The Jordan Harbinger Show - 722: Brian Brushwood | Scam Your Way into Anything

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

Brian Brushwood (@shwood) has spent the last 20 years entertaining and teaching people how to harness the deceptive (and self-deceptive) skills of scientists, spies, criminals, and con artists. He is the author of Scam School: Your Guide to Scoring Free Drinks, Doing Magic, and Becoming the Life of the Party. [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh pass through your earholes!] What We Discuss with Brian Brushwood: Why being interesting isn’t a gift — it’s a practice. How fixed action patterns help us get others to do what we want them to do. (Important note: for good — not evil!) How to control a conversation by asking the right questions. The best way to convince someone to help us? By making it their idea. Why we’re all susceptible to being duped in spite of our highly developed human brains — and how practicing magic can train us to be more resistant to the fraudulent. And so much more… Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/722 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Miss our two-parter with former Westboro Baptist Church spokesperson Megan Phelps-Roper? Make sure to catch up starting with episode 302: Megan Phelps-Roper | Unfollowing Westboro Baptist Church Part One here! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiruality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. When I learned the fundamentals of magic, there is a rhythm and pacing that you have to set things up. If you do a good magic trick, you very artfully set up all the walls around the person until you reveal the effect.

And by the time they see the effect and then they try to backtrack and figure out how you did it, they realize that they're completely locked in a mental cell. They can't remember the right part or they were looking at the wrong place. The moment a magician says, now we begin, you're already screwed. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most

fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with scientists and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional war correspondent to arms dealer or rocket scientist. And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better thinker. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about it, and of course I appreciate it when you do, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Topics like negotiation and communication, persuasion and influence, abnormal psychology, crime and cults, and more. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

Today, one from the vault with my old friend Brian Brushwood. This guy is incredible. He's the creator of Scam School. One of the first podcasts ever, like ever, they were in there when we started 15 plus years ago. Brian Brushwood has spent the last 25 plus years performing on stage, on TV, on the Internet, of course, and entertaining and teaching people how to harness the deceptive and self-deceptive skills of scientists, spies, criminals, and con artists. But he's also a great guy and can make all this very educational as well as entertaining.

Whether we're aware of it or not, certain factors, which of course will discuss today, are what shape our perceptions of the world. And if you don't learn them, they can be used to manipulate you as well. In this episode, we'll discover why being engaging isn't a gift, but a practice. We'll explore something called fixed action patterns and how they can help us get others to do what we want them to do, only for the power of good, naturally. We'll also learn how to control a conversation by asking the right questions, and we'll uncover the best way to convince someone to help us by making it their idea. All this and more trickiness with Brian Brushwood. Here we go. You've spent the last 20 years performing, first of all, yeah, the internet, but TV, I've seen you.

I assume you do some stage shows, or I know you do some stage shows. You've got this cool blend of entertainment magic is a word I always feel like is overused, so pardon me if that's not exactly what you're gunning for, but kind of like deception and trickery, but in a very cool, entertaining way that also educates people, hey, here's how you don't get burned by this by a bad person. Yeah, well, so everything started. I quit my day job back in May of 99 to tour with. with the punk rock blood and guts bizarre magic show that I suspected would play well at colleges

because when you say magic, you know, from 5 to 15, they think it's great and then from 15 to 25, it's not very cool. The idea of this kind of punk rock antithesis of what you normally expect from a magic show where some of the stuff is 100% real, you know, like the fire reading or hammering five inch nails in your nose or whatever.

And other stuff is totally fake, the mind reading or some of the sleight of hand stuff. And you're kind of constantly on your toes like, well, okay, which one is this, one because this seems plausible, but I don't know. That whole time I was on the road, I ended up educating a lot of people about the difference between science and pseudoscience and the way people could be psychologically manipulated. And I ended up writing a lecture called Scam, Sasquatch and the Supernatural that I also started touring with. Shortly before we had the

idea for scam school, I did a round of TV pitches for something. We did some development footage for something in a similar space to a lot of stuff out there now, but scams and cons and that kind of stuff. And I could just tell that there was something that was so slow motion about the television environment where I could watch these decisions made by committees that we were doing the obviously wrong way to handle stuff. But it's like, well, that's what this guy's job is and you got to do this or whatever. And it was so frustrating when they got a real bland product and passed on it that I just got to start hosting a show. And so I mentally, I wrote a list. Okay, what is the first thing people are going to want out of a host for a show? And then the first item was they need to have already

hosted a show. And so realizing that, I was like, okay, well then YouTube just popped and podcasting is new. I'm going to decide I have a show called Brian Brushwood on the road. Basically, it was a travel log cataloging one of my busiest tour schedules in the college market. Over that time is where I learned how to tell stories on the internet. I understand that what seems like a good idea when you're in front of the camera turns out to be a terrible idea when you're the one who has to edit it later. So you learn to back up, restart, make it easy for future you to fix stuff. And then out of that, once I got some experience, I realized what people wanted the most every time I talked to them is just to learn a couple of cool tricks themselves, to have

that opportunity to be the most interesting person in the room. Oftentimes the McGuffin is to pick up the girl or to get the girl's phone number or whatever. For me, especially being a married guy, I figured it would make more sense if the Mcuffin was a little more neutral. So it's all about winning a free beer at the bar. I got to be honest, when we launched scam school, I thought it was going to be just a first starter show, something that I would get my sea legs underneath me to present with. And then 10 years later, 10 years this year, Scam School is now we edited it into two half-hour pilots that are going to air in just a week and a half on the Science Channel now.

That's amazing. I'm looking forward to that. How did you get into this particular niche of magic, right? Everybody, of course, probably got into magic the way that other kids get into magic. But why did you decide, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm going to get into the psychological elements here, the manipulation elements. Why is that stuff important to you?

How come that stuck out first? That's interesting. Well, I think it's because when I learned the fundamentals of magic, there is a rhythm and pacing that you have to set things up. If you do a good magic trick, you very artfully set up all the walls around the person until you reveal the effect. And by the time they see the effect

and then they try to backtrack and figure out how you did it, they realize that they're completely locked in a mental, cell. They can't remember the right part or they were looking at the wrong place. The moment a magician says, now we begin, you're already screwed. And I found that fascinating. And I was utterly fascinated when I found that bleeding into other aspects of life. When I worked at the movie theater, when I was in high school learning magic, there was somebody who came in saying that he had a poker game later that night. He needed to get change for a 20. And meanwhile, his wife walked down to the other end of the counter and was asking about the candies. So the other guy walked down there.

And there was this rhythm and flow to the back and forth of, oh, no, no, no, I gave you that 10. Here, let me give you two fives for the 10. We'll switch these. Remember that? Okay, there we go. That balances out. That's even. And in that moment, there was this inherent trigger where I felt this chill and I was like, this feels like a magic trick. And I couldn't understand why. And now I realized it was because of the priming, because of the pacing, because of the carefully selected language also because I had been trapped in a cell bit by bit because after he left, we counted the till and I had lost $50. And I was like, that's amazing.

That's when I realized that the structure of a magic trick, that the art of deception was not limited just to magic itself. I wasn't there yet. Obviously, I got taken, but I realized that if I could educate other people, if other people knew magic the way I knew magic, then that would put them in a position where they would have that low-grade alarm ready to go off at all times. So I became fascinated with the structure and the psychology behind scams, partly to, you know, learn how to defend and how to tell other people to defend themselves, but also to enhance

the quality of my performance because those fundamentals, I realized like once I had written my stage magic show, I thought it was good, but I made the mistake of thinking that just because you had a good show, people would show up and react as if it was good. And then I realized that it's a three-hour con of sorts in that the moment you show up to a venue, you are being primed for what to expect. If you show up and there's a bunch of kids walking around and it's sparsely attended, then you are going to think, well, this is a crap show,

this guy just showed up and there's nothing good. But if you show up and there's a packed audience waiting to get in, there's giant banners announcing the accolades of the person who's about to perform, there's assigned seats and then the theater opens and you walk in and there's a video showing the highlights of this person's career and all the reasons you should have heard of him before now, that primes you in a place to where it tends.

teaches you to be behaved and it sets you with an expectation of, this is gonna be good and I'm gonna be amazed. And that is what made the biggest leap forward and the quality of my performances is recognizing that every venue is different and that what you need to do is guide the experience far before that moment you walk on stage. That makes total sense. It's amazing that the experience for a magic show, for example,

it starts when you walk in the door, it starts right when you get there. I've been to a bunch of magic shows, and now that you mention it, there is always a little something in the beginning. It's never quite like, okay, sit in theater seats, wait for show to start. It's always, go downstairs and have a drink.

And then one time server came by messed up our order. And then the guy running the show, the chief magician or whatever, came over and was like, I heard your order got messed up. I'll fix it. Don't worry. Thanks for coming out. And I thought, oh, that's cool. And I went back to that same place for a different type of show.

And what happened? The server came over, a different guy and messed up our order a little bit. And the head magician came over and said, I heard your order got messed up. Don't worry. I'll take care of it. And I remember thinking like, man, this place just can't get it together. And now in the back of my head, I'm like, wait, what was that about? Was there some little trick in there?

And you just never know, right? That's interesting. Well, and I think that's one of the delightful things about magic in general is it's one of the few spaces where it's inherent in the rules of the game that everything is up for grabs. That you can argue over whether the show begins the moment they buy the ticket, whether in the moment they walk into the theater, the moment the magician walks on stage. By the way, pro tip, if you think the show begins when the magician walks on stage, are probably wrong. I love the fact that it is an ethic.

and morally, utterly clean slate for you to play around in, using all the same methods of chicanery and deception that some of the filthiest, awfulest people on the planet use. This is really cool. You're giving your permission to be conned in a harmless way, whereas often, of course, the majority of cons happen, and they are,

they're zero sum, right? You lose and they win, and that's the idea. And I remember when I was a kid, I went to New York, maybe early high school for Model UN or something, and I went to a magic shop of all places. Now I think about it, an ironic place to witness a scam in some ways with the victim being the owner of the shop.

I was there talking with the guy at the desk about, I don't know, some trick or something. And a guy walked in and was like, you have changed for a hundred? And the guy said, no, sorry, we don't make change, but you can buy something. And the guy goes, great, give me a deck of cards. And they go, all right, and they pull out a deck of cards. And the guy hands him a $100 bill. And he goes, just keep the cards. He didn't touch the deck of cards.

And he walked out with a bunch of change. And the owner came running out of the back and was like, did that guy just pay for something with a $100 bill and not take it? And they're like, yeah, I sold him a deck of cards. He doesn't want it. And he's like, check the $100 bill right now. And as the guy was checking the $100 bill, the other guys ran out and looked for the guy, and they're like, he's gone.

And they were like, damn it, this is a fake bill. And they were cursing up a storm. And I thought, wow, of all the places to pull a scam with a counterfeit bill, a magic shop is a ballsy place to do it. Yeah. Well, the good news is that even if he got caught, magicians, not known for their physical fitness. I'm pretty sure the guy could about run him.

The reason he was probably gone is he was probably next door getting changed for 100 at a place next door. I mean, this is New York in the 90s. Those brief moments when you see how people take advantage of social structures like that are so extraordinary. There was one back, I don't know, 15 years ago, back when CD stores were still a thing, there was a Sam Goodies that I was in place

with a couple of magician friends. And we all saw the same thing happen. We all saw this group of like four or five teenagers getting ready to leave. They walked through, and they're sauntering through the checking for shoplifters equipment, and it beeps and flashes, and then they kind of look up confused.

They're like, what the hell is this? Sure enough, they have their bags checked out, and they're like, yeah, we don't know. And then they walk through, and it's fine. And I was like, that's weird. And then my friend who just happened to be looking at the right place in the right time said, oh, you missed the whole thing. I was like, what are you talking about?

There was this one lone middle-aged white guy who had a handful of two or three CDs. He lingered pretending to shop right near the front of the store, waited until the four or five African-American kids walked up to there as they're sauntering through and he just bullets around, whips around the side and just marches off into the mall. And so meanwhile, the brain hates the disconnect

between what am I saying and I want to solve what I'm seeing. So you hear the alarm go off, every eye in the place turns to the place and then you say, what is the picture you're looking at? You see, you know, some young kids, teenagers, you see lights going on, you're like, oh, they must have something. And that's where everyone goes.

and like a good magic trick, you can examine that, and you can find out that you're wrong about it, but by the time you find out you're wrong, it's far too late. There's no way for you to go back and reconstruct the rest of it. Right, this is our brain confirming a little bit of bias here, right? Because the alarm goes off and someone says, oh, okay, well, you know, I'll just check their bags, doesn't mean they're shoplifting. Once they assume that that's the case, right,

they're attracting much more attention than this middle-aged white guy who's shoplifting CDs, and he purposely, I'm sure, at some level, waited, and there could have been a middle-aged white woman who walked in and out, but he thought, no, no, no, I'm going to wait until it confirms other people's inherent bias. Because right now there's a lot of people listening going, what a jerk, what a racist. Actually, it's everyone else who's a little bit racist. And that's the thing is that it takes advantage of those cultural biases. And that's the other thing is those biases change over time, depending on the scam you're running,

you're going to want to take advantage of certain expectations people have. I just realize it makes it sound as if I'm giving active instruction on pulling up scams and cons, which is of course not what I'm about. What we should take from this instead of, unless you're a con artist, is that you should beware of when something seems to fit neatly into your little bias cupboard in your brain, and you go, yep, that must be what's going on.

Just give it a little bit of pause and think what else could be happening here. That might be one of my favorite trends to see in the last half decade or so is the increase in the number of very popular programs that deal with the fact that we're all just flawed wetware. You know, we have extraordinarily incredible brains, but they were built for certain jobs that were extremely relevant 50,000 years ago that maybe are not so great in an age of Twitter and

instant reactions. Right. Perfect information or close to perfect information that comes by instantly via private means, aka on our phone, things like that, global communication. We're just not wired for stuff like that. We're not wired for high technology that's more advanced than what we've evolved to deal with. so our brains aren't wired to go. Actually, maybe he just Googled this

and then there's a laser pointed at that and then there's a video camera pointed at that and that's why this magician can read the writing on the notebook underneath my chair. We're not wired for that. And yet, if we think about it hard enough, we can do it. And the reason that this is so important is because whether or not we're aware of it,

these factors, these little brain flavals, all of these biases, these shape our perceptions of the world. And if we don't learn them, they can be used to manipulate us. Absolutely. those things exist. You can either understand them and master them and use them

in a safe space like magic or trying to score a free beer or playing a game or trying to create a novel false memory as an experiment with your friends or you can willfully remain ignorant of them in which case you can take it to the bank that they will be used on you at some point.

You've said in, I believe it was on your YouTube channel or possibly I heard this during a previous conversation that we've had, but being interesting is in a gift, it's a practice. I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit because I think there's a lot of people think, oh, you're born charismatic or you're born a showman, but really it is a set of skills,

and this is one that you practice. Yeah, well, and part of it, at the core of all that is, you know, one of the biggest gifts anyone can have is being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Take up jet fighter pilot, right? This is somebody who has to get very, very uncomfortable, and it's such a rare and extraordinarily important gift

that only the best of the best get to ply these planes and so on. But when they're in the middle of pulling, you know, six Gs or whatever. They're not having a great day, but they understand they can back up and say, okay, what is happening to my body?

What is happening to my field of vision? How is that affecting their controls or whatever? By distancing themselves in the moment, they're noting everything. Now, you could do that socially because as we all know,

whether you're a shy person trying to come out of your shell, whether you're somebody who wants to become good at doing magic or writing or doing any endeavor along which there are big, big pain points that you're going to have to have to nap navigate. And if you can begin knowing that there will be moments of pain, but that you will use the

practice of being comfortably being uncomfortable, then there's extraordinary experiences waiting ahead of you. For example, when I first started in Magic, I had very little experience. I had a few tricks, and I thought, okay, well, what does everybody I respect in Magic have? Like, how do they get there? It's like, well, they all have experience. And I was like, okay, now, if I talked to them and I said, have you ever had an astonishing failure, will they have good stories or bad stories? And of course, they'll all have really good stories. For example, Teller wrote me in an email once talking about how they performed in the middle of a full-on race riot because they needed the money. And so they realized they were afraid to stop the show because they were afraid of not getting paid. And so they

went through the whole thing. I guarantee you, that was not a fun time for them. But that experience as painful and as horrifying as it was for them at the time led to them being more interesting. You know, we all live our entire lives for those last few minutes before we die and reflect back on what kind of life we had. And it'll either be an interesting life because you said, I am willing to eat a lot of garbage along the path to win and fail and try again and buy an awful lot of lottery tickets in life or you're not. There's not a value judgment about being one good way and one bad way, but I can definitely vouch for the fact that one is a more interesting way to live your life as opposed to the other. And by the way, there's not a case where

you become masterful in your art and suddenly you don't have to take risks or deal with failure again. After 20 years since I quit my day job and after we had scam school and after I finally had a TV show, I got reached out to do of all things participate in a reality dance competition show. And I cannot dance. I cannot dance. And I did not want to do it at all. Not one bit. I mentally wrote down a list like, okay, what are all the reasons you should not do this? And at the top of the list was because I don't want to, you know, other Brian in my head says, sorry, bro, man, that's not a real reason. We can't count that one. And so ultimately I said yes, I cringe to even look at all the footage now, but we did win one of the mini competitions. So it turns out that I am a more interesting

person for having faced that demonic fear in the bit of my heart. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Brian Brushwood. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book these amazing folks for the show, it's all about the network. I've got a lot of authors, thinkers, and creators here every single week, and I'd love to teach you how to make and maintain connections. The course is free over at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Yes, I want to teach you how to network at a non-shmoozy, non-gross way,

but I also want to help you inspire others to develop a personal and professional relationship with you. The course will make you a better networker, a better connector, and more importantly, a better thinker. That's all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. And by the way, most of the guests on our show already subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong.

Now, back to Brian Brushwood. Some of these concepts remind me of what Commander Hadfield, actually, who was on the show earlier and is a test pilot to use your exact analogy. He spoke about that a lot, compartmentalizing this, being able to kind of separate these things in your mind. I know that these concepts also lead back to your stage shows, not just becoming an interesting person, for example, but we talked about Chaldini's fixed action patterns.

Another guy was also on the show, super interesting thinker. Can you tell us about these fix action patterns and how these are used, what these are? Oh, sure. As a matter of fact, I'm sure many of your listeners have already read Robert Chaldini's amazing book, Influence. He just came out with a new one, 20 or 30 years later after the first one,

called Presuasion, which is excellent as well. Presuasion really talks about a lot of the stuff that I had figured out intuitively. I performed for a show in West Virginia, and I had developed a magic show that was intentionally countercultural running in the opposite direction of what every other magic show was doing. Turns out they wanted the very traditional magic show. When the show ended, some dude threw fruit at my stage, smacked out of my props. He did not like the show.

That was not fun, and on the six-hour drive back, I was like, okay, that was a miss. So what are the vectors? What do we know? From that, you replay it in your mind and figure out what could I have done next time or what were the warning signs. I should have noticed that what I was pitching

and what they were buying was not the same thing. Out of that came a lot of the priming stuff that I do in the show. These fixed action patterns are what Chaldeini calls these automatic stimulus response relationships. When you think of like animal mating behaviors,

you know, that doesn't just vanish from us. There are certain aspects of that that are mechanical. These are heuristics. is the best word for it. These are patterns that you slip into because on balance, they tend to work enough that it's like, okay, I'm gonna make this one association here.

Out of everything, Chaldeini mentions in influence. And some of them, you know, he talks about the liking fixed action pattern. If somebody likes you, they're more likely to grant a favor or something. If you are similar, if you both happen to have the same birthday, that kind of thing makes a difference.

There's also reciprocation, the idea that if you give someone a token, and it doesn't matter how big or small it is, is if you give them a gift, they will want to balance the scales. And in the case of scam school, what we do is give the gift of something interesting. So people ask, how do I begin performing magic at the bar?

And I say, well, do an old salesman's trick. Remember that the person asking the question is the one in charge of the conversation. So what I'll do, keep in mind, I'm the host of a show called Scam School, but you could steal this whole script and just talk about this show called Scam School that you saw. You're at the bar, just turn to literally anyone,

and just say, hey, I got a weird question. Do you know any good bar tricks? And now their answer will either be, if it's yes, then all of a sudden you get to be the one asking them to perform for you, which will make them excited and happy. But most likely they'll say, no, I don't know any. I was like, well, because I've been watching this show called Scam School, and this guy has got all these tricks.

Can I try one on you? Again, you're just asking questions. You do an opener to get them engaged, and then very quickly you build up value because you're essentially giving a free performance for five or 15 minutes, long enough, to build up value and make them feel at some level that they've received something.

They are in your debt. And then you come up with one of these unbustible puzzles that we do on scam school, these traditional bar scams, something that creates a social hook that you can offhandedly say, and if that is your card, I mean, that'd be worth a free beer, right?

And at this point, what you're doing is you're setting up a simple, socially appropriate way to set up pay for play, and they're more than happy to buy it because you've given them something of value first. But out of everything in the fixed action patterns that Chaldini wrote about, the one that I've realized learned the most about in the last five years has been social proof. Social proof is the reason that we have laugh tracks on television.

It's the reason that everybody wants to check with Yelp beforehand, because even though you don't know who these other people are, you know 500 people have given it a three, four, or five-star review. We assume that the crowd knows what they're doing, so we tend to follow along. and that was never more apparent to me than the time that my friend Justin and I faked a best-selling erotic fiction novel. And this is not even a joke.

The second scam school book came out right around the phenomenon of 50 Shades of Grey and at some point we had joked about like, well, maybe my next book should have a cover that looks like 50 Shades of Grey. And then we said, wait a minute, what if we just wrote a crappy knockoff of 50 Shades of Grey? Because there were crappy knockoffs of 50 Shades of Grey

populating that top 10 on the iTunes bookstore. And then we realized, wait a minute, what if we don't even write the book? What if we have the internet write the book? So we got on our comedy show, Night Attack, and we told the audience, hey, we want to write a book. We came up with character names. We'll write the first and last chapters. It's about a jilted lover in Silicon Valley who each chapter has sex with a different person to exact revenge on her fiancé that left her.

And everybody just wrote the most horrific over the top, like, oh, geez, these are our fans. and we collected it together, called it the Diamond Club, and put it up on the iTunes bookstore, and then we recorded a short video, put it up on Reddit, about how we were utterly puzzled and befuddled by this phenomenon, and that we wanted to try to play along. And so we said, here's what we're going to do.

We've made a book, we haven't read it, here's some clips of it. It's ridiculous, it's outrageous, but then again, so is 50 Shades of Gray, poorly written all those tropes. And it's like, but if you want to stir the pot, if you want to play with fire like we do, Here's what we're going to do. We're going to release it today.

Everybody buy it at exactly 2.30 p.m. It's 99 cents, and it should get into the top 10. Once it gets to the top 10, who knows, maybe it'll catch fire and confuse lonely housewives or something. And sure enough, the thing blew up to the front page of Reddit, then it exploded. And so we ended up selling tens of thousands of copies of this thing. And the amazing part was we thought we had already won. We thought the game was over.

We blew up the Death Star. But then this is the part I didn't realize. The power of social proof meant that because it was in the top 10, it tended to stay in the top 10. So all of a sudden, everybody who was buying 50 Shades of Gray, they're all like, oh, three, $10 books. Oh, this one's only 99 cents. And it's number four on the bestseller list. Well, I'll grab that one too. And so because so many people were buying going along with the crowd, obeying that social proof,

that eventually on that little line at the bottom that says customers also bought, it used to be all of our fans. books, you know, the scam school books and so on. But then over time, customers also bought became nothing but other romance novels. And we realized that we had finally reached the intended audience. You know, everybody who bought it as a gag, you know, they left a five-star review talking about as the best since 50 Shades Gray. And then people who felt like they were swindles, they gave it one star. But to me, the fascinating ones are the people who gave it three stars, People who never knew that this was a gag, who never knew that there was no Patricia Harkins-Bradley,

but they read the book and they were like, yeah, it's pretty good, it's got some steamy scenes. I give it a three. Like, that was amazing to me, and that's all straight up the power of social proof. That's incredible. And look, we don't even think of it as social proof. We think, well, of course I'm going to let other people vet

which novels and apps are the best. If I'm bored and I know I'm going to be stuck somewhere for a while and I'm sick of reading, which rarely happens, but I'm like, oh, I need some sort of mindless game, right? I don't look at every game in the app store. I just look for the top 10, and I download three of them, and then I play them for half an hour

until I get bored. Those games have millions of users who are doing the exact same thing. So our brains look at social proof, and we don't even think, oh, well, I'm being manipulated by social proof. We literally just think, this is how you're supposed to do things,

is because this is the way that this makes the most sense. It precedes that conscious thought. In Daniel Kahneman's book, Thinking Fast and Slow, he calls it System 1 and System 2. You got your one gut instinct, system, the one that just react, you just happen to know. It's like, yeah, no, of course, it's like that. Because I've seen this kind of problem before, and they always go like that, so it's got to be

like that. And then system two is the more plotting one, the one that says, hold on, let me go through, bleep, blop, bloop, yep, that's how you do it. Okay, they are not the same level of intelligence. One can be much more easily manipulated than the other. And in a world where we rely on both system one and system two, even a slight edge on, you know, one system or the other will definitely affect activity in the long term. Incredible. It's so interesting to see how our brains work in real time and then go, I'm not going to get tricked now

because I know how my brain works and then you just immediately follow right in line with what everybody else is doing. It's almost awareness still isn't enough, right? We still watch magic shows and think, okay, well, that part might have been actual magic. I mean, there's real things, especially with mentalism where you just, you can't figure it out

and you think, actually this person has figured out some sort of secret thing, even though you know, and they're telling you, It is a trick, especially Penn and Teller. This is a trick. I'm not really catching a bullet in my teeth. There's still a percentage of people who go, that's what they want you to think.

I think you just spoke some magic words that caused me to have an epiphany about why I'm doing what I do on scam school. Because a lot of scam school, a lot of my desire to reach out to non-magicians and get them seduced into magic is because I want scam school to be kind of the gateway drug that gets people into magic.

But the question is why. You know, some magicians who have a very scary, mentality, say like, we got enough of us. You're just polluting the waters. But I think morally it's important that people understand and not just understand, but perform magic. And I did not have words until just now during this interview for why. The reason is, is because there are a number of fraudsters out there. There are people who claim to have actual telekinetic powers, people who claim to be clairiviance or psychic or talk to dead people. Without exception, when under double-blind peer-reviewed circumstances, they are all proven to either be

playing the odds, outright deceiving people. When it came to debunking these things, legendary magician James Randy, he once put up $100 of his own money, then it became $1,000 of his own money, then $10,000 of his own money, then a million dollars of money from trustees that for years was run as the James Randy Educational Foundation. It was a million dollars, it was real money. You could see pictures of the money. You could see documents that forced them under law to give that money to anyone who could prove any kind of supernatural talent in a double-blind peer-reviewed test of their cooperative designing. And nobody came close. One of the things that James Randy would do is he would go on television shows and he would duplicate using magic methods,

the exact effects of certain people who claim to be psychics. He would play coy on the method because magic is a culture that values secrecy and they don't want all of their tricks ruined. Because these are used by a lot of magicians, he couldn't tell people how it was done, but he just had to say, well, no, it was done with non-magical means. And what, What that does, that appeals to system two. I hope I'm remembering the systems right. The slower plotting or the thing we think of as our conscious mind, you watch that and you say to yourself, okay, I now understand that this can be replicated in non-supernatural

ways. The hope is now they won't get fooled because they know they could be fooled. But I don't think that was strong enough. And I think that people still have a tendency to get suckered all the time. And I realize that by getting people into magic on scam school, what I'm really doing is, is I'm forcing them to practice and perform and actually automatize the maneuverings that make magic possible,

that you get people to say one thing while consciously thinking about doing something else. And as it becomes rote, it becomes more of that system one, that instinctive brain, so that what I want people is not to consciously know that they could be fooled, but instead to have attempted to fool other people enough in the safe space of magic

that they are fully equipped to where they don't need to engage their conscious brain to smell when there's something weird about the way change is being given or there's something odd about the way an offer is being made. It just suddenly feels instinctively

like this is a magic trick. I guess that's why I'm doing all this is because I want people to have that low-grade radar against fraud at all times because they've engaged in a benign form of fraud so much with their friends. to throw this back to what you mentioned earlier,

it was like when you got conned the first time and he said, this feels like a magic trick. There were little subtle things, as sort of a Malcolm Gladwell blink type thing where it's like you're not detecting this in real time, but it's maybe your brain saying, huh, this person's talking like they've done this before, so it doesn't seem as spontaneous as it would feel

if they were really just confused about the math. Also, this is pretty complicated math. They're staying on top of this certain complicated part, but seeming to lose track of the simple part, that doesn't seem right. either, but all your conscious brain thinks is, okay, I guess this person's confused and I'm going to help them out. And to clarify, system one is the brain's fast, automatic, intuitive approach, the blink system, if you will. System two, the mind's slower analytical mode where reason

dominates. So, right, comment are trying to get you into system two, which seems counterintuitive. Why would you want the brain in analytical mode where reason dominates? We want to get there, and then we want to trick it with emotion or something else or over too much stimulus so that the analytical processes fail because if we're in the fast automatic intuitive area, we might actually be able to keep up with somebody who's conning us or lying to us.

Right, well, and of course what they're doing is they're hitting both systems at the same time, and what they're really trying to do is we're all very, very uncomfortable with mystery. We don't like the superposition of knowing it could be anything, and I don't get to know which one it is. And that's why so many people after a magic show will seek to resolve that discomfort of not knowing how it's done by manufacturing a narrative. They will actively go to work and massage their memories of what happened.

They won't do it consciously, but they'll tell themselves over and over and over again. Maybe it starts with like Teller eats needles and threads them inside his belly. And there are people afterwards who would be like, oh, no, it's candy needles. By the way, this is all straight out of Pendelet's amazing monologue that he gives on fire eating. He says that it's the skeptics that are comfortable with the mystery and other people want to resolve it so much that they manufacture a narrative. And whether it's true or untrue, they will resolve it by massaging their memories and stuff to make that work. And so what the con man does is he creates a problem for system two, but meanwhile gives all the cues on system one that will instantly resolve it. The cues on system one indicate trustworthiness, openness, oh, he's in a rush.

he said, you know, he needed this. He gave a reason for this. He's a nice guy because, you know, he mentioned we both have the same birthday, all this stuff. All that speaks to System 1, that instinctive heuristic that spells trustworthiness.

And as a result, that shaped system 2 saying, yeah, it is kind of weird that he needs $20 for gas at this moment. But everything else feels right about this. So I'm just going to give him 20 bucks. I'm sure it'll be fine. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Brian Brushwood.

We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening. to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here, and I know those discount codes and URLs can be kind of tricky and annoying. They're always changing. All the sponsors are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. The page should be searchable and readily usable on your phone. We just redid it. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. So please consider supporting those who support this show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Brian Brushwood. How do you suck people into your magic act?

Can you paint the picture in our minds? Because you're obviously using these cues. Are you able to share any of these things? Yeah, sure. Well, I was lucky enough to build my stage magic show outside of the bubble of magic. I did a couple of magic competitions for little things, but in general, I wanted to perform outside

of the traditional venues for magicians. So when I got started, I would perform just off of 6th Street. It was, first of all, on the street. Again, there would be a band that would take a break and I would go up and do 15 minutes and then pass the hat. and I realized that was a really challenging venue. Here I was, I had no tech,

I had no way to prime the audience to convince them that they were really there to see me. I was an invader at somebody else's show. You had this entire room that band plays for an hour and a half, they say, we're going to take a break, and then I get on stage, and I realized my priming needs to begin immediately the moment I walk on stage.

I knew I would be doing a straight jacket later, but I needed to engage everyone. So I bought one of those gigantic, old-fashioned marathon timers, the ones that they would use at literal marathons, I bought one used for like $800, and I put it up on the side because I knew that even though I was acting like I was just moving stuff on stage, I was setting up a question and an expectation.

I was speaking between the lines, something's going to happen, whatever it is is going to happen. And then I would bring out, you know, a bed of nails set it up on stage. I would take a board with nails all over it, and I would crack the stage in front of them for about five minutes. And then when it was time to start the show, I didn't want to push them.

You could push or pull. In the early days, I would say, hey, could somebody from the band, somebody they know, could they like, you know, talk me up and then get it going or whatever? That works to an extent. That gets you the first 30 seconds or whatever,

but that's the push. And the moment that their friend from the band is no longer on stage, very few people feel a need to really give you the courtesy and full attention. So what I did is I wanted to pull them, so I had no introduction.

So I would get up and set everything up, and then I would light a torch and just spin it in my hands. And of course, in a darkened theater where people are normally accustomed to seeing music, people over the bar, there's noise or whatever, you can kind of feel this bubble of around three to 13 feet that you instantly have those people's attention,

except for a few stragglers. And that's what I think of as the nucleus of crowd dynamics. No matter what situation I'm in, whether it's a community college and I'm performing in a hallway, whether it's street performing, whether it's at a trade show, whether it's in the middle of a VIP dinner at a conference, I always seek to make a nucleus around me.

And in this case, in this venue, it was to light the torch and just spin it slowly, kind of lazily, and then wait until it felt maybe 15, 20 seconds where you could tell enough people had gotten quiet that you felt this ripple, and then I would just put one finger up to my lips and go, and it was the most powerful thing. It was like this wave comes over everything,

because there's fire on stage, there's clearly something crafted, now you're being told very gently to shush, and then I begin my fire reading presentation. Every single thing in that fire reading routine is built because it doesn't ask anyone from the audience for anything whatsoever. I can perform that full routine in its complete for a wall,

and it doesn't matter. The purpose for that is for me to tell the story, the history of fire reading, and then I do a joke or whatever, and there's brief moments where I just kind of comment, like, and then this guy did this trick, and then there would be a pause that I'd say, like, you know, his audiences went freaking nuts.

It was amazing. So there's a slight suggestion that if you've enjoyed reciprocation, if you have enjoyed the four or five things you've seen me do up in this first two minutes, it's okay to clap. And then when they do clap, they're immediately rewarded with like,

now we're talking. And then we keep on going through the story, the history of fire reading. And then we get to the end of that routine where it's always dead silent. Every single eye in every space is staring right at it. As I say, oh, I got one more. Let me try this one for you.

It's one of the hardest things I know, and then it gets a big reaction. And then at that moment, I now need to craft their expectations as to what this is and what they're watching. So I always ask the same question. We have an important distinction to make. We can either try some traditional magic or we could try some freaky stuff. And of course, 100% of the time, everyone just shouts freaky stuff. And that is so important because the next phase of the show is super gross side show stuff. I'm going to hammer a nail in my face. I'm going to stick a nail in my eye. I'm going to cut off my tongue and there's going to be blood everywhere. It's important because of that consistency. This goes back to Chaldini. Chaldini did an experiment in one neighborhood

where he tracked recycling rates. And in one neighborhood, he just said, hey, do you recycle? Okay, he took a survey, great. In the other neighborhood, he did the same survey, but then people who said they recycle, they got a nice-brained certificate

to hang up in the place to remind them and thank them for being a good citizen who recycles. It's very difficult to look at that sign, to know your own actions, and to know what you said, and then not recycle. So as a result, those neighborhoods had more recycling. Likewise, it's very difficult for me to ask the audience,

what do you want to see, traditional magic or freaky stuff, and have everybody immediately shout freaky stuff. Once that happens, they don't get to pull all the way back and go silent or dead when I start doing something gross. They definitely asked for it. They have both social proof because everybody cheered for it. The clapping is coming along, and we've primed the stage for the rest of the magic routine.

It would eventually go on until I did my straight jacket escape. Again, I didn't want to hit them up out of nowhere afterwards to say, hey, by the way, I need money, I'm going to pass the hat. So instead, I set it up as a challenge where I said, if I don't escape under two minutes, I will not pass the hat, and I won't ask any of you for a dime for today's performance. But if I do, all I ask is that each of you leap to your feet, yelling and screaming, and, you know, give me the standing ovation I've always dreamed of

or whatever. So you've set up this contract, and so at this point, by the time the show is over. I've escaped just in time, you know, maybe a couple seconds right up to the edge. And then you get a whole room

of people jumping up occasionally. Sometimes it really lands. When the next thing out of my mouth is, you guys are the best. Thank you so much. You know, hey, I'm going to walk around and pass a hat. If you enjoy the show,

you know, I'd love to have whatever you got. There has been between the lines, a contract and an escalation that hopefully in a benign nature puts people in a state of mind where it's like, wow, this guy gave me a lot. He virtually never asked

anything of me, although truthfully I was asking things of them at all times, but constantly, you know, you fill the bucket up, then you make a withdrawal. By the time I would pass around, you can make a decent, what seemed like a mint to me at the time, you could make a good 50 bucks or whatever. It's incredible how this is something that you would have had to spend years and years refining. And I'd love to hear a little bit about that process because you didn't just think, oh, I should ask this question. What's your thought process like when you're like, all right, I got to get them fired up for this. What questions can I ask? Or is it even more? more rudimentary than that?

Where you're just, are you brute force testing is? It seems to me like you would have to think, how do I get people to think a certain way? Are you consciously using questions? It seems like you do use a lot of questions, actually. Well, keep in mind that everything I've done, I learned by trial and error, it's only been in the last decade

of reading all this psychological stuff that I realize in so many ways, magicians are like folk scientists of psychology. 500 years ago, nobody knew what genetics were, but if you ran a farm, you kind of figured out what the best practices were to get, you know, hybridized foods that had bigger yields. Nobody knew why it worked.

They just knew that it worked. Magicians very much the same way. You're there in the room, you feel the vibe, and you're like, I don't know why this always gets a laugh, but it always does. So I'm going to keep doing it, and eventually you figure out. It took me 10 years before I understood

why people laugh throughout my whole show. I don't tell any jokes. I don't tell any jokes of the entire show long, and yet people tell me it's the funniest show that they've seen and so on. And I felt guilty. I felt like a fraud until I understood I was doing some reading on the evolution of humor.

The reason we laugh is because, you know, back in the Savannah days, you're there with a tribe of other hunters, you're there out in the woods, and then you hear a branch snap off to the side. Instantly everyone freezes. Instantly everybody's skin runs cold because you don't know if there's going to be

a saber-tooth tiger or whatever. And in that moment, then you see a, you know, a cute little chinchill. a wander past or whatever. So what did they do? Even in a free language, I assume, I'm making this up, but you laugh.

And laughing is a cue that says it's okay to release the tension and everyone else laughs. Like, isn't it funny that we were so tense, but it turned out to be just this cute little rodent. The same thing was what I was intuitively doing on the stage magic show the entire time is I'm constantly putting myself in the threat of perceived danger.

And just at that moment, when the tension is tightest, I'll make a self-deprecating comment or just point out the absurdness of it or just create any sideways moment that gets people to release that tension. As a result, when I'm doing the nail in the eye gag, there's this moment that sometimes the room

just goes completely cold and I think to myself like, oh, you're gonna thank me later. You're gonna tell me that this is the best part of the show. And sure enough, that more often than not, that turns out to be the case. I'm still focused on your questions. You and I talked about this a little bit pre-show,

and you'd mentioned, I think even earlier in this show, Salesmen say something like the person asking the questions is the one in charge of the conversation. How can we practice that skill on our own so that when it matters, right now we can practice in low stakes so that when it matters we can own a high stakes conversation? So for me, the transformative moment, like I had heard that old adage and I understood that when you, it's a challenging thing to pick up the phone and make a cold call and just try to get someone into a headspace where they're ready to possibly book you for a gig or whatever.

but it wasn't until, of all things, at the Las Vegas Hilton, where they had something called the Star Trek experience back in the day. You know, you did the theme ride, and then they had this themed bar, quarks bar, and then, you know, sitting there eating a hamburger that's cost too much, and then out walks a dude with a giant plastic forehead on, pretending to be an alien. And I'm just like, oh, I don't want to talk to alien man.

He's pretending like he owns this bar, and it's very, oh, so weird. And you watch him going table to table, and then finally it comes up to us, and I'm like, oh, this is going to be so awkward, it's going to be so awkward, and he just says, hi, where are you guys from? And I think to myself, oh, I know that. Austin.

And he immediately says like, oh, Austin's lovely. I once went to Barton Springs. Is Barton Springs still there? And I'm like, oh, I know the answer to this. Yes. Before I knew it, I was having a totally pleasant conversation, and I really enjoyed the five minutes I spent talking to an actor with a plastic forehead on pretending to be an alien

because he expertly set up, easy questions that always kept the conversation going. People think that the way to keep a conversation going is to learn to be able to bloviate like I'm doing right now, just speak constantly to a mic, even though I'm in the room by myself. There are people who can do that. That's not the most universally beloved form of discourse that is out there. And instead, if you can ask questions that move things closer to what you want to talk about or and make other people feel important, And what it does is it raises the fidelity of understanding between the two of you.

If one of you asks a question, hey, can I borrow the lightboard? And the other person says no, then that's it. You're screwed. But if you instead say, hi, I'm doing a kid's charity over in the gymnasium

and we notice that there's no lights on. It looks like you guys are going out. Is there a way to get the lights on? And then now notice, I'm not asking to borrow the light board. That's what I would have assumed would be the way to do it, because I know how to turn it on the lights. There's no light board here. I need a light board.

And then that guy just says, no, I don't know who you are. I'm not going to give you a light board. So instead you begin with, hey, it looks like you're here for a speech tournament or something. Do you have like just three minutes to listen to me? Explain my problem, walk through. What are the things that are possible? And then finally, for me, this is, by the way, I'm talking about a real situation that happened where I realized that I had communicated uneffectively because I was asking for a lightboard

and I didn't even want a light board. What I wanted was light. And I never got the chance to really say that because I hadn't asked enough questions to find out how much bandwidth does this person have, what are they capable of doing, how interested are they on helping? And then ultimately the final question oftentimes is like,

okay, I feel like you understand my problem. If you were me, how would you handle it? All of those little back and forths increase the opportunity for both sides to understand the other person so that they can both ask for the favor or get to success for both parties as fast as possible.

I love the idea of not necessarily directly asking for something you need, but instead placing them or placing ourselves in a position where things naturally flow to us. I think the expression is water flows downhill. And of course, people want to solve problems with the least amount of effort and things like that.

Tell us about your phone technique, about changing our language to shape other people's response. This is a brilliant little practical that I think people can try to use this week as long as they're on the light side and not the dark side. It has been amazing to me to see how many of the techniques of good communication

that make magic work also work in very, I don't know, menial ways, whether it's dealing with a customer service rep in person or whatever. The biggest mistake I see people do is asking any question that it is possible for people to say yes or no to. They're hoping for a yes, but a no is possible. And then they just say no.

Once that happens, that's like getting checkmated in the very first move. Instead, what you need to do is speak honestly and directly, have a good discourse back and forth, but get to a place where they fully understand your position. Because if you ask, can you just extend this warranty or can you validate this purchase? Can you remove this fee? Their default answer is always going to be no. Because no is the easier of the two options. Yes means they have to open up the system and they have to bleep-blop bloop and they have to request authorization. They have to avoid the so-and-so. That's trouble. So when you, you say, will you remove the fee, yes or no, what you're really asking is, would you rather

go through a bunch of paperwork, or would you rather tell me no? And the answer is they're always going to want to tell you no. But instead, if you refuse to get straight to your real question, but instead, begin with a couple of lines, get their name, remember their name, talk to them directly as if they're an actual human being. You can hate the machine, but love the cog. It's not the cog's fault that the machine is garbage. It's not their fault that you spent four hours and ultimately got to a place where somebody told you a lie to get you off the phone. But it is important that you present this full story. So I always begin, when I'm dealing with an issue that I'm super frustrated with,

the moment they get on the phone, I make sure I get their name. It's Janelle, hi, Janelle, I'm Brian Brushwood. I need a superhero. Do you have just a few seconds for me to kind of bring you up to speed on what's going on? Now, of course, this is a yes, no question, but it is her job to say yes. She can't do her job by saying no. So we get her saying yes. I'm like, great.

Oh, do you need a customer number before we get started? Yes, of course she does. So she says yes. So I give that. I'm like, I don't know what's in here, but here's what's happened so far. And so I explain the story thus far. Then I still don't ask a question. If I do ask your question, it's to make sure she follows everything.

Then I explain the challenge, the reason that everything I've done so far isn't working. And then I explained the deadline that is coming up. I explain about the boss who's going to fire me unless I can come through. I explain about all this stuff, and then finally I get to a place, now that I've given you all the information, doctor, what is it you recommend I do? I never asked for them to remove the fee, never asked them to do anything. What I did was I gave them a full analysis of my problem, and I asked them for a diagnosis. I didn't say, what can you do for me? I said, what should I do? and the answer can't be get off my phone.

The answer can't be, call someone else. The answer has to be, at this point, the easier of, now they're not deciding, do I want to do paperwork or do I want to tell this guy to bug off? I guess bug off is still on the table, but that's the least attractive because now they become a part of this story and because you've established that you know her name,

that she will be named as part of this. So now it's like I could do 30 seconds of paperwork and just take care of this guy, or I can invest time, energy, and effort to tell a story to argue with him or whatever. And once they understand the story, oftentimes the easier of the two solutions is to just grant your wish.

Not that they're doing it in a begrudging way. Hopefully, if you've done your job correctly, you've explained your situation to the extent that they feel really good because it feels good to help other people. And when you present someone with that opportunity to do that, then you set both of yourself up to have a good exchange and to both come out winners.

So never ask that yes or no question when you need help because since people want to solve problems in the most easiest way, and by solving problems, they mean just get rid of the problem, whether or not it helps you, then the easiest way is always to say no. But if we can structure a conversation in which the easiest solution is for them to actually handle it for us, now we're cooking with gas. Think about it this way. Every time you ever talk to a customer service rep, both of you have a problem. You have the problem you called about, and they have the problem of talking to you.

And so you want to make the easiest way to solve the talking to you problem to be to just help you out and fix this thing. Brian, thank you so much, man. This has been super fun. Absolutely, man. I'm glad we finally made it happen. I've got some thoughts on this one. But before I get into that, I wanted to give you a preview of one of my favorite stories from an earlier episode of the show. Megan Phelps Roper, she used to belong to one of the most hateful religious cults in America, the Westboro Baptist Church.

She was born into this church, and she later escaped. To hear her tell the story firsthand is really incredible. I started protesting when I was five years old, but even at that first picket, there was a sign that said, gays are worthy of death. So God hates facts is what Westbro's message that we became known for. We were the good guys, and everyone outside the church was evil and going to hell, and we had the only message that would bring the world any hope. We had to go and warn people.

These terrible things are happening, and if you want this pain to stop, then you have to change because God isn't going to change. After the September 11 attacks, we had the sign that said, thank God for September 11. What were we thinking? This massive crowd comes down. We were at this corner of this intersection of these three streets. By the time they actually reached us, we're just enraged. There was no space between us and them. It got really dicey.

One of my cousins gave his signs to some. somebody else and started standing on top of a trash can, pretending like he wasn't with us. They were, again, incredibly intense because obviously the circumstances are so sobering. It brings me incredible sadness to think about now. I can't do this forever. My family, they would refuse to have any contact with me at all once I left. Somebody that we had confided in, sent a letter to my parents and told them that we were planning to leave. And then that email came in and we left.

For more with Megan, including the details of her harrowing experience and escape, check out episode 302 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Hope you all enjoyed that one. That one, man, we recorded that a long, long time ago, the better part of a decade, but he is always doing fun stuff. This guy's like the kid that never grew up and is now doing all of the stuff you wanted to do as a 12-year-old. I mean, he's blown up cars.

I don't know why, whatever that has to do with scams, I have no idea, and I feel a little silly saying it, but who doesn't want to do that? As you've heard, this guy is fantastic at articulating exactly what it is in terms of the psychology that he's using with scam school, with magic, with the illusions. He's doing it right, and a great big thank you to Brian Brushwood. His shows are always fascinating. You can find a lot on YouTube, but we'll link up the rest right there in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Books from all guests at Jordan Harbinger.com slash books. And please do use our website links if you buy books from any guest. It does help support the show.

Transcripts are in the show notes. Videos are up on YouTube. dealers, deals, and discount codes, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or connect with me right there on LinkedIn. I find that many of you on the other social networks are insane. But LinkedIn? A lot of high-quality folks there.

I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same system, software, and tiny habits that I use every single day. That's our six-minute networking course, which is free and will remain free. That's the plan anyway. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it, teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. And hey, most of the guests you hear on the show, they subscribe, they contribute to that course.

Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millio Campo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends

when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's into illusions, magic, scams, definitely share this episode with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way.

same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got

thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.