The Jordan Harbinger Show - 540: Daryl Davis | A Black Man's Odyssey in the KKK Part Two

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

Daryl Davis (@realdaryldavis) is a musician, author, lecturer, host of the Changing Minds podcast, and anti-racism activist featured in the documentary Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America. [This is part two of a two-part episode. Make sure to catch part one here!] What We Discuss with Daryl Davis: How Daryl Davis, a black musician who was once told by a Ku Klux Klansman that he played piano "just like Jerry Lee Lewis," leveraged the encounter into a teachable moment that has led to more than 200 KKK members hanging up their robes for good. Why racism was such an unfathomable concept when Daryl first experienced it as a 10-year-old Cub Scout. How traveling around the world as a child with his diplomat father gave Daryl the tools he needed to sit down and relate to people vastly different from him. Why Daryl considers a missed opportunity for dialogue to be a missed opportunity for conflict resolution. The five values all humans have in common that Daryl uses to positively navigate (almost) any conversation. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/540 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. He thinks, man, I just had a three-hour conversation with a black guy. And we didn't come to blows. What that guy said about such and such, it makes sense.

or what he said about whatever is true. And then they're confused because they realize the truth came from a black person, which does not compute properly. So they began having a cognitive dissonance, which turns into a dilemma. Do I believe what that Darrell guy said, should I disregard his skin color

and believe the truth and change my ideological path? Or should I look at his skin color and continue living a lie? even though I know what he said was true. That's a struggle for them. And in most cases, they will follow the truth. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills

are the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional national security advisor, arms trafficker, or war correspondent. And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper, understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about it, we've got those episodes starter packs.

These are collections of episodes organized by topics that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the Jordan Harbinger show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start. That'll help you get started or if you want to help somebody else get started. Of course, I always appreciate that. Now, this is part two with Daryl Davis, the jazz musician who helps Klu Klux Klan members get out of the Klan by befriending them. Oh, and did I mention he's a black dude? So that's quite the feat there. He's starting with a little bit of a handicap trying to make friends with Klansmen,

but he's managed to do a great job. If you haven't heard part one yet, go back and listen to part one. That'll get you situated here for Part 2. If you're joining us for Part 2, welcome back. Let's dive right in. You don't seem to be offended by the racist and hateful commentary coming from Klansmen or other people, like, to your face, right? So how did you develop the ability to, what do you call it, compartmentalize that or not allow it to get to you?

How did you develop that? Because I know who I am. And you cannot define me unless you know me, you know. So I just meet this guy 10 minutes ago. He walks in the room to be interviewed. And he's telling me that I'm a criminal because, you know, black people are prone to crime. I asked the question, how can you hate me? You don't even know me.

And some of the answers are, you know, black people are prone to crime. Where's the evidence of that? Well, Mr. Davis, all you have to do is look at our prison system. There are more black people in prison than white people. What he's telling me is true as a fact. All right. So the data shows that. But he's not looking at the reason why there are more blacks in prison.

He's not looking at the imbalance in our judicial system that puts black people in prison for things that white people get to go home for or get shorter. sentences for or whatever. All he sees is there are more blacks in prison than whites, so therefore, blacks are probably more prone to crime than white people. That's the narrative than it fits. So I don't push back. I just listen to him. Right. Now, when he first walks in the room and sees me, his wall goes right up because I'm not the object of his affection, right? So I'm a black guy. That's why he joined the plan. So his wall is up. He's on the attack. His job is to let me know my place. My place is the place of somebody inferior. He is superior. He is the supremacist. I'm not supreme.

So, you know, he has to get that established. And so I'm prone to crime. I listen. He tells me that black people are inherently lazy, that we prefer to scam the government welfare system. We always have our handout for a freebie. I listen. And he goes on to say that black people are born with smaller brains than white people. The larger the brain, the more capacity for intelligence. The smaller the brain, the lower the IQ. So now he's calling me dumb. And he's saying that this is evidenced by the fact that black kids

year after year consistently score lower on the SATs than white kids. Again, this is true. All right? Absolutely true. He sees the data and he makes that narrative in his mind. He's not considering why. You know, where do most black kids go to school in the inner city? Where do most white kids go to school in the suburbs?

We know the suburban schools are much better equipped than the inner city schools. White kids who go to school in the inner city also score very low. Black kids who go to school in the suburbs score much higher. So it has nothing to do with the color of the child's skin or the size of the child's brain, but has everything to do with the quality of the educational system in which that child is enrolled. But, you know, he's not seeing all that. He's just seeing the data, the stats on the scores.

So he's convinced. And now, because I'm not pushing back, that wall is coming down. The temperature is coming down. Because he is so used to push back. You know, you call some black guy, you know, a criminal, call him lazy, tell him he's dumb with a small brain. You're going to get some pushback. I'm not pushing back.

I'm just, you know, letting him roll. And so his temperature is coming down. the wall's coming down and he's getting curious as to how I'm taking this. So if I were to push back when he first started doing this, his ears would be shut. He's going to shut me out. He don't want to hear what I have to say. But when the wall is down and he's curious as to how I feel about what he's saying, his ears are open.

So once he finishes exhausting all this vitriol, then I respond. It's my turn to talk. And he's ready to listen. However, I could go on the offense. I could say, no, you are the criminal. People like you are the ones hanging black men from trees, dragging them behind pickup trucks, blowing up their churches and all that kind of stuff. And I would be 100% correct. The clan has a vast history of that.

But if I did that, the wall will go right back up, EB. Right. So rather than go on the attack, on the offense, I go on the defense. I say, listen, man, I hear you. I hear what you're saying. However, I'm black. I don't have a criminal record. My mom and dad didn't have a criminal record.

As far as welfare goes, I've never been on welfare. My mother and father were never on welfare. I said, as far as my brain size goes, I've never measured it, but I'm sure it's the same size as everybody else's. And my SATs, they got me into college. See, I've already done my homework on this guy. I know he barely made it out of high school. So I'm not going to throw something in his face and say, I'm smarter than you.

I know that I have more intelligence in my little fingernail than he and his whole playing group put together. But I'm not going to throw that in his face. I'm going to say, you know, listen, my SAT T scores got me into college knowing that he didn't go. I said, so, you know, how do you explain that? And he has to think and come up with something. So what happens then is this. This has happened more times than I can count.

They go home. and they reflect on what transpired during the day, just like you will, just like I will, before we go to bed. And he thinks, man, I just had a three-hour conversation with a black guy, and we didn't come to blows. What that guy said about such and such, it makes sense of what he said about whatever is true. And then they're confused because they realize

the truth came from a black person, which does not compute properly. So they began having a cognitive dissonance, which turns into a dilemma. Do I believe what that Darrell guy said, should I disregard his skin color and believe the truth and change my ideological path? Or should I look at his skin color and continue living a lie, even though I know what he said was true? That's a struggle for them. And in most cases, they will follow the truth, and they will not overnight, but they'll change over time. Others will go to their grave being hateful, violent, and racist.

But you always want to know who you are before you go into one of these situations. I'm not going to let somebody who just met me 10 minutes ago define me as a criminal and whatever else. Now, if my parents were to tell me, Darrell, you know, I think you're prone to crime. You know, you're kind of lazy and you're also kind of dumb. I might believe them because they brought me into this world. They raised me. But not somebody just walks in my room. People give you their robes or have been giving you their robes when they leave the clan.

This is so interesting, right? It's a bit like trophies, but the people changing their minds and getting out is the real reward, I assume. Yeah, absolutely. Where do you keep those? I mean, I'm just imagining walking into your house and there's like this huge room with clan robes all over the place. And it's like, wait, Derek, this is your living room? I have one right here. Can I see it?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I keep a couple of them inside a closet. But the vast majority, I keep locked up off sight. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, here. This is one I was showing on another call. Wow. This is the symbol that all clan groups use. And, of course, you see the flags. Oh, yeah. Okay. This guy, he was a grand dragon,

the grand dragon from Maryland. The name was Robert White. Robert White went to prison for four years for conspiring to bomb a synagogue in Baltimore. He continued running the clan while he was in prison through his vice guy. And then when he got out, he took it back over and continued running it. A couple of years later, he went back to prison for assault with intent to murder two black men with a shotgun. Jeez.

All right. So he did three years for that one. So he spent seven years in prison. I contacted him right before he got out of prison the last time. And I didn't tell him I was black. And I told him, you know, I'm writing a book on the Klan. I'd like to interview him. He wrote me back. And then everything wrong with the world was because of the blacks and the blacks and the,

the Jews. The whole world would be a lot better without any of them, you know, all that kind of stuff. He was vehemently violent and vehemently racist. And he said, you know, we could meet, you know, when he got out in a couple months. And this was in November. And in December, he sent me a Christmas card, you know, that he had made in the prison because, you know, they don't sell him there. They got to make your own. And he was due to get out in February. In January, he writes me, and he's all upset. How come you didn't tell me you were black? So you sent some of his people to check me out somewhere. And they reported back to him that I was blacks. And now he thinks he's being deceived. I'm setting him up or whatever. I wrote him back. I said, listen, man, what difference

does it make you? You know, if you're going to tell me the truth, does the truth change? If you talk to a white person, then you talk to a black person? I said, all I want to know is, you know, is what you're thinking. So he said, okay, we did meet. And again, he explained the problem was black people and the Jews and on and on. We kept meeting, kept meeting. He began toning it down over time, not overnight, but over time. And he found. finally, you know, got out of it. As a clan leader, you don't get paid, per se. You might get a small stipend out of the dues, but you can't make a living. You can't pay your mortgage and your rent and stuff. Put your kids through school. You have to have a regular job. Grand

Dragon, Imperial Wizard, exalted Cyclops, Great Titan, these are all titles, which don't carry any money. So like Boy Scout leader, you have to have a regular job. His regular job, when he was doing that Senadob and stuff, he was a Baltimore City police officer. Wow. Oh, my God. Before he went to prison, obviously. Yeah.

Oof. Okay. And there were others, and there still are others on that force. Okay, it's very serious. What year was this? What year was this that he was... In the 80s.

Okay. In the 80s. I guess that gives me a little bit of comfort, but not like a ton? He was in it since the 60s. and when he got out, that was it. I had the uniform and the robe and some of the things that he gave me.

Wow. He and I became the best of friends. How do people even get into the clan these days? I mean, I assume recruiting is slowed down quite a bit. Well, recruiting, no, they're always trying to recruit, but now there's a lot of competition. There's so many other groups. When I first started this stuff, it was just the clan,

some neo-Nazi groups, some white-powered skinheads. And today you got the clan, the neo-Nazis, the white-powered skinheads, the alt-right, the oathkeepers, the proud boys, the boogaloo boys, the three-percenters, Church of the Creator, you know, all these other ones. And they're all, you know, trying to recruit. Because what's happening, Jordan, is this. This is what the media does not talk about, but this is what's happening in this country. Let me give you some background first. This country was built on a two-tier society. White supremacy at the top, slavery at the bottom.

That's what built this country. And as we progress through the decades, we progress like this. You know, maybe like this, but never like this is always this hierarchy thing. So for those of you who are listening and not watching, basically, hands are staying parallel with the gap in between them. So it's like, we're not closing the gap. We're not progressing on equal terms. we're just keeping the gap, maybe it's smaller than it was before, but the gap is still there. And it's just, we're progressing upwards, but not necessarily together at the same pace.

Correct. So when I was a kid, the black population in this country was 12%. Native Americans, 1%. Hispanic people, 2%. Asians, almost 3%. Oh. White people were around 84, 86% back then. Doing the math in my head and it's not working.

Yeah, okay. Got it. I'm trying. Oh, well, you want to add them up? No, it's not even important. I was just doing it out of habit. And it was like, is that $700? But then I was like, it's irrelevant.

No, no, then you have other. Other. Oh, yeah, right, right, right, sure. Now, that makes sense. I'm just naming the majority ones, Asian, the Native Americans, the Hispanics, the blacks, and the whites. You've got other mixes and things. Okay, so today, Native Americans remain at 1%.

Black people remain at 12.9, almost 13%. So we really have not grown. Asians have almost doubled, I think, 5.9 or 6%. Hispanics have more than doubled. You know, it's like 17. something percent. So if you just take 12% black and 17% Hispanic, that's 29% non-white right there. This is happening. And it is predicted that in the year, 2042, which is only two decades from now, 21 years from now, this country for the first time in history will be

50-50, 50% white, 50% non-white, which includes Asian, Hispanic, black, and other. When you have sat on the throne of power for 400 years, you don't want to get off, you know. Now, there is a large percentage of white Americans who say, you know, that doesn't bother me. That's evolution. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah, I already made some kids that are other. I don't know what to check. They're going to be like, there's not enough boxes or maybe there are too many.

I don't know. Dad, what do I check? I have some solutions for that, and I'm going to turn you on to a guy. You need to see his film. Eli Steele. I'll tell you about him in a second. So it's been able to those boxes. But there's also a large swat of the population that are getting freaked out about that.

They don't want to give up that throne of power that they've maintained for 400 years. All these groups are saying, come join us. You know, we're going to take our country back. You know, we're going to build that wall. We're going to send those people back to where they belong. What these people are telling me, the Klan, the Nazis, the alt-right, they're telling me, Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America or white genocide through miscegenation.

And they're freaked out about that. What they're freaking out about is that their identity is being slowly erased. Are you familiar with the term white flight? Yeah, I'm from Detroit. So I think that's almost probably where that might have even originated or at least that's an early example of it, right? Yeah, I've got to hook you up with my friend from Detroit, Jeff Scoot. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Daryl Davis. We'll be right back.

When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like, all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting check. out on the planet. Track your cha-chings from every channel. Ride in one spot and turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level.

Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. Back. Now back to Daryl Davis on the Jordan Harbinger show. I feel like I've heard of him because he was running like a Nazi group in Detroit a long time ago. Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. He had the largest neo-Nazi group in this country, the NSM National Socialist Movement.

He was in the group for 27 years. 25 of those 27 years, he was the commander, the leader of that group. Today he is out of that group. Wow. In part due to myself and a Muslim woman. Today he works very hard with his organization beyond barriers to help de-radicalize others in that movement and help prevent young people from joining these movements. He's a great guy to talk to, a very, very good friend of mine.

But anyway, back to White Flight, it barely exists today because anywhere you go now, the landscape has changed color so much. Anywhere you go, there's already somebody there who doesn't look like you. Yeah, yeah. Where are you going to fly to? Yeah, exactly. Where are you going to fly to now, you know? That airline doesn't go there.

So people are freaking out about their identity being erased. And so they're running and joining these groups that promise to take the country back. and send those people back to where they belong or get rid of them. And so when they go and join these groups and the group fails to take the country back, some of them get frustrated. And they say, you know what? If the Klam can't do it or the neo-Nazis can't do it, I'll do it myself. And that's when they go off solo and they go by themselves into a black church in Charleston, South Carolina,

and shoot and murder nine black people conducting Bible study. or they go to the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh and murder 11 Jews, or the Walmart in El Paso, or this Sikh Indian temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. You know, these are called lone wolves. And as we get closer and closer to this milestone, we're going to, unfortunately, we're going to see more and more of these lone wolves in this country, which is why they need to be addressed now. we have intelligence groups, organizations in this country that have operatives that can infiltrate

some of these groups and gather intelligence and report it back. You know, they fit the profile, they join as a member or whatever, and foil some of these plots. For example, a few months ago, you will recall the group in Michigan that was going to kidnap and murder the governor. Oh, yeah. We already had intelligence operators in that group posing as one of those people, which is how we got that intelligence and foiled that plot. However, while we have the ability to infiltrate some of these groups, there is no ability to infiltrate a lone wolf. That's only one person.

How do you get inside one person? You can't. So this is why, you know, we need to address this problem now. These people are becoming unhinged. That's what that insurrection was all about at the Capitol, just 20 minutes from where I'm sitting right now. You know, when you see somebody walking through the Capitol with the Confederate battle flag and a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt on, you know what it's about. It's not about tax reform or socializing health care or something. It's about something else. Yeah.

I saw that guy. When people are willing to sort of wear these t-shirts or sweatshirts that say these blatant slogans, I mean, they're not hiding it at all. And I think it's unfortunately, it's almost behind like the laughter curtain where you go, look at this guy's got like three T's. wearing a stupid t-shirt he probably made in his basement. You know, he looks like he hasn't showered in a week. So we don't think that guy's dangerous.

We just think that guy is such an inbred idiot. Yeah, but you know. We don't look at the fact that he's got 8,000 rounds of ammunition in his basement for the race war or whatever. Exactly. Rahoa, as it's called. R-A-H-O-W-A, R-H-W-A, R-H-O-A, R-H-W-A. I never heard that. That's the term for the race war.

It stands for a racial holy war, Rah-H-O-W-A. Oh, got it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, you know, if you remember back in the, what was the, the, 80s maybe when Russia invaded Afghanistan with their tanks and everything and these people were taking sticks and stones and throwing them at the tanks. We were laughing. You know, what are they going to accomplish throwing a rock at a tank or a stick at a tank? We laughed. Well, guess what?

Some years later. Yeah, those Soviets, they rolled right on out of there after a while. Yeah. Well, they rolled out of there after a while. But those same people who were throwing sticks and rocks at tanks are the same people who took down our two tallest buildings and put a hole in the Pentagon. So that's the same analogy as your person, you know, guy who doesn't look like he's had a shower for a week and he's in bread and whatever else. He's got 8,000 rounds of ammunition, as you put it. Yeah. This is not to be laughed at. It's been taken seriously. Yeah, it definitely should scare us. I mean, we see this now. We hear the talk all the time. People are shouting it from the rooftops. A lot of these groups are, and we're ignoring it.

which is at our own peril, of course. I thought it was interesting, though, in the documentary, the people that seemed to be the hardest on you and, frankly, the most disrespectful, refusing to shake your hand, yelling you, flying off the handle, not letting you talk, were actually these black activists, and I wonder what you make of that.

They were really hard on you in the documentary. Yeah. Well, let me address a couple things. One, they didn't know me, and they didn't really know my background or understand it, and didn't want to at the time. Okay, they hated me more than a white person because I looked like them. And they felt that I was a race trader, an Uncle Tom, an Oreo.

I was selling out. And I should be spending more time working with them, uplifting the black community than, as they put it, sitting down with my clan buddies or my clan friends and hanging out. They don't realize the importance of dialogue and communication. Let's say a clansman saw you out with a black girl. Maybe you're married to one or you're dating one or whatever. They would hate you more than her because you are of the supreme race and you have lowered yourself. You have defiled yourself to be out with that thing.

That's the mentality. You know, so you are a disgrace to your race. That's how they felt about me. If I were to open up a book or a magazine and I saw a picture of some black guy shaking hands with a guy in a robe and a hood, I have a visceral reaction. but me, I would turn the page and read the story to find out why this is happening. Oh, oh, I get it. Yeah. Wow, that's pretty cool.

They jump to a conclusion, don't turn the page, make their own narrative, and that's it. Right? Yeah. So a year later, they reached out to me, and we got together for dinner. And we sat down and we talked. They had seen me on interviews. They'd seen different things, and they were beginning to get it. And we agreed to work together.

because what they do is important, what I do is important. But the important thing is that we coordinate with each other. They're working in the systemic racism world. I'm working with individuals. But it all has to be done. Racism is a multifaceted thing. There's no one shoe fits all, right? You all do what you do best.

And so we agreed to work together, and we started to do that. Then about a year or so ago, the older guy, he fell off the wagon again and reverted back to the same mentality that you saw in the, in the film, unfortunately. But, you know, it happens. Let me address Black Lives Matter because they were of the Baltimore Black Lives Matter faction.

And I don't say chapter, I say faction. Because Black Lives Matter is not really an organization. It's a movement. And the founders had a great idea when they put it together. The idea, they had co-opted that from Martin to King and Rosa Parks in the bus boycott. Rosa Parks was not the first black woman

to refuse to give a receipt on the bus. There were others, but it didn't make news nationally. It only made news around Montgomery, Alabama. So what Dr. King wanted to do was put the national spotlight on it, so to put Montgomery in a fishbowl, and maybe that pressure would cause them to change those laws. All right, so that's what he did. It took a year of the boycott,

and lo and behold, the Montgomery bus lines changed their policies and blasts to somewhere they wanted to sit. It worked. So in 2013, in the wake of the Trayvon Martin killing murder, Black Lives Matter was founded. And the founders took that same idea of putting the plight of black men, who, for lack of a better term, were being murdered by white police officers for holding their wallet, holding their cell phone, whatever. They got to go to their grave, where white men in the same situation, either got to go home or go to jail. some of them got to go to Burger King on the way to jail. I'm talking about Dylan Roof, you know that story, right? Yeah, I didn't know he went to Burger King, but I guess that's...

When they arrested him and put him in the car, he said he was hungry. The cops took him to Burger King and bought him a hamburger and then took him to jail to process him. That is, yeah, that is something. That is really... So that needed to be spotlighted. I would imagine you've seen some serious clans. craziness, right? I mean, they burn crosses and things like that on people's lawns, but I know they also do that, like, in private, and it's probably two different rituals, right? Yeah, okay, let me give that to you.

When they take a five or ten foot cross and put it on your lawn and set it a flame, that is called a cross burning, and that is a threat. It's meant to intimidate you. The message is, we know who you are, cease and desist, move out, or the next time we come, we mean business. That's is a warning. We know who you are. You're a black family in a white neighborhood. You're a gay couple. You are a Jew in a Gentile neighborhood. Whatever the case, you're gay, whatever it is, they don't like, they're warning you. We know who you are. Stop, move out. Or we're coming back, and we're probably going to do something to your house. All right. When they have their rallies, they have a 20 or 30 foot cross. Both crosses are wrapped in burlap. The burlap has been soaked

and what they call Clan Cologne, which is actually diesel-fueled kerosene. Yeah, and they set it aflame. When they do this at the rally, it's a ceremonial thing, and they're all in their robes and hoods. And what happens, I've seen this many times, they have their torches, Klansmen and Klanswomen. They make a big, wide circle around this tall cross.

They've got these torches that are on fire, and they move around the cross clockwise. And then one of the leaders, the Grand Dragon or the Imperial Wizard, will say, Klansman halt, and they'll all stop. Clansmen face the cross and they all turn in. And then he'll say, for my country, and they all repeat, for my country, and they bow. For my God, for my God. For my race, for my race. For my clan. Clansmen approach the cross and they all close in around the base

of the cross with their torches. Clansmen light the cross and they throw their torches down at the foot of the cross and whoosh, this thing goes aflame. And then they give some speeches and all that kind of stuff, and then they have condiments, and that's the end of the rally. Wow. So that's a cross lighting and a cross-burning.

This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Daryl Davis. We'll be right back. Thanks so much for listening to the show. I love recording these. I love creating them for you. Y'all are so kind to me online. I love conversing with you there.

And if you want to support those who make this show possible, we put all of the promo codes and URLs for all the discounts and all the sponsors you hear, all in one place. Go to Jordan Harbinger. com slash deals. That's where you can support those who support us. And don't forget, we've got

worksheets for many episodes, drills, exercises, other takeaways from the show. Those are all in one place. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. Now for the conclusion of my conversation with Daryl Davis. What is it like standing there as a black man in a clan rally and they're lighting a cross on fire? I mean, surely, yes, you're friends with some of the people there, but there's got to be some guys that are like, what are you doing? What's this guy doing here? I mean, it can't all be sort of a welcome, warm welcome, right? Right. Absolutely. It's kind of surreal. It's kind of surreal. Yeah, to say the least, yeah. But when you are invited by the Grand Dragon or the Imperial Wizard, you know, the top hierarchy, even though some of the subordinates don't like you,

don't want you there, they will not do anything to you because they know better. If the higher up invited you, it's hands off. because otherwise you will reap, you know, some punishment. Now, if you go to a rally where you're not invited. Yeah, you just show up. I wouldn't recommend that, right? Well, I've done that before, you know, but I've been very fortunate. There are those who don't feel that, you know, you should be there.

You know, this is sacred ground, and, you know, you're defiving it. What sort of, well, I don't know. You probably wouldn't even share a, I mean, you've got to respect their stuff. If you find something out that they don't want to share publicly, you probably don't break their trust, right? Like, they got to have some secret rituals and stuff that you know. of that you don't share. In fact, a real funny story. Okay, let me give you the hierarchy.

First of all, today, there is no such thing as the Ku Klux Klan. Just like there is no The Black Lives Matter, all these different factions. So there was the Ku Klux Klan, and then it splintered into all these different factions. They had fallings out and whatever else. You have all these clan groups, and they all are autonomous. And then there are chapters of each clan group wherever. you might have the Dixie Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the rebel knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the Confederate Knights, you know, the whatever knights.

These are all separate autonomous groups. Now they all have the same basic bylaws, the same secret handshake, the same passwords, the same titles, and the same colors on their robes that designate the ranks. But they are autonomous and they don't like each other. It's funny because when you see them all in public together, they will hold a united front. but behind closed doors, the arrivals with each other. Competing for members and stuff like that.

Exactly, exactly. And what happens is some guy is a third grade dropout, pumping gas at the gas station, and he's vicious and so forth and rampant racists. He moves up the ranks to Grand Dragon or Imperial Wizard or whatever. And next thing you know, he was driving some 20-year-old beat-up Chevrolet, and now he's driving a Cadillat, you know, at 2021.

And he still works at the gas station. Something's happening. he's pocketing clan dues for his own gain. So then people get mad and they leave that clan, go join another one to form their own, all that kind of stuff. And then some people, they want racial change to happen institutionally. They don't want to go out and hang people or beat up people. They want to have their members run for public office, county commissioner, sheriff,

things like that. And so they go and join some clan group. But the clan group turns out to be very violent. So they leave and go join a more docile one. Others join the clan hoping to go out and do some night riding and kick somebody's rear end. But this group is more docile, so they've got to go find a violent group. So they splinter off. That's why you have all these different factions.

Now, if you have your chapter of the clan established in your state and in another state or in multiple states, you can then consider yourself to be a national clan group. Therefore, you must have a national leader who oversees all the states. We call our national leader the president. they call there's the Imperial Wizard. Anybody who's prefixed with the word Imperial means that person is a national officer, wizard being the top.

An imperial claliff would be like a vice president, vice wizard. And you have Secretary, Treasurer, on and on. Then the next high level down is the state leader. Each state in which you have a chapter has to have a leader. We call the state leader the governor. They call there's the Grand Dragon.

And then a grand cleave would be like a lieutenant governor. and then Secretary of Treasure. Within the state, you have counties. Wait, did you say Caliph, like the Muslim word for, or is it Clayliff? Clayliff, K-L-O-K-L-O-K-O-R-A-N. Oh, okay, I misheard you. That would have been here. Well, you're on the right track.

You're on the right track because what they call their Bible, their K-N-Han book, is called the Cloran. Really? What is going on there? K-L-O-R-A-N. Wow. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I say, you know, they appropriate everything for their own.

But it's almost like if you were a troll and you were messing with them, you would use those words and they're like, no, we're using these. I mean, even the sort of like science fiction ranking titles, which I assume just didn't age well, but also they couldn't have ever sounded that great. Maybe they did in like 1940. See, in the original clan of 1865, these people, the founders were six founders, six former Confederate officers at the end of the Civil War. they want to keep something going. They were of Irish, Scottish descent. And they came from the Masons, the Scottish right. And that fraternity, that Mason, it's a very secret organization.

They have all these weird names, all that. Not to say that all Masons are planned people. No, they're not, you know. But that's where the idea comes from, the secrecy and those weird names. They've got Cyclops and stuff, too, though, right? I mean, that's even more. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm getting to that one.

Yeah. So the county leader is known as the Great Titan. Anybody on the great level is a preface to the word great means that person's county level. Grand level is state level, imperial level, it's national level. Within the county, you have districts. We call our district leader the councilman, the alderman, the mayor. They call theirs the exalted cyclops as a district leader. And then below that is just a plain white robe Klansman, you know, plain rank and file.

So you have all these different officers. And it makes them feel important. when they have these titles. That's kind of telling, right? With the sort of almost like exaggerated hyperbolic title kind of shows you why people might join a group like this, right? Feeling a little insignificant, become an exalted cyclops, sure beats being the guy who pumps gas and gets beat up by his older brothers or neighbors and whose wife left him

or kids don't talk to him. No, I'm the grand wizard now. Like, I'm a big deal, right? I can't necessarily earn my way to the top. You can sort of hate your way. And he is a big deal within clandom, the invisible empires they call it. Now, you mentioned the secret rituals and stuff. Here's a story you'll appreciate.

God's honest truth. This exalted Cyclops, district leader, he's getting promoted from exalted cyclops to Great Titan, which means he's going to be the head of the county, like we would call it a county manager or a county executive. He was very lazy, and he did not study his clan craft. You've got to take a test and go through a ritual. and then you'd be, you know, get appointed to this position. He was lazy. He didn't study up on it.

And so the thing was, the rights were going to be done on the weekend. He calls me up in the middle of the week because he's too embarrassed. I mean, he's had like a month to study up with this stuff. He's too embarrassed to call his Grand Dragon or his Imperial Wizard to find out, you know, what he needed to know, what he needed to do, et cetera, et cetera. Because, you know, they were to, well, why do you study it before? You had a month? Blah, blah, blah, right?

So he calls me and tells me his dilemma and wants to know what he has to do because he knows I know. So a Klansman called you for a crash course in Klan ideology so he could pass his test. It's called Klan Craft. Wow. So, yeah, Klan Craft. So I told him and he passed. There must be, I mean, every time you do something like that, there must be a little seed where the person goes. So let me get this straight.

I had to call Daryl Davis, my black friend, to tell me how to pass my Klan test so that I can learn more about how I, how we're superior and I hate people who look like him. It's just got to like every little, it's like, I'm from Michigan, so this analogy doesn't make sense in California, but it's like, when there's cracks in concrete and then you pour water in there and the water freezes, and those cracks just get a little bit bigger every single time. That's got to be kind of like that sort of phenomenon. It takes them a while to connect the dots. Yeah. But it happens. It happens. I think we've gone quite over time here, but in closing here, I'd love to get this You have a good sort of bit about space age times and Stone Age minds.

I'd love to kind of get that and maybe we can wrap with that. What do you think? Whatever you like. Yeah. Well, what I've said before is this, that it bothers me a great deal that we call ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth. Now, there's nothing wrong with being patriotic and loyal, and I am very loyal, and I am very patriotic. I love my country.

It does have its flaws, but, you know, we are progressing, and we will get to where we need to be at some point. So I'm not saying anything against the country, but we have to admit that there are some flaws here. I don't adhere to that statement that we are the greatest. Maybe I would bend and say that perhaps technologically we are the greatest. After all, we Americans put a man on the moon. We invented that technology to put Neil Armstrong up there on the moon before anybody else. and while Neil Armstrong was up there walking around on the moon making that famous statement, one small step for man and one giant leak from mankind, we were able to talk to Neil Armstrong via satellite radio phone all the way from Earth,

all the way to the moon. We, Americans, invented that technology. Everybody who's going to watch this podcast or listen to it, every one of them has email and have a cell phone. You type a few words, type a few numbers hit send, and you're talking to somebody right next door to your state or halfway across the country or even anywhere on the planet, anywhere on the face of this earth.

We invented that technology. So how is it that we as Americans can talk to people as far away as the moon or anywhere on the face of this earth, but yet there's so many of those. of us who have difficulty talking to the person who lives right next door because he or she is a different color, a different religion, a different persuasion, a different whatever. Perhaps they are a family member seated at your dinner table who voted for a different candidate and you can't talk to them anymore.

How is it that we can do that, that we can't carry on these conversations? It seems to me that before we can call ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth, our ideology needs to catch up to our technology. And when we get both of those up there, then we can truly brag about how great we are. Because listen, this is the 21st century. This racist nonsense does not be long in any century, let alone the 21st. We are living in space age times, but there's a lot. there's still too many of us thinking with Stone Age minds. Daryl Davis, thank you so much.

This is fascinating, man. There's a lot. I'm sure there's even more. You're continually doing this, right? This isn't like a project that you got done with. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's call this part one, and you bring me back some time for part two.

You know it. What are you currently working on? I mean, you're probably got a lot of friends that are sort of teeter tottering on the edge of leaving whatever the clan or whatever other hate group, DeJure they've joined. But what other projects do you have going? I mean, there's a documentary. We'll link in the show notes.

You've got a book. Are you redoing the book? I know it's been a while. I just finished the second book. All right. Yeah, it's with my agent now. I'm working with people like Jeff Scoop and Beyond Barriers, helping him and others, you know, come out of that radicalization and working in preventive work. I work with a group called Parents for Peace, we have a lot of conflicted parents because their kids have been involved in different kinds of things.

Great organization. another one called Parallel Networks, which is run by my good friend Jesse Morton. Jesse is a former Al-Qaeda extremist. Wow. Yeah, quite a fascinating story. I can fix you up with some of these people if you like. Yeah, that would be great. I mean, Al-Qaeda is, you know, and Nazi groups and things like that.

I mean, I just want to, you know. I'll be happy to. Yeah. And I work with him and his group. He knows a lot about extremism. And that kind of, you know, jihadi extremism and white supremacy, there are some parallels there as to why people join those groups. groups and how to get them out.

And people who've been in these groups, they know their recruitment tactics to bring others in. So therefore, they know how to get them out as well. People like Jeff Scoop, Jesse Morton, I work with an organization called Fair, which has come up with their new learning standards, you know, to address a lot of the controversy surrounding what kids are taught about racism in schools. You know, there's good CRT and bad CRT. And, you know, Fair is trying to, you know, get all that cleared up. So I'm happy to work with a lot of these different groups,

but I am continuing to meet with white supremacists and speak to them, go to their rallies, try to do what I can to do my part to bring our country together and make this the greatest nation it should be. Hell yeah. Thank you, Daryl, so much. This is really, really interesting. And we'll talk to you soon. Take care. Thank you.

If you found this episode interesting, here's a trailer for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Maria Konnikova, who went from being someone who had no interest whatsoever in poker to raking in big bucks as an international poker champion. Here's a quick look inside. Poker is actually the perfect game for human decision-making because it's a game of incomplete information.

No one cares where the hell you went to school. No one cares what you look like. No one cares what you did or didn't do. If you can afford the buy-in, great. So there are people sitting at the table, some of whom have Ivy League educations, others of whom dropped out of high school and had to rest of the buy-in. with homelessness and built up their bankroll from $10 and took that $10 and are now millionaires. We make decisions and incorporate things that really shouldn't matter all the time, like the weather.

We don't realize that we're depressed because it's raining outside and instead we're like, oh, life sucks, everything sucks. But it's so cool that if you draw someone's attention to the reason why they're feeling this way, they're totally capable of discounting it and saying, oh, okay, yeah, I'm depressed right now, but it's because of the weather. Can you figure out not just your own triggers, but the other person's triggers? Some people, when they lose a lot, they're going to become really cautious because they don't want to lose even more. Some people when they lose a lot are going to become extra reckless because they want to gain it back very, very quickly. Same event, totally different reactions. Can I try to figure out

what the psychological dynamic for this person is? How do they react to loss? Some people, when they win a lot, they're going to become extra cautious because now they don't want to lose it. They're like, oh, I have all these chips. I want to guard them. other people, when they win a lot, they're like, yeah, let's push my advantage. Let's go. If you can start to figure out and pull apart things like that, all of a sudden you have a really good psychological picture of the person and you can take advantage of it. It's really intrigued me and I thought, let me read more about this poker thing and decided, hey, you know what? This is my book. Why don't I learn poker? Why don't I actually see how far I can go?

And I ended up becoming good and winning a major international title and getting a sponsorship from poker stars and joining team pro and somehow found myself as a professional poker player. For more, including how people make decisions and what poker can tell us about reading human motivation, how to spot real physical tells at the poker table and in real life, and how we can control and prevent emotional thinking, aka going on tilt. Check out episode 371 of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Maria. Konnikova. What an amazing conversation, right? You know, you got to wonder, what's the vibe when you're having dinner with your wife and a clan member and his wife? And they tell you something like, well, the races shouldn't mix. And you're sitting next to your Caucasian wife just munching on a Caesar salad. I don't know. It's just a, it's got to be kind of awkward at points to befriend Klansman who are obviously saying, well, you know, this, that, and the other thing. But not you. We're friends.

I mean, it's just got to be so exhausting. He's obviously super charming. And, very, very understanding. Reminds me that quote from Abraham Lincoln, something like, do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends? Brilliant quote, I'm going to make sure I got that right. I'm pretty sure that I did. This episode reminds me a bit of Megan Phelps Roper, the interview that I did with her. That's episode 302. She left the Westboro Baptist Church because she met her now husband on Twitter, I think. And they were playing words with friends or some scrabble game on the phone, and the discourse slowly de-radicalized her as well. Again, that's episode 302, really popular episode.

I highly recommend going back and checking that out. And remember, if you're just talking to the same people about things they already know, then you're preaching to the choir. You need to find someone who disagrees with you and figure out why they have that perspective. That's a teaching there from Daryl Davis that I think was in his book, but we didn't quite mention, at least not verbatim during the show. he's really, really good about that. And he, as you can see, went to an extreme

to find somebody with a very different perspective on everything. And remember to ask yourself, do I want to wait and see what my society becomes or do I want to play a part in shaping my society? The links to his documentaries and books will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you buy books from any guest on the show that always helps support us.

Worksheets for the show are in the show notes. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this interview going up on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. We've also got our brand new Clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else. Jordan Harbinger.com slash clips is where you can find that. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn if you want to get in touch. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same system, software, and

tiny habits that I use every single day. That's our six-minute networking course. It's free. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, J. Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millio Campo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful

or interesting. And again, I said this last episode, this is a fascinating conversation. It is a great jumpstart to the Jordan Harbinger show, to the podcast. So share this far and wide, please, if you know somebody who is on the fence about listening. I hope you find something great in every episode. Please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast.

Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know

has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.