The Jordan Harbinger Show - 598: Gently Sequestering a Questionable Counselor | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

A medical issue has rendered your therapist colleague mentally (and ethically) incapable of providing care for others, but she hasn't accepted this. How can you support management's efforts to establish reasonable cause for termination without feeling so guilty? This and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/598 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: How can you get better at your job when the boss is afraid to constructively criticize your performance just because you're the heir apparent to the family business? A medical issue has rendered your therapist colleague mentally (and ethically) incapable of providing care for others, but she hasn't accepted this. How can you support management's efforts to establish reasonable cause for termination without feeling so guilty? You're at a lucky point in your life where everything seems to be falling into place, but you can't curb the urge to shop impulsively and worry this could be the domino that brings all good things down. How can you keep your sticky fingers off your credit cards before catastrophe strikes? On the job hunt after learning a new skill set, you've noticed that listing pronouns on LinkedIn profiles has become pretty common and you support the idea. But you happen to live in a conservative-leaning state and worry that prospective employers in your area might not be as open-minded if you chose to observe this practice. What's the right move here? Nearing 30, you and your long-term significant other own an investment property together and run your own business, but you live with your parents because it's culturally acceptable and it allows you to build capital for the future. However, you've been feeling social pressure to move out and you're wondering if it's finally time. Should you stay or should you go? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, The Maestro with the Advice Flow, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So we want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. Now, if you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the

week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, to authors, thinkers, and performers. In this week, we had Andrew Gold, who exposes and documents a lot of really interesting subject matter from fake exorcisms, not that there are any real exorcisms, to admitted pedophiles and more. He's up and coming in the documentary space, and I really enjoyed my conversation with him. We also had one from the vault Gary Vaynerchuk, recorded a few years back. This episode profile is one of the most, I guess you could say, prolific social media personalities of our time.

So make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything that we created for you here this week. It's a busy time of year, and I've seen and heard a lot of complaining about how there's not enough time of the day. And I've done some of that complaining myself, but when I sit down and think about it, I would estimate that at least half of my frustrations with others are actually frustrations with myself for failing to set clear boundaries and stand by them, whether it's a commitment I don't want to deal with or go to or somebody who I'm still somehow subjecting myself to, even though I've grown tired of them years ago. It's almost always on me. So this is

something to think about between cooking, shopping, entertaining the kids and the family and all the rest of the things you might not have time for this holiday season. Where are your boundaries and where can you set more clear boundaries? You know, you don't have to have interactions with people you can't stand all the time. Sure, there's occasional Uncle Frank. That happens. But, you know, it's time for us to start protecting our time. It's really the only thing we can't get back. That old cliche is true. All right, as always, we've got some fun ones and some wild ones, Gabe. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my late 20s and my family owns a very successful pest control company. The company prides itself on the fact that everyone in a position of power

started their careers as technicians. I've spent the last five years working in the field where I've been successful and promoted to regional assistant, helping run a region with 11 branches. I'm now in line to take over my father's position as president and COO. I've clearly been blessed with one hell of an opportunity. I am very motivated and driven and I work very hard. My boss always says you have to earn respect before you can use any authority, which is spot on. But that's not why I'm crawling under houses, digging drains under houses until I have heat stroke or bleeding through five pairs of gloves in a day's work. I do it because our employees look up to me. I want to lead by example. I want to prove that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make sure they know I'll always be

there for them. Inevitably, however, people do look at me differently. I typically get pinned as the rich white kid who didn't have to work for anything. I'm also on a fast track not only because of my last name, but because I'm pretty damn good at my job. But everyone I haven't worked with thinks any movement up the totem pole is because of my family. And my regional manager, who's My boss calls me his boss and doesn't tell me when I'm doing something wrong. I can see right through someone who's saying what they think I want to hear and I hate it. So how can I grow when my boss is afraid to constructively criticize my performance? Signed, terminating this special treatment.

Such a great question. When people talk about the dysfunction and ineptitude of family-owned businesses, this is oftentimes the reason. People in the family play by different rules from regular employees. So they're on the inside track, their wealth and position are usually secured. Even if they're smart and ambitious like you, which I think is super admirable, they still have a privileged position that they just can't shake. And even if the company creates certain rules like everyone has to start out as a technician

in the field, which, by the way, that's an excellent policy. The reality is you're in line to take over from your father because you're his son. And no manager wants to be the guy who yelled at you for making a mistake when you were young, knowing that in the next few years, you're going to be deciding his bonus. The irony is, you actually want people to treat you normally and giving you real feedback would probably build a stronger relationship with you, but that's my point. The politics, real or perceived, are super messy, which, let's just acknowledge, that is tough. This has got to be a very tricky position for you to be in. I know you get a lot of shit for being the Kendall Roy of this family,

but I really feel for you here, because what I'm hearing in your, letter is not just how do I grow when my boss won't give me feedback, but also how do I value myself? How do I know I even have what it takes? How do I know how people feel about me outside of my role in this family? That must be very confusing sometimes. And the fact that you want to cut through that and actually be a great leader, I think that says a lot about you. So here's what I would do. First of all, if you want your manager to give you meaningful feedback, then I would tell them very bluntly what you want, and give him permission to speak to you like a regular employee. You could say something like, listen, Frank, I want you to know how much I appreciate your guidance.

I'm learning a ton. I'm really glad I got to start out working for you. I know it must be tricky for you to manage the boss's son. It's weird for me too, but I want you to know that I'm determined to become a great leader. Sometimes I get the feeling that you might be treating me with kid gloves, which I can understand, but that's not what I want. What I want is for you to treat me like any other employees, seriously. And I want to ask you to stop calling me your boss, because I'm not there yet. I'm your guy right now. And I don't think I'll ever be a good boss to you in the future if you give me special status

right now. Something like that. You have to make Frank feel safe being real with you, and you have to mean this when you say it. No lip service to the idea of being treated like everyone else. You have to really be ready for meaningful criticism. And when he gives it to you, say thank you. Take it on board.

apply what he teaches you. The more he sees you really engaging with his feedback, the more he'll feel validated and safe continuing to do that, and the more you'll learn. And look, I'll be honest, you might not succeed 100% here. There might always be a part of Frank and everyone else in this company that's always very aware that you're going to be the boss one day. And that's why you can't really win here. This is why family businesses are so tricky. But even if you get frank, like 80% of the way there. That would be a huge win. And given that, the other thing I would do is seek out your own sources of professional development. If you are really determined to be an amazing president and COO, I would be learning from as many outside sources as you can.

Read the top business books from the last 30 years. Listen to interviews with the best managers. Learn how other companies manage their employees. Give yourself like a mini MBA here. The other thing I would do is consider hiring an executive coach. It might seem premature, but I would be thinking five to ten years ahead here. You need a voice that isn't beholden to your dad or worried about what you might think of them, somebody who will tell you when you are mismanaging a project or struggling to lead and work with you to level up. Because like I said, it's very possible that you won't get truly unvarnished feedback from

within the company. But if you find it outside and then you bring it in, that would help you avoid the pitfalls of all this kid-gloving and politicking, which is usually the downfall of all talented privileged people. And by the way, if you want a great case study for your situation, just watch a little documentary called Succession. That show is a friggin masterclass in what happens to companies that don't figure out how to deal with this problem. It's also kind of hilarious. So I would start taking things into your own hands a little more. You sound like a thoughtful young person. That made me feel really old saying that, by the way. You're really willing to get your hands dirty,

you crave real feedback, you're genuinely interested in your employee's success. That puts you in like the 0.001% of leaders. But because of your position, you're going to have to work harder than most people to get the education. You need to really thrive. So don't be afraid to do that. That is part of your job right now. And while you do that, keep asking yourself how you're going to fix this problem in the future. Because if you have kids who grow up in the business one day, you're going to face this exact same issue as well.

And you might be the one who finally solves it. Good luck. You know who isn't afraid to tell you what you really need? Me, hawk and my sponsor's products and services. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals for all the details on everybody that

helps support the show. And now, back to Feedback Friday on the Jordan Harbinger show. All right, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a licensed clinical social worker who works for an agency that provides counseling services to military families. I love my job, I love the clients I serve, and I love that I get to be a meaningful part of people's lives. The problem is, one of my colleagues had a medical issue a few years back that I seriously impacted her ability to function. Oftentimes, I find that her sentences don't make sense. She becomes confused and disoriented, and she cannot adequately track what's

being discussed in team meetings or even one-on-one. I'm prone to having empathy for the challenges people face in their lives. I mean, hello, I'm a therapist, so I find myself losing my mind over my colleagues and ability to perform her job. It also impacts our team systematically, as she is simply not capable of carrying an equal caseload to me or our other team members. But the most significant issue here is her meeting with clients. Some of them have described their experiences with her as quote-unquote bizarre and ultimately discontinued services because of which is deeply sad to me. I'm not alone in my concern, and other programs are now no longer referring to her because they doubt that she can ethically provide therapy. My supervisor has

started to inquire about specific instances of my coworker's mental status and how it impacts client care. Now I have feelings of guilt for collecting and reporting data on my coworker, but I wonder if my discomfort is worth it if it means protecting the profession and the clients that it's designed to serve. I know there's the option to file a board complaint, but that feels much more drastic, and I'm just not ready to take such a formal stance. So how involved should I be in supporting management's efforts to establish reasonable cause for termination? Signed, the conflicted clinician. Wow, this is fascinating, Gabe, and also kind of sad, a social worker slash therapist who's going through some pretty serious stuff herself, and then you have this

woman who's stuck between empathizing with her colleague and protecting her patients. That is a really tough situation. It's got to be incredibly hard. when a colleague is suffering and you have to take some action that would upset them, maybe even compromise their career. But then you also have to uphold your ethical obligation to your patients. So what do you do? We wanted to talk to an expert about your situation, so we consulted with the one and only Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist, licensed social worker, and friend of the show. And Dr. Margolis helped us see that this choice you're facing, even though it's putting you in a very difficult position.

It's actually fairly straightforward. She pointed us to the National Association of Social Workers' Code of Ethics. I just happened to have a copy on my nightstand, which, as you know, is basically the Bible for your profession. And the first sentence of the first section literally says, Social Workers' primary responsibility is to promote the well-being of clients. Then, later in the Impairment of Colleagues section, apparently they've thought about this already,

it says, social workers who have direct knowledge of a social work colleague's impairment that is due to personal problems, psychosocial distress, substance abuse, or mental health difficulties, and that interferes with practice effectiveness should consult with that colleague when feasible and assist that colleague in taking remedial action. And it goes even further because later it says that social workers who believe that the colleague has not taken adequate steps to address the impairment should take action through appropriate channels. So right there, it's pretty damn clear.

You have an ethical obligation to intervene if your colleague's impairment is clearly interfering with their effectiveness, full stop. So the first thing I'd do, if you haven't done this already, is talk to your colleague directly. I would take her to lunch or go for a walk and approach this conversation with a ton of compassion and respect. Maybe you say something like, listen,

I just wanted to check in with you and see how you're doing. I know you've been through a lot lately. I want to support you and our patience as best I can, and I can tell you're really struggling these days. And I got to say, I have noticed that you seem confused recently, a little disoriented. It seems like it's hard for you to track what's being discussed in meetings, even when we talk one-on-one.

So what's going on? Are you noticing any of that, too? And then talk it out. See if she'll acknowledge any of what you're noticing. Maybe she breaks down and says she's under a ton of stress and she's taking six months off, and then the situation will be resolved, or she'll ask you for help getting better and you can share some resources and support her, but if she denies that anything is wrong or she admits that she's struggling but doesn't take

any steps to get better, then I think you have to escalate this. And by the way, having this conversation with your colleague first, that's important for several reasons. First of all, you're ethically obligated to do so. As Dr. Margolis explained to us, there can be significant penalties for violating ethical obligations, ranging from a slap on the wrist to a financial fine, to having your license suspended, to losing your license altogether. Very unlikely in this situation, but it is possible. The other reason I would have this conversation is if there were any legal or ethical action taken against your agency by your colleague or anyone else, for that matter, you'd be able to stand behind the ethical obligation that you had to intervene. But most importantly,

doing your colleague the kindness of having this conversation before you report her, I think that'll make you feel a lot less guilty, knowing that you've really given her a fair shot to address this on her own. And since your supervisor is already looking into it, I would work with them. And honestly, I wouldn't feel overly conflicted about it. You said you love your clients, your role in people's lives, and that role confers a great responsibility. And one way that you fulfill that responsibility

is by protecting clients from an unstable or ineffective counter. not because she's some kind of monster, but because she's just not currently capable of helping the people who need her. And the same principle applies in any profession, but all the more so in a profession that explicitly is about helping people at their most vulnerable, especially people as deserving of help as military families. And if you need some extra guidance here, Dr. Margolis also mentioned that you could call your local licensing board or your liability insurance and get an ethical consultation on what to do. Or, if your agency has an in-house ethics board,

you can talk to them about your situation without giving any identifying information and ask them what they recommend. Yep, that's what they're there for. But I got to say, Jordan, you know, I'm hearing everything you're saying and I agree, but part of what makes this decision so hard is that her colleague had a medical issue

that led to this impairment. I mean, we don't know the full story, but I'm wondering if maybe she had a stroke that could have caused memory problems or, I mean, who knows? She could have been in a car accident. hit her head, now she can't concentrate. Could be any number of things.

But that's a very different story from, you know, another type of social worker who's, who knows, like stumbling into their office drunk or going off their psychiatric meds or something like that. And maybe that's why she feels so guilty because this colleague of hers just had a freak health issue that really wasn't her fault and now she might be punished for it. Yeah, that's a really fair point. It is a different situation. But I would still argue that if the result is the same, if she's truly unable to care for

her clients. Does it matter if it's her fault or not? Either way, she's dropping the ball and compromising people's lives. Well, yeah, that is also a fair point. But it might change the degree of compassion or the amount of latitude that they should give this person before they actually report. I guess what I'm saying is it's a little ambiguous. And actually, the NASW Code of Ethics, it seems to take this into account because there's a section where it says that ethical decision making, and I'm quoting them here, is a process. In situations where conflicting obligations arise, like this one, social workers may be faced with complex ethical dilemmas that have no simple answers. And it goes on to say that social workers' decisions and the actions they take should be consistent with the spirit, as well as the letter of the code.

So even in the freaking code of ethics, it's saying there isn't one right answer for a situation like this. Yeah, nice. It's like a cop out written right in there. Like, hey, all that stuff we just said about ethics. And maybe none of it applies. That's great. Kind of. I mean, if you view this as a complex ethical dilemma where she's having to weigh her co-worker's health challenges against her patient's needs, then yeah, her choice really isn't as clear cut as the code might seem, although my stance, and I think your stance, Jordan, is that the patients, I mean, ultimately, they have to come first. Anyway, all the more reason to get the ethical consultations that you need to make the right call. Dr. Margulis had one last insight, which I thought was just dead on. She pointed out that you seem

very focused on whether you should get involved in the situation at all, which is interesting, because you also said how much you care about your patients, how much you care about your colleagues. And I'm wondering, is it because owning this decision is a little intimidating? Is it because you're so empathic that you don't want to hurt anybody? Or is it just that, you know, maybe you're a little bit of a people pleaser, which would make a lot of sense, given your profession, you want to help people. If so, if any of these things applies, I would explore that maybe in your own therapy and see how any avoidant or people pleasing impulses might be playing out in your life.

As Dr. Margolis put it, that might help you look at a any barriers that might be in the way of you providing care to people and also managing difficult situations like this in the future. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. And that might be the real lesson here, what this situation is revealing about her as a person. But in my book, if clients are truly being compromised by a social worker, that person shouldn't be providing care, at least not right now. And it's up to everyone in the agency, especially management, to uphold the standards of the profession. I know it sucks, but that's the reality. I wouldn't tiptoe around a surgeon who couldn't remember how to perform a procedure, right?

So I'm not sure why we should tiptoe around a social worker who's actually just mistreating her clients. I know you'll make the right call here with the right guidance. Good luck. You can reach us Friday atjordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. And if you can include the state and country you live in, that'll help us give you more detailed advice.

If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on stuff like life, love, work, what to do if you find out your boyfriend is cheating on you because he's bisexual? Still letting that one rumble around in my head from last week, Gabe. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday atjordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm 29, and after struggling for all of my 20s, I finally feel like I've made it. In the span of 18 months, I've accomplished virtually all. of my big life goals, finding a life partner, becoming HR manager at a large construction company, without a college degree, by the way, having my first child, building my dream home, and even picking up a puppy I always wanted. My issue is that I can't seem to turn off the need to acquire things. Just about anything that exists on a shelf in a store or an online warehouse is fair game. I spend a lot of my evenings before coming home running errands for things I don't necessarily want, but I just can't seem to push the off button.

I can walk into a department store for cat litter and leave with $150 worth of kids' clothes, toiletries, home improvements, or whatever the flavor the day is. I now avoid grabbing carts. I leave my credit cards in inconvenient places and I've removed the shopping apps off of my phone, but that's only partially curved this impulse.

This behavior has caused me to make bad decisions with my credit cards and then get small debt consolidation loans to try and fix it. It's affecting my mental health as well. I get anxious and panicky several times a week that somebody will discover how irresponsible I am or that the bills will become too overwhelming. My partner doesn't have much interest in our finances. Our couples therapist is more focused on our communication skills and doesn't take the bait to explore this topic. And my family can't or just won't empathize.

And most people outside of my inner circle, they're more interested in chastising me than helping me. Aside from getting my own individual therapist, which I plan to do when I can afford it, Do you have any suggestions on how to get my sticky fingers off of my credit cards before catastrophe strikes? Signed, the overwhelmed Aneo Maniac. Aniomaniac. What is that? What is that? I've never heard that word in my life. Yeah, it's a good one, right? It basically just means somebody who's obsessed or has like an uncontrollable urge to buy things. It's like a polite term for shopping addiction. Yeah, okay, fair. Well, first of all, congrats on all of this growth in the last year and a half.

That is a remarkable turnaround. The fact that you've been able to achieve all of this, despite having what sounds like a pretty gnarly compulsion to spend, that's super impressive. And I really appreciate how open you're being about all this, so let's get into it. So it's interesting. You're asking how to get your sticky fingers off your credit cards

before catastrophe strikes. But I think you need to rewind the tape even more to the roots of this compulsion to shop so much. It sounds to me like you're in the grip of a real shopping, addiction. Although there's debate out there about whether compulsive spending is technically an addiction, a lot of the symptoms, difficulty resisting the impulse to buy something, that feeling of euphoria when you do, feeling shame and remorse afterwards, creating financial problems for yourself, that to me sounds a lot like any other addiction. And if this is an addiction,

then you're going to have to approach it like one. And that means figuring out how this obsession with shopping is operating in your life. Just like drinking excessively or doing drugs, are staying up all night playing Fortnite, the addiction isn't really the problem. It's your solution to the problem. So the real question is, what's the problem? What are you aware of feeling right before you hit Target on the way home?

What do you stop feeling when you're browsing the toiletries aisle and loading up your cart with your 18th bottle of friggin' bird's bees baby shampoo? Then, when you get home and unpack everything, what feelings start to creep in again? If it's me, I would really take inventory of those feelings.

before you shop. That's the first step. Because if you can learn how to understand those feelings better, figure out where they're coming from, why they're so unpleasant, find a healthier and more productive way to channel them, then I think you'll start to get a handle on this compulsion. And it's interesting. There's this famous compulsive shopping researcher. Yes, that's the thing. His name is Dr. Donald Black. He calls this pre-purchase tension or anxiety. He also says that almost two-thirds of all compulsive spenders struggle with depression or anxiety. But really, any uncomfortable feeling can drive someone to spend compulsively. Pain, loneliness, boredom, fear, anger. It's actually the inability to tolerate these negative feelings that drives people to spend.

Or just a need to fill some kind of inner void, you know, the feeling of emptiness inside that you think you can't fill anywhere else. But there's also an element of compulsive shopping that's purely chemical. This other researcher, Dr. Ruth Engz, she says that some people develop shopping addictions because they essentially get addicted to how their brain feels while acquiring stuff. Every time they drop something in the basket, their brain releases endorphins and dopamine, and over time, those feelings become addictive, and the behavior gets reinforced. Yeah, that pretty much describes everybody including me on Amazon, Jordan. So I think that explains why we're all on Amazon.com until 1130 p.m. every night. So given that, besides going to therapy,

what can you do to fix this? Well, Jordan already touched on the most important thing, which is really getting a handle on the feelings that are driving the spending, and that the spending is also functioning to kind of tamp down. Ideally, you can do that with a therapist, but if you just can't get there right now, then you can explore this on your own as well. I would open up to your partner about this, tell them you need help, just need to talk about it. Go for a walk with a friend, talk to them about it. Maybe you can journal about it. Whatever you do, I would look at the experiences that you associate with shopping and try to go as far back in your life as you can. And look, if you're feeling frustrated that your couples therapist is just not addressing this topic,

which, by the way, Jordan, that seems a bit weird to me just because money is such an important part of any relationship. It's like, why would we be dancing around that in couples therapy? But whatever, we'll put that to the side. If you're frustrated about that, then I would just speak up. I would tell your counselor, look, I want to talk about this. I have a problem with shopping. I think I have a problem with money.

It's affecting my relationship. This is a priority for me. Can we talk about it? And look, the next time you find yourself swinging by, you know, pottery barn to check, out that $1,800 Shays Long, you've had your eye on. I would stop, like, Shays Long. No. Shes Lounge. What are you talking about? Long. It's a lounge. Wait, am I wrong about this? You're a writer. This is terrifying because I've never gotten this right in my life, if you're correct here. I'm pretty sure that it's Shays Long. That is terrifying. We have to get to the bottom of this right now.

Okay. Quick Goose. I know it's Shes. Shes. Yeah. That's L-O-U-N-N. GE is how this is spelled literally like everywhere on the internet. Am I going crazy right now? What is happening? Yeah, no, I just, yeah, just Googled it. It's Shays Long, actually, but I think because it sounds so weird in English, a lot of Americans say Shays Lounge and that's just become the accepted use. Oh, man. It's actually, it's Shays Long, yeah, long chair. Yeah, my entire world is upside down, but now I know. And then I'm going to, I'm going to do it right now and someone's going to be like, do you mean Shes Lounge, moron? And I'm going to, we're going to have this conversation all over again, except I'm going to be on your side. Maybe they call it Shea's Long because that makes it sound like it's worth $1,800.

There you go. That's for sure. Whereas like a chaise lounge should be much. Anything with a French name is going to be overpriced. Exactly. Anyway, next time you find yourself at some fancy furniture store and you're checking out some expensive piece of furniture that you had your eye on, I would stop, like physically stop in the store and take stock of what you are feeling in that moment. Is it anxiety? Is it anger? Is it loneliness? Bortem. Maybe a loss of control. Whatever it is, locate the feeling, name it, try to trace it back to its source, and then ask yourself if buying another object is really going to fix that feeling, or if it's just going to put a Band-Aid on it for a few hours. And then over time, hopefully, you start to replace the urge to shop with these other healthier

hobbies. Maybe the next time you feel the urge to log on to Amazon again after work, you promise yourself, no, I'm going to go for a run first, you know? I'm going to run first and then I'm going to go to Amazon, see how I feel then. I wouldn't be surprised, Jordan, if some of this pre-purchase tension, I think it was the word used, if that eases up, when this guy channels it into a more productive activity. Eventually, I do think you will start to rewire the reward system in your brain. You might just need to replace one addiction with a better one. And sure, canceling your credit cards or maybe giving them to your partner,

that might be a good stopgap in the meantime. But I wouldn't settle for that solution. That's kind of like baby-proofing the cabinets, right? We've got to like solve the deeper issue here. So get to the bottom of it. Make it a priority. Yep. Start digging, my friend.

Find the roots of this thing. You have a partner, a family, a great career, a very full. life, you have a lot of great reasons to be financially sound, and you've got this. Gabe, I'm just imagining somebody picking up baby clothes at Target and then like putting them back on the shelf and running around the target three or four times and then going back in like, yeah, I still want these. Sure, why not? Do some burpees in the parking lot. Yeah, just go, yeah, get your sweat on in the garden section and then go back. Like, yep, nope, I still want footsy PJs for the kid. By the way, if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a way to tell your friends about the show, we've got the episode starter packs,

These are collections of your favorite episodes organized by popular topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start to get started. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. After a crazy couple years, I recently decided to learn some new skills and transition into the tech world. To start this career switch, I got back on LinkedIn, and I noticed that some people list their pronouns underneath their names.

I'm on board with people showing them, and I make the effort to use the right ones for different people, but since I'm fine with the pronouns that would be assumed for me, I just don't feel the need to list them personally. My question is, how would putting pronouns on my social media be perceived by others? Does using pronouns help indicate something culturally? Would it help my online presence to show pronouns? I live in a pretty conservative state, Indiana, but my own suburb is kind of purple. When I did phone banking for Democratic candidates, other people had pronouns in their Zoom window. On the flip side, plenty of people are still very Republican in the area. and could maybe think of me negatively for listing my pronouns, even if it's on a subconscious level.

So what would you do? Signed, the purple pronoun proponent. Well, this is an interesting question. We've actually been getting it a lot lately, and we're at an interesting moment in the culture where the whole listing your pronouns thing is helping people communicate how they want to be referred to, but it's also signaling support for a larger movement, and that comes with its own associations, positive or negative, depending on your perspective. I generally think that people listing their pronouns, I mean, it's fine.

Sometimes it's helpful. People's intentions are usually good. And if a few people get worked up about it, it's like calm down. We're just making things easier for some folks. At the same time, the fact that listing your pronouns could either work for or against you, depending on who your audience is,

that does worry me a little bit, just that this little act has become so politicized. And also, the fact that you're trying to guess how people will perceive you, based on this one little choice, it just says a lot about where we are right now. I haven't been in a corporate environment for years. I don't even think about this kind of thing at all. So we wanted to chat with an expert about your situation.

So we ran this by Michelle Laterman. Michelle is a top-notch executive coach. She's also the author of The Connectors Advantage. So she really knows her stuff when it comes to navigating key decisions in your career. And it's interesting. Michelle told us that she's actually asked herself this exact same question. In the past, she thought that she didn't have to list her pronouns because not listing them is basically the norm. It's the default.

And then one day a colleague of hers pointed out that if everybody puts their pronouns, then that's the norm. And it doesn't highlight those people and make them feel different. So it led Michelle to start including her pronouns. Okay, that's Michelle. That's her choice. You might go a different way. And that's okay. Michelle said that this is really about your personal brand and how you want to be perceived.

So if you're concerned that your brand is, let's assume, more inclusive or whatever, and you think that that's going to prevent you from being accepted or getting work with certain types of people, then you have to make a choice as to which one is more important, expressing your philosophy or appealing to these employers. So in Michelle's view, the question isn't how you think you'll be perceived. It's really, how do you want to be perceived? If you understand that listing your pronouns will probably signal that you're a progress. inclusive, whatever, and you're okay with that, then go for it. If not, then you might want to reconsider. We know where your heart is, but whether you're willing to risk alienating people and losing out on job offers for these beliefs, that's the potential cost that you're going to have to accept. That's such a shitty cost to accept. It sucks that she has to even think about that, but yes, Jordan, that is exactly the risk. It's a hard call to make, though, because she lives in a purple suburb, so this really could go either way. I'm listening to her letter and I want to say,

you know, yes, absolutely, stand by your principles, you want to be an ally, you know, screw anyone who will hold that against you. But I also really want her to land this job. Like, she obviously wants to make the transition into tech. So I do agree with Michelle, but there's another part of me that feels like maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing if she skipped the pronouns just while she's interviewing so that she doesn't avoid alienating people who would get super worked up about this, maybe hold it against her, and then land a couple offers. And then once she's inside one of these companies, she can add her pronouns to her Zoom window and anybody who gets annoyed by that kind of thing will just have to deal, basically, because it sounds like her first priority is to transition into

the tech world. Her second priority is to really, you know, change hearts and minds. But also, Jordan, again, I'm torn because that might be compromising her integrity and maybe even perpetuating the exact intolerance that she's fighting against. So honestly, I don't know, that's a tough one. Yeah, it's really tricky. I feel old when it comes to this. This is sort of my boomer stuff because I'm like, do we really really? need to do this, but also I understand points on both sides. I think what you're saying is that it's all about her beliefs, but it's also about balancing those with her very real needs, like getting a job that she really wants. And to be fair, I don't think she's trying to like become the social media

manager for a company that manufactures neo-Nazi t-shirts, and she needs to pretend to be a completely different person to just get a paycheck from some maniacs. Good point. The company she's applying to, they're probably made up of people of all stripes. Most of them. Most of them, are probably decent people, and she's just trying to get along with as many of them as possible while also doing what she thinks is right. So, honestly, I don't think you can necessarily go wrong. You're probably going to alienate fewer people than you think, but you also might not change as many people's minds as you hope. I would do what honors your beliefs up until the point it seriously compromises your career and figure out what matters to you more right now,

landing a job or waving the flag, whatever the flag is. That'll help you make the right decision for yourself. We're also going to link to Michelle Laterman's book, The Connectors Advantage in the show notes. It's a terrific book. I highly recommend checking it out and good luck. Man, Gabe, I do not envy people seeking jobs in this political climate. I don't do the pronoun thing like I mentioned, but I also, I've put like zero thought into it, and I'd kind of like to keep it that way for now, honestly. This seems like such a trivial thing to get hung up on, but it's a very real consistent. right now, like the right or wrong virtue signals can screw you. This whole space has just become a minefield. You know, it'll make you feel better if you don't get one of those jobs. The products and

services that support this show. We'll be right back. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 29 years old. I'm running my own business, and I've had a girlfriend for over six years now. We both own an investment property together, and everything is stable. The thing is, both of us also still live at home with our parents. We have great relationships with them. My parents are Greek. Hers are Filipino. So this is all quite culturally normal for both sets of parents. We have zero pressure to move out at all. The thing is, most of my friends are moving out now, and that does weigh on my mind. Part of the reason we're both still at home is so we can build

a lot of capital to keep investing in our business and our future home. But as I approach my 30s, I feel a social expectation for us to move out. So what should I do? Signed, sweating what they'll say while I build my 401k. Well, first of all, congrats on finding a great partner and building up this wealth at such a young age. That is exciting. It's also cool that you both have such strong relationships

with your parents. I think that's very rare. It must be nice for pretty much everyone involved. You've had to pay a price for building up these assets, which is living at home, but it sounds like that isn't really much of a price for you. You don't mind living at home. You like your parents.

It doesn't sound like it's gotten in the way of your relationship very much, so the opportunity costs are pretty low, maybe nil. Given all of that, I'm a little surprised by your question. You're saying that you feel this expectation to move out because your friends are getting their own places, but what do you want? What matters to you? If you're looking at your friends getting their own apartments and going, wow, is there something wrong with me? Do I need to be more like them to be happy? Am I missing something? Then I would not buy into those thoughts too much. then you're just wanting something because the people around you want it, which is a classic mistake and a recipe for unhappiness. And keep in mind that those friends are embracing their

own opportunity costs. They might be living on their own, but they're not saving the money that you are to invest in their futures, so there's no perfect scenario. But if you're watching your friends become more independent and you're realizing that you actually want that for yourself, maybe you're discovering that living with your parents at this age isn't the healthiest thing for you and your girlfriend, or maybe you want some more freedom to be closer with your girlfriend, then I do think that's worth exploring. Again, nothing in your letter gives me the sense that living with your parents is super weird or dysfunctional, and a lot of this is cultural. In some cultures, people live with their parents well into adulthood, sometimes

until they get married. So that's the norm. So if this works for all of you guys and it's advancing your goals, and great. But I will say that in my experience, and I'm clearly biased as a guy who grew up in the States with American parents, being in a relationship and living with your parents at age 29, that has got to take some kind of toll. It might not be straight up toxic or anything like that, but it might chip at your sense of independence, your privacy, certainly. I just don't know if you can be fully in an adult romantic relationship when you're sharing a wall with mommy and daddy and arguing over who finished the Quaker Roads in the morning. If there's a healthy separation that needs to occur between you guys and your parents, and there always is,

then I would start thinking about what your game plan is. So bottom line, I wouldn't feel pressure to move out just because your life looks different from other people's, especially if this is helping you guys become financially independent and your parents are cool with it. But I also wouldn't stick around for another decade if it's holding you back from creating your own identity outside of them. You've already accomplished way more than most 29-year-olds. Your parents have played a big role in that, that's generous of them. You might not need to live under their roof till you're 38 to achieve everything you want to achieve. You could get a small apartment and keep your overhead down so you and your girlfriend can buy your next property. Or you can move out and work really hard

on your business to give yourselves even more capital. But this really just comes down to your priorities. Maybe you're willing to sacrifice your autonomy if it means getting a rental property that'll allow you and your girlfriend to pay for your kids' college tuition in 20 years and Hey, fair enough. Just keep balancing this living arrangement with all of your other needs and get clear on which opportunity costs you're willing to accept. That's all that really matters. Not how your friends perceive you now that they live in a five-story walk-up

and pay their own spectrum bill while they ignore their nest eggs. And great job on thinking so far ahead. I think that's awesome. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Go back and check out Andrew Gold and Gary Vaynerchuk if you haven't yet. If you want to know how I managed to book all of these great guests here on the show, it's about systems, software, and tiny habits.

I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty over in our six-minute networking course, and that course is free. It's over on the think-ific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. in. You can find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. I'm a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Ditto Michelle Laterman. Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And you should know that anyway.

Remember, we rise by lifting others, so share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode with a retired astronaut Chris Hadfield. I watched the first two people walk on the moon, and I thought, wow, I'm going to grow up to be something. Why don't I grow up to be that? That's the coolest thing ever. It is purely the direct results of all of those little minute-by-minute decisions that I made since starting when I was a kid just turning 10.

When I got the telephone call asking if I would like to be an astronaut, I was at the top of, I was at the top of, my profession. I was the top test pilot in the U.S. Navy as a Canadian. And then to be selected as an astronaut, suddenly I'm a guy who knows nothing. I sit in my office and I'm like, I'm a complete imposter. I have zero skills right now. Whenever anybody has offered to teach me something for free, I've always taken them up on it. How are you getting ready for the major events in your life, the things that matter to you, the things that have consequence? Are you just sort of waving your hands they go, oh, it probably turned out okay, or are you actually using the time available to get ready for it. Maybe it will turn out okay.

But if the stakes are high, to me, that's just not a gamble I willingly take. If at some point in life you think you know everything you need to know, then you're just in the process of diet. What astronauts do for a living is visualize failure, figuring out the next thing that's going to kill you, and then practice it over and over and over again until we can beat that thing. We know how to deal with it. then you do a much better job in a more calm and comfortable way of doing it as well. You don't miss it. You're not overwhelmed by it.

It's something you can do while thinking of something else. You notice how beautiful it is, how magnificent it is, how much fun it is. You're not just completely overwhelmed by the demands of the moment. For more on how Commander Chris Hadfield managed to stay focused on his dream, starting at age nine, to become the first Canadian to walk in space, check out episode 408 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. recently they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think the benefits of laughter why sports fans get so invested and what makes people like you or not the through line is always the same smart ideas you can actually use in real life something you should know has been featured in apple's shows we love and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting so if you want another show that scratches that i want to understand how people in the world really work itch search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts look for the bright yellow light bulb and start Start listening. You can thank me later.