The Jordan Harbinger Show - 54: Barry Katz | How to Make Your Mark in the Funny Business

Episode Date: June 12, 2018

Barry Katz (@barrykatz) is a talent manager, producer, and podcaster (Industry Standard) who has discovered and represented some of your favorite comedians including Dave Chappelle, Whitney Cummings, Jay Mohr, Bill Burr, Wanda Sykes, Nick Swardson, Tracy Morgan, Darrell Hammond, and Louis C.K. What We Discuss with Barry Katz: Discover what it takes to be one of the best talent evaluators in America and how we can begin to hone the subset of skills we need to find the best in others. Uncover why most people, even high-achievers, overcomplicate winning, and what we can do to simplify our mindset while ensuring we’re doing the right type of work to master our craft. Explore some of the lessons Barry has learned from his clients, and how we can apply these lessons from comedy and high-profile careers to our own lives. Talent versus hard work. How to really get your resume noticed (in show business or otherwise). And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. On this episode, we'll be talking with my friend Barry Katz. This guy is, he is a trip. There's really no getting around it.

If you ask the average person on the street, who's had the widest reach in comedy over the last 30 years, surely you're going to get many different answers. Dave Chappelle, Bill Burr, Louis C.K., Dane Cook, Whitney Cummings. Okay, no one's saying Dane Cook. They've all had career moments, though, that set new standards in the business. but instead of looking at any one of them, let's say individually,

how about instead looking to a person who has had significant influence on all of them and many, many more? That person is Barry Katz. He discovered Dave Chappelle as a teenager, just kept picking up the next big thing over and over again for years, including the names I mentioned earlier as well as Tracy Morgan, Jay Moore, Daryl Hammond, Wanda Sykes, and many, many more. Today, we'll discover what it takes to be one of the best talent evaluators in America and how we can begin to hone the subset of skills we need to find the best in other people and ourselves. Of course, we'll also uncover why most people, even high achievers, overcomplicate winning,

and how we can simplify our mindset while ensuring we're doing the right type of work to master our craft, and we'll explore some of the lessons Barry has learned from his clients and how we can apply these lessons in comedy and high-profile careers to our own lives. Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways here from Barry Katz. The fee, as always, for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. And the worksheets, that's how we make sure that you find something useful in every episode.

The link to those is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. All right, here's Barry Katz. So I was trying to research you, which is kind of, it's easy, but it's hard because there's so much information out there that you end up getting lost in some of it. And a friend of mine who's at Comedy World Adjacent, he worked on a sitcom with Steve Byrne called Sullivan and Son. Of course, Steve just called me yesterday. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Are you still working with him? I'm not working with him, but I did a podcast with him. I'm very friendly, and he actually is producing a movie and called me about it because I've obviously worked on a lot of movies. And he's a great guy. I just did his podcast. without him actually.

He wasn't even there. The gentleman's dojo. He wasn't there. We were supposed to call him from Vegas, but we all know what happens in Vegas. Yeah. So he overslept. Is that the story? In quotation.

Yeah. Air quotes, overslept. So I call my friend Caleb and he says, all right, well, what you have to know is Barry is one of the best talent evaluators in America. And I said, great. All right. Well, I won't be self-conscious about that at all. But you started off as a stand-up yourself, as a talent yourself.

But why did you go into management? I mean, when you think about stand-up, it seems terrifying. It seems really hard. But I'm not sure that managing talent is any easier than just being funny yourself. I think that if you have in your mind that something's terrifying, then it's going to be terrifying. If you have in your mind that it's going to be incredible and extraordinary, it's going to and be incredible extraordinary. It's just how you approach everything.

So I think that I love stand-up, and I love doing it, and I was able to go on stage and get laughs. I never had a problem with that. What bothered me was stand-up, it's almost like you're a surfer, and the audience are the ocean and the waves. There's no two waves that are the same, and there's no two audiences that are the same. the same. It's amazing. So what would happen is I'd go

on and I'd kill and it'd be like, wow, this is amazing. And then the next night you go on and you do very good, but then there'd be certain jokes that they didn't get. And then next night you'd kill again. And then the next night it would be

just okay. And then the next night you'd bomb and there'd be crickets and tumbleweed flying around. You'd be like, what happened? I'm doing same thing. And psychologically, I didn't like that. I didn't like the fact that I felt like I didn't have as much control over the art form as I wanted to have because it was me and one mic working with a group of people that could be 50, it could be 100, it could be a thousand. And to

me, that was psychologically difficult to handle. And I thought to myself, when I book a show, you know, when I ask comedians to go on the show with me and I book them and I don't work, I feel better. I feel better when I'm doing things for them. I feel better when I'm creating opportunities for them because then I control the variables and they go in and they have to figure out how to win. I don't have to figure out how to win. I've done my job. I've gotten them where they need to go. I've created the opportunity.

And it's up to them to either take that opportunity and crack open the door and kick it in or just gently knock on the door and say, eh, you know what? I'll come back tomorrow. And so I think that's why I moved into the other side of the business. And I lingered in it for a while. I hosted shows for a long time because I felt like if I could host a show, then if things didn't go well in between a comedian I could just bring them up and then just reset the next time and see if I could kill on that one.

And so I turned out, I felt like I was a really good host in Boston where I was doing comedy. And then in New York for a short time when I opened the club in New York, I can still remember myself saying as I introduced Dave Chappelle, he's 18. He's 18 years old, everybody. Dave Chappelle. And just making everybody laugh even then. Yeah, so you must have discovered him as a teenager. I mean, well, literally as 18, he's a teenager, but I mean, even younger. I mean, when did he start comedy?

I think he started when he was 15 or 14 in Washington, D.C. And your friend, Caleb, that is very humbling what he said. And it's very emotional because I think everybody, as you grow in any business you're in, you want to make your mark. You want to make an impact and you want to figure out how to do it. And that's why when I look at you and Jen, I'm just blown away. And that's why I spent time talking to you beforehand because you started at zero, zero. There were no listeners.

There was nothing. There might not even be any now. Well, with me on the show, probably. But the thing is there was nothing. You started with nothing except a vision of what you wanted. And millions and millions of people listened to you. And I know why, because I listened to you. But I feel like when I started, I wanted to be part of the group.

And then I realized that this was a group of misfits. comedians are broken people. And I would say that if they're all sitting here collectively with me. I would never say anything that I wouldn't say in front of them. It's not a bad thing to have adversity and to have, you know, divorce or death or alcoholism or drug abuse or different things that you've gone through or failure. That's, that breaks you. But when you're broken, you get to the next level. I look at what happened to you with your past show.

Many people would have said, you know what, I'm out of here. I can't take this as too stressful. And maybe it is too stressful. But no one knows. No one knows in the audience what you're going through. You and your wife are going through. You just say, you know what, I'm just going to keep going. I'm going to ride the wave on this next journey.

and I'm going to be more successful than I was before, and you're going to be in a situation where you're going to laugh and you are actually going to send those people from that other show, fruit baskets, thanking them, that they did that to you, because now you're in a situation where you're happier, you're more fulfilled, you have more control, and you're not worried about anything else.

So when your friend says that about me of being a talent evaluator, I didn't set out to be a talent evaluator. I didn't, you know, I wasn't in college in Boston University saying, hey, listen, can I get some courses on talent evaluation? And I'd love to tell you that it's a skill that I went to school for and that I killed myself studying for. But what I found when I started getting, into comedy, something started happening to me.

And again, it's hard to quantify because if I tell you in your audience, you're going to think I'm crazy, but it was like this six cents, this almost psychic thing that was happening to me. And I don't know why it was happening then. The first time it happened, I believe, and this is before I started managing, I was doing stand-up comedy in Boston. And I remember I was doing really well. And I was in an open mic night at the Charles

Playhouse, a place called The Comedy Connection. God. I haven't talked about this in a long, long time. And I'm getting ready to go on and right there getting ready to go on.

And I could feel a host about to introduce me and there's a tap on my shoulder I turn around. I can't see. anybody. I'm still focused and there's another tap on my shoulder. I turn around. I look down. And there's a young kid, a teenager, it looked like a South Park kid in real life. He was wearing a hunter's hat, you know, the red plaid thing with the ear covers down, a hunter's jacket, one of those black belts, Hunter's pants, Elmer Fudd boots. And he reads, and he reads, reaches over and he puts his little hand out and he says, hi, my name's Bob Cat.

I'm going on after you. Good luck, Barry. And I'm like, okay, good luck, Bob. Cat. And I went on and I had like one of the greatest sets I ever had in that place. I mean, I killed harder than I had in a long time. And I went to the bar, this was a bar in the room in the back, and I pass him and I say, good luck, Bobcat. And I'm thinking as I sit down, man, this fucking guy has no chance.

Yeah. He's never going to follow me. I mean, I feel so bad. I feel so bad. And I sit down and he gets on stage. and the microphone was high. The host was tall, I was tall. And they introduce him, and he runs up there in a frenetic pace,

and just pacing around. He's grabbing his pants leg, you know, with his, like, the fist. And he's trying to hold himself from shaking. And he's looking at the mic stand, and it's right in front of him, and the mic's up. And he's looking up at the mic, and he's like, um, and he brings the mic down. And then he screamed that scream.

And the crowd went fucking crazy. And he's like, ah, shut up. Shut the fuck up. I don't need you to. My name's Bobcat. I lost my job. And I'll never forget this like it was yesterday. I can't believe this is channeling through me now.

I can't. Wow. I lost my job. I didn't really lose my job. Just when I go there, there's this new guy doing it. Crowd goes crazy. I'm watching white people bob up and down like it's deaf jam. It's incredible.

I've never seen the crowd do that. And he's going through his whole routine. And in this character, the character of a person that I did not meet, I met this sweet, young kid. and he's killing. And then he ends his cell. I'll never forget this. It's like, he's like, I lost my girlfriend.

I didn't really lose my girlfriend. It's just when I go there, there's this new guy doing it. I'm looking for roommates. Good night. Runs off stage, like half of the crowd standing ovation. White comedians. in comedy clubs that do showcases do not get standing ovations. And I saw this kid and I said to myself and him,

I said, you're going to be, you're going to be a huge star, man. I didn't even know what a huge star was probably at that time. I'm in an open mic night in Boston. But I loved what he did and I loved there was something about him. But I was a naive kid. And I said, listen, is that true? You're looking for roommates? He says, yeah, I don't have a place to stay.

I said, well, I'm an RA at Boston University. And I can have you stay there. I'll clear out the broom closet. And there was a big closet there. I clear it out. I have an extra bed. You can stay there. And I'll get you a meal pass.

And he stayed there. and he stayed there all semester long and we did shows together and and that was the first instinct that I had that something's going to happen and at 19 years old he did letterman did letterman at 19 and he killed on letterman like I'll never forget he went to the couch and he had these drawings like that were drawn like a five-year-old kid. And he's on the couch with Letterman. Letterman's like, hey, Bob, what's new in your life? Dave, I did these drawings before I came here. I wanted to show you my artwork. This is my house, and it would be a picture of a house,

picture like a five-year-old drawing. This is my dog here in front of the house. And there was a picture of the dog. and then there was the picture of the house, and then there was just red, like, all drawn in for the third picture. And this is a picture of my dog after I hit him with the lawnmower. Oh, no. Oh, my God. And then he said, Dave, you think we could go bowling?

And Dave's like, yeah, Bob, we'll go bowling. We'll be right back after these messages. In Boston, when I decided I want to manage, there was an 18-19. year old kid that I loved and adored. And he was brilliant. And I knew I wanted to represent him right away. I knew he was going to be huge. And that was Louis C.K.

And so Louis was the kind of guy. You ever see that photo of Steve Jobs? And I think there's one in the Bel Air Hotel here, a huge one, where he's just sitting Indian style with the first computer, that square beige thing. Louis had one of those. Louis was always working, always writing, always performing. And I loved him. And I always thought like he could do great things.

And he was so good to me. And I'll never forget when Jerry Seinfeld was coming into town, he was going to do a tour of 10 venues. And I called Jerry because I knew Jerry from going to New York. and I told him I wanted to submit this kid who he'd really, really like. And I also called George Shapiro as manager. And I sent a videotape back then it was videotape to each one of them. FedExing a VHS tape or something. Yes.

And Jerry loved it. And he hired him for 10 concerts across New England. And Louis was like 18 opening up for him. And that's the next thing where you. you know you're doing something, you identify somebody, and then somebody who's the top comedian in the world says, you know, I can pick anybody to open up for me, but I want that guy. And that's the next validation where you know. So for your audience and anything you do, your hope is you pray that you can do something

once. And then you pray that you can recreate it. And then if you can recreate it again and again and again, first time you do it, eh, anyone can do that. Second time, well, that's a fluke. Third time, ah, he's lucky. But for me, I've been fortunate where I've identified probably 15 artists that have done really great stuff. And some, some I don't even manage. Like, like I remember last comic standing. I saw a tape of Josh Blue, a comedian with cerebral palsy. And I was just blown away because I used to work with disabled kids and adults.

Yeah, I heard that. And I went to the first meeting at last comic standing. I'll never forget. And I wasn't really. well love there because I was on the side of the comedians. I had to sign a 67 page contract that I wouldn't you know do anything wrong and I just be but I was an executive producer with Jay Moore and Peter Engel who created saved by the bell and we had a great run and I remember getting the first meeting and I took the DVD you know was in a CD uh case jewel case they call those yeah and I took it

I was at the end of the table right before the meeting started. They said, we're going to start the meeting now. And I took the DVD and I flinged it. And it was spinning around in the middle of the table and stopped. I said, that's the guy who's going to win the show this year. That guy's going to win the show. No doubt about it. And they said, Barry, you don't have a vote.

Okay? You don't have a vote. So you don't have to say he's going to win. I said, I know I don't have a vote. but that guy's going to win and he won. And so I've always had this thing from that moment with where Bob Goldthwaite, and I've never identified that, and as you should know for you as an interviewer, I've never identified the first moment that it happened until now.

I didn't know when it happened, but now I know that's when it happened. And so, and then it just kept going and I can see anybody and I can, And it's almost crazy to think, but it's like the dead zone, the original movie with Christopher Walken. I can shake somebody's hand as a comedian. I can see the future. I can see what's going to happen. And I remember I was having lunch. I guess you could call it lunch at Real Food Daily with Chappelle.

And his actually, his wife was there as well. and I sat down and I could tell the story from his perspective. He says, Barry, do you know what month it is? I said, Black history, I don't know. He said, no, man, it's 25 years ago that you told me something in a comedy club when I met you the first time. He said, do you know what you said to me? I said, I remember it like it was yesterday. My comedy club manager, Jason Steinberg, saw you on a Monday night.

You came up from D.C. And he said, you should see this kid on Tuesday. And I came to see you. And before the show, I shook your hand. And I said, you're going to be one of the biggest stars in comedy. You're going to change the face of the way the world looks at comedy. You're going to be, you're going to have specials that are going to win awards. You're going to create television.

television shows that are going to break records and no one's going to be able to stop you. You're just going to be so huge. You're going to be doing shows for audiences that you can't even believe how many people are coming, multiple shows. And I finish saying that at the table. You know when somebody slaps a table when there's dishes on and then the dishes and things shake and people are looking around? And he gets kind of like, I don't know, he gets like, kind of like, not angry,

but just fire up. He's like, that's right, Barry. That's right. And it haunts me. It haunts me every fucking day. I'm like, Dave.

See, I just sitting down here. It's okay. He's like, and then he got into solemn Dave, and he was like, I'm sorry, man,

it's just, every time I think about that moment, I say to myself, how the fuck did he know? Yeah. And so that sums it all up. He must have been pretty surprised. I could see why that would have haunted him because it's like even he didn't know.

And that's kind of what you had said in an article that I'd read while I was looking at, you know, actually let me retake that because I don't know where I saw this. Somewhere you'd said being a manager is about being a dream maker. You make a list, we'll tick off the boxes if I don't get it done. Fire my ass is what you'd said. And that's a lot of pressure for you. But it sounds like you know who's going to be a talent beforehand. And of course, some of this, if you ever been wrong and thought, this person's going to be great and then, you know, fail.

Because you got a string of wins behind you. Louis C.K., who, by the way, I heard lent your car to Sarah Silverman, who then lost it. That's right. My first car was a 67 Camero. And I was going away, and I lent him the car in the York. And Sarah, another person who I didn't manage, but, you know, I can't even tell you the list of people that I identified that were extraordinary. Sarah, I mean, she's to come out to L.A. and stay in an apartment that Jane Moore and I had. I mean, Sarah, to this day, is such an incredible artist.

And what's odd is I think people talk about how beautiful and glamorous she is. And she's always been beautiful and glamorous even when she was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and converse all-stars. And every comedian in New York was in love with Sarah Silverman. And what's odd is that, and I'm not just saying this, it's like, I guess back then I really didn't understand the dynamics between men and women. I was like a really, I guess I was just a slow person, but I never really looked at it that way. I never looked at her that way like they did. I just looked at her like, God, she's so funny. She's got such an original take.

So I think that he really was enamored with her and let her borrow the car and then it got towed. And he was afraid to tell me he got towed. And then like a month later, I asked, can I have my car back and go to Boston? I don't know how to tell you this, Barry, but. the car got towed. I'm like, okay, well, Louie, that's okay. Just tell me where it is and I'll go get it. He said, I tried to go get it, Barry.

I'm like, why? Well, where is it? After 30 days, they, um, they sell it and, uh, they sold your car, Perry. They auction off your car. They auction off your car. That I paid $200 for when I was probably 16 years old. So, so I take it at some point. You've got a, like a little note that says, ask Louie.

for a new car. I never asked him for a new car. I never got upset about material possessions. My mother always told me that, you know, don't worry about material possessions. They're all replaceable. Just worry about your relationships with people and how much you can garner from a symbiotic relationship with human beings until they're not around anymore. And you never know how long somebody's going to be around.

because my mom had double tragedies where she was married and her first husband died of 30 and my father died at 37 when I was four. And so that was what I grew up with and that was my adversity seeing her sadness and her because I look at you and your wife and the way she talked about the men in her life, and especially my father was all about love and that he was taken too early and she didn't want anybody else. She just wants that memory. And so when I actually, not to bring the podcast down, no, it's okay. But I got married in Boston when I was in Boston to a girl when I was 26.

And she passed away eight months later. Wow. And so she was 23. How? Just a car accident or something like that? She became anorexic and she couldn't fight it anymore. And she got down to like 85 or 90 pounds and we tried everything and she had a heart attack and she died. So I, it's odd.

You know, life. My mom used to say you make plans and God laughs. Yeah. And so I was doing really well in Boston. And we were working together a little bit like you guys are. And when that happened, it's sort of like derailed me. And again, I really didn't know, you think you have your whole life ahead of you. And then it's gone.

And then I didn't want to meet anybody else or go out with anybody else because I had the vision of my mom losing two partners. So I'm thinking, okay, if I meet somebody and go out with them, I'm going to kill that one. Oh, God. That's a lot of negative pressure to put on it. Well, everybody I date ends up in some sonnet. But the way fate is, like you talked about, and again, it's your great interviewer, is that fate and your audience probably knows this more than anything. It takes you in ways you can't imagine. So that happened, and it was a horrible tragedy.

But I never would have gotten in my car and drove to New York and gotten an apartment in New York and wanted to start my life over if that hadn't happened. I would have just been a local Boston guy trying to make it big, and I never would have grown to the professionally and personally like I have. And so those things happen, just like your past show. I know you can't compare it with death. But it is a death of part of your show that you work so hard on. You gave your whole life to.

And then all of a sudden one day, guess what? That's gone. What do you mean it's gone? I've done 600 shows. What do you mean? It's gone, buddy. You don't own it anymore. Well, can I just go back and look at it?

No. Well, can I just see where I use? No. Well, can I have the take? No. Well, can I have the Revit? No. You got to start over.

And that's what's happened to you. And that's what happens to most people. And if they look at it and they identify that, I always look at something bad happening as like something. I know it's odd to think, but it's something great happening. I always look as at a no as. always a temporary yes. I've had so many professional and personal hits against me, but you just got to keep going. You just got to keep getting up and that's always what I love doing.

I only have one thing that I really honestly want. It's as corny as it sounds. I just want to be able to look at the ocean when I wake up. I don't care if I'm living in a tent on the ocean. mansion, a hill, a van down by the river, wherever it is. I just need to be able to see the ocean. And if I can't, I'm going to be miserable. I don't care what kind of car I have.

I don't care what kind of place. I just want to be there because it calms me because I didn't get to see the ocean until I was a teenager. And so once I saw it, I always knew I wanted to be around it. Well, mission accomplished. This place is a pretty good place to view the ocean from with the vineyard over here for those of it, for anybody who's not in this room right now, which is everybody listening, you got a pretty decent view here. The whole ocean, or the whole ocean view with the vineyard over there and they're making some wine outside. So if there's any noise, it's guys making or growing vines and managing all this stuff for you, which is pretty grand.

You must walk around here on your property that you've just moved into, what, 18 months ago? and think, okay, I've come a pretty long way from owning a club in Boston, managing people who lose your car, all the rejection that comes in show business, though, you can't really escape. It seems like show business, comedy, whatever, it's an exercise in being told no, facing rejection. How do you, what do you advise your clients about this? Because, or is rejection really a filter of who's going to eventually make it? rejection is normally about who's going to make it, but let's face it, there's rejection for people who never make it.

I think it's about the psychology of going through it and knowing that you can come out on the other side. I will share something with you that I probably don't want to share, but again, since you're emotionally sucking it out of me with your great style. I wake up every morning and I think to myself, it's over. It's all going to be over. You know, if you don't get your shit together today and if you don't do great things for the people and the projects you're working on, you might as well just pack it up bearing live in your car. And I know that's unrealistic and it's silly.

And I would never recommend anybody do that. I think it would be a horrible thing for anybody to live their life that way. But for me, it's my way of artificially driving myself. I'm not going to, it's not going to be over. I'm always going to be able to identify somebody who's going to do great things. I'm always going to be able to produce television shows and, I'm always going to be able to produce movies. I was fortunate enough just recently to produce a movie called Misery Loves Comedy with, you know, people like Amy Schumer and Tom Hanks and Judd Apatow and Larry David and, you know, Jimmy Fallon.

And it's like, I know that things can always happen. I know that. With my podcast, it's the industry standard. Again, you started nothing. Everybody tells you not to do it, just like they told you not to work with your, with your wife. Everybody told me not to do, Barry, you're a manager. You don't, you don't do podcasts. I'm like, well, I mean, something happened that there's a lot of response.

No, Barry, just because you did Jay Moore's podcast and it was the number one podcast in the world that day. And you did, you know, 10 other podcasts in the next 20 episodes and there were five million people that that that doesn't matter bury you know where the bodies are buried don't do the podcast i'm like well let me talk to lawyers don't talk to lawyers i've talked to them they'll still say the same thing agents managers nobody look at all the podcast do you see a manager doing a podcast no do you know why because managers don't do podcasts you know i'm like well why shouldn't i be able to do this. Why can't I do something that they said, number one, Barry, what happens if your show is more

popular than your artists? And I said, well, I mean, I would hope they would understand. I'm just going to do something to, I'm just doing something to help people. That's all I want to do because I get in these meetings with network presidents. You know, you sit down with the president of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, and you go in your car and you actually sit there. like you're on some kind of edible that went wrong. And you're thinking to yourself,

oh my God, I can't believe I was the only one who was in that room to hear what he had to say. Wouldn't it be great if everybody could hear about the journeys of these people and how they made it and how they took the hits and where to go? And their philosophy how to go and do things. And that's the reason why I did it. And again, I didn't know it was going to be as successful as it was. I wanted it to be. But to keep on the theme of what we're talking about, it's like, I, for everybody out there,

you just have to keep going. I always say the people, I love my assistants and I love interns as well. It's an incredibly powerful thing because you're, You're sitting with somebody who essentially is where you were. But yet I have all the knowledge and experience of what happens in the journey. And they don't. And I love being in a position where I can help somebody get to the next level. Even its most simplest form.

Like one of the things that I like to talk about with my interns and also with anybody is, if anybody out there is looking for a job, let's say. They're out of a job and they're like, I don't know if I'm, or you're coming out of college. Can I get a job? Am I going to be able to get the job I want? Or you just got fired and it's like,

oh, am I going to be able to get a job, whatever? How am I going to do it? I always tell them this technique, which I think I never had. But it can't fail unless you, you know, literally go in their office and you go to the bathroom on the floor or whatever it is. So you think about our business and acting and stand up or podcast or anybody out there doing anything,

whether you want to be a 7-Eleven manager or a hotel receptionist or a whatever, work on Wall Street. You want to get a job somewhere. you identify 20 companies that you feel you would love to work at. So as you're identifying them, you're thinking to yourself with almost like a true serum in your veins. Okay, if I had all the money in the world and I had the health of myself and my family, but I have to go to work for 50, 60 hours a week doing a career, what is it going to be?

Not a charity thing with my money. My money is not there. I have it. I can use it any way I want, but not for this working position. What would you be doing? And most people know what they would want to do. And I tell them to identify that and go for that. Now, a lot of times they think to themselves, well, you know, but I'm in this other job.

But the fact is you can work on. something while you're in another job. So I tell them to go, and then I tell them to compose a cover letter to those 20 companies and do the research on those 20 companies. And in your cover letter, identify the things about the place. So in other words, let's say you want to be in film production. And Lionsgate is one of the places. So in your letter, you say, hey, I loved 310 to Yuma or 310.

Yeah, I know that. Something like that. Whatever it is. I loved your leprechaun movies, whatever it is. I know that you might feel they were tacky or whatever, but I love them. Or I really enjoyed Monsters Ball. And you're the company that I've identified that I think is extraordinary. And I really want to work with your company.

And each letter, you do a personal letter like that about that. And then you put your resume in and you make great letterhead with you, you know, something unique and original that's you that everything's on. And then you get three letters of recommendation from people that when somebody reads it, they want to cry at such a great letter recommendation. And there's three of them in there. And then you go down to FedEx and you take 20 envelopes from FedEx. I know it sounds like stealing.

I'm sorry. And you take the FedEx lips and you bring them home with you. And you put these things inside all these FedExes. Well, I don't have the money for. FedEx. Perfect. You take it, you fill out the FedEx things, you put them in, you bend up the envelope, you take some magic marker and some things, get your overalls on and a hat and take a drive at all these locations and go up to the front desk and say, hi, I'm Joe, I work in sewage next door. This came by accident here. This is for Doug Herzog at your

company could um here um it came to me by accident everybody opens a fedex that's a good point because it's a $40 message no one's going to throw out a $40 message everybody opens it and they read it and so you got 20 of those out there what are the chances you're going to go 0 for 20 you could fail 90% of the time. You can fail 19 out of 20 you don't get a response on, but you're going to get a response on one. And then you're going to go in the room and it's also about the preparation. Just like any career, just like what you do.

You're so prepared. You have your iPad. You've got everything. And you can just go in and do research on this guy, the company, listen to podcasts with the person, listen to whatever it is. So when you go into the interview, you can even go on YouTube and find the, you can even go on YouTube and find the greatest interviews in the world that people did where they got hired. Just like if you're trying to get on SNL, if you're an actor and I've had six clients on

Saturday Live and somebody who hosted twice, you have the evidence. You have Will Ferrell's test. You have Jim Brewer's test. You have, you know, all these people's tests. You can study them frame by frame. And you can study the people that didn't get them. and you can take anything to the next level, everybody has that ability. We're not brain surgeons.

If you're a brain surgeon, I have no advice for you. I have absolutely no advice for you because you cannot fail. You cannot make one mistake your entire career or your career is over. You don't even have a second chance unless you want to work in Zimbabwe. you don't have anything one mistake we're lucky in in this world a lot of most professions we can make mistakes and come back we can be fired from the job at the restaurant for you know touching somebody's eggs and then we can go to the next restaurant and nobody knows about it and we can reset and start over and so with talent management and production. I can do a television show that goes or gets to the next level and gets on television,

but then it gets canceled. Oh, crap, it got canceled. Well, then develop another one and get out there with another one and do it. Oh, that film didn't do that well. Okay, well, let's do another film. Well, that podcast, that ratings on that one wasn't that great. Great. Let's do another one. And so that's the advantage that we have or any your listeners have when they think like, oh, what's going to happen? I have to share this one story with you. It's really odd. But it's fascinating. I met this woman and I didn't know what she did.

I just met her. And there was something about her. There was like a darkness about her. and I met her sister and there was a light about her sister. And I came to find out through talking to the person that had a little bit of the darkness in them. When I say darkness, you know that thing that you just feel like. There's people who walk in the room and you go, ah. And then there's people that walk in the room and the hair on the becky, your next thing is up.

Yeah. And then there's some people who they walk in the room. and they make their mark in the room, but you can tell they're going through some stuff. So you're not, you're not feeling like the hair on the back, your neck is, and that was what this person was like.

And so I asked her what she did for a living when her sister wasn't around. She said, I'm a dancer. I said, your dancer, what am you? Like a euphemism for?

Yeah. I said, I said, what am you, you're a stripper? She said, yes, I've been doing for eight years.

I said, wow, you make a lot of money doing that. She says, I have made a lot of money. I said, oh, where do you live? She said, I live with my mom. I said, you live with your mom. Yeah, I drove her car here today. I said, what about your sister? She's incredibly wealthy.

She owns two houses. She's amazing. I said, do you, what does she do? She said, she's a stripper too. Oh. We both do the same thing. We both doing the same thing for eight years at the same place. I said, well, why is she out two houses and all this money and you're living at your mom's house?

She said, because I always thought that it was always going to be there. So I partied hard. I drank. I did drugs. I bought things, clothes that I didn't need. And I threw my money away. And now eight years in, I realized that I can't do this anymore. I can't dance anymore.

My sister realized eight years in that she can't dance anymore, but she didn't party. She didn't do drugs. She wasn't into alcohol. She wasn't sleeping with guys. She wasn't spending money on stupid things. She was saving. And so even though the profession, people might roll their eyes, it's really a metaphor for life in every profession. You know people.

We all know people in the podcast world who don't prepare and slowly their shows go down. We know comedians who are great comedians but are hiding a drug addiction. And one day we get to new. that they've died and other people that they were with are thriving and going forward. We know great comedians or great musical artists that are doing great things, and we know others that are struggling. And if you can just stay to where you don't lose focus, and you can stay where you don't go in that path that takes hours away from your focus,

you're going to be in great shape no matter what you do and that's that's what your audience should know there's in my world in comedy there's guys at the clubs that they get to the club and their sole purpose is to fuck a girl by the end of the night who's come to a show there's a whole group of them that's all they do they get there early and they fight and battle until they can take a girl home. And then it starts over the next day. That takes hours and hours to do at the club. It's like old school.

Yeah. That's why the NBA and sports franchises love dating apps. They love dating apps. Now, they're so thrilled with them because a guy just texts a girl and she comes over. Guys aren't out to the clubs till four in the morning, partying, trying to find the girl, but in the comedy world, that's what a lot of places, that's what it's about. A lot of people complicate winning, not just in comedy in our world, but in many other situations.

So I know that you've seen a lot of talented people and a lot of, a lot of people that work really hard. There's a story that I, I think I might have heard on your show about Jordan Peel getting rejected from Saturday Night Live because he couldn't get out of his last few episodes of Mad TV. And then Bobby Lee saw him walking with a backpack one day. And he goes, what are you doing? And he goes, I'm walking from the bus stop because he didn't have a car.

And this is a guy who was just like a work machine. How much does talent matter versus hard work? Because it seems like in this industry or in any showbiz like industry, you have to have talent, but you also have to have hard work. But you kind of have this cliche of talented people blowing it and hardworking people have all these sort of sob stories about now. never making it. But how far can talent take you without the work? Obviously, some people ride talent for a while, but what's the reality really look like?

Look, again, I always like to say things that I could say if they were sitting in the room. And for everybody in every profession, but we're just talking about stand-up or sketch or comedy, there's normally a graph. And if you took every artist out there who's in comedy, And you did a graph and on one side was zero. They don't put any effort in at all. But these are the people that have, we all know. This is from Jim Jeffries to Chappelle to Jim Gaff again to Kevin James, Ray Romano. This is all.

And then on the other side, the graph is that's the person that works the hardest of anybody in the world of comedy. And then you have another graph, which is where if you polled all the comedians in the world and everybody in comedy, who was household names, you pulled them all, and zero was the people that that poll, that poll that was not known, that hidden poll that's in a box, nobody knows. Who would they say had zero talent and who would they say has the most talent of anybody? You know what even those? those two grabs. So in my mind, there's always going to be somebody like that. When I was swimming at Boston University, there was a kid. I was killing myself two times a day, 4.30 in the morning, 4.30 in the afternoon,

just to be a guy who could win a race or come in second every once in a while, be on a relay. This guy flopped around in the water all day long, won every race. Every race. and until the championship's where he got touched out, which is a metaphor for the way the world works. If we take somebody like Chappelle, okay, if I sat here with Chappelle, he would say that he's not getting up at 6 o'clock in the morning

until 2 o'clock in the morning, working with notebooks and sitting down and how am I going to do this and what's this happen and writing the sitcom script and the movie script and writing the book and doing the podcast. He's not doing that. The comedy channels through him. I went to see him at Radio City invited one of my sons and I to Radio City musical. One of God knows 20 shows.

And we get there, he gets on stage and he says, I'm sorry, everybody. I know you're expecting me to do the comedy that you want me to do, but last night this thing in Charlottesville happened, and I have to talk about this. And for 30 minutes, for 30 minutes, this guy who I met when he was 18 years old in the Boston Comedy Club, which is, by the way, is featured in crashing with Pete Holmes and Judd Apatow. this guy did 30 minutes of original material off the top of his head on Charlottesville and people were losing their minds he didn't work for like three months on that material he just did it and it killed because he's a genius and he can do anything he wants he can do anything he wants and he can do anything he wants and make it successful. He just chooses to do things the way he wants to do them.

Does he work as hard as Whitney Cummings? No. No. And he would say that. Whitney Cummings is one of the hardest workers in the world. And when I was representing her, I think she had three shows. I know she had three shows that she sold in one year that got on. Television shows?

two brogirls which she created with Michael Patrick King, the show Whitney, which she created on her own, and Love You Mean It, that was on E, which she created and worked with Chelsea Handler. This is the kind of person who takes a shower and probably puts her phone in a Ziploc bag. It's just, I never saw anybody so dedicated to doing things. And there were a lot of years where she did. get where she wanted to go. But she got there quicker than most people have ever gotten there.

And so the question is then, after you take the hits and the, you know, the show gets canceled, the other show gets canceled, two brokerals goes, you're a creator, you make millions of dollars, but you're not your face isn't on it. The question is, can you come back? Can you keep going? When Chappelle had that fallout when he went to Africa or wherever. re-went, can you come back? The key is, can you come back? And that dictates the talent. I find that hard work isn't always the indicator of whether you're going to make it big or not, because we've

all known people who don't operate that way, their work ethics are different. But if you have the talent, then you're in a situation where you can make it without killing yourself. I just interviewed Tony Rock for my podcast. This guy got an apartment, a crappy apartment on Pico, no car. Every night walked to the laugh factory

and sat there for six hours and studied stand-up comedians and hoped if he showed his face, somebody canceled, he'd get on. Wow. Just always doing that.

You can point to people in New York at the comedy seller. They're there every night. You look at somebody like Ray Romano. Ray Romano, one of the most successful shows in the history of the world. Everybody loves Raymond. The guy made $40 million his last year. Okay?

His last year, he made $40 million. What is he? Why does he have to do anything? But no, he wants to make his mark. He wants to know that he's not just known as, oh, Ray, everything's going wrong. He wants to know that people can look at him, and he wants to make a difference in the world. He will never say.

He would never say. I went up to when I saw him at Phil Rosenthal's house who created Everybody Loves Room. And Phil does a movie night. It's amazing. And he's a great artist, too. And if you ever get a chance to check out, Hammer, his podcast, or a show. Just an incredible guy. But you go up to Ray and you say, God, man, I loved you.

final. I was okay. I was okay. Ray, I saw the big sick. You, you, you, you were incredible. You know, I'm just, I'm just trying to do what I can to, you know, I'm trying to be okay. But you can see where he's really doing things. He's not just sitting back and saying whatever.

David Copperfield, who I interviewed. The guy's 60 years. years old. He owns 11 islands. He is the fifth wealthiest entertainer in the world behind George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Oprah, and Michael Jordan. He does 638 shows a year. That's insane. Why? Why does he do that? Because he's He's a hard worker and he's talented and he wants to make his mark. There's no limit. There's no ceiling from anything like that.

It's just that's the way it is and that's the way it'll always be. So I think the answer to your question is, are they related? Of course they're related in terms of success. But there's always going to be anomalies like Dave Chappelle who do things. their way. And that's the way they do it. I mean, Chris Rock, even Dave's sitting here and that Chris worked together. They have an amazing time together. But their work ethic is completely different. Chris will go on the road for like, I mean, he'll just be working stuff out, tires. You don't see with tambourine, when he got his Netflix deal, you don't see the Netflix special coming right out.

I got to get this one right out so I can get the next amount of money. he just waits till he builds the set the way he wants it and if you haven't seen tambourine you haven't seen comedy i mean it's it's it's it's it's just groundbreaking and you can tell how much effort he put in it and and he's also talented and he's putting effort in so you have to have the talent. You have to have the skill set to be able to do something. You're not going to look, Jordan, you're not going to go and somebody says, listen, I need you to be the head guy working at IT, at Paramount, to put these things together.

You're not going to be able to do that. No matter how hard you work on that amount of time or whatever you do, you're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to make it. You have to study and put the work in. But on the other side of the coin, there are professions where you can walk in. And if somebody wants you to be a hotel manager and you've never been a hotel manager before, but if you have those personality skills and you know how to navigate with people, you can go in with no hard work or no training, but just be that kind of personality can take it.

So comedy is strange in that way, but I'll tell you this. And this is the last thing I'll say about this topic with your audience. If you're a musician or a singer, you can get standing ovations anywhere in the world, and you may not make it. Because there's so many musical artists. But if you're a comedian and you're doing the kind of comedy that Jim Jeffries is doing or Chappelle or Chris Rock, and you're in a bathroom in Guam performing for six guys in a urinal and that videotape comes out of that material, you're coming here and you're going to do really, really well.

I mean, just look at videos of comedians what does well. There's a reason why Jim Jeffrey's gun control bid has millions of views on YouTube. There's a reason why Bill Burr, What broke him was a bootleg filmed videotape of a Philadelphia show where everybody was getting boot off stage, including him. But he went right at them. He didn't give up. And it's amazing look at perseverance. Nobody knew who Bill Burr was.

He wasn't making his mark. But then the world said, hey, you got to look at this. Pass this on. Pass this on. Your show, Jordan. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. Your show isn't doing as well as it's doing just because you work hard or just because you have talent. Your show is doing well because you figured out a formula where people watch it or they look at it or they hear it.

And they say, you know, you've got to check out this Jordan Harbinger show. You're married to some. Your life partner is here right now because somebody passed it on to her. That's true. And so sometimes, you know, let's face it, you can chalk it up the hard work or talent. But for you, I see slight similarities to myself in this way. And somebody told me this about myself. I love this analogy.

they taught and it's the way you deliver the cadence of your voice they said to me they said when i listen to your show barry it's not about the words sometimes it's about what's in between the words the pauses the way you deliver the story or the word and they talked about japanese music and how you read the music from the spaces, not the lines. They talked about barcodes. People don't know this, but a barcode isn't read by the lines. It's read by the spaces. I did not know that, but it makes sense because it reflects the laser.

Yes. And so that's what happens, and that's what happened with you, and that's what can happen with anybody listening. You can, you and I sitting here were an example of two people who started with nothing. in the podcast world. And all we wanted to do was make an impact. All we wanted to do was give people something that they couldn't get where they were. All we wanted to do was help people not take the hits that we took.

And so they could get to the next level. And I'm so honored that I have the chance to sit here with you. I really, truly, I'm humbled that I get to be on your show. I'm getting kind of emotional about it, but just to be here with you and to be here with your wife and the energy that you bring, combined with the ocean. Yes, the ocean. We have the ocean. You can't lose there, and I'm very grateful to you.

Likewise, this has been wonderful. Really, thank you for your hospitality and for your generosity of spirit with all of these stories. There's so much more. We'll have to do another one at some point. That would be a dream. It was a huge honor to go to Barry's house. house and do this show. So great big thank you to him for that. And a lot of wisdom shared in this.

It's funny to see just how he's super kind, super goodhearted guy, obviously pretty sharp, and just has this sixth sense. I know he said it. And I hate not being able to deconstruct that further, but he really does have a sixth sense for what's going on. Who's going to be the next big thing? And part of that, of course, was managing that comedy club in the beginning, seeing a lot of people who had, quote, unquote, the gift and those that didn't. And also, finding, finding people with the right work ethic. That was what really stuck out for me was that the people who got it, they just work so hard. So again, great big thank you to Barry Katz. His podcast is called Industry Standard, includes interviews with some really great folks like David Copperfield,

Kevin Hart, Whitney Cummings, and a whole lot more. If you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Barry on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for this episode, which can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. Tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Barry Katz. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, if you want to learn how to apply everything you just heard from Barry today, make sure you go grab the worksheets, also in the show notes, at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. We've got our Alexa skill, if you've got an Amazon Echo or an Echo dot, or you'd just like to

mess around with those types of smart home things. We've got our Alexa skill at Jordan Harbinger.com slash Alexa. It'll give you show clips and little highlights from podcasts of mine that you've either heard or maybe are about to hear. And it's a good refresher or a good sneak preview of something that you've yet to get. So I like that. It shows up in the morning and the daily briefing. Jordan Harbinger.com slash Alexa will install it for you or you can go in your Amazon Echo app or Alexa app and install it by searching for my name. Jordan Harbinger. That's how you do that, apparently. This episode was produced and edited by Jason DePhilippo. Show notes are by Robert Fogarty.

Booking, Back Office, and Last Minute Miracles by Jen Harbinger. And I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Throw us a nice iTunes review. Hey, we share those with the team. Throw a unique nickname in there. Throw something funny in there. Those are always entertaining. We have instructions on how to do that at Jordan Harbinger.com slash subscribe. The whole team loves to see those.

So if you don't mind, don't forget to pay that fee and share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got lots more in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast. If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-dishwashing and go,

wait, what that actually happened? You got to subscribe to, what was that like? It's real people telling the most surreal moments of their lives, and they're not just giving you the highlights. They're walking you through it from the inside as the person who actually lived it, which means you're basically getting a front row seat to the chaos. One episode is about Scott getting locked up in a foreign jail for a crime he didn't commit.

Sure, Scott. Another is Sue's parachute failing. Wow, I'm surprised she was around to tell that story. And then there's Michael who was stabbed on a bus, which makes your commute instantly feel a little bit more relaxing. Do you anything? So if you want to hear some wild and inspiring firsthand stories, I invite you to check out what was that like.

Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Corrid. others. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through

line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.