The Jordan Harbinger Show - 559: How to Say Yes to Post-Traumatic Success | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

How do you find your way back to high achievement when coping with the aftermath of extreme trauma keeps you low? We'll try to find an answer to this and more here on Feedback Friday! We'll try to find an answer to this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/559 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: How do you find your way back to the hallowed halls of high achievement when the trauma you're trying to work through is doing its best to keep you low? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Erin Margolis for helping us with this one!] How do you break off a friendship with someone who's way more into it than you are without hurting their feelings? [Many thanks to From Start-Up to Grown-Up author Alisa Cohn for helping us answer this!] How can you get your lyin' and cheatin' ex-spouse to change their no-good behavior for the sake of your angelic offspring? You recently finished the novel you've been working on for five years and discovered along the way that writing it was a process you enjoyed far more than your day job. Should you dive in and become a full-time, professional writer, or just keep at it as an inspiring hobby? Your mom has been diagnosed as seriously mentally ill (SMI) and in treatment for half your life. Her psychiatrist of the past 17 years doesn't seem to be doing much to help -- in fact, her behavior's only gotten worse. As her medical power of attorney, you're considering a court order for a new mental health evaluation, but she lives in another state and you don't know where to begin. What can you do? [Once again, thanks to Corbin Payne (aka C-Payne) for helping us with this one!] Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Manufacturers today are under pressure. Tight margins, labor shortages, supply chain surprises. Visit epicor.com to learn how Epicor makes it easier to stay ahead. Our industry-specific ERP and built-in AI give you real-time production visibility,

smarter inventory planning, automated workflows, and financial insights you can act on. It's everything you need to run a more efficient, more resilient operation, built by a company that's partnered with manufacturers for more than 50 years. Discover what easier really. feels like at epicor.com. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger, and as always,

I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Prince of Prescription in my Court of Consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better-in-former. more critical thinker so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. So if you're new to the show on Fridays, that's today, whatever day it is, we give advice to you

and we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, jihadis, neuroscientists. This week we had Dr. Jack Schaefer back on the show. He was on before with elicitation techniques, super popular episode. These techniques are used by the FBI in hunting spies, and we talked about how we can use those same tactics to our advantage. The latest episode was also a two-parter on getting people to like and trust us, and you can

see why that might be useful in hunting spies as well, and comes in handy in just about every profession. So make sure you have a listen to those shows from this week as well. And if you're joining us for the first time or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about this show, we have episode starter packs. The starter packs are collections of your favorite episodes organized by popular topic. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start to get started. Also, by the way, I write every so often on the blog. A lot of you have been reading the writing, and I love that. My latest post, why hustle culture

makes you miserable and how to break out of it. This one is all about the beef I have with the whole rise and grind mindset, so-called motivation porn, all that lame productivity crap that basically says All success in life comes from working yourself to the bone. I found out that's not true by trying it myself and going through many other avenues to do the same. I also lay out some concrete tips for breaking out of that toxic mindset, how to find higher quality influences that will get you much further in life than some reided out bro yelling at you on YouTube for wanting to get eight hours asleep.

So this one's been bouncing around in my head for years. Definitely one of my favorites. So check it out. You can find that article in all of our articles at Jordan Harbinger.com. slash articles. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailback? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I used to be a high performer until four years ago when I was sexually assaulted by my boyfriend. Aside from the trauma and depression, it really threw me for a loop in regards to my identity. I've worked through much of this with a therapist, spiritual mentor, and antidepressants.

I'd say I'm in a pretty good place now. But I haven't been able to bounce back to the high performer I was prior to the event. I used to get up early, work out, take 21 credits a semester, and still have time to volunteer and hang with friends. I still do a lot. I work part-time for a nonprofit. I'm building a house. I'm planning a wedding with my wonderful fiancé, and we are in the process of purchasing a small hotel. But I can't find the motivation and strength that I used to have. It's hard to get up early. I feel spread thin, and I would often rather dissociate than participate. I love all of the things that are happening in my life and I feel fulfilled, but I don't feel that zeal that I once had. I've tried taking baby steps to get better, like going to bed early, reading instead of watching TV and stuff like

that, but I find it hard to keep myself accountable. How do I get back to being the ambitious high achiever I once was? Signed, back in the ring, but looking for my old zing. So this is a really interesting letter. I'm glad you wrote in. First of all, obviously, I'm very sorry you experienced something so traumatic. I can't even begin to imagine what that kind of experience is like. And you sound like a very thoughtful person, obviously very driven. I mean, just 21, you had me at 21 credits, first of all. Gabe, I don't know if you remember college. You're a little younger than me, but 21 is a shitload, like, by any measure. I think I was like kind of at 15, 16, you know, top and off. Yeah. 21 is a ton. This is a lot. Yeah. Yeah, she's super ambitious, definitely. Yeah, this is a person who

gets it done. And you've built what sounds like a full and awesome life. I mean, you've come out the other side of this crazy trauma with a great partner, a house, a new business. I'm sure that was not easy. I just want to give you major props for that because you're already way ahead of where most people are, and I know that's cold comfort. It's pretty obvious you've done a ton of work on yourself in addition, which is also amazing. But the fact that you've been able to thrive in so many ways after the assault, and yet you still feel like you're lacking in strength and you're lacking in motivation. I find that really interesting. We've actually consulted on your question with Dr. Aaron Margolis. She's a clinical psychologist friend of the show. She's zeroed in on this too. This identity you had as a high performer or that you have as a high performer and this conflict you feel now around not operating the way that you used to. And Dr. Margolis's first insight was that being a high achiever, it's a complicated identity. Sure, being ambitious and productive and hungry, that can be exciting and effective, but it can also be toxic and distracting. And I know this firsthand just from working on Wall Street around all these type A's, you know, being in law school with all these types of people.

And not that you're like that, but you know, that high achievers, whether they're functional or super toxic. We have that in common, right? And as Dr. Margolis pointed out, it can often be a sneaky form of avoidance being super ambitious, productive, and hungry. It can kind of like be a coping strategy in a way, basically by preventing us from confronting some of the difficult themes of our life, whether it's depression, anxiety, insecurity, loneliness, some cocktail of the above, or just asking ourselves what it is that we really want out of life. High achievement, it's highly valued in our culture, very highly valued. It's usually seen as a badge of honor, so a lot of people aren't, no one's going to get on your case for taking 21 credits, even if you're avoiding some other

thing by taking 21 credits, right? So it can also be counterproductive to being a happy, well-functioning human being. So given all that, I'm very curious about this question that you're asking, how do I get back to being the ambitious high achiever I once was? Not just because you are already performing quite well these days, at least externally, from what we can see, but because it's very possible that you don't want or need to be that person anymore. Dr. Margolis saw something similar in your letter. She pointed out that the answer to your question, it might not be about trying to get back to where you were, but accepting where you are now and letting go of this past self, that might have also been a coping mechanism, right? That means really understanding the function

of your productivity, how it operates, what it's doing for you, why it feels so important to you to be that person again, or maybe just to be seen as that person again, this is the identity part, right? It also means exploring what it means to even be a productive person these days. It sounds to me like running a hotel, working in a nonprofit, building a house, having a great relationship, and having friends and a functional life outside of that. That's your definition of being productive, and that is a ton by all measures here. But as Dr. Margolis pointed out, being productive also means listening to your body, tuning into your emotions, sitting with yourself, giving yourself space to consider these hard life questions. That's not time wasted. That's being a human being.

And so I think you might be asking the wrong question here. Let's make some room for that. Maybe the more interesting question is, what does it mean to be a high achiever? And what meaning am I making out of not being as productive as I once was? Those are the questions I would be exploring right now. And my guess is that you probably have a great deal of self-esteem and self-worth tied up in this definition of achievement. And I think it's worth exploring all of that with your therapist. Yeah, I agree completely, Jordan, because really what I'm hearing and what I think you're hearing in this question is that she's in the middle of a major transition. I think you're probably viewing it as a kind of crisis that was brought on by the assault.

And I'm not denying that that event probably played a very, very big role here. But really, this could be a very healthy evolution of your sense of self, of your identity, a whole new way, really to value yourself, value your time, and figure out what is important to you in your life these days. And Dr. Margolis, she had a similar insight that this evolution that you're describing, it actually sounds very positive in so many ways. We're not saying that your trauma was a good thing, of course not, but Dr. Margolis pointed out that as horrible as certain experiences can be, they can also be very useful. They can be useful in showing us patterns that aren't serving us or values that don't hold water for us anymore. And it's very possible that what happened to you,

it might have forced a kind of reckoning, a re-evaluation of your most foundational basic principles. And that was incredibly painful, yeah, for sure. But it might have also helped you see that this high achiever mode, this productivity maven you once were, that wasn't necessarily a healthy, sustainable pattern. It might not have been working very well. It probably gave you a lot of gratification, but that doesn't mean it was the right pattern for you. And now you feel like you're failing, it sounds like, because it's hard to get up early and fully participate in your life. But Dr. Mogulis pointed out that when we don't listen to our emotional experience, whatever's true for us, whatever's going on, our body has a way of forcing us to, right? And we see this, right? If you work 90 hours a week

for week after week after week, you'll wake up, you'll be sick, right? Or you'll get super tired or you'll need to check out. And that's our body's way of protecting us from falling back into those harmful patterns. And so her hunch was that what happened to you probably forced a lot of emotion to the surface and that maybe that emotion needs to be given some more space in your life than it had been before. And all of that has led you to reconsider what you actually want, which is actually a great thing. So actually, Dr. Margulis pointed us to a concept that explains exactly this process. It's called post-traumatic growth. We talk a lot about post-traumatic stress, but we don't talk so much about the after effects

in a positive sense of what happens after a disruptive event, a traumatic event like this. Trauma, that can disrupt your identity, no doubt about it, especially something as violating, as sexual assault. But there's also this very well-studied phenomenon of people, and I think this might include people like you who go through trauma and become more resilient and they become more attuned and they become more self-actualized, which is actually really extraordinary if you think about it. And so it's possible that what you're describing as a struggle, that this is actually growth and you might be minimizing that growth by framing it as a failure or a disappointment

after the person you once were instead of viewing it as just a part of this very powerful process of questioning and reevaluating and evolving as a person. That said, if you're continuing to struggle with something like depression, or you feel like you have like this very apathetic worldview, or I don't know, you sort of have this dissociative approaches you described it to all of your experiences, and this is like a real problem. Yeah, then I would obviously listen to that. I would talk to your therapist, maybe talk to your psychiatrist about that. There are definitely interventions and treatments that can help you get moving again. Dr. Mogul has confirmed all of that. But that's not really what I'm hearing from this letter. And Jordan, I think you agree. Yeah, I agree with that. I do. So as much as you can, I would try to get more curious and compassionate about the shift in your life, not to sound so like meditate on this grasshopper, but really, partly due to the assault and partly due to your own evolution, your values have clearly shifted, and you're forming a new identity. And as Dr. Margolis puts it, growth always includes a healthy pruning away of old patterns and parts of self. That happens to everyone. I totally agree with that. I'm really sorry you went

through something so difficult. I obviously wish it didn't happen. I'm sure you do as well, but it did happen, and you've worked through it with tremendous resilience and curiosity. It's brought you to a new place in your life. I would try to find out why. There's a lot of good stuff unfolding here, a lot of growth on the other side of this high achiever mindset. I'd go find out what that growth is. So good luck with that. And Gabriel, I just on the side note here, like this might be sort of a trite, bullshit explanation. But when I was in college, I had so much more energy and I also felt like I had to do everything. And I also had unlimited things to do. Right. So now that I'm a little older and I'm like, hey, a lot of that stuff doesn't matter.

I'm just less motivated to do crap that I don't care as much about. And it's not like, sure. I don't question that I lost motivation for those things because of some traumatic event, because I didn't have a traumatic event. But I can also see if I went through something and my tastes changed and part of that was natural or all of it was natural that I might be like, oh no, is this because of this thing that happened to me? Is it? Is that, am I broken in some way? When really you're just like, you know, I kind of just want to focus on my business and go to the gym and hang out with my significant other. There's nothing wrong with that.

You know, in college, I did like everything because it was, you know, overachiever mode, get into college, grad school, whatever it was. And then I graduated and I was a waste of time. It didn't mean I was less motivated or less of an achiever. It just meant that I kind of realized that I didn't have to do all that stuff anymore. The pressure was really, I put the pressure on myself and it was miserable. If she were saying I'm in bed all day and I can't go to the gym and all I eat our Cheetos, I'd be like, okay, this is a thing. But she's like, all I'm doing is being in a great relationship and managing a hotel and buying a house and having it like all night. I'm like, okay, so you're in the 99th percentile instead of the 100th percentile.

Right. Don't panic. Right. Don't freak out because all of your happiness and fulfillment is coming from four things instead of 10 things. And you're doing these four things even better. And they're just happy to be different from what you used to do with your life. Absolutely. Yeah, it's like winning a silver medal and being like, oh, I'm a failure, right?

Like, not really. No, you're a different person now. And I think she's maybe attributing some of this to this traumatic event. And maybe it is part of that, but it's really tempting to look at yourself five, 10 years ago and go, oh, I was different then and better in this way. And then try to find a reason that that is the case. And if there's no reason, like with me, I was like, I'm just getting older. But if you have something happen, you're like, it must be because of this thing that changed my life in other ways. It must be this, right, because you're probably studying it and opening that up and looking at it as an

explanation for all kinds of shifts. But here happens to be a shift that is largely positive, probably, or she can figure out what's positive and go with that. And it seems that it might just be an indication or a confirmation of this very terrible thing that happened when in reality it might just be a very natural growth. So the question is, what does better even mean? Like, what does that look like? What matters to you? I think that's the real question. It's like a lot of my, I'm 41, right? So a lot of my friends who are older, I'll sit like, oh, wait till you're 50. And they're like, it's impossible.

They'll say something like, oh, you know, getting older, it's impossible to stay in shape or to stay thin. And I'm like, you're housing a pizza right now. Do you think it could be your diet? You know, like, here's looking at you, dad. Right. You know, when you're older, you can't, it's impossible to lose weight. You literally ate chips for dinner four nights in a row. Like, it's not, it's not just your age, bro.

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back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right. Next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 29-year-old woman, and about two years ago, I met up with a woman who followed me on social media, and over the next few months, we developed a friendship. As we spent more time together, though, I realized that we weren't really on the same wavelength and that I couldn't entirely be myself around her. But I waved off those doubts, thinking that it would just take time to really open up to somebody.

So we kept seeing each other, her initiating our meetings most of the time. It's funny seeing each other. A guy would never say that. Like, oh, I met this friend and we keep seeing it. Like, only women can use that term, I feel like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, what do we say?

We started hanging out. Hanging out. Yeah, you would never, you know, because guys are like, I don't want any ambiguity in this. I don't want to be, yeah. Hashtag no homo, yeah. Just to be clear, you and Chad did see each other when you grabbed. Yeah, we saw each other, but we didn't see each other. Yeah, I mean, I physically saw him.

I physically sat across and made eye contact when appropriate. Yeah, but it's not like our feet touched or anything. Very quickly, she can sit. I don't know why that image is, I'm just picturing a couple of new balances, making light, light contact beneath the. bar table. Yeah, a couple. Yeah, definitely not Tom's. No Tom's.

If it's Tom's, it's a full-fledged relationship. Okay. It's very quick. Then they were seeing each other. Oh, God. Very quickly, she considered me one of her closest friends. She shared a lot of personal stuff, told me about her previous friendships, how she had been disappointed by people a few times.

She contacted me way more than I did her, and if I didn't reply quickly enough, she would ask me if anything was wrong. A few weeks ago, I gently told her that. I'm not always able to text her back right away, that for me it's totally normal to not text or talk to all of my friends every few days. She seemed to understand, and our communication became a little less frequent. Fast forward to today. I've now realized that I just don't want to spend any of my time with this person. It sounds cruel, but the free time I do have is just too precious to me, and I only want to spend time doing things that fulfill me. This might put me in the list of her quote-unquote disappointing

friends, but I can live with that. Also, I can't help but wonder if those previous friendships, she mentioned, took a similar path. For sure. Should I, like, definitely. 100%. Yeah. Should I break up with this friend like a relationship? If so, how do I do that without hurting her?

Or should I let this become one of those friendships that just slowly fades out? Signed, putting a friendship to bed without messing with her head. So I know this situation well. I've seen this mess a few times over the years. It's always super sad and awkward. This friend of yours, she obviously has some tricky patterns. And now you're stuck between protecting her feelings and protecting your time. And that's a tough spot to be in.

But you know you have to end things. I totally agree. Honestly, if I'm giving you the unvarnished truth here, she sounds really annoying and clingy. We wanted to get an expert's opinion on your question, so we consulted with Alyssa Cohen. Alyssa's a startup coach investor and author of From Startup to Grownup, and one of her many areas of expertise is managing relationships, and she's pretty damn good at it. Alyssa's take was that there are basically two ways that you can approach this. Option one, you just stop seeing this woman and answering her texts,

leaving her with the agony of wondering what happened, so ghosting, right? This allows you to avoid the direct conversation, but it'll probably leave you with some guilt. Definitely major awkwardness if you ever bump into her. I don't necessarily recommend that, of course. Option two, you have a conversation that will be painful for her and certainly upsetting for you, but at least she'll know how you feel,

and she won't be left wondering what the hell happened. If you've ever been in the position of wondering why a friend stopped talking with you, you know how difficult that is. Personally, if this woman won't take the hint, I'm a fan of option two. I know it's horrible, it's sad, but it's actually kind of the most respectful thing you can do. So how do you actually have that conversation?

Well, first of all, Alyssa recommends activating your compassion. If you're like me, it's really hard to find, but you might be better at that. You're probably right that this dynamic is reminiscent of her past friendships. Again, she comes on way too strong, too fast. Other people back away and disappoint her,

and then she's like, chasing, right? Why aren't you texting me back? Ugh, cringe. And Alyssa recommends thinking back on times that you've been hurt or blown off by people you care about and just tap into that empathy. Even if they're being a total weirdo, it sucks. So just be gentle and just make sure your tone reflects that. Then there's the question of where to do it.

Email or text certainly feels the easiest, but it's really impersonal. It can easily be misunderstood. You could do it in person, but then you're seeing them in person. It's actually more cruel in a way because, look, your phone calls your best bet. The phone call gives you a bit of a shield. And then when the conversation is over, she'll already be at home. So at least she won't have to drive home all worked up or be on the subway just crying because you met up at Starbucks.

And you were like, here's the thing. Don't order just yet. I never want to hang out with you again. Right? It's like a weird. Yeah. Oof is right. So here's a little script Alyssa came up with.

You could start by saying something like, this is really hard to say, and I know this is disappointing. But I want to let you know that I can't be the friend. you want me to be. I'm sorry about that. I just don't see us going in the same direction. I want to tell you honestly how I'm feeling rather than just fade away. I think you're a great person. I really do. I wish you the very best. But I think it's best for both of us if we don't make plans together anymore. You don't have to follow the exact script, of course, but when you do this, I'd be prepared for any number of reactions. She might get angry. She might just get sad. Or maybe she'll hang up on you.

Don't let her initial reaction throw you. It's not a referendum on whether you made the decision and something dramatic like her getting really pissed off or slamming the phone down, that might even just be another way of reeling you back in. So don't internalize it, don't react, just listen to their reaction or her reaction. And if she has any questions, I'd be ready to answer a few of them just briefly. Like, what specifically was it? And then you can be like, hey, it's weird that when I text you and you text me that I don't text back for a day that you're like, what happened? And you're calling me five times a night. That's weird. It's weird and it's needy and it's clinging. Like you can say that. Just don't be hurtful. And she might be. And she might be

be like, why? And you might want to say something along the lines of because I think we have different expectations of what this friendship should be, or she might say, is there anything I can do to change your mind? And you might have to say something like, no, I just don't think we're in the same place. So Alyssa also recommends coming back to the phrase, I think you're a great person, and I wish the very best for you. You can express appreciation for what you brought to each other while you were friends, and then just trust that it's okay to move on. Because Gabe, I don't know, there's a kind of a way to do this that lets the other person down easy. And then there's like the middle school version where you're like, I hate you, don't ever call me again. And the other person's just like super

torn up about it. Sure. And there's not a ton of middle ground, right? It's either hurtful or it's not. Right. Once you really start to unpack it, you realize why so many people ghost because it's so much easier. And the sad thing is that I think we've gotten so used to that now that we just sort of like have to interpret other people's silences to spare ourselves and then the discomfort of this conversation, even though this conversation, objectively speaking, is not as bad as we think it is. And it's also, in a weird way, it's kind of a sign of respect. So I agree completely. You know, Jordan, I actually, this is funny. I recently had to break up with somebody. We were only dating for a few months, but it was still really sad. She was a great person. I was truly, truly, truly dreading this conversation.

And I talked about it with my brother-in-law. And I was like, John, like, I don't know how to do this. I'm dreading this. This girl is wonderful. I don't want to hurt her feelings. I don't even know how to say this. And he told me something I'll never forget. He goes, you have to take the puppy back to the shelter. Like, that's how it feels ending a relationship with someone who's a good person, which is not for you. It's like taking an adorable puppy back to the shelter. Like, you just got to do it. It's going to suck. And then it's done. And then they euthanize the poor innocent, cute little puppy, all because you were too lazy and selfish to take care of it. Nice, Gabriel. Nice. It had to be done. Okay. I'm sorry, but it had to be done. I know that's a brutal

metaphor, but I think you know what I mean, right? Like, if it's not working out, you just got to do it. And in this woman's case, I think there's another very good reason to officially break up rather than just ghost her, which is that this friend, as you pointed out, she has a pattern of getting close with people and then feeling disappointed. So giving her some sense of why this happened, even if it's just a little bit, that might help her get curious about this pattern and finally fix it. And in that way, as painful as it is, as awkward as it is, you could actually be giving her a really big gift as you guys part ways. Not that it's on you to fix her or whatever, but if you feel inclined to open up a little bit, if she seems receptive to hearing, you know, some feedback, you might

actually end up really helping her in the long run. Definitely. If she's ready to hear that, it could be a game changer. It could also be that moment where she goes, oh, wow, this is definitely a thing in my life. I need to work on this. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. I've done with all my friends. But she's got to be ready and willing to hear that. So I hope that helps. I wish you the best. And honestly, don't belabor this. Just get it done. Take the puppy back to the shelter. Be thoughtful, but be firm and know that you're allowed to have whatever feelings you have. You don't have to feel guilty for protecting your time, especially as an adult. If you're handling this like an adult, you know, come on. And we'll link to Alyssa's book from startup to

grown up in the show notes. There's actually a ton of practical scripts for scenarios just like these in there. It's available for pre-order now. It's a great read. Alyssa is very, very. smart and savvy, especially when it comes to these types of situations. By the way, we forgot to throw this tag onto a recent episode, but the experts we consult on the show, they're a huge part of this podcast, as you know, they're one of our superpowers, and we just want you to know that they're helping us because they love the show and they love you guys, just like we do. And just to say, when they do offer guidance, they're speaking more generally. They're not giving personalized expert advice, legal advice, or therapy or anything like that. We did forget

to mention that in a recent episode that was episode 544. So I just want to make that clear. This applies to lawyers like Corbin Payne and all the amazing experts you hear on the show. And even to me, because as I like to say, I'm a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. And frankly, you shouldn't hire me for any legal work whatsoever. All right. Next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I separated from my wife two years ago after I found out that she was being unfaithful. We had a few months where we couldn't stand being near each other, but we ultimately decided it wasn't doing any good for our three-year-old daughter to see us fight. We were able to put things aside and successfully co-parent. But recently, I've discovered a pattern of lying in my ex-wife. I found out that when she moved out of the house

while we were separated, she was actually staying with the guy she was cheating on me with, rather than a friend of hers like she told me. To give a more mundane example, she said that she paid for the registration on her car to be renewed, and that the tags got lost in the mail multiple times, but when I called to follow up, they had no record of anybody getting them renewed. And then another time, she said she was taking her daughter out of town, but she lied about what town they went to. This pattern is largely the reason that I filed for divorce. My ex has a history of trauma and has recently been acting out sexually, hooking up with guys, she just met in bar bathrooms,

going over to guys' houses at all hours of the night for sex, and so on. She's been staying with me since last summer and we'll be moving out soon, but I worry that our daughter is going to witness her lifestyle. I'm not comfortable with random guys going over to her place on nights she has a sleepover with our daughter. I know that she won't be honest about what's going on if I ask her, as she likes to tell you what you want to hear. My attorney has said that I can't control who she has over nor how she parents. As long as the child isn't in any danger, there's nothing that can be done. So how can I get her to be honest with me and not have random guys in and out of her home when that time comes?

Signed, unable to ignore this rotating door. Ugh, kind of gross. Not going to lie. First of all, major props for you and your wife for handling your conflict so well, at least in the beginning there. Ending a marriage because somebody's cheating. Obviously a very painful situation, and of course you were angry. But the fact that you could put that animosity aside for the sake of your daughter and putting her first, that says a lot about you and you guys both, actually, all this other drama notwithstanding. And so I want to commend you for that.

I think that's great. That's what should be done. As far as your concerns about your wife, it definitely sounds like she's wrestling with some heavy stuff. Between the trauma and the lying and the promiscuity, you're not wrong to be concerned at all. I don't say that in a judgmental way or in like a slut-shamey kind of way. Your wife is obviously free to do whatever she wants. She's single now, this is her life.

But you're right, having a lot of men around, especially randos, like random dudes met in bars, that could be weird for your daughter, can be confusing for your daughter, it could be dangerous to your daughter, it could be a little or a lot destabilizing. Just, again, the risks of having random people around a young girl.

I'm not saying something terrible is going to happen or that your wife is choosing dangerous men, but let's be real. guys who are not in their teens and 20s hooking up with random women in a bar, not usually a good filter for like responsible upstanding citizens. It's just a real possibility.

And honestly, just having a rotating cast of random dudes eating freaking Cheerios with your daughter in the morning could be complicated enough. But your lawyer's probably right. Unless your daughter is in direct danger, it'll be hard to compel your wife to change her behavior. And obviously you don't want to wait

until something bad happens to intervene. So I would make some time, to talk about this with your ex-wife. I would begin by telling her that this whole chapter has been super hard, but that you're really proud of both of you for being able to put away your drama and give your daughter to the best possible upbringing. Get her to confirm that your daughter is actually your biggest shared priority, that whatever you guys do, it has to be in service of her well-being. And once you agree on that, then I would carefully bring up her love life. And I would do this very gently and respectfully. You're probably going to have to work hard not to get angry or

judgmental, the last thing you want to do is have her lash out or shut down. I would say something like, listen, we're separated, whatever you want to do, whoever you want to see, totally your choice. I accept it. I have zero problem with it as long as you're being safe. But I just want to talk to you about how that'll work when our daughter stays over. Because I'm sure you agree that it would be confusing for her to see different men coming in and out of the house. She might have questions about mom's new friends. And I think it would just be a lot simpler for her if you kept that part of your life away from her until she's older. What do you think? And I would talk it out with her. Hopefully she'll see your point, but if she doesn't, help her see things from your daughter's perspective,

as much as you can stay away from your feelings, which probably she doesn't give a crap about, honestly, she's already cheated on you once, right? She's not going to care about your feelings about her lifestyle. Keep things focused on your daughter's experience, because she can argue all day about whether she has the right to date half the dudes within a 10-mile radius on OKCupid and bang dudes and bars, but she can't reasonably argue that seeing mommy's new friends go in and out of the house at all hours of the night is a good environment for a kid. Right. It's just that part, I think, is objectively bad. Yeah. Objectively, yeah, bad. Once she recognizes that, I would get her to try to agree to a few ground rules here. For example, she only has dates over when your daughter's staying with you. Or if her daughter is staying with her, she hires a babysitter.

And she goes to the other person's house. She doesn't have him come to hers. That could also be kind of dicey because she's, she should, probably be spending that time with your daughter and know the babysitter can't be some dude she met at Crunch Fitness last week. And maybe, maybe. Sorry, that was. Equinox, though, no problem. Equinox, of course, just invite them all over. But crunch, no, no, no, no, that's where we draw the line. But Planet Fitness, don't even think about it.

Planet Fitness, don't even go there. That's, that's DCF call right. That's right. That's right. Maybe she can only bring someone home when it becomes a more serious relationship, and you can tell her the same goes for you, right? You're going to follow the same rules. That seems fair. That's how I would approach it. None of this is controversial. You're not asking your ex to stop dating or stop what she's doing, which you can't anyway. You're just asking her to handle it in a way

that doesn't impact your daughter. Yes, I agree. I like that approach a lot, Jordan. But I do hear you that your wife has bigger issues that she's dealing with here and she's your daughter's mom and that impacts your daughter. So if it's appropriate, I would encourage her, if you can, to start going to therapy between the trauma and the lying and the history of acting out, your ex-wife needs to be talking to somebody. She should be talking to somebody. Let's put it that way. I would frame this as, you know, with all the change that's happening in our marriage and with our family, I bet it would be very helpful to have a place to process all of this stuff rather than something like, you know, you're lying in my face, you're a terrible mom, you need to go fix that, get on that, you know, kind of thing. Maybe you could even say something

like, I've been doing a lot of my own work on my own since the separation. I actually think it's made me a better dad could be great for you too. Give it a try, you know, see what comes up. Because if she's going to change, it's probably going to happen in there. It's not going to happen because you, you know, disapprove of her lifestyle. As for the lying, as much as you can, I would try to let go of the, you know, the smaller, pettier lies that don't directly impact you and try to help your ex address the ones that actually do. And another good ground rule would be, if she takes your daughter out of town, she needs to tell you exactly where they are. She can't say they're, you know, going to Portland and then hop on a flight to Vancouver or whatever. It's not cool. It's a bad idea. If anything

ever happened and you needed to locate them or you just needed to get in touch with them, that could be a huge problem. If you can, I would make your wife see that lying to you about things like that. It's not just unfair. It's not just kind of sketch. It's also potentially dangerous. And it's just, that's not how one parent treats another parent. It's just not a good situation for any of you. But aside from that, the best thing you can do is stay close with your daughter. You definitely sound like the steadier parent in her life. I think that's wonderful. Your daughter's super lucky to have you. She's going to need you, especially as she gets older. So keep putting her first. Keep investing in your relationship with her. Stay connected to her. Make sure she knows that she's loved and she's safe

and that she can trust you because that's going to be huge. Again, especially if your wife doesn't, you know, reassess or change her behavior. She's going to need you close back. Definitely. I mean, the dad, the writer here is definitely the daughter's best hope, especially if mom is like, mom sounds a little bit like a disaster. I hate to be judgy, but this does not sound like a great scenario. So I'm wishing you, your daughter, and even your ex, the best of luck. Good luck with that. Gabe, it's hard because we only have one side of the story, but also there's some stuff

where you're like, okay, you're adults, you have a kid, you're inviting random dudes that you met in a bar over to your house. Like, how do you not foresee disastrous consequences possibly happening? Right. I don't know. Yeah. It's really, really scary. So I feel for this guy.

I agree. Absolutely do. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. And now, back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right. Next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About five years ago, I started writing a science fiction novel in my spare time. It's taken a long time to make real progress, but I'm nearing the end and after some intense editing, I should have a final novel this fall. I'm now faced with an issue I never thought I would have.

I am increasingly dissatisfied with my day job in comparison. When I started the novel, I had a clear vision, a strong motivation, and low expectations, but I enjoyed the process so much that I now desperately need this novel to be a quote-unquote success. I have never felt this way in my work as an engineer, and I doubt I ever will. I realize that hoping that this novel will spark a whole career is unreasonable. Still, I cannot let go of this hope. I love writing, and apart from the utter dread of having to sell my work as my livelihood, I could see myself as a professional writer for the rest of my life.

What makes this even more difficult, though, is that I have a family that's depending on me to take care of them financially, so I'm worried about this loss of passion. I don't want to sabotage my career by putting too much hope in a far-fetched dream, but if I went all in on my current career, I feel like I might go crazy. Should I keep writing as a hobby or dive in and make it my career? Signed, remain a shill or embrace the quill. Well, first of all, major props on writing a novel that is a huge accomplishment. just sitting out to write something and actually finishing it probably puts you in the point 0.001% of people who want to be artists or creators. Definitely. The fact that you found so much joy in the, right, Gabriel, like, isn't writing a book a cliche because no one actually freaking

does it ever? It's the hardest thing in the world. Yeah, it's hugely impressive. And the fact that you found so much joy in the process, I think that's amazing, but it's also bringing up some of these new questions. So let's dive into that. So it's interesting. What I'm hearing is that you feel like this is your true calling or whatever, but you're also trying to be realistic, which candidly is smart. We all know that tons of talented writers get rejected for years before they find success. If they ever find success, many, many more never get published at all. It might take three, four, five books before you sell one. Or you could strike gold and sell this one right out the gate and then suddenly the publisher wants your next one and before you know it, you're quitting

your job and being a writer for real. And that's just part of the mind fuck of being an artist. But then you said something that stood out to me, that you can't let go of this dream, but that you feel utter dread about having to sell your work to support your livelihood. And I think this is really telling, it's very common, but the reality is that's what being a full-time creator or writer is. If you give up your engineering career and you go all in on being a novelist, that is going to be your sole source of income. And that is what the people you work with will expect.

This thing you love doing because you found it inherently enjoyable, that'll suddenly become your job. And a job is very different from a hobby. It comes with new expectations and standards and timelines. It's never as pure as it was in the beginning. And that can be a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people. It can actually be really frustrating and scary. You know, I used to do this show in a basement. I didn't worry about the quality. I edited it myself, just barely talked about whatever I wanted. I did whatever prep I wanted. It was really a lot of fun. I'm having more fun now, but I'm not carefree like I was back then. Like, oh, yeah, we didn't release one for a week. Like, Who cares? I wasn't even thinking about it. Now it's like, this went out an hour late.

People are DMing me. It's a whole thing. Oh, the art isn't in the, there's all these little things I didn't even care about or think about before because I was a lawyer. And that said, if you really want to build your life around your writing, then going pro might be great for you, but then you have to just make peace with that dread that you feel. It sucks, but you don't get to have a creative career and not feel the pressure of doing it for money. You just don't. And if you decide that you can't accept that arrangement, then maybe you don't really want to be a professional writer, and that's totally fine too. You can keep it as a hobby. You can self-publish, whatever that looks like. It can be a side hustle. So I would get clear about what role you want

writing to play in your life. If you want it to just be a hobby, great. You'll find a lot of joy in that, like you just did. But if you want to see if your writing can go somewhere, which it sounds like you do, then you have to be prepared for your relationship with your art to change. And that's just the way it is when you're participating in a system and not just scribbling away nights and weekends in your garage. Right. This is something every artist confronts at some point. I've felt very similar things at different points in my life. It's totally normal. But honestly, I wouldn't worry about this too far in advance. I mean, you haven't even sent out your manuscript yet. You still need a job in the meantime. And even if you do publish this book, you might need to hang on to a job to support your family

until you sell the second one. So this is a long and rocky road. The economics of writing are weird, to put it simply, and sometimes pretty terrible. You might have to do what a lot of writers do, which is continue doing another job until you can really bank on your writing as a steady career. So I wouldn't check out of your engineering job just yet when it really feels like a slog and it's absolutely miserable. Maybe you can find a new challenge or a new role or a new lens on it that'll make it more doable. Maybe you can even do a little writing at work if that's an option and maybe that's more fun or if it just really sucks and there's no way around it. Maybe you can remind yourself that this job is literally funding your dream and that alone could give it a little more

meaning, help you cope a little bit. And hey, here's another idea. Maybe you can use some of the dissatisfaction that you're feeling these days to move a little faster with your writing. You know, maybe when you're bummed about work, you can come home and say, like, I'm going to submit my manuscript to even more people. I'm going to finish these edits a little more quickly, that kind of thing. That could be another way to put some of this restlessness to good use. Yeah, good point. Sometimes you can't change the feeling. You can only change what you do with the feeling. And that's what ends up changing the feeling. So just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Don't overthink this. Finish your manuscript, send it out, get feedback, do the rewrites. See if an agent or

publisher even bites, you know, not to, I don't want to be discouraging, but the shit is hard. See what the money looks like. You might be like, are you kidding me? This is my advance, right? And then decide which life you want to choose. Because the brutal truth, and I'm not saying this to piss in your Cheerios, you already know this. The brutal truth is that this decision you're stressing about, it could take years to come to a head. all the energy you're pouring into this question of what do I do? Who am I? Can I make this trade-off? That energy is just better spent on doing the next thing. Stay focused, do the work, let the path unfold organically because it always does. Good luck. All right. Next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My mother is diagnosed as seriously mentally ill and has been in treatment for half my life with little to no effect on her diagnosis. I understand her disease, but it's now gotten to a point where my mother is not just suicidal, but projecting her mania onto other people. She's threatened her husband, my stepdad, with a knife,

and frequently cuts herself. Her latest manic episode was more haunting than usual. She has threatened to drive into the back of a semi-truck to kill herself. While it's still sad to think of my mom as suicidal, I cannot accept the fact that she is now potentially putting other people in danger. Here's my problem. She's been with the same psychiatrist for 17 years, and my family and I believe he has been no help. I'm starting to think that I need to get a court order for a mental health evaluation. I'm designated as her medical power of attorney, but I'm not sure how I should go about this, especially given that she lives in another state. Where do I start? Signed, managing mom with great aplomb. Well, I'm very sorry that you and your mom are going through this. My heart does go out to

you guys. Serious mental illness is extraordinarily hard, obviously. It's even harder when it lasts for decades. So your mom, she's struggling in a major way. And it sounds like it's falling on you to make sure she's all right. And that's quite a burden to carry. And I hope you're holding up okay. Since you're really asking a legal question, we consulted with the one and only Corbyn Payne, top-notch defense attorney and friend of the show. And the first thing that C-Pain said, he asked me to call him that, said, was having a medical power of attorney, that obviously gives you certain rights and abilities. But there can be sharp differences in power of attorney laws from state to state. So the document appointing you as a POA, that lays out your powers and responsibilities. For example,

it might only be effective if your mom is incapacitated and getting her declared incapacitated. That's another headache all its own. Corbyn can't comment with specificity on your ability to get things done with your power of attorney other than to advise you that you should, of course, contact an attorney in your state and or in your mom's state. And I totally agree with that. Being a lawyer is very much a state-to-state thing. Now that said, there are some options that Corbyn can chime in on. So first of all, if your mom has articulated a desire to kill herself or she has a planned method to kill herself, and definitely if she's done both, then you can kick off the process to get her evaluated by what's called a crisis team. And that term differs from state to state,

but every state has some version of a crisis team. It's a local hospital or a mental health hospital would be able to point you in the right direction to get started with that. This is basically a team of psychological professionals who can evaluate someone on the spot and make a recommendation for somebody to be committed to a mental health institution. And you're right, your mom is posing a risk to herself and other people, and that is a major cause for concern, so I understand why this might be necessary. Now, if your mom is opposed to entering a facility, she can only be committed for a short amount of time. But that time could be extended by an order of the court. And Corbyn said not to worry about the court proceedings.

The hospital usually handles that. Depending on the power of attorney and your state's laws, you might be able to agree to certain things even over your mom's objections. As for dealing with her current psychiatrist, Corbyn did say that you can contact the hospital and express some of your concerns about this person. They should be able to speak with you since you have power of attorney. They can review the medical history, your mom's medical history, and if they're concerned about the psychiatrist too, they might be able to require a change in service providers as a condition for her release. Again, this really depends on state law. And even if they don't have a problem with the psychiatrist per se, or they can't mandate a change, they should still be

putting a plan together for her treatment post-release. And the psychiatrist would be required to follow that in theory, right? The last option Corbyn mentioned is this. You might want to consider pursuing a conservatorship. Now, conservatorships are very controversial. They're not. They're not not always clean, and they really truly should be used as a last resort. Corbin did say that he's 100% hashtag Free Brittany for the record, but conservatorships, they can be abusive. I agree. But if you're dealing with somebody with lifelong mental health issues who's threatening to kill herself in a manner that would also endanger other innocent people, that a conservatorship might be the lesser of two evils. Now, under a conservatorship, you could make important medical calls,

even over mom's objections, not phone calls, but like decisions. That could include having her evaluated, having her committed, changing her medical service providers. This is probably your best bet for keeping her safe and healthy. Just know that it'll require an attorney to get it filed, and it is not cheap. And like I said, I wouldn't go here if, A, you haven't exhausted all of your other options, and B, you truly believe that this is your only reliable way to keep your mom safe. and I'm really sorry that you have to make these kinds of calls, these decisions. I can only imagine how difficult this must be.

But as long as you're truly acting in your mom's best interest, I think you're in the right. And legal stuff aside, I would also make sure that you're taking care of yourself. This is a lot for anyone to handle. Being a caretaker, that's an intense role, especially for somebody who's seriously mentally ill. So make sure that you're finding the resources and activities you need to. Therapy, if you're not already there, exercise, sleep, solo time, you know, dear hobbies, whatever, all of that. You can't be effective here if you're not healthy to. So we're sending you all of our best thoughts here. Good luck. Hope you all enjoyed that.

I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you for that. Go back and check out Dr. Jack Schaefer, two parts this week if you haven't yet on how to get people to like and trust you. Always a useful set of skills. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these people, I've got a great network. I'm teaching you how to make a network as well and dig that well before you get thirsty using our course six minute networking, again totally free on the thinkific platform, jordanharbinger.com slash course.

It takes a few minutes a day. I really strongly recommend this set of habits. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Jordanharbinger.com slash course is where you find it. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Our videos are on our YouTube channel,

Jordanharbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, J. Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions, those are our own. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Same applies to Corbin Payne's advice and anybody else on the show that we've consulted. Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological. information based on researching clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate and establish clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share the show with somebody who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into,

Here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. If you're not honest with yourself, then how do you ever move your life in a positive direction? Because you're starting from a point to fantasy. Nobody can succeed if you're not honest with themselves. Revenue cures all. You know, when I talk to people in business seminars and you say, you know, John, my labor cost is high, my marketing costs is high, my promotion cost is high, my tech cost is high. But if I could raise your revenue by 30%, you wouldn't have pet costs.

problems anymore. You have labor costs. So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives. If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in a morning and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now? How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then I can deal with all of the other things that I have to, but there's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. And if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first thing, probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur. And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender, people say he's been a bartender for 10 years, he should be the manager.

No. If he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be. Some people are comfortable where they are and you promote him right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave him alone. The person who's not comfortable who's bubbling up on their own. And that's the one who should be promoted, even if they've only been leaving for a couple months. I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader.

I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed him off a cliff. Leadership is boring. It's not given. For more no-nonsense business advice with Barr Rescue star John Taffer, check out episode 142 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love,

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