The Jordan Harbinger Show - 611: Reid Hoffman | Surprising Entrepreneurial Truths

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

Reid Hoffman (@reidhoffman) is a co-founder of LinkedIn, investor at Greylock Partners, host of the podcast Masters of Scale, and co-author of Masters of Scale: Surprising Truths from the World's Most Successful Entrepreneurs. What We Discuss with Reid Hoffman: What Reid means when he calls himself a "six-person-or-less extrovert." Why fostering diversity is important for any company that wants to be relevant tomorrow. How to identify the five kinds of "no" and what they can each teach you. Why unanimous consent in a pitch meeting is a concerning sign. The best and worst ways to pitch ideas to venture capitalists. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/611 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Miss our conversation with comedian, actor, and director Bob Saget? Catch up with episode 372: Bob Saget | How Comedy Continually Changes His Life here. Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Presuming that everything's going to be staying year after year after year, you just have to look around to know that that's a mistake. And networks are not just, you know, resilience making, but they're also amplifying. You can learn things. Like, there's this great other opportunity that I would just know about if I had some allies out there.

Now, a lot of the reason why people frequently say don't network is because it sounds like you're trying to use people. It's like, hi, my name's Reed. Can I have your business card? And you're like, no, no, no. Treat it as a partnership. Treat it as a dance. It's treated as something where we help each other.

We're human beings. We're doing this journey together. It doesn't have that icky feel that people who describe themselves as networkers frequently have. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills

of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional war correspondent, arms dealer, or tech mogul. Each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works

and become a better critical thinker. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and of course I love it when you do that, our episode starter packs are the best way to go about it. These are collections of top episodes organized by topic. We even have them in Spotify playlists. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Like I said, you can find them in Spotify or just go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash start to get started or to help somebody else gets started. Today, Reid Hoffman, founder of LinkedIn, and kind of a big deal venture capitalist here in Silicon Valley. He's back on the show. We'll discuss how to find and vet ideas that are actually good and learn some mental models to parse good and useful feedback

from unhelpful feedback on those same ideas. Also, the different types of knows when it comes to business ideas, raising funds and other types of rejection and what those nose mean. Lots here, even if you're not an entrepreneur or a business owner, Reed is always just such a clear and practical thinker, and I think you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did. By the way, all these guests that you hear on the show are booked because my network game is quite strong, and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free, because that is probably the most useful life skill I have in my whole repertoire, by the way. I want to teach it to everybody who will listen. Our free course is at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. It's for

business. It's for personal reasons. The course is really about improving your network and connection skills and inspiring others to develop a personal and professional relationship with it'll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker. That's at jordanharbinger.com slash course. And most of the guests you hear on the show, subscribe and contribute to that same course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Now, here's Reid Hoffman.

I've heard you call yourself a six person or less extrovert. What is that all about? So introvert extrovert is what gives you energy, right? So an introvert is you get some energy about being by yourself, recharging, reading a book. Extrovert is you get energy from other people. I get energy from small group discussions, one-on-one like we're doing now, or up to six people. Once it becomes a cocktail party, I lose energy. It's just like the battery is draining at a super fast rate.

And so the six-person or less extrovert is where you can have one serious, threaded conversation. And around six people is when that starts getting hard. Did you grow up kind of that way, or is this sort of, hey, I realize that nothing good happens when there's a big group of people and I'm just supposed to perform and I'm sick of that crap? I think I mostly grew up that way, but it's partially because I so much like really discovering interesting things from other people that that focused conversation as opposed to, you know, what were you doing yesterday or where did you go out to dinner last night or something?

Yeah, there is something that happens when you have to, and this is going to sound super snobby and I don't mean it that way, but like conversation almost has to be almost at the lowest common denominator. So if you're in a room full of brilliant people, you can have a really big, brilliant discussion up until people can't track what's going on at the other end of the 12-person table. If there's a couple of duds in the room, you know, now it's just you can't really, unless they're nice and quiet and they know when to listen, which I never do. I'm the dud in the room in case anyone's wondering. Then it just ruins the conversation for everyone. That's been my job for 14 years and counting. Which is the reason why, of course, professional conversation is your job.

So that's a little, you know, A2. Yeah, I had to learn it all manually. I read the book and I really enjoyed it. I love it. It's kind of like masters of scale, except it's, well, a lot more focused on specific entrepreneurs or concepts that these people bring up. And some of these concepts I want to take out and then we'll just dissect them. Many investors miss opportunities that are right in front of them, you mentioned. And while some venture capitalists, can we define venture capitalist actually for people that are like, wait, I've heard of this, but I don't know what it is. Venture capitalist is someone who invest, generally speaking at the very early stages of a company, frequently tech, but not only where there's enough risk,

and the company may not work at all. Okay. So it's like the moonshot guys and gals for that matter. Yes. So while some venture capitalists might learn and investigate, many people cannot or will not understand a product or need that stands from an unfamiliar life experience. And this is very insightful because Silicon Valley has a lot of diversity,

but it really does show in what gets invested in where you go, okay, this was like a group of guys who are probably from the same. same background as me, same ethnicity as me, or very similar, certainly same socioeconomic status for most of their lives until they struck whatever kind of riches they did with their startups. And then it's like, a lot of these products kind of look the same, feel the same, but the opportunity lies elsewhere, or at least some of the opportunity lies elsewhere. Yeah, I think one of the things that's important is entrepreneurs, call it predictive anthropologists, which is how could the world be, where is the world moving to, where is the market moving to,

where consumers moving to, and then try to get there first because the current products and services are around the current world. And, you know, sometimes it's easy, cheaper, faster, et cetera, et cetera. But frequently it's a, no, no, we're reimagining the world. And to do that, actually having a breadth of perspective is extremely helpful. Now, one of the mistakes frequently people say is, oh, well, women entrepreneurs and women products should be invested by women VCs and men, blah, blah, blah. And actually, in the fact, the case is you want a team, you want a diversity effort. And so it's actually, in fact, not siloed that way. There is ways where you have a more natural inclination if you grew up playing video games that you know more about video games,

but also that if you bring the team together, you get a much stronger thing. And that's part of the reason why the diversity perspectives and building teams and investing. Why do people think that female founders need to be invested in by female VCs? That almost seems like the opposite of diversity in some ways. I mean, yes, you get diverse perspectives, but diversity means, well, diverse, right? So what's going on there? Well, it's not coherent as that. Oh, this is a product for women, so a woman should be making a decision to invest. Like, you hear that from a, not all, but a bunch of foolish VCs. Yeah. And you're like, actually, in fact, no, partnering on these things is the thing that really works in all directions. That's the

reason why I bring that up as a point, because, for example, when I interviewed Guineath Paltrow and Jessica Alba on Masters of Scale, they were like, yeah, the male VCs we were talking to were saying, oh, there's no market or we don't get it, and you should talk to someone else. Well, actually, in fact, that's the whole point about being a good investor is do your homework, figure out these massive markets, and engage in them in partnership. It sort of baffles me as, look, I only vest in index funds primarily, but I'm on some boards and things like that or advisor positions. I don't need to know what skin cream is going to feel like necessarily if Guadeth Paltrow or

Jessica Albar, like, this is good. You know, like they've got an audience and their audience. their following is going to tell them, hey, you know what, this smells bad, and they'll iterate on it. These are smart people that have a really good fan base. It seems so obvious, but then again, maybe when you're like, here's $100 million, you think about it more, and maybe you talk yourself out of some of these investments. Yeah, and foolishly, because there's this broad range. You know, it isn't all video games or enterprise software, very valuable areas, but there's this whole wide range. And I think it's an important thing that we're doing, both with the podcast and

obviously with the book. You mentioned that there are different types of noes, that in entrepreneurs, founders, people who are looking for investment or even advice come to, the substantial no versus the skeptical no versus the lazy no. Can we go through these? Because I'd never heard this and I thought, wow, I've gotten all of these and a lot of them, a lot of different ones. The book, obviously, part of the reason we open a chapter that way is because the key thing is to learn from knows. Now, the broad principle is, can you learn from this no or not? So it's like a lazy no, I'm not really paying attention, I'm just kind of going on now and no, then disengage as vast as possible, go elsewhere, you're not going to learn anything, you're not going to get anywhere. But like, for

example, when you get a squirmie no, it's like, well, no, but then they're actually engaging. You can possibly get a discussion and learn some about it. Part of investing is to be contrarian but right. Part of that, like, for example, when we look at it as a partnership at Greylock, we actually prefer investments where half the partnership goes, ooh, that's a great idea, and half the partnerships goes, oh, that's a bad idea. Because, that's where you get the amazing breakthrough ideas. And the squirmie know could also be a reflection of that. The, well, God, I'm not sure. I don't see it because if it's the case and you do have a good idea that you can execute there, the likelihood is you'll have much less competition. And so that's what you're essentially doing and engaging in the

nose to learn and to iterate. And part of it also goes with the advice to entrepreneurs of don't say, hey, what do you think of my product? I got this great new thing. It's a hat you wear to parties. And you go, what do you think? People say, oh, you know, I, you need reassurance. I'm going to tell you it's great. And actually, in fact, what you want to say, what's wrong with it? What can I improve? What would get break? Because then you may learn something, just as you may learn something from the know, that helps you be better. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is probably not something that comes up a lot when you're talking with professional investors. But if you're just starting with your idea and you say, it's a video service, but it's only for people that speak Hindi and live in the United States,

your friends might say, I don't really understand this, or they might say, yeah, that's great. Who doesn't love Hindi movies, except I don't speak Hindi. But then if you're talking to an investor, they might say, wow, how many Hindi people live in this particular area? Okay, a ton, good market, or your movies are only in Tamil. Maybe you should focus on a different region or something along these lines. This makes sense. I think a lot of us, even when we are asking for advice, we're not really asking for advice. We're asking for somebody to pat us on the back and tell us it's going to be okay. Yeah, which is completely useless to you as an honest. entrepreneur. That's why seek knows, learn from the knows, seek challenges, learn from the challenges.

So lazy no, disregard, move on. Skeptical, no, or is skeptical and squirmie know the same thing? The versions are the same thing. It's a question of how you engage. Like, I prefer the squirmie know because it's kind of like I'm maybe yes, maybe no, and I'm trying to figure out, whereas a skeptical no depends on how much the person's engaging, right? Because a skeptical knows kind of also can be on the lazy know, which is, ah, no, I'm paying attention. You know, oh, you got this idea for a new search engine. Search engines don't make any money. I'm not interested.

Because that, by the way, was back when Google was founded, people thought search engines, the business model for online was advertising of keeping people on your site, and search engines sent people off your site. It was not a very good business. The engaging with it is far more important. Yeah, it makes sense. It's funny to think, because I remember using Google in, I don't know,

in 1999 or whenever it started to become sort of more popular for dorks like me who had internet in 1999. And I thought, this is the most useful thing in the world that I can think of right now. And I didn't understand how they made money, but maybe they also didn't understand how they were going to make money. And then someone was like, what if we put ads on the site and dot, dot, dot, everyone there has billions of dollars and doesn't know, like, everyone who is there in 99 is like flying around in their own jet.

So that worked. But by the way, this is the classic entrepreneur thing. They thought they were going to sell search enterprises. That actually didn't work. their backup plan was to double click and put double click, and then the double click banner market fell out. So they looked around and they saw Overture and they said, oh, well, this AdWord thing, maybe that would work.

And then, of course, a rocket chip going out of the galaxy would be an understatement. That's how they discovered it. Yeah, I forgot about the banner ad era where that was a thing. Yes. That was a hot minute where you couldn't get away from those and they were like the most effective thing ever. And now I've literally, maybe I see one every day and I ignore it and I don't even know it's there or they're just not anywhere anymore. I think they're gone now. They're not very effective.

And the substantial no is what? No, because here are so many problems with your idea that it's impossible or infeasible. Yep. And that's a good thing to listen very closely to. Like, usually from a viewpoint of expertise, could be expertise on your business, could be go to market, could be product. And you want to think through that and think, what do I know that this expert doesn't know? And maybe I need to change. Maybe I need to pivot. Maybe I need to pivot. Maybe I need to pivot, depending. And it isn't that you absolutely need to pivot, but you should have a very active theory about how you're integrating the snow and why you have a belief in the world that's different than the expert engagement that you're getting. You mentioned unanimous consent. I don't think you phrased

it this way, but you said when somebody brings an idea to Greylock and everyone in the room is like, that's amazing, then you take a pause and go, this isn't good. Why? There should be obvious flaws in every idea. Is that what you mean? We invest sometimes when we have unanimous or always nervous about it because we're worried either A, we're missing what the challenges are or B, everyone thinks this is obvious. And so there's just going to be like a thousand companies funded in the same way. The mixed is good because we tend to think that that will be fewer competitors and that if it actually does establish as a new category, say like Airbnb, then you actually have something huge, right? We pay a lot of attention when we have some people going,

oh, this is incredible, this is really important. And other people going, it's not such a good idea. Like who's going to run out their basement or their futon and eat cereal and then somebody else goes, no, you don't understand. Now we have as many hotel rooms as we have houses on planet Earth. That's what this means. Yeah. Yeah. For example, on this specific one, the reason I'm at Greylock is David Z, who was my most valued board member at LinkedIn, brought me there. And when we were talking at the partnership table about Airbnb, David looked, turned to me and said, look, every VC needs to have a deal they can fail on. Airbnb can be yours, right? So that's okay. Now, to David's credit, he then later, like six months, data hadn't changed. You came back to this. You were totally right. I was wrong. What did you see that I didn't see? And I was like, well, you were right about all the risks.

You were right about the regulatory risk. You're right about the adoption risk, all that. But if we got through those risks, it's going to be huge. Yeah. And as it turned out. Yeah. The Airbnb is something that I saw when I was younger and I thought, I'm 100% going to use this for everything because I was doing a lot of couch surfing from couchsurfing.

that original website. And I was like, ah, it's kind of unreliable because there's no money exchanged. But I will gladly go to Minsk Belarus and be like, yeah, here's 50 bucks. Now I don't have to stay at some crazy, like, roach-infested sort of kami hotel. And I've got somebody who's going to maybe show me around or at least be mildly interested that I'm there and I'll feel safer. So that for me is a 20-something was like, this is the greatest invention that anybody has ever had. And I still prefer to stay in hotels now that I'm 40 and have kids, but not because I don't like staying in someone's house, but mostly because I don't want my kids screaming and crying in somebody else's house. It's a completely different game now. Yep. The biggest ideas are often

contrarian. You mentioned Peloton in the book. Peloton to me, it seems like, hey, we've had exercise bikes since 1968 or something like that. Why is this a contrarian idea? This was probably why a lot of people missed out on it as well, right? Well, yeah, it was contrarian because people thought, oh, look, we had exercises bikes. Okay, so you have an exercise bike with some content or something else, and why is that significant? And the actual answer is various ways of connecting the world of bits and atoms becomes very useful. And that part of what Pelham did was create a loop that made it more likely to use, more likely to engage, you know, having group competitions, cause a lot more more engagement, cause or usage, change it to a subscription model because you're subscribing the online

service. The subscription model is better than a sell a piece of good service. So all of those things. But, you know, you had to go through a thousand nose before you got through the one yes that allowed him to begin to develop the business. It's just amazing to see. You know, I like working out in my garage. I'm not a Peloton guy. My wife couldn't wait to get hers. It was back ordered. The pandemic hit made it a million times worse.

She gets this thing and I'm like, it's an exercise bike with an iPad strapped to it. What's the big deal? And then I start using it and I go, I'm going to beat that guy tomorrow. Oh, this is the thing. Now it's gamified. My competitive side comes out. The trainers are funny. Now it all makes sense. It's not just VR headset jumping up and down in my living room. Like,

this is a real trainer, real spin class. Exactly right. Except it doesn't smell. Well, it does, but it's just me. It's not everybody else. It doesn't smell of other people. Right. Yeah, I'm fine. I can live with that part. So these ideas that you find, we mentioned this a couple years ago when I was in your office, when we were allowed to do those things. And I said, what are some good ways to bring ideas that you have that you think are good to venture capitalists? And we probably came through one or two, and I'd love to hear more of those. And then I'm going to ask you what the worst ways are, because I remember some of them being kind of scary. And I assume that those are still happening. So let's talk about the good ways to bring an idea to Reid Hoffman. So the great

ways are get an introduction from a trusted connection, who doesn't have to necessarily say your idea is the best thing since chocolate, but is to say, hey, this person's really good, they're committed, it's interesting, you know, et cetera. That's among the best. You know, Others can be clearly playing in a kind of an area that I'm involved in. It could be artificial intelligence, cryptocurrency, with a very clearly kind of like, what's the hook of the idea in short communication? Most of the cold call stuff I get is, would you like to invest in the best new business that's going to grow at a thousand percent per year? Reply to me. And I was like, that kind of sounds a lot like a, you know, Nigerian, you know, funding email. It doesn't really

give any information and isn't very confidence inspiring. Now, the terrible ones, people cold email all the time, usually with long and they're describing what they think are the great attributes to their business. Or they'll say, you know, I've heard that you like investing in dog food. So here's my dog food business. And I'm like, don't invest in dog food businesses. I'm a technology investor. And again, that's again, uncombelling. Now, probably the worst that it's been is like, this is before I moved away to a house that's more anonymous and discreet. A secure location. A secure location. A secure location, you know, witness protection program.

Yeah. Entrepreneurs used to come by and like leave business plans on the window of my car. Right. Or knock up my neighbor's doors and say, what's he like to pitch? And you're like, well, certainly not creep fill. That doesn't really help. And I get, you know, the entrepreneurs tell themselves that a hustle is very important and a hustle is very important.

But it's got to be hustle as partnership, not hustle as target. I will never leave you alone. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Those are in the category of the, please know. Yeah. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Reid Hoffman.

We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to this show and for supporting us, if you've done so already. All those discount codes and deals, we put them all in one place. We recently redid the page. It should work well on your phone. I'd love it if you would take a look and make sure that that's actually the case. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals is where you can find it. Again, all those codes and URLs and discounts all in one place.

please consider supporting those who make this show possible. Now, back to Reed Hoffman. That's interesting that people do that, but I kind of understand it because people get really passionate about ideas. A lot of technology-focused people maybe had their heads in books and don't realize how weird that is. And then there's a lot of people who watched movies a lot growing up and thought, I mean, when I went to law school, I remember talking to the admissions officers.

And I said, so how many videotapes are you getting now that legally blonde came out? Reese Witherspoon had submitted like a VHS tape and a scented resume or something like that. And she made this crazy video and they're like, we get so many tapes that we wrote on the website. Do not send a videotape. We will not watch it. And people think they're being unique, but really all they're doing is littering in your driveway. Yes, exactly. Actually, it reminded me of the essay application when I went to Stanford from my undergraduate had what's one word that describes you.

And I had thought about putting ters because I thought it was funny. And then I thought, oh, wait a minute, a lot of other people are going to do this. And my freshman advisor ended up being the assistant dean of admission. So I said, how many people put TURS? He's like, 1,200. Think a little bit about the environment you're in. It's not unique. I mean, verbose would have worked, too. But that's probably like a thousand wrote that instead. Yes, exactly. I know you mentioned sort of coming through a warm connection or somebody who knows you already or knows somebody at Greylock. That can be really difficult. And I always recommend people network and dig the well before they get thirsty, so to speak. and you recommend people build their network early, which makes sense because you founded LinkedIn, but I hear people tell me all the time, things like, look, I don't really need to worry about my network at all because I work at a school or I don't plan on leaving my job. I like it here. I know that that's wrong, but what do you think about that? I want to hear your take. So the world changes and you change. This is all things for my first book, The Startup of You, which is presuming that everything's going to be saying year after year after year,

you just have to look around to know that that's a mistake. And networks are not just, you know, resilience making, but they're also amplifying. You can learn things. Like what if, for example, there was this, like I'm working at the school, but there's this great other opportunity that I would just know about if I had some allies out there. Now, a lot of the reason why people frequently say don't network is because it sounds like you're trying to use people. It's like, hi, my name's Reed. Can I have your business card? And you're like, no, no, no, treat it as a partnership, treat it as a dance, treat it as something where we help each other. We're human beings. We're doing this journey together.

And if you do it that way, then it's great. And you're helping each other. And it doesn't have that icky feel that people who describe themselves as networkers frequently have. Yeah, there's a couple of people that have described themselves as like, speaking of people leaving things on your hood

or your windshield. This guy ambushed me with a video camera and a microphone in like an assistant film crew type person. And he goes, hey, my name is, I almost said his name. My name is so-and-so, and I'm the world's best networker. And I just wanted to connect with you

and did it. And I'm like, this is not. stopped and I go, this is not connecting with me. You ambushed me outside of a room that I was giving a talk in. I don't know who you are. You did yell your name in my face. What is this guy doing with the video camera? Are you going to post this online? This is so weird. You're not going to remember this later if you're doing this to all 40 speakers. This whole thing is just bizarre as hell. It was like the most awkward moment because he'd probably never heard that before and he apologized and sort of left. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, you don't have to leave. Like we can talk like

people, but put the camera down, put the microphone down, sit on the couch, you know, introduce yourself, I'll do the same thing. But you're right, there's a nice in-between there that people neglect because it's unfortunate. Good people don't want to network because they think, I don't want to be a gross sort of salesy, smarmie business card in your face person. So they are willfully ignorant of the secret game that's being played around them, but in the extreme 1% or in your face and annoying, they sort of ruin it for everybody else who could use this skill to great advantage. Yeah, a key tip. is when you walk up, offer something. Don't ask for something. Offer something. Like, hey, I know that you've been

thinking about the new world of media. And actually, in fact, I think AI is going to do some interesting things in it. I think there's going to be some like, invent your own adventure stories and other kinds of things. And you go, oh, let's talk about that. Right. That's interesting. Like you're offering something versus saying, you know, Jordan, you've got this awesome podcast. Can I be on it? You're like, okay. Every day. Talk to so and so. Yeah. Every day of my, hey, are you looking for guests? Well, yes, but since you phrased it like that, almost certainly not from you. Yeah. Yes. Not to be a snob, but when you phrase it like that, for sure the rest of the conversation is going to be terrible. Yes. I also hear people, especially in Silicon Valley or in tech generally, say things like,

look, man, my work is so good, it speaks for itself, or my idea is so good, it speaks for itself. What do you think about that? The short answer is, everything is a work of becoming, and the reason that you talk about it, you articulate the strategy, you say why it is it might work, what the game plan looks like, and you don't just pretend everyone's going to go, oh my God, that's the most amazing thing ever, is because it requires that work. And we referred to Google earlier. Like, new search was not considered to be particularly smart, even though the people doing it were super smart. The idea can always use a little bit of help in its explication, in the vision you see, and why you see it could possibly work. And so try to help in the communication

in that way. I think a lot of people say things like my work or my idea speaks for itself, especially when they're talking about their work because they're afraid to market themselves and they think, you know, that sounds cringe and terrible and I don't want to do that. So what I'm going to do is keep my head down and work and then complain when somebody that I hired four years ago is now my boss are on the same level as me and say, they don't appreciate me, right? And then get all angry about it instead. Doing great work and having great ideas, super important, baseline. But then also helping those ideas work and helping people see what you're doing is also useful. You can do it in a very human way. It doesn't have to be the, I'm Reed. I co-founded LinkedIn. It could be the,

hey, I'm trying to make these internet things work really well and I learned some interesting things with LinkedIn and how to help people establish their identity and that works. You mentioned that you invest in cryptocurrency. I think probably a lot of people have heard of things like Coinbase, for example. what do you think are some of the new frontiers in cryptocurrency that are not being addressed right now? I'm not going to ask you to speak about stuff you're working on. I know how that goes. But what would you love to see walk in your door and solve for an idea that you think, how has nobody attacked this yet? Well, there's a lot going on, which is great.

The sorts of invention that are happening is a lot of developers are thinking about, like, how do we reorganize the financial side of the Internet? Just like the Internet is an open platform that's revolutionized communications and collaboration and information discovery and information publishing, how do we add the financial side of that? And then crypto systems are doing that, including for the unbank, including global, including assets and all the rest of this. And so I think that the areas that I continue to, and we've made some investments at Greylock on these, you know, is, all right, so what are the combination of the distributed platform that has their resilience and the software developers,

but also fits within the needs of society? You know, for example, no one's really solved the payment side of it yet. Tell me about it. I tried to freaking pay someone in Bitcoin and I was like, so I paid $60 to move it in, $100 to move it out. He got it two hours later after I had to email support to get it like unfrozen. This is not money at all. Exactly. So I think there's that. There's also, you know, interesting areas as it develops into even portfolio management. So like, for example, on the asset side, people use it for balancing a portfolio. But I think there's a bunch of things in that that are still as yet interesting to create. Yeah, I love the crypto space and cryptocurrency and people pitch me ideas for the show all the time. We don't need

another Bitcoin or crypto podcast, people. That's why. Back to networking. You mentioned, I'm stealing this, by the way. You say networking is like flossing. You know you need to do it, but you hate it so you never really bother. That's perfect. Yeah, well, it's the classic thing where people go, and you like, really should do it. And then the question is, just like flossing, look, put on an audio book, put on some interesting music, do something like there, and then it makes the flossing better. Well, similar in networking, yes, it's difficult for me to come out of my shell. Maybe I feel like I'm an introvert. Maybe I feel like I have nothing to say. Well, think a little bit about fun things that you might say to people when you're at the conference and so forth,

questions you might ask that would engage a good dialogue, and then try those and learn. I like this. There's one more type of no, actually, that I forgot to ask about, which is the affirmative no. And I love the example you give in the book with Kara Golden and Hintwater. Can you take us through this? Kerr-Golden is a great example of an affirmative note, which is, remember, you want to be contrarian and right. And so sometimes when people tell you that you're wrong, it's bad, it's for the reason that's validating what it is you think is an open-to-market.

So, for example, on the hit water, it's like, everyone only wants sweet beverages. And so terrible idea to invest it. And you go, well, actually, in fact, people, for example, want low-calorie beverages, hence, you know, sugar-free Coke. Sure. You know, diet Coke. And what's more, do you think only the people only want, like, sweeten beverages? Like, what about the variation and palate?

I am one of, like, many people who have a whole bunch of hint water in my refrigerator because I would like healthy water, but with some flavor, and not without sugar, and not with whatever your artificial sweetener is. And so that affirmative no, where someone who says, there's absolutely no market here, and you go, no, actually, in fact, I understand this better than you. And that actually means there's a significant market that's very open because people like you don't see it. How do you know if we're getting an affirmative no or if it's a substantial, where it's like,

this is actually a bad idea or, oh, you just think it's a bad idea, but you don't get it. Because it's really tempting as the person with the idea to think that you're a genius and everyone else doesn't get it. It's a great question. The short answer is you have to be listening carefully and have your active theory. So you go, okay, it's affirmative no because actually, in fact, the way that you said that no leads me to think there's no market here. Yet I have this other data analysis that we think it is a good market. Whereas sometimes someone might say, well, you know, like, for example, I'm not really sure you'd know how to to do your distribution and have to get your water in other people's hands. And that might be, well,

that might be a challenge. That may be something I need to fix. These things are always acts of judgment. What was an investment where you gave a no, actually? Whether it was a lazy one or not, probably wasn't, because of course, you know, you would never do that. But it turned out to be a big winner and then you weren't right in the train. Do you have anything where you're like, that's my white whale? Oh, I have a whole list. We can spend the whole podcast with mistake number one, mistake number two, mistake number three. If you're not making both type one and type two errors in investing, you're not investing well. And perhaps the canonical one was Pinterest because Ben and Paul, great guys came to me for the seed, came to the series A, you know, it's working well. And I just didn't

understand that Pinterest, that the pinboards was a new medium. I'd gotten other new mediums. I just hadn't gotten that medium. And I was like, well, it seems like a feature, not a medium. And, you know, you guys are great. But, you know, good luck. You know, keep in touch. I'll help. but good luck. And I was like, yep, that was one of end mistakes by yours truly. Pinterest is something that I also don't totally understand, but it's, I think the market is largely women, too. So of course, I just didn't understand. I'm not that visual. I don't even use Instagram that much. I don't want to collect things at all digitally or otherwise, so it's not for me. So I probably would have missed out on that as well. I remember Adam Grant, who I'm sure you

know, telling me about Warby Parker. And he's like, glasses, these are two students of his that founded this. And he's like, I don't think anybody would buy glasses by mail. And it's like, but Zappos. And he was like, eh. And then it's, you know, dot, dot, dot. He's got to, it's got to sell books instead instead of retiring. A lot of VCs will only invest in companies with a co-founder. I heard you say, why is that? I think very few VCs will only do a co-founder, but I like a number of, I hope other smart investors prefer co-founders. And the reason is when you have co-founding teams two or three people, you have a diversity of skills and ability to trade off work. You know, you handle this fire, I'll handle this fire. You have an ability to kind of cross sync and not

going to drink too much of your own Kool-Aid and talk to each other about what needs to happen. And you have kind of the resilience that comes through, you know, startups have many valley of the shadow moments where you're, why did I ever think this is a good idea? Why did we ever think this was a good idea? You can help each other through that. So generally speaking, co-founding are super strong. And people frequently forget because they think, okay, well, Bill Gates, well, Bill Gates actually had Paul Allen. That was super helpful. You know, it's Larry and Sergey. A lot of these companies actually end up co-founders are key to both resilience and the arc of takeoff. This makes sense. I definitely think it's probably easier to have somebody else,

even if they're just sharing your pain and you go, okay, we're out of money. Can you find some? I'm going to make sure that the damn thing works. Like, that would be nice. from time to time, especially in the early stages. Yes. What do you look for in a co-founder or what should people be looking for in a co-founder? Because I think a lot of folks just look for somebody who shares their passion for an idea or maybe they have technical skill, but it doesn't always make the best recipe. Yeah, so again, acts of judgment.

Generally speaking, I tend to think your co-founder should be, I wouldn't start this business unless I was starting it with them, not per se contingent because there's things they bring to our journey that are going to be completely fundamental. And obviously, they should think the same thing. And so sometimes it's, you know, one person gets the sales, the other person is technical person. One person is great with finance. Another person is great with marketing. You know, it could be a whole set of things, although everyone should be somewhat more generalist and somewhat learners and learning how to manage and hire and all the rest, I think, is part of what's key in this stuff. And then with it, you want to have people who will learn with you, who will go the distance with you, who will

stand up under the pressure that as startups, because frequently you get to the, why did I ever think this was a good idea, right? Kind of moments and then kind of work your way through it, pivot or persist or reinvent. And so those are the kinds of folks you're looking for as co-founders. In the book, you talk about entrepreneurs and building trust and how you need to build trust fast, which actually seems kind of like an oxymoron if you're not really versed on this. Trust, you say, is consistency over time. Tell me about that.

So the first thing is, you know, what's the mechanics about how people actually build trust? And it's because they realize that they can rely on somebody or something. It's part of how brand gets created because they go, okay, well, this was a really good experience.

And so I trust the person's really invested in it and will continue to do that. And that's the same thing that's true in human relationships, which is, oh, like we've been interacting for a while, you've been reliable, consistency over time. The question is, is the world doesn't slow down and wait for you. And frequently, you have circumstances where you need to build trust much more quickly. You need to build trust with each

other and the team. You need to build trust with new team members. You need to build trust with customers. You need to build trust with investors. All of this side. And so the question about how to build trust faster and also, frankly, do it in a way that's genuine, not manipulative, is one of things that you go, okay, so what are the ways that you can possibly do that? Now, in personal interactions, a frequent one is, you know, be vulnerable, say something that is, you know, kind of like revealing something of yourself to the person. They go, oh, okay, so this person's being vulnerable with me. But by the way, there's a whole set of kind of similar techniques in business. So, for example, one of the things I recommend entrepreneurs pitching investors is to be clear about which risks

you think there are in the business. Because if you say, hey, look, I think there are these risk in the business, this is how we're going to overcome them, this is what we're going to do, then you're building trust because it's like, oh, I'm not trying to snow you. I'm not trying to hide that there's no risk in the business. I'm showing you this risk, and I'm also inviting you to show you that I have given some thought to how to navigate them, and I want to work with you on it. That's an example of building trust. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Reid Hoffman. We'll be right back. Thanks again for listening to the show, and you can now rate the show if you're listening on Spotify. This is a brand new feature. It's a huge help.

it makes the show more visible in the charts. Just go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash Spotify, or, of course, search for us in your Spotify app, click those dots on the right side and make it happen. Now, for the rest of my conversation with Reid Hoffman. Right, so is that sort of maybe not radical transparency, but transparency in saying, hey, the problem we're going to have is that we're definitely going to get sued by the record companies at some point

because we're going to be dipping into their pockets and the RAA is going to come after us. Because if you don't say that, then everyone goes, this dude knows he's going to get sued into oblivion, right? Or not? Because if he doesn't see that, we got to run the other wave because he's just not thinking clearly at all. What else? What about the idea of putting the company's interests ahead of your own? Speaking of getting sued by the RIAA, the Spotify example, Daniel Eck did a really good job of sort of saying, hey, you're probably going to be mad that I want to license all your music and play it for free on people's devices, but hear me out here.

And he kind of, he massaged it. Yes. And by the way, he, figure out ways to start it. Spotify is one of the businesses I think could have only really started in Europe because what it is, he said, okay, what's the amount of money that you would expect if I were buying it? Okay, that's the minimum guarantee. I'm going to pay you that. So now allow me to experiment. They said, okay, of course, you couldn't do that for the whole world because there's not enough money to do it for the whole world, but I could do it for the Scandinavian market. And then once the Scandinavian market, it's like, oh, okay, actually, in fact, this does work. All right, we'll do larger markets now. And by the way, having proven the data, you can go and negotiate with other

players and make it happen and you've worked out your business model. And that was a way of saying, look, I take the risk off your shoulders to mine. And that's a way that you can engage in the risk of innovating here. And that kind of shared risk is also a way to potentially navigate it. That is interesting. I think also Sweden has weird IP laws where basically you can't have any sort of ownership over something. And he was like, well, this will buy us a little bit of time while they try and aim torpedoes at us and whatnot. One of your catchphrases in the book in any case is never let a crisis go to waste. Crisis creating a sense of urgency in some ways.

That sounds kind of horrible, though, because, you know, running a business, kind of the last thing you want is a crisis. I'm guessing you're not running headlong into these things or advising other people to do it. But what should we do when that inevitably arises? Well, so obviously seeking crisis or seeking, you know, kind of a fender-bender, a train rack, except for it was a bad idea. or mostly a bad idea. Sometimes there are occasions. Now, the thing is, though, you end up in the crisis. And so then the question is, is how should you approach the crisis? How should you navigate it?

Obviously, if you said, oh, my God, it's all over. I'm just going to sit here and cry. Well, that's not going to work very well. And you have a team that we're responsible for, possibly customers, company, et cetera. And so the general thing is to say, all right, we're in the crisis. We didn't select it. But how can we leverage it? How can we use it? How can we use it to discover a new, better, a possible alternative. You know, like when we talk to Tyra Banks, it was like, okay, I was going to create this whole new mall. Oh, that's not going to work during the pandemic. Okay, I'm going to pull a small team together. I'm going to innovate on ice cream. Right now for something really different. And so you want to take that crisis and use it as a leverage

point to gain energy, to do something bold you haven't done before, gather the team, get everyone rowing in the same direction, you know, playing good teamwork. work together. And that's the kind of thing. So now, let's say, okay, how do we use it? That shift of adversity into forward momentum is one of the things that distinguishes great entrepreneurs from not so great entrepreneurs. Interesting. Hadn't really thought of that before. I heard that you never hire or advise others to never hire someone when you're tired. What's going on there? I feel like most of the time we're hiring when we're tired, honestly. Well, this is a part of a general thing of all through life, through entrepreneurship, especially when you're jumping off a cliff and assembling an airplane

the way down, which is the kind of entrepreneurship metaphor, you're having to make a lot of decisions under time pressure, under information poverty, and a bunch of other things. Making decisions well and fast, and then, of course, sometimes you have to re-correct them and everything else because you're making them fast is really important. And so part of that, some of the key decisions are who you're partnering with, who you're hiring. And so if you're making that decision while you're tired, you're probably making some pretty critical errors. Like you might say, well, this person doesn't seem very good, and that's because you're tired. Or you might be saying, oh, okay, that's fine, good enough. I'm not going to really try to ask the extra question or go the

extra mile or get those three references because I'm just tired and sort of. You're like, no, no, these are kind of your company is the people who work there. And this is most critical thing to do. And so approach it with a clear head, strong energy, a willingness to go the extra mile and good decisioning. Yeah, the first few hires especially right in your organization. You're not just hiring your coworkers. You're hiring, I think you called it like culture co-creators, where if there's one a hole in a room of 100 people, fine, okay. But if there's one a hole in a room of five people, you have an a-hole culture now. Yes, exactly. That's the way it is. What's that metaphor? It's like how much motor oil is acceptable in a jar of honey? Yes, exactly. Something like that. Yeah.

Yes. Was it Zuckerberg who said never hire somebody that you would not work for in an alternate universe? That seems like a pretty good idea because I've definitely hired people I would never work for and they're not here anymore. Yeah, exactly. No, it's a very good test because they will also themselves be hiring people. They will be defining culture.

And so if you wouldn't work for them, why should you have them in your organization? Yeah. It's brilliant because it is easy as a founder or a middle manager where you're, wherever you are to go, well, they're not really my problem, because they're going to be nice to me. I'm their boss. Yes. And then it's like, yes, but everyone underneath is like, this place is more toxic now because they hired this person.

And then you start to see your lower ranks start to empty out. And of course, it's because you hired the person who's nice to you and crappy to everybody else. Yeah, exactly. I'm wondering if you are able to, Schla, is willing to speak a little bit about China and LinkedIn, because it's banned there now. Is that accurate? It's not banned.

Censored? Well, there is a censorship of content and social media sites. LinkedIn's mission is to empower every individual in the world for their best economic opportunity. And so that's the mission that we're trying to provide and we think that the world is better when that's the case and it creates better, broad-based societies when the bulk of people get great economic opportunity. And so, you know, obviously, in China is a huge important in the population of the world and is important for delivering the mission. What isn't as critical? is issues around political speech for us. I mean, obviously, as an American, political speech is close to my heart, but, you know, the LinkedIn is being a global service. And so they were trying to figure out how to navigate the tensions. And ultimately, part of the decision was, look, let's just go back to our very close knitting about jobs and recruiting people and talent. And let's stay out of the general discourse arena so that we're not running afoul of the rules in China. or pressure from groups outside of China

and are staying close to our mission, which is help people find the best economic opportunities. Yeah, of course. I mean, one of the things that is horrible about general social media companies, and nothing, no one specifically, but right, is the erosion of civic trust and disinformation and toxic threads.

And honestly, I see plenty of that on every social network, so I won't single anyone out. But, I mean, even logging into LinkedIn sometimes you see someone be like, These are un-American values and look at this schmo and this person's terrible and anyone who disagrees something is terrible. And I was like, I remember when LinkedIn didn't have this. And it was nicer. And I didn't have to look at somebody that I respected and think, well, you're officially an idiot now.

You should not have posted that publicly. What are you doing? Even if I agree with them sometimes, I'm like, what are you doing? Right? You're running a company. This is not the place. How do you not know that? But LinkedIn kind of got, it's getting a little bit of the stick instead of the carrot in China.

and I know that it is nice to go back to the original mission, but there is also some activists and things like that that have just sort of vanished from LinkedIn. And I'm wondering if that makes sense to you as somebody who founded sort of an open internet. What we try to do is we say, look, for the activists, your professional career, your ability to get a job,

your ability to hire people, your ability to create partnerships and alliances, we want to enable that, right? So the weirdness is you might be saying, as an activist, we're trying to help you, recruit the people into your activist organization and do stuff, and that's great. And LinkedIn is a perfectly good use for that. What we are not trying to be is the platform for the activism itself, just as, for example, another kind of service that I put a launch of money into and helped us change

at org, which is petitioning to try to petition institutions to be more human. LinkedIn's not a petitioning site. So you go, well, I'm an activist and I want to write about, you know, kind of situation X in depth. And I want to be to do my activism on. on the LinkedIn platform. And they're like, well, look, if the country says it's the right thing to do, we're perfectly fine with it, although we're trying to be within business and making a business better, making a career better,

making your skills better. But if it's not, go do the activism elsewhere. You can do your recruiting for your organization just fine here. So do you think that LinkedIn should limit political discussion in the United States or other countries as well as China? Well, generally we don't in countries that say that political discussion is fair

we try to do as little limiting as possible because we have that kind of individual enablement genetics. We do when it's kind of the well-organized government and says, okay, like you know, you're France and you say, well, you can't put, you know, things about Nazis in your newsfeed or your profile because that's forbidden here. We say, okay, that's fine with us because we're not trying to argue for the Nazis. We generally think the Nazis are proven to be historically bad people and people shouldn't be doing that right now. We don't like hate speech. We don't like racism. speech, you know, all of that kind of stuff we're adamantly against because that effectively disables lots of important groups' ability to realize their full value for themselves and for society.

So broadly we're there. Now, that being said, the question is, is when you say that, and by the way, there's a bunch of people on LinkedIn who say no political speech here because we want it to be only business, my usual reply to that is to say, generally speaking, that's the case because we want to have a broad tolerance. On the other hand, when the speech is about rule of law or the speech is about the appropriate treatment of women or minorities within work, I actually think that is what's good and healthy for business. And so therefore, that is, LinkedIn is a very good space to be talking about that because it's kind of like what rises all of our abilities to be great economic contributors to our communities and to the society as a whole, and that that, you know,

we need to be enabling. So that's the kind of set of considerations that go. into it. And sometimes that leads you to, like in China, issues around censorship. Yeah, it seems very tricky because, of course, somebody might say, well, what about the Uyghur minority group in China? You know, why are they getting censored? And it's like, well, are we going to exist here at all and help people with business and get jobs and things like that? Or are we going to not exist at all in this market period? Because we're going to get the plug pulled if we start allowing that stuff. I don't envy the position that people find themselves in having to control a social network like LinkedIn in China. Yeah, we don't allow censorship that says that's outside of, you know, kind of, that says

disabling people's ability to take control of their economic destinies. So if you came to us and said, Minority X is not allowed to get jobs, and so can't be on LinkedIn, we wouldn't cooperate with that. Because with that economic opportunity is what's really fundamental to us. And, you know, look, we like the rest of the opportunities too. But if you say, well, look, people can use this in order to get really good jobs, but they can't use it to complain about the oppression of Uyghurs in China, it's like, okay, right? We think they should be, but our fundamental commitment to the Uyghurs is best possible economic opportunities as we can provide through our platforms. Yeah, yeah, it's very tricky. So last time I asked you this was about two or three years ago,

you said, I would like to, in theory, rewrite Machiavelli, the Prince for modern-day Silicon Valley. So one, how's that coming along? Yeah, phenomenal. Well, I remember that conversation. I do think that it's interesting to take some of these classics and rewrite them for modern times, modern markets, modern technologies. Machiavelli, the Prince was one of the ones that kind of occurred to me because you've got these builders of these new companies and how do you build these new social systems as part of what the Machiavelli was doing was giving advice to rulers within competitive circumstances, competitive city-states within the Renaissance, competitive companies within Silicon Valley. And the short answer is, I still need to get to that project.

There's other things I've been doing, like writing the master's of scale book or doing the master's of scale podcast, but I think that project would still be interesting. What about having someone like Ryan Holiday do some of the heavy lifting on something like that? I bet I would sell like crazy. But I would, and he might be able to do a much better job than I would. Yeah, we can make it happen. Say the word. Yes.

I know you're big on connection and friendship. I'm happy to make that connection for you if you don't already have it, which I'm sure you do. I have met Ryan. Reid, thank you very much. I'm very happy to be connected with you. Thank you for coming back on the show. This is always fun. Jordan, always fun. You're a great conversationalist.

Thank you very much. Sometimes I get a little bit in my head like everybody else, especially in a format like this, so I appreciate the kind words. Are you doing like back to back this stuff and then, you know, run to the bathroom, come back, sit down, click on a link again kind of thing? No, it's fit in with other meetings. I was only doing the ones I really liked. I loved our other conversations. I was like, yes, I'll do this one. Great. Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it. I've got some thoughts on this episode. Before we get into that,

Saggett shares how humor can be used as a coping mechanism for pain and the necessity of reinvention for career longevity and fulfillment. Here's a preview. When did you know that you were funny? Like, were you a class clown the whole time? Or was it? Last year. Last year. Yeah. Fame is bullshit. To let it go to your head, the moment you're cocky is the moment you've lost me as an audience. And a lot of people are attracted to it. You know, if I had known that secret as a teenager, I would have had a lot of girlfriends or had just been quite a stud because the key was not to care.

I'm calm with my skin now. I don't know if it's evident during this thing. If I'm so calm, why the hell was I clicking this chapstick? I'm demonstrating. Yeah, man. This is what you were hearing. But you were hearing it in a much slower clicking.

It's like a hypnotic pattern for the listener. So I put your listeners to bed. For me to walk around, scared, or thinking about people that are trying to hold me, you back. Nobody's holding me back. If anybody's holding you back, it's you know, not you. Yeah. Not you, Jordan. If anyone's holding me back, it's you, Jordan. This podcast is going to, you're going to see a massive onslaught of listeners for your show. Talking Bob Sagins here for you is going to get eight more people.

Provided we don't blow it in the last quarter here or the last 10 minutes here or whatever. No, that's impossible. Well, we got more than that. We're in an hour and 12 and two of those minutes have to be cut. You're standing there with John Stamos, Dave Culey, and you think no one can see you. And I heard that there was a life-size doll. Yeah, let's forget this one. This one's painful. Ah, you know too much. I'm gonna have to kill you.

I know I read your book. When I can get near you, I have to kill you. Yeah, we can hang out when the plague lifts. Oh, I can't wait. May I'm alone here, but I don't like coronavirus. We don't have wet markets in downtown LA, right? No, we don't. I don't, at least not with like bats and penguins and other stuff that you haven't heard of.

No. Oh, what the hell? happen. For more with Bob Sagget on how the big breaks can come from one of life's worst disappointments and Bob's proven remedy for dealing with the haters and we all have haters, check out episode 372 on the Jordan Harbinger show with Bob Sagitt. Something we didn't get to that I did read in the book is that a lot of these businesses, even things like Airbnb, they interacted early on with their super fans to build referral currency and also it helps you get inside the mind of your users. I do this with you guys as well. I mean, anybody who DMs me hits me up on LinkedIn, a lot of the emails. I

reply to pretty much every single email or DM that I get. It does help inform me where the show needs to go, what people are interested in hearing. And frankly, I like to get a good feel for who's listening. And you have not disappointed. You are not all totally crazy weirdos that I would never want to meet in person. In fact, quite the opposite. I've been very delighted with who I've met as far as listeners of the show. So thank you all for being awesome. Some of us, by the way, come up with the best ideas that we have in the shower or around certain people, maybe at a certain museum. I like to walk everywhere. My shower game's not that great. I do listen to podcasts in the shower. Yes, I bring my phone in with me. And yes, I know that's weird. Sarah Blakely of Spanx, she calls it the invisible

commute. She used to just drive around the city because she would get such good ideas while driving. And I know a lot of you had that same sort of feeling. Brian Chesky of Airbnb, who you've heard on the show, he would go to the Walt Disney Museum and just sort of roam around and come up with great ideas and solve problems. I want to know what works for you. I'm so curious, tweet it at me or shoot it to me on Instagram. A lot of you, look, if it's driving or walking around great, but if you have something weird where you come up with ideas and you're like, yeah, I have to be jumping rope. I'm so curious about this because everybody kind of has their little quirky thing of a jig. And I might make a list and sort of share that of some of the

weird ones. Definitely tweet it at me at Jordan Harbinger, DM me or email me. Y'all know how to reach me. I really appreciate that. And thank you again for listening to the show. And thanks to Reed Hoffman for taking part. Links to the book and everything Reed Hoffman will be at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please use our website links. If you buy the book, it does help support the show. All those book links always do. Transcripts in the show notes. There's a video of the interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com slash YouTube. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. Or just hit me on LinkedIn. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people or at least, you know, passably good people that you should have in your life. Can't guarantee everybody's going to be

amazing, but you can manage relationships using the same software systems and tiny habits that I do. That's our six-minute networking course where I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. It's free. It takes a few minutes a day. No whining. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course, so come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogartie, Milio Campo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know some startup founders or somebody who could use the advice we talked about

here with Reed today, please share this episode with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of the show. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard to let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

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