The Jordan Harbinger Show - 743: Dr. Ramani | How to Protect Yourself from a Narcissist Part Two

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (@DoctorRamani) is a clinical psychologist, professor of psychology, media expert, and author. Her latest book is "Don't You Know Who I Am?": How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. [This is part two of a two-part episode. Make sure to listen to part one here!] What We Discuss with Dr. Ramani Durvasula: We're all a little selfish sometimes. So how do you tell a genuine narcissist from someone who's just having a bad day? Is it just our collective imagination, or is true narcissism on the rise (or at least more visible)? Is someone necessarily born a narcissist, or can they "catch" it later in life? Can a narcissist be reformed? How can you protect yourself from a narcissist if just staying 500 feet away at all times isn't a viable option? And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/743 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course! Did you hear our conversation with basketball legend Shaq about everything from sports to politics to emotional management to flat earth theory? Catch up with episode 691: Shaquille O’Neal | Circling Back on Flat Earth Theory here! Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. And so if you walk into Tiger's Cage, they're going to kill you. Or they're going to pull off your arm or mall you, right? If it's really a tiger. But if you're still suspicious and think it's just a sweet little cat, walk into the cage and see how it works out for you. If indeed what you encounter, you say something to them, you talk to them, you try to communicate with them,

and they actually are amenable, maybe you misread the situation. But if they start mauling you again, then there's your reminder. And sometimes people need a few of those reminders and say, Okay. I'm dealing with someone narcissistic. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills are the world's most fascinating people.

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Today, part two with Dr. Romney on narcissism. Of course, if you haven't heard part one yet, time to go back and listen to that. Part two, there's a lot more practicals. We wrap up our discussion as well. And without further ado, here we go. Part two with Dr. Romney. Going back to some of these examples of folks that I know, they would say something about somebody and I'd go, well, okay, don't we all do that?

But then I was like, wait a minute, you do that especially. And also, this other person really almost never does that. And also, are you talking about something that happened two days ago where we were all there and this is 100% you? And they didn't seem to notice it. I thought either you're a really good actor or you're so, you lack some. awareness to the point where you don't even realize that you're doing this and other people are not. And the jealousy was there turned up to 11. The gaslighting was there turned up to 11.

And I started having to write things down after dealing with them because they would go, we're going to do this, this, this, this and this. And I'd go to a meeting the following Monday. I mean, four or five days later. And they'd say, well, I told Jordan to do this, this and this. And he didn't. And I'll go, ah, I finally, I wrote this down where you said you were going to do that. And then you didn't. And now you're blaming me and saying that I agreed to do it. And now I'm not the crazy one. You set me up for this.

And it would happen constantly. And I can only imagine if that is you, but your parents are doing it. It's got to just be a million times worse. If your parents are doing it, what the child does, the child does not have the luxury of saying, yo, mom, stop with the projection. You're gaslighting me, right? Right. The child has one need, and those are attachment needs.

Right. So they can't afford to cut off that attachment to a parent. The parent is a source of food, shelter, but above all else, the perception that they are also the source of emotional and psychological nurturance, of safety. So when this is happening to the child, what does the child do? They internalize the projection. I am a bad kid. I am a liar.

I did do that. I must be awful. And that kid slowly morphs into, I'm a bad kid. Because instead of the parent taking ownership of their subpar behavior, they project on to the child, they literally resent the child for having any needs, as though the child is a burden and they, in a million subtle ways to let the child know it. So what does the child internalize? I'm a bad kid. I'm a bad person. And that trails them into adulthood. Yeah, that's awful. Another trait seeking out high status friends, I know a lot of influence are just by virtue of the

fact that I'm in this industry. And there are some folks, most of the people in this industry are fine, great, normal, whatever. But I've had literally had this conversation where someone will go, I only hang out with famous people or people who are going to improve my brand. And I'm thinking, you said the quiet part out loud. You might not want to advertise that. You sound a little bit psycho when you say things like that. And I had one friend of mine come to me and say, I went to so and so to be on their podcast. And they literally told me I wasn't famous enough. And I go, didn't you just do a bunch of consulting with that guy for like six months where you helped him for free with all this stuff? And he's like, yeah, I did. And I didn't charge him for it. And then when I wanted to promote my book on his

show, he said, I only want big name people and people who can enhance my brand. And I'm just thinking, it's got to just be lost on him how crazy that sounds. But he'll say, he'll tell you. And I thought, I don't know if I admire that or if I'm just in shock because the honesty is just unbelievable. You might as well have a t-shirt that says I'm a horrible shallow person and wear it every day. That idea of I only want people around me that enhance my brand is really the beautiful 21st century way of what a narcissist is about, right? They do only want people around them who enhance their brand, which is why, you know, you'll see that, for example, the trope of the older man with the inappropriately younger, attractive partner. She's supply, right? She's enhancing his brand.

And whatever variant that works as fame, fortune, notoriety, whatever, people, status, people want that. And that's what narcissists want that, I should say. And so they, you know what, in a way, what I like about someone saying it out loud is that then it's buyer beware. If you're keeping company with somebody who's saying, I only want to be with people who enhance my brand, that might be the time you say, I need to go use the bathroom and not come back. Right. I know this person's ex-girlfriend, and she's so nice. He literally, one of the reasons they broke up was he was sending dick picks to everybody on Instagram that he could find. And then some other girl with more followers who was famous in another country started replying

probably the same issue as him and wants somebody who enhances her brand. And these people were house shopping and then he dumped her kind of out of the blue after they had a fight about him sending dick pics because he's like, well, I didn't do anything. And I'm like, well, one, you did because the rumors are flying everywhere that you're a cheater.

Two, sending dick pics to people you don't know on the internet is basically the same thing. And three minutes later, you're dating a different girl with more Instagram followers. And then they got the exact same type of dog that he had in the previous relationship and started taking the same kinds of photos. And I remember thinking, okay, one day I'm going to talk to a psychologist who understands

exactly what's going on. And this is that day, Dr. Romper. This is that day. And that idea of people live in that fear of they're going to want to trade up, the trophy partner. Narcissistic people do do that. I mean, because it's transactional. They're choosing on the basis of status.

So trading someone out for somebody who has, is quote unquote, better for their brand. That's what you're going to see with a narcissistic person. The challenge becomes, though, Jordan, is that the person who is left, the person who is rejected, the person who is no longer on brand, their tendency is to internalize it and wonder what's wrong with them. Am I not enough, right? You know, you're more than, you're a human being. So by dint of that, you're more than enough. But the fact of the matter is, is that it's a transaction. So the problem lies in the person who views the relationship as a transaction. And that's the narcissistic person. Right. So these people also, I know, spend a lot of time researching things that they

covet that they want because they always want something new, something better, something more on brand, but the hole never fills because it's unfillable. So like you said, the other person says, it might not enough. It doesn't matter who you are because you can't be enough for them. It's a black hole. It is a black hole. And so, you know, I always, when I would teach students about narcissism, I might say, I want you to think of a bucket with holes popped in the bottom and you're pouring water in it, in good faith, thinking it's a bucket you could fill. And you're pouring and you're pouring and you're pouring. and after a while, like, how come I'm not filling the bucket? But you never quite realize that there's holes in the bottom. And because most people don't understand narcissism. They don't understand the holes being in the bottom.

Nobody is ever enough because nothing is enough for them. And I think that what happens is that, for example, a narcissistic person may stay, people will say, well, how is it that I know a narcissistic person? And they were married for 40 years, 45 years, 50 years. It's because that relationship was serving a function for them, right? It may be that they were able to come off as the family person in public or they like the facade of it or they like the comfort of the relationship or they liked, you know, whatever it is they liked about it, they kept that, right? So it's almost like if you go to my kitchen, I've got a food processor and I've got a coffee maker and I've got a, you know, whatever the heck of heck else I have, a teapot. I'm not going to throw out the teapot because I have a food processor. I need both of those things. That's what a narcissistic person

views of people as, almost kitchen appliances. So they may stay in the long term relationship because that's serving them a function, but then they want the other thing, which might be a relationship on the side or whatever, because it is never enough. So they often switch up their supply and make their supply more, I don't know, diverse, as it were, and get different sources of it.

But nobody can be enough because it never is enough. Like, for example, they just want to be the emperor of the, or empress of the world. Like, they want to be in charge of everything. I mean, I guess there's some people like that in the world and who have that kind of power. And my guess is they're, I don't know if what we call them satisfied narcissist because if they were, they'd probably be sharing their wealth and they're not.

So they're not. They're narcissistic and obviously having all that money matters to them. There's a lot of envy and trying to create lives that other people envy, but of course that envy is toxic and causes them to wreck their existing life with their happy partner and their kids because they want to get things that other people will envy. And that's what's so tragic about this, right? You see people who have what should be a great life because they have a great person and they have kids and they have a good business. But then they will sacrifice all that for another person that has more followers on Instagram. And you're just thinking, what are you doing? You are holding happiness in your hand and then you splattered it on the ground to go get something shiny.

So envy is a two-way street in narcissism. It's interesting. And it's even built into how we clinically think about narcissism. First of all, narcissistic people envy other people. They envy the person who has the fancy airplane or the fancy car or even, I don't even know. I mean, depends on where you fall and be the whatever they've got that you don't have. They envy other people a lot. But on the other side, they think other people envy them or they want to create a life where other people envy them. So they want to get the fancy things or they want to put the life out on Instagram. In fact, a psychiatrist friend of mine once said to me, she said, Instagram is literally a tool that was perfectly designed to induce envy and other people. That's almost like its only

function is to make other people envy you. And that need for other people to envy you is an incredibly incredibly unhealthy dynamic to be hitting the world with. And listen, I know some people are going to say, oh, I wanted people to kind of be jealous of my vacation to Paris. Does that make me a narcissist? Maybe not. But take a look inward on what that's about. Why would you want anyone to have to hold that negative mood state of envy about you? And there's likely an early core reason in their lives for that because a healthy person wouldn't want somebody to envy them. And in fact, there's the humility of like, oh, maybe I'm not going to let people know this about me because it could make them uncomfortable or make them feel, you know, less than I never want that. That's a healthier

approach. But that envy piece is absolutely huge. But then you said something interesting about happiness. They were holding happiness in their hands. They don't understand happiness, right? Happiness is a very deep, deep quality that all the research about healthy folks, it's very much about mutual, compassionate, respectful, reciprocal relationships. Well, narcissistic people don't have those. So for happiness, for them, is a very fleeting state. It's usually the thing right in front of them. You know, as long as they feel like they got a new shiny thing, that means you need a new shiny thing all the time. So for that person, they thought they'd be more happy, as it were, with the new shiny thing. But that's because this thing called happiness, they don't have a deep hold

on that particular construct. That makes sense, yes. Some other quick traits, generous only when it serves them or they can make a show of it, which makes sense, right? Why be generous if you're not going to get some brand enhancement from that?

We talked about dysregulated patterns, the anger, the rage, where things just seemingly are, the disproportionate reaction to something. Grandiosity, one of the other hallmarks, cult leaders and conspiracy theorists have this, but it's like the big new app idea,

the business they're gonna build. And you mentioned in the book is really interesting. The fantasy, when they talk about these things, it's confusing to other people because it's so far away and doesn't reflect reality. And I live in Silicon Valley. I've seen people come up with big ideas before, but sometimes it's, okay, this guy can really pull this off. And other times it's, wait a minute, you've been working here for three days. Why are you talking about when you're the CEO of the

company, you're going to take the brand in a different direct? What are you talking about right now? None of this makes any sense. So the grandiosity is often quite delusional. They talk about it like it's actually happening. Sometimes they'll say, they'll, I don't know, they'll talk about applying, I don't know, to an elite university or something like that. The way they talk about it, it's almost like they're planning on going. And I'm like, well, there's less than 2% chance of you getting in there. But there's that, it's the three days in, I'm going to be the CEO. But it is. It's a delusional grandiosity. And they do it because if they say it enough, it's almost like they're living into that grandiose experience. It's exhausting for the people around them who are like, listen,

and we got bills to pay today, but there's a big failure to launch with many narcissistic people. They like being grandiose, but they don't like doing the work. Because think about what's starting a business is it's grunt work. It's regulations. It's applications. It's getting the funding. It's writing things. It's not glamorous. It's really painful.

And so unless you're like a billionaire's trust fund kid where you take the money and then you make a bunch of other people do it and then show up as the face of the company for normal people. starting a company, getting something off the ground, or even doing other things, getting an advanced degree or something. It takes work. It takes time. So they like to talk about things like they're happening because it's almost as though they experience them as though they're happening. And again, it's confusing and exhausting for the people around them. And it often means that things don't get done. So if you have a very grandiose boss, they will be asking for things that simply cannot happen. And so then they're angry at people for not being able to enact their vision.

But people say this is not possible what you're suggesting. People lose their jobs as a result until the grandiosity is finally found out. Look at someone like Elizabeth Holmes, the what's the lady with a theranos, right? It's a great example of that kind of grandiosity. I'm going to take a tiny drop of your blood and be able to tell you everything about your health history ever. I knew having some science training. I'm like, that doesn't seem realistic. Like, just doesn't make sense how they run assays.

But what did I do? Because my first thing was like, oh, maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But, you know, I think anyone in the sciences was like, huh? And then she got these billions in funding. And I think just other people like, whatever, that's your billions, so not mine. But we knew it wasn't going to work. And yet she held on to it to the bitter end. And that's how these things often crash and burn.

There's so much here. We have to skip some of the signals just in the interest of time. Passive aggression, Schadenfreude, something that everybody else does, you know, being happy when others fall. But the flip side of this is rationalizing the winds of others as a less meritorious. Like, oh, she slept her way to the top. Or it must be easy if you're so and so. I've had people say like, oh, well, you're successful because you inherited a bunch of money. I'm like, my mom was a public school special education teacher. By the way, also still alive. I didn't inherit anything. My dad was an auto work. He's an engineer. Also still alive.

What are you talking about, man? I inherited it. No, I've worked hard and I got a lot of luck because of the market timing, but like inheritance, geez, pick a different sort of boogeyman here, buddy. But I do get things like that or people being like, I've been doing a podcast for as long as you and your show sucks compared to mine. And I'm like, oh, you're just obsessed with this concept of, and I'll put this in air quotes, fairness where you're better than everyone else. And they're just obsessed with this. And I noticed that as well about people I know, I guess, in real life who exhibit this is everyone else who's doing well has somehow done so, because through less meritorious means or it's just purely lucky and when am I going to get my

due is just a constant refrain and it's like well I don't know maybe get up before 11 a.m. But it's interesting. So it's an interesting kind of like backstory to the Schadenfreude. Right. So Shaddenfreude for people who don't know is a German word, leave it to the Germans to have one handy word that gets to this, which is the glee or the pleasure one experiences at another person's misfortune. Not so nice. We've all done it. We've always. All done it. Folks, if you have experienced Shadenfreude, doesn't make you a narcissist. In fact, when we often experience the most Shadenfreude is when the narcissist themselves fall. So that's all good.

The difference is, is how with a narcissistic person, the Shadenfreude is so cruel. Like, they'll kick a person when they're down. They will mock them. Because Shadenfreude, to me, if you kind of do it in private, you're like, look what happened to that one. You know, and then you're thinking it, that's very different than getting up in the face of someone and saying, yeah, loser, you know, and you're like, well, this person's already going through something, whether they deserved it or not, like, maybe let it go. So the narcissistic person, it's an absolute enveloping glee that they experience. Now you talk about that other sort of an interesting

flip side of if anyone else succeeds, it's luck or inheritance like you put it or, you know, that kind of, or they slept their way to it, whatever sort of way dodgy way that they got to it. And I'm not getting there because the world isn't fair to me. But the piece they never account for is they're not doing the work, right? Or they'll say, I've made my podcast as long as yours, really? But have you? I mean, I know having a podcast myself, the hustle involved, you know, the time and you even still don't know what, you know, an audience is going to take what the audience takes.

And if mine is not as successful as someone else's, the idea is for me to be circumspect and say, I mean, either this isn't resonating or I need to step up my game in terms of that. But it's not Jordan is not good. Romney's not trying hard enough. That conceptualization is never going to work for a narcissistic person because it's too much of an ego threat. But if you're their friend, it doesn't feel good when they're saying, oh, Jordan, you got ahead because of this inheritance from these living, poor living people who are, you know, so it's a,

what it does is it diminishes what you've worked hard for. And so it's really hard to maintain a friendship in that when you constantly feel that that's happening. And it's sometimes people in these relationships feel guilty at succeeding where the narcissist is not. They're like, I'm not going to tell them I did this or got this because I don't want to hurt their feelings. So a lot of people in narcissistic relationships actually learn to silence their own accomplishment so they don't hurt the narcissistic person's fragile ego. Also, these folks are often vindictive when slighted because, and you said this makes so much sense. External image is all they have.

So they have to be vindictive when slighted because that's, if somebody slights me, eh, doesn't feel good, but I'm probably not going to think about it for more than a few minutes and even that's too long. But we've all seen the person who cannot ever let anything go. And it's because these slights, these tiny little things are elevated to primary importance because they don't have anything else going on. I thought that was really enlightening as well. And also paranoia. I didn't see this one coming. They often think that other people are out to get them, which I guess if the focus of the whole world according to you is also you, that makes sense. But these folks are prone to racism, nationalism. That really is interesting. I'm wondering if

you think there's a rise in that too, because it sure seems that way from watching the news. Well, think about it, right? So at any ism, you know, the willingness to dismiss an entire group of people reflects not only an entitlement, but a lack of empathy. How could entire group of people on the existence of something like race or, you know, whatever it is. It's an absolute unseeing of another human being. And so what it does, though, is that there's this, you know, and this is if you want to radicalize or create nationalistic movements, you try to foster an us-them mentality.

And so if I'm in the group that's better, then I'm great, and narcissistic people are always looking for ways to pump themselves up. So what better way to say, do it, than the other group is bad and I'm great. And that could be anything from sports teams to race, to whatever, you know, the town someone's from, nationality, religion picks something. And so that, it speaks to sort of the mental weakness that is narcissism because it's that need to sort of say that the group I'm in is great, that's I'm great. Rather than it's another group of people, I can get to know people as individuals, but the constant threats that narcissistic people feel

from the world, just like with the paranoia. Narcissistic people have something, the fancy term for it, is hostile attribution bias. And hostile attribution bias is the attributions you make for other people's behaviors, like somebody who may look at you in a store, is always hostile, like it's threatening versus maybe they're looking at me in the store because I remind them of someone or they think they recognize me, no, they're out to get me. What are you looking at? That kind of thing. That's the hostile attribution bias.

And that's a very classical part of narcissism. And the other behavior in the outer world is inconsistent with their inner world. And the example that slipped right out and hit me in the face was that CEO who got famous for paying $70,000 a year wage for his payments company, but then, and he was in the media, and he was all writing on LinkedIn, and he was this big deal, and he's always like, the corporate America, they're taking too much. And then now, his current thing is a dozen plus women saying he's sexually harassed and or abused them. All of his exes are coming out, like, yeah, this guy's a total bastard. I didn't say anything because he was in freaking Forbes for being

the best CEO ever and paying everybody a living wage and coming out against greed. And it turns out he's just a, yeah, maybe he's generous with money, because he's, it gets invalidation, but he's also gropey and gross. Correct. And we see this all the time in these big, you know, these increasing numbers of corporate scandals, a lot of which we then sort of really start escalating during Me Too. And they're all the ones that never got documented prior to Me Too or the people died, is that that idea of the person who is viewed as the Titan, the genius, the generous one, the philanthropist is behaving in this horrifying way. That inconsistency, though, it actually speaks to a, you know, sort of the inconsistency they themselves feel. Remember, it's very simple

to understand narcissism. They need validation. So if they're like, oh, if I give these people a lot of money and be Mr. Philanthropist or Ms. Philanthropist or whatever, then I'm going to get a lot of validation. I'm going to do that. That seems like a good thing to do. It's not out of a love for the cause or anything like that. In fact, they often have contempt for the people they may be trying to benefit. It's just that they're going to get recognition. And what they're not going to do is give that money quietly, right? So they're going to make sure there's gala's and posts and aren't I great and look what a humanitarian I am and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we come to find out they're screaming at their household staff. They're sexually harassing and abusing people. But then there's

another level to this. Harvey Weinstein's a great example. Anyone in the industry will say, everybody knew he was behaving badly for years. But everyone wanted to be part of the Miramax miracle machine. Everybody wanted their name a fix to a big project. Let me get that on my name. Then I can distance myself from this monstrous guy and I can go make it in this dream industry, right? So the fact of the matter is, whether it's a Bernie Madoff, whether it's a Harvey Weinstein, anyone who's got that level of notoriety but was able to get away with the stuff behind the scenes, people will often soften those edges so they can get what they want from that. That's something also called cognitive dissonance. We want the pieces to fit. And if they don't, there's a sense of tension.

So we're going to tell ourselves the stories we need to tell, whether as a society or as an individual. But there is often that incongruousness. And in many ways, it shows that the narcissistic person knows that what they're doing behind the wall is inappropriate. So they're creating that offset image. There's a form of narcissism called communal narcissism. It's a really interesting model of it, because these folks, they get their validation and admiration by being do-gooders, by being rescuers. Some you see here, again, some of these sort of really hypocritical philanthropists or people who are on Instagram rescuing whatever animal du jour they're doing but doing it in their bikinis. And in the worst example, a lot of these sorts of new age folks who are out there, you know, proclaiming the virtues of positivity, cult-like structures, all of that. All of that is in that communal narcissistic model.

And what we know with the communal narcissists, when they're not rescuing the elephants or recruiting people into a cult or giving away money, they're often quite cruel and abusive to the people. closest to them, people may work for them, family members, whatever, but those people close to them can almost never get support because the world views that person as so great and so wonderful and so virtuous that nobody believes them. So there's a real cruelty to what happens to people stuck in those relationships with communal narcissists. Yeah, there's also covert narcissism as well. Tell us the difference here from regular, regular good old narcissism. So here's a chance to dispel sort of a misuse of language, right? So the covert narcissist are actually those vulnerable narcissists I talk about. So what happened was that language kind of got, as the internet does, like, you know, now that TikTok

seems to be the, it's supposed to be the substitute for therapy for everyone, that now what we see is that the language got morphed in the original, that sort of the orthodox language around this, the vulnerable narcissist is that resentful, so even I made that mistake in that book. And it was interesting as I started doing deeper and deeper and deeper dives into literature, I was like, oh, I should have gotten that one, right? You know, I did my mea culpa, but it's vulnerable narcissism. Covert narcissism, it's the stuff we can't see. So it's their thoughts, it's their feelings. It's the stuff that's going on in their heads, right? I'm so great. And we can't see it, though. It's just being reflected in their behavior. The overt narcissism would be the bragging and the arrogance and all of that.

The covert narcissism is the stuff we can't see. That term covert narcissism is often used interchangeably with vulnerable narcissism, which is that more victimized form of narcissism. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dr. Romney. We'll be right back. I know a lot of you wonder how I managed to create opportunity, book guests for the show. It's all about the network, and I know that schmoozy gross networking is something that nobody likes, but our course has nothing to do with that. This is about non-smusy, non-gross networking.

Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. It's free. There's no credit card info required. the course is just good old-fashioned networking and connection skills and developing personal and professional relationships that's it it's really easy doesn't take a lot of time go check it out jordan harbinger.com slash course many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to that course come join us you'll be in smart company where you belong now back to dr romany i think a lot of people maybe know someone like this but it slips they say well he's kind of a narcissist but also kind of not

because he doesn't do all these other things and then you when i learned about about covert or vulnerable narcissism, I was like, ah, okay, definitely just that instead. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Victims of narcissistic abuse can often fall for shady new age gurus. You kind of mentioned these new age gurus a minute ago. I'd love to discuss briefly how and why this happens, because I see this all the time, especially when I lived in L.A., a lot of these people in these weird self-help cults, they were all kind of, they had parental issues or abuse or bad partners, and I thought this is just an extension of that. And I'd go to of these recruitment meetings because it was a business leadership thing. And I, you know, you get duped into going.

And I'm like, this is gross. Doesn't resonate with me at all. I'm out of here. And other people, I check in with them six months later and they're still doing it. I'm thinking, what, this is the dumbest thing of the world. Why does this appeal to you? And they're just getting sucked into this, just like they got sucked into the bad relationship with the last three guys they dated or whatever. It's, you know, we look at that. What is it? It's things like having to earn yourself or earn your place in the relationship. A lot of them have levels, right? You go from this. level to that level to that level. That's so much the architecture of a narcissistic relationship or win me over more. There's a lot of money that exchanges hands. But what it is

is that a lot of these sort of toxic new age types is they shame any kind of negative emotion. Oh, if that didn't happen for you, I guess you didn't try hard enough. You're not manifesting hard enough. That's on you versus really giving a holistic look at it. And a person who's vulnerable will very much fall for that kind of that kind of nonsense. And under the kind of billing and the community that these new age folks bring come and we're going to have crystals on the beach. But then you're like, what is happening? Like you're blaming these people for circumstances in their lives. They had no control over.

And so, and what happens too is that these organizations will often isolate. Oh, your friend is telling you that this isn't cool. You're letting too much negative energy into your life. The place to start is to hold this pink crystal and tell your friend you don't want to talk to them anymore. And so now they start isolating these people from the counterweights in their life sort of get more and more isolated and before you know it, you're all the way in. It's a systematic indoctrination in these, but you need a person who is often looking for answers, you know, and like you said, some of them are even, it's not even just vulnerable people trying to, like,

work out soul pain. Sometimes it's just people, business leadership. I know exactly what you're talking about. And that people get into this and like, oh, this was the answer to everything. But really what it is, is that they often take this very basic principles of positive psychology and cognitive behavioral psychology, and they repackage it as like, your mind can control everything. You know, there's all, you're only using 2% of your brain capacity. No, you're not. You're using it all. Trust me.

And so, but they'll sell people on this sort of kind of sort of pseudoscience and really confusing stuff, but people who don't know and the people who sell this stuff are very slick, very charismatic. It's all packaged really well. You know, people will go with it because people are seeking. answers. I think we're in a really existentially bruised time in human history. So narcissistic people are climbing right in there and selling sort of this kind of snake oil and they're great salespeople. I found it interesting that some people are more likely to develop narcissism. And it's kind of more

than I wanted to go into in this discussion. But there's biological vulnerability. There's, of course, the way you were raised and kids are inherently narcissistic. But I thought, okay, if kids are inherently narcissistic, that's why adults who act narcissistic seem like toddlers. And now that I have toddlers, I'm like, wait a second, you're kind of acting like that guy did at Target the other day. And I realize, I guess my question is, is it safe to say that narcissism is something we grow out of versus something we grow into? And then, of course, some people just don't grow out of it. And that's why I see the guy yelling at the cashier for squeezing his loaf of bread too hard while scanning it. Real example. So even when I say, you know, kids, adolescents are narcissistic, they still have empathy.

I bet your toddler actually has empathy. You know, if they sense that you or their other parent was sad, I actually think that you'd see the sadness register on their face right away. Those mirror neurons, the beginning of empathy, your single most important task is that little one person's parent is to infuse them with that empathy to mirror back, to create that back and forth. Now, the narcissistic folks don't get that from their parents. But I actually would argue that most, even small kids, even toddlers have more empathy than your average narcissist.

But that egosentricity, that self-centeredness, the child needs to have that, you know, so they can develop. All their resources need to go into turning them to the adult they're going to be. So I think that what happens is I don't know that we grow out of it because I think even the most tantrumy toddler isn't narcissistic. I think even the most tantrumy toddler just doesn't have the tools to be able to talk through being tired or express what they need. The narcissistic person has language. They have the tools. They're just choosing not to use them. That's a choice. For the child, it's not a choice. Now, what happens is there's a certain biological vulnerability or temperament. Temperament is the biological part of our personality. It's why you might even have like a funny little, I know, a funny little bit of your personality that's exactly like an uncle you've no contact with almost whatsoever. It's just there is a biological part of it to things like stubbornness, agreeableness, all of that. We've seen that. Now, it's a not completely and that temperament gets shaped by the world. Narcissistic people, there's no good longitudinal work on this. This is speculative. We see some of this stuff in the research on borderline personality supports it a little more, even psychopathy is supported by this, that narcissistic

kids probably have people who go on, I should say, people go on to become narcissistic adults likely have really difficult temperaments. They're the kids that are difficult to soothe. They're the kids who can't sit down. They're attention seeking. They're like, people don't like them. They're not nice kids. They're difficult kids. And it's kind of mean because they are kids. Yeah. And yet they're cartwheeling through the living room. They're demanding, look at me. I'm doing a show. Look at me. Look at me. You're like, oh my God. Whereas the other kid may be a little bit more serene and may be able to play by themselves. That more serene kid is going to get a lot more positive inputs from the environment than that look at me, look at me, inattentive, jumping out of their chair, difficult to

so the loud kid. So already the world is starting to invalidate that kid a little bit too. That combination of the early invalidating environment and that biological vulnerability, that's how you create these difficult personality styles. And that's the work of even like Marshall Linnehan has written about this borderline personality, but I think it applies in narcissistic too. The problem is though, too, we also have this other piece to it. We know there's some narcissistic kids out there where it wasn't so trauma-ish, abucy, invalienable. as a kid, their parents were just really overindulgent. They got anything they wanted. They never had to regulate disappointment. Everything was handed to them. They cried, parents would do

anything to stop it versus, hey, sometimes you lose kid. Like, these are the parents who'd buy off the coach, you know, to make sure their kids as a starter, all of that stuff. And that continues to even when they're in adolescence and the parents buy off the university to get them into college. And that just keeps going, right? So they recognize that there's no sort of internal, everything's external. And that's how that sort of moves into adult narcissism. And I always say narcissism is always a story we can tell backwards with complete clarity, but it's a really difficult story to tell forwards. And what I mean by that is a lot of folks reach out to me. My 17-year-old is mean and entitled and oppositional. And I'm like, you know what, call me in about

eight to 10 years and we'll talk. But right now, they're acting like an adolescent. But I'll promise you this, in any 28, 29, 30, even 50-year-old narcissist, if you're able to find the people who were witness to them in adolescence and childhood, they'll say, yeah, they were a handful. So you can tell it backwards. You just can't predict it forward. That makes a lot of sense, because I was just thinking, my kid says, look at me, I'm doing a show, but then I'm like, well, but everyone likes somebody's really kind, and he, well, okay, never mind. But yeah, I guess if it's, it can be less obvious and, yeah, just wait till he's a teenager. I'm sure I was a nightmare as a teenager. I'm fairly confident of that at some level.

You told me before the show that being around narcissism for a long time can actually make you sick. And I'm not just referring to the trickle-down narcissism where the victim starts to behave with less empathy because they themselves are not being given any. I mean actual physical illness. And you kind of touched on this at the top of the show. The concept of perceived partner responsiveness was something I just never heard of. Can we discuss that a little bit? I thought this was so interesting.

So you're in a relationship, right? And you have a partner. And when you laugh, they laugh with you. most often you tell them news, they drop what they're doing to listen to you. Say, I've had a hard day. They come and talk to you. Like, you know there's a confidence that you can go to your partner and they will respond to you in a way that shows an awareness of what you're saying to them. They're actually listening to you. And then when you bring whatever it is, good, bad, or indifferent, they respond to you. But that's not just reality. It's also how you perceive it. And that perception comes from reality,

right, how this person's behaved. So that idea of, if you, over time, when you're in an narcissistic relationship, you really learned that nothing I say to this person matters. They don't care if I'm sick. They don't care if I'm well. They don't care. They just don't care. And that, when you have this idea of low perceived partner responsiveness, is bad for your health. I have worked with so many survivors over the years. And I am struck by how much worse the course of their illness was than it needed to me. They did not have biological vulnerabilities and genetic vulnerabilities to illnesses that they were getting. They were developing a lot of non-specific physical issues that didn't really track. But the chronic stress of living with someone invalidating, not having

that partner responsiveness, basically living in a house full of mirrors that don't show back your reflection is a really unsettling feeling. And we know that cumulative stress can relate to a whole host of health issues. It's a tough way to live. And I have to say, I've worked with long-term survivors. People have been in marriages 30, 40, 50 years and the kinds of health issues they're having. It really tracks. It really makes sense of the cumulative stress of being in the relationship. I am also struck by people who will say, one day the narcissistic person died, and within six months my health improved.

That's incredible. And I would imagine also getting sick while your partner is a narcissist is incredibly inconvenient for them, and they just view it as an annoying thing that they have to deal with. It's absolutely terrible. And what's so sad is some people will say,

you know what, I'm getting older, I need a companion. And gosh, when I'm older, I just need someone to care for me. I said, they're not going to care for you. Not everyone listens. and the number of tales I've heard of people who said exactly what you just said. They feel inconvenience by their partner's illness.

The narcissistic person almost doesn't like the mortality reminder that another person's illness is. They don't like the change to their routine. Hospitals make me uncomfortable. Oh, do you think they make you uncomfortable? How do you think about the person who's sick? And so what the person will find is this so-called person they thought would take care of them when they're older has no problem dropping them off at the curb when it's chemo day and saying, I'll be back in a few hours, or can't you find another ride home from your colonoscopy?

Or how could you inconvenience me? And they won't visit them in the hospital. They won't take care of them at home. They won't even give them a meal. That's the sort of stuff. The narcissistic, though if the narcissist gets sick, oh my gosh. They expect you to turn the house into an intensive care unit. But they have absolutely no capacity to take care of a sick person.

And we'll often gaslight that sick person and say, are you really that sick? or it seems like you're making a really big deal of your symptoms. And I have to say, for some survivors, that was the moment that broke them. They thought after all I put up with, I thought at least there was this other person in the house who would take care of me and they actually made it worse. Yeah, it's so awful. And when you hear about children having to provide narcissistic supply for the narcissist parents, it's so unfair, it's so exhausting.

How do narcissistic parents program their kids in weird ways that show up in adulthood, right? The conditional love. The book mentioned something really interesting called shape-shifting, where the kids will try to suit the perceived wants of their parents, which that is obviously unhealthy. That just reaches through the page and hits you in the face when you read that. So the narcissistic parent doesn't view their child as an autonomous individual outside of them. In fact, they're inconvenienced by the child. They're often, and what they do is they get very resentful if that child needs anything, like, wait a minute, you want something and that doesn't work for me. How dare you? And so what ends up happening is the narcissistic parent holds all the power, right? And so what they're able to do is basically say the narcissistic parent holds the only reality. The child is not permitted to have a reality outside of that. So when the child, for example, expresses a need, that need is shamed or that child is viewed as disloyal.

And while the parent may not say that in as many words, the child will sort of start detecting the dance. I express a need. The parent withdrew. So children are incredibly perceptive. And as they start putting together that the only way you're going to get the time of day around this place is if you do everything that that person wants, the only way you're going to be safe around this place is if you do everything that that narcissistic parent wants, then the child starts doing that. And they're like, oh gosh, yeah, I had no interest in soccer. But maybe if I play soccer, then my parent will pay attention. Maybe if I play tennis, one day they'll play tennis with me.

So they try to take on the interest. I'm going to be a doctor when I grow up. because my mom's a doctor and they'll talk from the age of six mommy mommy I'm going to be a doctor just like you the poor kids just doing that to be seen by the parent so they literally just shape-shift and become whatever that parent wants because the parent does not hold space for that child to develop into their own autonomous human being with their own needs their own wants that they're valuable that way and that they love them but the narcissistic parent just like they are with everyone they can't be bothered that somebody would exist outside of them. Succession's a great example of that.

The narcissistic father in succession. In the show. Yeah, HBO. Perfect. It's the best example of that I've ever seen in a show. Adult children of narcissists often cannot enjoy their life successes because they overshadow the parent and are thus belittled for it and or feel guilty about it. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the culmination of all this sort of sadness. Even if you escape the orbit and you do well for yourself and you manage to get a happy life, there's a possibility. a distinct possibility, you're going to be made to feel like crap because you're not making your crazy mom or dad the center of your world now. From a relatively young age, if the narcissistic child

outshines the parent, let's say the child is, I don't know, winning awards for something or getting attention or anything like that. The narcissistic parent isn't going to like that unless it can be harnessed in a way that the narcissistic parent is getting some form of agilation, like a stage parent kind of thing, right? Now, fast forward that into adulthood. That same ideation, Let's say a person goes on to make more money than their narcissistic parent, where I've significantly more success. Either the narcissistic parent will devalue or diminish it. Well, of course you did well, kid.

We took care of everything. We couldn't have made your life easier. I had to work for everything I had. If you couldn't have done that much with everything, we got you, you're a bum, right? So there's that piece of it. But then there's also no child wants their parent to envy them. That is too destabilizing because it takes away the grandiose idea of the parent. Take that into adulthood.

the adult may feel guilty that they are doing better than the parent. I'll never forget a story that an incredibly successful man I had worked with. He had a very narcissistic mother. And he had said that, you know, after he made his first billion, he wanted to buy a house for his mom in a place that she'd always wanted that vacation house. He came from actually relatively modest means. And when he did, his mom, instead of saying, thank you so much for this beautiful house. she said, oh, well, I guess for a billionaire, this is the best you could do.

So she was sort of nudging at him. And he was devastated. He said, I felt no different than when I showed up to her with a picture I made in school and she would say it wasn't very good. Like that invalidation of her child was who she was, you know, from the picture he made when he was five to the villa he bought her when he was 35. But then it's also that sense of there may be envy that the parent would, you know, again, envy them.

And then the child will almost try to soften that, again, by buying them the house or the car paying all their bills, but it's almost like a survivor guilt that the child has that somehow they've surpassed the parent and that they were told from an early age that that was not okay. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Dr. Romney.

We'll be right back. Thank you so much for supporting our sponsors. A lot of you do really well with this, and if you want to give it a shot, go ahead and go to our sponsors page, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. All of those codes are there. If you forgot something,

you're thinking about buying something, you want to see if they're a sponsor of the show. please go there and check us out. You can also search for the sponsors using the search box on the website as well right there at jordanharbinger.com. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Dr. Romney. Today my son asked why his drawings were up on the wall and I said because we love them and he goes, why? And I said, well, we love everything you make for us. And he goes, I'm making another one today and you could tell he was so happy about that. I can't imagine doing the opposite of that. It's just so heartbreaking to think about because he's,

He's so little. He took great joy and pride in the idea that he did something that we were happy enough with to stick on the free. I'm going to tear up about my kids' stupid drawings on my show here. But it's just, I can't imagine doing the opposite of that. It's so, it's so heartbreaking. It makes me so sad to think that kids are growing up that way. Lots. Lots and lots and lots of kids. If you're raised by narcissistic parents, I know you're more likely to be susceptible to other narcissists and maybe pick narcissistic partners because of the tracks are already built. like the programming's already there. Are they also then more likely to become narcissistic themselves?

By and large, the vast majority of people who have narcissistic parents go into adulthood, anxious, not aware of their own capacities. They're often more vulnerable to like the sense of I'm not good enough, right? That's the vast majority. Do a percentage of them, though, go on to become narcissistic? Absolutely. You know, the fastest way to create a narcissistic adult is for them to have had a narcissistic parent. But that's not the majority.

Remember that temperament piece. That is why. Because listen, there's people out there who are really nice people and they have a narcissistic sibling. How did that happen? Right? Because they had the same parents. And it was temperament. It was temperament.

They would say, in fact, I've worked with people, parents who were married to narcissists. I've worked with a non-narcistic parent. They were married and then divorced from a narcissist. And they have kids who are now adults. One of their adult kids is a narcissist and their other kids is sweetheart. And one of the things we unpack right away is how were these kids when they were small? And they'll say, oh yeah, that narcissistic kid was a handful, but more than anything, that non-narcistic kid was an angel, like just a sweetie, sweety, sweety, sweety, like just

easy going and had a great, easy temperament, and really, you know, still got really harmed by that narcissistic parent. And in adulthood doesn't understand their value, but you need that temperament piece. You really do to turn that person. And then the narcissistic parent has a much greater likelihood of that spinning. into a narcissistic adult child. That makes sense. It's kind of like how some metals are more magnetic than others and they react more strongly

that totally checks out. Also, I thought it was really interesting that it's not just people from bad families or I put bad, but from families with narcissists that fall for narcissistic partners. It's often people from really great families that fall for narcissistic partners because they view everything with the lens that it's all going to be okay. And maybe they don't see this type of behavior because they've never experienced it before. Or maybe they believe in fairy tales and happily ever after and maybe they're a little naive. I thought that was really interesting because you would think it's, oh, the tracks are already there.

They would recognize. They don't recognize it because it's all new to them, maybe. Remember the trick with a narcissistic relationship is that there are lots of good days in there with those bad days, right? So it'll be bad, bad day, bad day, bad day, best weekend ever. Bad month, amazing vacation. Right. So you're going back and forth. But the person from the happy family gets the message if you love enough.

You know, love saves things. If you're there enough, family matters more than anything. They get that messaging. And they believe that messaging because that's how they grew up. That's what they saw. So as a result, and even their family's like, come on, yeah, marriage is work. Sure, sometimes we'd argue. But their argue is like, oh, I don't want a chocolate cupcake.

Not this is kind of soul devastating argument. And even the family can't be of much help. They're like, well, marriage, like just work harder. Try hard. We'll just love them more. We're going to take you all on vacation. Again, having worked with families in this situation, I remember, again, working with a really sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet couple loving, married forever, happy, happy, happy.

They'd wear the matching pajamas, all the happy family things people do. And their daughter married a really narcissistic guy. Part of it was the love bombing seems like not so love bombing. Like, of course people do nice things in a relationship. Then when things started getting bad, the whole idea was like, oh, I'm not supporting them. They're going through a lot of stress. I just need to be a better partner. And the family would pipe in saying the same.

Everyone believed it was fixable. So when the thing went off the rails, these parents were like, we don't know what is this. These were older people in their 70s. I'm like, oh, let me teach you about this. And they said, this is not our world. And then they thought their daughter would be able to walk into divorce court and get full custody of her kids because the husband was so mean.

I was like, slow down folks, you know? And I had to walk them through what family court was really about. And it was amazing to me because these were people, like I said, in their 70s, but they were as naive as children. And I kind of envied them. I'm like, God, I wish I could have gotten to that age, not knowing that this lurked out there. But it was, they did not know how to help their daughter because they had no playbook for this. So that's where I'm saying. It created a vulnerability.

But the good thing was, though, the daughter felt incredibly supported by her family, right? So, I mean, even at the end of the day, it's a win to come from a loving family. I just think that everyone knowing about this means that when the love of the love, bombing turns into red flags that no love is going to rescue this one. Someone's behaving like a fool. There is no beauty in the beast. You need to get out. One of the, you mentioned family court. In the book, you note that narcissists, even if they just completely ignore your kids, view them as a inconvenience, they're still going to use them as leverage because they know it can hurt you and they can get what they want. They're not thinking, this is bad for the kids to be jerked

around like this. They'll go, they'll take 50% custody and just make the kids watch the iPad for three straight days while they go off and do their thing if it's going to mean that they won or you didn't win, right? That's the most painful part of these divorces is that the narcissistic parent may not be interested in the drudgery of parenting, right? I mean, because parenting is a joy, but it is a lot of drudgery. And so what happens is there is that fight. It's almost like, I want this thing that you want.

And so that creates a lot of it too. But also, for many narcissistic people, it's not as that they're all like, I want to be, I don't want these kids. They like the look of it. They're often the Disneyland parents, right? These are the Disneyland dads. that we're going to go do super fun stuff. We're going to go to Super Space Surf Camp.

Then we're going to go to Disneyland and then we're going to go do this. And then they didn't do their homework, right? So then the other parent is left like, oh my gosh, we've got the four days of homework and you've only eaten hot dogs for five days. So that other parent is in the far less lovely position of having to be broccoli and homework. I mean, that's tough after Super Space Surf Camp. And so the narcissistic parent also knows it's a look, right? Like, they want to be viewed as the good parent.

And so they want custody so they can get the pictures and say, look, what a great parent I am. And sometimes what happens is they're not that interested in their kids. And then they meet someone new. And they want to create Insta family. So now all of a sudden, they'll fight to have more custody of their kids so they can bring them in with this new partner and say, look at us. We're the Brady Bunch. Ugh.

Yuck. I'm getting skin and crawl. I know I'm going to get emails from people who are like, this happened to me. And I'm ready for it because I love to support my audience and stuff like this. And I think a lot of people are going to see and feel some relief being like, oh, this is a thing. It's not just me having the worst luck in the world with my ex, whatever. I know that we've gone a while here, but I do want to talk about what we do if we find out, hey, there's a narcissist in my life.

I know from your book that once you start making accommodations for these people, it's like ants at a picnic. You attract more because you're making them, I don't know, you're making a comfortable environment for them through your actions. So let's talk about how to do the opposite of that or something. that's effective for getting these people to go away or for letting us go. So there's no easy way out if you're in it. The more significant the relationship is like a marriage or family relationship.

That's going to be a lot harder to cut ties than maybe a friendship or even a workplace thing if there's workarounds, right? One thing, and if people only get one thing from this podcast episode is don't call them out, do not walk up to a narcissistic person and say, yo, you're a narcissist. And not only is it never going to work, you're going to have to deal with a tirade the likes of which is not worth it. This is one of those things to keep on stealth. You're like, okay, now I see what this is. What do I do?

Listen, when it comes to intimate relationships, I'd say probably at least half of people stay in these relationships. They don't want shared custody. There's financial issues. There's cultural, religious, whatever. They still have hope. Whatever the reasons are, I never judge a person for staying. But I tell them, you're in for a tough ride, so you're going to have to radically accept that this is never going to change. There can be no more, maybe this year it's going to be different.

It's never going to be different. You need to start building a life for yourself outside of this relationship, whether that's hobbies, friendships, work, anything that gives you meaning and purpose, throw yourself into your kids, but you're never going to get those emotional needs met from this person. And keep in mind, Jordan, I'm not talking about cases where there's physical violence. That's a whole different situation. I'm talking about more of the sort of the really invalidating, negating horribleness of a narcissistic long-term relationship. If, however, you're like, I want out, you need to be prepared for the fight

of your life. And I think that it is unconscionable to say someone, oh, just get up and leave. Because I'll tell you, the post-separation abuse is real. You may have to endure such psychological abuse. Some people say it was almost easier to be abused in the relationship than out. It doesn't mean it's not a worthy endeavor. Some people say, I want out, they endure it. They get to the other side, and they're glad it's over. And those people out there are like, oh, you know, I think my narcissist is cheating on me and they're going to leave me. I'd be like, great, good for you because that's a lot easier. When it comes to family relationships, it's a little bit trickier because you might have some family members you adore and others that are really narcissistic. It's about

finding those workarounds, finding ways to be there, but also knowing, I always say to people, here's the easiest trick, and it's not easy, simple, like straightforward trick to try. If you're dealing with a narcissist, I say never go deep. And by deep, I mean, don't defend, don't engage, engage, don't explain, and don't personalize. If you do those four things, you actually could probably survive the narcissistic relationships you can't get out of. If I don't defend is when they're projecting stuff on you or gaslighting, you're like, okay. And you just sort of shrugging like whatever. You know, when you don't engage, just don't. Don't talk to them. Like stick to the weather and like the neighbor's barking dog because there's no way a conversation is going to go well.

Maybe a movie you just saw. Don't explain. Like people say, let me explain my feelings. links to you. They're not listening. Don't do it. And then the don't personalize. It's not you. It's them. This is their stuff. They do this to anyone who's sitting in your seat as their partner, as their colleague, whatever. This is just who they are. They're equal opportunity offenders. This is not about you. You might be getting the worst of it because you're close to them. It is about boundaries, which are not easy to set because when you set them, they're going to get mad. They're going to bait you. They're going to try to draw you into arguments. They're going to call you names are going to say, oh, you think you're all that? What are you in therapy now? Is that what your

therapist told you to be like this? Very contemptuous, very dismissive. But I think half the battle is the knowing it. So you don't personalize it. But there's also grief because this relationship you may have put belief in for years or decades or even a lifetime, you're kind of giving up on it. You're like, okay, this is not going to get better. And so there's a period of grief. And I tell people, prepare yourself for that. It might mean therapy, support groups, whatever you can do to sort of understand that this hurts. It's not easy for you. But I'll tell you it's a lot easier than enduring someone else's invalidation. And I sometimes tell people, and if you're not convinced, go into what I call the tiger's cage. And so if you walk into tiger's cage, they're going to kill you or they're

going to pull off your arm or maul you, right? If it's really a tiger. But if you're still suspicious and think it's just a sweet little cat, walk into the cage and see how it works out for you. If indeed what you encounter, you say something to them, you talk to them, you try to communicate with them, and they actually are amenable, maybe you misread the situation. But if they start mauling you again, then there's your reminder. And sometimes people need a few of those reminders and say, okay, I'm dealing with someone narcissistic. All of us are dealing with people like this, Jordan. I have several folks in my life like this. And this is what I do for a damn living.

And they're not people I can easily cut out. So it's a lot of radical acceptance. It's a very hollow relationship. I don't think about them. I never miss them. I don't care. I just, I can't. I really don't.

But I do the right thing, not for them, but for me. And I think that that's the piece to remember is I want to conduct myself in a way I consider as appropriate. But that said, I'm not getting in the mud with them. Should we go no contact if we can? You know,

if we're not talking about somebody in our family, or maybe we are. Maybe it's might look. Let's say somebody has someone in their life that is just driving them nuts. It's a cousin. They might see them once a year. maybe, but is there a point at which we just go, you know what, I can safely cut this person off, or I can stop taking phone calls from my own parents because they're crazy and that's my,

I'm an adult now. No contact is great. It's great. If you could do it with any narcissistic person in your life, it's great. Why? Because you're not putting up with their stuff anymore. No contact is no contact, right? It's you don't talk to them.

You don't text with them. You don't call them. You don't go to social events with them. You take them off your social media. You're done. It's like quitting cigarettes. I mean, you're going to feel better in two months, not even. maybe even the first week, or it's like quitting drinking or something.

People say, I feel so much better. It's not like an occasional drink. You're all out, right? Now, again, if you're co-parenting, not practical, certain relationships, it doesn't work. But the random cousin who may only show up to this or that, you might say, you know what, call me when cousin leaves. I'm going to show up then. I can't.

You know, so no contact is such an extreme stance that it's not always possible for people. And sometimes you may be no contact for a long time. And then you have to break that, I don't know, an old. older parent gets sick and you're the only person who can step in or whatever it may be, there may be situations, but then you can do the don't go deep and all those other things. I talked about the boundaries and all of that. Obviously, no contact. It's a great strategy because you are protected from that.

But some people will shame folks for going no contact. Oh, come on now. Was it all that bad? But when you can do it, like example, a workplace is a great example. If you leave a workplace, you can go no contact with those people. You never have to talk to them again. And people who do that will say it makes a huge difference. Some people, if they never had kids and they get divorced, they go no contact.

They never talk to the person again. So part of it is what is around that. But there are other forms of dropping contact, what we call low contact. And low contact is things like gray rocking. Grey rock. This is my next thing. I love this. This is brilliant.

Tell me about this. Gray rocking is what it sounds like is you basically turn into a gray rock. You're boring. You're disengaged. You're sort of, how are you doing? I'm okay. you don't engage with them. Now, narcissistic people don't like gray rock. It's a little bit cold, abrupt. They really, really don't like it. And so it works. I mean, because they're going to

escalate for a while because you're not responding to them. And then they're going to be so bored. They're just going to leave, right? But it's not always possible. You can't gray rock if you're co-parenting with someone. You can't always gray rock in the workplace. So a friend of mine, who does a lot of work in family court reform and helping people coming out in narcissistic relationships named Tina Swith. And Tina came up with something called Yellow Rock. And Yellow Rock is where you kind of liven up that gray rock a little bit. So you have manner. So when the narcissist says it's not just like, hello, goodbye, I'm fine. It's like, yeah, hey, I'm having a good day. Or yeah, oh, sure, thanks. Yeah, thanks a lot. So there's more emotion. There's more feeling.

You'd be like, you know, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to Costco. The lines were so long today, you know, so there's that a little bit, but you're not saying a lot of anything. And that yellow rocking for some people hits a nice compromise, but you don't ask them about their day. You don't follow up. You don't get no conversation. They try to draw you into an argument like, oh, yeah, I don't have.

So it's such a funny thing. Yeah. And then you get out of there. You know, so like you're not, so the kids aren't seeing the sort of weird robotic communication. Colleagues aren't being made uncomfortable. your cousin's wedding isn't getting ruined because you're gray rocking everyone. You can be a little yellow rocky and then find ways of just sort of shifting away from having anything more of a conversation with them. That's often a great way forward.

Well, I know this was a lot and we went way over time. So thank you so much. I feel like myself and everyone who made it through to the end here is much, much better equipped to spot and deal with narcissists. So mission accomplished in that way. There's so much more in the book. I've got a lot I'm going to cover on the show clothes with the practicals and all kinds of things people can actually do, but I don't need you to go over them because I've already taken enough of your time. Thank you so much for that time and for that expertise here today. I know we're going to get a lot of emails about this, and I'm just, I'm so happy to give people these kinds of tools. I just think it's so important, especially given that narcissism is not declining.

Is that accurate? No, I think what's happening, it's not even that it's not declining. We're incentivizing it more. Social media has given them a stage. We venerate people who act like this. And so I don't know that it's increasing more that we're rewarding it more, which means that people who will say, well, I guess it's okay for me to be like this. But that's the problem.

And that means people think they should get into relationships with these people. And that's not a good idea. Thank you so much. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with former NBA superstar and American icon, Shaquille O'Neill. I'm flicking the channels and I see L.O. Coojet. I'm going to be a rapper. Say, flick the channel again.

I see a guy doing. on a great sitcom. I want to be an actor. Of course, I'm a sports guy. I want to be Frank O'Harris, the Immaculate Conception. I want to be Reggie Jackson hit a home run. My father made me write from A to C

what I wanted to be. So A was a basketball player. B was a basketball player. I actually got in trouble for that. Dr. J changed my life. Dr. J was the guy that said, okay, now I know what I want to be when I grow up. I had some good grades,

and my father took me to a game. We're way up in Madison Square Garden, probably top row. Boring game. Dr. J. Gold baseline, throw it down. The whole arena stands. It actually scared me because I thought something was happening. And I looked at my dad as I, I know what I want to be when I grow up dad.

I want to be down there. I've won on every level except college. Little League, A.U., Olympics, Junior Olympics. So as a youngster, when I used to play and win, he would let me celebrate the trophy one day. I come home and watch the school and he'd be gone. And he was the type you never asked him, where's the trophy in? So if I finally asked him when I got older,

And he said, I did it because I never want you to be satisfied. I want you to always want more as a player. So even as a youngster, when I was a player and I wasn't that good, that wasn't stopping me. Because I knew that because of my work ethic, I was going to be somebody. And once I saw Dr. Shea, it's all about believing. I got to ask, or people are going to get mad. What's going on with the flat earth thing?

Are you just messing with everybody with that? It seems to be flat. Would you like to hear my theory? To hear more about how Shaq makes important business decisions and manages his expansive career, check out episode 691 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Ooh, lots here. I am so glad that I got to do an episode about this. I'm sure it will not be the last one.

We all know people who just don't want the rules to apply to them, but want them to be mercilessly applied to others. They don't always say this exactly, right? It can manifest itself as eye rolls or other behavior. I found it interesting that Americans rate other Americans as more narcissistic than others. Sure, maybe, but I don't know. Have you met the French? Come on, man.

It does seem like narcissism may be rewarded in our society, especially in corporate America. We all have seen this, right, with the narcissistic bosses. I'll talk more about that later. Another confounding factor here, anyway, is that narcissism and materialism, they go hand in hand, but also materialism is like a measure of success here in the West. It's almost encouraged. In fact, it is actually just encouraged. Narcissists, they can be great on the fun days, but they're just not there for the rest of it.

Often people think they can get back to the way things were early in the relationship, the friendship, whatever it is, but it's really not possible. Relationships with narcissists are held together by hope. If you give them an ultimatum, the narcissist that is, a divorce, breakup, lawsuit, whatever it is, they may change for a while. but they're always going to revert back to their core characteristics because those have not changed. But it's important that we don't overuse the term narcissist and just slap the label on anybody we don't like or whose behavior we don't like. Dr. Romney said that most narcissistic people are

indeed toxic, but not all toxic people are narcissists. Furthermore, toxic people aren't always toxic to everyone when you're useful to them, hey, the sun might shine on you, but the clouds are always nearby. In case you haven't raced to our show notes to do so yet, if you have narcissistic parents or suspect you do or you get a narcissistic spouse or kids read this book. It's huge, but it's a virtual compendium on narcissism and how to deal with narcissists. The book also discusses toxic siblings, workplaces, children. Jordan Harbinger.com slash books always has our books, by the way. And for people who wanted more info on toxic leaders and bosses, well, I've got some Cliff's notes

right here for you. It's no surprise that narcissism is overrepresented in toxic bosses and leaders. Why do people fall for this? Well, narcissistic parents, maybe some pre-existing programming. Basically, if we grow up with narcissism in our lives, the tracks have been laid as we were kids and children. So these narcissistic bosses and authority figures, they are masters on playing on that authority and that fear.

Sometimes when people are familiar with this, it feels like, yes, I can be the one who's different, I can win the game, I can get treated well, I can get the keys to the kingdom, and unfortunately, the underlings of a narcissistic boss or leader are often left holding the bag. They're the ones that get fired. They're the ones that go to prison when all is said and done. Sometimes it can be very hard to get rid of these people in an organization because narcissists often get results. Complainers sometimes can be seen as weak depending on the culture. People are afraid to report them, so it can go on for years or even decades before it catches up to them. People are often

afraid in a corporation to kill the golden goose if a person is really effective in that organization. And many people are tempted to think, well, okay, I can handle this toxic boss, now that I know what they're about. This is naive. These are expert manipulators. Dozens of people

before you could not do this in most cases. And toxic leaders demand blind loyalty despite their bad behavior. So what do we do? Well, I say this all the time when it comes to legal conundra here on the show. Document document, document. Generate hard copies. Generate screenshots. Save the documents and personal files wherever you can on your own thumb drive, if legally allowed. Record conversations,

depending on the state, depending on legality. Getting this information in a hard copy or in print, so to speak, is key because of gas lighting. They're going to tell you it never happened. They're going to say you don't have any evidence. You can send emails to yourself, BCCing a private account if you think you could do that without getting caught. Turn the red receipts on. Make sure you got summaries of meetings and phone calls and take your own notes. Don't depend on other people because those people may not be on your side later on. They might be afraid of the consequences. They might not want to share their notes with you if you're going to do something with them that might get them in trouble. And you know what? Try not to think about them all the time.

Close your phone and work laptop hours after you leave. Avoid that manipulation following you home. Don't just stick it out thinking it's going to be fine and fair down the line. This is sunk cost fallacy. Move on quickly and move on as soon as possible. What about toxic friends, you ask? Well, Dr. Romney says we just need to face the fact that some relationships, they're only going to go as deep as happy hour. Don't try to change this. Just accept it. And as a rule, don't judge a friendship by the good times. Judge it by how it functions when the chips are down. Dr. Romney also has a list of something called pink flags, which I thought were pretty interesting. Not immediate alerts, but stuff so subtle that we would barely notice it. Well, what are these, Jordan? I got

you, here we go. Too many Photoshopped social media images, too many food photos, a frenzy of activity when they're on vacation and have something to brag about, oversensitivity in the face of an innocuous comment, tendency to get snippy with a waiter or retailer, distractibility and boredom when other people are talking, paying the check for others, but then reminding them about it later, how do they drive? Are they aggressive? Is there a road rage to they park in handicapped spots or loading zones? When are we right to be alarmed here? One-offs on these pink flags, no big deal. I mean, many of us probably take too many dang food photos, but a bunch of these altogether, they can add up to real red flags, many of which we discussed during the episode here.

And one other thing to note here is that we should not feel some sort of pressure to forgive narcissists in our lives, whether those are bosses, family members, spouses, society loves this. They put pressure on us to forgive and forget, turn the other cheek, religion does this too. This person is not going to change anyway. If you do forgive them, Forgive them with eyes wide open in that they will do it again even if they say in the moment they will not and even if it seems like they mean it. Now on the plus side here, narcissists are very easy to manipulate. You can validate them. That's really all they need. And what if it feels awful or inauthentic to validate somebody who's mistreating us?

Well, you got a choice. You can do it anyway and just minimize contact or you can deal with the consequences of not doing it, which is often worse. It's important, though, not to give them oxygen. Don't descend into their mud puddles. These people love arguing. They become galvanized when they do. They get frustrated when you don't fight with them. Less is more with narcissists.

Do not give them much to work with. Basically, treat it like you're being interrogated by the cops. Treat their tantrums as if they're a rodeo clown there for your amusement. Don't take the bait. Don't take them too seriously. Maybe you don't laugh directly in their face, but just let it roll off your back. And finally, plan a self-care activity after you, you know you have to deal with them. In other words, plan coffee with a friend regularly after you

drop off your kids with a narcissistic ex-or something like that, ex-spouse, baby, mama, daddy, whatever it is. Okay, and actually finally, do not wait for them to get punished or for them to apologize or to get their comeuppance. Karma almost always just does not apply in the world of narcissism. What you see now, you're going to see it 10 years from now, only much more clearly. and the quicker you let go, the better. Ooh, great stuff from Dr. Romney. She will absolutely be back on the show. Links to all things Dr. Romney will be in the website

in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes, videos up on YouTube, advertisers, deals, and discount codes, all at Jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please do consider supporting those who support this show and this work. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can always connect with me on LinkedIn,

in, and I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same systems, software, and tiny habits that I use every single day. It's a free course, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need them. Many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong.

This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Frogerty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Barrett, Josh Ballard and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who deals with narcissists, willingly or otherwise, definitely share this episode with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me

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