The Jordan Harbinger Show - 769: Narcissist's Antics Make Parents Go Frantic | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Most resources seem to focus on how to separate from people with narcissistic behaviors and get them out of your life — but what are you supposed to do when you’re the loving parent of an adult narcissist and you just want them to have a normal family and a fulfilling, productive life? We'll try to find an answer to this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/769 On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: As a loving parent who really wishes the best for your children, is it possible to reconcile with a violent, gaslighting, blame-deflecting 20-year-old, narcissistic son, or is it time to just cut your losses and move on? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula for helping us field this one!] As someone with abandonment issues, PTSD, and depression, it drives you nuts that the person you're dating frequently goes for days without contacting you. Should you keep pushing for this relationship, or accept that your personalities may just not be compatible? When your father was killed in an ATV accident, the driver who picked up the vehicle offered to buy it for $800. Five months after putting down $200, he has still not paid the balance and you're wondering if you can repossess the ATV or report it as stolen. [Thanks to attorney Corbin Payne for helping us answer this one!] Jordan and Gabe compare what they've learned over this past year of answering Feedback Fridays together, and extend special thanks to Corbin Payne, Dr. Erin Margolis, Michelle Tillis Lederman, Alisa Cohn, and all the other brilliant people who have helped us out in 2022! Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday, producer, the latest American to ruin the country of Portugal, Gabriel Mizrahi. It looked like you had an amazing time out there, Gabe. I did. I did. You're just killing the medieval castle pit game on Instagram. Here's me with my foot up looking out at the view, and here's me with my arms spread out looking at the view. And here's me inside the little window thing. looking at the view. I'll take the window thing. I resent the implication that I ever put my hands out like some kind of influencer

selling an e-book on how to be a digital nomad in Western Europe. I don't think there was a big open-arm pick, but there was definitely a pick where I was like looking up at the sky

with my sunglasses on in a fashion that, yes, is very, very influencer and I apologize for that. Hashtag blessed. Just appreciating life, guys. Anyway, on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories,

secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.

If you are new to the show, on Fridays we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week we had kind of part two of my interview with Shaham Das. This actually wasn't even a continuation of part one. We just decided to talk about famous cases in sort of pop culture right now. So Shaham's job, if you heard part one, was to evaluate whether somebody was insane and that's why they committed a crime or whether they were just a bad person. So do they go to jail or do they go to a psychiatric treatment facility. And I wanted to ask about Alex Jones. And I wanted to ask about

Andrew Tate and other people that are very popular right now for one reason or another and say, what is wrong with this person in your professional opinion? And we go over his diagnosis, what he thinks based on their behavior. We talked about Anna Delvey, Gabriel. He looked at finding Anna. Great case study. Inventing Anna. Sorry. And I said, is she a sociopath or is she just a clever con artist, what's going on here? And so we talked about all these kinds of folks and went over what makes a psychopath. And one from the vault, Chase Hughes, where we talk about human behavior, body language, nonverbal communication. He does a lot of stuff on YouTube as well, the behavior panel. One of those guys, this was a very popular episode when we released it. And so we're bringing it

back for y'all. Make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything that we created for you here this week. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Our relationship with our 20-year-old son has been strained for years. He effectively failed freshman year of college despite getting straight A's in high school. He returned home for a year, worked very little, and was a major source of contention, usually after we asked him to do simple chores and clean up after himself. Then, three months ago, he planned a road trip with some friends, and we agreed to let him borrow our car. A big argument broke out, leaving my wife with bruises, and he drove off on his own.

Since then, we've communicated through email and texts, but only when he wants something from us or wants to argue about who's to blame. We've been talking with professionals who suggested that he might be narcissistic. That totally fits with our experiences with him ever since he was young, entitlement, manipulation,

rewriting history, blaming others, aggressive behavior, and justifying everything he wants. Unfortunately, most resources I found talk about how to separate from people with narcissistic behaviors and get them out of your life. Not much about what to do when you're their parent and you love them and you just want to have a normal family. We've learned about setting boundaries but have not been very good at enforcing them. As of now, he's not allowed to return home. We arranged for him to stay with an aunt, but he's wearing out his welcome with her. He's now planning to join the military, which could either be good

for him or a total disaster. The thing is, he still has a our car, and he's demanding that I pay him to get it back. I can see him using it as leverage to get back at us. We would be within our rights to involve the police, but that could sabotage his options for the military, which is the only positive thing going for him right now. How can a relationship like this be repaired? Do we need to expect a different type of relationship? What will that look like without continuing to be a victim? And what do we do about the car? Signed two worn-out parentals trying to be gentle without going mental. Oh, man, this is such a sad story.

It's such a tough dynamic. You know, I can't even imagine if this were my son, I would just be heartbroken. I'd also, I'd be friggin' infuriated, really, really angry. So I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm very sorry that you've been struggling with your son for so long. Drawing a line with anyone is hard, but drawing a line with your own child, standing up to them, even when they desperately need help. I'm sure that goes against all your instincts as a parent, and I really feel for you here, but your son, he's clearly a real problem. He's a risk to you and

your wife, physically and emotionally, and obviously something has to change here. But handling textbook capital N narcissists, it's very tricky. So we wanted to run all of this by an actual expert. We reached out to the one and only Dr. Romney, clinical psychologist and author of several books, including should I stay or should I go, surviving a relationship with a narcissist. That's available on our books page, Jordan Harbinger.com slash books. She was also on the show recently. We did a two-part interview about narcissism that was absolutely fascinating. So we knew she'd be a great person to share your story with. And she got back to us very quickly. Of course, the first thing Dr. Romney said is that you and your wife are grappling with something that many parents

struggle with. An emerging adult child who's showing a lot of antagonism. and or narcissistic tendencies. And it sounds like this behavior has been a part of his pattern for some time. Now that he's 20, which means he's toward the end of that stage where the adolescent brain is still developing and the personality is still settling. He's working through that immature, kind of disregulated stuff you often see in younger people that kind of burns off. I mean, I had it.

I don't know. You probably didn't have it, Gabriel. I had it. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But he's not in that phase anymore, is he? Right. He's kind of getting out of that phase. So sadly, that means this behavior.

is probably here to stay. Sure, he could be a little bit behind, but this is a little bit egregious for somebody that age. In Dr. Romney's view, everything you're describing, it definitely does track with narcissism. Obviously, she can't make a diagnosis.

Neither can we. But all of this does fit. And if your son is still like this and is mid to late 20s, then in her experience, you will have to resign yourselves to having a narcissistic adult child. and you're going to have to make your decisions accordingly.

And I just want to pause for a second here and appreciate how difficult that is to come to terms with. Because I get the sense that you guys have been living somewhere between fully accepting your son for who he is and hoping that he'll get better. Or at least that you won't have to have your guard up all the time and you guys might get to have a functional relationship again. And hey, that makes sense. It must be incredibly painful to a... acknowledge that your son behaves in this very hurtful, very dysfunctional way, and that he just might not get better, or at least that you can't make him get better. And I imagine that a big part of

this stage you're going through is just getting to that point, that point of acceptance, because that probably entails a lot of sadness, a lot of anger, and I would imagine a form of grief, grief about the son you once had, the kid who pulled straight A's, the kid who, at the very least was self-motivated, driven, building a bright future, and a kind of grief about the sun you wish you had now, right? The continuation of the good guy that you saw before. It's just a very intense process to be in. Because as Dr. Romney pointed out, very few parents want to cut their children off. I would imagine almost no parent wants to do this. You probably still see the small child in your son. You see his potential. You see yourselves. You might even see your own

mistakes, but when a parent has to pull back in this way, in her words, it's a landscape of grief and pain. But that's the process you have to go through to get to the position Dr. Romney is talking about, where you're just ready to say, well, this is our son, we can't change him, all we can do now is figure out how we are going to respond. So how do you respond? What do you actually do about a child like this? Well, first of all, in Dr. Romney's view, repairing a relationship with an adult, it's a two-way street. It can't be you guys constantly relenting and catering to him and him behaving the exact same way. Obviously, that's only going to validate and reinforce this template. The obvious answer is that he needs to go to therapy ASAP. There's so much for him to work on

by himself, including any trauma in his past that might have contributed to his personality. and you guys would really benefit from working on all of this together in family therapy, in my opinion, and in Dr. Romney's opinion. But hey, look, that's going to be difficult. And all the more difficult because your son is over 18. He's pretty oppositional. And if you're like, hey, listen, we need to work on this. Can we please go talk this out in Dr. Feinberg's office?

I'm guessing he's going to blow that off. It might even piss him off more. And Dr. Romney also pointed out that even with therapy, the wiggle room with personality styles like your sons, it's somewhat restricted. Again, these antagonistic personalities, they're just really difficult to navigate. They are so difficult to navigate, which really only leaves one real option for you and your wife right now, which is disengaging and distancing. Basically, you guys will probably have to ratchet down your expectations of your son, and accept that he won't change very much, definitely not until he's ready to anyway, and start to draw

some of these hard boundaries, you know, what you will and will not tolerate. And then, of course, actually enforce those boundaries as hard as that is. Dr. Romney said that you might even make your position with him conditional. You know, like, yes, we'll engage with you if you're going to therapy, if you're holding down a job, if you're treating us respectfully. But again, whether that will work, unfortunately, I don't know, Jordan, I don't have high hopes of that. But that's why the boundaries are so important. But Dr. Romney was very emphatic about this. If you can't enforce these boundaries, then you're helping to embolden this very antagonistic young man. Right, because without those boundaries, your son will almost certainly keep positioning himself as the victim, which is

precisely what this personality style does in her experience. This is a very common MO for narcissists. And I know that's a really hard stance to take with your own child, but when it gets tough, Dr. Romney said that you might want to recognize that multiple things can be true at the same time. He can be your son and you can love him deeply and you can believe that his behavior is unacceptable and that he might not accept professional intervention and that you have to set boundaries so you don't enable him. And also that if you set boundaries, he might lash out at you or cut you off. And also that you have to be clear on your bottom line with him because each time you aren't, he will encroach further, according to Dr. Romney, and that you're doing this because you aren't fully safe with

him, and this might not be the close and loving relationship that you hoped for. It might even dwindle for a period of time to no relationship at all, potentially, and that that might be the necessary consequence of responding appropriately to a child who hurts you. And embracing those difficult facts, living in those contradictions, that's part of the acceptance. That's part of the grief Jordan was just talking about a moment ago, too. And look, we talk about boundaries a lot. I won't go on and on about, you know, what they should look like, but we are going to link to a bunch of Feedback Friday episodes where we went pretty deep into how to draw good boundaries. I highly recommend giving those a listen. We're going to drop those in the show notes for you. As for the whole

car thing, Dr. Romney was pretty unequivocal on that point, too. She said she can almost guarantee that your son will use money or assets as a tool and a form of manipulation. For sure. Yeah. This could even get to a point where he says something like, if you don't give me the money, I will never speak to you again, or if you don't let me have the car, I'm going to run off to the army, or whatever it is. And then you're in a standoff. And if you guys blink and hand over the money, you will be setting a precedent that will be very hard to break out of. So in Dr. Romney's opinion, you have two options. Option one, as you mentioned, legal intervention, calling the police, or option two, you just let the car go and you don't bring it up

again and see what happens. Dr. Romney actually brought up a really interesting point about that, which is if you guys disengage, if you stop interacting with your son as though he has the same empathy and the same self-awareness that you do, and you stop feeding his narrative that, you know, his life is so unfair, he might just give you the car back because it's not interesting. to him anymore. Although, again, you can't bank on that 100%, but it is possible. The more important thing, in her view, is breaking out of this toxic dance you're in with him. And yeah, that means disengaging a little, redefining the terms of your relationship, and also recognizing that any time you ask him to do something, you probably make things worse because

your son gets his juice from being oppositional, which is another really important thing to remember about narcissistic or otherwise difficult people, you usually have to feed them with conflict in order for them to have power. Ah, interesting. Right. So it takes two to tango kind of situation, even though one person is kind of innocent in this situation. Right. So there you have it. Sadly, there isn't one easy fix for your son. It's more about entering a new stage of your relationship with him and with yourselves. As Dr. Romney put it when we talk to her, we often have to break our own hearts to stay in a relationship like this, especially if we're dealing with a child, the one thing you guys can and should do. And Dr. Romney said the same thing. Strongly consider getting into therapy,

ideally with somebody who understands narcissism. You guys could use some support in processing this grief and pain around your son, and having that space will be really useful as you reassess your relationship with him over time. Again, I'm so sorry that you're in this situation. I'm so sorry for your son, too. Who knows, maybe you guys getting tougher with him will be the first step in a process that ultimately forces him to confront the person he's become. That does happen. These boundaries might make things bumpy for a while, and it might be painful sometimes, but I'm confident that in the end, it'll be healthier and easier than certainly than what's happening now. We're sending you and your wife good thoughts, wishing you all the best,

and big thanks to Dr. Romney for her great insight here. If you want to learn more about narcissism from one of the leading experts on narcissism. I highly recommend listening to my interview with her. I would also check out her books, websites, social channels. They are terrific. We're going to link to all of those in the show notes as well. You know what's great to take with you on a road trip and a car that you stole from your parents, Gabriel?

Nice. One of the products and or services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers and sponsors keeps us going. All of the discounts, all the deals, they're all in one page, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

You can also search for the sponsors using the search box on the website as well. Please do consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hey, guys. I recently went on a couple of dates

with a guy I met on Tinder, and we had a really nice connection. When we talk on the phone, I feel heard and understood. He's very knowledgeable and kind, and I love that about him. He's a successful entrepreneur, very smart, funny, good-looking, so I know I'm not the only girl who wants his attention.

The thing is, he often doesn't call or text me back for hours or even days at a time. He says that it's because he's running his business and doesn't check his phone a lot and wants to spend most of his time doing his own thing so the business can grow. I want to believe him because he seems like a sincere person, but I find it hard to believe that he really doesn't look at his phone. I mean, how hard could it be to ask me how I'm doing once a day? I've shared this feeling with him, and he just keeps saying that that's just the way he is. He even said that he had to end previous relationships because of the same issue.

After that, I tried to keep in contact with him while not bothering him too much, but I started to feel unseen. Finally, I told him I didn't want to entertain our conversations anymore because I felt like we weren't going anywhere. He said he was really upset, but that he understood where I was coming from. He also said I would be okay, and he was going to be okay. but insecure me called him again, and we talked about everything. I asked him how he felt about me cutting him off,

and he said that he really cared about me, and that even when he doesn't text me, he thinks about me. I want to believe him, but I don't know if I'm asking for too much. There's a voice in my head that tells me he's being honest, and then there's a louder voice telling me that he doesn't really like me, and he's playing me. But then I feel really good about him. I also recognize that I have abandonment issues,

and I can get easily triggered by things that other people might not. I've been through a lot in the past few years, and I have PTSD and depression, so I know I can be a handful. I go to therapy, and I am on medication, but I honestly don't know if I might be the toxic one here. Do I keep pushing for this relationship? Or is it time to put it to bed? Signed, a gal left to plead when she gets left on read. Right, left on read. You mean left on red?

Uh, okay. I stand correct. A gal left to pled when she gets left on red. Now your name doesn't work. That's what I meant to say, obviously. Warn, won't. Well, it's, it's time to put this relationship to bead, Gabriel. I mean, bed. This is my chaise lounge.

If you're wondering what we're talking about, I thought it was Shez Lounge. Apparently it's Shez Long. I still think it makes more sense because you lounge on it, but that's just my dumb rationale. Honestly, I think this is more embarrassing because this is so obvious. And a lot of people do say Shays Lounge. when you go to furniture stores. So I think yours is more forgivable, and I don't know what to say.

I'm just staying corrected. Yeah. All right. Well, let us talk about the girl left to pled when she gets left on red. Right, exactly. Yeah. The reality is, look, for whatever reason, this guy, he just isn't able or willing to be a consistent, present,

basically respectful partner to you, which it sounds like that's what you want. If you were okay with being in super casual hookup mode or whatever, then it wouldn't really matter, although it still probably wouldn't feel very good, but you obviously feel more strongly about this guy and not having that reciprocated, it's a crappy position to be in. But by continuing to put up with it, you are now putting yourself in that position. So you're right, it's not really a lot to ask somebody to check their phone and respond to you in a timely manner.

I mean, 24 hours, no big deal. I, by the way, Gabriel, do not buy for one friggin second that this guy doesn't check his phone for hours and or days at a time. Same. That is not a thing. He's running his own business. He's working hard to grow it. Of course he's checking his phone.

He's probably checking it all the time. So if he's not hitting you back, it's because ultimately he just doesn't feel the same way about you that you do about him. Or he does feel strongly about you, but he's just not willing to honor those feelings by treating you fairly, which I think that might even be worse.

So look, you gave it a shot. You guys have already talked about this. seems like a few times, and nothing has changed. You even ended the relationship only to open the door again, and he says all the right things, but then he's just not doing any better. There's that old saying, when somebody shows you who they are, believe them, right? And the same thing could be said about feelings.

When someone shows you how they feel, trust them. Actions speak louder than words here. I don't say this to be cruel, by the way. I know I'm being a little callous. I say that to give you the honesty that you deserve, that this guy certainly isn't giving you, and to save you a ton of time chasing somebody who's just obviously not on the same page for whatever reason and that reason probably doesn't even matter. Agreed completely. I find it interesting that this guy has ended relationships in the past for the

same reason. That tells me that he either hasn't met somebody he really cares about yet, you know, somebody who makes him want to answer within 15 minutes or whatever, or he really is stunted in this department and his inability to stay connected to women is costing him relationships. Yeah, I'm kind of going for the second one simply because maybe you haven't met somebody you care about, but then when somebody ends something, you don't go, oh, I'm going to keep this one going. Unless you just enjoy being entertained by people chasing you because you've got a little bit of an insecurity complex, which also kind of leans towards the second issue about being unable to stay connected to women. Yes.

You've found both of your dysfunctions in their fitting together like jigsaw puzzles, and that's always kind of the problem in dysfunctional relationships. Right? You find somebody who's got kind of the complementary dysfunction to whatever your dysfunction is and you end up matching together in this way that doesn't work for either of you, but kind of does. Anyway, to be fair, maybe he really is married to his company

and there just isn't room in his life for a partner right now. I'm going to be open to that. I'm going to throw a little 5, 10% in there. Maybe he's being really disciplined. Maybe he's focused. He knows that if he texted her, she's going to catch more feelings, he's going to get distracted.

I've been there before, so I kind of get it. And maybe that's a legitimate choice, although, yeah, would it be nice if he just said that? Sure. The thing is, it almost sounds like he lacks the self-awareness to even know that he's in that position or in that mode in life. Although, do I believe that? Because he said, oh, I've had to end things with women for this exact reason. So he kind of has the awareness, but then he doesn't have the awareness in real time.

I don't know. But he's on dating apps. Why are you on dating apps in the first place? or he's there to hook up and he doesn't want to admit that he's there just to hook up and he wants to lie to himself and frankly other people and say that he's looking for love when he just wants T&A, which is also possible. Yeah. Well, to your point, he is saying that implicitly, right? He's showing her. Yeah, and she's just not reading the room. Whatever his reasons, this guy, look, he's not the guy for you long term. So, yeah, I'm with Jordan. I do think it's time to say goodbye. Although you do have one other option here, which is to radically change your expectations of this guy.

and let go of the need for him to be in touch with you consistently and just let go of any idea about where this relationship is going, adjust your feelings accordingly. Look, that is a reasonable choice, but that's very difficult to do. Well, especially for somebody with her trauma, the abandonment issues, right? As she said, she gets easily triggered. So if she sticks around, even if she adjusts her expectations, then you have to wonder, is she putting herself in a position to be hurt again and again?

Is she compromising herself? It certainly sounds like it to me. She might be. It's a good point. And I know this is kind of cheesy psychology 101, but I do think it's interesting that this woman who knows that she has these abandonment issues is continuing to pursue an unavailable guy, a guy who keeps abandoning her. I mean, it is pretty textbook. Right. Yeah, this is almost like a vignette from a psychology course. We don't know this guy, obviously, but it sounds like he might be stuck in a parallel pattern. Like I said, not being available to the women he dates, and those two patterns are hooking into each other perfectly. Yep.

Which means this could just last for years as a game of chicken, so to speak, until somebody finally breaks and sets a boundary and then actually enforces that boundary. Yes, I would be curious to know if he gets involved with a lot of women like this, you know, women who keep coming back and pushing for more when he just pulls away. Well, I wouldn't be surprised. That's the dance, right? Maybe he goes, ooh, I have all these women chasing me. Well, I kind of feel bad about it.

But it also kind of feels good. and the women are like, why doesn't he like me? I need to chase him harder. And he's like, whoa, I need to pull back even more. And it's just such a common dynamic. For sure, we could dissect this to death, but I'm with Jordan. Yeah, I think it's time to end it. But look, as you make that decision, I would definitely keep bringing all of this into therapy because it's a really, really great opportunity to understand this pattern of yours better. And also to appreciate why you're drawn to guys like this in the first place and what makes you stick around and keep asking for more when you're not being treated the way you're,

you want. That's what I would be interested in figuring out. Not so much how to make this one relationship work, but what this relationship is bringing up for you and whether it fits with other relationships you've had in the past. That's exactly right. So get clear with yourself. Decide if this is really the relationship you want. And then, yeah, get back on Tinder so you can swipe right on a guy who actually responds to your texts and cares about how your day went. They are out there. But you can't find one if you stay fixated and hooked on the right. wrong guy. So good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use the descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If there is something you are going

through, any big decision that you are wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work, what to do if you were sexually assaulted by a guy who gave you a ride home and you haven't told your wife about it? That question last week, Gabe, was so intense, especially because I've been watching Dahmer on Netflix. That's a whole thing. for another day. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's right. I can't stop thinking about that one. It's right up there with, yeah. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous. All right. What's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, recently my father was tragically killed in an ATV accident.

Sadly, we had been estranged for many years due to his alcoholism. As the oldest sibling, I've been left to deal with selling off any assets he left behind, including the ATV. that killed him. We learned that a local mechanic shop had their tow truck driver pick it up after my dad's accident. Once it was released after an investigation, my husband and I went to the shop to check its status. Upon our arrival, the shop owner graciously waived the $300 fee he charged for picking up the vehicle. Then the driver who picked it up offered to buy the ATV for $800 and asked if he could pay $200 down and pay the rest the week after. He actually wrote out an agreement stating that and signed it. I also signed the agreement.

Fast forward five weeks later, and I still haven't gotten the remaining balance. I know where the driver lives, and I pass by his home on my way to and from work. He lives in a broken down trailer, but has very nice vehicles in the yard, including my dad's ATV. I mean, come on. Broken down trailer, but a bunch of vehicles in the front yard, I couldn't help it. Yeah, I know. Paints a picture. Continue. He claims he doesn't have the money every week that I contact him.

I'm all about giving people a chance, but this is really bothering me. My dad left debt behind, and I'm responsible for some of it. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. Do I have a legal leg to stand on here? Can I repossess the vehicle with just a handwritten agreement? Should I continue to wait for payment? Or should I report the ATV stolen to law enforcement? Signed, well, God damn, if I'm not being scammed by a helping hand.

A lot of vehicle-related drama today, Gabe. Was that intentional? By the way, as you're about to find out, this episode is actually brought to you by progressive auto insurance, but that's not why we're here. Have you recently taken possession of your dad's ATV? You might need a car insurance. You might need insurance. Well, all jokes aside, of course, I'm really sorry that you lost your father and in such a

tragic way. That's already difficult enough. But then it gets screwed over afterwards, and when your dad left you with debt to pay off, that really just sucks. this tow truck driver, he sounds like a shady character. Something's up here. And yeah, I don't like it. As per usual, to get a good handle on your legal options here,

we reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbyn Payne. And Corbyn said, first of all, I don't know why that's funny, it just is. And Corbyn said, first of all, that technically the ATV is not stolen property. Ethically, yeah, you're a victim here. The truck driver is stealing from you. nevertheless, you've effectively passed legal title through this transaction. Corbyn said that you can file a court action to reclaim the title to the ATV on the grounds that the buyer has broken the contract between you to, but you just, you don't have the title

of the vehicle right now. So, if you want this ATV back, you're going to have to take certain steps to reclaim title. Corby's advice, start by asking a lawyer to write a formal demand letter. That alone might scare this guy into doing the right thing here. My guess is if you serve him with one of those letters, he may panic, he may fold real quick and just pay up to avoid a bigger headache down the line. The problem is either somebody who operates like this, they've been down this road before

and they're worried about the potential consequences or they've been down this road before and they are totally not worried about the potential consequences because they've got 18 demand letters and they are ignoring all of them and they just sort of try to call people's bluff here. Now, if this did proceed to court, Corbyn said this would probably be. be a pretty straightforward lawsuit. It's breach of contract, period. He agreed to pay you X. He didn't pay you X. It's all in writing, probably messy handwriting on the back of a friggin Arby's napkin in the backseat of his tow truck or whatever, but it's still in writing. In Corbin's view, the only real questions here are, is there a contract and has there been

what's called performance? In other words, have the parties done what they said they would do in the contract? It sounds like the answer to both of these questions are pretty clear. And they're in your favor. So the court can order payment or could even order the guy to give the ATV back, either until he pays or, you know, the money goes back and he gets the ATV back. Of course, then you got your fees. Now, Corbyn couldn't say for sure that this whole thing is going to be cheap,

but he did feel comfortable saying that the cost for this should probably be a lot less than the value of the ATV. So we're talking a few hundred bucks. But if you don't want to go that route, Corbin said you could try to get your local police or sheriff to pick up the ATV. I mean, after all, it's sitting in the frigging front yard. However, in Corbyn's view, the sheriff or police would actually be in the wrong if they did that. And you might get in trouble with a judge for even trying to do that. Because in this case, you'd be banking on the court to nod, wink at your actions here. And if this guy has legal

problems or lacks the money to contest any of this, yeah, that could work. But in Corbyn's view, the risks of that option outweigh the upside. And also, unless you are related to the sheriff or something like that, or you grew up with the guy. I'm going to guess that a tow truck driver who deals with the cops all the time, he might know them better than you know them. Good point. And maybe that won't shake out in your favor. But I do hope that gives you a couple options here. You know, hey, if he does know the sheriff and you say, hey, this guy ripped me off, they might go, hey, Billy, did you not pay for the ATV? Pay for the ATV. Damn it. Okay, hang on. You know, you never know what'll shake out here. Maybe he'll be embarrassed, although

doesn't sound like the kind of guy who responds to that. I know the money isn't huge, but also given what he has in his front yard, he can cover it. Sell the Mustang that's on cinder blocks, buddy, you got options. I also imagine it's the principle of the matter. The guy just conned you out of $600 at a very vulnerable moment in your life. Not okay. I want this guy held accountable. It's not even my property and I want him to pay. So I hope you settle this. I hope you get your money or your vehicle back. But if he digs his heels in, yeah, it sounds like you have a pretty solid case. So good luck with it. And speaking of shameless capitalism, time for a word from our sponsors. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the discounts and the deals you hear on the show, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Everything is searchable, everything should pop right up. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support this show.

It really does keep us going. It makes us possible for us to create these. episodes week after week, and we love you for it. All right. Back to Feedback Friday. Okay. So, this is our last Feedback Friday of 2022. And as we wrap up the show for the year, Gabe and I have been talking about some of the big takeaways that came out of all of the incredible letters y'all have sent us this year. After something around 250 questions, a few, wow, has it been that many? A few things come up again and again. So I wanted to talk about a few of these, hopefully give you something to take into the new year, or at least something you

can use to survive your crazy family dinners over the holidays. The first one for me at the highest, highest level is that the major problems and decisions we face in life, they just, they don't have an easy answer. They're complicated. They're messy. They're confusing. And I think oftentimes, that's actually the hardest part about life, not being able to look at a situation, whether it's a difficult parent or a struggling partner or a job you kind of hate, but you also kind of need, whatever it is, it's hard to face those problems and not be able to say, right, okay, this is the answer. This is what I got to do. It's going to be simple. I just have to pull the trigger and be done with it, and then it'll be over. Life just doesn't work that way. There are always multiple

angles on a situation. There are always different ways of understanding it. There's different ways of responding to it, and the same event can be experienced very differently by different people. Yeah, so true. Plus, there's always, you know, an opportunity cost to making a decision, usually more than one opportunity cost. And you always have to give something up, or you have to pay a price, or you invite new consequences that you might not even be able to anticipate. There's just no way around that. That rule is baked in. And yeah, I do think that makes things even more complicated. Yeah, that's right. But it's interesting, Gabe. I think people often write in hoping for the one clear answer, or their question is confined to this very specific aspect

of a much more complicated issue. Yes. And then we'll go, well, wait, wait, hold on a second. You're asking whether you should feel guilty about not wanting to bring a casserole to your abusive mother's Thanksgiving dinner. But let's talk about what it's been like for you to have that mother your whole life. Let's talk about where that guilt comes from. Let's talk about how you're dealing with her these days or whatever it is, because that's

always the real issue. You've got to abstract a little bit, right? Go up another layer here. And so I guess what I'm saying is getting comfortable with that ambiguity, accepting that life is a lot messier than we would like it to be, I think that sometimes, I just think that's even more important than solving the problem that seems to be at hand. In fact, I think our inability to tolerate that reality, sometimes that is the problem. And everything else is secondary, right?

Forget the casserole. Yeah, well put. And I would go a step further and say a lot of the situations we, hear about, especially the ones that have to do with family or psychology or just very old issues, in a way, they're ultimately unfixable. And by that, I mean, you're not going to fundamentally change your 80-year-old abusive mother. It's just impossible. You're not going to make the corporate world more compassionate, right?

This is the system we work in. You're not going to snap your fingers and make the whole dating process less awful, as we saw from question two. And so a lot of what I've thought about this year is how to process and respond to the to these situations when you can't change them. And sometimes that's really the only answer to a problem and your only move, your only reasonable move, is to process the thoughts and the feelings and the questions that come up and decide what your relationship with the situation is going to be. Oftentimes that means drawing stronger boundaries. Like, again, question one from today, right?

Those parents, they can't change their son at this point in his life. He's on his own path, he's doing his own thing. But they can decide how they relate to him. They can decide how to take care of each other. They can find a way to work through the feelings that a child like this brings up. Or maybe in a different situation, it might mean changing your lens on a situation. Like, yeah, this colleague of mine is a total nightmare, but I'm going to choose to learn something from him. Or I'm going to build better relationships with my other colleagues so we can survive this guy. Or, you know, when I get home, I'm going to write an email to my best friend about all the ridiculous stuff he said today so I can at least laugh about it. Or, hey, maybe it means leaving the situation entirely,

right? Ending a relationship or finding a new job or moving to a new city or whatever it is. That has been one of the biggest takeaways for me this year, just coming to terms with how fixed a lot of life is and remembering that it usually always comes back to how you show up, how you make sense of things. And maybe that sounds kind of depressing or kind of disempowering, but I actually think it's very empowering because then you can spend your time in your energy working on the aspect of a situation that you do control. You stop trying to make your mom somebody she's not, or you stop obsessing over every single outcome that a career move is going to serve up. And you start changing how you interpret your life and how you respond to your life.

And suddenly things often start to get better. I think it's extraordinary. Right, because you're not arguing with reality anymore. You're not holding out hope for an outcome that isn't possible. You're acknowledging that a problem might always exist or it'll exist for a lot of. long time. And so the only rational option is to shift your relationship with it. So the situation is fixable. It just wasn't fixable in the way that you first thought or hoped. Exactly. The solution isn't changing somebody or changing something else that change is happening on your side of things, at least at first anyway. That just came up over and over again in the letters. I'm actually really glad that you brought that up because another big theme for me this year,

well, every year, but especially this year, is just how important it is to find the support you need so you can do that kind of work on your own. And that usually means getting into some form of psychotherapy. So look, Gabe and I mentioned therapy a lot. It probably comes up at least once or twice per feedback Friday. Today, I think it did come up twice. And it's interesting. A lot of you guys will write to me and you'll say, thank you for talking about therapy so much. You finally made me feel okay about going. I'm learning all this stuff about myself. I can't believe I waited this long to start. Thank you so much. And then other people will write in and they'll go, ah, your answer to people's problems is always just go to therapy. We get it. Can you please stop banging on about it already?

But the reason we bring this up so often is, I mean, look, you guys are bringing these incredibly intense and complicated questions to us. Oftentimes these problems go all the way back to childhood or your parents' childhood or they connect to issues that are very personal. And they take a lot of time to fully unpack. And yeah, we try to get to the heart of things as much as we can, but there's obviously only so much we can do in eight or ten minutes on a podcast. while you're not even sitting in front of me. I mean, we're good, we're not that good. You know what I mean?

So to Gabe's point, this is a process and real growth, real understanding. That's going to take time. And it usually requires the help of a professional who can be in that process with you. This stuff might even take months or years to get to the root of it with a good therapist. That's a very special relationship. Gabe and I have both gone to therapy. We've both gotten a lot out of it. So, yeah, that's why we bang on about it so much.

So to the people who get mad when we talk about getting on the couch, sorry guys, you're going to keep hearing that. And also, there's a part of me that says, what sort of level of self-awareness are you lacking where you think the only thing we say is go to therapy and move on? Is there no other useful advice? If that's lost on you, then maybe Feedback Friday really isn't for you. But the reason we recommend this is because we want you guys

to have the support you need to take what you hear on the show into your life and then keep exploring it on your own. And if you want to get started with therapy, I always recommend BetterHelp. Betterhelp.com slash Jordan. Yes, they sponsor the show. They've been great. A lot of you write in about how helpful this is. Tons of our listeners have found a therapist there with great results. Betterhelp.com slash Jordan. They didn't pay for this spot. This one's a freebie for them. You're welcome. And if you need help finding a therapist, email us. We've got a ton of resources for low-cost therapy, sliding scale therapy, tips on how to find the best therapist for you, all that jazz. Absolutely. And also, Jordan, speaking of therapy, I think another big theme for me this year was remembering that ultimately you can't change other people. And you also can't live other people's lives for them. Yeah, that's a big one for me too.

A lot of people we hear from are struggling because, you know, their sibling won't go to rehab or their partner won't start exercising or they're at their wits end because their friend won't snap out of their depression and be grateful for what they have, whatever it is. I think a lot of the times we have this fantasy that we could do the work for other people or that we could somehow accelerate their process, you know? Like we could somehow transfer our insight or our experience to them so that they could just get better. And I know this seems so obvious, but it's important to remember that you can't do that, right? You can only live your own life and other people can only live their life. And it's easy to forget. You can help people. You can encourage them. You can guide them. But even if you could make your sister go to AA, even if you could make your boyfriend start exercising, she still has to be the one to go to those meetings. He still has to be the one doing the pushups. They have to have that experience. That's the only way it works.

Right, and that rarely happens on the timeline that we would like it to happen on. We hear that a lot too. Yes, totally. Sometimes the hardest thing to do, honestly, is be patient. Which, that's another thing we come back to a lot, pushing the people in our lives to change, pushing ourselves to change, but still being patient, still being compassionate, still being supportive, because you need both to get anywhere in life. Yeah, that's not always easy.

No, it's really not. And actually, that brings me to my last takeaway from this year, which is no matter what, we do, no matter how sensitive or compassionate we are, someone somewhere will find a reason to get offended by what we say. Yeah, they sure will. This is sort of a pet peeve of mine, although I mostly find it interesting these days, just how people will find a reason to be angry or injured or, and it's often on somebody else's behalf.

Like, we'll take a question from somebody, and we'll work pretty hard to find a balance between empathizing with them and being gentle with them and also pushing them to be courageous or to take responsibility for their outcomes. And we'll get letters, not a ton of them, but, you know, a few very vocal ones. And they'll be like, how could you say that? You're victim blaming. And it's like, wait a minute.

We just spent 20 freaking minutes telling this person it was not their fault that they were assaulted or whatever. But now they have to find the resources they need to heal and make meaning out of their trauma. And here's how to do that. And suddenly, all over again, we're monsters. And meanwhile, the person who wrote in almost always sends us an email going, Thank you for being so honest.

You know, some of what you said was a little hard to hear, but I really needed to hear that, and I know what I need to do now. So thank you. Right, but that won't stop some Sox and Sandals keyboard warrior in their bedroom who's bringing their own baggage to a story from projecting all of their crap on somebody else's story and then leaving us a one-star review or sending us a nasty email. And look, I have some compassion for people like that because some of the topics we take on the show are very triggering.

But also, it's like, did you just change? cherry pick the one sentence from our entire response that serves your weird narrative. Yeah, you kind of did. You might want to ask yourself why our response riled you up so much before you write us a five-page letter about how we're sociopaths. Yeah, also the ad pivots. Ah, the ad pivots, yes, the ad pivots. So you guys know how we do those cheeky ad pivots from a question into the sponsors. In like 99.99% of you guys like them and know we're just trying to keep things light. But every so often, someone slides into my DMs like, I really don't appreciate how you're making fun of people's trauma to sell ads. And Gabe and I always turn to each other like, okay, are we being dicks right now?

Are we going too far? And then we're like, hey, didn't we spend 15 minutes taking this person's story very seriously and bouncing it off a lawyer and a therapist and whatever? Isn't it obvious that we're doing this with a wink and a nod to change the mode and the mood in the show? So, look, it's never my intention to hurt people's feelings who write in. And again, I've never actually heard from a person who wrote in saying they were hurt by one of our ad pivots. It's always some other person who's usually never even written in before at all.

But the reason I bring this up is it's actually really interesting to me that some people are able to go through tough stuff and still have a laugh. Or at least tolerate us having a little bit of laugh. And some people just can't do that. And I'm not saying that you have to laugh about your pain. I'm not saying trauma's funny. Processing difficult stuff. well, it's a process. But one of the big themes that really jumped out at me this year is that the people who have a sense of humor, even a little bit, they seem to roll with the punches a lot better.

And they seem to have a little more fun along the way. Yeah, well said, Jordan. I actually do think that humor is a huge part of resilience. In fact, I actually, I wonder if evolutionarily that might be part of why human beings developed a sense of humor. To deal with pain, right? Or to lighten up a situation or take tension out. Totally. And yeah, to cope with shame. We talked about that a few times this year, too. It's very powerful laughter.

I just know that somebody who's getting so offended because we have a laugh about one element of a question, they just must be so freaking fragile. They can't view a situation in any other way than this is serious. It's fatal. It's personal. There's no room for any other feelings other than sheer pain. Totally. And being that fragile and that, what's the word, like brittle?

I think that makes it hard to have the elasticity to absorb some of that pain or to feel the pain and say, yes, this is really heavy, this is serious, but also to have some perspective on it and to maybe have more than one relationship to an experience. Exactly. And I know that's easier said than none. Some situations are obviously harder than others, and you have to go through a phase of taking something seriously before you can laugh about it. I understand that. Sure. But over time, being able to tap into a little humor, it makes a huge difference. I see it all the time. I've experienced the same thing myself. Anyway, all that to say, we will always listen when you guys get angry at us. You know that. And I'll always check in with myself and see if I'm going too far. But hey, at the same time, I think we could all use a little more humor in our lives, especially these days. And just because Gabe and I try to keep things light here and

there, it doesn't mean we're trying to be cruel. We just know that laughter really is a part of the medicine. Plus, I really need you guys to stick around for the ad reads because that's how we're able to keep offending you week after week. Well, listen, before we wrap up here, I just like to say one last thing, which is getting to talk to you guys every week, doing this show with my best friend, it means the world to me. It really does. And I'm just very grateful to work with you, Jordan, and I'm so grateful to be part of all your lives in this way. You guys share this incredibly personal, interesting, often, yeah, really difficult stuff with us. And I have to say, I am just constantly amazed by how willing you are to share your lives with us and how you guys

open yourselves up to new ideas. And yes, also, you let us have a laugh every now and again. And I'm very honored by that. And look, I know it probably seems like Jordan and I have all the answers every week, but the truth is, I'm growing along with you guys. I feel like I learn from you just as much. And honestly, I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. So thank you. That's all I want to say. Thank you for letting us into your world every week. Thank you for all your emails, your amazing reviews. thank you for being part of this with us. I hope Feedback Friday has helped you see things in a new way or made you feel a little less alone or just kept you from stabbing your colleague with a butter knife in the break room, whatever it is, wherever you listen. This is honestly the best part

of my week and I just can't wait to see what other crazy stuff you guys send us next year. So we can keep figuring this whole life thing out together. Absolutely, Gabe. Hey, I second all of that. And look, as you guys know, I really do live a lot of my life through this show. show, and when I'm interviewing interesting people or talking through your stories, I'm a student alongside you guys. And that's really why I started podcasting 15, 16 years ago, because I just wanted to learn and share what I learned with other people. That's really the whole spirit of the show. So without belaboring the point too much, I'd also like to thank you for being a part of this family, for lending us your ears and your minds and even your hearts, and for supporting our sponsors

so we can keep doing the show. And I say this all the time, but I really do feel that we have the greatest show fans in the world. Y'all are truly awesome. I feel lucky. Like, words can't really describe how lucky that this is my job. This is my career. And by the way, this show, it would not be possible without my phenomenal team. Bob, Jace, Ian, Josh, Millie.

You guys make the show run. You're the best team I could ask for. And obviously, Gabe, who let me roast him this year way more than I should have, probably. But the person, I really couldn't do this without, of course, is my wife, Jen. Jen isn't just my amazing producer behind the scenes. She's my partner, my best friend. She's the secret sauce that makes everything work around here.

My kids, Jaden and Juniper, they're way too young to listen to the show, but they're a huge part of the person that I am today. I don't think I could tackle a lot of the questions here on Feedback Friday if I were not a father. I'm kind of anxious about the day I actually have to discuss Feedback Friday like questions with them. Those are going to be some weird conversations. Maybe they'll listen to the show after I'm dead and I'll be off the hook. But it's a problem for another year. I'm happy to put that off as long as possible.

And finally, I want to thank our amazing sponsors and feedback Friday experts, Corbin Payne, Dr. Aaron Margolis, Michelle Tillis Letterman, Alyssa Cohn, and all the other brilliant people who've helped us out this year. We're super grateful for your generosity and your wisdom. And Gabe and I thank you for making us sound way smarter than we actually are. And on that note, happy holidays, you guys. Happy New Year. We'll have two new interviews for you next week.

and then we're going to be back in your feed on Tuesday, January 3rd, Skeptical Sunday will also be returning next year as well. So there's that to look forward to as well. Go back and check out Shaham Das and Chase Hughes if you haven't yet. If you want to know how I managed to book all the great guests for the show, it's always about networking and relationship development. I'm teaching you those skills for free on the think-iffic platform. It's our six-minute networking course.

Again, the course is free. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you're thirsty people. The holiday season's a great time to dive. into all this, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode is at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals, and discount codes, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And Gabe is on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. If you want some photographs of him sitting in a castle, you can go look at Instagram. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. team you already know about happy holidays to them as well. They're taking a well-deserved break over here. Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. Was never a good lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Dr. Romney's

input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful or any episode of this show useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next year. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with retired astronaut Chris Hadfield. I watched the first two people walk in the moon,

and I thought, wow, I'm going to grow up to be something. Why don't I grow up to be that? That's the coolest thing ever. It is purely the direct results of all of those little minute-by-minute decisions that I made since starting when I was a kid just turning 10. When I got the telephone call asking if I would like to be an astronaut, I was at the top of my profession. I was the top test pilot in the U.S. Navy as a Canadian. And then to be selected as an astronaut, suddenly I'm a guy who knows nothing. I sit in my office and I'm like, I'm a complete impulse. I have zero skills right now.

Whenever anybody has offered to teach me something for free, I've always taken them up on it. How are you getting ready for the major events in your life, the things that matter to you, the things that have consequences? Are you just sort of waving your hands and go, oh, it probably turned out okay? Or are you actually using the time available to get ready for it? Maybe it will turn out okay. But if the stakes are high, to me, that's just not a gamble I willingly take. If at some point in life you think you know everything you need to know, then you're just in process of diet. What astronauts do for a living is visualize failure, figuring out the next thing that's going to kill you,

and then practice it over and over and over again until we can beat that thing. We know how to deal with it. Then you do a much better job and a more calm and comfortable way of doing it as well. You don't miss it. You're not overwhelmed by it. It's something you can do while thinking of something else. You notice how beautiful it is, how magnificent it is, how much fun it is. you're not just completely overwhelmed by the demands of the moment.

For more on how Commander Chris Hadfield managed to stay focused on his dream, starting at age nine to become the first Canadian to walk in space. Check out episode 408 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger Show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical use. way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts

and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work,

itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.