The Jordan Harbinger Show - 705: Gabe’s Front-Row Seat to Florid Psychosis | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: July 29, 2022

On this Feedback Friday, Gabe relays the tragic story of a paranoid schizophrenic neighbor that illustrates just how destabilizing unchecked mental illness can be for family members, friends, neighbors, and the patients themselves. And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/705 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Gabe relays the tragic story of a paranoid schizophrenic neighbor that illustrates just how destabilizing unchecked mental illness can be for family members, friends, neighbors, and the patients themselves. In spite of having a dream job and a significant other who checks most of your boxes, current circumstances make imagining a future in your native Russia difficult. Unfortunately, this significant other comes from a conservative family and doesn't understand why you'd ever want to move abroad. Are your differences too radical to build a life together? Your boss is an incredible leader who commands respect across the board. Unfortunately, a family tragedy has overwhelmed her with grief. How can your team offer support without intruding on her personal life? Your significant other is great in every respect -- except for when he gets in a "mood" and resorts to calling you names and putting you down. Where do you draw the line on verbal abuse? Is it possible to profit from selling your business idea when you don't have the financial means to create your own startup around that idea? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer Gabriel Mizrahi, who just got back from Big Sur. Man, you look like you got back from Big Sur. I'm getting some strong Jack Carrowack vibes from your face. It's not going to lie. Also, you smelled like coconuts when you walked in? Why? Why? That's not a Big Sur thing. They don't have coconuts in Big Sur. They don't have coconuts in Big Sur. That's just, that's my moisturizer, which I use whether I'm been Big Sur or not. Now my whole house smells like coconuts. Does it really? Well, it did for yesterday. For like a whole thing? Yeah. I'm basically like a walking diffuser.

You came in, you came in all shiny. Like you just came in from a Dotaa MLM recruitment meeting. How dare you? How dare you equate my bougie moisturizer with a slightly less bougie bullshit? Essential oils. Yeah, a company. MLM scam. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and turned their wisdom into practical advice.

that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of

absolutely incredible people, sometimes actually incredible people, as I've learned. of our past guests are full of crap. But normally we have great folks like spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week we had Ben Hardy on Dr. Benjamin Hardy on how to be your future self now and work backwards from the person you want to be in the future. Sounds a little bit woo-woo, but it's firmly rooted in psychology and from a guy I trust to bring the goods. And speaking to the goods, we also have one from the vault with the one and only Robert Green on language learning, how to find your life's task, even if you think you're too young,

old, you're already established in your field. And of course, why it's important to apprentice, why you need a mentor and how to find one, or might need a mentor on how to find one, and why social intelligence is crucial on the path to mastery, and last but not least, how you can begin to develop that. So if you like Robert Green and his book's mastery and the 48 laws of power, you're going to be super into that episode. I also write every so often on the blog, my latest post, Why You O Your Friends Honesty. I really enjoyed writing this one, the title kind of says it all. If you want to know how candor can transform your relationships and help your friends be there for you in a bigger way, I would definitely give this one a read. You can find

that article and all of our articles at jordanharbinger.com slash articles. So make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything that we created for you here in the past couple of weeks. Now before we dive in, a quick word about how we keep the lights on around here. A lot of people have been saying, hey, you should do one of those listener-supported things. There's Patreon's, there's Apple subscriptions, there's all these different sort of apps you can use to charge people. I really don't want to do that. I'm not leaning in that direction. I want to keep this free. I want to keep it available to people who can't pay for things with credit cards. There's a lot of Russians who listen to the show. There's a lot of people in other countries like Iran who listen to the show.

There's people all over the world who can't afford to buy things. They don't have a U.S. bank. I just don't want to deal with all of that. So the idea here is to please support our sponsors. Do a quick site search before buying things online. If you're really lazy, you can even email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. I will freaking do that for you. You lazy, P-O-S. I'll find the code for something. If you can't use the site quickly or, like I said, you're just super lazy.

Happy to help you support the show. You can always go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals or do any search on the Jordan Harbinger.com website for the sponsor. And it'll pop up right there with the code. Again, please support those who support this show. So, Gabe, usually we kick off Feedback Friday with somebody else's nightmare. but today we're going to kick it off with your nightmare. And you've been sitting on this one for what, like six months now?

At least six months. So I'm excited to finally hear this. And by the way, if you're new to the show or you don't want to hear this long story, skip to 40 minutes in because it is quite a long story. That's 40 minutes you can skip right there if you don't want to hear it. And again, if you're new to the show, this might not be your bag. Because this is Gabriel's personal baggage. I've only heard bits and pieces of this because when we're recording,

you're in your apartment and sometimes you're like, there's an update on the guy. And I'm like, oh, don't tell me now because he might be listening to your walls, which he did. So, and you'll understand why in a minute. Make a lot more sense in a moment. It's going to make more sense. Where to begin with this story. Yeah.

So first of all, you know I live in an apartment building. I live in Santa Monica. Yeah. It's like a circle of bungalow slash studio apartments around this little courtyard. Yeah. It's a really charming courtyard. It's like super peaceful and beautiful. I love my courtyard.

It's truly one of like the most peaceful. places I've ever been. It's a joy to live there. So you know back in December I went to Peru for two weeks. Yeah. And while I was gone, somebody knew moved into the apartment right next door to me. And all I had heard about him from another neighbor, I think she said something like, all I've heard is that he's young and earthy, which was an interesting way to do. Surprise, surprise. He lives in Los Angeles and he's young and earthy. Yeah, that describes like half the people who go to my whole shirts. Sure. He's going to play hacky sack in the courtyard. Worst case scenario. Exactly. The other thing I'd heard is that his father had co-signed the lease for him and that his family lived in the Bay Area or up north or something.

So young earthy and unemployed, got it. Could be, but hard to say. Maybe he's 21 and he needed it. Whatever, I don't know. So when I got back from Peru, starting on about Christmas Day, I didn't see this guy at all. He just, he never seemed to leave. But I would hear him walking across the floorboards through the wall sometimes. And I know this sounds kind of weird, but just from the sound of his footsteps, I know.

knew there was something off. So, like, they were... Nothing terrible. Dragging along in your chains? It's like, nothing terrible. Okay. Kind of weird. Like, there was like sort of like a shuffle and a creek.

Mm-hmm. That just, I don't know. I just got a vibe, but I never laid eyes on this guy. So I don't know. Anyway, two weeks later, like, I was early January. I woke up one day at six in the morning to the sound of somebody wailing. Like, Jordan, I've never heard this sound come out of a human being before. It was, it was awful.

That's scary. It was sort of like a moaning, screaming, crying sound over and over again. So I jump out of bed. My heart is pounding because I thought somebody was getting attacked or something terrible as how I don't know. And I'm trying to figure out where the sound is coming from and I follow it to the wall. And I realize it's coming from the apartment next door. That is so freaking.

It's like haunted house sounds. It's sort of haunted house. Yeah. And suddenly just as my ear is pressed up against the wall, the screaming just stops. And I hear a man's voice go, he's such a bully. he's such a bully and then just starts wailing again what okay so what movie is that where the kids locked

they're locked in a room and all you hear are these voices behind the door of all these different people and then it ends up I think it's a Marvel movie but it's really dark oh then I definitely don't know what it is yeah and you hear all these different people like a girl and a guy and they're arguing and they're fighting and then later on in the movie

you find out that it's just just one guy are you talking about the guy with the multiple personalities. I don't know if I've seen that, but maybe I am talking about that. I don't know what movie, I watch one movie a year, and we watched it last night, so I don't know. This is like a decade ago. That movie was so good. Anyway, continue. Anyway, yeah, so that went on for five minutes straight, and then it just stopped. So later that morning, I go outside to take out the trash, and I see a new guy in the courtyard, and he's talking to one of my neighbors. One of my neighbors is also a good friend of mine who's also kind of the building manager.

Okay. And this new guy is, I would say he's about 30. He's very pale. He has a nest of like messy, greasy, curly hair. He's slightly stooped. Like he sort of has this like vibe. Like he doesn't have anywhere to be. He's just kind of hanging out.

He's wearing a ratty sweatshirt with stains on it and pants and no shoes. So he's earthy. He's earthy. Got it. Nailed the description. He looks like a guy you would meet in Tacoma, Washington. Sure. If that paints a picture.

Yeah. Like, a guy who's maybe like- Occupy Wall Street. Could be that too. Like, a guy who's doing his ethnomusicology PhD at Reed College or something like that. Yeah, playing hacky sack in the quad, that kind of, anyway. So I walked down the stairs. I'm holding my hefty bag in one hand. And I'm like, hey, man, are you my new neighbor?

And he goes, who are you? And I'm like, did you just move in? And he goes, what's your name? And he's staring at me. And his eyes are like, they're both super intense and also kind of unfocused and glassy. like he's here, but he's not here. And within five seconds, I just know there's something wrong with this guy. And I'm 90% sure he was the one screaming his head off this morning.

So he follows me out to the garbage bins because he wants to talk. He's like, can I talk to you? We have some things to talk about. And we go out into the back in the alley and back into the courtyard and back up the stairs to the landing outside of our apartments. And the whole time, he's on this just nonsensical rant that doesn't make sense. He's trying to explain to me how he like props his door. open at night to see the stars because he hates to be locked inside his apartment and like he likes my tree and he wants to know if he can like look at my tree and it's like a lot of stuff that doesn't

quite make sense my sense of him though is that he's harmless like he doesn't seem aggressive he's actually really nice and gentle but clearly disturbed and when he gets close to me i almost gag because he smells so bad and like he hasn't showered in like weeks or maybe months it was tough to be around. I'm asking questions though. Like I'm trying to understand him and I'm kind of finishing his thoughts for him but none of it is adding up to anything coherent. It's just like a weird jumble and now I'm starting to get worried like legit worried because I don't know if you've ever interacted at length with a severely mentally ill person like not just passing one on the street but having a full conversation. You get this weird spiky sense before you even like exchange words that there's something wrong like

your heart starts beating faster and you feel maybe you you have better in intuition than somebody like me. Maybe, but I don't know. You already, even early on, you'd said, what was the thing? You said, I knew something by the way he walked. I would never notice anything like that. I'd be like, this guy's moving furniture or something. Maybe I am more sense.

I don't know. I think you are. But I think when you talk to somebody who is on a different, like a completely different wavelength, you get uncomfortable because they're not doing anything dangerous yet, but you're just, you're encountering somebody who doesn't share the same reality as you. Yeah. And that sense that somebody is operating by completely different rules and they're impossible to really connect with or understand, that makes them unknowable. Unpredictable.

And it's just very unsettling. That is a safety trigger for humans. It's not predictability. 100%. But I feel bad for this guy and I'm worried about him. So I just keep talking to him and I'm being really, really calm. And so I'm just standing at my door and he's hovering there. And we have a moment alone where the neighbors aren't around.

So I just ask him, are you okay, man? and he's like, well, actually, I've been tortured. Oh. So, and I was like, whoa, that's an intense word. That's super heavy. And I'm like, I need to know about this morning. So I was like, you had a rough morning, didn't you? Because I didn't want to be like, you know, I just want to know if he was the one screaming.

Sure. But I didn't want to be like, what's up with your brain, bro? Like, you know, I already feel so bad for this guy, even though he, like, was a horrible neighbor. Yes, but like, it's only been one time so far. And also I didn't want to be like, was that you screaming? Like somebody abducted by. Vecna this morning. You know, like, I don't want to hurt.

So anyway, he goes, well, okay, so like a bunch of guys broke in at my last apartment and they beat me up and they threw all my stuff out on the sidewalk. So I'm trying to rest as much as possible and eat as much as possible so I can heal. You know, that possibly happened. Totally. I had like, I was like, well, that sort of sounds like an eviction. Right. But in your brain, you might have interpreted it in a very different way.

Or the neighbor. were like, you're out of here and we're going to do the eviction ourselves because we're sick of waiting for the police and you're driving my aunt crazy. And also like who knows where he was living. It might not have been an apartment. It could have been like temporary. I don't know. But this is when I realize this guy is very clearly schizophrenic. Yeah. Sort of paranoid schizophrenic is the vibe I'm getting and I am sharing a wall with this guy. So over the next couple of weeks, I start to get the full story. His dad moved him into this apartment. The dad co-signed the lease. By the way, I kind of don't want to put this guy on blast. I'm just. I'm just, Let's just call him Josh for simplicity. So Josh was on his medication when he moved in, apparently was acting super normal. And then he went off his meds after he moved in. And the day of the scream was probably the day the symptoms returned. And he had been in and out of other facilities and living situations before. And he was probably on the street for a time.

Yeah. And this had been going on for years. And the saddest part about it was apparently he was like this brilliant guy, like top student. Isn't that often the case with schizophrenic people? they're like super talented and they're super brilliant and they're really switched on and then something doesn't quite work out. They can be. Yeah.

And if this, you know, schizophrenia for men tends to happen between like 18 and 25ish. I know. God, it's terrifying. So he could have just been like this very normal, bright kid and then the schizophrenia kicked in. So anyway, look, what happens after that would take me hours to tell you this, like the full story. But basically, over the next six months, I have a front row seat to a guy in the grip of florid psychosis. Oh, man. So this is what you've heard bits and pieces of, but I could never tell you because our walls are a little bit thin.

Yeah, we can't like do a phone call where you fill me in unless you go somewhere. And it's like, well, we don't need to gossip about neighbors bad enough for you to drive to a 7-Eleven parking lot. Exactly. That was like the only place I could talk about it. So here, I'm just going to tell you a few things because I... Sure. He would like go into the courtyard and eat cereal out of a huge bowl and talk to the birds. Okay.

Like that was like a normal day. To be fair, that sounds kind of relaxing. But okay, continue. I mean, I love talking to a bird every now and again. but like every day out loud. Yeah, every day is a bit much. One time my neighbor heard him tell one of the trees in the courtyard that he was so hungry, which is like one of the saddest things.

That makes me feel bad. Yeah, that makes me feel sad. One day he was sitting on the stairs. He was building an antenna out of tinfoil. Wow, that's right on the nose. Yeah, it's kind of comical, right? Like telling the neighbors that he was receiving messages and he's lining his windows with tinfoil and cardboard cutouts from boxes that he got.

It was a whole thing. He was obsessed with this one rose bush in the garden. And we have this, like, amazing rose bush by one of my neighbor's windows. The rosebush is actually right outside the window to the neighbor's bathroom. And one day she was taking a shower and she opened the window and she was done. And he's just standing right there staring. But he's staring at the rose bush, but also now kind of staring at her, like, in the shower. And she just screams.

Of course, yeah. She wasn't expecting that. My God. He would knock on people's doors at 10 p.m. and ask them, like, weird questions. And he would skulk around the courtyard at night. And he would pace around people's back patios, which really started to freak out some of the women living in the building. Sure.

I'd wake up to the sound of him grunting, heaving, moaning. That was like a common thing. Oh, he's so tortured, this guy. Every month you could feel that it was getting worse. You know, he was like decompensating, pounding and pacing. Decompensate? I've never heard that. Yeah, sort of just like getting worse, like falling apart.

I mean, poor neighbors and poor you, but this guy's like really, this is so sad. So it's interesting you say that because one of the things that was really hard about the situation is this guy started to make my life. Hell. Like, you know how I was the last six months. Like, I was not sleeping through the night. I would wake up four or five times a night. He would pound on the walls. He would like free. I would have dreams about him. Yeah. How could you not? I couldn't fall asleep until one. And then I'd be up at three and I'd have to get up at seven or eight to work. And then I'd have to take naps. It was like really getting in the way of it. It's like having. I don't mean to make light of it, but it's like having a baby. That's what it sounds like. I had a baby next door.

Yeah. But all that said, it was really hard to get really angry because, If it was hard for me, I couldn't even imagine what it was like for him. And that was the one thought that in a way kind of kept me sane. But in another way, made it kind of hard to know how to feel about everything. Because, yeah, this guy's reality is just so much more intense and difficult than mine. So for me to complain about not being able to sleep through the night seems sort of trivial compared to what he's going through. But then the monologue started. He would just go on these insane rants for hours, just word salad, like yelling out his back window about how there's somebody upstairs and his

house, we live in an apartment, does make sense, stalking him, spying on him, using drugs, extorting him. And he would also talk constantly about how he had been molested. Like he would use that word. Oh, no. This was a recurring theme, how all these people had molested him. And he would scream stuff like, get the fuck out of my apartment. And he would point at people in the alleyway and be like, target, target, prosecute. Like, it was starting to get quite scary.

That's a kind of aggressive. It was getting a little agro. So by this point, everyone in the building is to, telling the landlord like, yo, this guy is really freaking us out. He's making a ton of noise in the middle of the night. He's loitering outside my door. He's talking to himself. Like, this isn't healthy for him. It's not cool for us. And so the landlord called his father. And he was like, listen, your son is not doing well. And he needs help. And this isn't the right place for him. Can you please come down and talk to him. Can you maybe try to help him find a place that is better? And the father

called the son to tell him that people were a little freaked out. And that set him off. So one night, he comes to my door and he's worked up. He knocked on my door and I opened. He was like, hey, are you, have you been, like, have you been spreading rumors, false rumors about me with a letter name? And he was sort of making sense, but it wasn't making sense. And I had to explain to him like, I'm really sorry, Josh. Like, I'm not quite understanding exactly what you're saying. And also, I hadn't been doing any of the things he was accusing me of.

So he's like, would you like me to write it down? Would you like me to give you a letter? I was like, sure. That's easier. 10 minutes later, he knocks on my door and he hand delivers me a letter that says, please stop making false statements about my behavior and I hear you banging on the walls. If you're trying to blame me for your actions, stop. Oh no.

Okay. So he didn't even know it was him banging the walls. It's like unclear. Is he projecting onto me something that he did? Is he trying to go on the, it's impossible to really understand. But anyway, this just got worse and worse. And the hallucinations and the delusions got more and more violent. And he was leaving the apartment less and less.

And actually, one day I was home working. and suddenly I hear the ceiling creaking. Not the wall, the ceiling above me. This is like a horror movie in so many ways. But I'm like, that doesn't, that can't be. Like, I know there's no, okay, there is an attic above these apartments in my section of the building. And this attic actually spans all six apartments on the upper floor of the building. And there are only two entrances to this attic.

And one of the entrances is in his apartment. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, could he be in the freaking attic right now, like trying to get in here or trying to spy on me? Like, suddenly I'm starting to feel like Josh. Like, I feel like. You're starting to feel like you're going crazy. And I hear what sounds like somebody moving around up there and it's moving. I can follow the sound of the creaking across the ceiling through my apartment and into the hallway and into the bathroom and all around.

And I ask my neighbor, who's also the building manager guy. And he's like, there's no way he's up in the attic. Like you need a ladder. He doesn't have the upper body strength to pull himself up. Sure. And I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense. They like, fine, whatever. I let it go. On top of all this, the police ended up coming out like probably five or six times over the months. And every time they try to get him out and open the door to talk, he would just refuse. And he would yell at them and he would ask for their badge number. It was just a whole thing. And they would just leave because there was nothing they would just wouldn't really do anything. We were hoping that the police would see how bad he was and maybe put him on an involuntary hold or called the Department of Mental Health or something because he so clearly needed help. But there was, they just wouldn't really do anything. But the hard thing, again, is he would also have moments that really weirdly endeared me to him and kind of like made me stay on his side. Like one day I came home and I walked in the courtyard and there were all these like pink roses from the rose bush delicately laid out on every point of the fountain in the middle of the courtyard. And it was kind of beautiful.

Like he had decorated the courtyard with the roses from the thing that he was obsessed with. And he had laid them out strategically around the courtyard. and it was almost like coming home to somebody like, I almost read it as maybe an apology or just like an act of random beauty. It was so interesting and sweet. There was also a really funny thing where one day one of my other neighbors was walking through the courtyard and there happened to be a stroller. Like there's a grandmother in the building and she had left her granddaughter's stroller

by the stairs. And another neighbor walked through and he pointed to the stroller and asked the neighbor, is that your ride? Which I just thought was like really funny. And then like he also was like, he would ask the building manager and some of us if we, wanted to start an ultimate frisbee league with him and he like wanted friends it was just again so hard to hate him and it was so hard to be mad when you know that underneath there's like this incredibly

sweet guy who just wants to connect it's so sad because it's almost like the healthy normal part of him is trying to escape and he has he has these moments of maybe no or low symptoms and he's like I should socialize with my neighbors yeah you know I don't know anyone in here what I wonder why is that and then he goes back into this like dark cave totally and he would have good and he would have bad days. But you could tell, that's, again, it was like he wasn't an evil person. He was a sweet kid who grew up in a normal environment who just is severely mentally ill. So anyway.

So, so sad. Meanwhile, the landlord has begun the eviction process because Josh wasn't paying his rent or the utilities and he was making the building kind of unpeaceful and unsafe. And he would just let the notices pile up on his door. And so by the end of the six months, his whole door was just covered and notices, he just refused to read them. So in the background, this very slow eviction process is happening. But it's unclear when or if he'll ever leave.

It could be months. It could be a year or more. You hear about this all the time with the courts backed up because of COVID. So we just sort of settled into this new reality and just thought it would last for a long, long time. And again, the rants are getting more violent, more disturbing. There's a lot of stuff about molestation, torture, surveillance. He's waking me up multiple times a night. He's leaving the water running day and night, flooding his apartment.

The water's flowing out of the walls and down into the alleyway behind the building. Wow. He's turning on the spigots in the courtyard at night because he's obsessed with water and just like waking us up with the sound and causing the building. I wonder if the white noise or the water noise does something. I have thought about that so much. Like what is the function of water? Like I do think there might be a white noise element.

I also think there was like a purifying element. Maybe. Like he liked this feeling of water. But the irony is that his apartment, I didn't see it until much later, but it was not good, really bad. Like really dark. and dirty and terrible. So it's like it's not actually that clean. So I don't really understand. Anyway, a couple times when he got really loud, I popped out of my apartment and I would say like, it's midnight. Like, could you please keep it down? And that was when he really started to turn

on me because he just snapped and he was like, you're the enemy. And one night he even got really mad. He was like, I said, can you still like keep it down? It's like I'm trying to go to sleep. And he goes, I'm going to have you fucking murdered. Whoa. That's scary. Okay. Went to 11. That is scary. started pounding on the wall. He's like, do you like it? Do you like it when I pound on the wall? I was like, Jesus Christ. And so a few weeks after that, one day I left my apartment.

And I sort of out of my, in the periphery of my vision, I see something new in his window. And I look at it and it's a sign written with like a Sharpie marker on cardboard from a box that he ordered. And it says in big black marker writing, dead meat molester. Oh, man. And then there's a drawing of my apartment next to his. That is scary. And an arrow pointing to it like, here he is. Like here's the molester.

And I'm like, cool, cool, cool, tight, tight. Oh my gosh. This is like a new level. But what it's sort of funny about it is that so much crazy shit had happened before that that I was sort of like, this is not even the way. Like I was like more disturbed by the pounding on the door and the screaming all the time. This is just sort of interesting. But he had sort of like, I guess he thought that I was the molester now in his head, whatever that means.

That's scary to have him be fixated on you and like a. aggressive, possibly violent way, that's a little scary. That's kind of when it started to turn. So finally, after about six months of this, the landlord finally tells us, okay, the sheriff's office has given us a lockout date. Apparently, this is the final step. This is the date when they actually come and physically remove him. And by the way, the father never came down.

Wow. They would call him. He stopped answering his phone, but they never actually came in person to help moving him. And we didn't know what to make of that. I went back and forth on this. Like has his family sort of disowned him because they're actually not that caring and they've sort of given, like they just don't care about us or him and they don't really want to help and this is just the way they are? Or have they been through this cycle so many times with him and they know he just refuses help? Yeah, this could be round 10 of this particular.

And I gather that it was like round five or six. And if I were a parent, is there just a point where you're like, I can't do this for the rest of my life? Maybe. And I sort of understand that, but it's just so hard to wrap my head around. Anyway, here's the deal. Day of the lockout comes. The deputies, the sheriff's deputies, and Santa Monica Police and the Department of Mental Health come to the building. There were like 20 people from the city in our courtyard.

They try to get him to open the door many times. They're actually being incredible with him, like talking to him really gently and trying to get him to open up. He's just refusing. He sounds different. His voice is thinner. He seems agitated. But also there's like a kind of a. vibe that like he maybe knows the jig is up in a way it's it was sort of interesting and then the deputies

and the police start arguing about whose job it is to actually go inside and once they realize that this isn't a straightforward eviction because there's a mental health component apparently neither the sheriff or the police wants to go in and remove him because he's mentally ill and it's a jurisdictional issue and they're each on the phone with their supervisors and they're telling them don't go in oh man and now the the ambulance has arrived because they called an ambulance to take him to a hospital and have them evaluated, they're about to leave. And the landlord is no, no, you cannot leave. Like, this has been going on for months. We've gone through the process. This is all in the up and up. This has to come to an end. And finally, the police, like, nobody wants to do it. And finally, the EMT that came

with the ambulance just steps up and he's like, I'll do it. Not his job to go inside, but like, he's like, I'll do it. And the best part about this is we have like 20 law enforcement officers there, the EMT, who's like not, no weapons or anything is like, I'll go in. They're like, are you sure? Because he might be a little dangerous. He might be a little agro. And the EMT guy goes, I know Jiu-Jitsu. I can handle myself. Yeah, I was going to say he probably has more training than any of those cops who came over there. So the EMT is like, and didn't want to do their jobs. Totally. So the EMT is just like, give me a blanket so I can swaddle him like a burrito and I'll take care of it. So I should not laugh, but that's a funny visual. So the sheriffs break the door down.

But the EMT goes inside, and Josh is inside completely naked. Oh, gosh. Okay. And his apartment, a waft of the worst smell you've ever smelled comes out of his apartment, goes out into the courtyard and back and through my window in my apartment. Like, it's just the most intense experience. And he's like, what are you doing? Get out of here.

And da-da-da-da. But he's sort of not fighting them super hard. The EMT swaddles him and walks him out step by step. Like, one step in front of the other, buddy. They're just being so kind and gentle with it. him. And they take him downstairs and they like, he picks him up in his arms like a baby and puts him on the gurney. And they wheel him out to the ambulance. And that was the end of that. And afterwards, I did peek inside his apartment. Yeah, of course. I'm so curious. It looks like, have you ever seen

Breaking Bad? Yes. You know, like when they show some of the houses of like the drug addicted people. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of looks like that. It is trashed. It's just a disaster. It smells bad that he never threw a single thing away. There's just like rotting food and dirty napkins and trash. everywhere and there are like burned cereal boxes. The stovetop is completely black and burned, which is crazy because he had also taken out the smoke alarms. Oh, that's super dangerous. Super dangerous.

Like that was actually the most dangerous thing he did. Out of all the weird things, it was like that was the thing that put us at risk. Drawers and sliding doors were taken off the tracks and thrown around the apartment. It was a nightmare. Like all the knocks and weird sounds I heard were all this stuff. And the most interesting thing was that the drawers in the closet were stacked on top of each other in the hallway

beneath the attic entrance. And there were handprints, like dirty handprints around the entrance to the attic. So he was up there. He was up there. He had been going up into the attic and crawling around up there. It was like reverse parasite or something. Like, I don't know what exactly.

We're there in the basement. Yeah. Oh my. Except he's up there. Gosh. Dude. So I can't describe to you the feeling on this day. And also like I've left out like hundreds of details

that I can tell you about. But like I had this profound feeling. of relief and also just the most intense sadness I think I've felt for another human being in my life. In fact, my sister happened to be over that day because we had a little work to do together. And she started crying when they started talking to him through the door. And I started crying. And it was, I have done that a few times with him because you just get this image. Like they would talk to him through the door like Joshua, can we help you?

And you just had this image of this boy who was like, parents never knew he was going to turn into this guy. And he just have this like, there's just an innocence and a. sweetness to him. And it was just, it's really hard to put words, too, but it really hit me and it really got to me. Anyway, they took him to a hospital and then they took him to another hospital and we heard that they weren't going to release him because the situation was so severe. Sure. Which was a huge relief as well because I was happy to hear he was finally going to get some help. But then a few days later, we heard that the hospital had released him, probably because he was medicated again and he wasn't harming himself and they can't keep you unless they have a really good reason to do that. And then the last

we heard was that he's just on the street in a town like 45 minutes away and he's refusing help. And I'm guessing he's off his meds again. And he's just one of those people. You see screaming at pigeons on the street or whatever. It's just absolutely heartbreaking. And so I got my piece back, which is lovely and I'm happy about that. And I kind of hope that he would find his own piece wherever he ended up. But really, I just got like a glimpse into a reality that was so different. And have to say, after taking all of these questions on Feedback Friday from people who had schizophrenic neighbors, schizophrenic tenants. Remember the guy, the couple who rented out the top floor of their house to a schizophrenic guy? Who was yelling at them and had the kid in there? Yes,

yes. And the neighbor guy who attacked the car with a baseball bat, the aggressive mentally ill guy. And the guy who was like fashioning a spear in the living room. Sharpening a broom handle into a spear. Yeah. So every time we got those questions, I would have to sort of like imagine what that nightmare was like. And I think we've even consulted with experts who helped us understand what it's like to deal with a severely mentally ill person. I did not understand what it's like to be in the facility. Yeah, you had a front row seat now. And I had a wall between us. You know, I had some distance. I felt safe. You know, like he never came to my door. He never tried to get inside. He never attacked me in the courtyard. It can be so much worse than this. But the bottom line is schizophrenia is really,

really sad and really scary. And it is just heartbreaking to watch up close. It was hard for us to be around, but it was much harder for him. The other thing I learned, Jordan, is that our system is really limited. Clearly, I mean, they took them months to get to this guy

and then they were going to leave before the EMT was like, fine, I'll handle it. Because the cops' bosses were like, well, I might have to fill out some extra forms. This is going to be a lot of paperwork. I don't know what we're a lot to do without getting sued. Just go home and keep it there. problem.

Yeah. And there are gaps in social services. It's really hard to get people to come out. Like it would take weeks for Department of Mental Health to come out. There are not funds and resources available for people. I also understand that's really difficult because you have to balance getting somebody the help they need with their liberty and freedom and not impinge on them and it's tricky.

This is Kami, California, man. We're supposed to have all. So imagine what it's like in other places where they just criminalize this kind of stuff. Yeah. Or ignore it completely. And it gets worse on the street, which is exactly. what happens in parts of Los Angeles where you see really severe mentalness, like in Skid Row. Sure.

And it's coupled with drug use and neglect and crime and it's a whole thing. But anyway, what I realized is that sometimes a patient like this has to be a lot worse before they can get better. Like they have to decompensate and get themselves into a little bit of trouble before they actually get the help they need. But even then, the hospital won't keep them and it sort of becomes the cycle. Also, Josh refused to take his medication. And as long as he wasn't on the street or hurting other people, no one could make him do that if he didn't want to do that. So if he didn't open the door and invite people in and ask them to help, whatever it was, no one could really see if he was all right and get him the help he needs.

So it's very tricky. And also like, whose problem is this at the end of the day? It's very confusing. Like, is it the patient's problem? Is it his parents problem? But he's also a grown-ass man. I mean, this is America. So health care, it's your problem?

It's your problem. But then, yeah, but then you're like, is it the government's problem at a certain point? because I'm starting to think that, yeah, the state does have a huge role to play here because in the absence of parents or neighbors or friends or the willingness of the person, the state has to do something to keep people safe. But again, what about his freedom and his right to live how he wants and how do you balance that? I mean, he could have burned down your apartment and then he would have been a criminal arsonist and also severely mentally ill. Right. And do you wait for that to happen? Right. And then cut to people in the prison system who are in his position with that illness but then did something like accidentally burned down. their apartment because they lit a cereal box on fire for the hundredth time. Yeah. Anyway,

I have to say this really changed my whole understanding of mental health and mental illness, what it's like to live with it, what it's like to watch it happen, and also just how sad and destabilizing it is for family members. Like, I constantly think about his parents even now and friends and neighbors. Like, it was hard for us, but I can't imagine what it's like for people in his life. And most of all, for him, it's just a situation that has no answer. Like, there is no simple, easy solution. You can make it easier on yourself. You can play along. You can take the medication or take advantage of the resources. But oftentimes, you don't even have the inner resources to even understand. Like, he couldn't even understand what was happening. Like, he was

convinced the medication was making him ill. So, yeah, it's just, you know, we desperately need more programs for vulnerable people, but I know that's easier said than done. And I just had to finally tell you that story because I don't have to worry about Josh hearing it through the wall and freaking out on me even more. So that is my feedback Friday night. Wow. I mean, 40 minute Q1. Yeah, this is really, this is quite something. I mean, I knew there was a lot going on. We had small updates here and there. You texted me things here and there, but I never heard the full, and this isn't even the full. I never even heard the full abridged version. I tried to give you the highlights and focus on the things I remember. But yeah, yeah, there's so many moments that. Also, yeah, like,

thankfully, you can live in a little bit more peace now. And we don't have to stop. and start feedback Friday every time somebody yells. There was a lot of that. There was a lot. The helicopters and the planes in L.A. are bad enough. It was also a thing when we had, it would have been harder to explain to the listening audience what the screaming and banging was. That would have been weird, yeah.

On the wall. It's just, we just desperately need more help for people like this, but you're right. We have to balance it with civil liberties and there's no sort of really obvious, easy answer other than something that's, yeah, I don't even know. What do we begin? Yeah, it's more coercive. Exactly. Well, hopefully he's, like you said, find some peace.

but either way, he's not coming back to your apartment. You know who's definitely coming back, though? You and I, right after this quick break. Thank you so much for supporting the show and, of course, for listening to the show. We love creating this for you. All the sponsors that you hear, all those deals and discount codes,

they're all in one very searchable, mobile-friendly place, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor on the website as well right there at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next step, or first step, as it might be. Hey, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm a 26-year-old female software engineer, and after struggling for many years, I'm now working at a very famous international tech company and dating a great guy, whom I love dearly and have been with for a year. The problem is, I'm Russian, and while I'm okay with living here, I've always wanted to move abroad. I've traveled a lot, been to many countries, and always considered myself very cosmopolitan in my beliefs. Now, given the current circumstances here, I'm getting more and more scared, depressed, and claustrophobic. My feeling of alienation in my own country is through the roof, and I want to

move desperately as soon as possible. The thing is, my boyfriend is younger than me, and he's applying for a master's degree here in Russia, which takes two years. He was also raised far from Moscow in a very conservative family, and while not really pro-government, he isn't that swayed by what's happening these days. He wants to stay in Russia, close to his culture and his language, and doesn't really get why I'm so desperate to move, although I've tried explaining it to him a couple of times already. I realize I don't have the right to change his wishes and beliefs, but I'm not ready to stay here for two more years with no certainty that he'll be ready to move afterward. At the same time, I really, really want to try to build my life with this guy, who checks all my boxes, except this big one.

So how do I balance my wishes with his? Do we even have a chance to build a future with such different views on life? Signed, a tethered technologist looking to get out of this. Wow, this is pretty fascinating, Gabe. It's a real glimpse into how Russian politics are playing out in people's relationships in Russia these days. And I kind of wondered about that in the back of my head. You know, what happens if your cousins lives in Ukraine? How do you handle that?

or your girlfriend's family or wife's family is from there. You hear about this in the news here and there. It's a hard one. You're in love with somebody who's different from you in some pretty significant ways. He wants to stay in a country that you're not happy with. He's not as exposed to international perspectives or I guess you'd call it big city cosmopolitan ideas. He doesn't maybe stand for Putin, but he's also not too bothered about what's going on these days. He's more conservative in his values. He's struggling to see your point of view, but you're really in love with him. You want to build your life with him. He's great in all these other ways. So yeah, there's some real conundra here. So first... I see you's a conundra. Yeah, I'm trying to bring it back.

So first of all, it's very clear from your letter that you know what you want in life. You know your values, your needs. That's wonderful. Your boyfriend has his values and needs, and those aren't lining up, at least not right now. And I do think that's a real challenge in a relationship. This isn't just, you know, I want to live in the city, but he wants to live in the suburb. or on a farm. Or, yeah, we quibble about some of the details, but we both think Russia's doing the right thing over there in Ukraine. You guys, you see your country and the world in profoundly different ways, which is fair. He's allowed to hold whatever beliefs that he holds. It's just hard when you guys are trying to build a life together and you're not even sure where it's

going to be, let alone settle on all these other details. The other thing that jumped out at me here is your boyfriend doesn't really get why you're so desperate to move, even though you said you tried explaining it to him a couple of times. I'm not sure if you meant that he understood where you're coming from, but he just has a different angle on things, or if he wasn't able to hear you at all, which could be a deeper challenge in the relationship itself. It might mean you guys don't communicate as well as you should, or that his beliefs are making it impossible to even appreciate where you're coming from. That could be a more fundamental problem. And if it is, that's something that I would hold alongside all the other things that you have in love about your relationship.

So to answer your question, I do think it'll be hard to build a future with such different views on life, unless one of you is willing to reconsider your views or give up certain needs. But that could come at a cost. Resentment, despair, regret, inauthenticity, plus more of the fear, depression, and claustrophobia that you yourself have described. And those are really important signs to pay attention to. You're having a very strong response to living in a place. that doesn't feel right to you. And I'd hate for you to settle for those feelings if you have the opportunity to get out.

I agree with you completely, assuming, of course, that she's depressed and afraid and claustrophobic because of what Russia is like these days and not just because she's dealing with those feelings anyway and just happens to be living there. Right, yeah, now that's a good point. It's tempting to pin all your hopes for feeling better on moving to a different place.

I went through this. When I was kind of down and out about like, oh, college sucks. It's not the thing I wanted it to be. I'm like, I'm going to go to Israel. And then I went to Israel. And I was like, this is kind of the same problems, but different place. And then I went to Ukraine, coincidentally.

And I had a different experience there, but most of the core issues were still the core issues. And it all comes back to that wherever you go, there you are. You're just bringing your freaking problems. And not just sad about eating falafel now. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I'm sad and lonely and bad with the opposite sex, except I'm eating falafel now. And I don't have a meal plan. And then it's like, oh, okay, I'm going to Ukraine.

And now I'm still sort of all my own a lot, but I'm eating a lot of Veronica. The food was awesome there. So maybe that was part of it. And I got a lot of great experiences. Sure. But I literally, for some dumb young reason, you know, being young, I thought, I'm going to move there and I'm going to be, I'm going to have this totally different, I'm going to be a different person. Right.

But it's such a tempting thought. It is a very tempting thought that. Or it could be with a job or with a partner or whatever it is. But I have to say, though, listening to this letter, it does sound like she feels this way because of the way. because of the way her country is these days. The fear and the claustrophobia especially seem tied to that. So maybe getting out is exactly what she needs.

My only other thought is, you're 26. I know you love this guy. I know you could build a great life with him. And I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't. But wanting to live somewhere else and get out of a, let's just say, problematic environment right now, experience the world some more. These are super legitimate needs.

They are very fun and exciting and interesting. this is the time in your life when you should be pursuing them. And sometimes, sadly, that does mean that your goals just won't be compatible with another person's. At your age, I really do believe that you have an obligation to yourself to build the life that you're excited about and to listen to your intuition and to honor your values, you know, to follow your dreams, basically, as corny as that sounds. And it sounds like you're already leaning in that direction. Like you said, you're not ready to stay in Moscow for two more years with no certainty that he'll be ready to move somewhere else afterwards. So maybe your mind is already kind of made up. But what's hard is that you can't get

everything you want here. There will be tradeoffs. Those opportunity costs, they're part of life. So you need to do some soul searching and figure out what's most important to you. And I know that's what you're writing it about. Like how do I balance my wishes with his? But that's really something only you can answer. It basically comes down to whether the love you feel for this guy is more important than the freedom you could have somewhere else. But I can say this. Given everything you've shared with us, I do think there are some very good reasons to prioritize your interests right now. I know that sounds kind of brutal, but I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about you in 10, 15, 20 years, wondering what life might have been like if you had listened to that voice telling you to live

somewhere else because this is the time and you have talents and interests that can only really be explored in another country. And I would hate for you to have any regrets about that. Yeah, that's where my head is at too. She's young. She's driven. She's super smart. She's obviously very sensitive and insightful. She deserves more than what her country seemingly is offering right now. And so if she has the opportunity to live in Berlin or Stockholm or New York or whatever, even for a little while, you kind of got to take it. Take it. Yeah. I'm sure Russia, is an amazing place. I would always, I would love to check it out. No shade on Russia. But the brain drain and economic pain that's forthcoming and is already underway over there is very real. And the

crazy authoritarian nationalism is real. That's a real thing. And I'm sure that if you could get to the very soul of most Russian people living in a city like Moscow, they'd be like, yeah, I could do without the whole causing a war, international sanctions, authoritarian secret police type leader, you know, yeah, depending on what news source. Depending on what news source. But I honestly, I think think even unless they are really diehard nationalist, they're probably like, yeah, I could live without that. They know what's up. Right. I think they could. You could avoid all of that by moving to someplace that is able to offer you a better life for yourself and your future children. And you can always move back and help rebuild the Russian economy once this giant mess is over with. And they're

going to need all the help they can get at that point. And by the way, speaking of regret and wishing things were different, you might want to listen to my interview with Dan Pink about that exact topic. It is a great episode for anyone who's wrestling with regret or wanting to live a life without regret, which I think is a lot of us. That's episode 625. We'll also link to it in the show notes. And to be fair here and acknowledge our biases, Gabe and I are probably more supportive of you exploring this because we've also recently been really saddened and disturbed by what's happening in Ukraine. I am not a fan of Putin. I've spent years studying the guy. This is sort of the worst case scenario that a lot of us saw coming. I'm sure that that's playing a big part in my

take here, at least, someone else who supports Russia might have a very different opinion on all of this. So that's another variable to consider. I happen to think that we're on the right side of history, but I'm just keeping it real. I know this is a daunting decision. Either way, you have to give something up. Either your boyfriend or your dream of living abroad. And that's really tough. That is an intense choice. But I don't think you'd be having these feelings if they weren't trying to tell you something. So I say, listen to them. You're a software engineer. You have the skills. that companies all over the world value, and it sounds like you could be living

a very fulfilling life abroad right now. Agreed. So I hope you get to explore this, and I hope that your boyfriend understands at least a little bit, and who knows, maybe he even joins you one day, or he realizes how serious you are, and he's like, okay, I guess we're going abroad.

Could be. Maybe he's just thinking out it's a phase or she's getting cabin fever. If he comes around, great, and I hope it leads you to some more exciting adventures either way. So good luck. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work in Massachusetts, and my director is the glue that holds us all together.

Under her leadership, she has drastically improved our organization, and everyone in the department greatly respects her. Unfortunately, this last month has been absolutely devastating for her. She found out that her husband has a terminal form of cancer and only has a few months to live. She's been working around the clock to make sure that the organization is in a steady place before she will inevitably have to take time off. After work, she's in the hospital visiting her husband and comforting her kids. Understandably, she's completely exhausted and overwhelmed with grief. Our team has stepped up to take anything we can off of her plate, but we're more concerned for her well-being.

She's been breaking down on Zoom calls, yet keeps trying to hold it together. What can our team do to help? We're assuming that therapy would be her best option, but how do we even bring that up? Signed, helping a mate carry this weight without starting to help. to grate, frustrate, or aggravate. Well, you went all out on that one. Yeah, this is a good question. Going through something super intense at work, grieving at work, this is tricky territory,

and it's hard to know how exactly to support a colleague who's really going through it. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this, so we reached out to Ebony Younger, employee relations experts and talent strategist. And first, when we asked Ebony how to step up to help your colleague out right now, her main recommendation was to turn it up a notch with regards to managing up. And that means over-communicating your team's priorities, getting her feedback to make sure everyone's aligned, anticipating her needs,

taking on small tasks that would help unburden her. And when you guys bring problems to her attention, it would be really helpful to have a few solutions on deck. You know, do some of the lifting for her. Get the ball rolling. See how much you can take care of on your own and reduce the burden on her. Ebony's other idea?

Someone in the organization, maybe the most senior member of the team or a colleague who's especially close to your director, someone should have a one-on-one with her. Check in, see how she's doing. You obviously care deeply about this woman, and it's clear that she cares a lot about her work and her team, which is great.

So Ebony's advice is to approach her with empathy and compassion and let her know that you are all there to support her during this incredibly difficult time. You guys could suggest taking on a portion of her work or all of her work, but the best solution there is one that's decided upon as a team collaboratively. Also, Ebony recommends trying to reduce the number of meetings y'all have these days. As we all know, so many meetings are just status update nonsense or like brainstorming sessions. They can easily be done over email, slack, text, not at all is my favorite option.

they could make your team even more efficient and reduce the amount of time your director has to stop herself from bursting into tears on a freaking Zoom call in front of all of her colleagues, so that's a win-win. But in the bigger picture, Ebony's view is that the work is going to get done whether she's there or not, but she will never get these two or three months with her husband back. That's just the unfortunate reality, and that's where her focus needs to be. As Ebony put it, and I thought this was very wise, there are some jobs only you can do.

Maybe that's being a parent. I know you think it's your email inbox or some sort of meeting thing, but it's probably more like being a parent to your young children. Maybe that's being a spouse to a sick partner. Maybe that's being a caregiver for an aging parent. If you own your own small business or something, sure, it's much harder to step away. But these big companies, they're always going to keep pushing. They will survive.

They're going to be fine. I hate to say this, but don't worry about them. They're certainly not going to spend a hell hell of a lot of time as a corporate entity worrying about you. Maybe that's not true for your team, but it's probably true for the C-suite that's never met your boss in the first place. Plus, they have the infrastructure, processes, momentum. They'll be fine. Yeah, they'll keep going. So Ebony's recommendation for anyone listening right now, and this is coming from an HR professional.

Remember, don't miss out on life's precious moments because you're trying to hold it down at work. Trust that your company and your colleagues, they're going to be okay. So true. That is a really good reminder. And as for when the higher-ups should intervene if an employee is regularly breaking down and struggling to keep up, well, that depends on the type of work you guys do. Ebony's take was if a major account is at stake or you guys get a complaint like a serious complaint from a big customer or important targets are being compromised, then she would escalate it. And she said that there's a way to let the higher-ups know that something's awry without going behind this woman's back. So if you're a way. You know, you need to escalate this via email to somebody who needs to look into it and make sure that the trains are running on time or whatever, include her on the email. If you guys need to have a meeting to make sure that things are still on track, make sure she's there, invite her to the meeting. Like, don't skulk around by her back and make her get paranoid about whether she's still, you know, valued by the company. To use Ebony's words, and I think this was also a really

important point. This woman is going through a rough time. It's important to not treat her as if she's incompetent on top of that. Ebony also said that your director has some options if she needs to take time off. And we're going to get a little detailed logistical here, but I do think this is really useful information. So again, this depends on the size of your company, how long she's been with them. But if the organization has at least 50 employees and she's been a full-time employee for a year, that means like 35 hours a week or more, she would qualify for both the Family Medical Leave Act and her state's leave. So FMLA gives an employee up to 12 weeks of protected leave, and Massachusetts gives an additional 24 hours. So both leaves, by the way, can be taken

continuously or intermittently. So for example, she could take leave here and there for her husband's doctor's appointments or when he's having a really tough day, or she could wait until he's admitted to, say, hospice to start a continuous leave. And of course, she will need documentation from a medical provider and all that. In Ebony's view, she should connect with her HR person like, yesterday to start the FMLA process. Also, some companies offer what's known as an employee assistance program or EAP for those going through a tough time, which means she might be eligible for up to eight sessions of counseling, which is great. And that could include her children as well. Her insurance plan might also offer mental health benefits. So my take, if one of you guys is close

enough with her, maybe you gently encourage her to take advantage of that. But Ebony's recommendation is that you guys leave it to HR to discuss this with her. Maybe. that's more appropriate because it is kind of personal like if you're her employee I don't know if you should go up to your boss and be like hey I think you should talk to somebody because you're freaking everybody out on the Zoom or whatever you know but I try and hold it together Janice's like come on not ideal but I do think that um you guys seem to have a really good relationship with her and I think she's probably at a place in her life right now where if somebody came up and said we love you and we're concerned about you I think it would be great if you had somebody to talk to she

probably wouldn't take a ton of offense to that just make that decision based on the quality of your relationship. I mean, look, if you're comfortable enough to cry in front of your team on a Zoom call instead of just going, excuse me and running into the bathroom to do it, you can listen to a better help discount code. Right. Yeah, you're probably better. It sounds like they have a tight little team. I think so. Which is great. Yeah. I know for me to cry in front of people at work would take quite a bit. It would, but you know, like that conversation might even bring them closer together. I think so. You know, like it's sort of those moments when you realize that you do have a relationship with somebody you didn't think you have. Right. Or that people care about you in a dimension that you just

weren't paying attention to it all. Right, right. It could bring them closer together, which is actually really lovely. Sound advice all around, man, I feel for this woman. Losing your spouse and juggling a demanding job. She's obviously extremely competent and an overachiever, and she's probably really struggling to achieve the desired result here. And also, she's running, talk about burning the candles at both ends.

I mean, this is just... Seriously, how do you do both of those things at the same time? Yeah, and with your kids. It's just a lot to take on, yeah. But this woman sounds great. She's lucky to be surrounded by colleagues who care so much about her, and you being there for her right now, that could make this whole period just a little bit more manageable. And maybe, like you said, Gabe, quite meaningful as well.

So big thanks to Ebony for her wisdom. You can find Ebony on Twitter and on Instagram at Career Supreme or on LinkedIn. And we'll link to all those socials on the show notes. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. By descriptive, I don't mean feedback Friday. We get that.

Anything but that, actually. If you need a new perspective on life, love, work, how to come out to your religious gaslighting parents, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. You know what else will bring a tear to your eye, Gabriel. The great deals on the products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show and for allowing us to give you this amazing advice week in and week out. To learn more and get links to all of the discounts and the deals, they're all in one place over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor

using the search box on the website right over at Jordan Harbinger.com as well. So please consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My boyfriend is great in every respect, but when he gets in a mood,

he resorts to calling me stupid and putting me down. To be clear, I don't take issue with being told I'm stupid. I'm very confident and I know my strengths and weaknesses. What upsets me is hearing these words from a partner I trust and respect. I've told him as much, but he's uncomfortable with the conversation after the fact and shuts down, refusing to talk about it. When he does talk, he blames me for his behavior. I've tried so many tactics. I ignore him, I speak up for myself, I shut down and tune him out, which isn't healthy either. Sometimes I yell, which isn't effective, but is satisfying. I explained that I can't live in this environment and we need to come to an agreement or separate.

I even left once, and he continued the verbal abuse through texts. When I ignored him, he finally apologized and promised a change and therapy for us. I returned the next day. He didn't follow through, and a year later, I'm feeling hopeless and foolish. Cutting my losses and leaving feels like the easy way out, but something I would regret down the road. I do love and respect him, and there's something to be said for that. We have a child and a farm together, and there is so much here to adore, but not at the expense of my dignity. I was raised in a similar environment and will not allow this for my daughter, but I don't want to

lose the wonderful life we have. We've talked about getting married, which is what I've wanted since I met him. But I would be scared to make that commitment when I'm brought to tears on a moment. monthly basis. If this doesn't work, I'll have to build this life I love without him, and that's okay too. So how do I finally draw the line on verbal assault, name-calling, and degradation? Signed, demand, withstand, or draw a line in the sand. Oh, yeah, this is a tough letter. This is a real glimpse into a very complicated relationship. So the thing that's really jumping out at me here is how riddled with conflict this whole relationship is. Your boyfriend is emotionally abusive,

but you trust and respect him, you said. You've pushed for him to change, but you stuck with him when he didn't, and you've stayed. You say you feel hopeless and foolish for believing him when he said he'd get help, but you don't want to stay at the expense of your dignity. He refuses to talk to you about all this, but there's just so much here to adore. You're worried about your daughter growing up in a toxic home, but you don't want to lose the wonderful life you have. You want to get married to this guy more than anything, but you're scared to commit to somebody who makes you break down every few weeks. But also, you might slash probably would be okay building a life without him, but then again, leaving feels like the easy way out. These are all

quotes from you. And it's something you'd regret down the road. The reason I'm repeating all of this back to you is so that you can hear for yourself how tangled up you are here, how contradictory these feelings are. I'm not judging you for that. I just think it's important for you to see how your stance has left you so vulnerable to a person who is is mistreating you. This is often the dynamic in an abusive relationship. It is so hard. It is so complicated. But you have to see how you sticking with this man and either ignoring or minimizing or justifying or in some cases just enduring the verbal abuse because, you know, you can take it. you have to see how that's exposing you to this hurtful behavior. And you might even be signaling to him

that he can continue treating you this way, not that that's an excuse for it. And look, I don't want to go for the easy psychoanalysis here, but the fact that you grew up in a similar environment, I think that's playing a huge role here. As I'm sure you know, when you're raised in an abusive home, sometimes being mistreated, well, can feel like love, or at least it feels familiar, and it can be very hard to see just how severe the abusive behavior really is. But when you said, I don't take issue with being told I'm stupid, I'm very confident, and I know my strengths and weaknesses. Honestly, that kind of broke my heart.

I hear some real resilience in that statement, but I also hear somebody who is so accustomed to being mistreated that she can't fully grasp the weight of her partner's words. And also, someone who maybe sometimes even agrees with her abusive partner because, you know, yeah, my boyfriend calls me stupid sometimes, but I know deep down that I'm not, so it's okay. Plus, is it really so bad if my boyfriend calls me stupid if I also know that I'm not perfect? That logic, it's probably one of the ways you've learned to cope. And that's oftentimes the textbook logic of an abused partner. And I wonder if maybe those thoughts are also a way to

continue shifting responsibility away from your boyfriend and onto you. Because it's safer for you to think of different ways to respond to him, including drawing stronger boundaries, than it is to say, well, my boyfriend is abusive, and he needs to seek serious help if this is ever going to work. So, while I appreciate your question, how do I draw the line on the verbal abuse, the name-calling, and the degradation? I think that's kind of missing the point. Because first of all, you've already drawn different kinds of boundaries. You've ignored him. You've spoken up for yourself. You've fought back. You even left once. And nothing changed. So the question for you, me is why? Why? Yeah. Well, one answer might be that her boundaries just weren't strong enough,

right? Like when you left that time, your boyfriend kept attacking you. And then when he realized that he might really lose you, he backpedaled and apologized and said he wanted to go to therapy, and then you went right back to him. But a stronger boundary, a healthier boundary would have been to say, okay, great, go to therapy. Go work on this. I'll be over here, taking care of myself and our daughter and when you're ready to talk, like really talk, we can talk, but I'm not going to come right back until I see that you're making real progress or you're at least committed to the process, right? And then it's on him to prove that he's willing to do the work that he says he will. And again, we are not blaming you for doing that. This is extremely common in relationships

like this. But you asked how to draw a line. So I'm just telling you what a stronger boundary could look like in practice. I would encourage you to get very clear with yourself on what you will. and won't put up with from your boyfriend from now on and how you're going to respond if he continues like this. Now you know that coming right back, that's not going to work and your boyfriend hasn't followed through on his commitment to getting better. So you've learned something from that experience. And now you know that you have to hold that boundary even more strongly if you decide to leave again. But Jordan, I also wonder if it's harder for her to hold these boundaries because of her history. And that's where she needs to do some work here, right? Okay. So

you talked about couples counseling. I'm sure that would be helpful. But if I were you, I would also be very interested in understanding how you're showing up in this relationship, how your patterns and your experiences are playing a role here. Why it's been so hard to work on this with your boyfriend or to finally decide to end the relationship, if that's what you want. Your boyfriend also needs to talk to somebody, that is very clear, but so do you. And in a world where your boyfriend might not actually get the help that he desperately needs, it's your job to step up and get the help that you need. And I got to say,

given that you and your daughter are in a potentially quite difficult, hurtful situation, I really do think you could use that support. Yeah, I'm with you on that, Gabe. He's the aggressor here, no doubt about it. But if he won't change, then she needs to change. Yes. She needs to figure out the roots of those messy conflicts we talked about a moment ago and what she ultimately wants here.

As you can tell, we're pretty concerned about you. I'm sure everyone listening to this right now is having a similar reaction. This is not a loving, peaceful home for you or your daughter to grow up in. Could your boyfriend get better? Sure. Yeah, I hope he does. And I do have some empathy for the guy because you don't tear down your partner like this if you aren't in some serious pain yourself.

Good point. But what he's doing is not okay. No. It's not okay. And if he isn't sincerely seeking the help he needs, if he isn't truly working on this with you, then you have to ask yourself why you're sticking around. And most importantly,

you got to try to figure out what matters more to you, you and your daughter's safety and happiness or hanging on to a relationship that's causing you so much pain. And by the way, programming your daughter to accept really crappy behavior from a partner in the future. Good point. So whatever you do, take care of yourself, we're wishing you the best,

and we're sending you all a big hug from California. All right. Hey guys, what are some options for somebody who has an idea for an app or anything in general, but doesn't have the means to make it happen? Is there a way to sell that idea or to make some money off of it? Signed, cashing in without coughing up. Okay, so I actually get a version of this question all the time. Smart people come up with cool ideas all the time, even not smart people come up with cool ideas all the time, or at least ideas. And with the tech industry the way it is, it is exciting to think about,

an app or coming up with a neat idea and making a quick 10 million bucks or whatever. But I always have the same response, which is, the truth of the matter is, your ideas or ideas in general, they're just not worth anything. Maybe in Hollywood they are, Gabe. I know you're in that world. Sometimes if the idea is really, really good. It has to be amazing. Yeah.

Then maybe somebody will give you a ton of money for a killer idea. But even then, the value of the idea is driven by the talent of the person pitching it and the expectation that they can do something with it. They don't just pay you for the idea and file it. It's not just like, oh, you wrote this on a napkin at Jerry's Deli? Not going to happen. Yeah. So the kid, he was seeing dead people the whole time and the therapist is also a ghost.

Right. Boom. No, somebody had to write that crap. And someone's going to direct it. So the idea is wrapped up in the execution. Exactly. So in pretty much every field, ideas just are not worth anything. What is worth something is execution.

Because ideas are, well, they're just ideas, right? They don't guarantee the product will be good or that people. will actually want to use it, or that it'll hit the market at the right time, or that the company will make good decisions, or that it will respond to competitors the right way, or that it'll keep up with changes in the world, and so on, and so on. And ideas can be, they can be interesting, they can be exciting, they can be promising, but they rarely, if ever, are inherently valuable. Because they only create value when they exist. In order to exist, they have to be executed on and created. And I'd say that that's true, even more of apps, because an app is only useful

when it's an app on your phone that you can download and use. Right? It has to exist. So to answer your question, sadly, no, you're not going to be able to sell your ideas, almost with certainty, I can tell you that. If you want to make money off your ideas, your best bet is to build that idea, or at least work on them, take them as far as you can, see where they lead. Executing an idea, that shows you if it's actually good. The market then tests your idea to prove it out. And then while you're doing that, you uncover and solve, hopefully, a ton of problems and other issues along the way.

Sometimes you also find out that your ideas, they're not possible, or they're not that good, or they can't be done properly with current technology, or somebody else did it, but they did it better in a different way, and they changed directions because while they were working, they encountered something, or they got user feedback that changed it. And then you can take those lessons into your next idea or apply it to a new problem or share it with somebody else. And that's how it becomes valuable. People think Steve Jobs just like yelled at people until they made an iPhone. That's not how this works. It's just not. Bottom line, the people who achieve things, they're always the doers. They are not and almost never are just the

thinkers. Even philosophers who are, what, 99% thinking, they wrote it down. They turned it into something that other people can consume and they turned it into a product or at least they taught it to somebody else and applied it right so even people whose job is to think of new ideas they have to do more than just think of new ideas so if it doesn't work for them then your idea for an app that does xyz is it's not worth a napkin it's that you're thinking about writing it on okay so while i think it's awesome that you have all these ideas and i definitely encourage you to keep coming up with them just for the exercise of your brain and creativity they're just not going to mean much until you build them or you partner with people who can and then frankly they don't

really need you if you're not doing more after that. So I know that might be a letdown, but honestly making stuff and finding out what actually works, that is much more satisfying long term than just thinking up ideas. And when you actually make stuff, you don't just indulge your thoughts, you actually build new skills, you meet new people, you learn how to build a strong business. it's a lot more valuable than just, you know, what if there was an app that could tell you what hostels your friends have stayed at? Would Expedia buy that?

You know, whatever sort of idea you think you might have. Roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty, and dig in. That's my take. Good luck. By the way, y'all, before we go, some sad news here, my friend and friend of the show, Anastasia Gullivashkina, she sadly passed away this week. Some of you may remember her.

She called me a long time ago and emailed me, on Feedback Friday a long, long time ago because she told me that she had a brain tumor and that she was only going to have a few more years to live. And she wanted me to advise her on how she should spend those years, which actually is an incredible honor and a kind of a heavy lift, right? You don't want to get that one wrong. And we stayed friends over time. She actually came and visited me and we go-karted around San Francisco and did all these fun things. And she always had a great sense of humor about it. She actually called that her Make a Wish Foundation trip, which is dark, but also a, she just had a great sense of humor about the whole thing and a really good attitude about the whole

thing. And then I did a show that morning with Malcolm Gladwell, who she met and took photos with, and it's her favorite author, so I was just glad to be a part of that. We stayed in touch. She got a job with Elizabeth Warren, because, of course, everybody wanted her to go travel the world and do all these things that honestly were their wishes of things they wanted to do. And she wanted to make a mark on the world, even if she wasn't going to be part of it in a few short years, which I think is very admirable. So instead of going to Greece and backpacking around Europe, she went to Boston in the winter and told me she had absolutely no regrets because she was spending her final years with her friends and making a difference while she could. And she was

and is an inspiration. And her passing away last week, the world truly lost a good one, people. So treasure your friends, treasure your family, and most importantly, treasure your time on this earth, because some of us would trade it all for just one more day. And call your parents after work, y'all. Let the kids stay up past bedtime with an extra book, hug your best friend, take an extra loop around the block with your dog. You just never know how many more loops around the block you've got. I hope you all got some wisdom from today's show. And I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. We do this show for you. Go back and check out Ben Hardy and Robert Green if you haven't yet. And of course, I'm booking these great

people on the show using my network, using software systems and tiny habits. That's how I maintain so many great relationships with so many amazing people. I'm teaching you how to do that in our six-minute networking course and that course is free over on the thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course teaching you how to dig that well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them because if you need them, you're too late to build them. And the drills take a few minutes a day, kind of a no excuses type of thing. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger

on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I love hearing from you on every platform. You can also find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Ms. Rahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Barrett, Millio, Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions

are our own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. Never was a good lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And hey, if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we

gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. We've got a trailer of our interview with Moby, iconic musician and producer. This was a super real conversation about creativity, fame, mental health, money, and what really makes people happy and fulfilled. Moby was really open with this one, and even if you're not a fan of the music, I guarantee you will dig this episode.

I grew up in arguably the wealthiest town in the United States, Derry and Connecticut, but my mom and I were on food stamps and welfare. My first punk rock show was to an audience of one dog, and my first electronic music show was to Miles Davis. I wanted to stop the show unpatiently explained to the movie stars and the beautiful people that they'd made a mistake. They were celebrating me, but I was in nothing. I was a kid from Connecticut who wore secondhand clothes

in the front seat of his mom's car while she cried and tried to figure out where she could borrow money to buy groceries. Now it was 1999. I was an insecure husband, but we kept playing, and the celebrities kept dancing and cheering. The weird thing is things started to go wrong when I stopped feeling that way.

In 1999, I thought that my career had ended. Yeah. My mom had died of cancer. I was battling substance abuse problems. I was battling panic attacks. I had lost my record deal. And I was making this one last album. I was like, okay, I'll make this album.

I'll put it out. I'll move back to Connecticut. I'll get a job teaching philosophy at some community college. And then all of a sudden... The world embraced me. I handled fame and wealth really disastrously. It was so humiliating. I wouldn't trade any of it.

For more from Moby, including how he bounced back from a 400 drink per month booze habit, check out episode 196 of the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts.

Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.