The Jordan Harbinger Show - 58: Jason Flom | Why Criminal Justice Reform Matters to the Innocent

Episode Date: June 21, 2018

Jason Flom (@itsjasonflom) is the founder and CEO of Lava Records responsible for launching acts such as Katy Perry, Kid Rock, and Lorde, a philanthropist who has supported and championed various political and social causes, the host of podcast Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom, and the co-author of Lulu Is a Rhinoceros. What We Discuss with Jason Flom: Why Jason has always rooted for the underdog -- from bullied siblings to sports teams to endangered species to the wrongfully incarcerated -- and how he's passed this sensibility along to the next generation of Floms. How one stays relevant in the entertainment industry, which is always asking: "What have you done for me lately?" The role relationships play at the top of the music game -- one of the most competitive industries on the planet. What we can learn from the wrongfully convicted, and why many of us are -- for the grace of good fortune -- just a hair away from a similar fate. Why Jason's bulldog is actually a rhinoceros and what he hopes this lesson will teach us about tolerance. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. Today's discussion is with my friend Jason Flom. He is a music industry executive, to say the least. He's the CEO of Lava Records, but he's been the chairman and CEO of Atlantic, Virgin,

capital music. He founded Lava Records himself. He's a philanthropist who's supported and championed a lot of causes and hosts the wrongful conviction podcast as well. And today we're a little bit of a dive into both the music industry and into the prison system. We're going to learn how one stays relevant in an industry, well, the music industry, which is always asking, what have you done for me lately? We'll explore the role relationships play at the top of the music game, one of the most competitive industries on the planet, and we'll discover what we can learn from the wrongfully convicted and why many of us are, but for the grace of good fortune, just to hair away from a similar fate.

Don't forget, we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you got all the takeaways and the practicals. That's in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. And the fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. And the worksheets are how we make sure of that. All right, here's Jason Flom. I looked you up on Instagram earlier when I was getting coffee and I saw this was your profile photo, this Bulldog. Well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because I love to fuck my Instagram. It's a very important outlet for me, and it gives me a chance to talk about a lot of the things that we're going to talk about today.

So my Instagram is, it's Jason Flom, ITS, Jason Flom. But, yeah, it's my book. I'm so excited, Jordan, because my book is coming out on Father's Day. It's available for pre-order now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.com. And my book is called Lulu is a rhinoceros. Lulu is my bulldog, but Lulu is actually not a bulldog. She's a rhinoceros trapped in a bulldog's body. The cover is her looking in a mirror, Lulu looking in a mirror and a rhinoceros is like her.

looking back at her. So she goes around trying to get anyone to believe her that her identity is, you know, is a rhinoceros. But in fact, that doesn't work because everybody, meaning everybody meaning the other animals, her human, etc., are unwilling to accept her as anything other than what her physical appearance defines her as, which is a short, fuzzy, you know, little creature with no tail. As she says, you know, when I see when I look at the mirror is a tail that whips and swirls, but what I really have is a little nub that wiggles when I'm happy, you know. So it's a fun adventure that I think is going to help give kids some important lessons about tolerance. And there's a strong anti-bullying message as well. And it's a lot of fun.

What prompted you to write a book about this when, look, you're in the music business, but also you do the Innocence Project, now this type of thing. You're a magnet for causes. For my, pretty much my entire adult life, I've been able to find an outlet for my lifelong need to help the underdog. I've always rooted for underdogs, whether it's sports teams or whatever, I'm always that guy. And, you know, I've taught my kids as well that, you know, if they ever see someone being bullied, I don't expect themselves to necessarily put themselves in harm's way. But I expect them to be on the right side of that and to, you know, provide comfort or solace or support. in whatever way. And they've grown up that way. So it's really very gratifying to me. How do you build strong kids that are willing to go, hey, look, this isn't right. And I'm going

to be nice to this person. Because I remember when other kids would bully kids that I was around, it was really hard not to just join in. In fact, sometimes it was so hard not to join in that you find yourself doing it. And I still feel bad about this. I mean, this stuff that happened 25 to 30 years ago that I still feel bad about. You know, so I wish I, I'd known back then that I would still feel bad about it three decades later. Isn't that an interesting thing that you just said, too, right? Because it has probably a more profound effect on you than on whoever was bullied, but we don't know that.

I hope he doesn't remember it. I hope he doesn't care. I hope so, too. I mean, it's a painful thing for me. My brother was a victim of terrible bullying when I was a kid, and he was my older brother. We went to different schools. And I'm still haunted by the fact that I couldn't do more to protect him. I couldn't do anything to protect him.

And, you know, he was different. and kids are, they're not accepting of people who are different by and large. And so it's a really, you know, it's a troubling thing. There's a lot of troubling things in the world. But bullying is something that is personal to me because of the experience I have with my brother. Of course, I mean, everyone's bullied at some point, right? Sure. I've even had experiences in my adult life.

Like when I started playing ice hockey and like, you know, I still remember an incident on the rink that was just, I was like, really? Like, I mean, we're adults and you're going to like. Really? Yeah. It's like, and it bugged me for a while, you know, and I'm like, what's bizarre? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a physical fight. Yeah. So like I said, I mean, for me, it comes down to helping the oppressed in general and anyone

who is down on their luck. I think it's our responsibility to lift them up. And, you know, all the stuff I do, Jordan falls under what I call selfish altruism, right? I mean, it makes me feel good. Yeah. Almost all altruism, maybe all altruism is selfish, right? I mean, if someone's going and building a house with some group that they work with, Habitat Humanity, whatever it is, that's great.

Right. And it's okay to be proud of it. You know, like, it's fine that that makes you feel good. And I think it's okay to talk about it, too, because maybe you'll inspire other people that want to do stuff like that. But we, you know, I'm fervently irreligious, but I definitely believe that we are our brother's keeper. And I think the same applies to animals.

And so I have a love for animals. And, you know, right now, ironically, rhinoceros. rhinocerxes are, I don't even know which one it is. I'm actually not sure either. Maybe both are correct. You know, they were more or less invulnerable until humans came along. And because of Eastern superstitions, rhinocerite are now on the verge of extinction. They're basically dinosaurs, right?

I mean, they've never evolved for 50 million years the way I understand it because they don't need to. They don't need to. Who's going to mess with a rhino? I mean. Poachers, man. People who want erections or something in China. Right. But the crazy thing is, and this is an important message for everyone who's listening, although I don't think anyone here probably, I mean, unless you have listeners in Asia.

We do. Oh, good. I hope they're not scraping rhino horn off. Yeah, well, it is made of the same stuff as your fingernails. I mean, it's carrot and. Just cut off your fingernails. Just snort it up, do whatever you want to do, right? Just save your clippings.

I mean, and just understand that it has zero medicinal value. It's just a horn. And it's so sad. I've been to Africa twice now. And I work with an organization called Vetpa, which is veterans empowered to protect African wildlife. And they're doing, I think, transformative work in terms of training the African Rangers and U.S. military tactics, using counterintelligence techniques that they learned that we paid for as taxpayers to infiltrate these poaching rings and arrest these guys and put them behind bars where they belong. And in the process, hopefully save a species or more than one because they protect other animals as well. Yeah, elephants, penguins and things like that.

But their focus is the rhino because the rhinos are critically endangered. And it's also providing meaningful employment for our veterans, which is something that we don't do enough. You know, it's crazy, by the way, we're getting off track here. Yeah, yeah. My son, but to get back to the book, because that's why the rhino was the logical symbol for me in the book, because I feel a very, they're like my spirit animal. But it's interesting. I had this conversation with my son the other day who actually taught an ethics class at his school. So he's like, you know, he's very much, you know, he's grown up around me.

and all my causes and stuff like that. And I'm very proud of him. And his name's Mike. How old is he? He's 18. Okay. But he said to me, Dad, you know, of all the things in society that are unacceptable, he's like, the one that just I, is just so far off the wall to me is homeless veterans.

He's like, how do we have homeless veterans? He's like, that's just not okay in any way, shape, or form. It should be so abhorrent to us. as a concept. Like, what are, I mean, who are we, that we allow that to be the case? These are the people we should be honoring. And again, lifting up, these were our heroes that are now, we're stepping over them on the street. Like, there should be a support system that's like ironclad.

Sure. That doesn't allow. And, of course, then I said to him, and, you know, what's even worse than that is the crazy numbers of U.S. military veterans were in prison in America. because of nonviolent drug crimes. Yeah. Right? They come back, wow, you got addicted.

Well, no wonder. You got PTSD. Yeah, of course. And we're going to put you in prison? No. No, we're going to give you counseling. We're going to help you in any way you need it. We're going to send you to rehab.

Not prison. Oh, my God. And there's no consideration given to them for their service. I don't understand what country we live in anymore. Well, how do you influence someone to care? I mean, your own kids, yeah, maybe it's easy to argue. Well, they grew up with me, so they saw me caring about other people. but how do you even persuade or influence other people around you to care about things like that?

Well, that's a question that I've, you know, I've been trying to address. And hopefully I will, you know, move the needle a bit. And, you know, we'll talk about my podcast. And I think that is moving the needle on the criminal justice side, which is so important to me. But with the book, back to Lulu is a rhinoceros, you know, with her, I think we're going to have an impact. Because when people read this book, and I've seen it anecdotally already with friends of mine's children or even adults. I'll stop people on the street and read them the damn book because I love it so much. I'm so proud of it. And I think it is going to have an impact. And hopefully it'll prevent bullying incidents.

And it'll prevent, you know, the next Jordan Harbinger from having to have this conversation 30 years ago with me or their shrink or whoever they go to see and say, I still feel bad about this bullying incident. Bullying comes from insecurity. Right. And I taught my kids that as well, right? It's because the person, the bully themselves is very uncomfortable and insecure. And they don't. they don't like themselves in some way. So they take that out on somebody else who's, you know, who they can victimize, who they feel, and it makes them feel in some very temporary, shallow way, superior or something. But in fact, they're making themselves miserable. So hopefully, of course, it's a lofty goal, and I recognize that. But if the book catches on, then I know it will have impact on both prevention and cure.

It'll help kids who have been victimized by these syndromes, these societal maladies we have of intolerance and bullying to give them some comfort and knowing that, you know, they're not alone. And at the same time, ideally, it'll help to prevent future incidents because of the fact that the message is clear. So these values have to be instilled early on. And now you, and that seems clear, but it seems hard to repair the damage. And going to what you're doing now at the Innocence Project, you're looking at, I don't even know if you could say repairing the damage. We're looking at the end result. of a lot of things going wrong in a lot of people's lives

and then being played out through the criminal justice system. We'll get into that in a bit because I'm familiar with the Innocence Project and have been for a long time. But I do want to get into a little bit of your story because you have an unusual kind of beginning, or maybe it is the usual beginning for a record executive. I actually don't even know. It sounds like you had lofty aspirations as a teenager

to get into music. Mom wasn't so supportive. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I had a lot more Hutzpah than talent. You know, and so what I lacked in talent I made up for in ambition and in, I was an expert at smoking weed. And I practiced a lot. You practiced a lot of smoking weed or music? Well, they went together, you know, and as they do.

And so I grew my hair. I mean, my hair was so long and so thick that I actually couldn't see in the summer. If I forgot to bring a rubber band, it was fully like just a, it was a helmet of hair and smoke that I'd live. in underneath. And so it was quite a spectacle. But I wanted to make it as a rock star. I did, I did was not interested in school. In a famous incident, my dad who was a legendary corporate lawyer, Joe Flom, which is a good story too because he was the son of immigrants who grew up so poor that when they were, when he was a kid, he and his sister Flo, which is odd, right? Flo Flom. Her name was Floom. Yeah, they were immigrant. They didn't speak English.

Like I said, her name was Florence, but she went by flow. She was bullying. She was Ann Flo, whatever. So anyway, so they and their parents moved every month because in those days in Brooklyn, there were landlords who would give you your first month's rent for free just to get you in. And so they were almost nomadic in New York. Wow. But anyway, so he grew up very, very poor, but he ultimately became a huge success and in corporate law.

And so after I announced that they didn't want to go to college, he came to my room to have a little father-son talk. He didn't come to my room very often. And so he gave me a year to become a rock star or else I had to go to college. That's very understanding. I thought that was more than I needed. I was like a whole year. I don't need a year. I'm already playing clubs.

Like, yeah, sure, right. Yeah, okay. And then I thought I was out negotiating arguably the greatest negotiator of the 20th century. But anyway, he went back to tell my mom and my mom vetoed the deal. My mom had never cursed in her life until this point in time. So he had to unnegotiate the deal that he had just negotiated with his own kid. So after my mom told him that if I was going to live in her house, I had to work or go to school, he had to come back and exactly and undo the deal he had just done with his fucked up son. I don't know if I can say that on the air here.

Yeah, sure. So. Humbling experience for a guy who's used to pull one over on corporation, billion dollar corporations. Well, isn't that the case, though, too, right? I mean, no matter who you are, if you're married, you may be the boss at work, but at home, you very well. You're probably not. See, your mom had a different idea of what you were definitely going to do. I can actually hear the married men who listened to your podcast nodding right now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even though, which is odd because they haven't heard it yet because we're just reporting now. But that's, but I can, you know, I'm getting that, like energetic. It's whippling throughout the time space continuum. Yeah, I feel a lot of empathy coming our way. But anyway, so or understanding, whatever it is. Yeah. And they're getting a trainee field merchandiser position at Atlantic Records.

What does that really mean? So basically I showed up on July 31st, hottest day of the year, one of them. They handed me a staple gun, some double-sided tape, and a roll of Led Zeppelin poster, and said, here, kid, go to this list of record stores. In those days, there were record stores. Right. I do remember those. I'm 38, so we had those.

Well, if anyone's in their 50s or late 40s, you'll remember disco mat and corvettes and King Carroll. They had all these stores around New York, Sam Goody. Oh, yeah. And I would go around to these stores and hang up these posters. It wasn't just Led Zeppelin Posers, but I was pretty happy that it was Led Zeppelin Posers. And I just thought this was the greatest job in the world. $4 an hour plus free records, all I wanted.

Free records? Free records. They just layered all around everywhere. You could just take them home. It was fantastic. Oh, okay. So it wasn't really a legit perk. It was just kind of like, hey.

Oh, no, it was as legit. Literally nobody cared. I mean, they were called promos, and they were there for the taking. Like, literally, you did, it was, you know, it wasn't like I had to sneak them out the back. It was fine. You take them home. And so I just was like, this is, this is heaven. I forgot relatively quickly about playing the guitar.

Wait, wait, so you didn't even, you eventually just stopped caring about the performance of music and you went, I'm in the music business, your ambition just made a switch like that? So my dad had told my brother and I something very impactful when we were kids. He said, because people ask me all the time, Jordan, why didn't you become a lawyer and follow your dad's footsteps? Sure. So the answer can be found in this very simple. lesson that he taught us, which I've passed on to my kids, which is he said, do whatever you want to do, try to be the best at it, but just make the world a better place.

If you do that, you'll be a success in my eyes. So I was like, okay, Dad. So I realized around this time that this was around the time the first Van Halen record came out. And I heard that and I was like, fuck it. There's just no point, right? I might as well try to dunk a basketball with my four-inch Jewish vertical leap. Right, yeah. Although David Lee Roth, Jewish.

Yeah, but you can't dunk a basketball either. guarantee you that. But anyways. Not now, especially. Not in those leather jumpsuits. I don't think he was, yeah, in his platform shoes. But anyway, I realized all at once that I was never going to be the best at that, but I might be able to be the best at this. So I decided I was going to put all my eggs in this basket and off I went. And then it was a question of trying to figure out how he's going to get a job in the ANR department, because that's what I really want. A&R? Can you tell us what that is for those of us that don't know? So A&R technically stands for artists and repertoire.

It's sort of an antiquated phrase that goes back to the early days of the music business when it was, you know, you'd have to go and find the songs for artists. Now, most of them write the songs, but it's still a thing. But basically it means it's a very, you know, sort of, it's another word for talent scout. Yeah, like recruiting. You're out there looking for talent. And that sounded to me like the part of the business that I wanted to be in. And I think most people, when they think about the music business, that sounds like the glamour position

because everyone thinks they have good taste in music, right? Maybe, but it also sounds like. going to high school basketball games looking for the next LeBron James. It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's tough. It's tough.

And nobody bats 400. I mean, it's like in any of the, you know, there's a million, billion stories in any of the, whatever you want to call it, creative fields, right, of people who have passed on the biggest books, the biggest movies, you know, the famous Fred Astaire story, right? When he went to the talent scout who said, you can't sing, can't dance can act a little, right? I mean, so, and if anybody remembers Fred Astaire. But, you know, the biggest properties have been passed on by everybody. I don't care is Harry Potter.

Star Wars was dropped, right? I didn't know that about Star Brothers pictures. Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, the Beatles were passed on by most people. So you need a sort of a strong backbone because you get whacked around a lot in this business because you make mistakes a lot. And if you let that get to you, you'll be, you know, in the corner of the bar at 11 in the morning drinking. So how do you know when to stick to your guns and when you're, you go, you know what, everyone hates this? Or do you just always stick to your guns and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't?

Well, funny enough, some of the biggest successes I've had have been ones that everybody either hated or didn't understand. I don't understand a lot of your picks, but I'm not, I don't go, I know a lot about music. I don't know anything about music. But then I listen to somebody like, Lord, whoever everyone loves. And I'm like, I guess I get it, but I don't really get it, you know? I know that she's talented as hell, but I don't feel it. But you feel it. It's funny.

I mean, Lord is an interesting one because, you know, David Geffen, who to me is as iconic as it gets, right? And not only music and entertainment business, I mean, the guy, like everything he touches turns to gold. It's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. And I've had the chance to spend time with him, and it's exciting just being with him because it's like playing tennis with somebody much better than you, right? He just elevates your game. But he described it as instinct. And because there is no, there's no school to go to for A&R.

I mean, you can go to the Clive Davis school at NYU and learn the music business. But you can't learn ANR. You can't learn taste, right? Yeah. Sure. So anyway, Lord, when I first got an email, and I have it framed and autographed by her, I got an email from a woman that I knew named Natalia Romishevsky, who was in the business. She was in the, working at a jingle house.

So she was in the music business, but not in the, like, for commercials and stuff. But she was somebody I knew, you know, just from, as friends. And she would send me music time to time like a lot of people do. Yeah, I bet they do. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And I get an email from her one day, and the subject line was hot shit. And then it just said, unsigned New Zealand female, listen.

I feel like that's a very common subject line in your inbox, though. That was the only time I've heard that exact phrase. Okay. All right. It had a little zip. They got to hear this one. Yeah. It's probably the, yeah.

So, and then she put at the bottom a little disclaimer that said, not sure if this is your type of thing, but, you know, thought you should check it out. Something like that, right? And I listened. And the first song on there was Royals. And I was like, what in the world is going on here? Like, I felt like I, like a, you know, like a building fell on me. I was like, what the, I mean, this is crazy. It's amazing.

Did she have viral appeal, though? Was it like you go to, I don't even know. What? Does she have, like, a SoundCloud page or something? Exactly. You're sounding like a music business guy. Right. It's like osmosis. Maybe I do know more about this. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so she had only about 200 plays on her soundclad at this point. The music had only been...

The whole song? Or the whole page? I think it was the song. I don't even remember. Well, you discovered her when she was like literally a child. She was 15. Yeah. Okay. And she was, I think she was barely 15. In her music, she had only released it, I think, two days earlier. But that's the nature of music these days, right?

in New Zealand. It had gone from New Zealand to somebody heard it there and sent it to a friend in London who sent it to Natalia who sent it to me. This happened within 48 hours of her actually releasing the music and putting it up online. And I heard it and lost my mind. And so tracked her down on Facebook, sent her a message. Next thing I know I'm on the phone with her, her parents, her manager, a guy named Scott McLaughlin, whatever. And then, you know, the rest this history. And a song, you know, it's so interesting because I think of stuff energetically, right? Yeah. And this is something that nobody talks about, I've never seen anybody talk about it, but it dawned on me. I don't know why my, there must be some loose wires in my head. But anyway,

what I find fascinating is that Royals was one of the biggest songs of the decade, right? Gigantic hit. Magic beyond. And she wrote it because she saw a picture of George Brett in a Royals uniform, which is odd in itself. Wait, a baseball uniform? Yeah, which is odd because they don't have baseball in New Zealand, right? Right, yeah. I mean, I don't think they do. But there goes the internet, right?

Whatever. So she saw this picture. She wrote the song. She's since met George eventually, right? Which has got to be, I would have liked to be flying the wall for that meaning. But anyway, so the song comes out becomes a global phenomenon, but most of, but biggest in America, actually. And the next thing, you know, the royals go from being arguably the worst team in baseball

to winning the world series. Like, I mean, I think that year, the year it came out, they went to the World Series, and I think they lost, and the next year they won. So for two years, you could argue they were the best team in baseball. Yeah. Why? Because of the song? I don't know. It's kooky, right? That is a weird coincidence, if nothing else. People I'm sure are Googling now. Wait a minute. Is that true? Maybe somebody's going to send me a note and go, no, that was a year before, the year after.

We'll get a lot of emails. As I recall, that was what happened. And it's still, it's just interesting to me. But 200 plays on a song, this is. The element of, I don't want to just say luck because that sort of demeans everything that she did to get to work. By the time she was on SoundCloud, like you said, she already had a manager and she was extremely talented and probably a really hard worker, especially for a 15-year-old. Well, you know, it's interesting. They say that there's only three things that children can become geniuses at, which are music, math, and chess. I never read that.

Yeah. I read that in Bobby Fisher's obituary. I was fascinated by it. So I'm fascinated by him, too. But anyway, she's a genius. I mean, she was a child prodigy. It's so interesting because when you listen to that album, Pure Heroin, it's just brilliant from start to finish.

And not because I had anything to do with it, but just, I mean, I was very lucky to just bump into it at the right time. There's a lot of luck in my line of work. Yeah, I was going to ask about that. We'll get to that. But it is sheer brilliance. And she wrote those songs when she was, as you said, a child. So I find it interesting because she couldn't possibly have experienced

much, right, in New Zealand as a child? No. No. Unless the songs are about sheep, not a lot going on. They got a lot of sheep in New Zealand. They got a lot of sheep. 15 million, I heard. Yeah, more than people.

Well, four times as many, but whatever. Yeah, a lot of sheep. So, but anyway, but she had read a thousand books, I think, by the time she was 12. So I guess she picked, you know, she's literally a genius. And, you know, soaked it all up. Yeah, that's incredible. It came out as these songs. I'm curious about her parents.

What were they thinking? Were they like these provincial people that are like, yeah, I guess our daughter really likes music and I don't really believe that you're from New York? Like, we're not sending her to you. Don't get any ideas. That's how I would behave if I were her parents. It did come up in the conversation. One of the parents said, you know, we're really, and I could understand them being, you know, it must have been a little weird. Like this guy's calling from New York.

She's still a young teenager, not even a, you know, like a barely, barely a teenager. And one of them at some point, I can't remember if it was there over dinner. in New Zealand was like, well, I still think she should probably go to law school. And I remember saying, I come from a family of lawyers. They're all trying to be musicians. There are enough lawyers. Your daughter's going to win Grammys. And I turn out to be right.

That's an exercise in persuasion because you're kind of saying you have to loan me your kid so I can make them a celebrity. If I were her parent, I would go, try again, buddy. Like, show me why this isn't the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, I think there was some of that going on. And it is an interesting sort of arbitrage or whatever you want to call it, but they must have known that this was her destiny. I'm sure they had a feeling, but, you know, they're hearing those songs too,

and it's obviously different being apparent, but her talent was just so undeniable. And look, you know, the roads of success is usually paved with a lot of, you know, know, landmines. In her case, it happens so quickly. And of course, that can be a danger too. But I think she's handled it very well. I would imagine part of managing, well, you don't necessarily manage talent, but at some level you have to go, all right, make her famous, make money, do the good business, but make sure she doesn't implode and turn into somebody who could have been, could have had a 30, 40 year career and now had a four year career. You know, there's only, you can only control so much. And the creative gene, you know, obviously it drives a lot of people crazy.

I mean, some of the, you know, a disproportionate number of the greatest artistic talents, not just in music, end up, you know, becoming, you know, drug addicts or, or worse, you know, losing their minds. And it's, you know, it's something, you know, we're all very conscious of. And, you know, you develop a personal relationship with the artist and you want that, you know, they're people. They're not products, right? So you never want to see that happen. But, you know, I also recognize that there's only so much you can control. I mean, right now it's fun. I mean, I have a, I have a, you know, I have a young artist called Greta Van Fleet, which is a rock band that I don't know if you've heard them. No. They sound so much like Led Zeppelin that Robert Plant said they are Led Zeppelin. Wow. So, you know, you can't beat that. That's a pretty cool thing to hear. And yeah, they're four kids from Michigan.

They're amazing. Where in Michigan? I grew up in Michigan. Frankenmuth. Oh, that's, yeah, of course. It's like this fake German town where they serve chicken and have the old people wearing later. It's like a tourist trap in Michigan. And they have the biggest Christmas store in the country.

It's right. Yeah. Yeah, the Christmas Village. That's what it's called, right? So anyway, yeah. So this is another really, it's exciting. You know, it's hard to get tired of that feeling of being a part of something that is, you know, music discovery. You know, it really is, and it's like when everyone's had that experience when you're a kid and you get the hot music before your friends do and you get the, you know, it's like the ox cord now is the, is the whatever, the catchphrase, right?

Yeah. You know, when the ox cord is fire and, you know, you're in the car and everybody's like rocking out. It's a great feeling. It's social traction, right? It's social status, whatever. Yeah, status, social capital. So, you know, and I was that kid. You know, I always wanted to have the music first and play it for my friends and get that great feeling that you get from turning people onto something that becomes, you know, part of their life and that improves their life.

And now I get to, it's like that same feeling on steroids, right? Because I actually get, I mean, I get to get paid for it. And also I get to do it on a mass scale. Right. But it's so fun still. And actually, I'm going to have that experience again tomorrow. night because I'm going to see Greta Van Fleet in Nashville. Well, it won't be tomorrow night because we're on the podcast.

But the day after this recording, I'll be in Nashville watching these kids, you know, just take over with a huge crowd. And it's amazing because this little room we're in, which is pretty little, this little recording studio, they literally couldn't have sold this room out if they were playing on the table seven or eight months ago, maybe nine months ago. But it happened that quickly. And when it does, it's really, it's like. I get to like, you know, drive the plane for a little while or right on the rocket ship

or whatever the hell power, you know, whatever analogy you want to use. It's fun. And you feel a little bit of their success, I would imagine, every single time. Of course. It's great. And I love it too because this is the music that I, you know, I grew up loving Led Zeppelin, right? And Aerosmith, I mean, that was my stuff, right? And the fact that they're bringing that back, right?

Because rock and roll has been dead for a while. And now it's like they are bringing it back. And so being, you know, and again, it's luck, right? I mean, I don't think I really know more than other people do. I mean, I'm a lucky person. I'm open to becoming lucky. And, you know, I'm friendly. That was another thing my dad told me was be friendly.

Yeah, I noticed that. I noticed that. And that seems unusual in an industry, which is usually described as cutthroat, brutal, unforgiving, you're friendly and you're nice. So has that been an advantage? Or are you doing that because you believe strongly in that despite the odds? I'm doing it by default. I'm just really bad at being an asshole.

Oh, well, okay. I mean, when I try it. And it's weird because I used to run big companies. And, you know, at various times I ran Atlantic, Virgin, and Capital. And, you know, you're supposed to be able to really, you know, get on people. Drop the hammer. And raise your voice and this and that. And I'm just not that good at it.

I mean, I can when really pushed up against the wall. But, I mean, if it happens once a year, that's a lot. I mean, what is there to get so upset about? And I try to keep that attitude in life, too. You know, if a cab driver goes the wrong way and I'm late, you know, I try to default to, well, maybe the guy's going through some stuff in his personal life or someone cuts me off in traffic or whatever. I mean, I ain't Buddha or anything, but I try to, you know, default to that. But again, it's like I'm not, I'm not good at the other thing. And so, and I found that, you know, I've been able to succeed, whether because of or in spite of or both or whatever. But, yeah,

being friendly is a good thing. I'm very outgoing, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm out there promoting and getting excited about my stuff. And I think that's infectious, you know. A lot of A&R people in the music business are sort of studio rats or whatever you want to call it or dwebes. And they like to just, you know, had a guy who used to work for me named Andy Karp who found a lot of big bands. But he really just like to stay in his own little world, right? He loved the recording studio. He let it be in his office. I'm out there. You know, you know, he's I don't want to be in the recording studio. I want to be out there figuring out the jigsaw puzzle that is the music business and how am I going to break this act? And now I'm doing the same thing with my book. Lulu is a rhinoceros. I'm like, I'm out there. Like, I'll literally stop somebody on the street and say, hey, you want to hear a book?

Yeah. I usually carry it with me. Strangely enough, I forgot it today, but I have it on my phone. So I'm, it's never far away. So I'll, and I'm really looking forward to doing readings. I'm going to be doing readings all over the place. And in this case, I'll be doing it with my daughter who wrote it with me and with my bulldog. So you're going to bring the dog?

Whenever I can, as long as it's not a situation. I mean, the rhinoceros? As long as it's, you know, an environment that's safe for her, that she will be, you know, I mean, I'm not going to put her, her well-being comes first. I'm an animal, you know, lover and, you know, I don't eat meat. And I just, you know, I want to make sure she's, you know, safe and uncomfortable and whatever. You like my wife who before this, I go, oh, here's his Instagram page. And she goes, oh, let me show you this page where this guy makes wheelchairs for handicapped pets. Is it called Eddie's wheels or something like that?

Yep. And we're watching videos of these dogs who can't use their back legs, chase balls because they got like bike wheels now in the back. And I mean... And look, everybody in the studio is smiling just thinking about it, right? It's good. It's good to be good. I mean, it's just good.

And it's like... And again, I mean, it's the converse or the opposite of the bullying thing we talked about earlier, right? I mean, it's just... It makes me feel good. I mean, the work we do, like what you talk about... about the Innocence Project and things like that. That stuff makes me feel good. And it gives me purpose.

And, you know, it's great. The thing we were just talking about, it's an interesting segue, right? Because I love the idea of going to the show and I get to wear the backstage pass. I get to watch the people freak out about something that I knew about early and got to have a part in.

And that's an amazing feeling. But I think, you know, when I'm gone, nobody's going to care who signed Katie Perry or whichever one of you actually want to pick on from my career. Nobody cares. Like, who signed the Beatles? Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. And we all know who the manager was. I don't know who signed them to the record label. And that's because the manager really was the fifth beetle, right, Brian Epstein? But the people whose lives I've been able to impact in terms of helping them get out of prison or helping them get back on their feet after they're out, that's a legacy that, you know, that matters to me. And, you know, it's more important. You've been great at spotting stars, but do you ever go, all right, this person, I don't like their music that much, but they have every other piece in place.

So even though it doesn't match my taste, I still think they're going to be huge. Does that ever happen? It has happened on occasion. I won't ask you who or anything. It seems like a weird question. I mean, you know, listen, I won't mention any names, but collective soul. You know, so, I mean, there was one that, you know, I mean, in that case, there was research that indicated that the record. was really a hit, meaning they had put out the song themselves,

or the action album themselves. And I heard about it because it was being played on a local station in Florida somewhere. I can't remember. And it was selling. Like, people were buying it. And so I went down to see them, and there was a packed club. And I didn't understand it. I'm watching them.

I'm going, why do people? I actually was going up to people and going, do you like this? Like, do you actually like this? And one guy's like, dude, my girlfriend got me this record. I love it, man. What's up? And I'm like, huh? I mean, either they really,

this is the best setup I've ever seen, and I'm being punked, or else my opinion doesn't really matter because these kids are hearing something that I'm not hearing. And sure enough, they had like three triple platinum albums, you know what I mean? Yeah.

That song Shine was huge. I didn't know if I'm listening to was going to be huge. But, you know, I was able to, there's very little science in the music industry. That's the little science that we have. Would that setup kind of thing work if you just said, all right, I need like a thousand kids from my high school to come out and freak out

because this record guy is going to be here. with that kind of thing, does that have a prayer of working? People have tried various permutations of that. Really? And we usually are able to see through it. How do you see that you just know that somebody, you just know? Well, there were, there were, I was thinking about one instance where somebody put out a record and then just had people buying it all over the place, right? And but then it was, we were able to find out somehow.

I can't remember the stores or there was something transparent about it. And now there are different safeguards in place with the digital services to prevent. you know, robots and things like that from sort of impersonating people and turning a song into a hit. Yeah. So it's relatively pure the research, I guess. You know, but people have tried all sorts of created things, creative things to pick their way into a record deal. Sure. Or even buy a, you know, buy a hit record, so to speak. How do you buy a hit record? Well, you just, you know, you just, like I said, you go out and buy enough copies of your own thing to make it look like a hit. But eventually, you know, unless you have an endless amount of money, the next.

week it falls off. Yeah. Right. You could go buy $10,000 one week and then the next week it's like, and then that's pretty obvious, right? Right. You hit the billboard chart. Go from there. So, yeah, so you really have to be crafty. I mean, it's not, it's just. It's easier just to be a good, it's probably easier just to

actually create something really great than to try to fake it at this point. Which is almost impossible too. You know, I was talking to one of my partners, Avery Lipman yesterday and he was saying, you know, hit records are miracles. Like, it's a miracle. When one of these things happens, it's a miracle. Like, there's so many records. What is it?

I forget, is it 30,000 songs a week come out on Spotify? I have no idea. It's a huge number. And here's a little interesting. I'll give a funny little plug here because from what I've been told, 16% of the songs on Spotify have never been listened to by anyone. Ever? Not even once. But, funny enough, I want to meet the guy who did this.

Hopefully he's listening. Or she is. He or she. There's a website called Forgotify.com. And you can go on there and hear songs that no one. ever listened to. That's cool. I know.

And ironically, I think you could, after you listen, they must come off the site because it's no longer true. Or maybe it's just songs that have never been heard on Spotify, the release, but never heard on Spotify. So I don't know. I'm curious about that. If you listen to it, I'll have to go and it's an easy thing to find out, right? I can just listen to whatever song pops up and then go back the next day and see

it's still there. Yeah. But it doesn't even matter. It's just such a funny concept. Never ever been played. Or maybe it's like sub 50 times or sub. No, no, it's never. Never.

Never. Never. Wow. And, you know, I mean, with 30,000 songs coming out a week, you know, it's... Yeah, it's possible. It's not that hard to understand how that could be. Especially a lot of indie bands and stuff like that. Some of them are reissues or some old, like, B-side from some classical, God knows what, or, you know, whatever.

And some of them are dreadful, and some of them are actually like, you're, this is not that bad. You know, somebody should probably promote this. It'd be funny to find a hit on there. Yeah, I mean, that would be ironic. You could, that's what your interns can do this summer. Oh, we'll have records. Hey, guys. Wow.

Get out your headphones. Yeah. Sorry, interns. He just gave your boss a terrible idea. Right. We'll create a little war room and just have people listening to forgotify.com all day

looking for the next big thing. I don't think that's probably a great use of time, but you never know. If someone does more power to them. Yeah. All right. So I've heard you say something

along the lines of most great ideas are rejected on the first go round. So if you've got 30,000 new songs coming out on Spotify every week, you've got to rely on your own idea of what a good track or song is, what a good record might be, what a good artist might be.

How do you know if you're not just rejecting a great idea on the first go-round? How do we even parse that? How do you parse that? Oh, I mean, you know, I just, I don't know how you do that. I mean, if we could, we would, right? If we could find a way to have like a safety net where we don't mess up good ideas, that would be fantastic. But, you know, hopefully, you know, maybe, I mean, I, fuck, I don't know.

Like, how do you do that? I mean, it's like, I think it's just, there's a little bit of destiny. in all of this, right? And when, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable with the idea that I'm going to miss some great opportunities in life. I think, you know, the, the, the dangers in not trying, you know what I mean? Like, that's to me, I have this thing, this phrase, I think I invented called a non-moving violation, which is-non-moving violation? Yeah, I issue myself a non-moving violation. If I see an opportunity and I don't go for it, whatever that opportunity might be, if it's someone, if I'm at a

conference and there's someone I know I should talk to but they're busy and I don't you know whatever it is it could be a romantic thing could be anything right you you see what's that old song if you see your chance take it right I mean it doesn't hurt to ask as long as you're respectful and as long as you you know treat people well and kindly then you know like there's no reason not to I mean and some people are just introspective and they can't they don't have that you know or they have a very limited ability to do that I'm a you know I'm an an extrovert or whatever that word is right Were you always like that?

Yeah, I think so. I've always been someone who was, you know, tried to put myself out there and try to take advantage of whatever opportunities were available to me. And, you know, and not really stay within the lines, you know. I mean, even in my professional career, I didn't follow the rules, you know, when someone would say you're not allowed to call that a radio station or you're not allowed, that's not your job, somebody else's job. You're like, okay, thanks, boss. and I go call the radio station. Because I was like, well, nobody else is doing it. Like, I'm excited about my stuff.

I'm going to go get this played or whatever it is. Or I'm going to call that TV booker. And I think that was one of the keys to my success. I don't think my taste is necessarily better than other people's taste, but I'm too stubborn to accept no for an answer. And there's certain times when you just know it's right and you go for it. But yeah, so I think the exercise is in, you know, being open and getting lucky. And taking the initiative when there's something there that you,

that you see, that you can, and these are not original thoughts, but maybe it's my own way of putting it. And then not kicking yourself too hard when you don't, you know, because if you do, then you're, you know, you're just living in the past. And you know what they say, right? The past is history, the future is a mystery, but the present is a gift. That's why they call it the present, right? So the idea is if you let yourself, you know, drift too much into that, you know, storytelling, right, that movie that we all have in our mind. Sure. then you're going to, you know, you're not going to be able to experience the things that are right in front of you.

And so it's a trap. So when you issue yourself the non-moving violation, you don't beat yourself up too much about it. You just sort of note it so that maybe next time it doesn't take as much. I guess it's sort of a way of, you know, compartmentalizing it or just going, you know, okay, that happened. And, you know, all right, flam, here's your non-moving violation. Now get going on to the next one, right? And, you know, it's interesting, too. There's, you know, synchronicity is the thing that fascinates me.

It's fascinated me since I was a kid. And what I mean by that is extreme coincidence. And this is a little bit of a tangent. But when those things happen and they happen to me a lot, I get the feeling like, okay, everything's good. Extreme coincidence is when, I mean, for instance, I showed up at the studio to record my podcast with a woman named Kristen Labato who had just gotten out of prison after 16.

years in Nevada for a crime. She obviously didn't commit, and they knew she didn't commit it from the beginning. It's just a horrible story, and you can hear it on my podcast. And I actually posted this picture on my Instagram, which is at it's Jason Flom. But we showed up at the studio. There's no parking allowed in front of the studio.

And there was a red Mercedes park there, and the license plate was innocent. Like, why? Wow. Like, we don't know whose it was. It had nothing to do with her or me or anybody else that was there. but what is it doing there? Like it's just like...

It's just like... It's just like... It's just like... ...arended legally, therefore not innocent. Right in front of the studio. I mean, like, she's innocent. We're innocent.

We're talking to the innocent. It's like, I mean, so that's just one... There's literally, like, we could devote a whole season of podcasts to things like that that have happened. And it goes back to when I was a teenager. And so even back then, I decided I had to assign a meaning to it what had happened. So I decided these are metaphysical signposts from the universe where it's good. The universe is just going flam. You're in the right place at the right time.

Don't worry about the shit that happened before because this wouldn't be possible. Like this is statistically not even in the realm of it's not a hundred to one, a thousand, a one. It's like zillions to one. And that may not be the best example, but that's a pretty good example. And we will throw you, you know, just keep doing what you're doing, keep moving forward. It'll throw you another bone pretty soon. Like just stay tuned, stay open, right?

I look at license plates. I look at, you know, that's the thing. Like, I'm very open to these numbers and names and things and I see different patterns and stuff and like, I mean, I don't want you to think I'm like that guy. What was that movie? Yeah, a beautiful mind. Yeah, that one or the one. What was the one with the other one where he was,

Beautiful Mind was one? But there was another one. Was it Mel Gibson or somebody where he was in the house? Conspiracy theory with Mel Gibson where he's got 17 copies of Catcher in the Rye. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like that. That's an old movie. If I get there, hopefully you'll come and, you know, call somebody and tell him, hey, you know, you go get this guy because he needs a little, you know,

he needs a little deprogramming. They won't be able to get you. Remember, he had the, escape tunnel in his apartment if you pull out the catcher in the rye because he knew they were coming for him. But in general, and I had a very extreme one of these recently where I've had a couple recently that have had such a positive impact on my life that it allows me when my mind goes to that story, right?

Because we all have that story we tell ourselves, which is like fear, well, regret and anticipation, right? I mean, we go through that movie in our mind where it's like, oh, I should have bought this particular stock or I should have, you know, proposed to this girl or I should have there's this story that we tell ourselves, right? And if only I would have done that, then my life would be this. And it's crippling to some people, right? And it's no fun for anybody. And then there's anticipation. Oh, you always think, oh, if I do this, then, you know, so for me, particularly with the, you know, the regret or that movie, that part of the movie,

right, the past part, so to speak. These things allow me to have a place to go in my mind where I go, you know what, it's okay. Like that stuff I thought were mistakes, it's okay. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life. I've passed on huge act. I've missed opportunities with stocks or things or a painting I could have bought or whatever this comes skyrocketed, all these things.

And I sit there, of course, and there are moments when you go, damn, if I'd done that, I would have, you know, ten times more money than I do now. And I'd be able to do all these. And then I go, no, but you know what? I was supposed to be on this street corner at this particular time for this thing to happen. That's how it's, that's, so everything's okay. Like that stuff doesn't matter. That wasn't my destiny.

And of course, you can also default to the thing of saying, well, and this is a little more of a stretch, but you could say, well, if I would have done this, that, the other thing is a butterfly effect. I might have gotten hit by a bus, but I can't prove that. What I can prove is that these experiences, when they happen to me, and like I said, There's one that's more recent that just really crystallized everything for me, where I just say, you know what, it's okay because this is, this is my destiny. I'm supposed to be here in this place right now doing this particular thing. So that other shit doesn't matter, you know, if I was a, you know, if I was a billionaire or whatever or if I would have started some company, it doesn't matter. It's okay.

Yeah. You have to give yourself that sort of leeway or that forgiveness. It seems tricky to do, though, in real time. Do you do it in real time or do it later? Well, I guess, I don't know, maybe both. And of course, you know, I mean, I'm not a meditation master. I mean, I'm like, you know, I have my moments, you know, down moments like anybody else.

But, you know, that particular thing, maybe somebody else has experienced or maybe somebody else will experience it, in which case that's great, because then if I can, you know, help somebody else feel the same thing and feel better about, you know, past experiences that maybe haunt them, then, you know, then great, you know, I mean, that's,

uh, that's, that's, that's my experience. And, um, it does really, it makes me realize I don't need to have the biggest house. So I don't need to have, um, all these things that I thought I might have needed to have. And that, and then that prevents that whole if then therefore, but maybe, you know, that, that, that's just, that's just wasted time. I mean, one thing I figured out, and this is a good example, because I really enjoy talking to you, is, you know, the meaning of life can be found in being present, right? And when you're present, then, you know, you're living, right? I mean, you can't, no one can do it all the time. There are various ways that people get to it, right? Some people use extreme danger, right? That always will get you present, right? But you can only spend so

much of your time swimming with sharks or jumping out of airport. That's not my style. Yeah, for sure. Right. So, right, so that's, you could only do so much of that, and I've done some of that. And that's, okay, that doesn't work. Some people, you know, they have negative ways of getting their drugs, gambling, you know, for some people, it's sex, for some people's meditation or, you know, even walking in the woods or whatever it is. But what I do know is that the more time you can spend in that state and doing what you love and being, that's the best part of your life. And what's not great is doing something when thinking about something else. By the way, I do that too. Like, I'll be on a boring conference call. I'm emailing like, you know what I mean? And then you're like, huh? What? And, you know, it's like, it's like, Remember when everybody went all the Internet, when all the Internet stocks were all going crazy? And you knew you were talking to your doctor and like, Doc, my leg's falling off. And he's like, who, yeah, who's up 47? Yeah. Oh, sorry. Wait, what?

You know what I mean? Like, you knew. Like, everybody was just watching the stock ticker every day. And you're like, oh, Qualcomm. You're like, wait, Doc, wait, I told you my leg fell off. He's like, what? Oh, sorry. I got to call you back.

I got to call my broker. Like, you're like, Jesus Christ. It was so weird. So, yeah, the thing is when you can spend time doing the things. And for me, that's, you know, when I do my podcast, I get in that, I get in that zone. When I get in the presence of these people, you know, and my podcast is, of course, wrongful conviction. And when I'm sitting in the presence of people who have endured decades in prison for crimes they did not commit, some of them were even sentenced to death. And I think that's a lot of our worst fears, right?

Of course. A lot of people, the worst fear is being locked in prison, especially in the prisons in America, which are some of the worst in the world. Yeah. For a crime, you didn't. commit and then I'm able to sit there and just soak up the, the spirit and the, you know, the resilience and the grace that these people exude. I'm like, you know, I can't think about anything else. I'm like, I'm not worried about all that other stuff. What strikes me in wrongful conviction is the level of forgiveness that a lot of these people have for everything that's

happen to them. It's shocking. It's remarkable. It never ceases to amaze me. So many of them have become my friends. Some of them have become family to me. And it is just breathtaking. They all have different ways of saying a very similar thing, you know, which is how they got to that place. And it has very little to do with religion. You know, I mean, for most of them, It's some sort of like spiritual awakening that they had where they were able to let go of all this bitterness and anger, which was rightfully theirs to have. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But they'll say these most amazing things.

You know, like in the podcast at the end, I typically just turn, I shut up and turn the mic over to them and just let whoever it is that's on the show say whatever that is that they want to say. And you'll hear pearls of wisdom. I mean, some of the things Amanda Knox when she was. on that her closing speech was like, you know, you could just put that on repeat and go on and live your life, you know, like, or Everton Wagstaff or so many of them, the things, Keith Allen Harward, who was in prison for 33 years for a crime he had nothing to do with. And, you know, he'll say it's amazing because I remember very vividly. I said to him, Keith, you know, how do you do it, man?

And this was a conversation that happened not too long after he got out of prison. I was like, how do you, how do you, like, what is it? How do you, what did you, what you, how did you maintain hope and sanity that, you know, he was actually in for 34 years because it was a year in jail waiting his trial and 33 years in prison. And he says, and he's from North Carolina and I'm going to mangle his accent. So apologies to the North Carolinians out there. But he says to me, listen, man, he goes, you know, when I went to prison, he says,

you know, I was innocent. So, so that helped. I was like, that helped. Yeah, that wouldn't help me. That would have made me crazy. What are you talking about? He goes, well, listen, Jason, man. He says, I got to tell you something.

He says, you know, when I first went in there, I said to myself, you know what? They took my body and they took my freedom. I'm not going to let them take my mind. Because if I do that, I'm letting them win. And I was like, Jesus Christ, I feel like I'm talking to Nelson Mandela right now. Like, who are you, dude? Like, who are you? He was just a guy in the Navy, right?

just a regular guy, you know, never been in trouble before, just a regular guy who got wrongfully, you know, he was framed because it was a high profile crime and a small community. And that's something people need to be aware of. I mean, I hope that people who are listening, everyone who's listening to this show right now, someday may end up on a jury, right? We all get those annoying jury duty notices, right? And you're like, oh, God, and I'm so busy. But you got to go.

Like, go. Go serve on a jury. And when you're there, be woke. like listen to the show wrongful conviction and you will hear so many incredible stories, but they're tragically common of people who are never supposed to lie, lying through their teeth, police, prosecutors, there's even judges who've been, you know, caught up in this, you know, like the people that we grow up thinking, well, they're on the side of justice and I'm going to be okay. And if you get picked up, by the way, if you get picked up for something you didn't do,

here's a very important piece of advice. You and tell your loved ones. If you get picked up and you're innocent, they are not your friends. Don't talk to them, right? They're going to bring you up, Jordan. Well, you think you might have witnessed a crime. We just want to talk to you for a minute. You know, you don't need to be read.

We can read your rights. You don't need a lawyer. No, no, I'm good. I'm going to just, I'll go home after a few questions, right? I'm a good citizen. I didn't do anything. Next thing, you'll be in that room for as long as they want to keep you there. And they can lie to you.

They can do basically whatever they want and get away with it. And so, you know, your only thing you want to say is, my name is Jordan Harbinger, here's my address, and I want a lawyer. That's it. Now, they're supposed to stop talking. After you say, I want a lawyer, the law says they have to stop talking to you and they have to wait until your lawyer gets there. That's what you want to say.

And then stop talking because anything you say can be used against you. We all heard that phrase, and it will. And so, yeah. And by the way, I want to put in a quick word about, you know, I'm going to be taking the podcast to the stage. June 27th, at the King's Theater in Brooklyn, I'm going to be doing the first wrongful conviction live event. And it's going to be called Wrongful Conviction Presents Women in Prison and American Tragedy. Because I want to highlight the fact that in America, we have 4.4% of the world's population, but we have 25% of the world's prison population.

A lot of people know those statistics. Yeah, that's crazy. I did the math. By the way, North Korea has a similar prison population percentage-wise. That is not a good comparison. And they're probably the only ones. But the, you know, even when you get deeper into the statistics, what's even crazier is that we have 33% of the world's female prison population. What are we doing? Like, that is insane. So, and that's something that really is below the radar. And I want to bring that up. We have to stop treating women like second-class citizens and persecuting them in the criminal justice system. The repercussions of this are extreme. So, So this event is going to be myself and Amanda Knox, who is like family to me.

Nora Jackson, again, part of my family, Michelle Murphy, Nora Jackson was in prison for 11 years for murdering her mother, which she was abundantly innocent of. And they knew it from day one. I mean, she was on the cover of the New York Times magazine. And you probably saw it the story where she was convicted of murdering her mother. Prosecutors withheld the evidence that would have freed her. They withheld exculpatory evidence. Oh, yeah. And more.

And more. I mean, unethical doesn't quite get to the level of, is it illegal. It's evil. It's evil is what it is. What they did to this poor girl, and there's a lot more of the story which people will hear. If you tune into the podcast with Nora, you'll hear it. There's even a story coming out in Cosmo in the September issue about her and me and our, you know, our relationship, which is a paternal one. She's remarkable. She was in prison for 11 years.

Tennessee Supreme Court overturned her conviction five. nothing. Then there's Michelle Murphy, who again is like, I call her my niece. Michelle was in prison for 20 years for a crime that she so obviously didn't commit that when her conviction was overturned, it was the murder of her baby, her 15-league old baby, who was, she woke up one morning with a splitting headache and her baby was gone, and she found him basically decapitated in the kitchen. Oh, my God. And the prosecutors, they knew all along she didn't do it. They knew who did do it, too. And it's just when you hear the story of how this happened, it will make you really wonder how, like, just how could this be? She's such a lovely woman.

She was sentenced to life in prison, served 20 years to the day, ironically. And when she was, when she was freed, when she was fully exonerated, and the higher court overturned her conviction with prejudice, which means like, fuck you. Like, they're basically saying to low court, fuck you, don't come back to this. You're not allowed to come back to this, right? You can never revisit this. Nope, because and when her conviction was overturned, the judge said, and you can look this up, through tears, he said that in his four decades on the bench, it was the worst miscarriage of justice he'd ever seen. So Michelle's going to be there. She's a Native American woman.

She's just a beautiful, strong, powerful woman who has been through an unimaginable series of events. And then Sabrina Butler will be there as well, who's an African-American woman who has sentenced death, again, for the murder of her. her child, which turned out to be, but she just didn't do it. I mean, you know, she was exonerated after five years in prison. So, so we are going to give this presentation that is going to really, I think, open a lot of people's eyes. It's going to be a powerful and amazing night that I'm very privileged to be a part of. And I don't think anybody will leave there not being moved when you are able to hear,

not because of me, I'm more or less the narrator, right? Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm going to drop some, I'll drop some knowledge, right? And obviously, I'm, you know, I'm an expert on criminal justice reform. And I'll offer some practical steps and, you know, solutions, I hope. But the stories that you'll hear from the people themselves will be an experience that I don't think anyone that's there will ever forget. What have you personally learned from these types of stories, forgiveness or otherwise?

Because it's just, it's really hard to be upset that your iPad crashed when you hear an episode of wrongful conviction. You know, it's really hard to go, I'm an hour late for this thing that can totally get rescheduled. You're absolutely right. And it's one of the things that drives me to want to continue doing this work because it puts gratitude in my attitude. And it makes me better able to deal with life's little disappointments. you know, because we all have them every day. I don't care, rich, poor, you know, what your ethnicity is, you know, everybody has them. And, you know, we know that there's a higher percentage of, or at least the social scientists tell us,

or the psychologists tell us that there's a higher percentage of wealthy, successful people who are depressed than people who are on the other end of the spectrum. So we all have those. I feel like my life is better because people, People like Michelle, Nora, Amanda, Sabrina, people like that are in it. You know, it's like you hit it exactly on the head. I mean, what difference does it make whether or not, you know, you lost the game or, you know, whatever the hell that is. Even big stuff, though, like you could be getting sued and you go, I didn't go to prison for 20 years for something I didn't.

Because when you come out, people forget, when you come out, your parents are probably, they might be dead. And your kids, if you had any, if you didn't have any, it's too late probably for you to have some. And if you did have some, they grew up without you. Or they grew up thinking you were a murderer and you can't repair that relationship. They're adults. Yeah, that's something, I'm glad you brought that up. I've been very focused, even obsessed with what I call the second punishment for many years because it's exactly as you said, right?

When people are released from prison, they face these. unbelievable obstacles, right? And, you know, forget like Keith, who was in for 34 years, but I mean, if you're in for 10 or 15, like just getting re-socialized or even getting to caught up on technology or any of that, right? And our prisons, you know, at some point, everything went haywire and we went from a system. It's supposed to be called correctional institutions, but in fact, they're just punishment institutions, right? So we, you know, we, we treat And let's not forget, these are just Americans, right? They're just people who were just all, one day they were going along.

And maybe they did something wrong. I mean, I think with Brian Stevenson, one of my heroes says, you know, I think, I believe that everyone's better than the worst thing they've ever done. Now, there are some people that belong in prison. I'm not an anarchist. I'm not. And by the way, and there's a lot of good cops. And there's a lot of good prosecutors and judges.

And I'm a person who believes in a system of laws. And I believe we need to have these things, right? But we also need to have checks and balances so that those powers don't get to used. And we also need to have a system that gives people a chance to get back on their feet. It's good for everybody. Forget just the fact that, you know, the humanitarian side, right, and the ethical and, you know, all the things that people are people and they deserve to be treated as people. If they did something wrong and you would send them to prison and society says you need to go to prison, okay. But while there, there's no reason to subject them to inhumane,

to rape, to abuse, to violence, to isolation. I mean, this, the use of solitary confinement. It's like, what are we doing? Why? Like, stop. It's just not okay. And I've been involved in bail reform, this other stuff, too. So when they come out, we need to have a system in place. Ironically, and I doubt if many people

listening are aware of this, because it doesn't get talked about as much. But if you're guilty of a crime and you're convicted and you go to prison and you come out, there's some support when you get out. You have a parole officer, you have different support services or certain things you can access. If you're innocent, you get nothing.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you don't have anything. Yeah, it's not like you get a parole officer. You're like, sorry about that, Jordan. Sorry about those last 20 years there, babe. You know what I mean? Like we need to have a safety net. We need to, you know, even in the cases where they're able to get compensation, it takes years.

And so you come out to what? You know what I mean? Like a world that's moved on that you don't recognize that you have your PTSD or whatever else. you might have from being inside for all those years. And as you said, your family may have either moved on or died or forgotten about you or doesn't care. Or who knows? You know, made problems of their own. Yeah.

So, so anyway, so I've been, I have been, and I remain very focused on trying to help as much as I can. I think by telling the stories on my podcast, wrongful conviction, I think that's, you know, hopefully helping to change the narrative. let people understand employers who I talked to. You know, I recently gave a presentation with Nora Jackson at Bloomberg to what they call the C-List, which is all CEOs, CMOs and C-FOs. And one of the things I said was like, let's open our minds and our hearts and also our HR departments to the idea that just because somebody was formally incarcerated doesn't mean they're unemployable, right? Like they are employable. And many of them will work harder than the people that you have working for you now because they're so grateful to have a chance.

Lorenzo Johnson, who was on my podcast, served 22 years in prison for a crime who didn't commit in Pennsylvania. He's now working at a division of America Express travel. And he's like I spoke to them recently. He's killed it over there. You know what I mean? Oh, that's a bad pun. Yeah. He was wrongfully convicted of a murder.

Did I just say that, Jason? I can't get that. Help us out. Anyway, um, doing a great job. Yeah, I leave that in. Anyway, um, yeah. So, so, but no, the, the fact is there's a lot of human potential and it's being wasted. They need to be given back the right to vote.

They need to be given, you know, a second chance. And by the way, even if you're somebody who doesn't believe what I'm saying is necessarily true right now, even if you're just looking at it from a selfish perspective, you want to say, well, if we give these people the tools to get back on their feet, there's a, and this is proven, right? There's a significant decrease in the amount of crime that they're going to commit. Of course. Of course. People who can't survive have to figure out a way to do it. And if they can't get a legitimate job, they're going to get a not legitimate Well, they have to survive.

And that's the basic thing. And so, you know, and we know, like, keeping people out of the system in the first place is the best way to prevent future crimes from happening. Even when, you know, and bail reform is a whole nother topic for another show. But, you know, the idea that we keep people in jail in America for weeks, months, even years because they can't post bail. So we have two separate systems, right? We have a system if you're rich and a system if you're poor.

I wanted to go down that road for a second because I think a lot of people go, yeah, this is interesting. But look, man, I grew up middle class. I'm not going to get wrongfully convicted because this happens to people from the hood who are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I live in a nice area. It's not going to happen to me.

Yeah, well, listen to wrongful conviction. I mean, I can point you to certain episodes where you'll say, oops, I guess that perception was wrong. Michael Morton, right, who's been on 60 Minutes, three times, I think, supermarket manager. As he says, he was the most normal guy, living the most normal life in Austin, Texas, framed for the murder of his wife.

Doug Delosa, also framed for the murder of his wife, A guy who was a few credits shy of his MBA was doing international work for a major corporation flying all over the place. Framed because they couldn't figure out who did it and they wanted to get it off their desk. And in his case, when the cops were arresting him, it was just three months after the crime happened. And he said to the arresting officers, why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to my family? And the cops said, fuck you. Fuck your kids and fuck your dead.

I didn't tell. He said, I didn't tell that bitch to get murdered in my town. Like, literally, like, out of a movie. That's evil. And the guy says, and by the way, I know you're probably innocent, but my kids got to eat too. The cop said that. Yeah, as they were arrested him. I've never heard that one before. But yeah, and Doug was sent a life in prison in Angola, in Angola, which is one of the worst prisons in the world. And he barely survived. I mean, he nearly lost his life there. And ultimately he was the higher court, the Fifth Circuit Court, I think, overturned his conviction after he had served 14 years in prison. And interestingly, right there, he was the most compensation he was able to get. The total amount of compensation he was able to get was $250,000. And he had spent $378,000 on lawyers.

Oh, my God. Right? So if you think it can't happen to you, it can happen to you. So what does that mean? It means you need to serve on juries, right? And you need to be aware, you know, everyone saw making a murderer, right? I mean, the shit is corrupt, right? A lot of the, there aren't, not everybody's bad in the system.

Like I said, I have a lot of respect for people doing the hard work. And it's not a glamorous job, you know, being in the criminal justice system. You know, there are a lot of good people throughout. There's good corrections officers. There's good people in the court system. There's good prosecutors. There's good cops. Lots of good cops.

But the ones who are bad can do so much damage to so many people. And if you don't think you're one of them or one of your loved ones can be one of them, you're wrong. And it can happen to you. There's so many military guys that are on my show. Kirk Bloodsworth, who was a U.S. Marine, never been in trouble, sentenced to death. You know, Keith Allen Harward, Navy, used to active duty in the Navy. This is going on all over the place. And it's happening not just in the communities that you don't think about or that may not, may not touch your heart or you may not feel personal with you.

It's happening all over the place. And if we don't do something about it, it's going to continue to happen. And so you need to vote, you need to vote in district attorney's races. You need to get out there. You need to make your voice heard. You need to serve on juries. And you need to be aware that this can happen to you can happen to someone you love. Jason, thank you very much, man.

Normally I'd love to end in a high note, but I don't know if that's necessary in this case. I think it's important for people to go, wait, this is kind of scary. This is an epidemic thing that's happening in the country because I don't want to cheapen it by going, tell us something that we can smile about at the end of this. Because I think the idea here is that we can change this. We don't have to accept it as it is. Yeah, I think that's right. And the fact is the good news is that there's more awareness than ever. You giving me a platform to talk about this stuff is just another step in the right direction.

There's so much, the media now is playing a role, I think, with some of these shows. Like I said, making a murderer and serial and other ones where, you know, people are becoming, you know, much more aware. The live event's going to be June 27th at the King's Theater in Brooklyn. I think doors are 8 o'clock, but you'll find it online. King's Theater, wrongful conviction presents women in prison in American tragedy. Please come, I promise you, it will be an experience you will not forget anytime soon. Bring someone who needs to know.

If you want to learn more about this stuff, my Instagram is at, it's Jason Flam. That's ITS, J-A-S-O-N-F-L-O-M. And the book, Lulu is a rhinoceros. I'm very excited about the book, as you can tell. So hopefully we'll get some pick up. on that. And this will all be linked up in the show notes, as usual. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Great big thank you to Jason Flom. His podcast is called Wrongful Conviction. It is really an

interesting insight into something I never really thought about. And if you enjoyed this one, don't forget to thank Jason on Twitter. That'll be linked up in the show notes for this episode, which can be found at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. Tweet me your number one takeaway here from Jason. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, If you want to learn how to apply everything you learned here from Jason today, make sure you go grab the worksheets. Also in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. We do, by the way, have an Alexa skill.

If you've got an Amazon Echo, it'll be a part of your daily briefing. You can go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash Alexa, and it will put little clips of the show, refreshers and things you might not have heard or a preview of an episode you haven't heard yet. Jordan Harbinger.com slash Alexa is how you get that. This episode was produced and edited by Jason DeFerfxie. Philipo. Show notes by Robert Fogarty. Booking, Back Office, and Last Minute Miracles by Jen Harbinger. And I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Leave us a nice review in iTunes. We can always use

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