The Jordan Harbinger Show - 587: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano | Mafia Underboss Part One

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

Sammy "The Bull" Gravano (@gravanothebull) is the host of the Our Thing podcast, former second-in-command of the Gambino organized-crime family who played a major role in prosecuting "Teflon Don" John Gotti, and subject of Peter Maas' Underboss: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano's Story of Life in the Mafia. [This is part one of a two-part episode. Be on the lookout for the conclusion later this week!] What We Discuss with Sammy "The Bull" Gravano: How does someone growing up in a relatively "normal" family get involved in a life of crime? What compels someone entrenched in the comforts of the gangster lifestyle to reject it? How has the code by which the mafia lives changed over time? What kinds of people do you meet when you spend half a decade behind bars? How true does on-screen gangster life ring to reality? And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/587 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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How come they never rat it on you? They're afraid of you. I said, no. Listen, why would they rat on me? Everybody around me made money. What is he going to come and tell you? I'm so mad at Sammy. I made 200,000 more than I would have normally made.

I get tickets when I'm going on vacation or my wife. There is nobody rat. There's an army of people want to be around me, and that's business. When you're good with people, nothing's going to go wrong for you. It's when you're a piece of shit, going there, threatening people, give me the job, I'll kill you, and you're going to get trouble. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most

fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, spies and psychologists, astronauts, entrepreneurs, even the occasional former cult member, enforcer or extreme athlete. And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show, check out our starter packs. These are collections of favorite episodes organized by topic.

To help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show, just visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash start to get started or to help somebody else get started. Today on the show, Sammy the Bull Gravano. He was the former underboss of the Gambino crime family under John Gotti. Now, as many of you know, the old school Italian mafia was from Sicily in the 12th century. They later fled Mussolini and fascism because they were getting picked off. That was actually something that made Mussolini kind of popular back in the day. Sammy the Bull from the New York Italian mafia that resulted from that migration.

He later flipped on John Gotti after, of course, he was thrown under the bus, depending on who you ask. And as a result of his testimony, 30 convictions of other mobsters followed suit. having a big hand in helping take down the mafia in New York and in the East Coast in general. Now, today, I have a bit of a different conversation with Sammy. I've known him for a while now. You're going to hear me tease him a few times and push the boundaries of the conversation in ways that you might not normally do with somebody who has killed 19 people that we know of. I also skip some of the basics, such as how and why he flipped on John Gotti.

That's stuff that's been covered repeatedly all over the place. It's easily available online for those that are interested. I didn't want to rehash that old ground, especially in the interest of time. Sammy is very upfront about his past. He doesn't pretend to be a good guy. This episode deals with murder, gangs, violence, and the fallout of a life lived in organized crime.

I found this one fascinating. I know you will as well, even if you're not normally into these sorts of subjects. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these characters on the show, it's because of my network, and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course, and most of the guests that you hear on the show,

subscribe and contribute to the course. I won't lie, Sammy the Bull, Gravano. Former Mafia Hitman is not in my networking course, but many of the other guests are. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. Now, here's Sammy the Bull. All right, so tell me about growing up. I know you had pretty normal parents.

I have very normal parents. Legitimate people. My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter. Back then, they had lead in the paint. He couldn't paint anymore. He got lead poisoning. And he started working with my mother.

they opened up a small dress factory in Brooklyn, New York. They got some contracts from Jewish contractors in Manhattan. They loved the way my mother was able to put things together. And it seemed like every Italian woman was a seamstress. They knew 100 of them in our family and outside our family. And it was good. I know you used to help your mom or your family at the dress factory. It's humanizing to think of this mafia underboss that has killed multiple people

and done some crazy shit, working in a factory, helping his mom sort of sew dresses together? Well, I'm not sewing dresses. I'm not doing anything like that. What I would do is help clean up all these threads on the floor. It's not like the floors of today. It was just a wooden floor, and it was a pain of the ass trying to clean up. I did that.

There was heavy bundles that came in, so I would take those bundles and put them on the deck so my father could distribute. Each bundle had different pieces to the garment, and you'd have to put them. So I would do that. I would help them with the payroll. I would help them with different things.

When they were shipping, I would put plastic over the dresses and stuff like that and get them ready for shipping. And certain days I came in, certain days I didn't come in. I didn't work there as a job full time. I just went there to help from time to time.

I think my point was less used sewing and more. A lot of people have this image in their head that, okay, he was in the mob, so he must have had bad parents, been a bad kid, You know, you watched The Godfather, and they were like eight years old throwing rocks at the store that didn't pay the extortion money. You remember this from the movie? Not really.

Could be getting confused myself. The kids were kind of hired by this mafia guy to break the windows and wreck this guy's fruit store, this grocery store, because he wouldn't pay him. And I think a lot of people assume that if you grow up and you end up a mobster, that you had something seriously wrong in your childhood, especially with your family. No, I didn't have anything wrong with my family. Like I said, they were good, hardworking people, very, very legitimate people. So I never had that. What you're talking about is a movie. Movies are all bullshit anyway.

So they hype things up for the movie, which are not really true. Now, I was deluxeic. I had trouble in school. I got kicked out of school. I joined the gang, the rampers. So that was where I learned the streets, stuff like that. But not from my family. I had two sisters.

years before I was born, I had a brother who passed away, and one of the sisters was a twin. She died too. Back then, you died from pneumonia. The medicine wasn't like today. So two of them died before I was born, and I had two sisters who were like two mothers around me. One was nine years older to me,

and one was five years older to me. I came a little later in life, and they would take care of me like they were mothers. So I didn't have any kind of fucked-up background, family-wise. One of the reasons I got kicked out of school was that people of principal once said what you're saying about the movies and about their parents

that I broke his fucking jaw so let's be careful with the questions Yeah, right Yeah, well, I'm definitely not going to be that careful But I am far enough away from you That I think I can get away I don't know You are pretty fast though still

I saw you at dinner last night You're still pretty fast So that is something for me to think about I know you punched the principal He said look at all, what do you say, these grease balls, look at how these people are? He said the grease balls, again, that's what we use. We use those terms to Zips, grease balls, and our terminology towards them, grease balls or zips, they're people who are born and raised in Italy, and they come over.

We are Italians, we're the same thing, but we were born and raised here. We're more Americanized, but it's not an insult to us. I mean, it is in a way, but it really is not a way that we would really argue or fight about it. When he said those things, I didn't really care until he started referring to my family in a negative way. This is that these wreath balls, this is how they raise their kids. When I heard shit like that, now you were putting down, not me as a person, but my mother and my father. And I stepped up, I got up, I was already arrested over there for truancy. A truant officer caught us and we went in. That wasn't really like arrested by the cops, but Trunovster brought us in because he caught us playing hooky.

I was a little drunk, and I was sitting there, and when I got up. How old were you at this point? Oh, I'm a kid. Listen, my mother and father had to get me out of, sign me out of schools. Before I was 16, I was thrown out. Because you were drinking, though, even still, because you said you were a little drunk. So you're like 15, 14 years old? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I told him, I said, listen, it has nothing to do with my mother and father. You're referring to my family. It has nothing to do with them. big kid, you caught me, stay with me. He turned away from me like I was nothing and told somebody see, these grease bowls, and that's when I popped them. And I broke his jaw in a couple of places and I was thrown out of that school. It was shallow, junior high, and I was thrown into what they call a 600 school. This is a school for all fuckups. So at that point, I was a fuck-up and I got thrown

out. I first went to McKinley, junior high. I was thrown from shallow to McKinley, from McKinley to the 600 school, and from there, the Board of Education called my mother and father in. I was about 15 and a half. They said, he's not old enough for you to sign them out. It's on a 16th birthday. Come here and sign them out, and if you don't, we'll put them in reform school. So I stopped going to school when I was 15 and a half. It seems like your parents must have been pretty upset because they were earning an honest living. That must have been like, what's your problem, right? They were upset. My father never raised his hands to me. My mother would hit me with a broom or a mop or some fucking thing. I mean, that's how women are. But they were more broken-hearted. I saw that.

You know, of course, every parent wants to see the best for their kid. I obviously wasn't the best. I was dyslexic as well. I was very, very hard to see numbers and letters look different. So reading and learning was really, really hard. They didn't know what it was back then. So you were just stupid to them. So I had trouble long for school. I think my biggest problem, It wasn't parents. It wasn't even the neighborhood. It was that being the disfixion. Later on, I hooked up in a gang,

and that's another part of the problem of different mentality altogether. Stealing robins, stealing cars, hanging out, didn't want to go to school no more. Was the gang all Italian kids? Did different gangs, were they ethnically based, or was it just... I think most of them were Italian. I think we had one or two Irish guys who used to hang out with us.

We even had a Puerto Rican guy who stood with us. This guy, Jimmy, who was a Puerto Rican, but we didn't have any black guys with us. But the neighborhood was predominantly Italian, growing up, and Jewish. A little bit of Irish, not much, and very little blacks. So even the schools were more segregated back then. This guy, his name was, I think, I think his name was Sam Witt. This guy used to catch a beating every day. I stepped to the plate one time, and I said, Sam, why do you keep coming back here, bro?

You're in fights every day. You're not winning any of the fights. He was a tough guy, but he kept getting jumped. So one day I came out with him, and the guys asked me, you know, what are you doing, Sam? I said, nothing. I'm walking with him. I said, I don't think what you're doing now is fair. You're hitting him with two three guys.

Somebody want to step to the plate with him, God. But if he was jumping, I'm jumping in on his side. And he never got jumped again. We wanted up friends until I got kicked out. He was a good guy, but we didn't have. have any racial stuff or anything like that, there really wasn't that many black people in our neighborhood. Do you think that if back in your day the schools had known how to treat learning disabilities and they didn't just think, oh, he's dumb and misbehaved, do you think that you could

have turned out differently, like become a different sort of productive member of society? Without a doubt. There's no question in my mind. I've been in business all my life. I'm not educated. I've been very successful with business and everything I've done. So I think I could have and I did come from good parents. I didn't kill anybody until I was with the mafia. So I never did that. I thought of it once when union people came into, and I was already in a gang.

Yeah, tell me about this. Union people came into my mother and father's shop. I was in the back putting plastic over the dresses and getting it ready for shipping the next morning and these two big Irish guys came in with the union and they were like threatening my father and telling them, you know, non-union, you've got to pay. and they were shaking them down

or trying to shake them down. I was tempted to come out but my father didn't look like it when he was bothered by it at all. So I didn't do nothing or say nothing. But they had told them when they left when we come here tomorrow you better have an envelope

or we'll break your fucking legs and we'll shut you down. Now that night I went back to the rampers this guy Jerry Papen was the leader of the rampers and I told him what happened. This is the gang, yeah, the gang. Yeah, and I wanted to get a couple of guys that come in.

These were pretty big guys, and that we would go to work on them if they came in and did anything. And Jerry Papel lifted up his shirt and says, Hey, hey, take this. And he had a gun. He said, if they hit your far, shoot these motherfuckers.

Give me a call and we'll get rid of the bodies. What did you do with bodies back then, just throwing them in the river? Back then, we just tried them in the street if we would have did it. But as long as they're not in the factory. But anyway, we were kids. We were stupid.

So we'd do stupid things at that point. these kids. So anyway, I went back. I never killed anybody. I was thinking about it and thinking about it. And I was in the same place when they came back the next day. And I was thinking, sweating, nervous. And I said, fuck it. He raises his hands. As soon as they raise their hands, I'm going to come out blazing. They didn't raise their hands. They came in with a card, giving him a card. Jerry, why didn't you tell us your gumabata, his servido? I knew this guy is Suvido was my father's front. Skinny little old man. And it seemed like they were petrified that my father knew him or his was his Gumbada.

Gumbara just means what? They're born and raised in the same area in Sicily. But he, I found out later, was a main guy from Sicily. And I think he got made in the United States as well, because there's two different. Made is like officially inducted into Costa Nostra. Yes. Yeah. So when they left, they actually gave him a card.

if anybody bothers you, give us a ring, nobody will bother you no more. And when I came out, I talked to my father. I said, what was that all about? And he says, I told you once, there's guys that are close with us and guys you see undercorner. They're bad guys. They're bad guys. We know them.

I call my gumbara, told him the situation. He probably reached out, and they'll never bother us. That's what we do. They protect us. So I said, well, if that wouldn't happen, I was ready. What do you mean? I picked up my shirt and there was the gun. My fucking father flipped out on me.

It was the first time I think he almost hit me, took the gun away from me. We don't do this. We're legitimate people. If we have trouble like this, from people like that, we go to people like my gumbara, and that's when I found out later. I got the gun back. He gave me the gun back because it wasn't mine. It was Jerry Pappers' gun.

But that really woke me up, had a small, skinny little guy, had the power over these big, big, physically big guys to just back up like that. And I wondered what kind of power is this? And later I found out he was a made guy in Italy and a made guy here in the United States. And it got my interest in the mafia at a very, very young age. But I wasn't all that interested. I went back to the gang. I just hung out and stuff, and I didn't want no part of the mafia. But I understood their power now.

I started understanding that my neighborhood was entrenched with the mafia. Guys on the corner hanging out like you see in Gofellas shooting crap in the street. Police car parked there, guys leaning in there talking to the cops. The bar was there. They were all dressed up, diamond pinky rings, the whole nine yards. So I started to understand the mafia and the power. And then later on, a guy was found in the trunk, another guy was found in a trunk, and it became very normal growing up. Oh, my God, that's a mafia hit.

That's this, that's that. So I started to become, I understood the mafia. But I never had anybody in my personal family that was in the mafia. My sisters didn't go out with mafia guys. One of my brothers was a Navy guy who was in the Navy, and she went out with him. he became an engineer. My other brother-in-law later on in life, because that was the one who was five years older to me,

was Eddie Garifola. He was really a plumber. But he knew people in the street, but he wasn't a mafia guy. You got your own diamond pinky ring now. I was saying at dinner, like, that's new since I last saw you. Yeah, this is, well, we make it a few bucks now. Yeah.

So we get some bling-bling on our fingers. All right. So when you make, does it just grow proportionately to how much your YouTube channel grows? If I make more money, that bling-wling will be a little bit more. Like same setting, but the stone's bigger? Yeah, maybe some grill with some... You're going to get a grill?

Maybe a grill with some diamonds in my mouth. Let's see what happens. I heard those are hard to clean, but look, if you can just take out all your teeth now at age 74, what is 76, you could just put them all in the glass at night. That's right. Do they have those in stock, or do they have to dig up someone's grandfather to get you that? No, no, no. I have a friend who owns a jewelry store.

You know, the mafia, we have a friend of a friend of a friend. Always. friend always. So I got a friend there. They made this up for me. You know, I picked out what I want. I told them what I wanted. They showed me a few designs. And I said, this is nice. And they got the diamond. They made the setting. Call me up and gave it to me. So nice. It was. Yeah. It definitely stands out. I noticed yesterday at dinner. And I know. It's a nice little break. And I know that you got a certain way where you sit, right? We were having drinks yesterday. We were appetizers. And one hand down, one hand over the top. So the pinky's on top, right? That's deliberate. Yeah, yeah, for the waitress.

See the way she was looking at that diamond? Yeah, she thought she was getting a bigger tip. Yeah. So how did you end up joining? You saw the power. How did you end up joining? And then I was going to be very gracious at dinner because I knew you were picking up the check and I was going to tell her a $50 tip.

Yeah, yeah. You would have probably threw a punch out. No, no. You know, I love doing that kind of thing, actually. I do that a lot. She was good. Yeah, she was cool, right? I gave her nice big tip.

Servers right now are the whole. Yeah, and they're getting yelled at them. by idiots every day. And they got to wear a mask and this and that. It's crazy. I feel for them too. Yeah, me too. It's not a great job, probably for most people, when there isn't a pandemic.

So, yeah, now it's, if you're in a fortunate place in life, the best thing you can do is tip those people what they're worth. Yeah, absolutely. Or more than they're worth, because everybody else is screwing them over. So how did you end up joining? You saw the power. What shifted from? You know, that's not for me to, you know what?

Let's give it a try. In the gang, the ramp is we were young again, and we were like, fuck them off. We knew who they were. I knew exactly who they were, where they were. We didn't fuck with them. They're dangerous. So that's what happens in the neighborhood. So it was like we had our own little gang and clique and it was fuck the mafia.

It's us against the world type of attitude. That was our saying. And when I hit 19 years old, I got drafted into the army. The Vietnam War was raging on. It was 1964. So I got drafted. I went into the military. for two years. Now, if you joined the military, it was a three-year hookup. If you got drafted,

it was only two years. We trained. I was in the infantry. Then from the infantry, I went into communications. The people who are behind the lines getting communications from the guys in the front so that they could shoot these bombs and ahead of them, they're giving them information on what's going on. And then my job was to run to the front line, to talk to them or make sure the communications were right, as soon as they were right, I'd get the hell out of there and go back to the tent, go back further. So I was in there and I was taught to kill there first. When I got out, I was 21. I went right back into the rampers, but most of them had hooked up with the mafia. That bullshit, it's just us against the world. Most of them hooked up with somebody,

Colombo family, Genevese family, Gambino family. The neighborhood, you couldn't open up a card game or a club or a disco or anything without paying somebody something. So it was time to hook up. And a friend of mine, Tommy Spiro, his uncle, Shorty Spiro, was a heavyweight. They were in the first gala war. I knew who they were. He wanted to see me. He made an appointment.

I went and see him. And he had a good conversation of me. He was a good guy, ex-fighter, tough guy, pubs, smashed nose. But he was good. He said, listen, Sammy, you got to hook up. You're a tough kid. You're in fights. You know what's going to happen.

Someday, you're going to hit the wrong guy. They're going to find you in the trunk. You come with me. You'll be part of a family. There's music to my ears. I'll never lie to you. I'll never backstab. Whatever I ask you to do, I've done, and I will do it with you.

And I knew exactly what he was talking about. But I liked his pitch, and I shook his hand. and I was with at 23, I was an associate in the Colombo family. So that's when I hooked up at the age of 23. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Sammy the Bull. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Peloton. It's tempting to wait until the new year to start achieving your fitness goals.

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talked about during the show, those are all in one easy place. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com slash podcast. And now, back to Sammy the Bull. I know you later had, there was some sort of nonsense conflict that was made up by somebody. And that's in your podcast, which will link in the show notes. So I won't have you tell that whole story.

But you essentially end up switching to the Gambino family as a result to kind of keep, was it Spiro's son? And you were button heads because he was jealous or something like that. His brother. His brother. Okay. He was trying to cut, you know, it was like a rising star in the Colombo family, Carmine Persico was using me. So he was trying to cut me down with this bullshit story. I became so infuriated with that.

I got a gun and I went to his house to kill him. Right. This is my boss's brother. So this thing blew up. There was a major, major shit down between the Gambino family because I knew a lot of them and I was talking with them on different things. I would scores, stick up with some of them. So they were sitting down for me.

The Colombo's recognized that I was right. So they didn't want to kill me for what I did. They said you should have never went to the house. What were you going to do? Killed him right in front of his wife. I was going to, as soon as he came to the dog, I was going to kill him. I didn't give a fuck who he was. So you didn't really think that through, though, at the time?

No. No. And I already did a piece of work. I killed someone in the Colombo family for them already. So they knew I wasn't a joke. They knew this was going to happen. They didn't want to kill me because they said I was right. And they made a decision with the Gambino family,

Carlo Gambino was talking for me, the bosses in the Colombo family. We can't keep them together. We got to split them up. What we'll do is we'll transfer him over to the Gambino family with this guy, Tato, and was very powerful captain. I actually knew and grew up with his son, Charlie Boyle. I never knew his father, Tato, but I knew of him.

I was going to be placed over there with him. This whole thing would go away. I had to give my word. I would never kill him, and I didn't. He was told to stay away from me. And if he ever opened his mouth about me or did anything, they will kill him. So that was the decision. That was the end of that then, right?

That was the end of it. And I was now in the Gambino family. This might be an obvious question, but how are the families named, right? So obviously it's the founder's name or something like that. But if Paul Costellano was the boss, why is it still called the Gambino family and not the Castellano family? Why do they leave it as the older name? Because I know the family sometimes switch names, but I don't know when that happens versus when it doesn't. Most of the times it doesn't happen because the guy, why would he want to take that kind of heat?

Paul Castell now. Oh, yeah, good point. Hey, police. I'm in charge now. Hey, I'm the boss. I'm this. The whole news media knows it. The whole world knows it.

Even if you got pinched, this is the boy. Everybody knows you the boss. I mean, why would you want that label? Yeah, that's it. So they just left the labels that started earlier. Yeah. You can tell I didn't think that went through. All right.

So that's fine. How do the families differ then in sort of culture? and types of crimes. Because I think you had mentioned in one interview that some families do way more violent stuff than others and others are more racketeering than others. Well, I'll give you an example. The Colombo family, for instance, I wasn't there. Everything was beat this guy up, shoot this guy, break his legs, do this, do that. And in the second part of the war with the gallows, I was with them. I wasn't with them when the first part. Everybody went to jail. It stopped. When they It came back out. It started again. And Shorty had told me, go home and get your clothes. We're going to hit the mattresses.

So I was in the second part of that war. So I was already hitting the mattresses. And Shorty and them explained to me because I had a girlfriend. You're done with that. You're done with people. O'D your money. You're done with that. You're going to just live with us every single minute of every day. Eat sleep and shit with us. And I didn't even hardly understand that. Why? He said, there are a pack of wolves and they're watching us. When somebody strays, they're going to kill them. They're going to be there to kill them. And we're a pack of wolves doing the same thing against them. So the only way you could survive is you got to stay with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week. If you have a job, quit. I didn't have a job, obviously, but you're done with everything. You're going to live with us all the time. Forget the girls. Forget everything. And I did. So it was a different lifestyle. When I got with the Gambino family, it was totally

different. It was more into unions, open up businesses, scams, shakes, all kinds of different things, opening up businesses, bakeries, different things. So it was a whole different mindset. Not that they couldn't kill you or wouldn't kill you. They could. But violence to them set second. It's only as a last resort we kill. So the mentality was totally different. Kosanostra means our thing, right? Yes. So what does that really mean? It's just kind of like that's the low-key name for this is our private business. No, our thing is our thing. It's our thing. It's not a gang. It's not a different organization. It's our thing. The Goshen Austria is our thing. The code we live by, the rules we live by, it's our thing. It doesn't pertain to the rest of the world.

So what does it mean to be then made? How does that happen? A lot of people know that. the term, but not necessarily what that entails. A lot of people don't understand that there's sort of different rungs on the ladder. Well, you're an associate. You don't join to get made. You don't ask to be made. Someone, like in my case, Tidal, after years of being with him and all kinds of different situations, he proposes me to become a made member. Now, he's a captain. He brings this right up to the bosses. The books were closed from 1955 to 1975. That means no more made guys. Nobody got me.

Why did they lock it down? Well, there was stories of people paid to get somebody made. They didn't really belong. They made mistakes. You have to earn what you are. And somebody's got to have that kind of an interest in you. And if you make somebody and you're making a major mistake, you can die for that. So they make sure that they know you, what you did, where you grew up, who your mother, father was, how you think, how you were when you got arrested.

Did you kill? Didn't you kill for what reasons? All of these things. They take everything into consideration. So it opened up in 1975. I was still an associate. I never even dreamt. I mean, I dreamt. I would have loved to get made because a lot of these people were my idols. But I never thought it was possible for me to get made. I didn't have a family member. I didn't. I had nothing. So, Tidal proposed me in 1976. I finally went in and got made. One day he says, get dressed, suit, shirt, tie. We've got to go to a meeting. No questions, we're going to go.

And I went with his son was coming to. Me and his son got made the same day. We went to this house. Eventually, there was 10 of us. Each guy went down one at a time. When he went down, he obviously got made. I was the last guy out of the tent to go down. And I went down.

It was a little strange at first. A guy went down, he never came back. I even joked with Charlie. But I kind of knew what was going on at that point. I didn't know when I first went there that day. But I started understanding. So I told Charlie, I said, bro, nobody comes back. Who goes downstairs?

Nobody comes back. He said, no, no, we'll be all right. The father must have told him what was going on. They didn't tell me. But anyway, I went down. There was Paul Castellano standing there. I went in. I stood by him, and I took the oath.

Paul Costalano's the boss. Yeah. He's the boss. You took the oath of Cosa Nostra. So what is that in short? What is it? Long story is short, they give you this saint. They take blood from you and put the blood on the saint.

They put it in your hands, in between your hands, and they put it on fire. So you don't burn your hand much, you juggle it back and forth as it's burning. and they talk to you and you repeat after them and you take this oath of Gonzoroz. At the end of that ceremony, you're a maid guy in the mafia. You go around the table and you meet everybody in there as either a maid guy or a captain

or the boss, the underboss, the Gonzsia, then all the captains, and the guys who went down before me were sitting at that table. They were now made members. So I was made. They did a small little celebration and then me and Tato and Charlie Boy went back to Tados Club where there was other guys who were previously made

and they were waiting for us. They knew what was going on. What are the rules then? There's ways you introduce each other and stuff like that, right? Yes. You can't introduce yourself. You can't acknowledge, you can't say I'm a main guy. You can't introduce yourself.

Even if I knew you were a made guy, there's somebody who has to be a made guy who was introduced properly, to you, that guy is necessary for him to introduce you to me. Then we can accept, and only then could we accept that we're both made guys. This guy, if he ever made a mistake and introduced somebody, and it was wrong, he'll die for that. So they're very tight about doing that. So you can't break that circle. And more or less, you might have known he's a made guy or he's a captain, and he's making that introduction.

So he's already met you as a friend. He already knows me as a friend. Now he's introducing us as main guys, as a friend of ours. Now, we know each other. We may know hundreds of guys who are made guys, but we can't acknowledge that until there's that third person who introduces us as a main guy.

And that's to avoid me accidentally telling somebody who's not made some sort of, you don't want any disclosure. You don't want any outsiders? No, no, it's a secret society and a brotherhood. You don't want to break that code. And you can't break that code. I give you an example.

I was in the West Chesa Premier Theater, and the main guy who I was introduced, who came over to me and said, there's a guy here, Jimmy the Weasel. He's a boss now in California. I was in the West Chesa Premier Theater with my wife. He says he wants me to introduce guys who are friends to him. And I said, oh, I'm here by myself with my wife.

Not now. I don't want to meet him. And he went and told this guy. And the guy came back to me. I was sitting my wife and who's really rough with his language talking to me. Who the fuck you think you are? I said, listen, bro, I'm sitting my wife. You want to talk to me? My wife says, Sammy, what's going on? Nothing. Go by the bar and get a drink. And I said, listen, don't talk to me like that in front of my wife. You know who I am? I don't give a fuck who you are. I never met him as a friend. So I don't owe him no respect whatsoever. And he talked to me a little man. I'm a boss. I don't give a fuck what you are. If you don't get the fuck away from me, you keep talking like this. I'm going to knock your fucking teeth down your throat. And he walked away.

Superman. The next day I'm called in to Paul Castellano. The title tells me that he wants to meet you. What'd you do? I had an argument last night with this guy, Jimmy the Weasel. He took me to Paul Castellano. And Paul asked me. So he says, you talk to him like that?

Yeah. And Paul said, I thought this is the code. I never met him. Somebody says he's a boss. I never met him as a friend. He's telling me he's a boss. He's telling me that I'm a maid guy, and I'm not supposed to respect that.

And I didn't. And he was a little voistrous. And I, yeah, I told him I will knock his fucking face in. Paul says he did right. He fucked this guy. He knows the procedure, and he's breaking the procedure. A couple weeks or a month or two or whatever it was later, he said he's not the fucking boss.

Number one, he bullshit of people. He was made, he wasn't a boss and he was actually a confidential informant. Oh, wow. So I heard that later on and Paul second time told me that day you did that, I wish you would have hit him. But, you know, that's one day call it back. But you can't break into this. There's a guy, somebody's telling me he's a boss. He can't tell me he's a boss. He can't tell me shit until somebody comes over and says, Sammy, he's on meganos. He's a friend of ours. Here's Jimmy Wiesel. He's a friend of ours. He's a friend of hours, he's the representant or the boss of whatever fucking family he comes from.

And it was from California, so I don't give him who he was, really. I didn't want to meet him. I just wanted to be, I was with my wife. I just wanted have dinner. What movie were you watching? No, it was a show where they had entertainers come and sing on stage and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah, I wondered if you remembered. Now, that's interesting. So that keeps everything confidential and keeps everything buttoned up. Right. So what are the ranks in the mafia, right? So I know you at the top or the underboss, there's the boss above that. below that is what made captains?

A boss, an under boss, who's usually his right-hand man and his muscle. There's a Kunzlier. A gunzier is third in command. He's like a lawyer. He knows goes an extra good. He could sit with other families to argue situations. He could even represent somebody in the family that's having a disagreement with the boss. If you're a lower level, the worst thing you can have is a disagreement with the boss.

So he'll talk with the boss and maybe try to reason for him. He didn't mean what he said or this or that. He's like a peacemaker. So it really is like a lawyer. He's like a lawyer, more or less. He's a counselor or a gonzlija. Below that there's captains, Gabrizini or a captain. And each one of those captains has made guys under him, a crew of made guys and some associates.

So I got made in 76. The following year, for Christmas, Tado took us all to a restaurant. We were in the back room. He excused everybody who wasn't a friend of ours. There were associates, good guys, but they can't be in that kind of a conversation. And he said, I never had an acting captain, an acting galbraji. He said, this year, I think it's time for me to put somebody as an acting captain. And there was a table, maybe about eight, nine of us in that room. I just got made a year ago. There was guys, older guys there who had been made, God knows how many years. They'd been made, God knows how many years. They'd been. been made. So he picked up the glass and everybody picked up the glass and he says, as of today, Sammy, Sammy the Bull, is my acting abridu de jim. Anytime you have anything and I'm not around, you can come to him first and then come to me. I may be in a hospital, I may be in prison, no matter where I am, or I may be out of town. You could talk to Sammy like you talk to me. Tell him what your situation is and he'll bring it to me or make the appointment for you to come in.

So I was totally shocked. So you didn't see that coming. You didn't know. No, no, absolutely. I'm only made a year. And I'm still a pup. I'm still young. I was 31 when I got made.

Now I'm 32 years old. These guys are in their 50s, 60s. Some of them 70. I never saw that coming in a million years. His son is there. Wow. So he made me the acting of the jeep. Which was a tremendous honor to me that night.

It was more of an honor later on a couple of years when I'm by. Maybe not a couple years. Maybe a year, you're in a half, two years. the most. One of the guys in the crew came and said, Sammy, I know why Tato made this decision now, and he made the right decision. You're the right man for this job. And through that time, as before I knew him, he would tell me a lot of times he would want me in the back for different reasons when there was a meaning of some sort. And he would tell me, just sit in and don't open your mouth. Once or twice I asked him, why do you want me in there? Is there a problem? No, he says,

I got a feeling someday you're going to be sitting in my chair and I want you to learn the life, which was a big compliment. Now he was doing that all the time with me. Whenever there was a problem, it's always Sammy, I was the acting. Sammy, drive me to Paul's house, drive me to this meeting. One time he was on the land. He was in Florida. He made his sons get a good phone where we know it's not bugged.

And he got me on the phone and he told me, says, do me a big favor. a couple of things I want to ask you, not on the phone. My sons are going to give you an airline ticket. Get on the plane. Tommy Bellotti was with him. He said, Tommy will pick you up at the airport and I want to see you just for a day or two. And I did.

I did that. So, I mean, I was up and coming and going more and more. I was into businesses now, unions and stuff like that. I was just growing up. My name and reputation, everybody thinks is because I was efficient as a hitman, which I was. But I was efficient in business with unions and businesses. I mean, history shows I had five or six construction companies going. I was running three or four different unions.

And it showed that I became extremely powerful. And a lot of people think I became extremely powerful because I threatened people. It wasn't that way at all. It was just the opposite. I was fair, honest, open. I always tried to keep that in mind. Like Shorty said, I'm not a backstab. and I treated people the right way.

So people enjoyed sitting down with me how to sit down. Now, I'm going to go with Sammy. That's great. He'll work out a good deal for us. This is guys in other families. So my reputation that way was actually bringing me more strength, more notoriety than the killing part. When I did cooperate, to give you an example, my reputation in business and unions and stuff like that was much more explosive. than the violent part of me.

So when I cooperate with the government, they said in the conversations, how many murders you were involved in? You're involved in the Castellano? Yeah, a couple. What's a couple? I said, I really don't keep count. I don't do that.

Well, about approximately, 18, 19, 20, they were fucking dumbfounded. So the government... They thought it would be more or they thought it would be less. They had no fucking idea. I was... So people... think now they know the number.

Yeah, okay. Oh, so before they were like, oh, he's diplomatic. He's diplomatic. He's doing this. He's running unions. He's important, and he's involved in the Castellano. I didn't in a few other heads, probably. But they never knew I did that kind of work. They really weren't that afraid of me that way. Of course, they knew I was a tough guy,

and I must have been involved in a couple of murders. But to give you an example, even when I cooperated, I talk with the government. All right, Sammy, we know you're involved in the Castellano hit and probably a few others. How many hits are you involved in? I said, you know, I'm involved in the Castellano hit. I'm involved in a few others.

I said, listen, I don't keep count. I don't know. Give us an approximate. Did you really not keep count, or you just weren't going to volunteer that? No, no, no, no. I really didn't keep count. It's not something I like doing.

I notice maybe it's going to sound like bullshit to people, but it's not something I like. And I'll tell you why in a little bit. But anyway, I said, approximately 18, 19, 20, I don't know. They were dumbfounded. So the government never realized how much of a hit guy I was. They were after me more for the unions and businesses and stuff like that. And they figured behind John, he was involved in a couple of hits, but he was the power behind the throne. So they really got excited about me in that way. They didn't know it was involved

than that many murders. And like, I'm saying, the whole neighbor didn't know that. They didn't know why I was capable, but I got a bigger reputation on my legitimate end. Of course, now people say, yeah, it must have been easy. He's involved in 19 murders, so everybody was afraid of them. They didn't know. I didn't walk around and tell nobody, I didn't brag. I didn't do shit like that.

That wasn't my really rising star. It was business, unions, dealings, and how I dealt with people. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Sammy the Bull. We'll be right back. And now for the rest of Part 1 with Sammy the Bull. Yeah, how do people get paid in Cozano? There's no payroll, obviously. You're not getting a check from Paul Castellano or John Gotti, right?

So revenue generation is, you said, robbing rackets. How does the union construction racket work? You told us about this at dinner, like last year or two years ago, how this scheme worked to generate money. When you're controlling the unions, you're controlling a big construction jobs, 50, 60, 70 million dollar high-rise jobs and stuff like that. So you're having a lot of power. So they know that that I'm controlling that kind of power. I could shut a job down in a blink of an eye.

I could cause a strike to happen. It's a lot of power. When they're building a high-rise, they got this fence going around the entire project. The guy who stands at the fence that's open and allows the trucks to go in and out is a teamster foreman. I control the teamsters in the construction industry. So I could tell a teamster foreman. You're a team's deformed. I'm going to tell you, you know what you do?

When the truck comes in, this is legal, ask for his license, check his lights, his brake lights, this, that make sure you sit with that guy for 20 minutes to a half hour, calling up, checking if his union dues are up to date. Do everything. Three hours goes by. There's 50, 60 trucks lined up, can't get in. Because they're supposed to go in, drop off the dirt or the pipes or the whatever, and back. Concrete, all this stuff. Like every 15 minutes. Every 10, five minutes. They've got to be going in and out, in and out, in and out. They need that flow. So in two hours, whoever the major I'll use Trump as an example. Trump is now calling Bobby Sassel, who's the head of the union. You're killing me. What are you doing?

There's a guy down here. You can't get through the thing. Oh, no, no. He's doing his job. What do you want me to do? Well, I'll talk to him and I'll try and straighten this out. By the way, the little guy is to call me the little guy. I'm little. The little guy was a little confused. He bid the drywall job, $7 million job. He didn't get it. Oh. Listen, listen, I got another project coming up. Let him come up.

and pick up the blueprints. That's sheer power. I'm getting that next job. He's never going to go to Trit out again. When he answers like that, Bobby Saso says, Sam, he's the next job. He wants you to pick the blueprints up. So I go back to you.

You're a young thug, making $65,000 being there, and you, it's a half-and-no-show job. Just let the trucks go, have your coffee, joke with people, go home early, come in a little late. I worry about it. Just keep the fucking thing open.

So now I tell you, listen, stop breaking balls with the trucks. Go back to drinking coffee, do X, Y, Z. It's back to normal. Yeah, yeah. So I make his life come back to normal. Yeah, you control the bottleneck of the whole construction site. You've got, they're losing 50 grand or 100 grand a day or whatever it is. Maybe more than that.

Literally, like time is money in this case, and you can make time slow down to a crawl. It's nail space. And I could actually, if I create a union strike, a problem. Something blows up and all of a sudden people are there with pickets and there's a legitimate problem. All the unions, plumbers, carpenters, everybody, don't pass that picket line. So nothing's getting done. Nothing is getting done. Everybody's fucking complaining and this little guy

from Benson Heist Brooklyn is making that happen or not happen. So that's sheer power. So now I'm doing my drywall work. Sometimes it's union, sometimes it's not union. Nobody's going to fuck with me. You got a container company. Bro, I'll go partner zero two with container. We can get some good work.

I got connections to buy good containers. This happened. How much do you make a year? Profit. About 100,000 a year. Okay. From this point on, put the 100,000 a year on the site. anything you make above that 100,000, give me 25%.

Okay. Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good deal. So at the end of the year, I come back to you. How'd we do? I made $400,000 this year. Well, that $100,000 is on the side. So on the 300,000, 25% of $75,000, you got to give me. Boom, he gives it to you in two seconds.

Yeah. He picked up two and a quarter more than he normally does. So when the agents asked me at one conversation, what did you say? say and do to get all these people to do things. You threaten them out. I said, I never threatened them. And then they said, how come they never ratted on you? They were afraid of you. I said, no. Why would they rat on me? Everybody around me made money. What is he going to come and tell you? I'm so mad at Sammy. I made $225,000 more than I would have normally made. I'm retiring 10 years early. I'm so mad. Yeah, I'm so fucking mad. And no, he doesn't,

he doesn't threaten me. I get tickets when I'm going on vacation or my wife. The team's the foreman. Every time there's a move, I throw a bone. So you're a street thug. You're making $65,000 a year. As a team to form it, keep your nose clean, and listen to what we tell you. And he's happy as a pig and shit. Everyone says, oh, wow, we make a score because a contract that'll,

after a while, they'll say, Sammy, give me your good teams to form it. Yeah, okay, that's $100,000. You could tax some on to my contract, and I'll get the money, and I pay Bobby Sassau. And result, I come down to you, this little street dog who makes things happening. I tell him, hey, bro, this year go on vacation for you and your wife. Put this $5,000 in your pocket and enjoy it.

You, your wife and your kids go on vacation. They love me. Making $65,000 is another $5,000 bonus. That don't happen once. That happens multiple times. I'm fair. Honest with everything. There is nobody ratting.

There is nobody complaining. There's an army of people want to be around me. And that's business. When you're honest, open, sincere, and good with people, nothing's going to go wrong for you. It's when you're a piece of shit, going there, threatening people, give me the job, I'll kill you, and you're going to get trouble. So I told the government, that's why they never rat it on me. Why should they? Maybe he had an argument with his wife when he was on vacation that I paid for.

What the fuck is a guy? Why would he tell you anything? So it's the carrot, not the stick. Yeah. It's the carrot, not the stick. I mean, they always knew that I was capable. I had the stick in my back pocket. They knew that.

But that wasn't the motivation for people to be around me. I believe you can threaten people once or twice. They can't wait to get the fuck away from you. If you betray people, nobody wants to do business with you. If you're a liar, a fake, a phony, who the fuck wants to be with you? I know I don't want to be with people like that. So I'm sure if I was like that, they don't want to be close to me.

I understand that. I understand business, and I understand human nature. How much do mobsters make each year if they're doing it right? I know it's, of course, different for everybody, but what's a good take for somebody who knows what they're doing? There's all different kinds of things that they do this. There's different numbers. There's no such thing as one thing.

If you're the boss of the family, you're getting it from so many different people. Every captain is kicking up. So he kicks up. So at one point in our family and again, being out family, it was 21 captains. Now, who's bringing him 5,000? Who's bringing him 50,000? I have no idea.

But the numbers are enormous. So the higher you're up on the ladder, because everything in the mob goes up. An associate gives to the maid guy a piece of something. If he's got 10 associates, 10 guys are giving him. He's given a piece of that whole pie to the captain. The captain's getting it for 5, 6, 8, wise guys, and maybe some associates.

A picture that is going up to the administration. The boss, the under boss, the underboss who goes there. But it's to the boss. It's up to the boss what he wants to give to the underboss or the concier. It doesn't have to be a split. It doesn't have to be whatever he wants. But none of them are broke because all of them had this tremendous life. So when they get up that high, they're all pretty wealthy.

What do you think the boss was making at any given point? Or would you share how much you made in a good year? Well, the last year before I got pinched, I would, every go home, once a week I would do all my books, who owed me money? I had a million and a half in the street, Sherlock money. Like loans out to other people? Loans and stuff. So what I did is every week I would take how much I had in cash. And I would say, okay, this much is going, went to these people, I paid them, this much I did for party and this much I did with this.

Now, what was I left with? I was left with approximately $45,000 in cash a week, almost on a steady diet. So I could honestly say I was making about $45,000 a week in cash on a steady diet. And my legitimate business is the last year when I filed, I filed $750,000 was my legitimate earnings. And so if you take all those numbers and put them together, I was making a lot of money. Yeah, so it's millions of dollars a year. And this is, is this 1980s money? This is, I got pitched in 90. So this is in the 80s, upper 80s, because I wasn't doing that. But up in 80s, 90, I went away December and 90. And that was my last tax thing I paid.

Caleb, can you do inflation-adjusted income for, let's say, $200,000 a month and tax-free and then $750 on top of it for, let's say it's $19. Now, if you could do that, I'm going to hire you right now. I'm going to need you in my office. There's inflation calculator. Per month times 12, so 2.4 million plus $7. I think that's $6 million. Yeah, I think it's $6 million. Now it's time.

Yeah, so that's $6 million. So that's a lot of money, especially since a lot of it's not taxed. Right, you're not going to the IRS. By the way, I'm making $200,000 a month from Shylock money. No, they're never seen that. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a preview with a former undercover FBI agent who infiltrated the Gambino crime family in New York for nearly three years, resulting in the arrest and conviction of 35 mobsters.

And get this, he's not even Italian. Here's a bite. Jordan, I've done everything. I mean, I have posed as a money laundry. I've worked as a drug dealer. I have worked as a transporter for drug dealers. as a warehouse guy. The whole gamut. My career was 24 out of 26 years. Was solely dedicated working on the cover. If I wasn't working for the FBI, I would have been investigated by the FBI.

Exactly. Yeah. I walk in. I'm in the bar. Now, there's a barmate there. Good looking young lady. She's serving me truly. Yeah, what would you like? I usually my drink was give me a kettle, one martini, three olives, a glass of water on the side. I finished the drink. The guys come in. I'm going to go. go in my pocket, take out the big water money and not with the rubber band on it. Bam, give her a hundred dollars. You're not a guy who takes out a little leather wallet and he's going through the change or he's doing it.

Can you imagine four gangs are sitting around going, let's split it up. I had the soup. You had to sandwich and french fries. What about the tech? Sometimes we get into bidding work. That goes, hey, your money's no good here. What are you doing?

You're embarrassing me over here. What do you mean? You paid a lad. Let me get it. Forget about it. You pay for it. If I would have gone in there and became a guy who had never a penny, never went into his wallet, never picked up a tab, never had a dime,

never kicked up money, never gave tribute payments. That'd be on my ass, they throw me out. If you're with the mob, I say, hey, Jordan, you're on record with us. That means we protect you. Nobody could shake you down. We could shake you down. You're on record with us. For more, including tricks wise guys used to know who's legit and who's not,

mob culture and the rules that govern the always upward flow of money, and how Jack became so trusted by the highest levels of the organization that they offered him the chance to become a made man. Check out episode 392 of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Jack Garcia. That's it for part one. Part two coming up in a few days. Thanks to Sammy for being on the show. We'll have links to all his stuff on the website in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com.

please use our website links if you buy books from the guest in any country any sort of book audio books included that does help support the show. Worksheets for the episodes are in the show notes, transcripts are in the show notes, and there's a video of this interview going up on our YouTube at jordanharbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with you there. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use every single day. That's our six-minute networking course. The course is free. There's no catch, no nonsense. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. I'm teaching you how to dig the well

before you get thirsty and most of the guests on the show. Not Sammy the Bull. I will admit, he is not in the networking course, but many slash most of the guests on the show. Do subscribe and contribute to that course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. This show is created an association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Miliocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's interested in the mafia and old mobsters or not so old mobsters, definitely share this episode with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of this show.

Please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, maybe not like the murdering people thing, though, so you can live what you listen. and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-dishwashing and go, wait, what that actually happened? You got to subscribe to What Was That Like?

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Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know Podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show,

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