hold on. You're so consumed with anger your parents for abusing you, but they didn't mean it. They were just spread too thin. I don't know. There's something else going on here, I think. Yeah, that jumped out at me too. So, all right, let's get into it. As per usual, we made sure we had a good handle on a complicated childhood situation like this, we consulted with Dr. Aaron Margolis. She's an awesome clinical psychologist and friend of the show. And it's funny because Dr. Margolis zeroed in on this exact same thing as well. So first of all,

it sounds to me like you're caught between two impulses. On one hand, you feel this justified anger towards your parents for what they did to you. You want to hold them accountable. But then you also feel this impulse to let them off the hook for what they did and maybe even to justify it. And Dr. Margolis, she's actually seen this conflict many times over the years. Someone will be like, my mom smacked me around when I was a kid, but you know, she was just doing her best. Or my dad used to get drunk and tell me I'd never amount to anything. But we have a different relationship now, almost as if they're talking themselves out of what they went through to mitigate the blow of having a childhood like that.

And as Dr. Margolis put it, most children, they have trouble holding space for the pain of being hurt by their parents. And I can imagine why that's the case. There's a whole psychology to that, not going to go down that rabbit hole. But basically, it's very risky for a kid who depends on their parents for survival and safety and love for that matter to acknowledge even to themselves that their parents are doing something terrible. In part because we're wired to idealize our parents to some degree to believe that they're these infallible superheroes, even slash especially when they do us harm.

But then you grow up and you realize that all this crazy shit they put you through. And it's like, that's why psychotherapy exists in the first place. So Dr. Margolis's question was, what would it be like for you to say, my parents were wrong and hurtful, full stop? Because right now, you know that, but you're also saying, oh, they were just overwhelmed. There's still this part of you that wants to protect them, or maybe protect yourself, from feeling all the feels that come up when you fully acknowledge what your parents did to you.

But letting them off the hook that quickly, it's possible you're just trying to force some acceptance before you've really worked through all of this. down the road, sure, empathy for your parents might be very helpful. But before you get there, I think you still have some processing to do. Whatever you need to experience right now, grief, sadness, anger, especially anger, I would imagine that's appropriate given what they did to you. And it's healthy. So Dr. Margolis's insight is that owning and processing those feelings, that will probably be the thing that gives you the closure you're looking for, more than just confronting your parents about all this and expecting something to happen from that.

So true, because right now you want to stage this emotional intervention with your siblings. You want your parents to basically say, yes, you're right, we did these things to you guys. Man, we were in the wrong. I'm so sorry. But it's not clear that that is actually going to work. I mean, you already tried writing them that letter. Look what happened. They couldn't even hear you.

I mean, they went through it with a marker. And if you guys confront them all together, I don't know, Jordan. I just feel like they'll probably shut down, probably fight back even harder. So if you decide that you do want to say something to your parents, which is your right, of course. But if you do do that, I would consider shifting some of your expectations, because if you're hoping that they're going to break down in tears and say, oh my God, you're right, we were awful to you. I'm so sorry. Can you ever forgive us? I'm just not sure that's going to happen. Yeah, I don't see that in the cards, especially not with these parents, sadly.

But if you did want to have a conversation with them to validate your own experience or to reclaim the story that has been edited by your parents all of these years, again, literally edited. most recently with a sharpy pen while you sat in front of them until you ran out of your own apartment. Then if you want to do it for those reasons, you might get something valuable out of it. Dr. Margolis put it this way. She said, the outcome you're hoping for might not be about your parents' response. It might be more about you and your experience owning that, whether your parents acknowledge it or not. Yeah, that's a really great insight.

But that's also tricky, right? I mean, if I'm confronting my parents for dragging me by the hair and locking me in the house as a kid, I want a frigging apology or at minimum I want them to be like, you're right, we did do that to you. We were too tough on you or we were tough on you in general. I'm not just doing it to hear myself talk. I totally get that. But again, that is why her expectations are going to matter so much here because being disappointed by your parents, that is largely a function of what you're hoping to get out of them versus what they can actually give you. Yeah. Okay. Right, right. Because if she knows that they might never give her the empathy or the contrition that she wants, she'll be less wounded when they,

no surprise, refuse to give her that, right? At least she'll be prepared. Right, exactly. And then she gets to say, look, I know you can't acknowledge this, but I need you to know that what you did to me was really damaging. This is how it made me feel. I need you to just hear that. And maybe that will be a crucial step for her. Yeah, I think you're right. So if you're probably not going to get what you want from this intervention, how are you supposed to get the closure you're looking for? Well, all right, We already touched on the first one, which is fully owning your experience here. As Dr. Margolis put it, the anger you feel, it is actually protective. That's the part of you that knows you're right.

That's protecting these childhood wounds. So pushing that emotion down or papering over it by saying like, oh, they were just so stressed out. They were overwhelmed, raising a bunch of kids. That's probably just going to make things harder. And as cheesy as it sounds, the first step is to really feel all of the feelings without hedging or rationalizing or justifying. then you have to find healthy and meaningful ways to process those feelings.

That could mean talking about it with friends and family, journaling, meditating, working through it with therapy, which is always helpful. That could be bringing it up in a support group for victims of childhood abuse. Those are everywhere. There are places, lots of places, to work through those feelings and understand them and hopefully then resolve them. And another thing you might want to consider is talking to your siblings, just you guys as a group.

You can invite them to sit down, you can talk to them one-on-one, whatever feels most comfortable. well, you could maybe share what you've been through and ask them what they've been through. Start talking about how all of you guys are making sense of that now. That could help you process all of this, and it could help bring you guys closer together, which I know is one of your objectives here. Look, I know you want them to confront your parents with you, safety and numbers. Maybe they'll listen to you.

Maybe they won't be able to ignore you as easily. If you guys all do it as a group, I get that. But honestly, I'm not entirely sure that it's your job to convince your siblings to do that. they obviously all have very different experiences with your parents. I mean, look, two of them want their kids to have a relationship with their grandparents. And I think the way you put it is they'd rather just put on the mask and get through life. And that says a lot. So I would be prepared for them to handle this in their own way, which might not be your way. And that might be disappointing in and of itself, but it is their right, even if you're choosing to do it in a more healthy or authentic way, let's say.

But short of that, I would definitely invite your siblings to talk. That's definitely the first step. maybe over time a couple of them will want to join you. Or maybe you'll find out that you really don't need to confront your parents as a group because you're doing some of the processing that Jordan was just talking about with your siblings directly. But like he said, you'll probably find more insight in healing there than you will in going after your parents as a group. So bottom line, finding the closure,

that's ultimately going to be about processing this experience for yourself. And I know it's frustrating to accept that you're not maybe going to get closure from the people who caused these significant wounds in the first place. That sucks. But that's how life works a lot of the time. And in the absence of that, we have to find closure and healing within ourselves, as corny as that might sound. So I hope you get to do that. I hope you find some new connection and meaning in the process.

And we're thinking about you. Good luck. Gabe, it sucks, though, having all those siblings be like, we need to fix this. And then other ones are like, well, I don't know. I'm going to like freaking backpedal on this now. You know, or like, I don't know if I want to do the hard part of it. Right. But yeah, let's fix it.

but not really, like, do the hard work. And, like, also, I want my kids to have a relationship with their grandparents, even though they locked me in a garage with a bowl of dog food for a week. Like, it just sucks, you know, like, it sucks to hear that. It's almost like, oh, these are the people, we're all on one page. They're going to have my back. And they're like, I don't know, do I want to deal with that? Maybe not.

Yeah. Yeah. It also probably makes her feel like she has to wear that mask even more because, you know, why am I the one who feels all this anger? Right. Why am I the one who wants to confront our parents authentically and be myself and tell them how I really feel, you know, five other people whom I grew up with got through this whole thing and they don't feel like they need to do all of that. So does that invalidate what I went through? Am I crazy?

Right. Like I could see that doing a whole number on her entire lens on the situation. You're like self-gaslighting. Yeah. You're second guessing yourself. Totally. I can see how that might be a little bit confusing on top of the pain and the frustration of having these parents who won't even listen to you. But I do think that she has a good head on our shoulders and she knows what she went through. She obviously has come a long way in therapy. So whatever way she chooses to handle it, I think it is probably the more honest approach given everybody in the situation. By the way, y'all, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. Makes our job a lot easier. Tell us what state and country you

live in, which will help us give even more detailed advice. So if there's something you're going through any big decision that you are wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. You're listening to Feedback Friday here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. And now, back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, what's next? Hey, guys. After postponing our wedding twice due to COVID, my fiancé and I are finally having the

wedding this fall. We can't wait to celebrate with our loved ones and take on the next chapter of our lives. The sad thing is one of my closest friends and my grandmother both passed away in the last few months. I was extremely close to both of them, and to be honest, I haven't fully recovered from the loss. Their guidance was instrumental in leading me to a place where I could even have this relationship, and I can't imagine having the wedding without them. It kills me to remember how much they loved my fiancé and how excited they were to attend. I know I'm asking for the impossible here, but is there a way to have this wedding and still somehow bring them into the celebration? What can I do to honor them for everything they gave me.

What's the best way to handle this loss on a night when I'm gaining so much? Thank you so much for your wisdom and everything you do, signed, good grief. I am really sorry that you had to say goodbye to two people in such a short amount of time. Losing loved ones is always hard, but a big life event, like a wedding,

kind of highlights or magnifies the loss in some ways. And you're right, it is sad that they won't be there, but I do think there's a way to bring them into the day in a meaningful way. As we mentioned a couple weeks ago, Gabe and I are reading this book called Grief Day by Day by Jan Warner, and she wrote it after her husband Artie died, and he was, you know, the love of her life. They had a special bond, and then she lost him to cancer. And her journey through mourning eventually became this book, which Gabe, I assume she must have

journaled a lot during this process because it's sort of a lot of clarity in there. Definitely. And Jan, she actually talks a lot about how hard holidays and celebrations can be when you're grieving. In fact, she and her husband, they got married on her birthday. So after he passed away, every time their anniversary comes around, it's her birthday, so it's super painful. And over time, she processed a lot of the grief. And her family helped her celebrate things in a new way, but holidays still bring up a lot of

the feelings for her. And this is sort of similar. You might feel something similar on your wedding day, and that's normal. That feeling of loss, it's really a reflection of how much your friend and your grandmother meant to you. You can either think of it only as a loss, or you can think of it as a loss. an expression of the love that you feel for them. So if you can be both sad and joyful,

then they'll be at the wedding and spirit. And that's one powerful way to keep them alive. And Jan has a cool exercise for doing that, right? It's not just like, try and keep both these ideas in your head. She recommends carving out a little time before your wedding to write about your friend and your grandma. So at the top of the page, write, how can I honor you today?

Then write down one or two ways you could celebrate them. Did your friend and your grandma have any special traditions or rituals? Can you work one of those into the wedding or make up a new one in their name? This could be something big like a ceremonial ritual they would have done, or it can be something really tiny, like a joke or a gesture or a story. Sometimes those small ones are the most meaningful. Jan also recommends reading something that they wrote or watching a video they recorded for you or writing to them or about them.

Again, this is sort of on your own. You don't have to do it. The whole reception doesn't have to watch this or whatever. And if you can't think of anything to write, she says you can always go with a simple message like, I love you, I miss you, you're in my heart always, you know, basic stuff. It's for you, it's not for anyone else. Those are Jan's words, but you can obviously make them your own. Right. Basically, Jan is really big on finding gratitude within the grief, because for her gratitude lessens the weight of mourning. And I think you'll find something similar on your wedding day, as she puts it in the book,

grief can have great sadness, but also it can be a vessel for joy. And I know that's like kind of a Game of Thronesy kind of way. It's a vessel for joy. But it is. She has an exercise for that too. By the way, if you want to give this a try. Before the wedding, gather a few photos of your grandma and your friend. If they ever sent you letters or videos, grab those to anything that they sent you that

mean something. Gather it. Get it together. Sit down with them and spend some time with them. Maybe even do this with your fiance since he was close with them as well. I could actually imagine that being a very meaningful experience to share with him. And think about all the things that you're grateful for in the time that you spent with them.

Basically carve out a little bit of time before the. the wedding a couple days, it could even be on the morning of the wedding, if that would make it more meaningful. Reflect on how your life has been enriched by these two people. And if you want to bring them into the day even more, maybe you can mention a few of those things. If you, I don't know, if you make a toast at the wedding or you're talking to other guests at the party after the reception afterwards, somebody who knew your friend or who knew your grandma. You could tell them a story or a joke or a gesture, you know, whatever you want to do to keep them alive. People, they really do live on in stories. It's incredible, Jordan. You know, I lost a few people this year as well. And I noticed that, you

there's this profound sadness, there's profound loss. And then there's like this incredible way that they still stick around when you just, like, you say something they used to say in their little accent or you make a joke that they used to make or you serve, you know, you serve dinner on a plate exactly the way you used to do. And then everybody just has this moment of like, oh, yeah, they were so great, they're so special. And in that way, people can stick around. And maybe that's how you make them part of the day as well. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of that. Telling stories, keeping people alive. It is interesting because my dad's son of the family. They're like Catholic. So funerals of course, well, in many traditions, funeral.

are like horrifying and very somber. And then there's a couple of other, I've been to several funerals in my life, you know, as the circle of life goes. And I don't know which are which, but like I've gone to an Irish funeral and you wouldn't know, except for the dead body in the front

that it was a funeral. Like people are drinking and they're like, yeah, remember that. They're like yelling, funny things. They're telling jokes. And it's interesting because I remember when I heard the laughter, I was like, oh my God,

this guy's, wife must be so upset. They're in the corner. They're like slurring and laughing. I mean, how disrespectful. And she walks over to them and was just hugging them. And like, it was clearly just the best medicine at the time was everybody eating and just making, making Mary. And it really is interesting to see those kinds of different rituals that are passed down or those traditions. Like, if you tell the stories, you keep people alive, you do all that. You're going to find a way to bring your friend and your grandma into the celebration in a cool way that doesn't drag down your wedding day. They sound like really special people. I think it's awesome. You had them in your life for so long. The fact that they

played a big role in you getting married, that's probably a sad thought sometimes, but it's also really touching. If you keep that in mind on your wedding day, they're going to be there just in a different way. And I know it's not the same, but it can be just as powerful, sometimes even more so. We'll link to this book, Grief Day by Day by Day by Jan Warner in the show notes. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, of course. You can also check out grief day by day.com. Highly recommend it. Congrats on getting married. We're sending you and your fiance good thoughts. Gabriel, I know that sometimes these like gratitude and grief things, they sound a little corny and life coachy. Sure. But since you're managing emotions, that's kind of all we got, right? Right. You know, like, we have to kind of do those things.

And maybe it is corny to tell yourself a joke that somebody told you years ago or bring an article of clothing that your grandma had. But it's like, it's just for you. So it doesn't really matter if it's rooted in science, right? It just is to make you feel. better. That's it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, cheesy doesn't mean wrong. Yeah, especially when it comes to these kind of emotional exercises. By the way, I mentioned this a couple weeks back.

I hired a trainer recently and I, a lot of you were like, wait, what was the name of it again? It's workout, W-R-K-O-U-T, so just, you know, without the first O. It's been amazing and a lot of people are like, oh, did you lose weight? What happened? I will tell you the biggest change for me, yes, I lost a little bit of weight. Yes, I'm a lot stronger. But I will tell you, the biggest thing for me is I don't get sore when I'm saying, sitting a lot, I can play with my kid on the floor and then get up without like grabbing onto

a chair and being like, uh, right? I'm just much stronger in those ways, not like the bench press 300 pounds kind of way, but in the way that functional strength, like I can carry a box and if I lean over too far, I don't freaking fall over and drop it. You know, like, I have just gained so much day-to-day functionality from this. I just feel so much healthier too. And all the little things where it would be like, oh, my back's a little sore because I've been sitting today. All that stuff is gone. Knee pain is gone. The hip pain that I was slowly starting to get was gone.

I'm only 41, and I feel younger now after having a trainer for seven months than I did in my mid-30s when I was sitting all the time in a freaking futon or in an office and working. So highly recommend it. Workout is where you can find it. It's WR-K-O-U-T.com. Great company owned by a friend of mine. Just life-changing. The trainers are all really good.

I just keep recommending this because I wish I had done this earlier, and I recommend it to everyone. All right, next question. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a middle manager in a government position. I have a second in command, let's call him Bill, who's supposed to lead our department so I can focus on the admin side of the house. But Bill is rarely to be found. He hides from our subordinates and my boss. He throws temper tantrums whenever someone asks him a simple question. He choose out our employees.

He frequently spaces out, makes poor recommendations, isn't aware of what's going on day to day, and fails to act when he has to. When he does paperwork, he does it so poorly that I end up having to redo it all. My coworkers and I share the opinion that he is severely depressed, possibly because we are based overseas and his family lives back in the States. This is also the first time he's been in our type of work environment in over a decade, and he's set to retire next year. My boss is at a loss about what to do.

We can't fire him, transfer him, demote him, or ask him. to retire early. I also can't leave this job myself as I'm locked into a contract. We've sat him down and told him what we needed from him and he deflected, blaming our subordinates for his failure. I've already begun keeping a record of his poor performance and I've decided to write him a pretty tough review when the time comes. I've used different methods from asking for his help to explaining why I need him to do something, to writing him up, to offering him free vacation days and breaks from work, which by the way he declined, including an opportunity for him to travel home and see his family. I'm a very strong leader, but I need support to be able to focus on my own projects,

and this guy just will not improve. So what should I do? Signed a full-time babysitter. Ah, this is so infuriating. Good old government job, right? With a guy you can't fire, you can't move him. I mean, just like, what? If I had to manage a guy like this, I'd be throwing water bottles at him constantly,

secession style. I know everyone is going through something, but this guy clearly has some issues. Part of me even wonders if he's just not even totally there. like brain fog or, I'm not even joking when I say like dementia. There's something wrong here. Could just be depression, sure. So do I have compassion for him on some level? Yeah, honestly I do, because that can't be easy. People aren't crappy on purpose most of the time. But to hide from your boss and throw your employees under the bus and then lash out at people because you literally won't even do your job, that's unforgivable, in my opinion. Friggin' Bill, this is a dude you just straight up shit can.

I'm sorry, but I know it's not that simple in your case. So let's talk options. Option one. you sit him down, you tell him point blank that the way he's behaving is dysfunctional. It's unprofessional. It's uncool. It's becoming a serious problem. Maybe don't say uncool if he's about to retire. That might not resonate with him. But then rather than threaten him with some type of punishment, I would tell him you want to

understand what's going on with him. For just this conversation, make a choice to stop being his boss and just be his friend for a minute. Make it safe for him to open up. Be gentle. Be respectful. If he does open up, then listen to. what he says. Validate what he's going through. Maybe he freaking hates where he is. I don't know.

They didn't say where he was overseas, right? Maybe they're in a really lonely kind of outpost with just a few expats in the Middle East or Africa or something. You know, maybe it's hard for him to go out and do anything or get away from work. Just do your best to appreciate where he's coming from, even if it's just reckless and irrational. It sounds like you already kind of did this, but I'm not sure you've approached him as a peer who wants to understand the deeper issue, rather than as a colleague who's trying to plug the holes in the ship. And I understand why that would be the case. But once you work through that, try to help him see why he needs to change

and come up with a plan together. Like, hey, I'm sorry you're feeling so down. I know it's hard to be far away from your family. I know why this place can stress you out. I can see why all this responsibility is pretty intense for you, whatever it is. But we need you to step up, Bill. I know we can do better. And the last thing I want to do is be on top of you when I'm trying to manage my own projects.

You know, we need you, that kind of thing. If he seems receptive, come up with systems and habits that'll help him perform. Just be very clear about what you need from him moving forward and tell him that you're available to talk if he needs some extra help. But look, if Bill deflects or lashes out at you or doubles down in his bullshit, then you move to option two, which is you crack the whip. Tell Bill that you've been more than supportive, you've been beyond patient, but now he's behaving in a way that is just unacceptable.

You tell him that you're keeping a record of his performance and that it's going to be hard to write him a good review. Maybe you even tell him you're considering escalating this to management or HR, although you said you can't fire him. I'm wondering why maybe he's a wrongful termination lawsuit waiting to happen because he's so close to retirement. Is the CEO his brother-in-law? I don't know. It seems weird to me. Politics can be tricky. Anyway, don't be cruel about it, but I would be very direct. At this point, he might respond to negative repercussions more than positive reinforcement. Maybe the stick is better than the carrot in this instance. But honestly, this guy he might not even care about that. Maybe he's so depressed he can't connect to his colleagues at all. Maybe he's so

avoidant. He literally can't even stomach any responsibility. Or maybe he's just an entitled a-hole who's riding this paycheck until his retirement. Any of these could make it hard for you to change him, which leaves you with option three, which is you just put up with this guy until he retires next year. Quarantine him to low-stakes work. Put him out to pasture. Find a way to empowered your other employees to pick up the slack, spend as little time as possible managing his bullshit. Pretty soon, he just won't be your problem anymore. Let go of your anger, focus on more important stuff, get creative about finding a workaround until you can hire somebody who's actually able to do the job. Agreed. I would give each of those options a try and I would do it probably in that

order so you know that you really did everything you could. But ultimately, if Bill just refuses to change, then you're going to have to. You're going to have to find another way of working with him or not working with him or just bypassing this whole headache, honestly. Actually, that just made me think of something Jordan. I wonder if there's someone they will want to take over for Bill when he retires, you know, somebody they have an eye on. If they shift Bill's responsibilities to that person starting now, like way in advance, they can work around Bill's shenanigans and then start grooming his replacement. And then there will be a seamless transition once Bill is gone. Maybe that's how you can use this whole fiasco to your advantage and maybe make any other changes you need to make to avoid

another bill situation in the future. Right. So you can sort of, hey, we're training the guy who's going to come in after you when you retire. And then it's like, he's going to do all of your work. Exactly. You supervise from the basement. Yeah, watching ESPN. Right.

So, yeah, good idea. When life gives you bills, you make billanade or something. Billenade. You all know what I mean. Make the situation work for you. Find the silver lining in every crappy situation. There's a little seed of something good if you can find it. and I hope you do find it. Good luck.

This is the Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and or services? You can always visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Hey, guys. I'm 15 years old, and my parents are divorced. I currently live with my stepmom, my biological father, and my biological brother. My biological mother wasn't truly a part of my life until a few years ago because she was out of state taking care of her other children, my half-siblings. But now she lives in the same town as me, and she's becoming a bigger part of my life again. She really wants me to live with her, and I want to live with her as well. We have a great relationship. Here's the thing.

My stepmom doesn't like teenagers, and my brother and I are both in our teens. She will verbally abuse us sometimes over the dumbest things, like insulting me because I didn't know the difference between an old Camero and a Dodge Challenger when she showed me a car photo recently. She does this kind of thing a lot. I actually started keeping a list of her insults a month ago and I already have a couple pages full, which I would rather not go into detail about. Because of all of this, I now want to live with my biological mother, but I don't want to have to explain why for fear of my stepmom going off on me again. Also, my parents' custody agreement says that I'll spend a day or two with my bio mom every other weekend

and then the rest of the time with my dad and my stepmom. So how do I convince my dad and stepmom to let me do this? Signed, seeking calm with my bio-mom without setting off an atom bomb. Oh, man, I'm sorry your stepmom is like this. She sounds like a real piece of work. So I can see why you want to live with your bio-mom now. That custody agreement, though, that could get a little tricky. Basically, your parents have already agreed on how to share custody.

And if your dad wants to, he can point to it and say, sorry, but this is what the court decided. You got to live with me all the time, except every other weekend or whatever. But if he's willing to be flexible, then your parents can go with any arrangement they like, probably. And maybe the fact that your stepmom doesn't like teenagers, Gabe, I don't even understand how you can say that to a child that you're raising.

This is some German mom from the first question type shit. It's just like, and also, it's so obviously not a thing that you really think is dumb. Like, oh, you don't know a Camero. I mean, what? planet are you from where that is something that you think everyone knows? That's just, it's so, yeah, you're reaching for that. Yeah, it's so clearly just her trying to be an asshole. Anyway, so I guess maybe that means she'll be down for you to live with your mom as well if she just doesn't like you and decides to torment you for no reason. I'm hoping that's how it is and she doesn't

just get some sort of weird joy out of it. But how do you have that conversation? Well, I would get together with your mom, come up with a plan together, sit down with your dad and your stepmom. You can do this with your mom if it'll help or alone if having there is going to make things harder. Tell them that you love them. You enjoy living with them. You appreciate everything they've done. Even if that's not 100% true, don't worry about it right now. You might want to say it to be gracious, but that you really miss your mom, you want to spend more time with her and you'd like to live with her now. I wouldn't frame it as you know, stepmom, you insult me constantly and dad, you enable her, you spineless prick. I'm sick of living with you. I would frame it more like, I really want to grow up with both my parents and I've

spend a lot of time away from mom and we both want to be closer. We need to make up for lost time. Don't worry. I'll still come over for dinner. I'm still going to be a part of your lives. I just, I want to sleep over at moms now. And it would mean a lot to me if you would let me do that. You know, be kind, be gracious, try to avoid a fight as much as possible and be patient. It might take some time for your parents to sort this out. Then I would coordinate with your mom to talk to your dad about it. And if I were her, I would reassure him that she's not trying to punish him. She's not trying to take you away from him. She's just listening to what you want. I would encourage her to frame it as our daughter's 15 now. She's old enough to start making some

decisions about where she spends her time. And I think it would be great if we both respected that. Rather than, you know, hey, you married a headcase who treats our daughter like crap. And I'm taking her back. You don't deserve her. There might be some truth to that, but that's probably not going to get your dad on board. Yes, agreed. I think that's probably the most diplomatic approach. And that'll probably lower their defenses just enough to consider another way of you living with your mom and not taking it super personally or fighting her tooth and nail. My only other advice is to find a way to stay close to your dad and especially your brother if you do move out. You know, maybe you come over for dinner a couple nights a week. You catch a movie together here and there. Maybe you spend some

holidays together, that kind of thing. But I'm really thinking of your brother here. I'm guessing that he, you said you're both teenagers here. You know, he's struggling with your stepmom as well or he will be pretty soon, he might feel pretty alone if you move out like he's losing you and maybe he'll feel, I don't know, I'm guessing, but he might feel a tiny bit abandoned or he might be a little bit, a little bit envious that you get to live with Biomomomom and he has to stick in evil stepmom's house. You know, that's hard. So try to be there for him as much as possible. And when the time does come, do what you can to make sure that you're protecting him from your stepmom if she starts laying into him too. And look, if your dad refuses to let you live with your mom,

then it's time to have a conversation with him about the way your stepmom treats you. I wouldn't even necessarily bring it up before that. You know, he might not be participating in that, but he is certainly enabling it by not intervening. But if he refuses to stand up to his wife, I would talk to her directly. Tell her that the way she talks to you is hurtful. It's unnecessary.

You want to have a good relationship with her. You want her to treat you better. And if she won't, then maybe you work with your mom and a lawyer to revisit that custody agreement. Or you hang on for three more years, which I know that sounds like a long time, but it's going to be over before you know it.

When you're 18, you're free to live with your mom or get your own place, I would try and work on your dad and your stepmom first. The more you can make them feel that your family is staying intact, even though you're living under your mom's roof, the more likely it is that they'll be on board. I hope they honor what you want and that you guys find a solution that works for everyone.

I'm definitely rooting for you on this, but Gabe, this stepmom sounds horrible. She needs a real attitude adjustment. She, you know, she better watch it. We have access to a lot of, let's just say, squirrel in the mailbox type of people that might be interested in talking to her about her mistreatment of our listeners. Oh my God. Can you imagine? Let's take the villain from Feedback Friday a month ago and sick them on the Feedback Friday people from this week. Exactly. Like, hey,

it's like a really twisted matchmaking service. Like, oh, we find people that are doing bad things and we match them with crazy people that are tormenting our fans. New business model, perhaps? I don't know. Yeah, I think maybe. Maybe. Maybe. All right. What's next? Hey Jordan and Gabe. I started a master's degree in mental health counseling in the middle of last year and have another two and a half years before I finish. Two months ago, I started a new sales job in an industry I've been a part of for over 10 years, but I didn't tell my new employer because I didn't want this influencing their decision to hire me. I like my job for the most part, but it's only a placeholder until I can get a job in the mental health field after

graduation. My concern is this. My program requires that I complete a nine-month internship. That internship is still two years away, but it will fall during my busy season at work when I have high workloads and time demands. Internships are sometimes flexible, but I will likely need to arrange a non-traditional schedule with my employer to be able to complete it. My employer appears to be generally flexible on hours, but I don't know how they will react to the news that I'm in school or how flexible they'll be during the busy season. So how and when do I approach my work about my school situation, signed serving to Masters. Well, first of all, well done balancing this big job with an intense graduate program. That is not easy to do. You sound like a super smart, focused, ambitious person, and I'm sure those qualities are going

to serve you pretty well when you graduate. This is a tricky situation, but the good news is that you have plenty of time to prepare for it. It sounds like two years, maybe a little less. So here's what I do. First, I wouldn't necessarily bring this up any sooner than you absolutely have to, because who knows, maybe you switch jobs before you get you. your internship or your job becomes more flexible or there's less on your plate or the internship

turns out to be a lot less demanding than you think it would really suck if you told your employer that you've been moonlighting on your masters then they get mad at you for keeping it a secret but it actually turned out to be totally unnecessary also if this problem is two years away I don't think they need to know two years in advance that you might have to work a little differently it's not like you're moving to another country that's a conversation you could probably have three or six months before. You're just asking for schedule flexibility. It's not that big of a deal. The only caveat is if you think this news will be worse in two years. You know, I can see that going a couple of ways. Either your boss won't even care because you've crushed it for two plus years.

So clearly grad school is not getting in the way of your performance or your boss will feel like you've been deceiving them. And this really comes down to their personality, what your relationship is like and how cool your company is with these kinds of requests. So I'd factor all of that into your decision. Then I would lay the groundwork. Time travel in your mind to this conversation in 18 months. What would your bosses need to know or feel in order to grant you the flexibility that you need? Maybe they need to know that you can hit your sales targets no matter what. Maybe they need to feel that you represent a significant source of revenue for the company. Maybe they need to know that you're an upstanding dude who's earned some consideration. Then work backwards and create a plan

to get there. Create a system to meet or exceed your sales targets. Find a way to drum up a little more business. Basically make it so they can't afford to lose you. Be a kind, helpful, productive colleague to your bosses and your peers. And that way when you ask for a flexible schedule, they're going to be so much more willing to accommodate you. And who knows? Maybe they, will have to. And that request will be so much easier if you have great relationships with your bosses and your colleagues. It's just one more example of how networking within your current job is just as important as networking outside of it. And I teach a lot of this networking stuff in our six-minute networking course. You can find that it's free. It's at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Again, totally free.

teaches you how to do it inside and outside any network. So go and do that. Start doing that if you haven't yet. Then and only then would I tell them about your degree? At that point, you book some time with your boss, you say something like, so listen, I know this might be a bit of a surprise, but I've been working on my master's degree in my spare time, and I have to do an internship to complete it. I know I can do both. You know that I work hard, but I need some flexibility for like nine months.

I've come up with a system to meet my targets during the busy season. And then you share the plan in more detail as part of the meeting, and you could say, look, I'm hoping we can make this work because I'd love to keep working here. Let them respond. Ask questions, wrap their head around it, make them feel comfortable and confident that you'll do right by them. And if you lay the groundwork, this conversation will probably be very doable. Of course, there's always a chance your company won't give you what you want, in which case you'll have to manage that response. Here's the good news, though, that job? It's not your dream. It's a means to an end. So if your bosses are

miffed about all this, just take it in stride. Don't let them rattle you. stay focused on your long game. You're working toward a career in mental health. That is your North Star. You're not going to be able to please everyone along the way. In fact, the better you are at this job, the more they might resent that you're not prioritizing them. That sounds a little bit of paradoxical there, but that's what we call a champagne problem. Do your best to do right by everyone while you prioritize yourself and you're going to be fine. So good luck. I wouldn't stress about this. and I hope you crush it in both your careers. Hope you all enjoyed that.

I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the episodes with Tristan Harris and Greg McEwen, if you haven't yet, both great episodes there for you this week. And a link to the show notes for the episode.

Always found at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. The six-minute networking course is also on the website, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. There's a video of Feedback Friday that goes on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter on Instagram or hit me on LinkedIn.

You can find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jay Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis's input utilizes evidence-based psychological information and is intended to be general and informational in nature.

It does not indicate an established clinical relationship or replace treatment for anyone writing into the show. Please follow up with a mental health professional who can provide feedback tailored to your unique needs. Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live. what you listen, and we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next, episode 135 with Joe Navarro, here on the Jordan Harbinger

show. There is no pill that cures malignant narcissism. There just isn't. You can't take a pill for it. Character flaws are fixed and rigid, and they remain with us, and it would take heroic efforts on the part of the person to overcome these things. only they can fix themselves. The point is things will not get better, so document everything.

The person with the best set of records of events wins. I have to be honest and say, look, as you said, Jordan, it's not going to get better. Things will get worse, and unfortunately it usually does. And the person that pays the price are those that are closest to the malignant narcissist. Once I teach you to look for these behaviors, you will never forget them. You will be more aware and you will be able to notice them. And when we begin to accumulate these behaviors and we aggregate them and they go into that checklist, you know, there's 130-something items on the predator checklist, and you say, wow, this person tops 50.

this individual will put you at risk. They will victimize you. It doesn't matter where you're at. There is no safe place. There is no safe church. All it takes is one predator to undo all of that. For more on dangerous personality types and how to spot them before they can do damage to you or those you love,

check out episode 135 with Joe Navarro here on the Jordan Harbinjury. Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger Show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laugh,

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