The Jordan Harbinger Show - 568: Sugar Daddy's Ambition is a Savory Transition | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

You're a bit embarrassed to say you went through a debaucherous sugar daddy phase, but your sweet tooth for the lifestyle turned sour and left you feeling empty. Now you're in a more confident headspace to pursue regular dating, but should you disclose this part of your life to a hypothetical significant other should things turn serious? We'll try to find a good answer (devoid of any candy coating) to this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/568 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: After going through a sugar daddy phase, you're ready for regular dating. But should you disclose your past if a relationship gets serious? Jordan. Jen. Jayden. Is the Harbinger family alliteration premeditated, or purely happenstance? You were recently offered the position of Assistant Grand Master in your Masonic District -- a huge honor -- but what they don't know is you may have to move for a job offer you're pursuing. How do you break the news without offending your fellow Stonecutters? Showers: is it best to take them in the morning or at night? Your profession makes you highly visible in your cozy, rural community, so you're finding it hard to date online without stumbling across the profile of someone who would definitely recognize you. What are your options for keeping romance on the DL without driving 250 miles outside of town? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Erin Margolis for helping us with this one!] As a novice, what's the best way to start building your podcast? What happens to the Feedback Friday questions that don’t make it on the show? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Feedback Friday, producer, The Chronicleer of Monikers, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people

and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinkers. can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and

answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Brian Chesky, co-founder of Airbnb. This one is especially interesting. A lot of inside insight into how the business got started, the origin story, how they survived the pandemic and a lot of inside baseball from Airbnb, straight from the CEO co-founder's mouth. And he's just, he was a great interview. I think y'all will enjoy that as well. We also had Kai Fu Lee back on the show about artificial intelligence, what the future might slash will hold and how close we actually are to that future. So enjoy everything that we created

for you here this week. I also write every so often on the blog, my latest post, the best way to ask for a promotion and make sure you land it. This one is based on a ton of actual questions. that we've gotten here on the show, how to jump to the next level, what to do if you don't get the promotion you were hoping for, how to use feedback so that you can position yourself more strongly next time. We enjoyed writing this one.

There's a lot of practical strategies here, plus a case study based on a real listener's experience working to get promoted inside her company. Highly recommend checking this one out if you're determined to rise up in your organization. You'll find that article and all of our articles at Jordan Harbinger.com slash articles. Today we're doing a little bit of a different type of

Feedback Friday earlier this year. Was that this year? Time has slowed way down. We did an April Fool's Day episode. That was episode 490 by the way. We took some of the strangest, funniest, most unexpected questions we get here on the show. Y'all seem to like it. So we're in that similar vein, not quite as ridiculous, because, you know, we don't get that many, but we get some. We got a little bit of a WTF episode here. We've got some super interesting ones as well as some ridiculous ones, and I'm excited to dive on in. All right. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailback? and Gabe. I'm a 27-year-old guy who has struggled with dating all my life. I'm an introvert with

social anxiety and I had zero dating experiences in high school or college. That all changed about three years ago when I was in a particularly dark place. I'd been fired from my job and was depressed and living at home with my parents. I had a decent amount of money saved up, so I got into the world of sugar dating and escort sites, basically paying women to go on dates and have sex with me. I got a lot of attention on these sites due to my young age, while some of these meetups were I left many of them feeling unfulfilled and lonely. I got particularly close with one girl who opened up to me that she was a victim of sexual assault and that she struggled with dating herself.

It felt as though things might transition into a quote-unquote normal relationship with her, but when I brought the idea up, she started pulling away and shortly dumped me altogether. I've since left the sugar lifestyle completely. I started seeing a therapist, got a stable job, moved out of my parents' house, and purchased a car. I feel like my life has done a total 180, and I now want to pursue a, regular dating more seriously. But I struggle with when and how I should disclose my past to someone I'm dating, or whether I should even mention it at all. I feel it's an important part of who I am and where I've come from, but I can also see how it might scare someone off. What's more, I struggle to get matches in

online dating, and when I do match with someone, they rarely respond to my message. Money was a way to get my foot in the door with women. Without it, I struggle with how to demonstrate that I'm someone worth getting to know. I've thought about taking time away from dating to work on myself, maybe focus on getting fit to build up confidence, but this feels like it's just avoiding the problem. How can I make the transition to a normal, healthy dating life? Signed, looking for a mate without the bait. Wow, dude, quite the journey you've been on. Well done on going to therapy, getting a good job, moving out. It sounds like you were in a pretty low place before, which it makes sense that that led you into the world of escorts and sugar dating. You are basically competing with

the one asset you felt you had and the people you met were more than happy to take advantage of that. But things are different now. You've done a lot of work on yourself. Now you're in a place to actually connect with someone authentically. And I just want to give you major props for that. I'm sure that it probably took a ton of work and courage and introspection on your part. So first of all, should you disclose your past to somebody that you're dating and should you even mention it at all? My take is if it feels like it's an important part of your story and you want to share those parts of yourself with somebody that you're in a serious relationship with, which I think is generally a good idea. Sure, go ahead and share it. I probably wouldn't do that

on the first few dates. I'd probably build some trust and empathy first in both directions. But I also wouldn't hide it for a year and then pop up at brunch one day. Like, yeah, so I used to Venmo Girls on Backpage.com to bang it out after I bought them a fancy handbag. You just have... Not the best way to handle that. No. Anyway, have you tried these crepes there? Delicious. Right? You have to find that right moment where this won't disqualify you prematurely, but it also won't come, like, as the weird secret that you've been sitting on for way too long. Right.

The key to telling this story to somebody that you're dating, in my opinion, that's really about having a good handle on it. If you frame this like, listen, I like you, I'm really enjoying getting to know each other. I want to share something with you. It's kind of out there. It's a little embarrassing. But it's part of my story, and I just want you to know. Basically, a few years ago, I was in a really bad place. I thought I only had value if I had money, and I got into this whole weird sort of sugar dating thing.

I eventually realized how empty it was. It forced me to work through all the stuff that led me there. And as you can see, I'm a different person now. I don't intend to ever do it again. I don't even recognize that guy anymore. But I also just don't want to hide stuff from you because things are going well. So there it is. If you can put it that way, then I think it'll be a lot easier for her to accept.

But you'll have to have a lot of clarity and acceptance around this part of your past. If you tell the story and you're hemming and hauling and you're avoiding eye contact or you're getting emotional about it, which by the way, that's totally fair. This is probably a pretty raw thing to talk about, but if you struggle with your feelings, then she'll pick up on that. And that'll make it a lot harder for her to wrap her head around. So I would do your best to process all the feelings this brings up before you talk about it, especially the shame. That's probably the overriding emotion here so that you can be secure and vulnerable when you do decide to open up. But part of this is also risking whatever reaction you get to this story.

Even if you've fully accepted this chapter of yourself, it might still be hard for somebody else to do that. She might be put off or uncomfortable or confused or angry. She might not know how to even respond. And then you can say, I get it. It's a little gross, a little weird. Maybe it makes you feel a little differently about me. So let's talk about it. You can ask me anything you want.

I want you to understand how different I am now and how far I've come. Yeah, that's such a good way to put it, Jordan. And hopefully she will understand him and accept it. But if she doesn't, which sucks, but it is a possibility, then you have to accept that and know that someone else's reaction. That doesn't have to dictate how you feel about yourself, which gets into the second piece of your letter here, your struggle to get matches and online dating. So look, I feel your pain.

Tons of people struggle with this. This is kind of like the running joke with online dating, right? It's like, I can't find anyone. And when I do talk to them, they don't message me back. Like, everyone I know says that. So you're not alone. I wish we could diagnose exactly what's going on here. that's way more than we can do in a single podcast. But what I'm curious about is how you described

this problem, because you said that money was a way to get your foot in the door with women, that without money you struggle to demonstrate that you're somebody worth getting to know. Those are your words. You've obviously come a very long way in that department, but it sounds to me like you're still carrying around some beliefs about what makes you compelling to people, what makes you desirable, what makes you worthy, basically, of being in a relationship. So when you're not leading with money, it sounds like you're not really. sure what to lead with. The answer, of course, is that you lead with your personality, your accomplishments, your behavior, you know, being kind, being engaged, being funny,

working hard, being loyal, being passionate, taking care of yourself, mentally, emotionally, you know, being there to take care of other people in the same way. I mean, that's what we look for in a partner, right? So the money, that was a proxy for those aspects of your personality that I'm guessing were not as developed back then, but they are developed now and they're still developing, and those are the qualities that you're going to want to lead with. No asset or technique is ever going to compensate for who you are as a person. That's the one thing. The one thing you just can't hack or paper over or compensate for. You know, you actually have to be a great person. You actually have to be a good partner. And you have to know that that's enough. So your idea to

work on yourself, build up your confidence? Yeah, I'm all for that. But just getting fit for appearances, that's not going to do it. My hunch is that getting super fit, getting shredded, that's just going to be another version of money for you, another proxy for your personality, another Band-Aid basically on the real issue. I'm all for staying in shape, being healthy, feeling good, looking good, of course. Take care of yourself, that's important. But if you're hoping to find a sense of completeness or worthiness in the gym, you're not going to find it. You can only really find that inside of your, oh, sounds so disney, but you're only going to find that inside of yourself.

cringe, cue the music. Que the music, but also it's the perfect soundtrack to the problem you're going through, right? You can only find that somehow in the processes that are going on inside of yourself and in close relationships. And of course, in a therapist's office, because what you're really trying to figure out here is these themes of worth and identity and personality and values. Unpacking your childhood and whatever else led you to this moment. And that takes a hell of a lot of work and it takes time, but it's worth it because that's the sort of hack you're looking for that you can't really hack at all. Exactly. You're asking for dating advice. You're trying to figure out how to talk about your past,

but really, you need to go figure out who you really are when you strip away all of this stuff. And if you can figure that out, the dating will become a very different experience for you. A lot less stressful, first of all, and far more meaningful. So good luck, my man. You're doing great. You're on an upward swing.

You've come a very long way. Keep on going. By the way, Gabe, funny story. I don't know what made me think of this, but a while ago, somebody reported that they saw my pictures on Tinder. No way. Which is funny, because that means that somebody stole them and made a Tinder profile, which is kind of pathetic, right?

Because, like, if you're going to pretend to be somebody else and steal photos, why would you steal mine? Like, come on. What is your plan? You don't look like me for sure, so it's not like you're going to meet up and you just couldn't get good photos of yourself. Like, it's a con job, but why not pick someone else that has maybe, you know, is a little bit more eye-catching?

I just thought that was kind of funny and pathetic and, like, kind of, like a sad con at the same time. That's kind of amazing, but I have questions. So did they put their name as Jordan? Do you know? You know what? I'm not sure. Somebody reported, I've seen your, you know, profile up on Tinder, but it wasn't me. Like, they knew it wasn't me. So it must not have said Jordan because then they would just have assumed that it's me. Got it. And that I'm on Tinder, I guess, which is weird, because I'm married. So they really were just trying to use your punum. Yeah. To catch some girls. Right. That's funny. But probably like website stolen from the website photos, which is ridiculous or stolen from social media. So I just thought that was kind of funny and silly. And the other little anecdote here. So there was a website, there's many of these websites, but a long time ago when I was writing for, I probably shouldn't say, I was writing for a men's website. It wasn't Playboy or anything. It was like, I'm going to get it wrong, so I'm just not going to say what it is.

But I was writing for a lot of these sort of magaziney websites. And I got invited to a party because the senior editor got the invite and couldn't go. And it was in L.A. And it was like some sort of, it was a Sugar Daddy dating party. No way. So all these like Sugar Daddy guys got invited. and then a bunch of the girls sugar babies or whatever they got that got invited. And I was like, oh, I'm definitely going to go because it's going to be kind of a weird thing.

And one, I ran into my friend there. And I was like, what are you doing here? He's like, what are you doing here? I was like, I got a freaking media pass. You're busted, you know? And he's like, no, I got a media pass too, which he totally did. So that was kind of funny because I thought, oh, I got one on you now. The other thing, and he's like, oh, my friend runs this.

I was like, okay. And his friend turned out to be another person that now is like an online sort of scammy guru who you've seen on YouTube. which I thought was kind of funny. That adds up. But what was really funny was how horrible the women were there. They were so trashy. It wasn't like regular women who were like, look, I'm a college student.

It was literally just like a ton of kind of like street level prostitution types. Like girls were like fighting, yelling, throwing things. And a lot of the guys were like older and very nice and normal. And I felt like, how do you put up with this? Now that could have been the selection. the party was in downtown L.A., which also probably doesn't attract a lot of sort of, like, upper class or middle class of these types of folks. But what the kicker was, I couldn't use the bathroom because it was one bathroom.

It was held in like a penthouse. I knocked, and these girls were like yelling at me and cussing me out because they were doing whatever in the bathroom. And I was like, there's a line. People have to go. So I go in the bathroom finally after they cussed me out to no end. I lock the door. And when I come out, there are police everywhere.

Oh, my God. What? There's people in handcuffs and stuff. and I'm like, oh God, I'm about to get arrested. And I was like, I walk up to this female cop and I'm like, I'm a journalist, I have a media past, what's going on? I'm not involved in the business end of this. And she goes, it's fine.

We busted this because, one, it's an unauthorized gathering, but two, we heard it's for this sugar daddy dating thing. And these are just fronts for prostitution, basically, which makes sense, right? It's kind of like what he said, Homeboy said in the letter. And I'm talking with this female vice cop and I'm like, your job must be crazy. and we're talking and talking and talking. And eventually I'm like, I got to like this. Girl's really cool.

So I got her phone number for media reasons, even though they're definitely, it was clear that it wasn't for that at all. And obviously, police have spokesmen for this stuff anyway. So we went out on a date. You went on a date? That's amazing.

With one of these cops who had like nine years of experience in the LA Vice Squad. Tell me everything. There's not much more to the story. I mean, we went on a date. She was really, really cool. But obviously, like, she was actually a little bit older than me.

It wasn't really a big deal. but I just wasn't feeling sort of the chemistry part, but she was so interesting, obviously. Wow. Right? Because L.A. Vice Squad, or I think it might have been called something else, but honestly, my memory has Vice Squad written on the back of their, those plastic windbreaker jackets.

She had stories for days. Also, she was kind of hard to pin down, because her schedule was like, whenever I'm not raiding a prostitute party, we can hang out, you know? And I'm like, okay, I need, like, a time and a day. But it was really funny to, like, be like these, you know, I'm being mistreated here. This is kind of bad who's putting up with this.

And then I walk out of the bathroom. They're all getting arrested. They're all lined up on the wall in handcuffs. And I thought, this is funny. And you left for the date. And it's the vice cop. Right. That's what a meet cute.

Yeah. It was. It was a meat weird for sure. And, oh, the other reason they were there was because a lot of the people who are at the party, the women who were at the party, they had open warrants or outstanding warrants on them for, you know, just a lot of things. Because people who cuss people out who need to pee when they're hogging in the bathroom or who are at a prostitute party.

under a guise of me, you know, dating thing. Usually they've been up to no good before that. So I just thought it was such a funny scene. But that's my insight to this scene is I'm sure there are some people that are just like, I'm a college student, this is my thing. But I think there's a lot of like, no, this is how I meet dudes online for prostitution and pretend that it's legit. So that's my sugar dating story too.

So, but basically my dude here who wrote in with Q1, it's a good thing to be away from because a lot of times you're not just meeting people who can't afford to go out to eat. you're meeting people who this is their profession and there's a lot of damage that's unaddressed. The girl he was talking about who he met and he thought it would progress into a real relationship and then she ran. I mean, either it wasn't ever going to go there and she thought he was going to be more trouble than he was worth or she cut and run because she was scared of actually connecting with people. You can't date in a pool that has a bunch of that, right?

The real dating pool has enough of that. Going into a pool that sort of specializes in that sort of thing, now you're really going to have trouble meeting people who are of quality. in that kind of pool, in that kind of industry. Anyway, you can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job a whole lot easier.

If you can include the state and country that you live in, that'll help us give you even more detailed advice. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work, whether to invite your estranged, manipulative half-sister to your wedding.

Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey Jordan. Congrats on baby number two on the way. I love the alliteration theme that your family has going with the J names.

Jordan, Jen, Jaden. I can't help but wonder how intentional that was. Did you decide that you wanted a J name and pick Jaden? Or did you just love the name and it happened to start with a J? Now that you've got three Js, I'm assuming you have to stick with the theme for baby number two or they'll feel left out, right? What happens if you hear a name you love or want to name the baby after someone meaningful and that name doesn't fit?

I might be overthinking the semantics here, but then again, Rob is the only Kardashian without a K name, and he always seems to be on the outs. Signed, divining the nature of this nomenclature. Hilarious. This whole J-name decision really did become an unexpected thing here on the show. It wasn't the plan at all, but I like the accidental branding. So, yes, we're sticking with the J theme for baby number two. We've got so many names we love that don't start with a J, but what we'll probably do is choose one of those and make it a middle name.

there's actually no special significance to the J theme other than Jen and I happen to be J's, and we decided to be that annoying couple and use all J names. But it actually kind of came from the show because up until last year or so, I worked with producer Jason on Feedback Friday, and people would address their letters as Triple J or J Squad or whatever, and we ended up applying that to the family because we're dorks, basically. And then Gabe came along and ruined everything with his stupid G name, friggin' Gabe. Yeah, dear J-Cube and G doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

No. No, you've ruined everything. I hope you're happy, J. Briel. I wish it were J-Briel. That would be one way to preserve it. Yeah, sorry, man. I didn't mean to ruin that. No worries.

We had a good thing going before I came along. That's true. That's true. So, yeah, we're going to try and figure out some J-name. I'm open to suggestions. You can always send those to me, preferably on Instagram or email. Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com is a great way to throw those in the list.

Actually, email's better, because then I can forward them to Jen and add them to our giant list of J names. By the way, if you're joining us for the first time or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we now have episodes starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by topic,

and it'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start to get started. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I was recently offered the position of assistant grandmaster in my Masonic district. Okay, hold up a second. So let me clarify here.

Masonic District, like the Freemasons, like this guy's a Freemason. That's what it sounds like, yeah. Cool. So this is a first, right? I don't think a Freemason has ever written into the show before. Actually, they probably have. But do we even know what Freemasonry is? I feel like I hear about Freemasons on History Channel at 2 o'clock in the morning,

but I don't really know a whole lot about what they're about. Right. Okay. So there's a lot of conspiracy theories surrounding the Masons, but as far as I can tell, I'm not an expert. But basically, Freemasonry or Masonry is a fraternal organization that, But if I remember correctly, it kind of grew out of the local guilds of stone masons in the 13th century. Actually, it's the biggest fraternal organization in the world.

It has apparently more than six million members around the world, which is pretty wild. I'm going to oversimplify a lot here. But, okay, so it's like it's a group that believes in a higher power and morality and brotherhood. There's a big emphasis on supporting other members and holding high moral standards and dealing in symbols and signs and secret handshakes and stuff like that. Got it. So it's basically a fancy fret for a member. men who like wearing cool rings.

Royalty cosplay for grownups with a moral guidance angle. I like it. Yes, pretty much. Although, Mason's would probably take some offense to that, honestly. It just sounds like an affinity group with a very long history. A lot of people call it a cult or a religion.

I wouldn't know, really, but I'm guessing nothing too crazy happens in there. It's just a place for people to gather and help one another out and all that jazz. In fact, a lot of prominent people in history have apparently been Mason's. I didn't know this,

but I just found out president, CEOs, some writers. I guess it's a pretty big part of history. Yeah, I'm joking about the whole sort of role play thing. I mean, it's probably a men's club that's similar to any other, only it's older and has deeper tradition. A lot of the conspiracy stuff always, whenever you shine light on that, it's always based on like one urban legend from like 1492. Okay, so this guy is an assistant grandmaster in his district. So he's like the assistant to the Freemason elected to oversee their jurisdiction or whatever. Yeah, the deputy sorcerer of the

local chapter. Is that what it's called? No, I'm just funny. Okay, because I'm like, that's some sort of almost, I don't want to make a clan comparison, but they have weird names like that. Okay, so you just made that up. Yeah, no, no, no. How flattering. I'm just joking around. This guy's going to be so upset with us when he hears this letter. Yeah, we're just kidding, of course.

Yeah, we're totally kidding. Okay, so he continues. This is a huge honor, especially since I'm only 38, the average age of English Masons is 60. And I've only been a member of the district for four years. Nicely done. Jordan, you think he got this far in the organization using a six-minute network? Of course, right, right? This is definitely some six-minute networking stuff.

Six-minute networking. If you want to climb the ranks of the new world order Illuminati, sign up today. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Nice. The problem is, he continues, the problem is that I'm planning to leave the district soon to look for work elsewhere. Though the position is mainly ceremonial and offered as a thank you for work already done, I'm afraid I won't be able to fulfill the few responsibilities of the role to the best

of my abilities, and I would be deceiving the district grandmaster if I accept and don't tell him that I might not be living nearby for long. I can always fly back for district grand lodge meetings, but this isn't really in the spirit of things. So what should I do? Yours sincerely and fraternally, the not so for you, Mason. Well, my dream of giving advice on how to navigate a global conspiracy is finally coming true. Now, I'm sure this organization is, like I said, like any other organization when it comes to logistics and responsibilities. So we'll just treat it like any other job. Y'all tinfoil hat people can yell at me about how the masons control Hollywood or whatever in my inbox. that's Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com because Gabe checks it. Basically, you've been given this big

honor, but you're moving away for a new job and you don't know if you can actually fulfill the role. And you don't want to lie to your district grandmaster and fly in for meetings, but that's not very cool anyway, feels deceitful. So really you have a few options of varying quality. Option one, you stick around to do the role, you give up the job, which it sounds like you don't want to do. You still have to prioritize your career, and that means moving away. That's probably not a real option. Option two, you accept the role, but you don't tell your district grandmaster that you might move away in the near future. Then you cross that bridge when you come to it and either give up the role or figure out a way to do both. Option three, you accept the role but still move away and fly in from meetings.

You said that really isn't in the spirit of things, but maybe if you're open about it, they'll make an exception. Or you keep a secret, but that might violate some Masonic rule of loyalty and honesty, which I assume they have. So your district grandmaster could find out later and then you look shady. So option four, you turn down the role because you're moving away. You tell your district grandmaster, you want to make sure that he has somebody he can totally rely on in the area. And you're very honored and you hope to play this role in the future, but it's just impossible right now with work. You miss out on the opportunity, which is a bummer, but at least you're not lying or letting anyone down. I can't tell you what to do, but those are your options. I think it really comes down to how seriously

you take the Freemason rules, of course, which you should take them seriously in any sort of organization that you're in, how much risk you're willing to take on, and what priority the organization has in your life. If this were me, I'd prioritize my career over the honorary role as cool as it is, but that's easy for me to say. Nobody's ever asked me to be part of a secretive global cabal before, real or imagined. Honestly, I'd just go to your district grandmaster and be like, look, I'm super honored. I've given a lot to the organization. It would be amazing to step into this role, but I'm moving away soon for work. Is there some way to make this work? Can I fly in for meetings? can I join the meetings by Zoom?

Can I come in for every other one? That kind of thing. And if he's like, no, you have to live within a 10-mile radius to be my assistant, then maybe you ask him about other roles, other ways to stay involved, or you carve out a new role of your own, if that's even possible. So there you have it. Hopefully you can have your Masonic cake and eat it too. Good luck, man.

You're listening to Feedback Friday here on the Jordan Harbinger show. We'll be right back. When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha-chings from every channel, right in one spot, and turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities.

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And now, back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I have a question that might not seem important, but I've been grappling with it for a while. Do you shower in the morning or at night? I found this to be a pretty polarizing question. I know you're a lawyer, not my lawyer,

but it would be great if you could break down the pros and cons of each and share your stance once and for all. all signed, not trying to pry. I just want to know why. Yeah, well, lawyers are not experts in hygiene. I've worked with a lot of them and I wish they were. But finally a real question, right? So I shower when I have time, which is often in the morning if I have a show because I want to look clean if I can. But if not, it might get skipped. Gross, I know, but let's be honest, we're all working from home. I also shower at night because there are sleep benefits to cooling down the body before sleep. This is the important part, right? Especially with a shower, I need to

all the help I can get, especially with quality and length of something called deep sleep. So you have REM where you have dreams, you've got deep sleep where your body rests, among other things, and you have light sleep, which is the majority of your sleep. I need deep sleep help. And I've got a sleep coach, and I do all kinds of things. I track it with an aura ring. There's really a lot that I've been doing to work on my deep sleep and showering before bed and cooling down is one of the best ways to do it. I think you can also do ice baths, but no thanks. How about you, Gabe? What are you doing? Uh, night shower mostly, but pre-Panitya, I was definitely a morning shower guy. Now I'm definitely a night shower guy. Although if I have meetings or I'm recording an episode like you all shower during the day, so you guys don't have to look at my work from home face for an entire hour. Just, you know, smart doing it for the fans. Yeah, appreciate that. Do you get a lot of ideas in the shower? Are you one of those people? Yeah, I do. I actually have a notepad and it's a waterproof notepad. So don't try this. Don't try it with a regular notepad. I can, the results are as poor as you think they would be. And it comes with like a little pencil. I do a lot of thinking. in the shower. It's probably not very eco-friendly, but it works. I really do, I accidentally get ideas in the

shower. That's why the notepad is in there. The Aqua Notes are what those are called. You can look that up. We'll link to it in the show notes. It's an Amazon product and you can use our link and find the exact ones, because there are some crappy ones. There's good ones as well that you should be able to write something down in the shower. I also started bringing my phone in there, not to like check Instagram, but I'll often be listening to a podcast or I'll get an idea and I'll want to throw it right into an app. So I, yeah, man, I do get a lot of ideas in the shower. And it drives me nuts if I can't dump the idea somewhere and I can't think or do anything else in the shower becomes totally unrelaxing if I can't write it down.

What about you? Yeah, I do get ideas in the shower. They say that something about busing yourself with some unrelated task like freeze up. I can't remember that. What's that word called? Default mode network. Yes, default mode network. Exactly.

Yeah. And then like new thoughts pop up. It's funny about that shower thing you have. What is it called? The notepad, the aquanotes. Aquanotes, yeah. I remember when I stayed at it. your house a few years ago. I remember writing you a limerick on that notepad when I stayed on. Oh,

nice. I don't know if you guys ever found that. I just thought maybe it'd be funny when you We must have, but it's possible we didn't know who wrote it because we probably found it like six months later if it was in the guest bathroom. Oh, no, no. I signed my work, Jordan. Oh, okay. I would know if it was, yeah, I always signed my work and dated. It was some stupid limerick about how I was, I should have been focusing on getting clean and instead I was focusing on making you laugh in the aquanets or something like that. Yeah, that sounds about right. Glad to know that it was it made such an impact. Jen probably still has it.

People draw us pictures and stuff on there all the time. Well, there you have it. Morning showers and night showers. That's how we do it. On that note with the sleep stuff, I also walk a lot, especially in the evening when it's not 90 degrees outside in California in the summer.

So a shower at night is great for me. It does help my body get into deep sleep for bed. So if you're tracking your sleep and you're trying to improve it, a nighttime shower is actually pretty key, followed by blue-blocking glasses and a cool sleeping environment. All right, next up.

Hello, Gordon and Jabe. Oh, well, that might be the way to preserve the J. No, but I would ruin the Jain. Yeah, but then it ruined my name. Yeah. Pass on that, yeah. I'm a woman in my early 30s with a challenging but fulfilling career as a community-based mental health counselor

in rural conservative Southwest Virginia. I'm a fierce mental health advocate for the worst of the worst cases of psychotic disorders like schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder and patients with major depression. I've been trying to jumpstart my dating life after ending a relationship a few years ago. I'm nothing special to look at. I'm your classic overweight basic white bitch with a personality that could be described as wellming. But I've been doing the single person focusing on a career thing for the last few years and now the thirst is real.

That's hilarious. Yes, this is, okay. So whenever anybody write something like that and then says, eh, but my personality's mediocre, you're already way more cool than everybody else, right? Totally. So I see what you did there. Very clever. Also, the description of overweight basic white bitch.

is pretty funny and jarring. So I hope that's in your dating profile because I would stop and read it at that rate. So would I. So she continues. I think I can find the right person to share my little slice of lower middle class Appalachia country paradise. But I'm struggling because I have no family and a limited social circle I can rely on for setups. So I'm mostly left with online dating. My problem is that almost all of my clients have profiles on basically every dating site, covering my entire geographic area for 250 miles. Seriously, I've checked. Okay. This puts me, this puts me in the awkward position of putting up personal details that will most definitely be seen and discussed among many of my clients who also interact with one another regularly.

I can use a fake name, but obviously my cover will be blown if I post a picture of my face. There's no real therapeutic protocol for talking with people who have schizophrenia and serious delusions about my desire to have dinner with suitors of either gender, and I just don't. don't have the energy to enforce this boundary with my clients on the reg. All of this has contributed to my growing fear of ever being able to find a date again. Do you have any advice for a girl trying to kickstart her libido on the DL in a hella rural area and keep it separate from work? Oof. Signed a country shrink, look in a link without having to slink.

This is a really fascinating question, Gabe. I've never really thought about what it's like for a therapist to be dating nowadays. It's got to just be a minefield of potential. issues. It's a minefield for everyone. So imagine when you have a bunch of clients, right, I really feel for you. This is quite a conundrum, having to choose between your patients and your love life. It seems like a huge sacrifice and probably pretty stressful to navigate. So as per ush, we wanted an expert in this world to weigh in. So we consulted with the one and only Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist, friend of the show. And the first thing Dr. Margolis

pointed out is there's actually no clear ethical guideline on this issue. This is new, territory for mental health providers, social media in general, and online dating in particular. And she confirmed that it's much harder in rural areas, for sure. All across the country, therapists are on Twitter and Bumble and TikTok, and I'm sure they're stumbling across their patients' profiles from time to time, which means it's likely that the patients are stumbling across their profiles, and that's just a whole new phenomenon. It's weird, it's ambiguous, and in terms of how to handle it, it's kind of just the Wild West right now. So Dr. Margolis' take here, and I agree with her completely, is that a therapist in your position basically has to decide where

her boundary is. Either you don't do the online dating thing to avoid disclosing things to your patients and risking their reaction, or you do the online dating thing and you come up with a plan for how to handle it when it comes up in your sessions. Of course, it's possible that one of your patients will see you on Tinder or whatever, and they'll learn things about you that you, maybe they wouldn't have known otherwise that you wouldn't have disclosed. And that kind of unintentional self-disclosure, that can affect the therapeutic relationship. It can affect what comes up or doesn't come up in a session. It can shape how a patient feels about you, all that. But if you're prepared for that conversation, it could be totally navigable. And who knows, maybe it could even strengthen the relationship.

But I know that you're working with a very difficult patient population here. Maybe people with hallucinations or delusions or just a shaky grip on reality. Maybe they'll find it especially difficult to wrap their heads around seeing their therapist on OKCupid. You know your patient's better than we do, so that's your call to make. That said, Dr. Margolis did point out that even therapists have to live their lives. It's admirable that you're so dedicated to your patients, but your love life is important too. And Dr. Margolis made another good point, which was, even if you met someone organically, you could still run into a patient when you're on a date with them at a bar, right? So how would you address that? If you're willing to handle that disclosure, would you be willing

to handle the conversation about a dating profile? So really, this is all about, how important it is to you to be able to meet people online. It might be the only option you really have right now from meeting people and you have to balance that against the needs of your patients. Also, you could, and this is a bit of work, but you could go through the sites and preemptively block anyone who's a patient of yours. It's no small task, I understand that. But then they'd never see you. And even if you didn't catch all of them, you're lowering the odds of an incidental interaction with everyone that you block. Yeah, that's a good point. And I do think Dr. Margulose is totally right. therapists have to live their lives. And I don't know, I know her situation is unique, but also,

is she prepared to be potentially single for the rest of her life if she really wants to settle down? Just because she happens to work with this difficult patient population, that's a very difficult trade-off to wrap your head around. So if you do decide to do the online dating thing, here are a few helpful tips. First of all, I would try to be as private and as thoughtful about this as possible. You probably don't want to lie about your orientation or your location or other meaningful details, but maybe you stay away from like super sexy photos or charged political statements or very explicit preferences, stuff like that. Create your profile knowing that your clients or your colleagues or friends of these people, they might see it. And I would try to take

advantage of as many privacy options as you can, although I know there aren't very many on dating apps. That's like famously not very private. But you could, for example, look, some dating apps give you the option of going incognito, which lets you stay invisible except to people you choose to message, stuff like that. That could be clutch for a professional in your position. The other thing Dr. Mergel has said you could do is get an ethical consult about how to handle this. You could reach out to your local licensing board, your local ethics board, your liability insurance, or just maybe the organization you work with and you can just tell them, hey, I'm thinking about getting on a dating site. I know I'm not the only clinician to struggle with how to handle this. Are there any ethical guidelines, any practical

guidelines that I should be aware of? You know, get their take. Dr. Margulis pointed out that this would actually be a good CYA move no matter what. And then if a client does bring it up in session, you can consult with this body or this ethical liaison again as necessary. You could also consult with a colleague or a supervisor at the organization you work with, or maybe you could talk with a colleague at a similar organization, or somebody who works in a similar modality to you, or even with a similar patient population, tell them what you're going through, get their advice. Maybe hearing how other clinicians have handled this conversation with their patients, maybe that'll make you feel more comfortable doing it yourself. And on a related note,

I would document anything that's relevant. Any calls you make to an ethics liaison, the details of your dating profile, your notes from patient sessions, if this topic comes up, notes about any encounters you have with patients out in public, that would be great to have if you ever have to prove that you handled this responsibly. Yes, good idea. And in terms of how to actually have this conversation with the patient, Dr. Morgollas had some good ideas there as well. So first of all, she said that she wouldn't try to get out ahead of this, like, so hey,

just FYI, I'm on Tinder now. So if you see me on there, just swipe left, pretend it didn't happen, you know, something like that, that's probably not worth it. Because, you know, what if they never see you? And then you have to like disclose that for no good reason. And since you're dealing with patients who are severely compromised, Dr. Murgulis said that she would be extra careful about framing this conversation in case anyone ever did see your profile. So she said she probably wouldn't say something as pointed as, what did it feel like to learn a bisexual or something like that? She would probably go a little bit broader, something like, how was it for you to see me on the app? What was that like for you? That kind of

thing and then have that professional boundary to conversation and more general terms. And that'll probably change depending on the type of client you're talking to. For example, if you're talking to somebody who struggles with attachment, who struggles with boundaries or somebody who has strong opinions about sexual orientation, you might want to talk to that person differently from the way you would talk to someone who's more secure in your relationship or who's more respectful of boundaries or who's more progressive or whatever it happens to be. By the way, we're also going to link in the show notes to a really great study. We found on the ethical considerations for therapists, using dating apps these days, that might be super interesting for you to check out.

And if you do decide to go on a date with somebody, maybe it's a good idea to do some homework before meeting up, because as you know, it is possible to match with patients' partners, ex-partners, family members, or maybe even former colleagues or supervisors, trainees, whatever it is. Especially if you're living in a small town, I can just imagine six degrees, right? It's like, you just know everybody. So maybe you ask a date about their close family members or their friends on the phone before you meet up or you cross-reference their social media before you meet.

I know that's a lot of work. I know that's borderline creepy. Maybe it's annoying to do when you don't really know this person, but it could save you some trouble down the line. So bottom line, you're going to have to decide which of these two parts of your life takes priority. Me personally, I think you deserve to have a love life. Every basic bitch does, right?

Online dating, he self-described, online dating is a necessary part of that in your neck of the woods, literally woods slash marshlands slash prairie. And I'd try to figure out a way to plan for the risk of somebody seeing you. And who knows, maybe learn. learning how to have this conversation with difficult patients will make you an even better therapist. But I'm not the one who has to be in the room. I don't know what it's like to treat these patients,

so that's very easy for me to say, I just hate to see you throw away this big element of your social life. And if you want to avoid all this, maybe you start making a little extra effort to meet people organically. It's an extreme effort probably for people in your situation. But chat up the guy in line with you at Starbucks, talk to the girl on the airplane, hit up a couple mental health conferences every year, Whatever it is, maybe if you put your antenna up a little bit more, you won't even need Tinder, but there's no shame in it if you do. You're interesting, you're hilarious, you're doing really important work, you sound like a catch. I hope you find somebody awesome, so good luck out there.

This is the Jordan Harbinger show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right, next step. Hey, Jordan. I'm a longtime listener, and the style of your show inspired me to start a podcast. We just dropped our first episode, and after having listened to it, it, I realize that I have a lot of work to do with my business partner. Having built up the old show

and now the Jordan Harbinger show, what would you suggest is the best way to start building my podcast? I've listened to a bunch of your interviews on other shows about this, which were great, but what would you say should be the top priority when you're just starting out? Love the show and keep up the good work, signed. Is this thing on? I get this question a lot. There's no one-size-fits-all answer. Every podcaster has their own story of starting and growing and breaking out or not. podcasting is a very saturated and unpredictable industry. There are so many weird variables at work, and a lot of this is figuring out what works for you. But here are a few thoughts. First of all, in my opinion, podcasting should be done as a hobby and not as a business, at least at first.

It's something like the movie business, I would imagine. The top 1%, if that, make a lot of money. Virtually nobody else makes anything or anything to write home about. You got to start somewhere, of course, but planning to make a living podcasting, it's kind of like planning to make it in Hollywood. Even if you're super talented and you're a hard worker, it might never happen. And it's not a good bet because so much of it is luck as it is with any creative endeavor. A lot of people forget that I've been doing this for 14 years or so. I started recording the original version of this show on my laptop, literally in a basement. I could not have been more of an amateur. I did it because I loved it. I was just trying to experiment and learn as much as possible. I definitely worked hard to turn it

into a business, but that was a very gradual process. It just doesn't work out for most people, and there were a lot of dead ends and roadblocks and plateaus and lucky breaks as well. So I'm just sharing that to give you a little perspective. One rule I have for myself is never do a podcast unless you'd be willing to do it for free, because usually that's the case anyway. Once you start to monetize your show, congrats. That can be a goal for sure. But it should be something you depend on as a long-term bet or something that you need to happen because it's too slow, it's too unpredictable to bank on. It really just, and it most of the time doesn't work out. But in terms of what you should be focusing on, in my opinion, right now it's all about the craft.

It's always all about the craft. But your skills as a podcaster, your actual skills, this means your actual hosting, first and foremost, what you talk about, how you talk about it, the quality of what you talk about, the style and tone and the format of your show, all of that stuff. But it also means all the ancillary skills around that, your production quality, your marketing, your branding, your audience engagement, but it all begins and ends with those core hosting skills. I recommend getting coaching for pretty much everything. Improv, voice, acting, voice acting, right? That can be a mix of actual one-on-one coaching, group classes, remote tutorials, e-courses, YouTube videos, although those are usually pretty low quality, in my opinion, and a ton of self-teaching

an experimentation. It's no different from learning any other skill, although you'll have to flail around publicly for a long time while you get good, which a lot of people are not comfortable doing. I would also read a ton. Become an expert in your field if you're not one already. You have to know what you're talking about and what your guests or your partners are talking about if you're going to be anything close to a compelling authority. And then you have to keep learning constantly. That's usually the only way to become a conversationalist who gets a fan base big enough to monetize in the first place. And the learning never ends. The hustle is constant. It's an ongoing process of expanding and leveling up and being kind of a dilettante, amateur, Renaissance man or woman,

all in one. So in my view, your top priority should be developing your skills because those are non-negotiable. They're the foundation of everything. You're probably going to end up pivoting a few times in terms of your show content and the audience and the branding, and you might end up leaving a partner or gaining a new one before you find your niche and your rhythm. But your craft is the one constant. And without that, there just is no show. So I hope that helps. There's really no magic bullet or hack as much as people like to sell courses that say that there is. You just have to get good and you have to be willing to continue getting good. And be patient and make sure you really love it because the love is the only thing that will sustain you during the suck,

which always lasts longer than you think it will. And without that love and dedication, a show will never get good enough to really break through. So good luck. By the way, I forgot about this. I did a course on how to interview a long time ago. If you go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash how to interview, it forwards to the page.

I did it for a company called Himalaya. And I think it's like eight bucks or 20 bucks. It's some sort of membership thing, but the course that I did in there is a lot of my prep and interview skills distilled into what I think is it's either eight or ten hours. So it's a pretty good value

if you're going to be interviewing people, especially for a podcast, Jordan Harbinger.com slash how to interview and we'll link to it in the show notes as well. All right, what's next? Hey guys, I was wondering what happens to all the feedback Friday emails that aren't answered on the show.

Is there a sweatshop of emotionally broken husks of people they once were turning out response emails? Are the bloodshot eyes of Jordan and Gabe staring at computer screens? surrounded by energy drinks, or are just a handful of them chosen and the rest discarded. I really appreciate all you guys do at the Jordan Harbinger Show, and I try to share it with as many people as I can, signed, wanting to know how the sausage gets answered. Ha, well, the only emotionally broken husk of a person around here is probably Gabe, so maybe

you should take this one, man. I would not call myself emotionally broken. I would go with maybe emotionally compromised. Sounds a little better? Yeah. The husk part, though. That's pretty true. Yeah, that looks is real.

So we get a lot of emails here on the show, as you can imagine. And in the last few months, that number has kind of exploded, which is amazing. We love hearing from you guys. We love reading your letters. We do actually read every single email that we get. We just can't respond to every person individually. But if we take a question on the show, we always respond. We let the person know when their question is going to air.

So just know that if we ever choose your email, you will know about it. If we read a question that isn't a fit for the show, but it's urgent or it's important to you or it's something we can help with, we often do respond. but there are a lot of questions we just can't take on the show or we can't respond to. Unfortunately, we do have to just archive those. Oh, one note as well. If you write in and say, please don't use this on the show, 99% chance that we will not respond. Because then we can't get any value out of it for anyone else.

And usually those questions for some reason are like things we've covered a thousand times, but with one tiny detail, like your boss's name is Tom instead of Tim. So your situation's totally different. I personally just end up replying like, hey, I can't answer this. Sorry, bye. And by the way, if you're ever written in and didn't get a response, you're always welcome to try again. You can send us an update on the original situation. You can explain why you could still use some advice now or you can send us a new question and we'll read that. You know, don't be bummed if your question doesn't make it. We just get so many emails these days. We try to prioritize them by topic and by order and by urgency. And there's just no way we can get to all of them every single week. So yeah, it's not really a sweatshop because it's just me and my apartment reading your emails. Can you have a one man sweatshop? Or is that just called being a freelance? Yeah, I think that's where that is. You're just sweating alone in a room. Yeah. Also, I don't do energy drinks, just some Irish breakfast tea and a workout to get through the day. So Jordan, what's it like

to get this many emails from people every single day? Yeah, it does change the way that I connect with the, it feels like I have a more direct connection to the audience and to their lives. And I'd love it. I'd love it, to be clear. I dedicate 60 to 90 minutes to, I say fan mail and, but I mean show fan. When I say fan, I don't mean like, oh, I have fans. I mean the show has fans. I mean the show has Just to be clear, because it's so self-important to think that people care about you outside of your body of work, which is realistic. I love fan communications. I try to keep up every day, like I said, about an hour, hour and a half. It's super rewarding.

Most people are nice. Once or twice a month, at most I get a self-important dipshit that I troll or ignore. But otherwise, it's awesome. In fact, it's probably even less than that. I think it's like once every couple months I get something where I'm like, oh, this, Look at this person. And every six months to a year, I get a really hateful thing where I'm like, oh, we got a crazy. I get significantly less crazies than I would have thought. Surprisingly, Gabe, I actually got significantly less fan mail as a corporate finance attorney.

I'm not sure why, but here we are. Yeah, no one was writing you back then. Yeah, maybe that's it. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you for that. Don't forget to check out the guests, Brian Chesky of Airbnb and Kai Fu Lee on Artificial intelligence. Both good listens for you here this week. If you want to know how I managed to book all of these amazing folks on the show, it's because of software systems and tiny habits that I use

to create and maintain my network. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. In our six-minute networking course, the course is free. It's on the thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. And the drills are short. The course is free. Really, this has been crucial in my life. and it'll be crucial if you want to make your way up in the Freemason global cabal as well. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com.

Transcripts are in the show notes. Videos of interviews are on our YouTube channel. Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe, Ms. Rahi, or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, they're our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And please remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love,

and if you found this episode useful, share it with somebody who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer of our interview with Mike Roe, host of Discovery's Dirty Jobs and Returning the Favor on why the Advice Follow Your Passion is complete BS. So stay tuned. for that after the close of the show. Follow your passion as a bromide is precisely what 98% of the people do who audition for American Idol. And they're lined up.

Thousands of people who have been told, if you believe something deeply enough, and if you want something bad enough, and if you truly embrace the essence of persistence, and your passion, if you let your passion lead you, stick with it. Well, following your passion is terrific advice if the passion is taking. you to a place where opportunity and your own set of skills will be able to coexist. Passion is something that all of the dirty jobbers that I met possessed in spades. They just weren't doing anything that looked aspirational. So it was confusing.

So if a guy in a plaid shirt, sip in a cappuccino, that doesn't make sense. Well, guess what? Neither does a septic tank cleaner worth a million dollars. That guy had a million dollar business? I actually counted them up once. I could be wrong by a couple, but I put over 40 people that we featured on dirty jobs as multi-millionaires. Passion isn't the enemy. It's just not the thing you want pulling the train. But look, I don't say, don't follow your passion. I say never follow your passion, but always bring it with you. For more with Mike Rowe, including a behind-the-scenes look at some of his shows, and why we should view a blue-collar career pursuit as a cautionary tale, check out episode 264 right here on the Jordan

Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger Show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think,

the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting.

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