The Jordan Harbinger Show - 726: Helping a Guy Whose Wife's an Escort on the Sly | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

Is your 10-year marriage worth saving when you've just discovered your wife has been working as a "non-intimate" escort behind your back? We'll try to find an answer to this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/726 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Is your 10-year marriage worth saving when you've just discovered your wife has been working as a "non-intimate" escort behind your back? You and your significant other live together and work from home together, but you find the way he spends his downtime questionable. How can you overcome the frustration this creates for you? Is it wrong to skip sending a gift to your estranged daughter for her wedding to which you've suddenly been invited after she's avoided communication with you for years? What can you do to help a significant other who's dealing with debilitating depression? [Thanks to Haesue Jo, Head of Clinical Support at BetterHelp, for helping us with this one!]  While you've always been focused on building your business and a better life, your mother's unexpected death has left you making numerous erratic, short-term decisions. How can you regain your can-do mindset and get back on a productive, long-term-oriented track? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Miss our conversation with Arthur Brooks about the merits of learning to love your enemies (especially during these divisive times)? Catch up by listening to episode 211: Arthur Brooks | How Loving Your Enemies Can Save America here! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday, producer, the emotional hyperloop connecting up these far-flung lands of life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories,

secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become, a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's

really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, welcome. On Fridays we give advice, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Bill Nye, the science guy,

surprisingly polarizing guest, actually. We talk about ways the planet might end, science literacy, keeping your curiosity as an adult. Interesting guy, but again, wow, yeah, a little bit more flack for that guy than I expected. And Paul Holes, who caught the Golden State killer and just an amazing interview with a guy who cracks some cold case murders, especially really gruesome serial killers. If you like true crime, you're going to love this guy. He is a phenomenon, absolutely. And yeah, pure nightmare fuel that episode. No kids in the car for that one. Before we dive in today, I just want to say a quick word about the question we took a few weeks

back from a guy whose wife was depressed and addicted to her phone and neglecting the kids and she was hitting some of the kids when they would hit her to get their attention. He didn't feel comfortable leaving the kids with her if he filed for divorce. That was episode 708, by the way. And in our response, we talked about a bunch of ways he could help his wife wake up and work on herself, but a bunch of you wrote in afterwards saying, yeah, fine, but come on, she's hitting the kid that's abuse. He's got to divorce her. He's got to leave with the kids and file for sole custody, end of discussion. To be fair, y'all make a really good point. Gabe and I may have been a little too compassionate, a little too patient because, well, this woman's

obviously, she's suffering, right? She needs help. And we thought it was worth at least trying to get her that help so they could work on their relationship and co-parent. But yeah, at a certain point, we agree. If this woman is straight up hitting the kids and leaving marks, that's abuse and they need to be protected. So just wanted to set the record straight a little bit. We don't know how much this guy has already tried to help his wife. We don't know how severe the hitting actually is on regular occasions here or on that occasion. But if she refuses to get better, then yeah. He certainly has grounds to petition for sole custody, and maybe that is the right move. But as you all know, Gabe and I are always partial to working on a situation before abandoning it. And that's the spirit

in which we approach the question. We appreciate all the emails, though. We love it when you guys keep it real, help us see things from a new angle, and we did share several of our emails with the guy who wrote in, so he got a lot more advice than he bargained for. And some of you asked, would you have given the same advice if it was a woman and a guy was hitting the kids? And I will say for myself, I don't know. I think that's a legit concern. I think I was more forgiving of a woman hitting the kids than I would have been of a guy, which is, you know, that tells you something about society and where my biases lay, because we do know that in domestic disputes, the abuse rate is similar, but men do more damage, but I don't really know if that counts when we're talking about kids,

because emotional damage is just as bad, if not worse, than physical damage when it comes to abuse. Anyway, we've got some fun questions this week, so let's dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailback? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. A week ago, my 32-year-old wife of 10 years called me tearful and very shaken up because she had just barely escaped a near-rape situation. She then confessed to engaging in non-intimate escort activities for a long time, something I missed because my work requires a lot of travel and I'm only home about 50% of the time. My wife has admitted that she does not intend to stop and claims that it's technically not cheating since she's just doing it for the money and is

not having sex. To complicate matters, we have two very young kids and a new house that is probably underwater. Also, when we got married, my wife made me cut ties with my female friends. She even went through my entire Facebook message history and started a fight over some of the messages and pictures shared in past relationships. I am 100% confident that if I had admitted to fostering any sort of relationship while we were together, she would have lost her shit and probably divorced me. But this is wrecking me. I'm not sure how to move forward. I still love my wife and don't want to leave her, but at the same time, I feel disrespected, emasculated, and angry. Is this marriage worth saving?

And how do I reconcile my conventional views of marriage with reality? Signed, thwart this sordid sport, or support my escort as she consorts and distorts? Damn, this is brutal. I can't even imagine what it would be like to learn something like this about your spouse. It is shocking. And what's shocking isn't just the discovery that your wife is an escort, even if it is just accompanying men to dinner or whatever, in some ways the worst part is realizing that your spouse has a totally secret life that you didn't even know about and that they're a totally

different person than who you thought you married. Yeah. That is unsettling. And yeah, it's disrespectful. It's emasculating. It's definitely manipulative. This is just intense. I'm really sorry that this happened to you, man.

Gabe, before we try to diagnose all this, I just got to ask, do you buy the whole non-intimate escort thing? Do you really think she's just chit-chatting with these guys over a couple of Nogronians or whatever? Oh, I hesitate to say for sure because who knows, maybe she's telling the truth. I mean, there are escorts who are just escorts. But from everything I've read about that world, you know, like reading stories on Reddit about this kind of thing, what I gather is that the opportunity to do sex work is right there. Like, okay, you accompany Seymour to the Philharmonic or whatever, but the likelihood that Seymour is going to want to take that party back to his beach house afterward, probably pretty high. Yeah, Seymour is not just there to talk about his golf swing, that's for sure. Yeah, Seymour's going to want it over the pants, H.J. after the nutcracker, you know, minimum.

The old Skyler White. Honestly, I agree. Is that breaking bad? That's a breaking bad reference, yes, yeah, yeah. But she gives them that like crusty birthday handjob. Yep, exactly. Hey, look, I agree. Seymour's there to smash, period.

My understanding is that the opportunity is, it's often on the table, right? Yeah, that's my understanding too. I mean, look, I don't have a lot of personal experience in the area. And I don't mean to twist the knife in deeper here. I know this guy's hurting and I really feel for him. But I also think it's just important that he has a clear picture of what is going on or maybe going on here. Well, I'm also wondering how this near rape situation happened. That's a very vulnerable position to be in.

I mean, what are the chances that that happened in the dining room of a McCormick and Schmicks? Yeah, slim to none. Generally, they run a pretty tight ship over there at McCormick and Schmock. I got to think that that happened in a car or a hotel room or something. I mean, okay, maybe that's unfair. I know people can be attacked anywhere. Of course they can. But near rape, that is a situation.

strong word, that's not happening in row C at the frickin Hollywood Bowl most of the time. That's probably happening when you're alone with the person. And if you're alone with the person, I find it hard to believe that that client isn't a John when you are an escort. Look, I want to be very clear here. If you find yourself alone with a guy, it doesn't mean you've done something wrong. If you're an escort and you're alone with a guy who is your client. Is he potentially a John? Is he potentially a John? Yeah. I mean, that's a fair question, I think. Not a crazy question to ask, not a crazy assumption to make. But also, maybe he picked her up and dropped her off and there was no sex involved, but he still attacked her in the car or something. Yeah, also a possibility. So we don't know for sure if she's lying at all. But I do think it's fair to say there's a good chance that this isn't the full story. And that's got to be fair too. I mean, this is a woman who lied to her husband for what sounds like years about being an escort.

And she only came clean because she was so traumatized by the attack that she had to reach out. This is not somebody who's been playing everything above board the whole time. Right. She might have told him the mild version of events just to break the news gently. Absolutely. She needs his sympathy. She needs his support. She's not going to drive him away by going full girlfriend experience and being like,

by the way, our whole marriage is a lie and this bad thing happened to me. Let's talk about it. Never. So the million dollar question is, is this marriage worth saving? I mean, I think a lot of damage has been done here. To me, the fact that she's a sex worker or possibly a sex worker isn't even the main problem. It's the fact that she lied about it and what that says about her and what it says about the state of their marriage. Yeah, I want to be, again, very clear, no shade on sex work.

I mean, look, I'm not going to pretend. It's not complicated and confusing. I'm sure it makes romantic relationships very tricky to navigate for people in that industry. But this is this behavior. This is highly manipulative. Yes. And profoundly unfair to him. He didn't know anything about this before.

She's been lying to him. Yeah. So she's made him feel emasculated and misled in addition to all of this other, all this stuff going on here. That's a lot to work through. But Jordan, it's not even that, right? They have two young kids. They have financial problems that it sounds like they're struggling to deal with.

Well, to be fair, that may be why she's giving over the pants, HJs to all these Seymors in the first place. You got to make those monthly payments, bruh. Fair enough. But do you think she was actually using the money to help pay the big? bills, he probably, I mean, he would have wondered where all that money was coming from, right? That is a good point. It's actually even darker to think that she might not have been using this money for the family, but that she was just doing it for herself. That's a whole other discussion. We don't really have evidence either way on this one. But you'd think he'd be like, hey, why are you making $400,000 a year all of a sudden? Where's it coming from?

But also, I love that this woman makes him cut ties with all his female friends. Oh, yeah. She goes through all his Facebook messages. She picks fights with him about messages he sent. before they even got together, she would leave him if he ever had an affair. Yeah, projection much? Jeez. Yeah, she has this guy under her thumb. And meanwhile, she's out eating shrimp kisses with Seymour every other Saturday. It's just so transparently toxic.

This woman has some real issues. Yeah, exactly. Look, if they're going to work on this marriage, if it's even worth trying, and there's a big if there, they're going to have to deal with all of that. The jealousy, the paranoia, the projection, the deception, the deception. the financial stuff, how they're raising their kids, what are they going to tell their kids? On top of the whole escort thing, plus the fact that he has conventional views about marriage, and that's incompatible with what she does for a living, how did this even happen?

My question for you is, do you want to work on all that? Do you think this is a relationship worth salvaging? Well, I'm guessing his answer right now might be yes, because he still loves her and he doesn't want to leave her. Sure, but that's because he's in the middle. of this shitstorm and he can't read the label from inside the jar. That's my opinion. Yeah. So my take is get some distance, man. Take some time apart. Re-evaluate. I think you are way too close to this situation to see it clearly. Your feelings are raw, understandably so, and that makes it hard to be clear-headed. Go stay with a friend, man. Check into a motel six,

ideally not in a room next to your wife during the busy shift. Talk to your buddies. Go see a therapist. and start talking, man. I think you need time and insight before you can make the right move. But look, spoiler alert, I think time and insight are going to lead you to the conclusion that this marriage is ruined and you need to move on. There I said it. I don't see how they can recover from this. I don't. Yeah, well, she literally said she's not going to stop escorting. So as long as he has a problem with that, then yeah, I don't really see a way forward here either. But honestly, the escorting, again, it's almost the least of their problems. I mean, if she were a lot of, loving, communicative, fair partner who just happened to have this secret life, which is an absurd

and unlikely scenario, I know. But if that were somehow the case, I might say, okay, this is incredibly messed up. You guys have a ton to talk about, but maybe you could try to work on it. But this woman, man, just sounds like a nightmare. Legit nightmare. Red flags, left and right, from the jump. Me, I would have bailed when she started reading my Facebook messages. Game over. Yeah, you poked someone named Melanie in 2006. Who's Melanie? Yeah, like, no thanks. I'm not having that conversation. So my last thought is, as much as your wife is in the wrong here, I would also take this opportunity to think about why you chose this person. You know, you obviously didn't know that she would one day be an escort when you met, and it's obviously not your fault that she chose to do this. But you did choose to ignore or at least tolerate a lot of questionable behavior, the envy, her control, her paranoia, and probably a bunch of other stuff we don't even know about. Again, I'm not trying to twist the knife here, but we do have to be fair. There's work for you to do here, too. completely gave. This whole crisis is incredibly painful, but it's also an opportunity for him to

understand his own patterns, his own choices, and start to sort through everything that led him here. And I understand he might have thought he was getting one thing and got another, but yeah, there's a little, there's a foot in the door here. I hope you get to do that. I hope you get to examine all this. Again, I am so sorry that you're going through this. It must feel awful. But stuff like this, it just doesn't happen in a vacuum. So you've got to do. do the forensics, man. Trace this back. Go deeper into yourself. That's why this had to happen, right, so you can grow. That's the cocktail sauce on this juicy shrimp kiss of a situation. We're wishing you the best, man. Seymour, not so much. That guy sucks. Your wife, she's on her own

journey. So good luck, my man. Gabe, what I'm wondering is, where's the money? That's what I want to know. Like, is it in their bank account and she's just saying, oh, I got a bonus at work, or does she have a secret bank account in all the money's in there? And then why is that the case? So she didn't have to tell him? Or is she like, okay, when I get $200 grand and the kids are 12, I'm out? Yeah, check the mattress. Check the walls. I don't know.

I think the money's scrolled away somewhere. I'm wondering like, okay, if she's not using it to pay the house mortgage or whatever, maybe could she be saving up to leave him or is she maybe paying for some secret life? I don't know. Yeah. She could be doing anything with the money. It just seems like you'd either notice the extra money if it was anywhere around your money. And if it's not, then why not?

And is it just to maintain the sea? And if so, that's planning, right? It wasn't just like I started doing that, you know, and how long has this been going on and how much money is there? It just there's so many questions that are aside from all of this other nonsense. It just seems like there's an alternative plan here that even he's not even expecting. Yeah, that's a whole other feedback Friday question right there. But it would be awesome if she wrote in asking for advice. I could get both sides of this. I would love to know the other side of this one. Yeah. You know, Gabriel, who gives a mean over the pants, H.J. amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to the show

and supporting the show. All the discounts and all the deals are on one page, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can search that page. You can find any sponsor as well using the search box on the website. Please do consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right. Next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been a remote worker since long before the pandemic. Generally, my days are very full, and while I do use my breaks to go to a doctor's appointment, go to the gym, grocery shop, or do chores, I usually never exceed the amount of time allocated to a break for personal activities. If I do, that time is always, always used productively. During COVID, my partner began working from home too. While I've certainly witnessed

his busy days, more often than not, he doesn't appear to be too busy, and he spends his downtime relaxing, which drives me crazy. For a while, it was video game playing, which I had to say something about. I couldn't stand the pew, pew, pew, pew of video game guns firing while trying to work. He respected that and hasn't played them since, but he now watches plenty of TV and takes naps, even goes so far as creating a sort of theater environment by blocking out the light from the window and making popcorn. His activities aren't interfering with my work. I don't feel like he's putting his job in jeopardy and it's not like he's gambling or drinking during his downtime. But I suppose this bugs me because I wish he were doing something more productive with this extra time. Or because he's cheating

his employer, which is a values issue for me. Am I just bothered because I'm jealous that he can so easily relax without feeling guilty? Would I care that he's cheating his employer if he were cheating his employer while doing things that I deemed valuable and productive? How can I get over this frustration, signed, staying sane and in my lane, while my partner drains his days away. Interesting question. I definitely think this is a values thing. You value hard work, fairness, productivity, and your partner doesn't value those things as much. But Gabe, I actually see both sides of this, because one of my guilty pleasures is going to be playing some video games, read and Reddit to unwind news, whatever. The difference is, though, when I'm playing video

games, I'm almost always listening to audiobooks to prep for shows, and it's like 90 degrees outside, and I just can't go outside and walk. I'm constantly, I'm pausing, I'm taking notes. The video games are essentially just a way to have a little fun and free up my unconscious mind while I listen, or maybe my conscious mind, whatever. So it's not like I'm just wasting my life away robbing hookers in GTA5 or whatever. That's what I tell myself anyway, but at least I do have something to show for it afterwards. I think it's different. Yeah, it is so different from what our partner is doing. this dude is straight chilling, right? He's playing call of duty at 1130 a.m.

He's blocking out the light for the windows to binge stranger things all day. Like he's turning their living room into a damn Alamo draft house. I think what bothers her isn't just that he's faffing off during work hours. Although I do agree it is maybe, eh, borderline unethical if, you know, he's cheating his employer in some way. It's just that he doesn't have much to show for it. 100%. Exactly. Which, again, that's a values thing.

she values spending her time in a way that creates value, even if it's just going to the gym, hitting up a little trader Joe's or whatever, and he values spending his time in a way that creates pleasure. And if he's spending four, five, six plus hours a day on entertainment and pleasure, I kind of understand her frustration from her perspective, yeah. I do too. If you have a job where you just don't have a ton to do

or your boss isn't right on top of you all day, that's a huge gift. That's an opportunity. If this were me, if I were in his shoes, yeah, I would probably be reading books. watching movies some of the time, but I'd also be trying to learn a new skill or meeting new people or looking for a more stimulating job or a second job or starting a little company, something, something to capitalize on that time in a bigger way.

But that's you and that's this woman that's not her partner. Maybe he just doesn't care about that stuff at all. Yeah, and fair enough. But then she has to either accept that he values his time differently and find a way to let go of the frustration or she has to help him see that he could do a lot more with his time and maybe help him figure out a new system or some new goals. Yeah, sure, right, or help him figure out why he's spending so much time napping and playing video games because, okay, here's where my mind goes.

Is he avoiding something? Is he escaping? It almost sounds like he's a little depressed or something like that. I don't know. He might be. Yeah, I had that thought, too. Is he numbing by just watching so much television? I wouldn't be surprised if he is on some level.

There are just, there are so many ways to switch off these days. Yeah. So if you decide to talk to your partner about this, maybe that's the approach. Not just, you know, you're wasting your life on COD, but I notice you're spending a lot of time watching TV. I see you napping during the day. And I just want to ask, are you okay? What's on your mind these days? Are you bored? Are you feeling a little down? Are you unhappy at work? Like, what's up? Talk to me? And hopefully you guys can just have a good conversation about it. And then you'll be in a better position to hopefully steer him to better activities. I like that because underneath the

surface behavior, there's almost always something else going on. At a minimum, he's missing an opportunity. which is a values thing. At most, he's using TV and naps to avoid something, maybe to cope with some difficult feelings. If you can help him diagnose that stuff, then you'll really be getting to the root of the behavior. And then it's up to him to decide what to do about it, and you could support him there. I got to say, though, I do think it's insightful of her to wonder if she's a little envious. Yeah. I don't think she's making this whole problem up in her head or anything, but look, she's type A. She's very by the book. She has this strong super ego, right? Like, this is the way things are done. I forget what that stuff is. But yeah, maybe. There's a, there's a higher function

that's kind of telling her what to do and what not to do. She has, it's almost like there's like an internal drill sergeant going like, this is when you work, this is when you relax, this is how much time you spend on personal stuff during the day. This is what your company expects of you. Here is how you got to behave. And look, I admire that discipline, but that also has its own roots. And maybe on some level, she wishes that she could be more like her boyfriend and enjoy life a little bit more because she just needs to learn out of chill and enjoy the pandemic in her own way. Yeah, that's a great point. Maybe when they talk, they can reach a happy medium. He can help her unwind a little bit, enjoy this work from home thing a little bit more, and she can help him focus up and, yeah,

make better use of his time. Somewhere between their two approaches is probably a healthy balance. So I hope you guys can talk through this and make some progress and good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use. a descriptive subject line, that will make our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through any big decision you're wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on stuff like life, love, work, what to do if you discover your brother abused you later in life, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up at Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my husband has been estranged from his youngest daughter for the last four or five years. She's in her late 30s, but has never held a job for more than six months. There's always some excuse about why she can't stand the job, so she quits. Since she never has any money, she relies on her grandparents, friends, and anyone else to give

into her sob story. We cut her off financially years ago, and she got angry that we wouldn't give in to her demands and told us that she never wanted to hear from us again, ever. Still, she's actually called a few more times over the last few years with the same old story. Now she's getting married for the second time. She sent us an invitation to the wedding, but it's not to make amends. She needs money to help pay for the wedding and the house fund. We're not going to the wedding, but my husband is torn about sending money as a gift.

Since she's treated my husband so horribly over the years, I don't feel we owe her anything. But I do understand that she's still his daughter. So what should we do? Signed, torn asunder by this daughter who plunders. Oh, man, what a piece of work. Having a daughter like this must be really hard for your husband, but also hard for you. You see the situation more objectively, that's for sure. She doesn't have the same pull on you.

You're the one who's got to watch him struggle with this. That's a difficult spot to be in, in my opinion. And this is a tough one. On the one hand, this latest marriage might just be another clever way to get more money out of you guys after years of financial manipulation. On the other hand, yeah, she's his daughter. it's her wedding, even if the marriage is kind of questionable. And it's hard to refuse to send some kind of gift to your own child on their wedding day. But honestly, given your stepdaughter's

history with you guys, I think you're right. You just probably don't owe her anything. I agree. It's got to feel awful to deny your child what they want. But the facts here are pretty stark. I mean, she's in her late 30s. She's not, you know, 21 and just starting out in life. She refuses to hold down a job. She gets everyone to give her money. And when the parents said that they wouldn't give her money anymore. She told them she never wanted to hear from them again. Yeah, it's a little, like, selfish psycho. And then she still kept calling and hitting them up for cash. I never want to hear from you again. Oh, wait, actually, I didn't mean that. I need money. Yeah, I need money. It's, uh, it's messed up. It's gross. I don't think it's unreasonable to factor in a person's

character when you decide whether to give them a gift for that, even if that person is your daughter. Yeah, it doesn't make it easy. No, no, no, of course not. It's painful. It's painful to be manipulated by your own child. And it's also painful to draw boundary and protect yourself. But like, what are they supposed to do? Cave and send her 50 grand for the DJ and a down payment because they feel guilty? Yeah. If she even uses that money the way she says she will, the more I think about this, I'm thinking

like, she might just cash the check and spend it on a trip to Spain or whatever. I'd love to go to Spain, especially with someone else's money. Or maybe she does spend it on the wedding, but then she gets divorced in nine months. And then what? They just funded a bullshit wedding in a house that she's going to sell and take the proceeds from. It's just, yeah, it is going to be a no for me, dog. Yeah. Well, what if they give her a gift she couldn't waste?

Like a year's worth of therapy or something. Ah, yes. Can you imagine? That'd be amazing. Congrats, honey. Here's 12 months of better help. Hope you get to the bottom of that borderline personality. Best wishes.

Damn. That would be a perfect gift, though. At least there would be an ROI on that gift. Yeah, something tells me this girl ain't going to respond that well to a better help gift certificate. She wants to go ham at Armani Casa. She doesn't want to sit across a room from Dr. Rosen and talk about her childhood. But boy, does she need to. Oh, she sure does.

Betterhelp.com slash Jordan, just saying. But these parents, they can't make her do that work. This girl has to drive everyone away and then hit rock bottom before she realizes she is the problem. So I say hold this line. And I know how much harder that is for a father, especially a father of a daughter. He probably still feels protective of her on some level, which, yeah, I mean, that seems natural to me. But that's where your husband needs to learn how to process his own feelings around drawing this boundary. Hey, maybe he's the one who needs the year of therapy.

Yeah, couldn't hurt. Dad's clearly wrestling with a lot of stuff himself with a daughter like this. Yeah, definitely. And if your stepdaughter is becoming a big issue in your relationship with your husband, maybe you guys talk to somebody together. I could see that being really helpful too. Just how frustrating to be in this position where your spouse wants, yeah, that's a whole thing. And look, I'm sorry you guys are in this position, but I admire your clarity and conviction here.

If your stepdaughter really needs money that badly, she can put it in Honest Day's work and give over the pants HJs like the woman from question one. There are options, people. Stay strong, good luck. You know who won't fake a whole wedding to get you to part with your cash? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you all so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going.

All of the advertisers' deals and discounts are all on one page at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com as well. So please consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, this next segment is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Gabe, take it away. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my boyfriend and I have been dating for several months.

and we are genuinely such a good match. We both had significantly traumatic childhoods with addicted parents, and we've both struggled with addiction ourselves. We're both in recovery and have been doing exceptionally well since we met. We both go to therapy regularly, we communicate incredibly well,

and we really work to ensure that the other is seen and heard. We are best friends, and our life is pretty beautiful most of the time. The problem is, my boyfriend struggles very deeply with depression. He'll have a couple days where he's bubbly and present and himself, then it's like a switch flips, and he becomes dark and withdrawn and pushes me away. These bouts will last for a couple of days, and then he seems to snap out of

it. He's been on the same SSRI for over a year, and his doctor recently doubled his dosage. But I worry that what he's taking isn't right for him. The doctor he sees as part of a group of people assigned to treat him for HIV. She isn't a psychiatrist, but she's the one prescribing him the SSRI. It doesn't seem to have ever really helped, and seeing how bad it's gotten, the longer he's been off of meth, the more concerned I become that he doesn't have an accurate diagnosis. I'm now afraid of how bad this could get. I feel powerless. It's been very difficult to not succumb to my own depression when faced with his. He's the love of my life, and I want more than anything to be patient and supportive, but seeing him this way hurts me in ways I can't begin to explain.

I want to find a way to help him, but I also need to find a way to care for my own mental and emotional well-being. So what do I do? Signed, helping my bloke while staying afloat. Oh, man. Well, first of all, I'm very sorry to hear that your boyfriend is struggling so much these days. You guys sound like a special couple. You've been through a lot in your lives, and it's amazing that you found each other, and that you're doing all of this excellent work, you've built this great life together.

It's remarkable, really. And I know it can be very painful to watch someone suffer and withdraw like this. I know it makes you feel helpless on top of everything else. So let's dig into this. We wanted to consult with an expert on your question. So we spoke with Hesu Joe, licensed marriage and family therapist, and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp, the world's largest online therapy service.

You've heard of them. They sponsor the show. And the first thing Hesu said was that depressive episodes, they're very challenging to navigate on your own. It can be tempting for you as a partner to internalize this and think that you did something wrong. But depression is an illness. You probably heard that before. It's not the direct effect of any one thing or any one person.

So you are not the person making your boyfriend depressed. It's not on you to solve this for him. We'll get back to that idea in just a minute. But I wanted to call that out at the top because one of the big things that jumped out at me in your letter is this powerlessness that you feel. I totally understand that feeling. But to a large degree, you are powerless to snap your fingers and fix your partner's problems immediately. As hard as that is to accept, that's actually how it should be because you guys are your

own people, you're responsible for your own lives. That said, let's dig into the medication piece of this for a moment. In Hesu's view, you're describing one part of a potentially big problem, which is that the SSRI your boyfriend is taking. it's being managed by a doctor who is not a psychiatrist. This is probably a doctor who's part of a coordinated care team assigned to treat him for HIV, and in all likelihood, they're just listening for symptom relief instead of getting to the underlying causes and issues, which, by the way, is a huge problem in the United States

especially. But in Hesu's view, that's quite dangerous because these doctors, they're not actually trained to address trauma or talk about relationship stuff. You go in, you have a 10, make a 10, make you. A.B. 15 minute conversation with them so they can check your dose level and make sure you're not experiencing zaps in your brain or tremors in your hands or whatever. And then it's just on to the next patient. They might double your dosage like they did with your boyfriend, but they're not going to sit and talk to you about emotional regulation or how to cope with life or what your

childhood was like. They're not going to get to root causes. Not even close. They don't have time, but that's the system we have, though. Hashtag America, right? Also, they're not actually making the depression go away, as you might have guessed, at least not directly. To use Hesu's analogy, it's kind of like taking cough syrup. The cough syrup doesn't make the virus or bacteria that made you sick go away. It's kind of just a painkiller for your throat, making it so you don't cough as much. It's suppressing the symptoms. Same thing with SSRIs. They're not making your depression go away. They're just blocking the reabsorption of serotonin into your neurons. They're increasing the supply of serotonin in your brain, which, yeah, can be extremely helpful. Don't get me wrong. It can make it

possible to live your life. It can make it doable to go to therapy. It can sort of reset the pathways in your brain a bit. But man, it's not going to heal any underlying themes or experiences that created the depression in the first place. So Hesu's take, it might be time to ask the prescribing doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist or maybe a psychiatric nurse practitioner, or somebody who specializes in this a little bit more. Because if what you're saying is true, that your boyfriend's medication doesn't seem to have ever really helped, that he might not even have an accurate diagnosis,

that's concerning. That's why you want to be seeing a dedicated psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are medical doctors with specialized training, but they don't always get super deep with their patients on a weekly basis, which is why it's even more ideal for his psychiatrist and therapist to coordinate care, which means communicating with each other. So the best thing your boyfriend can do, surprise, surprise, is keep going to therapy, make sure he's working with a great clinician, and make sure that he's really engaging with the

process. And that was Hesu's advice too, because according to her, this is actually the gold standard of treatment for depression, a combination of medication and talk therapy. And obviously, that doesn't mean these approaches work for 100% of people, but without that talk piece, even with the right medication, there's only so much you can do to address the causes of depression, process all the stuff around it, and make progress. And if he isn't finding the results he's hoping for from therapy, I would consider exploring that with him. Maybe you'd just gently ask him, you know, are you happy with your therapist? Do you feel like you're making

progress? Are you finding any sticking points or any gaps? Or maybe he's really happy with this therapist, which is great. But since you said he's still really struggling, it might be worth talking to him about whether he feels he's making progress, whether he's with the right person. Yeah, I get the sense that her boyfriend needs to reevaluate his treatment strategy a little bit. Maybe shake things up if he's not making the progress he hopes to have, to your point. As for you, how you're coping with all of this, Hesu's advice is to make sure that while you take care of your boyfriend, you are also taking care of yourself. Because you need your own supports in place, too.

I'm thrilled to hear that you're in therapy, too. That is terrific. But outside of that, are you on top of your self-care? Are you maintaining your own identity here? As Jordan mentioned at the top, it's wonderful that you're there for your boyfriend in such a big way. And you should be. But you also can't get swallowed up and lose yourself taking care of somebody else. And I know you're already on to that. And I was really happy to hear you say that.

But I do think it's worth remembering that that healthy separation is important. So keep an eye on that too. Go out, live your life, invest in your friendships. Make sure you're eating well, maintaining strong relationships. getting some sun, staying active, getting good sleep, finding joy in the world. Because if you can't do that, it can be really hard to do that for someone else. And as Hesu pointed out to us, sometimes the best thing you can do for the people you care about is to model what it looks like to take care of yourself, even when things around you are chaotic. Because again, your boyfriend, he's the one who has to want to get better here.

He has to drive. We talk about this all the time. I really don't want to sound like a broken record. But Hesu actually brought this up in our consultation as well, how everybody ultimately has to take ownership of their own healing. And maybe one way to encourage your boyfriend to do that would be to ask him like, hey, when's the last time you talked to your doctor about whether these meds are actually working? You know, what if you ask them for a referral to a specialist? Maybe they know the name of a few grid therapists. Maybe you could call them, you know, you know, empower your boyfriend to find some new folks who could offer a different assessment or a different treatment plan or just maybe offer a new relationship for him. He could be literally one phone call away from the right answer. I like that.

I agree completely. She can encourage him without feeling like she needs to manage his whole treatment for him. If you can do that, I think your boyfriend will find some amazing resources out there. And if he does, it could improve your already great relationship even more. He's really lucky to have you looking out for him. You guys sound like an amazing couple. Just remember that you can't live his life for him. He's the love of your life. I get it, but that doesn't mean that his life is also yours or vice versa. So keep taking care of yourself as well. Keep supporting him.

And I hope your boyfriend gets better soon. We're rooting for both of you. Good luck. Man, the obstacles people go through, Gabe. It's inspiring to see people who are just, like, you think, oh, I encountered this thing where I failed a class in college. And it's like, I came from a crappy home, got drug addiction, HIV. Now I have depression.

It's like, okay, I have just gotten. such a easy hand of cards whining about one of them, it just seems so silly when I read stuff like this. Well, also, given their lives, these two are so high functioning compared to where they came from and what they've been through. I find them very impressive. And the fact that they've come this far makes me think that they can get through this too.

It's just a matter of maybe revisiting what the plan is. Yep. All that and excellent taste in podcasts, too. This segment was sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Big thanks again to Hesu Joe. head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Go to betterhelp.com slash Jordan to help support the show and get started. Alrighty, next up.

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 24-year-old woman. I've been building my marketing agency since I was 21 years old, and over the past 18 months, things have really progressed. I now lead a small team of staff, and business is good. Sadly, during the same period, my mom was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer, and six months later, she passed away. I will forever be grateful that I was able to care for her, and help her fulfill her wish to pass at home with our family beside her.

Having dealt with the immediate feelings of grief following her death, I now find myself struggling with anxiety. I feel like at any moment my life could be cut short, like how it was for my mom. This feeling of dread has led me to start acting erratically, like I'm trying to tick off everything on my bucket list all at once while still trying to scale my business. Normally I'm hyper-focused and productive,

but lately I've been booking spontaneous holidays, making lavish purchases and dating loads of people at once looking for the love of my life. Despite my best attempts, though, I still feel unfulfilled and unsatisfied. And admittedly, I've started to really neglect my responsibilities at work too, which has added a layer of guilt and regret. I recognize the self-sabotaging behavior and I want to take action against it. How can I start to change my mindset and get my life back on track? Signed, The Meandering Mourner.

Oh, man. Well, first of all, I'm so sorry that you lost your mom. That's an incredibly difficult thing to go through, especially at such a young age. I'm 42, and I dread having to deal with this, and I just can't even imagine, I wouldn't have been equipped at your age to deal with this. I don't even think I'm equipped now to deal with this. It sounds like you two are fairly close. You were there with her through this whole process. Of course, it's having an impact on you now. Losing a parent at any age is painful, and I am just, Again, I'm very sorry that you had to say goodbye. So it's interesting. Losing your mom has clearly put you in touch with some very profound feelings, this whole new mindset, the urgency to live, which in some ways, honestly, is great, but that's obviously creating a lot of distress as well. So this is a little bit of a two-sided coin, as it were.

You feel this dread, you're going on all these spontaneous trips, you're spending a lot of money, you're going on a ton of dates, you're kind of all over the place. there's a sort of manic or hypomanic quality to your life right now. I'm not saying you're bipolar or anything, of course, although if you feel this might be a true mania, if you notice yourself cycling between extreme highs and lows, that's definitely something to keep an eye on.

But this does seem like a very intense response to the realization that, well, life is short. You want to make the most of it. And or maybe your mom's death is making you reevaluate what really matters to you right now. But it sounds like those realizations, they aren't always productive or even pleasant. Yeah, well, it's interesting. This mania or this manic-like experience, it might also be a defense against some of these feelings that our mom's death has brought up. Interesting.

How do you mean? Well, so sometimes this manic or hypomanic state, especially when it's not chemical, it can be a way to deny certain feelings, whether it's depression or sadness or anxiety or whatever it is. It's almost like an overactive form of coping, right? You're adopting a more powerful position, a more potent position so that you don't have to sit with some of this difficult stuff. In her case, probably a lot of sadness and grief about her mom and also this new anxiety she feels about what her mom's death means for her. Interesting. So it's kind of like, I'm not sad. I'm not freaking out.

I'm booking a trip to mecos. I'm buying new furniture for the house. I'm crushing it on Bumble. I'm full of life. I get that. Okay. Yeah, exactly. And meanwhile, she might not be resting. She might not be fully grieving. She's probably not totally acknowledging this anxiety. She's just funneling it into all these different activities or maybe covering over it with all of this busyness. Because if she stopped, if she really stopped, she would have to confront this very intense thing that her mom's death has laid bare, which is, like you said, Jordan, life is short and this is all we've got and we have to make the most of it. And so what does that mean for my business? and my values and my relationships and also the fact that I'm going to die one day.

And that, unfortunately, could be theoretically sooner than I like. Yeah, I think that's exactly what's going on, because she knows this approach isn't working. She still feels unfulfilled. She's unsatisfied. She feels guilty for neglecting her responsibilities. This isn't just, you know, I know what life is really about now. Carpe diem. This sounds more like avoidance or escapism or repression or, like you said, an aggressive form.

of coping. So you know what I'm about to say, right? I do, but let's go there. That's where she's going to talk to somebody. Going to therapy right now would be a huge help. You just lost your mom. Your mom, this like incredibly important relationship and person in your life, you've been through a hugely formative experience and it's clearly bringing up some very meaningful stuff for you. The anxiety, the dread, the coping, the procrastination at work. Those are all great things to explore in therapy. And I think you could really use that. to work through all of it. That would be amazing for you personally. It would be incredible for your business, I'm sure. But it's also really important for the morning process that I think you're still

very much in the middle of. Agreed completely, Gabe. The only thing I want to add is I know this new mindset of yours has been stressful, but I actually think that there's a layer to this experience that's really important and positive, which is, yeah, life is short and we have to make the most of it. it is so easy to forget that. Our minds just aren't designed to embrace that fact at every moment of every day. It's usually when we experience a huge loss that we actually remember it. So I don't want to pathologize your new outlook entirely. I do think there's a lot for you to work through around your mom's death, but I also think that you're in touch with something very precious right now. I know it's a cliche, but it's true. This is all we get, folks. We have to make it count. And that

is a reminder that's worth listening to. Again, I'm so sorry about your mom. I hope you find the insight and the support you're looking for. And we're sending you good thoughts and a big hug from California. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Definitely check out Bill Nye and Paul Holes,

if you haven't heard those episodes this week yet. If you want to know how I managed to book the guests for the show, I just happen to have a very good network and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing. It'll help your business. It'll help you personally. that's our six-minute networking course. It's a free course.

I don't need your credit card. I don't try to, not trying to sell you any life coaching. That's what this show is for. It's over there on the thinkific platform at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course, teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty.

And the drills take just a few minutes a day. The whole point is it takes like five minutes a day. Five-minute networking was taken. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals and discount codes, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Hesu Joe's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Hesu's feedback is in response to a written question, and therefore there are likely other unknown considerations given the limited context. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses, if that's important to you.

If you or your partner are in crisis and uncertain of whether you can maintain safety, reach out for support. Crisis hotlines, local authorities, have a safety plan. That can be done with the therapist too. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. Anytime you catch yourself comparing yourself to others, you have to stop and say, that's what I'm doing. Don't do that.

Oh, God. Easier said than done. Yeah, I know. But although once you know that, the knowledge is power. I was just at a bachelor party, and some of my friends were like, oh, man, some of our friends, they just became like high school teachers. And I was like, well, let me stop you right there. You know how happy those people are?

They figured out what they wanted to do when they were, like, 24. They got married to somebody they'd been dating for a while. They had kids well before age 30. They're satisfied with what they're doing in a lot of ways. They have way more free time than you and I. We cannot sit back and judge. We're wired in a way that we're always dissatisfied. They're wired in a way where that is fine.

I'm jealous of that on many levels. One in six Americans have actually stopped talking to a family member because of the election. That's pretty scary. It's almost one in five now. Yeah. Politics has become super, you know, hyper attenuated in our culture. where it's taken on this outsized role and importance to assume ad hominem.

This is what you were saying. It's like Jordan made this joke on Instagram. So therefore, I know it's residing in the depths of his heart. I bet you he bears animus towards some racial groups. So wildly, but that's exactly what we're talking about. Motive attribution asymmetry on the basis of ad hominem. Don't be that guy. 93% of us wish the country were more united.

You're part of the problem when you do that. So I got a win, win, win proposition for our listeners and viewers today. Number one is I'm going to make you more persuasive. I'm going to make you happier. And I'm going to start a social movement in your heart in a tiny little way to bring our country together. And that's answering hatred with love as much as you possibly can. For a great discussion and how we can bridge the divide in our relationships, our country, and even within our families, check out episode 211 with Arthur Brooks here on the Jordan Harbinger show.

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the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.