The Jordan Harbinger Show - 771: Sarah Edmondson & Nippy Ames | Surviving NXIVM Part Two

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

Sarah Edmondson (@sarahjedmondson) and Anthony "Nippy" Ames (@nippyames) are two former NXIVM cult members turned whistleblowers. Together, they host the podcast A Little Bit Culty, and are featured in HBO's series The Vow. Sarah's 12-year ordeal is chronicled in Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult That Bound My Life. [This is part two of a two-part conversation. Find part one here!] What We Discuss with Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames: How NXIVM began as a community of like-minded individuals who were committed to personal growth and self-improvement and devolved into a cult under the leadership of its narcissistic founder, Keith Raniere. How Hollywood celebrities came to be courted and ultimately controlled by Raniere and the NXIVM cult. The endless abuses suffered by NXIVM's victims — from mind games to being branded as property and trafficked as a way to fund Raniere's lavish lifestyle. Where Sarah and Nippy existed within NXIVM's hierarchy, the parts they played, and what broke the spell that held them enthralled in the cult's sinister machinations. How Sarah and Nippy are coping with the aftermath of their traumatic experiences, and what they're doing to raise awareness of how cults like NXIVM ruin people's lives. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/771 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. But I got on that table and I said, Master, will you brand me? It would be an honor as I was instructed. And later we find out in the trial, Keith tells Allison that the women should ask to get it so it appears consensual. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with scientists, entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists, even the occasional war correspondent, drug trafficker, hostage negotiator, or astronaut, in each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better thinker. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our

episode starter packs. That's a great place to begin. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Topics like scams and conspiracy debunks, China, North Korea, Abner, normal psychology, crime and cults, and more. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, part two with Sarah Edmondson and Nippy from the Nexium cult, formerly of the Nexium

cult. Go back and check out part one if you haven't yet. Part two is, of course, a continuation of that interview. All right, here we go once again with Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames. A lot of people are going, okay, yeah, self-help cult. There's so much going on with sex with underage women and all these different things that people can see when they watch the vow and all the different individual abuses, we don't have to catalog all of those. But there's the branding, right, where women who joined this sort of sorority

that was inside the group, it was sort of this smaller, much smaller organization, the women were branded with what later turned out to be Keith's initials, but was supposed to be some symbol before. Talk to me about the branding, because this is, I think a lot of people are going, wait a minute, how do you sign up for an executive seminar and dot, dot, dot, dot, you've got someone's initials on your pelvis and I'll let people use their imagination for where that ended up. It's just a really big leap, I think, for a lot of people to wrap their head around. It is a big leap and it's why I'm so grateful that the vow did such a good job of showing what we thought we were building and leading people up to that spot. It's why I wrote a book actually so I wouldn't have to go to the details

too much for the rest of my life. But I'll give you the cliff notes and truthfully it's partly also just my own self-protection and when I go into the nitty-gritty-gritty. gritty and I actually put myself there. It can be still re-traumatizing. So I try to kind of stay surface with it and, you know, the tone of this pot is intelligent but also lighthearted. So and Nippy and I laugh all the time and I kind of have to. So that's my caveat is that many things happened for me to agree for that to happen. And ultimately, there were step by step things that I agreed to joining a secret women's group, having Lauren be my master, taking a vow of obedience, all, like I said, it felt like an exercise. And I agreed to a tattoo. And she told me it was going to be very small

and it would be this very symbolic thing that I did with my sisters. And I'd never been in a sorority. And there was an element that was definitely weird. I mean, my alarm, my internal alarm bells were going off from the moment she told me about all this. But I was told I was doing it right because it had to be that, it was a very serious commitment. And I was willing to make that commitment to her because I cared about her and I loved her and I trusted her. But the night of, it turned out to be a brand. And I don't even have a concept of branding other than like what's done to animals up until that night. Right. But that's what it is. It shows you own that person's flesh, right? Or that cow's flesh as it would be with cattle. Which by the way, was when I was telling

people about it later, when I was trying to tell people about it in the organization, they were like, what do you mean branding? Like, that's what some farmers do to cattle to say that they owned the cattle. And they said, well, that's only that if you make it mean that. I said, no, that's what it is. But anyway, the night of, there's a lot of factors that's hard to explain. And I think you actually did a pretty good job earlier, Jordan, in terms of the frog and the pot of water. It's by that point, I'd given collateral. I'd make it, made a vow of obedience. Talk about a peer pressure situation to the extreme.

I'm with my, not only my friends, but women who in that situation I'm one of the highest ranks of. And I have Lauren in my ear, I'm saying, I don't want this. This is not a tattoo. And it's not a dime size. it was two inches, it was like two inches by two inches. It was big. And without an aesthetic, I didn't go first. I watched two women go ahead of me. And it was horrific. And I had a, what's it called, like a gag? No, a mask, a mask. A mask. A doctor's mask. A doctor's mask. Because the smell of flesh. Oh, okay. And we also, we didn't want, like, anything to go into

the wound. Like, it was something out of a horror movie. And I quickly realized that, and Lauren even said to me, like, you need to show these women how it's done. And I was gaslighting myself in my, and I think that this is pretty clear in my book, where if people want to know what the internal process is, it's like, I'm going, get the fuck out of here. This is so fucked up. Like, people think we're a cult already. This is, this is a cult, you know. Then going in my other side of my ear, my brain, Keith's voice saying all the things we've been indoctrinated to believe about women, the worst parts of anyone, but specifically we believe it's women. Women always are looking for the back door. We're flaky. character, we have no follow-through. Fuck, I got a follow-through. And I have this collateral over my head. She's

got nude photos. She's got false confessions. I mean, never mind what I've given her. She knows everything about me. She's essentially my therapist. So everything was on the line, and I didn't feel like I had a choice. And that was the nature. Now we don't call the collateral collateral. I call it blackmail. Right. When this happens outside of a group, it's called blackmail. Or when it's used as a threat outside of anything like this, it's called blackmail. And of course, it is blackmail inside the group, too. We talked about this with Amanda Montel. The way that cults control language is they go, oh, somebody might say that's blackmail.

Let's rename this something else. Let's call it collateral to encourage you to follow through on your promises. Let's not call this something super, super, super creepy. Let's make a euphemism for it that we then elevate to be something really great. And religions do this too, right? I don't want to get eight billion emails, but religions do this too. So we're going to leave it there. We'll leave it at that. Yes. But I got on that table and I said, master, will you brand me? It would be an honor as I was instructed. And later we found out in the trial, Keith tells Allison that the women should ask to get it so it appears consensual. Right. And I think anyone with a brain could tell, you know, I'm married to Nippy. I would never consent to have another man's initials next to my crotch. I didn't find out about the initials till weeks later. That was kept for me. Like, even if I had agreed and I wanted that brand or whatever, the fact that

that was kept from me was like the biggest betrayal of them all that. And to answer your question from about an hour ago, that's when I figured out I was in a cult. It wasn't even the branding. It wasn't because the night of the branding, I was so bought in. I was so indoctrinated. You know, I was proud of myself when I was done. I even said to the other women who went after me like, it's awful. I'd push through it. Like I felt like we'd been taught that pain is love. That sounds super abusive, but okay. I know. That is fucking creepy. Holy crap. And then I had Lauren's face looking at me and we're all crying and like it's emotional. And I went through this thing. And I came home and like, I couldn't tell Nippy. And I'm like,

he doesn't fucking know what I went through. And I was so proud of myself. And I kept it from him. And I was like nursing this fucking wound on my. And it was like awful. It was awful. And also exciting. When I figured out that it was his initials and that's when Mark and I spoke. And he told me they heard about women being invited to join a secret society and that they were, there was sex involved. And women were being assigned to go seduce Keith. That's when I put it all together. Because I didn't know about the sex. He didn't know about the branding. And then we're like, holy fuck, he's a con man. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. How do you cover that out? Like, can you get a brand removed? I don't even know what you do. I've had it removed, actually. Yeah. How do they do that?

I spent years like putting oil on it and like exfoliating it and having treatments to get the keloid down because it was quite raised. And then eventually two years ago, I had it plastic surgery, which was paid for by an anonymous donor. I don't know who it is. Wow. contacted my lawyer and said, I want to pay for women to have the brands removed. And it was like a $3,000 surgery.

They basically cut, if you can. can imagine the square and you can imagine an oval being cut around it and then sewed back together. Sure. Okay. So it's like tummy tuck type thing, but like just for the scar. Yeah. So I just have like a three inch white, very thin line. You'd never notice smaller than a C-section scar. And it's way better than Keith's initials on my body. Was that a big deal when you had that procedure done? Did you feel like you turned a corner? Yes. It was a big deal. It was. Yeah. Because I had spoken to the surgeon. She's like, we can sand it down, but you'll probably always see K.R. in the mirror. And I don't think you want that. And I'm like, I absolutely do not want

that. And it was a very emotional, meaningful decision for me to, and also hard, I'd to lie on a table and have surgery in the same spot where I'd been so violated three years before. So it was, it was intense, but it was a big turning point for me and my healing. I have to imagine that was huge, because in the book, you talk about how the brand isn't just a physical wound, but a moral injury, which Nippy was talking about earlier, this permanent trauma to your conscience, as you put it. So getting the procedure, I know it seems sort of cosmetic, but I imagine that that also must have helped to some degree with the emotional slash ethical aspect of it. Yes. And yeah, and up until that point, I felt like I needed it because I had the physical proof of his emotional abuse that had been

incurring for decades to other women. And this was, I mean, I think one of his flaws, one of not making it a religion to protect himself like Scientology as we learned from Mike Rinder, but also that he branded his initials in women's bodies. Like, okay, do that to the women you're sleeping with. But you're going to do that to a married woman, married to Nippy? Like, what the fuck are you thinking? Like, when was that going to, how was that going to play out? Right. Mike Rinder, by the way, high-level Scientologist who sort of, I guess you'd call it,

defected, left the group and now exposes things that are, were slash are going on inside Scientology. Yeah. The whole thing is just absolutely insane. I mean, we're barely scratching the surface of the stuff that's in the vow, the abuses that happened in this cult, but we only have so much time. The delusional control that Keith wanted around the group and among the, the women in the group. He wanted thousands of these women. He talked about swinging the vote for

the president of the United States because of the numbers nexium would have. And it's like, when you see that, you're just like, get a grip, dude. You're a bunch of people in a kitchen somewhere filming a dude in knee pads in a sweatband talking during volleyball. If you're not- Playing Led Zeppelin. Playing Led Zeppelin to the young girls. You're not swinging shit. You're trying to seduce a 15-year-old girl right now. Like calm down, Keith. But the brand really is a physical manifestation of the pain that this guy caused willingly and put on a bunch of people. There are still some people from Nexium who are, I guess, true believers, and they think, oh, it's so sad. Keith's in prison. This is the whole thing as a setup. One of them in the

vows of the scowl, Nikki, who actually brought you, sorry, you actually brought into the cult. What is it like knowing that somebody that you recruited not only got hurt, but still has not shaken off the spell? Honestly, it's what keeps me going, talking about this. Like I will not stop till she wakes up. And unfortunately, the more that I say that, and more she digs in to believing that I'm wrong and she's right. And that's the hardest thing because she was a friend. She was at her wedding. And I feel sad isn't even the right word. It's just like so helpless. Like there's, I can't do anything because I'm the enemy, right? In her mind, I'm the abusive one. I'm the liar. I'm the one who ruined everything, not Keith. So I can't help

her, right? Like she'll never talk to me or trust me. I have to find other. ways to reach her and I haven't stopped and I do and I continue to and I hope that one day something I say or something that somebody says wakes her up in the same way that we were able to wake up and I believe that's possible other people say it probably will never happen given the fact that she was you know has seen the trial she's seen the vow every episode of season two I thought oh my god this is going to wake them up this is going to wake them up wait he let Pam sit in her own shit while Nancy made breakfast right yeah like of course that's not illegal, but that's, that's awful. Right. This is, this anecdote is about, there's a woman who's

really, really sick. She's being taken care of. She had cancer, I believe, right? Is that what it was? Yes. There's a scene in the vow where Keith's like, oh, she had an accident. Oh, and Nancy goes, oh, I'll go help and I'll change it. And he's like, no, no, no, make breakfast, sit down and talk with me. And then they find out that she actually hadn't just sort of like wet her diaper or whatever. I'm not trying to, I want to make this sound dignified. I'm doing a terrible job. but she had actually, yeah, she had been in her own feces while they sat and ate breakfast, and he just didn't give a shit. He just didn't care.

And it's so obvious, even in the footage, that he just doesn't, he just, it was like an inconvenience for him that somebody else wanted to take care of a cancer patient while he wanted to have a chat and eat an omelet. Right. It's crazy. I mean, it really summarizes the guy in one anecdote. Right. But when you see something like that, to your point, Sarah, it's like, how does somebody see that part of the story and not think, wait, at a minimum, I need to reevaluate what I think about this guy. What is the psychology of somebody who clings to an organization after so much evidence has come out? Is it the inability to like

tolerate the cognitive dissonance of hearing different, you know, competing evidence? Is it, are they embarrassed to have to stop and say, wow, I might have been wrong for a decade plus of my life? Like, what keeps people involved? There's a long answer and there's a short answer. I'd say in short, it's pride, I think, for the people that are remaining. The fact that they can't get in a conversation where they're not curating and they get their ideas challenged and they get agitated when their ideas are challenged and you're not obedient to their narrative speaks to, I think they're protecting their self-image and they will cling to anything that will allow them to keep their image of themselves intact, right? And they hide behind altruism as a means to do it. So now they're social justice

warriors, they're trying to fix the legal system because that's in line with the self-image that they want to flex and portray. So they're willing to actually destroy the principle that they're pretending to uphold is a means to keep their self-image intact, and then they pretend that they're not doing it, and then they pretend that they're not pretending when you call them out on it. So I think the most compassionate thing to do is leave them alone. I think any time you try to do something to help them, they will make it bad, villainize you,

and proof that what they're saying and their narrative is true, we're being abusive or whatever. And that's sometimes the hard thing. And I try not to talk about it, specific people, but I'll talk about the process that I see in hopes that people can understand what they're looking at. And I think that's a broad kind of generalization of what you're looking at with them. What does somebody like Keith Reneer really want? You know, watch the vow.

I keep asking myself, what is this guy doing? You know, I understand it's about power. It's about attention. It's about pleasure. He seems to be a pretty textbook narcissist and or sociopath with kind of a weird 12-year-old boy level obsession with sex. But I'm scratching my head. That's the best bio I've heard. a while. Mike Rinder called Nexium Keith Reneary's wet dream. So that sums it up. It's just like I'm

scratching my head about what the needs are ultimately about because it seems he spent so much time in energy gratifying these impulses that were ultimately just seemingly really superficial self-serving. Is there something that drives a guy like Keith deep down or are personalities like Keith's just black vortexes of need and approval seeking behavior and there's just no deeper principle. Both. We've learned from the experts that a lot of these people never get evaluated, even when they're in jail, so we don't really know. But from our not expert research, all of these guys like Koresh, David Koresh from Waco, Texas, and I think Dahmer as well, and Keith, they all have had these bad experiences with their parents. And I'm sure you've heard about like

attachment theory. Yes. Yeah. So basically poor attachment. In conjunction with, I would say, too. Yeah. So basically, like, talking about an inner deficiency that exists in the real world, he feels like a tiny little worthless piece of shit underneath it all and found a way to control through his sexual prowess or whatever. And we actually just interviewed his girlfriend at 18 who's Karen Entiriner in the vow. And she shared how he was a stud. It's hard to believe. It's hard to believe in when you watch the vow. But apparently in the 70s, in the late 70s, he was built and had, you know, the feathered, you know, hair. And he was smart. And he was. he was a stud and he like had lots of women going all the time. And I think that just covered up the fact that he felt like a worth us little pudgy nerd on the inside who never didn't get enough love from his mother. That's my dime store analysis. Yeah. It makes sense. He had a pathological need for whatever that was. And that's one of the reasons he probably was built back then or whatever had the hair. And then when that became impossible, he became Mr. Kneepad volleyball sweatband guy and like different stages. Different phase of life. Yeah. God help me that he doesn't get out of jail.

because I will be sued for libel times a million after that statement. But, yeah, sorry. Yeah, well, I mean, insulting somebody is not, doesn't incur liability. Also, I think defamation has to be with the intent. I can't remember the legal definition, but I don't think we can argue that that's exactly. It's just facts. What he was like, yeah, it's just facts. Yeah, the absolute defense to something slander or libel is, is proof that the thing you said is true.

And I think we can just cut to the footage and go, is that not sweatpan, sweatband, knee pads guy? And also, really, libel is when you say somebody's a pedophile, which I'm just saying it's in the video. Also been proven. Also proven. So Keith was given a 120-year prison sentence. He lost his appeal, what, like last week or something like that? So he's not getting out any time soon, maybe some parole here and there. But he's serving that now.

Allison Mack got three years. Nancy Salzman got three and a half years. Claire Bronfman got six years in nine months. Seeing the leaders of the cult get punished, the leaders of Naxon, does that help you heal in some way, or is the criminal part of this more of a sideshow and not having to do with your personal journey? It's case by case with each person, yeah. Yeah.

Overall, I mean, I think everyone's happy that Keith is behind bars. The world is safer. Sure. The other people, I don't know if the world is safer with them behind bars, but there's also legal precedence that you can't, you know, you have to follow when people commit crimes. I'm really happy that Nancy seems to have woken up. Lauren for sure woke up. Allison apparently woke up.

I don't really haven't had much contact from her. Claire is the only one who hasn't woken up and she got more time because of that because she refused to disavow him. And I think that that's really key in understanding the whole case. And ultimately, people always like, do you think that's enough or does she need more? I'm like, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. All I know. She scares me the most.

Claire Bronfman. Yeah. If you haven't turned the corner by now or by the time you get out, you don't turn the corner, she's going to come out and she's going to come out for revenge. I just know her and I know how she was pointed in a certain direction. And I don't think she knows any other way. I believe that. And I know that she's going to have probation for three years because this is something that's concerning to me and I've asked our lawyers about it. I don't know who she would go after and who she has the most vengeance for. I think it might be Mark Vesente. It might be some of the women, but I don't think she's going to not reengage that somehow. I think it's an itch that she can't scratch. I hope I'm wrong. But I just don't. There's no indication that she's eating her crow on this appropriately like everyone else has and dealt with the shrapnel that went off when Keith Reneery went off. Everyone else seems to have at least done that except. for people that are loyal and Claire Bronfen.

And she's the one with the resources and probably the motivation to do something. I don't know if you feel that way, Sarah, but I kind of feel that way. No, I do. Look, if Nippy and I disappear in eight years, please come looking for us. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guests, Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames. We'll be right back. When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want, like all the way.

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and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. The course is all about improving your relationship building skills and inspiring other people to want to develop a relationship with you. The course does all of that in a super easy, non-cringy, down-to-earth kind of way, no awkward strategies, no cheesy tactics, just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer. Six minutes a day, not even that, that's all it takes. And many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. course is all free at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Now, back to Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames. It's scary that somebody with, I don't know, $200 million or whatever she has or is slated

to inherit might also have it out for you and or other people that you know. Like, that's scary. If some guy who comes out of prison and has nothing is after you, it's like, okay, I don't want to live in the same city as them, fine. Or they're not violent. They're just going to be pissed off at me. But when somebody's like, I can harass you with lawyers. till the end of time. That sucks.

You know, that's scary. And maybe I'm naive, but I think it's a healthy fear to have and at least, you know, keep in my mind because this might not be over for us, sadly. Yeah. But it has that feel right now. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's season 7, 8, and 9 of the podcast.

Yeah. Plenty of material. Yeah. The reason Sarah and I do this is because we have some wisdom and we have some content that people can take and make more informed decisions with. And as long as that lanes open to us, I think we should take it.

Which is why we were so excited to come on this show, by the way, Jordan, because I know that's part of your log line is taking wisdom into people can think better. Yeah. Jordan, your podcast with Stephen Hassan was one of the first I listened to when I got out. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I listened to it again when we got approached about a podcast because I heard yours was good. It delivered, Jordan.

Yes. I appreciate that. I would love to talk about that for a moment. The recovery post-nexium, you guys have obviously been through a lot. I know Sarah in the book you talk about working with a team of therapists and a specialist in cults and a couples counselor. And you say in the book, and I assume Nippy for you as well doing the podcast, that two things have helped you heal the most, telling your story and doing the right thing in the face of

adversity. I think it might seem obvious, but I think for everybody, everybody who goes through a traumatic experience like this probably has a different response to the aftermath and how to work through it. What is it about telling your story here on your podcast, in the media, that has. helps heal these wounds. Is it being vulnerable about it? Is it helping other people? How does that process actually work? It's all those things. Sure. I would just say I think it's a little bit different for both of us. I know for me, because I was such a big recruiter and so such an advocate for him, I have to kind of like

clean up my mess on the other side as a part of it. And also I'm the same person as I was before. I bet on the wrong horse with Nexian, but I've always wanted to help people. And now I feel like actually can help people with the lesson that I learned. And, you know, if I had these red flags as knowledge in my tool belt, I would have protected myself. And there's so many people are vulnerable as, you know, you talked about with Amanda Montel and Stephen Hassan. These things are everywhere. Everyone's susceptible to it no matter what you think. And it's such a clear, purposeful thing that I feel. And that fixes for me this like mess of 12 years before. So it's just part of my healing journey. And that's very cathartic and getting to work with my husband on something that

we can do together that's positive and legitimately helping is the best for us. Yeah, the gist of that, and I think to add a little bit is, you know, we have this lane and it's important that we stay in it. But the principle-based reasons, at least for me, is like the abuses of power that went on a cult aren't proprietary to a cult. They go on in a lot of other places in our society. So if you can really articulate what they look like and sound like, in your domain where it happened to you, people can go, oh, well, I see that here at work or I see it at the local YMCA or something like that. So then they have a language and they have a means to identify abuses of power. That's great. I mean, and I also figured at a certain point because Sarah is more inclined to say yes to things and I was more inclined to say no, I recognize someone's going to grab my story and run with it. And I have to tell my story. I wasn't particularly interested in having our personal life become other people's entertainment. And if it was going to happen, it was going to happen with my influence and what I had to say and my wisdom. So that was a large part of why I decided to get involved and do it. And I also recognize, you know, Sarah has a demographic that she's going to reach and I have a demographic

that I'm going to reach. And while I think there's less men that were involved with this type of organization, it was only because I was targeted differently, not because I wasn't vulnerable to it. And I'm kind of the guy who's in the back row with his arms folded, a little bit cocky, this couldn't happen to me. Sure. I was that guy. I mean, you know, I was that guy. I was like, this couldn't happen to me. I was, you know, cocky, arrogant, and it did. And because I thought it couldn't happen to me, it created that blind spot for me. So in a lot of ways, I'm talking to that guy right now who's out there thinking that, you know, it can't happen to me. And hopefully, I'll inform him to, you know, make a better decision in life. What advice do you have, then,

to somebody who's involved in an organization, whether it's a self-help group or a religion or a spiritual community or even some online forum or something like that? What would you recommend they do to determine whether they're involved in an unethical organization or whether their involvement or dependency on a group is unhealthy. For me, ask questions. If you challenge and you get pushback, I would just think that's enough. Peace out. And also research. Like, we never researched NXEM. Obviously, yeah, obviously all that. Yeah, yeah. Like research it. And if there's any smoke, there's probably fire. And if they say, oh, that person was just a woman scorned, oh, she's crazy. You know, like any guru or leader will say that about any defectors, that they'll just dismiss

all of it as like lies or smear campaign. And talk to people outside the group, talk to the experts and research it. If there's a cult website and it says, this is a cult, and this is why, it probably is. And there's so many resources. In fact, I'll give you for your show notes. I have a resource page on my website and there's a link to Stephen and Amanda. There's tons of videos and quick things on YouTube that you can watch and determine. But if you're like being isolated, if you're being gaslit, if you're being encouraged to ignore your intuition, if you're feeling pressured, if you're being punished, punished publicly, all of those are very obvious red flags that I see now that I think people can look to. How do people stay maybe honest with themselves

and with other people about their involvement of their feelings or their commitment? Because I would imagine at some point you're lying to yourself or hiding how deep you are in an organization like this because you maybe know it's a little bit weird. Well, I think that goes back to the question you asked about the loyalists. I think part of them knows that it's bad. But at this point, it's like people trying to get their money's worth. You know, I think that's a key thing that keeps people in and they're just unwilling to admit, oh, I made a bad decision. They ignore, ignore, ignore. Same thing in a domestic abuse situation. They're like, I can't have missed that. I must be wrong. So I think that plays a big part too. So if somebody does ask these questions and then realizes, hey, I might be in

trouble. I might be part of something bad or something dangerous. What do they do? Who do they turn to? How do they get out safely? Is there anything they should not do? Yes. Do not go to the leadership and tell them they're thinking about leaving. Okay. Try and talk them down. Yeah. Do not do that. Find a reasonable reason to leave.

When I left, it was my grandfather was sick in Toronto, so I didn't attend that training. And that was true, actually, but you know, you can make something up. When I left, it was because my wife got branded. Yeah. Valid. Fair enough. But, you know, I had to have a story, a cover story for a bit.

But most people can get away from the group. Some people are, you know, if you're stuck in a compound, that's a different situation. But any way to get out of the group and talk. to any of the cult experts that I mentioned or, you know, law enforcement, getting therapy, but definitely don't tell the group that you're leaving and just find a, find an excuse that it would be acceptable within that group to leave. I have one other thing I'd love to ask you. Yes.

Even talking to you on this show and certainly in the documentary, you guys seem to have a really good sense of humor. And it comes through on the podcast as well. Even when things got really dark, you were able to laugh at yourself, at the whole situation, you know, at Keith or whatever, do you think that your sense of humor played a role in your ability to see through nexium to some degree? And more importantly, your ability to process what happened to you and survive. Because I feel like there's something about humor that is, you know, entails a certain flexibility and a certain distance from what's happening. And I also wonder maybe if it's part of

resilience. Do you guys think your sense of humor played a role in all this? Okay. So here's kind of like my little TED talk on humor. Cool. Let's hear it. You have to do it in one minute though. I can do it in one minute. Good humor has truth in it, right? There's no way around it. Like, because a good comedian can be meta about things in society and it's true and we're all laughing and nodding because it's true, that's what makes it funny. I was never going to subvert that, I think, when I was applying it to really any aspect of my own life. Like, you know, and I've got, I come from a family where my brother's names are Huey Doey and Louie and my little sister is Daisy. For real. And that's true. Oh, oh, God, that's true. Oh, wow, man.

Why? And it's a whole other like, so like I always will look at things through that lens at some point. Now, how much that allowed me to protect me? I don't know. I think there was a certain kind of like, I was always meta about the sashes. So which means I think in a lot of sense I'm in, but not like blind allegiance in. And I was somewhat shocked to see how there was a blind allegiance to what I believed 75% of. It's staggering to me to see the people that are still.

And even like before like the all the information came out, it was still kind of like, are people not a little meta on this? So I think if my definition of humor holds up, I think that might be one of the things that always I had that meta lens. And you can even see I do an imitation of Keith before we were out. I just was pretty good at imitations and ended up doing one at Nancy's party. And we had lost it for a while. And the vow wanted us to find it. And I didn't, I couldn't find it for season one. And I found it too late. And they didn't put it in. or whatever. But when we went back and watched it three years out, it was funny to make fun of them. But it was also, we were like, oh my God, the stuff I was saying was actually what he was doing. Oh, interesting. There was something I was sensitive to. I don't know why. Like, I'm not going to sit here and say, you know, whatever, but it's a long-witted answer saying, things you don't know are going on around here. But I was just imitating what he was doing. Oh, wow. Your subconscious picked up on his creepy shit probably. Yeah. Yes. Or it was safer. It was safe. her to explore in a bit than to do head on. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a comedian can say all kinds of stuff.

And he goes, just jokes, people. Come on. It's a comedy show. And it's like, no, you're just kind of being a little bit of racist, but okay. It's the adage. Yeah. You guys might appreciate this. People tell the truth when they're joking and lie when they're serious, you know? Right. And answer to your question also, Gabe, I don't think Nippy and I would be together if he wasn't funny. And I thank God, because having to go through this healing process without him, I don't, I mean, I don't know where I'd be. Like, it's, we've had hard times, but we also laugh daily. And you have to laugh. Our hard times are petty.

We were in a sex cult for 12 years. Yeah. And like we missed out on all that. I know, right? We found each other, though. You guys drew the short end of that stick. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I mean, I say I'm winning.

I'm married Nippy. I got two beautiful boys. But we have to laugh. Yeah, I say the fact that our problems are getting our kids to school in time as opposed to what they could have been is one thing I'm very grateful for right now. So I got to, how old are your kids? Three and eight. Is there any sort of like, hey, you're the, I'm watching a thing.

about your mom on HBO where she got her vagina branded. Oh, yeah. Anyway, there's cookies and milk in the corn. I mean, that's a little bit like, Troy knows. How are you going to handle that? Troy's eight. We just recently told him more and he's like, if I ever saw Keith, I go knee him in the nuts.

Yeah, that's good. I'll tell him more as he gets older, but he knows we were in a cult. He knows we got out. He knows Keith is bad and he's in jail. And, you know, he knows his parents did the right thing. And I think that's, you know, a good template for him. I hope it is, you know, it's all we can do. It's just, there's going to be some high school chatter about, about mom for sure.

There will. And maybe that will build some resilience. I don't know. Yeah, he's going to have a strong character. Well, he doesn't have to worry about seeing Keith because he's got a 120-year prison sentence and he just lost his appeal. And five years probation. Wait, is he going to be-

120 years and five years probation? Oh, plus five years probation. Got it, got it. Yeah, that's my favorite. When they drew out the sentence, I was like, oh, my God, they gave probation to. It was like, cherry on top. Yeah. Just in case you ever get out, you're also.

So in case you lived in 125 or 150, 60, whatever it is. Yeah. You know, it's fine. I mean, he's out cause. So it's like, you know, you did this to yourself, bro. I wonder how he's rationalizing that. Well, he knows all that stuff as BS anyways, right? Or thinks a lot of it is BS the way it's applied.

So I'm sure it doesn't apply to Vanguard over there in prison. I wonder if he's up to his tricks in prison because that's a good place to get people wound around your finger and manipulate other people. It's full of manipulators and sociopath. He's trying all sorts of shit and getting in trouble. And getting, like, nobody likes him. Really? What have you heard?

He's gotten punched and he's just, like, you know, trying to subvert the system. He just sued the prison, the Bureau of the Prisons or whatever it's called because they stopped letting him talk to the loyalists, which he should never have been able to in the first place because then he's still pulling the lovers from jail. But, yeah, I know he's still just doing his thing. Wow. Keith being Keith. Yeah, I saw he's like flashing the flashlight out the window and the women are dancing outside.

And I'm just thinking, this is such a bad idea. What are you doing? He's humiliating them. And that's the other reason. I forgot to mention, Gabe, you asked earlier, why don't people leave or, like, what's the psychology? If they really were to admit what happened to them, it's incredibly embarrassing, incredibly embarrassing. And the humiliation and the shame keeps it all shrouded.

Like, Nippy and I were so embarrassed when we figured out that we were wrong. We ate that shit sandwich, and it was awful. And it still is awful. But for them, it's like eight sandwiches because they've sat through a whole trial now and so much more evidence. Oh, doubling, tripling down doesn't help. it either. Yeah. Now they're public about it. So now they have to go, wow, is really wrong. The cost of coming out and changing your mind gets higher and higher the more you invest, which is terrifying

to think about. And that's like the organization wants you to double down and be loyal, but they're also ensuring that your self-image is going to be so much stronger and the cost of coming out so much higher that you probably won't leave the longer it goes on. It's wild. This is what they say about doomsday cults, right? Gabe, it's you're in the doomsday cult and the world's going to end tomorrow. And then when it doesn't, you think, okay, everybody's going to leave, and the leader's going to be like, oh, oops, and no one's going to listen to you. But what happens is people, some people leave, but most people double down and go, no, we just didn't believe hard enough. That's why the aliens didn't come and pick us up. Or like, oh, we had metal in our clothing. And so they find some

rationalization for why it didn't happen. And then they do it again the next time the comet flies by Earth or whatever that's supposedly hiding the spaceship. And you just think, how did that not break you right away when you sold all your possessions? Because you sold all your possessions, you invested so hard. You now, the price, the cost of being wrong is too high. So you double down on the nonsense. And that's what's happening here. The manipulators know that. They understand that psychology of human beings extremely well. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. I know this is- Thank you, Jordan. Thank you, Gabe. We were so looking forward to this. And after knowing you're such a cult aficionado that we could

have this conversation with you, such a treat. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I appreciate the openness as well. I know it's not easy to talk about this stuff, although you've really leaned into it. I mean, a lot of people watching The Vow on HBO, a lot of people listening to your podcast. So it really is important to shine a light on this stuff because somebody somewhere is in a group and going, I don't know, it's a little weird. And then they're going to hear this and go, wait a minute, this is what is happening to my friend or to me or to my mom. And we get those kinds of notes all the time. I didn't, I wasn't sure if I was in a cult and then I realized after listening to your Stephen Housson episode or your Amanda Montel episode or an episode like this, that this group, group I'm in is using, maybe it's not a cult, but they're using these influence techniques in a way

that is coercive and I need to leave. That's such a key point. And we say that all the time in our pod. We don't even have to call it a cult. It might not even be a cult. But if they're doing X, Y, and Z and you don't feel good about it, then go join something else or go to leave it. You don't have to stay. Or that person shouldn't be in the position of authority that they're in, at worst case scenario. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for letting us tell our story. We appreciate you. I also really appreciate you reading the book, too. That means a lot. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guests, Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, please do what other smart and considerate listeners do,

which is take a moment and support our sponsors. Look, all of these folks support the show, they support us. We'd love it if you'd support them. I know there's a lot of supporting going on. And you can start your support by going to Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. That's where you can find any sponsor of the show. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. That's Jordan Harbinger.com right there on the home page. Thanks again for making the show possible and supporting those who support us. Now for the rest of my conversation with Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames. Gabe, what a story. I know it's hard to do these kinds of episodes where there's so much stuff, like two seasons of a show and a book, and the cult went for a decade and a half. It's like,

okay, what can we do in 90 minutes? It's really hard to encompass everything. So much to talk about. I know. It's wild, yeah. It's crazy because a lot of colors. do start with, oh, this is a great program for executive success where I can learn about some of the things that are holding me back, a la Dale Carnegie at the Learning Annex. And then it's like dot, dot, dot, eight years, 10 years later, I have cauterized my vagina and I'm the guys on the run in Mexico and people are being torn away from their parents. It's just the boiling frog really is. It's quite a rolling boil. The right metaphor. Yeah. Absolutely. And kudos to Sarah and Nibvi for being able to talk about it the way they did. I feel like they were very open and vulnerable

us and I know for Sarah, especially with the with the branding, is probably an incredibly sensitive topic. It's just so hard to relive. But I admire both of them for being so open about what they went through. And I know that that informs their mission, you know, like telling their story, saving people who are in similar organizations, like, it's remarkable the work that they're doing. It really is. Yeah. There's so many different bits of abuse in the vow season one and season two. But can we talk about the little gal from Mexico who gets locked in a room? I mean, Please, I need to talk about that. I mean, look, this was one of the most, probably the most disturbing stories for sure in the Vow season two. So if you guys haven't seen it, there's this family from Mexico

that got drawn into Nexium. And basically, Keith ends up grooming and sleeping with all three of their very young daughters. Yeah, underage. Underage. I can't remember if, I think one of them might have been 18, but then the other one was like 15. I'm not remembering the ages perfectly, but it was definitely illegal and very unethical. And gross. Yeah. And super gross. And super gross. And one of them, her name is Daniela, she's involved with Keith. And then she kisses another guy and she tells him and Keith gets super jealous and possessive again, like a 12-year-old. Right, like a man child. He convinces her to go into isolation in a room in her family's house for two years to, quote unquote, repair the ethical breach that she engaged in.

And in the dock, it explains that she basically went insane in that room. She had like a total breakdown, of course. she almost killed herself until she gets to this point where she's like, I either have to kill myself or like, and then she snaps out of it and she's like, no, what am I talking about? This sucks. F, Keith, F, nexium, F, this whole situation. And she summons the courage to leave. But what's so crazy about that story, Jordan, is plot twist. She wasn't actually being physically imprisoned, which is what I thought when I was watching it the whole time. I thought they locked her in this room. The door was unlocked, apparently, the whole time. She could have left at any time, but she was too afraid.

and she was too enmeshed in this organization to leave sooner. And so what I keep wondering is like, what keeps somebody like that locked in a metaphorical room? You know what I mean? And what narrative or what like mental model keeps you imprisoned in an organization that's doing these terrible things to you when you could leave if you wanted to? I can't really wrap my head around that.

It's crazy to me, right? Is it fear? Is it the desire to please the other people? Is it pure brainwashing? Is that part of it? Right. Is it social pressure of other members? because remember her family's in nexium, she's in her family's home.

They're the ones dropping food off at the door. I think that probably played a huge role in it. I think so. You got to wonder what the family members are thinking, like, oh, this is the room where my sister's been locked in that we haven't seen for two years. This is fine. This is totally fine. It's just what she has to do.

They're in the country illegally because they've overstayed their visas from Mexico. So one of the reasons they asked her, why don't you leave? She's like, I didn't have a passport. Right. I didn't have anywhere to go. I couldn't go to the police because they would have deported me. but my family lives here, so where was I going to, and what was I going to do? And she was also, like, again, 15 or so years old. This is a kid. And it's just absolutely insane to me that somebody

would do this to a child and do this to their own family. Celebrities also play a role here. I mean, we've seen this with Scientology. Celebrities are a major commodity in cults because they lend an air of legitimacy and prestige to the group. So Allison Mack from the Smallville series, the Superman-related thing, was in Nexium. And you know, it's funny. about this though, Gabe. She's so famous that when they go on the run in Mexico to escape, the cops are like, why is this famous celebrity with blonde hair? Maybe don't go on the run to Mexico with a blonde celebrity that people recognize all over the world, my dude. You freaking, just one of many bonehead moves that this cult leader makes, Keith Rennery, where you're just like,

you're not nearly as smart as you'd like people to think you are. Dipshit. Well, also, like, what a weird look for him as a cult leader to be hiding out in a house in Mexico. And then the equivalent of the FBI, I don't remember who it was, like local law enforcement or FBI or Federales or whatever. They find him at this house. And he's just like hiding in a closet. Yeah, like a ween. Totally. Yeah.

It's just such a igno-igna, is this the word ignominious? I don't know if I've ever used that word in real life. Or ignoble? Ignoble or ignominious or just like a sad end to. It's pathetic. And the whole thing is sad, but it's pathetic. It's like this is what it has come to. But the crazy thing is that in his mind, he's being persecuted.

he's being targeted. This is a conspiracy to take down his legacy in this amazing organization he created. One of the most disturbing parts of the vow is learning that the narrative Keith has in his mind is so different from the reality. And that speaks to the narcissism and the sociopathy, but it also just speaks to like, this is so much of life is like, I have this story and you have this story and I'm involved in this organization. And these two narratives are completely incompatible. One of the most interesting episodes, in my opinion of season two, focuses on they sort of cure people with Tourette's, which has no cure. And it's talked about in the book too, how this treatment was so effective with these people who had Tourette's. And I didn't want to throw the baby out with

the bathwater because I'm thinking, wow, this is something that actually worked. It'd be a shame of something that was so promising ended up being discarded or lost as a result of this. But then I do some research and I find out it's just cognitive behavioral therapy that they sort of of bastardized and apply and put in and they say, this is nexium, we invented this. And it's like, no, you didn't. You're just grabbing vulnerable people with an uncurable condition and looping them into your cult because then they owe you one because you've cured this thing that dominated their life. I wasn't sure what to make of that part in the documentary because they show, you know, they follow two people. There's the guy, the very charismatic coach who apparently was cured of his

Tourette's and is like a motivational speaker. And then there's this young woman who also had pretty severe Tourette's. There was video of her after going through the treatment, quote unquote, treatment with Nancy. And her Tourette's is, it's like mostly, I would say 90% at least is gone. I mean, the symptoms of it. Yeah. It was so bad before you felt really just crushed for this woman who's never going to live a normal life or a normal existence. And then you look at her and you're like, oh, until she says I have Tourette's and you're around her for a long time, you wouldn't even friggin' notice. But what was really strange about it is that then there's footage of her being miserable in the cult, right? There's like footage of her in a training session and she's just like

almost seems to be, I mean, it sort of seems like she's traumatized or just really disturbed. She's like staring at the table. She's not really engaging. She even might seem to be suppressing some symptoms at that point. And I couldn't figure out if what they were saying is that the Tourette's stuff worked on them, but it came at a high cost. Like, yes, they got rid of the symptoms, but now she's a cult member and she's indoctrinated and she's struggling and they're doing all this stuff that Sarah and Nibby talked about, or is the process of getting rid of the symptoms suppressive in and of itself? Do you know what I mean? Like, is this not just healthy therapy? Were they doing something to her to just like stuff it down so it didn't come out? I couldn't really get a read on that, could you? Yeah, it was kind of tough. I don't know.

I'd have to hear from somebody who treats Tourette's with CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and find out like, okay, are they just co-opting this? And this is something that other therapists can use for Tourette's, or does this have to come with all this bad stuff? And maybe that's the deal you make with the devil. Like, I'll get rid of your Tourette's, but you're going to be totally screwed up because we're going to traumatize you and indoctrinate you and make you feel like crap in a billion other different ways that are not visible versus the Tourette's. Another thing that I found so interesting about our conversation with Sarah Nippy is Sarah's big on telling her story. And I couldn't help thinking about all the times on Feedback Friday we've heard from people who have been through

some really heavy stuff. At least one person is written into the show saying, I was falsely accused of a crime. I went to prison and now I think that everybody thinks I did this terrible thing, something like that. And oftentimes our advice is you need to start opening up about this and you need to start telling your story and you need to make it not a shameful thing as much as possible or just own the shame and be open about that because the more it stays a secret, the worse the shame is going to get, the more you're going to isolate, and the more this story is going to haunt you. And I really heard that in their take on what to do with this. I mean, what do you do? You spend a decade plus of your life in a cult. You are culpable for some of the stuff. You

brought people into it. It's just fascinating that that healing power of a story is real, and it's what they've chosen to do with it. And I thought that was really remarkable. The whole story really is, really is something else. I mean, from the humorous stuff where this guy, I mean, he's head of an organization, he calls himself Vanguard. How do you not stop and go, okay, this guy's a narcissistic prick, and maybe this is a cult.

Bob Iger, head of Disney. He's probably Mr. Iger, or Bob, depending on your level in the organization. Steve Jobs was Steve. But Keith is, this tool is Vanguard and Nancy was Prefect. I mean, come on. At some point, you're like, come on, folks. They said that they already knew

that they were, like, Sarah didn't It was already weird. It was already weird the whole time. I mean, Nippy was saying that he didn't really buy into the whole sash concept, right? Which is really funny. Yeah. And Sarah in the book talks about meeting Keith. And she's like, I didn't really like him.

And I didn't really think he was that impressive. It's amazing that you can have those thoughts and you can still be involved. You can still stay involved. I got to say, I love how. Talk about hoist with your own petard. Keith's like, you got to film everything I do. Because if this blows up, they're going to scrutinize the videos and no, we didn't do anything wrong.

Meanwhile, here we are scrutinizing the videos in the vow, and we see some narcissistic prick insisting on being filmed and adored while like dress like a total dipshit open a friggin cereal box at 3 a.m. And playing volleyball and spouting word salad philosophy for hours on end. Like not the effect you were looking for here, Keith, Vanguard. A narcissist to the point where anybody from the outside is just going, this guy is pathetic, really. But what he did is so terrifying. He was so effective at it. because he was able to sniff out Nancy Salzman needing approval from her mother, getting people in a loop, withholding that approval, knowing women in the organization wanted

children, promising to have babies with like a half dozen of them, keeping people on stage for hours and humiliating them and then being like, good job, you know, offering them approval at the end of it. It's just the coercion tactics are everywhere. And I think... I just say, not just in the curriculum, but even the way they wove it into nexium's, like operating procedures. In the book, Sarah talked about signing up for her first training. And when she found out how much it was, she balked at it, understandably, and she tried to back out. Right, thousands of dollars.

And the person she spoke with on the phone said, wait, you're 28 and you have money problems. How are you going to take charge of your life? Sarah's like, well, I'm an actor and I might be up for a job and I'm hoping I get a job. And when I get a job, I can maybe pay for it. And the person said, well, do you want to sit around and wait for for your agent to call you or do you want to take charge of your life? Right. This is the length they went to. I mean, it wasn't just what you learned in the seminars. It was also what they taught the people who work there to keep people on the hook, like from a business standpoint. Yeah, the sales process itself also coercive. Really, really wild, really wild. But not surprising. The self-help call, the intro that I went to, people would call me and they'd be really bad salespeople. And I would ask them, like, is this, what do you do? How long have you been in sales? Oh, I'm doing the PhD program, they called it, which is funny because, of course, they're not accredited for anything. It's just some crap you pay for. Pretty hard diatribe? Yeah, yeah. When you're supposedly in this PhD program from this group, you have to make sales calls and sell other people the intro program and get people to upgrade.

And you're using like this crappy amateur sales stuff. But you're also repeating and rehashing the stuff that they used in the first one. Like, well, do you not want to improve your life? And it's like, of course I want to improve my life. But joining your stupid advanced program is not how I want to do it. Well, how do you know that you're on the right track? Because I'm enjoying success in multiple areas of my life and I don't feel like I need this. And I remember the guy goes, oh, well, it sounds like you're really happy.

I guess that's done. And I was just thinking like, this guy failed. Someone behind him is going to be like, you failed this. Yep. He's going to be in a cage for a few weeks. Yeah. Now you have to eat dog food for a week or whatever. That's so crazy because one of the things, you know, they talked about was this whole

concept of being at cause, which means being responsible for your outcomes and for your life. Or even the concept of exploration of meaning, EM. These are not controversial. ideas and they have value. It's like in any, I mean, it's pretty 101 therapy stuff, right? Like, you could look at a situation this way, but isn't there another way to look at it? Or you're complaining about your life and you're playing the victim. But didn't you play a role in this? Like, we have to appreciate that too. These are not crazy concepts, but they were weaponized by the organization to keep people involved and to break them down and then to build them up. And the great

irony of that is that Keith had this idea of what he called a shifter. Oh yeah. Which was an individual, it's basically an individual or a corporation that creates a problem and then uses that problem in order to profit from the solution, which the organization also offers. He talked about this. Sarah talks about it in her book. This is literally what Nexium was doing. And Nancy Salzman talks about this, I believe in the documentary too, where she talks about how they would tear someone down and then show them that Nexium had the keys on how they could build themselves back up again. The irony of that is so profound. And it's another one of those moments that makes me wonder like, you know, I know, I know it's hard to see through it. But when they're teaching the very concept that they themselves are using

and weaponizing, it's hard to imagine your brain not going. Wait a second. I have to raise my hand and ask, or I have to take a break and ask myself why I'm in this organization. I agree. When they give you the game plan, you got to be like, wait a minute. Isn't that exactly what we're doing here? Isn't that what they're doing? Yeah, it's so, man, but it's easy to say this from the outside. And it's a lot harder to internalize the idea that you are loved, you are whole, you're already complete, right? This core wound that most human beings share and the idea that there's something inherently wrong or incomplete or unlovable about us and that only this organization can help you fix

this problem, it just seems like tapping into that core fear is a universal cult tactic. And frankly, we're part of most major religions. But again, we'll leave that on the table. But when you get down to it, this is what Danes. organizations prey on to keep people on the hook. Yeah. And it's available in every single human being, especially I would argue people who are so keen on getting involved in an organization because they want to grow. I think you touched on this in the interview, Jordan, like these people, Sarah Nippy, and I would even say someone like me if I got involved, it's like you want to understand

what life is about. You want to get better. These are not crazy desires. These are normal impulses. These are needs that make us human. It's crazy to think that those things can also be the wound or the vulnerability that the wrong person can get their hooks into. Absolutely, man. Man, wow. Really, really such a fascinating conversation, a little bit scary. Although, not because Keith is going to get out anytime soon. I mean, he's in prison for sex trafficking for decades and for over a century among other

crimes, but just because it's so easy to see how smart people can get sucked into something like this, slowly over time especially, because somewhere in the United States or anywhere, for that matter. And I don't mean even Scientology or other cults we already know exist. There's another nexium out there bubbling up slowly right now that we're going to see on HBO in five or ten years. It's happening right now. There's somebody listening right now who's in a group like this and is going,

hmm, maybe. Yeah, I think that's why it's important to talk to people like this. Jordan, I was also so interested by the whole humor thing and how they're being funny might have helped them get out. And Nippy had his theory on why humor is important. And Sarah obviously is very funny, and she talked about why it's important to laugh at yourself. But as they were talking, I was also wondering whether being funny and having a sense of humor also makes you take yourself less seriously.

Like, it's okay to have a laugh at yourself, or it's okay to be a little bit of a clown, or it's sort of safer for you to look at your foibles or your mistakes and be like, oh, what a ridiculous thing. I made that huge mistake. Ha, ha, ha. And you can get through that. Whereas a lot of the people who are still stuck in nexium, you know, Nippy was saying that their self-image is so important, it's so threatening to have to give up that self-image

by admitting to themselves that they were wrong and that they were conned and that they've been involved in this organization that's been hurting them. But I do wonder if maybe when you're funny, your self-image isn't quite as important. It's not quite as brittle. So you're able to look at yourself and maybe say, oh, shit, yeah, I need to, yep, made a mistake. And then, yeah, maybe you don't laugh at it immediately. But at least you have a little sense of irony or a little flexibility to not take yourself quite so seriously. The idea that is that you have a little that that could be a superpower that could save you is fascinating to me. Once again, special thanks to Peloton for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

We really appreciate your support. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Amanda Katarzi, who was raised in a cult and later sex and labor trafficked. The women were trained to be insanely submissive. Like, you could never say no to any man. And then the men were trained in a very military way. these people are well-armed and well-trained. And it's a whole group that thinks that the world is evil

and they need to repopulate the world with their people to bring the kingdom of God. When you turn 13 in that culture, you're an adult. So to be 13 years old being courted by men twice my age, three times my age, to see if I would make a good wife, it was just kind of outrageous. So I moved to California to go to school and I start training MMA.

And my trafficker was there. He was actually one of my boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know, I like you. And so now we're dating. So this is my first adult relationship. He's twice my age at this point. And then he would always take me up to his cabin on the mountain, which was really far away from everybody else.

No phone service, isolation, and it was on a Native American reservation. So whatever they wanted to do to me, could. Oops, you accidentally got gang raped. That was very common of going to go train and then all a sudden, now that you fought 12 rounds, now you're going to be raped. A girl ran a red light and T-bone my truck. So I pull out my phone and I text my trafficker and I say, hey, I almost just died to a car accident. He said, is your face fucked up? And I'm like, no. He said, well, you're still finkable then. Something isn't right here. This is

This isn't who I want to be. This isn't what I want. And it was like I was coming out of water. I had this moment of clarity. And I knew something wasn't right. And I knew this wasn't what I wanted. And I knew I needed to act fast in order to get out of that situation because I knew it'd get sucked back in. To hear how she escaped her dire situation, check out episode 631 of the Jordan Harbinger show.

Again, really fascinating conversation. There's probably a lot more there. A big thank you to Nipi and Sarah. All things Nippy and Sarah will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, videos on YouTube, advertisers, deals, and discount codes, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe, where are you online? You can find me on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems software and tiny habits, the same stuff I use every single day. It's our six-minute networking course. That course is free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course, teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty, build relationships before you need them, and no cult tactics, promise. Pinky swear. Come join us. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. This show is created in

association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's interested in cults, has seen the vow on HBO and is talking about it nonstop. Definitely share this episode with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know Podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

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