The Jordan Harbinger Show - 776: Kevin Dutton | The Wisdom of Psychopaths Part One

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

Kevin Dutton (@therealdrkev) is a psychologist and author known for his research on the psychology of evil and the science of charisma. His latest book is The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success. [This is part one of a two-part episode. Keep an eye out for part two later this week!] What We Discuss with Kevin Dutton: How having a con artist father who never lost his cool sparked Kevin's interest in understanding the mindset of the psychopath. What Kevin means when he says that psychopaths understand the "words but not the music" of emotion. Contrary to popular belief, psychopaths aren't necessarily violent. They could be a surgeon or a killer, a firefighter or an arsonist. (Or even a professor or an ax murderer.) Why psychopaths are often excellent at persuasion and identifying weakness in others. What percentage of the population exhibits psychopathy, and how psychopaths can actually be useful for society. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/776 Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. I always remember a very bad psychopath I interviewed once, who had killed a number of people. And he said, you know, you don't need to have color vision to see how a traffic light works. You just need to know which bits are lit up. And that's pretty chilling. But that's actually a very accurate portrayal

of how people who are very high on the psychopathic spectrum see the world and see other people. They don't see the color of the emotion. They just see which bits are lit up. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people.

We have in-depth conversations with scientists, entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional Fortune 500 CEO, National Security Advisor, money laundering expert or cold case homicide investigator. And each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better thinker. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, our starter packs are a great place to begin. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes organized by topic.

They'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Topics like persuasion, influence, disinformation, cyber warfare, China, North Korea, abnormal psychology, crime and cults, and more. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. We've done a few shows on psychopaths and criminal minds, and I wanted to get a more scientific evaluation of psychopaths and psychopathy today. That's what we're going to be doing here on this episode with Dr. Kevin Dutton, new friend of mine here, and author of The Wisdom of Psychopaths, What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers

Can Teach Us About Success, Really Good Title, Honestly, and a good book. We cover a lot today, and the episode eventually became two parts, because this one was just so interesting, we had a lot to cover. We debunk some common myths around psychopaths, such as the old trope that they don't have emotions or they can't feel empathy. Turns out this is absolutely not the case, and in many cases the opposite might actually be true. Also, psychopathy is a spectrum. It's not binary. In other words, some people are more psychopathic than others, and that shouldn't really surprise us once we think about it, right? Psychopaths also tend to be good persuaders and good at reading others, and we'll

discuss why this is the case and touch on what we can do about it. And last but not least, am I a psychopath? Are you a psychopath? Where are we on the spectrum? There's a psychopath test. You can take it along with me. The results should disturb you. All right, here we go with Kevin Dutton. I googled how much soccer players make in the U.S., and it's like, you have to have another job during the off season if you want to survive, basically. Over here in the UK, let me try and work this out in dollars. The top players are probably on a be nearly a million dollars a week. Something along those lines, mate. I think that's very true. By the way, I found the lowest paid Premier League soccer player, because there's no sense finding somebody who's three leagues down,

right? Of course, they're not making money. His name is Jordan Zamora. He's at, I'm going to mispronounce this, Burnmouth. Burnmouth? Oh, Bournemouth. Bournemouth. Yeah, it looks like this guy, Zamora, the article, of course, has so many ads. Let's see, this guy, weekly wage of 385 pounds, whereas Cristiano Ronaldo makes 515,000, 385 pounds per week.

So Ronaldo makes 515,000 pounds per week more than Jordan Zamora. That's quite the disparity. Yeah, there you go. Slightly skewed, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, it's really interesting. I've often thought of that.

And, you know, the other interesting thing with, I mean, a lot of the top Premier League academies, Jordan, you know, have kids as young as, some of them as young as nine years old in them, you know. Wow. And, yeah, and then, you know, they continue with their schooling. then they come up through the ranks and, you know, I'm sure for your American listeners, you know, not that familiar with, you know, British soccer. I mean, it's a huge, almost like a religion here in the UK. And, you know, it's a huge dream to play alongside the big stars in the club that you might,

you know, be in the academy of. So some clubs have academies, you know, the ages of nine or ten kids go up the ranks in the academies and the youth academies. And then you get like, you know, the final kind of academy kids, you know, like 16 to 18. and then, you know, sometimes they might get to train with the first team, sometimes, you know, whatever. And at the end of the day, you know, only a small proportion of those kids in that, like, you know, last realm of that academy, as it were, actually get picked. And, you know, you can face being just set free, let loose into everyday life. That's it for the rest of your life.

Your dreams crushed. You're never going to play for that side. And there's a hell of a lot of mental health problems. I bet. With kids that come through those academies and then release. by the clubs with, you know, as I say, you know, their dreams are playing alongside the Ronaldo's and, you know, the David Beckham's gone. It's really sad. There was one very famous Premier League manager, really interesting, who had a very psychopathic kind of trick that he used to use.

Very Machiavellian, very fiendishness. And he used to basically say to, because he had scouts, you know, obviously he would be training the first team and he'd have like scouts and academy trainers, you know, training the young kids. And he would say to, uh, he would say to, uh, you know, one of the, one of the academy trains, you know, if a kid had promised, you was really doing well, it'd say, call him up and allow him to, let's have him train with the first team. So all of a sudden, you could imagine this kid coming out of the realms of the academy, training with the first team, you know, all the stars, you know, all the famous stars that he's probably idolized ever since he was five years old. And no matter how well he did,

the manager would call him into his office and say, you were absolutely shit. You played terribly. That's it. You are never, ever, ever going to play for this team. ever in a million years. Go back to the academy. I'm going to put you on a track. You are out of this cup. That's it. You're never playing for the first team.

And then, but here's the trick, right? He would then turn around to the trainer who trained in the academy and say, watch how he responds, right? By the way, the guy might have played absolutely fantastically, right, with the first team. That doesn't matter how he played. He would always say the same thing. And then he would say to the academy trainer, watch how he responds. If he's the kind of kid that just, you know, says, okay, well, that's it.

I can't. There's obviously gives up. There's nothing I can do. then get him on the transfer list. However, if he's the kind of kid that says, I'm going to really show him how he's wrong, I'm going to respond, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He said, call him up.

He's going to be playing for the club. So it's a nice little trick there. You know, some people say, well, that's really cruel, and it's kind of gratuitous and it's crass. I don't agree with that. I think it's absolutely fair. I think it's a fair tactic. It is hard.

Yeah. But if you're in a world final where, you know, you're a goal down with five minutes to play, you need guys who are going to stand up and fight. Yeah. And not people whose shoulders and heads are going to go down. They're going to give up and say, well, that's it. So he was actually, you know, he was selecting for a psychological trait using that trick,

which is actually, I think, fair play. Yeah, I mean, I doubt that if the guy has a breakdown in the office, that guy's like, you're such a wimp, get out of here. I don't want to see your ugly face. He probably goes, look, man, it happens to a lot of people. Yeah. It's just not for you. Good luck.

You'll be fine somewhere else, maybe. It depends on, I guess, how he responds to that response, right? If he digs his heel into the guy's eyeball, that. That's a problem. But if he says, look, man, it happens to a lot of folks. This is Premier League. You know, you might even do well on another Premier League team, just not ours. Okay, leave the kid with a little bit of hope.

So it depends on how cruel this guy really is once the guy's down, right? Yeah, that's right. And he just wanted to see how the guy responded. Could he actually respond under that pressure? And, you know, having ostensibly having those dreams crushed. Could he say, okay, I'm going to show you that you're wrong because that was the kind of, you know, That was the kind of character that he wanted. Of course, the downside to that, which is kind of what you're alluding to,

is the fact that actually you might be losing a lot of really good players that way. Actually, you know, not everybody might be, have that, you know, nth degree of mental toughness, but actually they might make up for it in other ways. Or they actually believe you out of all the people in the world to make that assessment. And so you crush them in a unique way that maybe another person or situation would not be able to do. You're absolutely right, but all kinds of, I'm fascinated with that, having worked with it in elite sport for a few years now, you know, the psychology of elite sport is very interesting. It kind of flows, you know, very, well, I suppose, obviously, you know, because that's where I've

ended up a lot of times. It flows kind of nicely from the psychopathic mindset and all that kind of stuff that I've studied, really. It sure does. Yeah, look, I'm thinking about this now, I'm thinking, what would I do in this situation? And if some dofess on Instagram sends me a DM and says, your interviews are terrible, I've seen this in YouTube comments. Like, you suck compared to some other person who you've never heard of or a famous person. Yeah. This is terrible.

Your questions are awful. I just go, look at this idiot. But if a famous interviewer, if Christian Amunpur says, Jordan, don't quit your day job, I can't believe you made a business out of this. this is you're truly a no talent ass clown when it comes to interviewing. I would really feel awful at that, right? Because she knows what she's talking about. If Terry Gross from Fresh Air, which is a show you'd never heard of, but is very famous in the United States on NPR, if she said, this is really not a good podcast. You're lucky you have anybody listening to this. I would be upset about that. But if her

crazy cousin at Thanksgiving who listens to a handful of podcast said the same thing, I'd be like, well, I don't really care what you think, Bobby, right? I don't care. I agree. I, but, But you know what? I've been chatting to you for a few minutes now, Jordan. And I don't think for one minute, you might feel bad, but I don't think for one minute already you'd give up. I think you'd probably say, okay, what am I going to do about this? Okay? I think you would probably listened to. By the way, knowing you already, I think you'd probably invite them on, wouldn't you? Well, yeah, I'd say, you know, that's a really interesting point you've made. Let's talk about this while we're recording. That's the great response there, right? Right there, isn't it?

I also think, though, I have at this point enough evidence, right? I'm not trying to start a I've got 15 years of experience. I've got checks coming in every month that support my family. So I know I'm doing something right. But a kid who goes from high school or whatever it is in the UK and says, this is my one shot. And the guy says, you're terrible. How you made it this far as a miracle.

You've just been lucky. You're never going to make a career out of this. That's a different, more uniquely vulnerable position. So I guess I can't really compare those two things. It's kind of a sickener. You get it in special forces training as well. So it's special forces selection rather. It's a psychological ploy.

I hadn't really thought of the parallels between this, but actually, you know, typically you will get in special forces selection. So we have the SAS Special Air Service over here. You've got Greenberry's Delta Force over there, of course. A classic technique would be okay. You've got a 40, 50K march. You're wearing, you know, like 70, 80 kilograms of, you know, gear on your back. Yeah.

And you're really, really exhausted by the time you come to the air. end of it, and there's the truck that's going to pick you up to take you back to camp, and then all of a sudden the guy who's in charge says, I'm sorry, but the truck's parked another 10k down the road, you've got to keep going. Well, actually, what people don't know is it's only parked half a K around the corner. But it's really interesting when you look at the people that are going to say, shit, I'm going to keep going here, whatever, or the people that just go, that's it, I've had enough, I can't take anymore. The people that keep going, have that little surprise. It actually is not another 10k, it's only half K around the corner. So these little tricks of

the trade are kind of there to put psychological pressure on, I think. I mean, I smile, but I also think what a miserable existence that is, but that's what they're selecting for. Although in this case of the SAS and the other special forces, I'm not so sure it's parked half a click around the road. I think it's probably 30K and they go, oh, did I say 10? And they probably do that to you until you fall face down in the muck and then they have to turn you over because you can't breathe anymore. and then they probably back the truck up. You're obviously known more than you're letting on here, Jordan. But I think we've gone far enough to listen to, excuse the pun,

I think we've gone far enough down that road. But I think you might know a little bit more than you're letting on, man. Yeah, yeah. I just, when I look at the guys who can do that stuff, I tell them the most athletic thing I've ever done, and then they tell me something that sounds absolutely ridiculous that I would never even attempt, and they're doing that for fun because it's easy.

One of my trainers, he's a substitute, and he was also a special air service guy. And for fun, he took an empty beer keg, which I don't know how much that weighs, but it's heavy. He probably drunk it dry first. He may have drank it. Yeah, he did that bit first. Him and a bunch of his friends, they got really,

they did get really drunk and they helped somebody move all of his stuff upstairs. So they did that. And then the next day, they put the empty beer kegs on their backs, and they did five miles or kilometers, I can't remember which, but I think it was miles because I'm just going off memory here, where they would walk 10 steps, do a burpee, which is like a push-up and a jump-up thing. Oh, yeah, I know.

And then they would do that again for five miles with the keg on their back. And that was fun for them. And I'm thinking I couldn't even do like three of those, let alone five miles. That's because they're psychopaths, George. I think so. Okay. You don't need any convincing of that. And I know, actually, in all seriousness, you know, as you know,

I've studied these guys. And they are. It was one of the interesting things. Whenever I talk about psychopaths, it's like, you know, well, really? Why are all psychopaths are in prison, aren't they? Well, actually, no. Special Forces guys are one of the first people that I say, look, here's a great example of this. You know, I think it was George Orwell had a great quote.

He said, good men sleep sound in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. And it's a very unpalatable thought, but it's actually true. And I think what you look at, when you look at special forces guys, the course very high on the psychopathic spectrum. So that's what I would say. The idea of like you're either a psychopathy or not, yeah, it kind of works at the very, very top clinical ends. But actually, we're all on a kind of spectrum.

And there is no one I have met in special forces anywhere that isn't high on the psychopathic spectrum. And, you know, you've got to be. I mean, you jump out of a plane at 30,000 feet, high altitude, low opening into the sea at night, wearing a ton of equipment, you swim to shore, you're picked up by a boat squadron, then you go and fight, as happened in the Falklands War in the 1980s. Or, more recent example, you're in the mountains of northern Afghanistan, you go to the Tora Bora Cave Complex, which was one of the Taliban's hideouts, you go ahead-outs, you go in there with night vision goggles and you knife-fight them in their own backyard.

I mean, because obviously you can't fire guns in there because you bring the whole cave complex crashing down. So you have to go in there. It's literally like, you know, fighting 200 years ago with knives, the Taliban in his labyrinthine cave complex. And the guys love it. That's the thing. You know, special forces guys love that kind of thing because it's what they've trained

for us. One guy, you know, I know very well, said with typical British understatement, it's not every soldier's cup of tea. And he absolutely meant it. It isn't. But these guys live for that kind of thing. So that's another example where you get like, you know, as I say, psychopathic characteristics. being selected for the good.

So you're absolutely right. Your friend who was special forces who did the barrels doesn't surprise me one bit. Yeah, it's weird because when you think psychopath, you don't think, this guy is really nice

and when he's a trainer, he's really good, he's very caring. Of course, he's got that charm that psychopaths have, but he's also like, let me check in on you and see how you're feeling

the next day. And you go, but wait, if you're a psychopath, aren't you supposed to be this cold, uncaring, violent person who just uses everyone

and discards them and the answer is not necessarily, right? Do you know what, Jordan, I wish you had rid my agent years ago. You're going to save me a lot of trouble. But that's exactly the argument that I've always made, you know. So I made a dis-thing. In fact, I wrote a book with an ex-Says guy called Andy McNabbings, very famous over here. And it was a follow-up to wisdom of psychopaths. And it was, you know, when the media picked up on wisdom of psychopaths,

which was the, I think, still the only book to my knowledge that actually argues that, you know, psychopathic characteristics can be good. The media started saying, well, you know, that was the science version. We want like the self-help version. We want to know how to kind of, I mean, believe it or not, we want to know how to kind of shift ourselves up the other end of the psychopathic spectrum. How to turn up your inner psychopath for fun and profit. Yeah. And that's absolutely right. It's pretty much our strap line right there, actually. But anyway, we wrote a book called The Good Psychopath's Guide to Success. And, you know, the interesting thing was that phrase, good psychopaths. First of all, I think it's probably, if we're going to talk about psychopath, it's probably a lot of your

listeners might actually know what a psychopath is. Sure. So, you know, you know, A lot of people might think, you know, in real life, it's Ted Bundy. Cereal Cullors like Ted Bundy on the silver screen. That's just it. Yeah. When we think a psychopaths, we think of serial killers. Yeah. But I think anybody with any life experience has not only come across a psychopath.

We may have had one as a partner, a boss. We might even still have a friend who's a psychopath that we kind of think, like, there's something up with that guy, but we're friends. But I don't know if I want to trust him with my bank account, for example. Wouldn't give him my login to my bank. Exactly. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Kevin Dutton. We'll be right back.

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easy, hopefully non-cringy, down-to-earth kind of way. No awkward strategies, no cheesy tactics that are going to make you pucker up, if you know what I mean, before doing it. Just practical exercises that are going to make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better peer, a better friend, and it just takes a few minutes a day. The course is free, and many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course. So, hey, come join us. You'll be in smart company. You can find the course at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Now, back to Kevin Dutton. There's people where you go, what, that guy's so weird. What is this deal? And they become killer in business or otherwise. Yeah, you got it. Well, in fact, you know, we can, if we got time a little bit later on, I've got a little test which lasts about two minutes we could do for your listeners to see if any of those are a psychopath and we can score it.

Sure. So we can see if you're one as well, actually. Yeah, we did it. We should. You didn't expect that, Jordan, did you? But we can do that. We could do that a bit later on. But yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, people think, you know, it's Ted Bundy or Hannibal Lecter. But actually when psychologists like myself, self-talk about psychopaths. We're actually referring to a distinct subset of individuals with a specific kind of constellation, as it were, of personality characteristics. Those characteristics are typically ruthlessness, fearlessness, mental toughness, self-confidence, coolness under pressure, emotional detachment. I don't have any of those characteristics. So I definitely am not a psychopath. We'll find out that. Psychopaths are also pretty good liars, remember. That's true. By the way, but we'll find out. We'll find out. Yeah. And of course, yeah, those kind of trademarked

deficits in conscience and empathy that you hear so much about. Now, here's the trick, right? None of those traits is necessarily a problem in itself, okay? In fact, all of them dialed up at the right levels and deployed within the right context can actually prove pretty useful. The key is in context and level, okay? So here's the deal, right? Imagine that those characteristics that I've just outlined for you comprise the hodgepodge of knobs and sliders on a mixer, studio mixing desk, okay? Okay. Twiddle them up and down at various combinations, and you arrive at two conclusions, okay? Now, the first conclusion is that there's no one dial-fits-all at which, you know, that each of these, there's no one correct setting, but it will invariably depend on timing upon

the particular set of circumstance. You might happen to find yourself in, okay? So, you might need to turn ruthlessnesses up and fearlessness down or whatever. There's no one definitive correct setting. The second conclusion is that there exists certain jobs or professions out there that by their very nature are going to demand that some of these mixing desk dials are turned up just a little bit higher than average, right, demand what I call rather provocatively some precision engineered psychopathy, all right? So give an example, right? So we've already covered a couple, right?

So imagine you've got the skill set to be a top surgeon, but that you lack the ability to emotionally disengage from the person you're operating on. Ah, yeah. You're not going to cut it. Well, actually, you're literally not going to cut it quite, you know, as I say, quite literally. Imagine you've got the skill set to be a top lawyer, but you lack that almost pathological self-confidence to be the centre of attention in the middle of a packed courtroom, that kind of almost that inherent narcissism, you're not going to make it. You just made an example of

business. Imagine you got the skill set to be a top business person. You know, you've got the financial smarts and the business acumen to be a top business person, but you lack the ruthlessness to fire someone if they're underperforming or the coolness under pressure to ride out a storm or, I don't know, the sheer balls necessary to take a calculated risk when it was appropriate. Now, those characteristics I've just outlined for you there, ruthlessness, fearlessness, self-confidence, coolness, undepression, emotional detachment, they comprise five core characteristics of the psychopathic personality. So here's the deal.

I don't think they're dysfunctional in those particular contexts, right? However, your point is a valid one. When you get outside those particular contexts, if you can't turn those dials back down to normal levels, that's when you're going to end up in the ship. That's when you're going to end up killing someone or when you're going to end up, you know, as I say, you know, scamming someone committing major fraud. That's when you might well end up in prison.

But a good psychopath is someone who's able to dial those dials up to the right level, sometimes maximum, when they really need it. So the key is in the context, the combination of the dials, the levels at which they're set, and the intention for which they're used, really. So that's the theory in a nutshell, really. As you can see, special forces, when you're in a special forces environment, when you're in a sporting environment, in a major final, for instance, you need to dial that ruthlessness and fearlessness style and the conscience dial,

you need to dial ruthlessness up and conscience and empathy down. But then when you leave, say, you know, the Super Bowl final, or you leave like the Torabora Cates in Afghanistan, you've got to make sure that you turn those dials back to normal settings. So, Kevin, from an evolutionary perspective, is this why psychopaths have not been bred out of existence? Because they have these undesirable traits, which in theory means they shouldn't still be around, but then they must have some other advantages that perpetuate the gene or set of genes that make them this way. So they, like you said, if they're great at special forces, they're great at being certain kinds of trial lawyers, surgeons and things like that,

then the disturbing truth is that some of the people we need most in society happen to also be psychics. A very simple answer to that question is a very obvious answer, and that is that psychopaths can be very, very promiscuous and they have more offspring. So that's one of the reasons why they're still around, because, as I say, they're, you know, their mating strategy is kind of different to a normal mating strategy. So typically, you know, one of the hallmarks of like bad psychopaths, as it were, is promiscual sexual behavior. It's on a number of the psychometric measures, and so they're going to have more offspring.

So putting that to one side, what is it about these characteristics which determines that they're still around? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you go back into evolutionary history in the dates of our primitive ancestors on, you know, the East African savannas living in small groups, you need a warrior hawks in those groups. You needed, you know, who were going to fight other groups that encroached on your territory. You know, as I say, there was a lot of intergroup wars, you know, supply and demand in terms of territory. There were all kinds of pressures on that. There was competition for resources in terms of, you know, as I say, best places to shelter for the night and also hunting grounds. So, you know, if you've got warrior hawks in your group who are able to, you know, be ruthless and fight members of other groups to the death, then they're going to be, as I say, they're going to be very prized.

Also, you know, in terms of hunting, that predatory kind of acumen, the ability, you know, it's really interesting when you look back in hunted, today, actually, in, you know, as I say, nomadic tribes and hunter-gatherer groups still around. No different to way back in our prehistoric ancestry. The best hunters aren't necessarily the ones that can just keep tracking an animal. It's the ones that are able to predict where the animal's going to go and almost slip into their mindset. And so as a result, save energy. So that kind of predatory mind reading, as it were, was also very valuable, which is a very

psychopathic characteristic. And also you need people, again, who could infiltrate other groups, who were manipulative, who could fake emotion, who could fake sincerity, who could hide in plain sight to get information from other groups. So again, that was very valuable in the days of our evolutionary history. And these are the characteristics which have kind of survived. Our brains today, as you know, are pretty much similar to the brains that we had three million years ago. Not much has changed. What's changed is the context and environment and culture in which we live in. So absolutely these traits have stuck around. Of course, we live in a very different world now than we used to back in those days.

And as I say, if you use these traits in the wrong combinations at the wrong levels with the wrong intentions, that's when you can get into serious trouble and you can cause a lot of damage. It's really interesting. The Vikings used to have like a special force if unit, I guess you could call it, called the berserkers. Oh, yeah. And it's where the word berserkers. word berserk came from. And these guys, I mean, the Vikings were pretty ferocious anyway, but these guys kind of fought in a trance like fury. And they were much feared, obviously, in those

days. The problem with the berserkers was what they did in peacetime, because they couldn't stop fighting. So that actually proves your point. I mean, they would then turn on their own community. So they literally couldn't dial that kind of aggression down. So they were brilliant in wars and in battles, but actually during peacetime, they were an absolutely. disaster. I remember reading about the blood feuds. I studied this in law school, blood feuds and Vikings and stuff like that. I remember the berserkers and it was like if you had these guys on your side, they counted as more than one human, I think. That's exactly right. The way they solved a lot of problems back then was you'd think they would go and battle it out, but what you would do is

you would go and get as many people as you could that would have your back and they would meet. And if you had more, then they already knew what the outcome of the battle was going to be. So you didn't actually fight. There's no reason to kill anybody or hurt anybody. You just went, ah, well, Jordan got more than Eric, so Jordan wins this dispute. Absolutely. Yeah, if you had the berserkers, it was like, well, but Eric has five berserkers. So those guys count as five men each. So now you got to do the math differently. The other interesting point there is the fact that, and you get this with great, great sports people as well, competitors because of the reputation that precedes them, their opponents are already beaten before they even start. So, you know, you get these with people who are very dominant

their sport great champions, you know, before you even face them, you think, well, I'm going to lose. And that's it. Obviously, you're at a huge psychological disadvantage there. And incidently, that is also the mindset of when you look at pack animals, any pack or animals that live in packs or troops, and you look at the, you know, the alpha male in the group, people often think, well, it's obviously the alpha male is the guy that wins the most fights. Actually, it's not. If you study anthropology and evolutionary biology, what you find is that the alpha male, the leader of a lot of pack animals, is actually the animal that can convince others not to fight in the first place because they're going to get beat. And as a result of that, they're able to maintain that

position of leadership far more. Because if you think about it, if it were the case that the leaders of pack animals were the ones that won the most fights, well, let's say you're the leader of a pack, you have six fights that you win, you're getting weaker and weaker and weaker, and you're going to get wounded, then I come along and I take you on, I beat you, then I have six fights, and then I moused it by another guy who's fresher. So you get a revolving, if you have it like it's the one that wins the most fights, you've got a revolving door of leadership, which doesn't work in evolutionary context. But so it's the one that can convince the others, you're going to get beat, so don't try it,

sunshine. They're the ones, which are the leaders. But it's interesting we're talking about aggression because the ability, also psychopaths are brilliant persuaders. That's a really valuable tool. All great leaders are great persuaders. And I've written about this. People often ask me, well, you know, but yeah, there's a double-edged sword there because what's the difference between persuasion and manipulation? And of course, you know, you get that in politics all the time.

And I always say the simple answer is it's a bit like, you know, magic in Harry Potter. There's black and white persuasion. There's black and white magic. The same principles underlie it. but again, it's the intentions to which you kind of use it. And that's how I pretty much, you know, I suppose it better be honest. I mean, that's how I got into studying psychopath. You know, many, many years ago, you know, I can give it a long and boring answer that, you know, you go to university and do all your degrees and all.

But my father, my own father was a psychopath. Interesting. Yeah. So, no, no, by the way, it's not genetic. I was going to ask if you inherited that and are you worried about that at all? Well, I mean, it's interesting because it's kind of, it's 50-50, part of its genetic. part of it isn't. And yeah, I'm pretty, I am pretty high on the spectrum, I would imagine. Have you not tested for this? You had to have tested yourself with this.

Well, I'll tell you what we'll do. I'll give you a test in a minute. When you devise tests like it. You're going to test me for it to see if you're a psychopath, something's not adding up here. Yeah, well, exactly, well, exactly right. You can tell me. It's difficult to take your own tests, kind of, when you kind of know what it's kind of going about, it's kind of difficult. Well, yeah. But I mean, looking at myself, I kind of think, well, you know, actually, yeah, I can be pretty ruthless in certain context, I don't really get anxious about too many things. I've never really got anxious. That's the big one for me. So I would say to people like, you know, we were talking earlier, you've got ruthlessness, fearlessness, mental stuff, all these kind of things. If you think

about psychopathy as being like, this is a good way of thinking about it. If you think about it as being like a psychological decathlon, right? You know, you've got 10 events in there. It's like an Olympic discipline. Not to trivialize it, of course, because these guys, bad psychopaths can do a lot harm, but try and make it simple. In order to be a really, really Olympic level psychopath, you've got to have a lot of disciplines within there, which you're good at. You've got to be really good at ruthlessness. You've got to be really good at fitness. So I'm pretty good at those, but I've got a couple of really bad disciplines, and that is that I have a conscience. I would never do someone down, stab them in the back, rip them off or anything like that. We were talking about

football earlier. I'm like your $500 a week psychopath. I'm not like your million dollar a week by the Premier League psychopath. But my dad, he wasn't a violent man, but, you know, as we've just seen, don't necessarily need to be violent to be a psychopath. He was a market trader. Not on the stock market. I grew up in London, by the way,

but in a pretty rough part of London, but not on the stock market. He was on the streets. He would sell all kinds of shit. He'd sell shaving cream to the Taliban. He would literally sell anything to anybody, my dad. But not that good if you grew up in a rough area, unless he just spent all the money on himself.

Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, he was kind of these guys. It was like, you know, if he just made a few quid on something, that was pretty much good enough. Aspirations weren't that high. Got it. Believe it or not. But, I mean, I'll give you a great example of the kind of thing he would do. I mean, I always remember I was about nine or ten.

And it got his hands on a load of diaries, calendar diaries, okay? And these were, these diaries are very different to anything we'd had before, Jordan, because they were actually nice. All right. Usually we were just, or my dad, I was as an only kid, he would sell shit, really. basically. These diaries were amazing. They were, they were leather, probably fake leather. They were embassed.

They were very slim line. And there was a reason for that. But anyway, we sold about, I don't know, 300 of these diaries on the stall in about, I don't know, an hour and a half. It just went like hotcakes, you know. Amazing, amazing. When we got back to the big tenement block that we were living in, big apartment block, run down apartment, I was saying to my dad, that was amazing.

Those diaries, they were, I mean, well, they were very. slim, weren't there? And he said, yeah, there's a reason for that, Kev. And I said, oh, what's that? And he said, April was missing. And I went, you're joking. And sure enough, Jordan, he takes one out of the draw, and it's January, February, March, May, June, July. I couldn't believe it. We've just hold 300 of these diaries. What are we going to do? And I'll never forget it. He said nothing for now, Kev, but let me tell you something. When it comes to the end of March, make sure you pack your swimming trance because we're off to Spain for six weeks. Oh my God. That was the kind of thing he would do without batting an eye. He was shameless. He never thought of the consequences of what

he did. It was just that, it was water for ducks back to him. And he was extremely persuasive. Give you another example. I remember, again, I'd been helping on the store one day, one evening. And he took me out to an Indian restaurant for dinner. There's a lot of Indian restaurants in London. And this is really interesting, actually, from a persuasion point of view, because he said one the most profound things. He wasn't an educated man, as he probably gather. But he said one of the most profound things anyone's ever said to me about the science of social influence. And I told, I think you might have had him on your show, Bob Chaldini. Oh, yeah. He's a good, good friend of mine. And I told Bob Chaldini this. And he really got it. And my dad turned around me, said, Kev, there's one thing I

want you to remember in life, son, it's this, persuasion isn't about getting people to do what they don't want to do. It's about giving people a reason to do what they do want to do. That's a big difference, right? So he said, watch and learn. So we're in his Indian restaurant and he suddenly takes his spoon and he tinkles it against his glass. Anyway, the entire restaurant falls on and he gets to his feet and he makes a speech and impromptu speech, right? And he says, right, I just like to thank everyone for coming. Told you as a psychopath. I just like to thank everyone for coming. Now, I know that some of you you've come just around the corner, and some of you have come from a little bit further a field.

But I want you to know that you're all very welcome. It's very much appreciated it. Oh, then there's a pub across the road called the King's Arms in which we'll be hosting a little drinks reception after this. It would be great to see you all there, at which point he starts to clap, at which point the entire restaurant starts to clap, right? So picture the scene, Jordan, all of a sudden we've got a restaurant full of people, never seen us before, right?

Never seen each other before, all applauding wildly because none of them want to be seen as a gate crashes at a party, right? You know how it works, don't you? So anyway, as we're leaving, remember, I'm only about nine or ten. I can't resist it. So I say, Dad, we're not really going to the pub, are we? And he puts his arm around and he says, of course not some, but let me tell you something. That lot in the restaurant are, and my mate Malcolm, he's just taken over as landlord of that pub.

It'll make a lot of money tonight. Now, can you imagine? It's very shrewd, very cute, isn't it? But can you imagine how much money I would have to pay you to even dream about putting a stunt like that? But that was the kind of charisma and persuasive kind of. talent that he had. So that's another reason why these kinds of people are around still, because a lot of these kinds of characteristics, this charm, charisma, fearlessness, actually serve a purpose in society. It's when they all come together in a perfect storm of

badness, that's when they hit the headlines for all the wrong reasons. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Kevin Dutton. We'll be right back. If you'll like this episode of the show, I would love it if you would share it with other folks. And more importantly, do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. If you're looking for something for yourself or a gift for somebody else, all of those sponsors, all those codes, they're on one page, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Also, if you're for the supremely lazy, you can just go to Jordan Harbinger.com and use the search box on the website to search for any sponsor, and the code

should pop right up. Thank you so much for supporting those who support us. Now for the rest of part one with Kevin Dutton. So you mentioned before that psychopaths are ruthless but not necessarily violent and that there's a spectrum of psychopathy. So is this kind of like the autism spectrum where some is very severe, readily apparent and some is barely noticeable without testing? You got it. Absolutely bang on. So the Wisdom of Psychopaths, which is a book is 10 years old now, mate, to be honest. But The Wisdom of Psychopaths was pretty much the first book, to my knowledge, anyway, that kind of introduce this idea of a science. psychopathic spectrum. And I was actually inspired by the autistic, the Aspergic spectrum that you just

mentioned. People often ask me, actually, we might as well clear it up. What's the difference between, you know, people with autism and psychopathic personalities because both can appear cold and emotionless and lack empathy. I hadn't thought about that. The differences seem pretty apparent, but yeah, tell us. Yeah. Well, without being flipping about it, the bottom line is that people with autism and who are on the autistic spectrum, basically don't get it. Okay. So in psychological terms, they lack what's called a theory of mind, which is the ability to put themselves into the shoes of another person, the ability to imagine what another person is feeling or think. So it's called a theory of mind and generally speaking, people who are on the autistic spectrum lack that theory of mind.

So the trite, flippant but pretty accurate answer is people with autism don't get it. Psychopaths get it. They just don't give a shit. So psychopaths kind of are very good at putting themselves into the positions of someone else, but they just don't care about any pain they inflict. I always remember a very bad psychopath who I interviewed once who had killed a number of people. And he said, you know, you don't need to, you know, have color vision to see how a traffic light works. You just need to know which bits are lit up.

And that's pretty chilling. Yeah. But that's actually a very accurate portrayal of how people who are very high on the psychopathic spectrum see the world and see other people. They don't see the color of the emotion. They just see which bits are lit up. And of course, that gives you a huge advantage when you're trying to persuade someone to do something. You have a great ability then to manipulate because you don't get caught up in the heat and light and the emotion of the argument. You can stand back very cold and dispassionately, almost like a psychological chess player and move people around like chess pieces on a board.

So you're absolutely right. Psychopathy is on a spectrum like that. And yes, my thinking originally was based on the autistic spectrum. And I thought, well, actually, these days, that's the general approach now to, I think for a lot of clinicians and people are working in a mental health space. So rather than saying someone is anxious or depressed or whatever, yeah, of course, at the higher ends of that, those kinds of of you can see it. If you come into contact with a pure psychopath in everyday life, you're going to know, you're going to feel there's something strange about this person. It might be something to do with the eye contact or whatever. But actually, yeah, most

mental health conditions or psychological disorders, however you want to put it, would be on a spectrum. So anxiety, we're all, yeah, we're all on an anxiety spectrum. Some people are at the high end are very, very anxious. They might have generalized anxiety disorder or social anxiety. and they may need clinical intervention to help that. But most of us kind of fluctuate, and most of us as well kind of can go up the high end at times and then revert back to average. So, you know, that's pretty much the approach to mental health in general these days.

We look at everything on the spectrum. And, you know, if you start putting people into, as you sometimes have to, categorization of mental disorders has its uses. Because, you know, sometimes you need to kind of put people into boxes to know what you're dealing with. But actually, it can have its downsides and, you know, in terms of looking at spectra, that's generally the way that the prevailing, that's pretty much the consensus at the moment, how it's going.

This sounds like what you mean when you said in the book, psychopaths only understand the words but not the music of emotion. So this is like they kind of objectively understand that when somebody's pet dies, they're sad and they're going to look down and they're going to talk lower and they're going to not make eye contact. And they're like, okay, I can do that when something sad happens. But they don't feel sad. They might not have any of those biological markers of somebody who's sad.

Maybe their heart rate doesn't change or whatever you would expect from an actually sad person. Well, it's really funny. You should mention the cat dying there. And, you know, because actually the guy who I wrote Good Psychopause Guy to Success with Andy McNabb, who's an ex-British Special Forces, a very famous soldier over here. He is a psychopath. He came to my lab in the University of Cambridge a few years ago, and I wired him up to all the kinds of machines and gave him the psychometrics and looked at what happened to his brain when I presented various images and all that kind of thing to him. And he passed all the gold standard tests of psychopathy.

So he was, he's, as I say, very hard on the psychopathic spectrum. A game as no surprise to him and no surprise to me either. He actually uses that example of, you know, people say my cat's died. And he says, inside, I'm thinking, well, so what? I don't particularly care. But these days, it's really interesting. He uses, he finds emoticons really helpful. That's interesting.

He's like a man, like he needs someone to go, I'm sad. Yeah. Frowny face. Yeah. And emoticons has proved quite useful to him. Now, he's a multi-millionaire bestselling author. He's a great writer and has written accounts of experiences in Iraq and special forces. as a career in special forces.

So he's extremely eloquent and he's extremely intelligent. But actually, he's found emoticons really helpful in processing other people's emotions. So when you said cat dying, it's really interesting because that's one of his examples. He actually says, you know, when people tell me, oh, their cats died and they're really sad, I'm thinking to myself, oh, you know, he said, I'll go through emotions. I say, oh, right, you know, whatever. But actually he says, you know, inside, I'm thinking, well, so what? And there's a funny story about Andy, actually, which gives you another example of the Diles

turned up and down. How you can sometimes, when you're in the presence of someone who's very high on a psychopathic spectrum, you can get a vibe. And I'll always remember this was a few years ago. In fact, when we were writing that book, Jordan, we went down to me and my other half, my wife, Elaine, we went down to see Andy and his wife at his house, spent a weekend down there. And over here in the UK, we have a sport called rugby, which is kind of similar to American football. Okay. And we have a Six Nations rugby tournament every year, which is England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, and Italy. So they will play each other. And we were going to go down to see the England Wales game. So we went into this kind of gastro pub, which is like a posh kind of pub bar,

which serves food. And this place had, the game was on at three o'clock in the afternoon, but the place had obviously opened quite early at 11. You know, Andy doesn't stand out in a crowd. really that bigger guy. He's in his mid-50s. And there's four really big Welsh guys who are about 30, 35, all with big leather jackets, all about, you know, 6-3, 6-4, leaning at the bar with pints of beer. And they'd obviously been drinking this beer. They'd obviously been in the pub since it opened. So we've arrived about 2 o'clock and they are well pissed, right? They are really, you know, kind of, as I say, they're very loud. And they're kind of, you know, Yeah, they're swearing their effing and blinding, you know, fuck this, whatever, you know.

And that's fine. No, we're not prudes, but there's women and children around, right? So there's a time and a place. So Andy said to me, he said, right, Kev, he said, you go and get the drinks and I'll go and get the food. Now, you kind of have to envisage this, Jordan. The bar is kind of like you serve as food on one side and drinks on the other, so we had to split up. But I'm not that far away from him. I'm about 10 foot away, probably a bit more about 15, 20 foot away.

So as I'm getting a drink, he's gone round to the other side of the bar where these four guys are. And I could hear him. And he said very quietly, you know, not, he wasn't showing anyone up. He said, listen, lads, listen, guys, you know, I don't want to spoil your afternoon. But he said, there's women and kids around. Do you mind just turning the volume down a little bit? And one of the guys who was leaning on the bar, he kind of stood up. And he's kind of standing quite a bit tall than Andy.

And I remember thinking, this is going to get really interesting. So I've kind of come around to Andy's side of the bar because I'm figuring, right, one and a half against four is better than one against four, right? Sure. So I've come around to Andy's side. And I'll never forget this, Jordan. And this is a real lesson in, you know, how psychopaths operate. He, as soon as the guy stood up, he kind of leant forward and he put his hand,

if you in front of me, I'd do it. He put his hand very gently on the guy's forearm. And he said, okay. He said, okay. Again, Soto Vochay, not to show anyone up. He said, I'll tell you what's going to happen. And he pointed over to the side and about, you know, four or five meters away was the door. And he said, what's going to happen is this?

You, you, you, you and you. He didn't point at them because in special forces in the UK, you use an open hand. Okay, if you point at someone, it's very, very confrontational in special forces and you could easily just get a punch in a face. So it's an old habit, you use an open hand. And he said, what's going to happen is you, you, you, you're all going to put your drinks down. And you're going to walk through that door and you're going to remain on the opposite side. of it for the duration of the game. And this was the key. His eyes, there was something in his eyes that just went, and they went

glacially cold. And he said, because if you don't, I'm going to introduce you to a level of physical violence you never knew fucking existed. I'm going to actually tell you the truth. There was a moment of quiet reflection. And all of these four guys, no word of a lie, Jordan, put their drinks down and they walked out. But here's the key. Andy then turned to, to me and he said, right, Kev, what was it? It was three burgers and a pizza. Was that what it was? It was literally tight, a hot tap going on and, or cold tap rather, going on and off.

Whereas if that had been like a normal guy, he would have been still flustered, it'd have been shaking, it'd have been red face, but it was a switch that went on and off. Wow. And it's really interesting. So I was, in fact, me and him were going to do a study on that because obviously I was fascinated to know whether you actually really needed to be able to dismantle those guys or whether it's possible to fake it and still have that kind of, you know, like we were saying, the head of a pack, you know, a pack animals is the one that can convince guys not to fight. Sure. I've got no

doubt whatsoever that Andy as a trained killer in special forces would have been able to dismantle those guys where they stood. Yeah. But I was wondering, well, can any of us do this? You know, so I'm not sure of the answer. I think probably you do have to do it. But what happened was we were going to run a study with an acting college where over here in the UK, we were going to get method actors to method act their way into a psychopathic mindset and then, you know, give them various tasks to do. I won't give too much away now because we're still going to do that study.

COVID got in the way, unfortunately, as he did in many things. So ask me in a year's time, mate, and I'll be able to tell you the answer, whether we're able to fake that or whether you do need to be the genuine article. It just seems like a really dangerous thing to fake if you can't defend yourself against these four guys because defending yourself against four anybody is going to be hard. Four big drunk dudes is really hard even for a trained killer. So you have to have some way that you think I'm going to be able to finish this if I started. Well, absolutely.

It's a bit like poker. It's a bit like going all in in poker and then someone says, I'll see you and you've got nothing. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of, that's pretty embarrassing really, isn't it? You probably, every time you say something, then people are going to see you all the time. You're a busted flush, you know. So you're absolutely right. I think that's the, I think you need the genuine, deeply ingrained confidence to know that you could do it.

Because I think that there is, that's what comes out. There's a vibe that comes out. Interestingly, the eyes is something which I've seen, and it's documented in the psychopathy literature, when I said Andy's eyes went ice cold and glacial. you do see that in psychopaths, and it's very interesting that you get the Hollywood depiction of the cold-blooded, staring-eyed killer. And that's something, I mean, Hollywood obviously in netball trials of psychopaths over the years can sometimes be pretty gratuitous and caricature, but that's something that there is quite an

element of truth in. But there's a reason for that. Psychopaths appear to have staring eyes, but they don't really. And the reason for that is because we were talking earlier about psychopaths having the anxiety dials turned down, so they're not as anxious as the rest of us. Now, the rate at which we blink is an index of how anxious we are, right? So if you're blinking a lot, then you actually a lot of the time you're going to be anxious. And the famous case was, I think it was Bill Clinton when he was on television denying the Monica Lewinsky affair. I think his blink rate went up

something like 300%, obviously, because he was fabricated. And why does it go up when you're saying lies because when you're telling a lie, you're more anxious about being found out, and so you're going to be blinking more, right? So it's almost like, going back to poker, it's almost like a tell, right? But because psychopaths aren't anxious, they're not going to blink as much as the rest of us. So psychopaths generally tend to blink a little bit, I don't know, two or three or four times less in the course of a minute, don't know what the exact figure is, than normal people. And of course, that gives the impression.

If you're talking to someone, they're not blinking as much, it gives the impression of staring eyes. So there you go. Hollywood, there is something behind the Hollywood stereotype of the psychopath with staring eyes. We've got a preview trailer of our interview with Dr. James Fallon on how psychopath brains function differently from the rest of us and why psychopaths thrive in modern society. I'm a neuroscientist since about 1989. I've studied the brain imaging scans of killers, serial killers, really bad murders. And you should did one. or two a year for many years. And then in 2005, 2006, I got set a ton of them. And I analyzed them. I said, oh, my God, there's a pattern. So I saw this pattern that nobody had ever described.

But at the same time, we were doing a clinical study on the genetics of Alzheimer's disease. And we had all the Alzheimer's patients we needed. So we needed normals, just normal controls. And so I asked my family, that was kind of my first mistake. I said, look, guys, you want to all get in. I have my brothers, my wife. I said, we'll test you. And the idea being that on my side of the family, there was no Alzheimer's at all. So we did it. And the two technicians walked into my office. And on my right side, I piled all these murderers, brain scans.

And they handed me the pile of my family scans. And they were covered up so I couldn't see the names. And so I went through, I went through one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I was really relieved that they looked at the first pass, normal. And then I got to the last scan and it looked at it. I said, okay, guys. They said, this is very funny. You kid around with each other, right?

And I said, okay, you switched him. You took one of the worst psychopaths from this pile of murders, and you switched it into my family, ha, ha, ha. And they go, no, it's part of your family. I said, you've got to be kidding. I said, this guy shouldn't be walking around in open society. It's probably a very dangerous person. So I had to tear back the covering on the name of it.

And there was my name. For more with Dr. James Fallon, including how to spot a psychopath in the wild, check out episode 28 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. That's it for part one, part two in a couple days, transcripts in the show notes, videos on YouTube, advertisers, deals, discount codes, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I said it once, but I'll say it again,

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