The Jordan Harbinger Show - 759: Can Mom Cease As Family Man's Side Piece? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

When your mother is the other woman in some other family's affair, how do you compel her to do the right thing and walk away? We'll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/759 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: When your mother is the other woman in some other family's affair, how do you compel her to do the right thing and walk away? How much is too much when you're considering the cost of an education that should be earning you top dollar? You're no longer physically attracted to the husband who fathered your children. Should you tough it out until your kids are adults, or would it be better to separate now and hope for the best? How can you shake the family business and chart your own course when you know you'd feel guilty for abandoning what your parents have built? What should you do if you find yourself drawn to another person while you’re in a committed relationship? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my compadre in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you, we answer listener questions.

The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Annie Duke back on the show about when to quit something and when to push through, kind of like the opposite of grit, science-based quitting. Now, that's something I can get behind. Actually, even before that show, she just helped me think through a pretty big decision earlier. I was really grateful for that. So there's some meat on that bone. Also, one from the vault with fan favorite David Buss, with another one on evolutionary psychology, mating, and especially the mating crisis among educated women. We'll also discuss mate selection and how to avoid mating disasters. Sounds like I'm talking about

a pack of monkeys. And yeah, I guess since we're humans, we, I guess I am talking about a pack of monkeys, glorified monkeys over here. So make sure you've had to listen to everything that we created for you here this week. All right, got some fun ones, got some crazy ones. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my 30s. My mom is over 60 now, and she divorced my father 30 years ago.

Shortly after the divorce, she started an affair with a colleague that lasts to this day. The thing is, he's been married the whole time. She loves him, and he's not your average, exploitative, bottom feeder, but the relationship is way too comfortable for him. He likes her company, and he supports her when she needs it, but... That's about it. He and my mother hang out frequently, and she often comes home in tears because she wishes she were more than just a sidepiece. But I know he won't ever leave his wife. He's getting the best of both worlds by keeping his family, he has three children around my age,

and having an affair. To make things worse, my mother used to be a beautiful woman, and in the opinion of many, she hasn't lost her essence, but five years ago, she was hit with Bell's palsy. She's gone much better, but her face is still permanently damaged. So she keeps saying things like, he's the only one in my life who knows me prior to this curse. Who else will I ever meet now? I wish I could jump off of this, but I can't. He's so good to me. But what's your take on all this? What should I do, if anything, to help her? Signed, Helping Mom Cease, this role as a side piece. Ooh, interesting question. Gabe, I know we've gotten a lot of letters from people who have been cheated on or who have cheated. Yeah. But I don't think we've gotten one from somebody whose

parent was on the other side of this. Yep, true. Watching your mother be the other woman for 30 years. I think watching her suffer as a result, that's got to be kind of sad. But this situation is not entirely black and white. This guy your mom is involved with, look, he's obviously doing something gross and unfair. He's keeping a huge secret from his wife. He's putting your mom in the unenviable position of being his sidepiece for three decades. I mean, this guy has some issues. But then, like you said, he's not a total bottom feeder. and your mom on some level, she is choosing to accept her place in his life. She has been choosing it for 30 years.

So she bears some responsibility here too. She got involved with him knowing his situation. She stayed with him when it became clear that he wouldn't leave his family. And now she won't break up with him because, well, she feels she needs this relationship and she feels she can't do better, which is why she's willing to pay this emotional cost, which sounds pretty high. So that's what this comes down to for your mom, whether that cost is ultimately worth it. Whether the happiness and love she gets from this guy outweigh the sadness and the frustration

of just being merely the other woman. And I'm sure she's been asking herself that for years, but maybe she's avoiding confronting the choice head on, or she just hasn't had someone to really push her to sort through all of this. So if you want to help your mom here, I would invite her to explore that question. Maybe you sit down with her one day and you ask her, you know, mom, when you come home in tears because he won't leave his wife, do you feel the relationship is worth it? Why does this relationship feel so important? What are you getting out of it? Why do you think he hasn't left his wife? What does that say about him and what does that say about your place in his life? If he never leaves his wife, and this goes on for another 20, 30 years, could you be okay with that?

Will you wish you had left? And then just invite her to talk about that with you. Help her see her situation more clearly. Help her weigh all these variables. Now, I'm guessing one thing that might come up is her appearance, the Bell's palsy, maybe her age. And honestly, I do, I feel for her. Having a condition like that must be really hard to deal with. She's probably thinking, I'm 62.

part of my face is drooping. I'm in a different stage of life now. Who else is going to take me? Who's going to have me? And look, that might be true or it might not be true. But what matters is that she feels it's true. And that is informing her decision to cling to this guy. But again, that's a good question to ask your mom, whether clinging to this guy because he knew her when she was young and beautiful and before the health stuff, whether that's worth the pain. And as you guys talk about that, you might want to talk about how she values herself, what she thinks makes her worthwhile or desirable. You said she used to be beautiful, that she still has that essence, but that she's changed. And I'm guessing your mom has a lot of her self-worth wrapped up in her appearance.

It's possible she thinks people will only find her valuable if she looks a certain way. And I'm not denying that that matters, but I do wonder if your mom over-indexes her appearance and under indexes her other qualities. And whether that speaks to some self-esteem issues on her part, which might also explain why she's sought out affection from this man for so long, and why she's stuck around even though it hurts. Now, you're going to have to be careful not to immediately steer her to the outcome that you want, which is her breaking up with him, I assume, because she might bristle at that.

She might agree, and then backslide later. And in my opinion, she has to come to this decision herself, or at least get like 80% of the way there before you tell her, you know, hey, mom, it's time, you've got to end this. And the reality is she might not. She's 60 plus years old. This relationship has worked, quote unquote, on some level for 30 years. That's longer than most marriages.

She might feel that this is it for her. And the pain she feels might just be a price that she can live with. That is very true. It could go either way. I do think it's going to be hard for her to separate from this guy. after so long because like, like you said, she's clearly getting something out of this relationship. But you know, Jordan, I feel like we have to talk about a bigger thing here, which is what his mother's relationship with this guy has been like for him. I mean, the guy writing in. He's in his

30s. He's really only known his mom as this person who's been in this questionable relationship. He's watched her suffer as the other woman, basically his whole life. I got to think that's made quite an impact on him. Yeah, that's a good point, especially since they seem pretty close. He's got to have some feelings about that. He definitely does. And you know, I'm wondering if those feelings are playing a role in this impulse he has to intervene and seemingly to convince his mom to break up with this guy, not just because his mom is suffering, but because he's suffering in a way, too. Yeah, I see what you mean. You can hear a little bit of his own anger in the letter. Yeah. Like when he said that this guy has the best of both worlds and he's not going to leave his wife. He's clearly pissed off and I get it.

Yeah, I get it too. But it's interesting. Is that just his anger? at this guy, or is that him feeling his mom's anger on her behalf? You know, that's a good question. I don't know. Maybe a little bit of both, right? Probably both. But what I'm getting at is, I wonder if he's feeling his mother's pain as his own pain here. It's almost like he's a part of this affair himself, too. You know what I mean? Like, I get the sense that he's not just thinking, you know, mom, you need to get out of this. It's almost like, mom, we need to get out of this. Wow. Yeah, you actually may be on to something. So are you thinking they might be a little bit too close, the writer and mom? I guess what I'm

saying is I love that he cares about his mom. I think it's very sweet. It's appropriate to a degree, but he's clearly very identified with her. He's on her side. And she brings a lot of her relationship stuff with this other guy to her son, right? She's talking to him about being how upset she is and how she feels. And that must make it hard for her son to separate out his experience of this affair from his mom's experience of this affair. And more broadly, what choice? he would make here and what choices his mom is ultimately going to make and whether he can accept that those might be different. Right, because again, she might decide to stay with this guy and then, of course, the question

is, how does he deal with that? How does he work out these feelings if they're on opposite sides of this affair? Exactly. That's really hard because his sadness and his frustration about this relationship, yeah, that is largely his mom's stuff. But it's also his feelings about this guy, his feelings about his mom, maybe he's, maybe he's even his feelings about relationships in general. He's been on the sidelines watching this whole thing happen. I'm sure that's also left a mark. So I would take some time to sift through all of that, too. Maybe even

before you talk to your mom about what to do with this relationship, because if you're going to help her unpack this relationship, you have to separate out your stuff from her stuff as much as you can. And hey, if you do that, you might find that it's a little bit easier to accept your mom's involvement with this guy. Because then you might be in a position to look at all of this and go, wow, Like, my mom does not value herself very well. She is settling for this hurtful relationship. This is not the choice that I would make. That makes me really sad for her.

But that's what she wants. This is her, you know, her circumstances, her desires. She's her own person. She's not me. So I have to figure out what to do with these feelings on my own. It's a really good point, Gabe. I do think that their close relationship is an asset here. Because it means he has a decent shot at getting through to her.

But also, the fact that they're so close, that might be what's driving him to intervene and save her from this guy in the first place, and that can get kind of dicey. Because the line between him and mom might get a little blurred sometimes. Yeah, exactly. Right. So there you have it. Talk to your mom. Get her to open up if she can and if she wants to. But more importantly, separate out your stuff from her stuff. You got to do that. Remember, you guys are different people. I know that sounds like an obvious sort of truism, but it's got to be painful to watch a parent make a really poor decision. But it is her decision.

to make. And you may have to learn to accept this as much as it kind of sucks and then work through these feelings on your own. You might even find that those feelings, they're even more urgent than your mom's choice here. She's just dredging up stuff that you need to work through anyway, which is kind of fascinating if you think about it. So, hey, good luck. We're wishing you and your mom all the best. You know who won't treat you like a side piece? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here. To learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear all the codes for the show, they're all in one place. They're at

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for the sponsors using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right. What's next? Hi, Gabe and Jordan. I graduated college four years ago. I'm married with three children and I now work as a nurse. This job has been working out well. We've managed to get out of debt, purchase a house, and even begin saving for retirement. Last year, I got into the graduate program of my dreams, Nurse Anesthesia School. When it came time to start, I deferred for a year because I was afraid of the amount of debt I would incur, approximately $300,000. Wow.

And the fact that this program will not allow me time to work for three years. While all of the mentors I've spoken with consider this reasonable given the earning power of the degree, I hesitated, because I'm the prime. primary earner for our family. What I do now is exciting and fulfilling, and I don't think I need to go back to school to feel fulfilled. On the other hand, becoming a nurse anesthetist has been my dream for years. I would make significantly more money, and I'd enjoy a better work-life balance. Furthermore, this is a highly competitive field, and life will only become more expensive in the future, so I don't want to miss this opportunity and regret it later. Should I return to grad school? If so, how can I risk my family's financial future to pursue it? Signed, Anesthetist.

this dream or follow the green. Wow, this is exciting. Congrats on getting into the CRNA program. I'm not going to try and say nurse anesthetist a bunch of times. I like how you did that. I was like, did you just go to the acronym so you didn't have to say that nine times? Yeah, I'm going to acronymize it. I'm sure that's a ton of work and very competitive.

It's really super impressive to get into something like this. I don't think people realize that you are really get people's lives in your hands. This is a super important job. It's interesting. We usually don't take personal finance. questions on this show. Usually it's a little dry. It's impossible for us to tell you how to manage your finances, but this one stood out to us for a few reasons. First of all, it sounds like you and your wife are quite good with your money. And yes, this is a significant amount of debt to take on.

$300K is no joke. And yeah, you're going to be giving up income for three years. So there's a lot of opportunity cost here as well. That's nothing to sneeze at. But based on what you've shared, you know how to be disciplined when you have to. You know how to manage your assets. And that gives me a lot of confidence that you would manage this debt in a responsible way. Also, you're being smart and getting other opinions here. I think that's really sharp and insightful. Your mentors, they think this is a good idea and assuming that they actually know what they're talking about, I'm assuming they're also CRNAs or doctors or work in the medical field

somehow, that counts for a lot. But the most important variable here for me is that becoming a nurse anesthetist, I still did it. Nice, you did it, yeah. Has been your dream for years. Yeah, I practiced. I won't lie. It sounds like this career would be really meaningful to you, and it's going to open up space in your life to have other fulfilling experiences like spending time with your family, having a full

life, maybe your hours are going to be different. What do I know? So given all that, I got to say, I'm leaning toward going for it with this program. But if you really want to make sure that this is a sound decision, I would look at this purely as a business case, the cost of the degree and the lost earnings against the salary you'd make for the rest of your career and how quickly you can pay off these loans. Because you've heard me say this on the show before, having no debt is having freedom. Debt is a lack of freedom. It's something that I probably saw from Mark Cuban on Shark Tank or something like that. But then you're going to know whether it's worth risking your financial future to pursue it. Actually, Mark Cuban said that on our show now that I think about it. But the idea here

is you're thinking of yourself as a business. You're going to be able to make a calculation. the math is going to tell you what to do. I'm having the exact same reaction, Jordan. I also think it's worth asking how you think about risk in general. Because, yeah, taking out a huge loan, that is a risk. But so is not going to grad school and sticking with this lower salary when you have a family of five. And if you're working 12-hour shifts six days a week for the next 40 years, and you barely have time to see your children grow up and you're constantly exhausted

and your relationship suffer and on and on and on, that's a risk. too. So which risks are you willing to take on? Maybe that's the question. And what's interesting is that if the math on this degree does check out and you know that there's a reliable demand for CRNAs, so you're always going to have work and you will be able to make this money back, paying off the loan might be the least risky risk in this equation. Whereas gambling on your quality of life, your health, your family, your time, those might actually be the riskiest. That's a great point. Those variables, they're harder to quantify, but that doesn't make them any less important. In fact, they're probably more important. As for the regret piece, the fact that

you're already worried you're going to kick yourself for not getting this degree, I think that's trying to tell you something. I want you to check out this interview I did with Dan Pink on regret and how we can use it to make smarter decisions and even bring more meaning to our lives. We're going to link to that in the show notes. I think that'll be a really great listen for you, especially right now. But between the numbers and the purpose stuff and the premature regret, I do think you already know that this is worth taking seriously. So get together with your wife and explore all of this, and I'm sure it'll lead you down the right path. And good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If there's

something you're going through any big decision that you're wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on life, love, work, what to do if you're both the victim and the perpetrator of sexual abuse as a child? Still thinking about that story from last week, Gabe. Intense. We got a lot of intense questions here. Super intense. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next step. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my mid-30s, and ever since my husband and I had a baby two years ago, which he really wanted. He's morphed into someone I don't recognize, literally. He's now over 300 pounds at 5'9 and secretly binge eats junk food in his car every day, sometimes multiple times a day.

He naps in the middle of the day and spends every free moment watching YouTube or playing on his phone. We sleep in separate rooms, and he sleeps in an armchair because his obesity-related sleep apnea is so severe. He sometimes goes days without showering and weeks without brushing his teeth. Oh, that's like a very nightmare. Yeah, that's vile. He's been hospitalized twice for throat abscesses and has had to have multiple teeth pulled for neglecting his oral hygiene. We barely speak, and we definitely don't touch. He's so disgusting that it creeps me out that he goes in my bedroom. I even change my sheets after he's in the bed because he's covered in huge pimples and boils. Oh my God. He's also incredibly unpleasant to be around, and his depression frequently manifests as rage. He once told me

going to convince the court I'm crazy and take my son from me. When I called him out, he became incredibly aggressive and refused to let me leave the house. When I confront him in general, he reminds me that I wouldn't be able to maintain the house or go for a morning walk without him around, which makes me feel like I'm in a hostage situation. Yikes, this is really, really bad. He refuses to talk about any of these issues, so they remain unresolved. We tried marriage counseling for a few months, but our counselor worked in a superficial kind of way, and it didn't resolve much. When he's not around, my life is good. I have a wonderful job, hobbies I'm passionate about, a counselor who helps me cope with my anxiety, and friends who make me feel loved and appreciated.

But I don't think I can leave my husband. For one thing, I live in a state with 50-50 custody, no matter what, and I wouldn't want to subject my son to my husband's issues without my protection. For another thing, splitting time between two households is so detrimental to children's well-being. My kid needs a dad, and he needs one stable home. I'm now looking to sell my house and buy one with an extra bedroom for my husband to stay in. I know he needs help, but I can't make him get help. I will suffer through this for the rest of my life if it means that my son has a better life. But that is so hard.

I'm so lonely and so sad. Can I live like this until my son is an adult? Is there an option I'm missing? Signed, needing to grouse about. being stuck in the house with this louse of a spouse. Okay, Dr. Seuss, dang. All right. It was a little Dr. Susie, yeah.

This is really seriously a very sad and disturbing letter. Man, you've painted a really very vivid picture here of your husband, especially of his skin. It's like getting the G-Bs from that. But also of your marriage, your home, your state of mind these days, I got to say this is really stressful to hear about. I can't even imagine living it. it sounds to me like your husband is in a bad way. I mean a really, really bad way. You don't just

develop an eating addiction and balloon to 300 pounds. Look, I'm an inch taller than this guy and I'm, I bought half that weight. Half. That does paint a picture of how bad it is, yeah. Because I'm not a skinny dude, man. I'm not. And I'm like 150. And this guy's 300 pounds. I'm an inch taller. So it's crazy. You don't balloon to that weight and start raging at your wife and neglecting yourself this severely if you are not in a lot of pain. Just the teeth thing alone. The fact that he really wanted a child and now he's acting this way, man, it's just extra sad. He can't even participate in this life that he wanted or says that he wanted or maybe he didn't know what he wanted. There's so much we don't know about your husband. But one thing I can say

pretty confidently is that he was probably wrestling with some heavy stuff before the baby came along and something about this big life transition activated whatever it is, and he's working very hard to avoid dealing with this, seemingly at all. So, look, we could talk about all of this till the cows come home, but I'm just going to cut to the chase here. Your husband is in trouble. If he continues down this road, he might not even be alive for very long. It's probably difficult to understand the depth of his anger and his fear and his shame right now.

I mean, not bathing, not brushing your teeth. having to be hospitalized and undergo surgery for just basic stuff at throat abscesses and getting your teeth pulled down. That level of self-neglect speaks to a depression that is so severe. I don't even think we can wrap our minds around how painful that must be. That's just a real hopelessness on his part. And there's a big part of him that's just completely given up from the sound of it. It's just tragic.

So, obviously, my first recommendation would be to encourage him to get the help. needs, and I don't just mean going to a psychiatrist and getting a couple prescriptions to deal with the symptoms. That is obviously not going to do the job. It might even be making things worse. This guy needs to talk, and boy does he have a lot to talk about. He needs to do that with a professional. He needs to do it consistently. He's got to start getting a handle on how he ended up here. But you say you've tried to talk to him and he refuses. And look, if that's the case, I mean, if you've literally tried multiple times to genuinely and empathetic talk to him about what he's going through, help him see that he needs to see a therapist and start

taking care of himself and all that. And if other people in his life have tried the same thing and he's just ignoring you guys and continuing down this path, then you might be right. You can't make him get help. And he's on his own, at least for now, which is where this stops being about your husband and frankly starts being about you. And I'm going to be blunt here, but it's all out of love. I know you have your reasons for staying married to your husband. His behavior is a real concern. The custody question is tricky. Splitting time between two houses.

Yeah, that can be tough for a kid. It also sounds like you depend on your husband financially and logistically, and that makes things complicated. I'm not trying to dismiss any of that. But when you say that this feels like a hostage situation, which I can definitely appreciate, I also feel that you are participating in this hostage situation by refusing to even consider separating. And you say this splitting time between two households is so detrimental to children's well-being. Maybe it is. Look, there's probably some studies on this that I haven't

seen. But so is growing up and watching your father scream at your mother, threaten to take you away from your mother, block the door when your mother wants to leave the house in a threatening way. So, you know what else is traumatizing? Having a father who's in this much pain, who's physically repulsive, who's not healthy enough to spend time with you, can't play with you, can't relate to you, is in surgery for stuff, smells, right? I mean, I can imagine how somebody who goes weeks without brushing their teeth is in the house and has abscesses and stuff. Not fun to be around. Not fun. And who's depressed and angry. Growing up in a home where your scary dad spends all day in a spare bedroom with his CPAP machine, like some kind of obese Bertha Mason and your mom goes

about her life pretending the guy doesn't even exist, that's traumatizing. That's damaging. And so is absorbing the message from a young age that, hey, when things get this bad, you don't try to work on them or remove yourself from the situation, you just deal with it, you just pretend it's not there. That is what's detrimental to a child. I would argue that's much more detrimental than living between two homes, if it ever came to that. Now, if your husband is actually abusive to your son, that obviously complicates matters. But if that's the case, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you can use that to get full custody. They're not going to give somebody 50-50 custody if they're abusive. You can get a supervised visitation, something like that. That's going to

remove a big obstacle here. But look, the one thing we agree on is that your kid needs a dad and he needs a stable home. So my question to you is, I know that this is a little blunt, but do you really think he has that now? From where I'm sitting, the answer is clearly no. This is not a healthy father. This is not a stable home. And yeah, your son is a toddler, but real soon he's going to be talking and feeling and absorbing all of this. And look, I'm going to be honest with you, he already is. My kid's three. He's been very perceptive for two years now. He can't articulate what he's feeling, but he knows. And as scary as it is, I think you need to strongly consider whether this arrangement is really the lesser of two evils, or, and this is a hard question to ask yourself, is this just the path of least resistance in terms of making a decision here? And look, I'm not saying you've got to divorce your husband tomorrow, but I think you need to take a closer look at these assumptions that you have and try to see your own situation more clearly. Because sticking around and quarantining your husband to a small part of your life, that probably seems like the only solution when your view of the situation is this rigid.

Wow. Well said, Jordan. Honestly, I think she already knows that she might not be right about this. Because look at her question. I'm so lonely. I'm so sad. Can I live like this until my son is an adult? Is there an option? I'm missing. I mean, she already is sort of on to herself, right? She knows. Yes, She knows, she wrote to us because of this, man. I mean, she probably knew 60, 75% of what we were going to say, if not how we were going to say it. She knows this situation is totally messed up. She knows that she might be making a huge mistake. And she knows deep down that she has more agency here than she might think, right?

My sense of this is that she's moving between feeling like a hostage and feeling like a co-conspirator. Yes, yes, a co-conspirator. Good word. Her husband might have been the one who went off the deep end, clearly. He put her in this awful position. Okay. But now that things are at this point, they are co-creating this life together. Yes.

And as long as she clings to these very rigid principles, which maybe she grew up with, like, you can never get divorced. It's the worst thing ever. Well, I mean, okay, but is it, though? A kid needs one home. I'm going to suffer through the rest of my life if it means my son has a better life. I mean, who knows where those patterns came from? But all that, she's colluding with him to be miserable. And I know that sounds really harsh.

and I don't want it to sound like I'm callous here, but there it is. Yeah, it's interesting. I also hear some martyrdom in those statements. Totally, totally. She's putting her son's needs, or what she perceives her son's needs to be above her own needs, and also in a weird way, putting her husband's needs above her own needs, even though she despises him by wanting to get him in a room in a new house so that they can just chug along and not have to interact too much

and just not deal with the marriage and what the state of this relationship is. Yeah, don't even get me started in the buying the house thing. It's like, well, I could leave him or we can just rearrange, we can move all of our earthly possessions to a new location in a new house where he has his own little domicile where we can just ignore him. It's like instead of dealing with the elephant in the living room, sorry, that's an unkind pun that I did not intend to make. You're just going to build an entirely different living room and be like, well, well, you don't have to deal with that anymore. I mean, that is ridiculous. But you got to ask yourself, where are you in all this? Exactly. I would be really curious to know where she picked up the message that the answer to a crisis like this is to resign yourself to it and suffer in silence and put other people's needs first. I wonder if that's her template, her pattern to your point. Maybe from her own childhood, that might be recreating itself now.

I think that's a good point. And I also think it's possible that she's using her baby to justify that template. She's saying, I can't leave. My baby deserves a stable home, which sounds noble, but she really might just be sticking around because, she's terrified, she doesn't trust herself, or she's afraid of challenging these ideas she has about how family and marriage should work. There's a million reasons why this could be the case. So, yeah, a lot going on here. But that is our take. I know it's probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's maybe what you needed to hear, or at least what you need to consider. And obviously, you can make whatever decision you feel is best, but I would not close yourself off from legitimate options just because they don't fit the concepts that you're clinging to. Part of your job here is to really investigate those and see if they're serving you

and your son as well as you think they are. And listen, as you work through all this, I would keep encouraging your husband to get help. I wouldn't give up on him just yet until it becomes absolutely clear that he truly cannot or will not be helped. Because even if you guys do end up separating, you need to have the healthiest co-parent possible. Your son's going to need the best dad possible or a dad who's around and doesn't, you know, die young from Cheetos. I hope he gets to a place where he's willing and able to accept your help. Look, I know I'm keeping it light in some places here, but I really feel for

this dude. This guy's a wreck. This guy, I really have serious, serious sympathy for this dude. Imagine being that miserable. It's just horrible. So hang in there. I know this is a really dark time, but there is a way forward one way or the other. And we're wishing you, your son, and your husband all the best. Yeah, Gabe, you just don't get that way unless there's tremendous pain. You would have to try so hard to get that way in two years. I mean, this is like a light switch went off on this guy. And whenever your life changes that much for the worse, it's traumatizing. And of course, you just can't deal with it, won't deal with it. It's just a sad situation. Oof. Well, you know, it'll make your wallet 300 pounds heavier. The crazy deals on the products and services that support

this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you've found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and supportive listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. They're amazing. They put up with a lot of crap because we put them in tough places all the time. To learn more and get links to all the discounts on the show, all of the deals, they're at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also go to the website at Jordan Harbinger.com and search for any sponsor using the search box right there on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support us. Keeps the lights on, keeps us making these things week in, week out. All right. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For the last eight years, I've worked at a 200-person company owned and run by my mother and father. I joined the company straight out of high school, and I've climbed up to earn my place as a valued member of the staff. The thing is, I'm now at a stage where I want to move on to bigger and better things. But I manage the largest department and I'm responsible for many roles that only I know how to do, so it would have quite an impact if I left. On top of that, both my parents are now suffering from health issues that seem to be a result of the enormous stress that they're under keeping this company going through an extremely tough past few years. My mother is ill almost every other day and spends 90% of the weekend bedridden. My father never stops working and I can see his anxiety increasing too.

He used to speak to me and the other staff in a tone of quiet confidence, and now he talks with a great deal of worry. I want to start a new career, but I'm sticking around so I don't add to my parents' stress and health issues. I know that I wouldn't be able to shake the guilt if I were to leave. What do you think I should do? Signed, the captive prince. Yeah, this is a really tough position to be in. You're torn between charting your own path and making your parents happy,

which, by the way, very common in family and family and businesses. This is not easy. I'm sure it's even harder, given your parents' health and mental state these days. That makes this whole thing even trickier. So first of all, I just want to say, if you're feeling this urge to change careers, I think you owe it to yourself to consider it. You can't let your parents hold you back from building the life that you want. I understand your reasons for sticking around, but you deserve to build a career that's fulfilling too. You're 26. You joined when you were 18. This is the only company you've ever worked for, branching out, working for people who aren't your parents, carving out new goals,

challenges, opportunities. That stuff is all really important. And it's healthy. It's healthy for you to separate from your parents' issues just a little bit and healthy for you to carve out an identity of your own. That said, it's got to be so hard to watch your parents falling apart as they try to keep this company afloat and just be like, hey, sorry guys, I'm moving on to bigger and better things. Peace. I honestly don't know how you even broach that conversation. Gabe, What are you thinking here, man? This is a delicate one. Oof, this is hard. I feel for this guy. He's in a real bind. But, you know, I find this whole situation really interesting, right? The company has been struggling for the past few years.

We don't know exactly why it could be the market, could be the industry, could be their company and how they run it, could be all of them. His parents, though, are clearly running it in a way that is taking a real toll on them. Meanwhile, he's carved out a role for himself that only he can do. so leaving would have a huge impact so he's afraid to go. I do wonder if all of those things are connected somehow. How so? Okay, well, obviously something is not working here, right? His mom is constantly sick.

She spends every weekend in bed. His father is tethered to the business. He's super anxious. Their son has made himself irreplaceable, or at least very difficult to replace, which, look, that's a big compliment in a way. But it might also be a sign that they haven't set up this company to run as well as it could. if this were not a family-owned business, right? If this son were just some executive they hired and a consultant came in and looked to the company, that person would probably say, look, this is a

risk. You've got to find a way to institutionalize this guy's knowledge. You've got to spread some of his responsibilities around, maybe create a training program or something like that so other people can learn what he does. Or look, if a coach came in and worked with his parents, they would probably say, this is not sustainable. You guys need better support around you. You need to learn how to collaborate, you need to learn how to delegate, you have to create some systems and some processes that will allow this company to run without you, or at least run without you guys being here, you know, 16 hours a day every day. But in smaller businesses, and especially in family-owned businesses, to your point, Jordan, this sort of thing happens a lot. The founders

tend to be super involved, their children tend to take on a lot of responsibility. And look, they often have an emotional investment in the business that makes it really hard to step back and say, where do I really need to be right now? Which jobs can I give up? What can I entrust to other people? Can this business thrive or even survive if I'm not involved in every single decision? That's definitely true. I feel like I've seen that mentality in a lot of small businesses. And you know, it's even showing up with the guy writing in. He can't even entertain other options because he couldn't live with the guilt, which is interesting, right? You don't feel guilty unless you feel profoundly responsible on some level. beholden even. Yeah, this is more than just, I really want to make sure my parents are okay. And if I leave,

you know, it might be hard. No, he's like, I can't even talk to them about this. Because if I do this to them, if me leaving screws them over, it's going to be like a weight I have to carry around for my entire life. So you have two things to solve here. One, find a way to transition out of the company without disrupting the business. And two, make sure that your parents are okay. And it seems like those two things are in conflict, but I actually think that they are both symptoms of a larger issue, which is, again, how this company operates. So here's my crazy idea. What if you put your consultant head on? You looked at your parents' company like an outsider, and you try to diagnose all of the issues that are taking such a huge toll on your parents. You could come up with a list of recommendations

that would make the company stronger, faster, more efficient, whatever it is, help your parents manage it in a way that is actually sustainable. Maybe some of those ideas are about strategy, maybe some of them are more operational, maybe some of them are technical. I'm sure a few of them will be about your parents' leadership style, maybe even how they manage their stress and make decisions together. I'm sure there's a lot going on here. I would look at everything. And then you could give yourself a timeline, let's say, you know, six months, nine months a year, whatever it is, and say, I'm going to work with my parents to set this place up as well as I can, and I'm going to make their jobs easier, and I'm going to make it possible for me to leave without disrupting

anything. And then you could work closely with your parents to get their input and hopefully implement those solutions, really make them partners in writing the next chapter of this company. If you could do that, if you could do even half of that, I bet it would make a huge difference. But the best change you could make, it's funny, it's actually kind of paradoxical, which is figuring out how to make you and your parents obsolete. In other words, to set the company up to operate without them, or at least without them killing themselves, if you can find ways for them to run the company without compromising their health and their sanity and without your mom being bedridden every weekend and sick all the time and your father anxious and you feeling

guilty for maybe leaving, you will be giving your entire family a huge gift, and you'll create the conditions for you to start the new chapter of your career without feeling like you're ruining this entire company. Well, I love that idea. It's really smart. I also think that, hey, if he can pull that off, he'll have an amazing story to tell when he interviews at other companies. Good point. It won't just be, you know, mommy and daddy hooked me up with a job and I carved out a big role for myself. It'll be my mom and dad brought me into their company, and I completely transformed the company to operate in a better way, and this was the result. And that could be the reason he finds a great new role somewhere. But look, if your parents don't want to change how they do things,

or they change things but they're still super stressed all the time because that's the only way they know how to respond to things, then at some point you have to learn to separate and chart your own path. It's really interesting. It's kind of like the guy from question one a little bit, right? Yeah, well, I am just realizing both of these guys are very identified with their parents, which makes perfect sense. How can you not be? But you can see how that over-identification leads to some difficult feelings. In question one, a lot of anger and shame, and in this situation, tremendous anxiety and guilt, it's fascinating. But again, you can't lose sight of your life here, and I know that sounds cold, but you have your whole life ahead of you. And I don't

think it's fair to hold yourself back because you want to protect your parents. Help them as much as you can, empower them to grow, show them a better way of doing things, but also keep an eye on your needs too. If you can do that, I know you'll be great. Your parents are lucky to have you around. Good luck. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 25, and I've been with my 29-year-old partner for five years. While he can be kind, caring, and sweet, he has anger issues that veer into emotional abuse and controlling behavior. When the abuse came to a head, I tried to leave him, but I didn't have the willpower. I don't know if it's because of his begging, or if I'm scared of being alone, or because we're meant to be together. Yeah, okay, let me stop you right there.

There's no such thing as meant to be together. 99 times out of 100, this phrase serves as a rationalization for bad behavior, or it's a dysfunctional relationship. This is essentially a thought-terminating cliche. So we talk about this when we talk about cults. Like, they'll use something that rhymes or sounds clever. Quitters never win and winners never quit. One of those things where it's like, okay, I guess I'm going to persevere in the face of everything.

Meant to be together? By what? By what? There's not some one person, I mean, it's just sort of magical thinking that we're now using to rationalize the fact that these people are miserable. with each other, but it's like, well, what if we're meant to be together? We just have to put up with all this. No, no, no. No and no. Yeah, and what does it mean to say we are meant to be together? Like, by what metric, right?

Like, is it some sort of cosmic thing? Or are you actually saying that you're compatible and there are good things in this? Yeah, it's fascinating. What it means is at some deeper level, we are compatible. So all these other things that are really obviously going wrong in our relationship, we should just forget about those or try to work those out because something, something the constellation of Aquarius says we should live our whole lives together. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a rationalization. It's an excuse process. It is. She's also saying that she didn't have the willpower to leave. Sure. Maybe she's chalking up her inability to leave to the fact that they are meant to be together when really those have nothing to do with each other. It just could be that

it's really hard for her to break up with this guy. I think so. So interesting. Yeah. Okay. So the letter goes on. So instead of breaking up, we tried to fix things. We started seeing a couple's therapist who strongly encouraged my partner to see a personal therapist, which he's sticking with. The abusive behaviors have somewhat reduced, and we're now in a better-ish place. But we still argue badly three or four times a week. Picture screaming matches in public, things being thrown, threats to break up, and each of us leaving the house to cool down. To add to the complexity of the situation, I've developed a crush on my ex-colleague. I think the feelings might be reciprocal because of a few comments here and there and the way our hugs tend to linger. We've only met in person about four

times, but he's so much fun and makes me happy. I'm convinced that he might be the funniest man on earth. We text each other every few weeks, and I feel a jolt of electricity every time I see his name on my phone. Just to be clear, though, nothing has ever happened between us. My head is a mess. I don't know what to do. Do I stick it out with the guy I've been with for five years who's trying to change for the better, who knows my flaws and accepts me regardless? Or is this crush a sign that my heart is not fully in this relationship, and I should leave him for good? Signed, a damsel and her dueling dudes. Ooh, good question. I really like this stuff sometimes. It's kind of a throwback to my dating coach days, and I am here for it. This is like a question I would get back 10, 12 years ago.

So my usual advice in situations like this is if you find yourself drawn to another person when you're in a committed relationship, and I mean in a significant way that goes beyond a harmless initial attraction to some gal at the gym or guy at the gym, whatever it is, that's probably a sign that the relationship isn't right in some way, big or small, and you should take some time to figure out what you really want. I know life can get messy sometimes, but I would say 99% of the time. If you're with the right person or a right person, and the relationship is solid, you're just not going to be fantasizing

about what it would be like to be with somebody else. You wouldn't feel a jolt of electricity every time that person sends you a text. Or if you do have some of those feelings, you would know what to do with them. You put them away, you acknowledge them, but you don't act on them

because you know you're with the right person or a right person, you're happy in your relationship and a story. So when somebody writes in telling us they're in a monogamous relationship and they have a crush on somebody else, like a real one, My take is, hmm, that new person might or might not be a good partner for you, but what they

definitely are is a sign that something is not right. And if you're going to break up with your current partner, you got to do it primarily because you're not certain about that relationship and absolutely not just because you want to be with some other person. I could not agree more, Jordan. In this case, though, I think that principle is even more important because this relationship sounds, I don't even know what to call it. It does not sound great.

It sounds very stressful. You say your boyfriend has controlled you, emotionally abused you, you guys went to therapy to work on it, your boyfriend started individual therapy, which, look, I really commend both of you for doing that. That is terrific. But you're still getting into these vicious fights three or four times a week? Yeah. And let's keep in mind that these are not just, you know, heated arguments where something's

getting resolved. This is like they're screaming at each other at frigging Trader Joe's, throwing stuff at each other in the frozen food aisle. I mean, you do not want to get hit with a quattro-famagi pizza. Trust me, we're going to leave a mark, man. You might be able to take a couple hits from one of those chili vera-boretoes or whatever, but a quattro famaji, you're playing with fire, man. No, dude, those pizza boxes of sharp edges, yeah, you can, like, throw that like a ninja star.

Indeed. But seriously, you're fantasizing about breaking up. You're getting in your car and peeling off because you literally can't be around each other. This is bad. Yeah, it's bad. This isn't productive conflict. It sounds like chaos, basically. So look, again, I'm thrilled you guys are working on it. It sounds like your boyfriend is getting better. That's really commendable. If he can get better and he's willing to work on this, obviously, he deserves that chance. But given that the relationship is still this rocky and you're having feelings for someone else, I really do wonder if it's time to consider taking some time apart. I do, especially since it's very hard for you to leave, like you said, which I imagine is also part of this abusive dynamic and something you should definitely be exploring too, ideally in individual therapy of your own, but that's

a whole other topic. Bottom line, you guys might need to separate in order to see things more clearly. With you 100% Gabe, I thought it was interesting when she asked if she should stick around with the guy she's been with for five years who, and in her words, knows her flaws and accepts her regardless. What a telling question, right? Yeah, very telling. Because sure, they have this long history. And yeah, he knows her flaws and accepts her. Although, but okay, but if he accepts her, then why is he also treating her so poorly? Well, right. That might not even be an accurate picture of this relationship. Right.

But even if he did accept her flaws and she accepted his, it still doesn't mean the relationship is right. Yeah, good point. I'm more interested in whether they're working on their flaws in a meaningful way and becoming better partners to each other and whether there's still real love here. Not fear of leaving or being alone, not attachment to the past, not some weird sense of loyalty to the other person or to the universe with this grand plan, but real love.

So only you can answer if your heart is fully in this relationship. But, hey, also, I'm not sure your heart should be in a relationship that's this toxic. And if you decide to break up, again, do it for you, not for this other guy. You can explore things with him when the time is right. If it ever is, maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't. But you have to get your house in order first, your heart house and your mind house, if you will. And if you do that, the rest is going to fall into place.

I promise. Gabe, 25 years old, been in a relationship. for five years. I mean, this is, I mean, no disrespect. When you have that little life experience, you say things like maybe we're meant to be with each other. I mean, that's, that's the domain of sort of baloney, Instagram, quotey, fortune cookie relationship phrases. She is very young. This could be that huge relationship that teaches her some crucial lessons that she just needs to learn in her 20s, but also, yeah, five years when you're 25, so 20% of her life has been with this guy. Yeah. She asked, there's a lot for her to learn and see. Yeah. Yeah, I think this is one of those,

where even if they were getting along quite well, it might even be good for them to be apart for a while just so they can figure out who they are outside of the relationship. Totally. So I hope they get to do that. Hope y'all enjoyed listening this week. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who tuned in.

Thank you so much. Go back and check out Annie Duke and David Bus, if you haven't done so yet. All of the guests are booked on the show because I am using software systems and tiny habits, digging the well before we get thirsty, teaching you how to do the same thing in a non-shmoosy, non-gross way

over on the think-ific platform at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. The drills take just a few minutes per day. Ignore it at your own peril. I really found this stuff super helpful throughout my whole life. I just wish I knew it earlier. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode is at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes.

Advertisers, deals, discounts all at Jordan Harbinger. com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. in. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your

own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. Hey, if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. There is a world out there, but we don't see it as it is. So this isn't philosophy. This is just laws of physics. So if a tree falls in the wind, no noise there to hear, it doesn't make a sound,

know. It creates energy, but the sound is a construct of your brain. So the tree exists, the energy exists, but your brain then turns that into something useful, which is sound. Light, all the light that's coming around us, right? It's bouncing off objects, and then it's changing when it's an object, and then it comes to our eyes, right? But our retina has no access to the light directly, nor to the surfaces. All it literally has access to is energy. And that's where your brain is actually constructing a meaning. And it's that meaning that you're seeing. You're not seeing the energy.

You're detecting the energy, but you're not seeing it. Language is not a construct of the world. Think about perceptions of pain. Is pain an illusion? Of course it's not an illusion. It's a meaningful perception. But it's not something that exists in the world. There aren't painful things in the world.

If we weren't here, pain would not exist. We can't hear the five sounds of A that people in Scandinavia use. Right, right. We can't see certain shades of red that Russians can see. Really? Yeah. And it's only when you have awareness of why you're doing what you're doing that creates the possibility of doing it differently. Now, of course, if you don't have eyes, you can't choose to see.

You still have to function in a world that has gravity, right, that has light, but we have more freedom than we think we do. We have more agency than we think we do. So the world is always changing and complexifying, and we need to complexify with it. and we never could if we always just see it as it really is. For more about how our brains produce vision and the constructs our brain makes to build our world, check out episode 177 with Bo Lato here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practice. useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star

reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.