The Jordan Harbinger Show - 819: Faith over Flings: A Closeted Conundrum | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

As a gay man of faith, you've made the decision to remain closeted and celibate according to your personal beliefs. But attention from a younger, attractive colleague lured you down a temporary path of temptation from which you've mostly recovered — though a few lurid lapses leave doubts lingering that you can separate the friendship you value with this person from the physical urges you have when you're around him. What should you do? We'll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: As a gay man of faith who's chosen to remain closeted and celibate, can you maintain a platonic friendship with the young man who's tempted you toward physical intimacy on more than a few occasions? The founders of your company regularly write shoddy, misspelled, grammatically primitive emails to clients. How can you address this diplomatically before they drive all business away to your more competent competitors? You hoped that co-owning a cottage with your mother and sister would bring you closer together, but it seems to have only complicated your relationship with them. How can you exit the situation gracefully? Your significant other is addicted to online gambling, and uses your debit and credit cards to fund this addiction. Is it possible to put a stop to this — and maybe salvage the relationship — before you go completely broke? [Thanks to Haesue Jo, Head of Clinical Support at BetterHelp, for helping us with this one!] How do you handle public criticism on social media from a well-known person in your industry who dislikes you? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/819 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the meticulously applied plastic sheet protecting this delicate screen of life advice. Gabriel Mizrahi, not a single fingerprint under there, Gabe. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills are the world's most fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works

and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. This week, we had Matt Simon on microplastics in the environment. Now, it's crazy. We know there's plastic out there, right? but it is crazy how much plastic there is, where it is, how it gets into our bodies.

Yeah, you heard me. We're eating that stuff, breathing it in. The numbers will blow your mind. It's just a really interesting topic. It's not totally hopeless. It seems hopeless, but it's not. Matt Simon, a really interesting episode. Go ahead and check that one out yet if you haven't.

There was no episode yesterday. That was not an accident. We're giving people a little breakskey. Make sure you've had a look and listen to everything we created for you here this week. As always, we've got fun ones. We've got doozies. And I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Just adds up the first question deals with some pretty intense material about adult sexual relationships. So just keep that in mind before you listen. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 37-year-old gay male who is choosing to set those desires aside for my relationship with Christ. I used to believe that changing my sexuality might be possible and even found myself in a marriage with an amazing woman. but it fell apart in spectacular fashion. Now I'm content to live for God without a romantic relationship. I know how you feel about this, but I ask that you stick with me here.

All right, fair enough. I hear you. Several years ago, I met a student. Let's call him Sean, during his freshman orientation at the university where I work. We became friends and bonded over shared interests, and I like to think I was a bit of a mentor because I successfully navigated being a first-generation black male at a small, rural, predominantly white institution. He's very attractive, but I never sought out a sexual relationship with him.

Then one day, he made a move, and I was weak, and thus began a months-long sexual relationship. Sean often left me feeling used, because he was so selfish in bed, but I suffered through it because the attention from a handsome younger man was thrilling, and without the sex, we did still have a nice friendship. One day, I asked him what he liked about being with me, and all he could say was, you feel good. Nothing was worth sacrificing my beliefs, especially that, so I broke it off. A few months later, he asked for a meeting in my office to get some advice on his studies and career. After a little while, he pulled his penis out and walked over to my desk.

You can guess what happened next. He was satisfied, thanked me, and left. It was all so quick. I told him this could never happen again. A few months later, Sean graduated. He got a summer job with the university, and they put him up in a historic mansion that the university owns. He asked if I wanted to come over and see it. I actually did, because I had been there once 20 years ago, and I wanted to see the improvements they had made.

Okay. I'm sure you wanted to see all the improvements, surreal architecture aficionado, aren't you? I want to see those beams. I want to grab a hold of a column or two. Show me the pillars. Yeah, exactly. Come on, man. Okay.

When I got there, things started innocently enough. Later, we were sitting on a futon in his room when he reached over and began to kiss me passionately. I told him I didn't want this, but he replied, yes, you do. The thing is, I really didn't want it. I had worked 13 hours that day. I was tired and in desperate need of a shower. Chris. Things escalated, and before I could come up with a convincing way to get a

to stop, he was inside of me. It was painful and uncomfortable, and I didn't enjoy it at all. When he was finished, he made a snide remark about how I'm not as tight as when we first hooked up. He then let me use his bathroom to get cleaned up, and he said, see ya, without walking me to the door. I felt violated, dirty, manipulated, and kind of ashamed that I let something happen that I really didn't want. I'm older, I'm more mature, eight inches taller, stronger, I could have given him one quick punch in the face, but I felt sort of resigned to just letting him have his way. After our last encounter, I stopped talking to Sean, and I asked him to stop calling and texting and DMing me. But now I miss our friendship.

We had so much in common, and I don't currently have a close friend I can just call and chat with, which I desperately need if I'm going to live a single life. God and I have renewed our bond, and perhaps now that Sean and I are separated by hundreds of miles, our friendship could stay a friendship. Is it worth salvaging a valuable friendship by working through all this other drama that burn the friendship to ashes? Signed, missing my friend, a godsend till the bitter end, although I can't defend what he did in the end. Wow, that one got long.

Okay, wow. This is quite a story, my man. I want to thank you for being so open with us. I am sure that this is not easy to talk about. And I really admire your willingness to explore all of this and to invite us into your life. I definitely appreciate that. Yeah.

So, Gabe, my mind is racing. I want to go in like six different directions. And I'm not even sure which one to start with. I'm having the exact same feeling. There's just so much going on in this letter. I know he doesn't want to talk about the fact that he's denying his sexuality or at least choosing not to own it. he's choosing to live for God, and that's fine, I can accept that.

But this whole story, having this covert relationship with this guy being really hurt by him in a number of ways, but then still wanting him in his life, we could talk about all of that in a vacuum. But I can't help but feel that that's connected to his relationship with his orientation, his relationship with himself. Yes, it is. Absolutely. They're two sides of the same coin in a way, right?

Mm-hmm. He's decided to not live his life as a gay man for reasons that I'm sure are very meaningful to him. And yes, I can appreciate that, but he's still attracted to men, which, by the way, let's just be clear, that means he is living as a gay man. He's not pretending otherwise. He's just doing it with what sounds like a lot of conflict and a lot of shame and therefore all of the secrecy. Right. So I'm kind of back to how do we talk about this without talking about his beliefs? The fact is, despite the way Sean treated our friend here, what he's done to him, Sean still feels very important, but what our friend here is really saying is, I'm alone, I'm isolated, I don't

have a close friend I can just call and chat with. So on some level, I need this guy because who else do I have? That's exactly right. I don't mean to minimize the importance of their friendship, although that friendship is, well, it's complicated, but I hear him that Sean means a lot to him. Sure. But he means a lot because Sean offered him something that he simply cannot get anywhere else, in large part because he's closed himself off from those very experiences. That's exactly right. Sean's been a source of connection, camaraderie, comfort, validation, pleasure. He's also been a source of very real pain, but we'll get to that in a moment. And yeah, he misses that. And to be fair, I get it. If I were in his shoes, I think I would probably

long for that connection wherever I could get it to. Even if it's from somebody who also hurts you, right? Yes, that's the trade-off that he's accepting. because on some level, he feels he has no choice. He does have a choice, but given his beliefs, his values, his priorities right now, he essentially doesn't. That's right. So given all that, let's talk about Sean. You met somebody you were really drawn to, really attracted to, at a time when you were

obviously longing for a connection. And that's perfectly normal. There is nothing wrong with that. You started a sexual relationship with this guy, and in some ways it was really gratifying and enlivening. And in other ways it was, well, not great. He was selfish in bed. He left you feeling used.

He seems to have valued you for the pleasure more than the connection. And that sucks. That didn't leave you feeling very good about yourself or the relationship. And then comes the day at the house where you just wanted to see the improvements they've made over the years. But this is where your story gets really intense. All jokes aside. Because what happened between the two of you, I don't want to keep using the word complicated, but it was complicated. A fair amount of ambiguity in this encounter.

He didn't want to hook up with him. He didn't respect that. He pushed you to, you relented. Yeah, you could have resisted harder, but you didn't. And I want to come back to that in a second. It was painful, physically, clearly, but also emotionally. He treated you really poorly afterward by any standard. He said a hurtful thing.

He dismissed you. And then he left you with some very difficult feelings. Sadness, regret, shame. What happened that day, that was not okay. And I am so sorry you went through that. I really am. And I think a lot of people are probably like, oh, what's the big deal? If we were talking about a man and a woman, let's just highlight that this would be very different for everyone.

So I want to highlight that it's not really that different at all. So now we're in some new territory here. Right. And I want to be very thoughtful about this. I'm not trying to tell you what this experience was or what it meant. This is your life. You're going to have to process this in your own way and decide what to take away from it. But I think it's fair to say that there was an aspect of this encounter that was not entirely

consensual. Now, we don't know how clearly or explicitly you tried to say you didn't want to have sex with Sean. But when Sean said, yes, you do, I can't quite tell what the subtext of that was. I don't quite know how much he actually forced you to keep going. You say things escalated before you could come up with a convincing way to get him to stop, which might mean that Sean didn't fully understand what you did and didn't want, or it might mean that you gave him the impression that deep down, you really did want to hook up, like I said, very ambiguous. And that's what makes encounters like this very confusing. And between men, like I sort of touched on earlier, I think it can get even more confusing because the power dynamics look different from the ones between men and women traditionally. It can be hard

for a man to look at a difficult encounter and say, yeah, I was assaulted. That was traumatic. That was wrong. There's a lot of ego wrapped up in this experience for a lot of guys. And also, like you said, you're bigger. You should have done something. I mean, this is all the same stuff that women sort of come about, but it's maybe the lines are more clear because it's more established. The shame you feel, you're older, taller, stronger, that you could have fought back more. I mean, it's just a very normal feeling to have. I'm really glad you brought that up, Jordan, because that is almost verbatim what one of our other listeners said in a very similar story to this one. So you remember the hitchhiker who had been

sexually assaulted by a man in a car on that late night home. Yeah. And he couldn't bring himself to tell his wife about it for this exact reason. Right, that's right. I did forget about that, but that's the same situation, very similar. We can link to that episode in the show notes. I really encourage you to listen to that because we went into a lot of detail about why it can be so hard to fight back when you're attacked like this and just how that psychology operates, especially in men.

Yeah, that's a good point. Very different stories, but a lot of the feelings are the same, yes. But look, in your heart, you knew you didn't want to have sex with this guy and however you did or did not communicate that, that is still. a very meaningful fact. It's painful. And I'm sure it's also confusing because you walked away from that encounter feeling by your own description violated, violated, ashamed, and yet you still want to be close with this guy. Right. And that conflict, this feeling of being violated and mistreated by somebody, but then maybe overlooking some of that behavior and still longing to be in their

life, there is so much going on in that experience. And I think that speaks, first of all, to Sean. Look, I'm sure he's a decent young man in a lot of ways, but he's clearly also wrestling with some difficult stuff himself, and who knows what that is? Maybe he even has some of his own shame around his orientation, or, I don't know, complex feelings about the relationship with you. All I know is this. You don't treat someone like this if you are not in pain yourself. But also, what he did, what he said, absolutely not okay. But this conflict of yours also speaks to why you were drawn to this guy, why you're still drawn to him. That's where your side of the equation does kick in, because you were obviously getting something from this relationship.

You sought this guy out or allowed him to seek you out for a reason, and your patterns interacted with his patterns to create all of these moments and these feelings. And listen, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. What happened at the house that day was not your fault. Sean absolutely should have listened to you. He should. should have respected your boundaries, and yes, it was ambiguous. But the fact is, he was not very attuned to you, and he definitely was not respectful of you. But that can be true, and we can appreciate why it was difficult for you to tell him what you really wanted. Because how you responded in that moment or didn't respond, that says a lot. It contains a lot of important information about your needs,

about your boundaries, about your ability to hold them, about your neurobiology, which, by the way, is largely out of your control. We talk about that on the hitchhiker episode too. And also information about all of the choices that led you to the house that day. That's exactly right, Gabe. What happened that day wasn't his fault, but this entire relationship, what he decides to take away from it, that is his responsibility. So here's how I would move through this. First of all, I would absolutely maintain this boundary that you've drawn with Sean. It's extremely important that you do so. I know you miss your friendship with him, but the fact is this is not a healthy relationship

for you right now especially. You deserve better, you need better, and even if you could somehow salvage your friendship, there'll be this injury between you. And I just don't know how a true friendship can operate with that in the picture. I also, I feel very strongly that you need to talk about what happened to you with a professional. You have a lot to unpack and explore here the day at the house, of course, but also just the whole relationship with Sean, your orientation, your history, your faith, your relationships in general. I think you could really use that support.

And I feel that's even more important, given how isolated you are right now. You said it the best. You don't currently have a close friend you can chat with, which you desperately need, and I agree with you completely, but that person, that isn't Sean. That person to start with should be a therapist who can be there for you in the way that you really need right now. Could not agree more. And listen, I know you've made up your mind about choosing God over your orientation, and we've tried hard to respect that.

And obviously, that is absolutely your choice. But I do want to say this. When you get into therapy, please bring this up. Tell them what it's been like coming to terms with your orientation. that chapter when you were trying to change it, deciding to give it up for your religion, a good therapist is not going to try to change your mind. What they will do is invite you to get in touch with all of these different parts of yourself and hopefully bring more curiosity to them and more compassion to them,

help you figure out who you are. And yes, my hope, personally, is that that leads you to a less shameful, more authentic life. But even if you stick with this path, your therapist can help you sort through all of the experiences again that have brought you to this point, and that is so important. Also, last thing I'll say about this, I would really encourage you to seek out stories from people who are gay and belong to a religion, and see if there's another lens on your orientation as a Christian. Again, really not trying to convince you of my point of view here, but to be totally candid, it makes me very sad that you feel like you can't be out and have a relationship

with God. I'm not here to take your religion away from you. I'm not here to tell you what to believe at all. I just want to invite you to open up your aperture a little bit and to consider what this relationship to God might be doing for you and how it could be functioning as a way to avoid or cope with some difficult feelings about your identity. And that's all I'll say about that. And I just, yeah, thank you for staying open to that idea. Well said, Gabe, I obviously agree. This is his journey. He has to figure this out. But I'm always a big fan of listening to stories from people who have walked a similar path. And there are tons of them on Reddit, Twitter, podcast.

There's a whole world of people in your shoes. And their stories could be really comforting and helpful to you right now, especially. So, hey, look, I'm really sorry this happened to you, man. What you've been through is extremely intense in so many ways. But it's brought you to a really important point where you can look at this relationship and the wonderful need that it laid bare, which is your desire for love and connection in your life. and you can ask yourself, what is this experience here to teach me?

If you follow that question earnestly, openly, and with the right support, it's going to lead you to the right place. I promise you that. So that's my wish for you, man. We're sending you a big hug, and we're wishing you all the best on this journey. You know what? You won't have to give up for the Lord, Gabriel,

the amazing products and services that support this show. In his name, we play the following ads. Thank you so much for listening. and supporting the show. Your support of the advertisers is what keeps the lights on around here. All the deals, all the discount codes, all the ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor, any promo code using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a registered nurse, and I recently started working as a client

care coordinator for a very small company that provides recovery services to people struggling with substance abuse and mental health diagnoses. They offer sober coaching, case management, treatment placement, and intervention services. I only work closely with three coworkers. We work remotely, so all communication is via phone, text, and email. One of my coworkers is very competent, professional, helpful, but the other two, who are also the founders of the company, they're a complete mess. They're both disorganized and scattered, to say the least. Their work habits are inefficient, and they're constantly bumping into each other. They're terrible communicators, and have absolutely no concept of writing appropriately in a professional

setting. Their emails are grammatically incorrect, have multiple spelling errors, and are so difficult to follow that I often have to read them multiple times. They do not write in complete sentences and send fragments of scattered thoughts that are clearly thrown together hastily. The most concerning part is that these emails are not only internal communications. Many are going out to clients, families, doctors, therapists, and referral sources. I feel it makes the whole company look disorganized and unprofessional, and it makes both of them look unintelligent. But they're my direct superiors, so I feel that I can't criticize them outright.

Meanwhile, I take time to write professional emails, spell check, and use proper grants. I feel that it's important that our customers, who, by the way, are spending tens of thousands of dollars on their treatment, feel they're getting competent and diligent care. Is there any way to address this with my colleagues? Signed, wincing in dismay at these disastrous communiques. Ooh, yeah, this is a tricky one. You're 100% right. Communication is everything.

And if these guys are sending out dumpster fire emails, it does reflect poorly on the brand. It does make it harder to work as well as possible. with other people inside and outside of the company. And it's not just optics. This is about how they relate to their patients and their colleagues and how they represent themselves to the outside world. But to your point, yeah, I mean, it's delicate because these guys are the founders, they're your bosses,

that's not going to change. There are probably some sensitive politics at play. So if you have any hopes of changing this, here's what I'd do. First off, I would try to find as many specific instances is possible where your boss's emails created a problem, not just some like, hey, you can't spell there, there, and there. You've got to figure this out.

For example, you might find where a client failed to find the care they needed, or somebody didn't understand the update on their family member's recovery and got upset about it, or a doctor missed a referral, or a misdiagnosed someone, or a therapist had to ask six times for clarification about a patient's history, which wasted a bunch of time, or the founder's butt heads, and there were three unnecessary meetings to untangle the mess. Document these problems for yourself and try to capture what the impact was. Did they lose time? Did they incur additional expenses?

Did they compromise patient care? Was there a hit to your company's brand? Maybe there was a hit to employee morale, whatever. If you can put a number on those impacts, even better, something quantifiable. Then I would find time to sit down with these guys and share what you've learned with them. you might have to wait for just the right moment so you catch them when they have time and patience to really listen and they're the most receptive to your ideas. Maybe you throw a whiskey or two in them at the company happy hour before you bring this up.

Whatever's going to lubricate the situation. But regardless of when you do this, the message is basically this. I really love working for this company. I feel very lucky to be a part of a practice that has such a big impact on people's lives. And if it's cool, I wanted to share an observation that I've had recently, an idea for how we can do what we do even better. And if this isn't something you're interested in, totally fine. You're the boss, you lead here, but if you see where I'm coming from,

then I would love to work together to figure this out. And then you tell them about their emails. I would obviously do this very gently, very respectfully, so they don't feel attacked or belittled or criticized. I would come at this from a place of passion and love. So maybe you say, look, I know how hard it is to give every single email you're all. We have so many patients, so many stakeholders. It's a lot to keep up with.

So, hey, I completely understand why it's easier to just fire off a quick response. But what I'm noticing is that these emails, they often end up causing us more work. They take up more time. And I worry that they're starting to hurt our amazing brand. Because our patients, they're spending tens of thousands of dollars on their treatment, as you know, and I'm sure you'd agree that they want to feel that they're getting competent and diligent care. And our emails to them, those are wonderful.

of the main way is that they experience that care. Which, by the way, I think that's so important because these guys might not even realize that, you know? Like, I get the sense that they don't think of their emails as part of their product. Right. And that's an easy sort of rut to fall into. They just don't get how important good communication is. It's not just a nice to have. It is their brand. There's obviously a little bit of a lack of self-awareness here where it's just like, I'm going to type this random thing from the toilet. And it's like, well, okay, but 30 people have to read that and decipher your mindset in this moment. But anyway, that's when you hit them with the specific examples so they can see, you know,

oh, wow, okay, when I respond to people like this, it's actually coming across this way. It's creating these ripple effects that I don't even know about because, again, I'm firing this off at a red light and not thinking about it. And that'll also make it a lot harder for them to be mad at you because you're not saying, hey, you guys are a disorganized mess. You're just presenting them with evidence that things could be better with a frankly minimal input on their part. And you're doing it in the spirit of, hey, I care about you, I care about the company, and I take you seriously enough to share this important feedback. So that is how I would

approach this. You have to shift this from being a personal criticism to being a concrete business problem with a clear solution. And I would be prepared to teach them how to do this, which would be really awesome for all of you. And it'll make them see how valuable you are too, which frankly is a nice side effect. And if they don't respond to you, well, or if they seem to get it, but then they don't want to change, then you'll have to decide whether to press the issue or just let it go. The ball's going to be in their court at that point. They're the bosses. But the more you encourage them, the more you empower them, the more you educate them about this, the more likely it is that they're going to take the feedback. And if they do,

I would show them the result. Glowing patient reviews, relieved family members, helpful therapists, so they get some positive reinforcement too. And I love that you're on to this. They're lucky to have you. I think anyone would be, and good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line, unlike the bosses from question two. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through,

any big decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on life, love, work, what to do if your children are living in a house with a convicted sex offender and the system won't intervene. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday atjordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email

anonymous and legible. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. A couple years ago, I purchased a family cottage with my mother and sister. While I set a clear boundary at the outset that I would not be spending my weekends renovating the place, I had just finished a year-long renovation at my own house, and everyone agreed to it. There seems to be some resentment on their part that I'm not contributing as much time and work

as they'd like me to, although I have done a lot more than I originally would. wanted. For example, I managed the entire kitchen renovation by myself. My sister's husband is a contractor, and they decided to take on a number of projects without consulting me. I'm fine with that, of course, but then doing all this work is creating an expectation that I will too. A few weeks ago, I raised the possibility of selling them my share in the cottage with the thought that our relationship was much more important to me. Then we found some solutions, and everything seemed to be going better. Then, a few days ago, my sister told me that she'd like to either buy my share or have me buy her out. The following day, in a very confrontational conversation, my mother

basically told me she would rather share the cottage with my sister than with me. This leads me to think that they've made a decision together, and I'm out. Exacerbating this whole situation is the fact that my mother and sister have always been closer with each other than with me. I was always closer to my dad, who's now in a care home with advanced dementia. This is making me miss him so much more, as I know this wouldn't be happening if he were well. On top of all that, I don't think my sister is thinking clearly at the moment.

She's a high school teacher and had a shooting scare at her school recently and says she has PTSD. But when I suggested putting this conversation on hold until she was feeling better, she got angry and insisted we deal with this now. My instinct is to just keep things business like, negotiate a fair price and lick my wounds. But I'm hurt, and I'm afraid my relationship with them is irreparably damaged.

How do I exit this situation gracefully? Signed, sussing out these mechanics while I renovate my family dynamics. Ah, yeah, this is tough. I'm sorry the cottage played out this way. It's a good idea in theory, but this is why people say don't do business with family. Because the wires can get crossed and family dynamics creep in and a relatively manageable conflict can balloon into a family crisis, especially if communication isn't the best. That said, I'm sure you had good reasons for buying the cottage. You did set that

boundary at the outset, and that's an absolutely fair way to say, I want to be very clear about what the expectations are so we don't run into problems. And if that's going to be an issue, I want you to know that now. That was very responsible of you, very smart. But it sounds like maybe your family didn't fully understand that boundary, nor did they respect it once you got into the cottage. Or, to be fair, maybe you backing down from it by doing the kitchen renovation after you said you wouldn't. Maybe that sent them some sort of signal that you were able to do more work, not that that should change the entire terms of your agreement, in my opinion, but whatever. I mean, look, if there's any validity to that, that would be a good thing for you to look at,

because sometimes these small decisions can speak volumes, and they contribute to these misunderstandings in ways that we just don't even realize. or maybe your sister and brother-in-law doing all this work has made them feel resentful because they bit off more than they can chew and now it's a them problem, not a you problem, in which case you have to learn how to insulate yourself a little bit more from their feelings and your sister wanting to take it out on you for whatever reason. All that said, though, I do think the real issue here is that this cottage is activating much older wounds.

Your mom and sister have always been closer with each other than with you, which you, you know, you mentioned. And so when they ask you if they can buy you out or when your mom says she'd rather share the cottage with your sister, which, by the, that's a hurtful thing to hear. I'm not saying that it isn't. That's not just an injury now during the phone conversation.

That's a wound that I'm sure goes all the way back to childhood. You're probably thinking, and that's why Marianne got dance lessons, and I couldn't ride horses, even though they were the same price, and you said it was to it. Like, who the hell knows, right? Meanwhile, you are always closer with your dad.

He's not involved in the house. He's fading away. You don't have the ally you used to have in moments like this. You're outnumbered. You're alone. You're grieving. I mean, that's very painful, too, frankly. And speaking of your dad, I am so sorry to hear about the dementia.

That is a really difficult thing to watch. And I'm sure it would be painful even if this whole cottage thing were not happening. You're losing your dad. You miss your dad. That's really intense. And I am just on a personal level, very sorry that it's happening. All that to say, this isn't ultimately about the cottage or the renovations or who owns, But it's about what this cottage represents to you and how it's dredging up these very old feelings with these sort of subterranean conflict.

I think it's actually kind of fascinating. Sorry, it's at your expense. It is very fascinating. The house isn't just the house, right? It's a metaphor. It's her house is her childhood, really. And in a way, it's not a metaphor. It's actually just, it is her childhood being recreated in a sense.

So you have a few options here. Option one, you buy them out of the cottage. and then the cottage is yours, but then you own this very charged house, and I don't know, you might have some feelings about that. I would ask yourself if you really want to own the cottage at this point, and hey, maybe you do, but also maybe you don't. But just get clear on that before you cave to that specific offer. Yeah, it would be hard for me to curl up in front of that fire knowing my mom would have rather enjoyed it with my sister. Right. Or who knows, maybe she'll enjoy it more knowing she got to keep it and she doesn't have to share it with these two people who don't even want her there.

True, true. Also, I can imagine her just sitting down and listen to the sound of that crackling fire. And what is that sound I hear? Is that the sound of absolutely nobody bitching about the countertops in the kitchen? Enjoy your dance lessons, Marianne. Sips wine. Sips are hot toddy in victory. I like it.

Mmm, this is delicious. How's sitting at home watching Netflix? Yeah, in the city. I love it. I mean, I could see that being very fun, actually. So yeah, it's up to her, which is also interesting. Option two, you sell them your stake, you get out of this painful situation. The upside there is you make a little money, hopefully. It's not your problem anymore. And the house will not be an ongoing source of pain for you. Also totally fair. And honestly, maybe the best outcome. But either way, your idea to keep things as business-like as possible with your mom and sister right now,

I do think that's right. Nothing wrong with getting a fair price, keeping your head, licking your wounds, and just kind of quietly and peacefully moving on. Yeah, honestly, that's my favorite option. Because she went into this project with high hopes and good intentions, and it turned out to be a lot more difficult than she thought. Not entirely her fault. Right. It had to happen like this. Yeah. But it's probably an unnecessary source of suffering at this point. So, I mean, why hang on to it? Yeah, exactly. But whatever you end up doing, I do hope you get to address some of these deeper wounds regardless. or at least make peace with them. To me, that's what your story is really about, how this house has laid bare some very difficult truths

that might have been hidden or justified a way about you and your sister and the whole family's dynamic. And now you have to decide what to do with those. I agree completely. It's kind of a theme on today's episode, huh? Super interesting. Yeah, sure is. That's right.

So I'm sorry you might not get to enjoy your Taylor Swift Cottage Corps fantasy in this house, but hey, maybe you got something better, a little return on your investment, a ton of personal growth, and the truth, as hard as it is to accept, which incidentally also kind of sounds like a Taylor Swift album. We're sending you, your dad, and your whole family, our best thoughts. And Gabe, I just thought of this, but what if she says, you know, maybe I will buy your share out to the sister, and the sister comes up with a price, and she goes, okay, you know, let me think about that. And then, like, a few days later, you're like,

actually, why don't you buy me out at that price? Because she's going to pick a higher price when it's you giving her money. But if you let her pick the price, let it settle in and then you say, why don't you give me that amount, she has to then argue against why that's fair. Or she has to pay you that amount. Clever. I mean, look, she's not locked into it. I think she's probably going to be like, actually, it's too much. But you get to lock it all in in writing and be like, so who's being unreasonable? When I was going to give you money, it was $100,000. Now that it's you giving me money it's 60 is that fair and then she has to argue against herself so i wouldn't uh you know go ahead and learn some negotiation tactics and maybe like i said get return on your investment after all

the kitchen's renovated and someone's husband sure did a lot of work on this house i think the value's gone up since you bought it also a very tailor swifty an approach to this problem exactly yeah like oh you know your husband did do a bunch of work on this so therefore it's worth more you're going to have to pay for that. Oh, man. You know what else you won't want to share with your family? The products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found the advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. They're the ones who keep the lights on around here. All the discounts, all the ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com

slash deals. You can also search for any Feedback Friday question, answer, or any promo code using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Jordan Harbinger.com slash AI. It's, you can't miss it. Thanks so much for supporting those who support us. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

This next segment is sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks to Hesu Joe, head of clinical operations over at BetterHelp. All right, Gabe, take it away. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my girlfriend who lives with me is a gambling addict. She's also an alcoholic and a narcissist prone to fits of rage. She uses an online gaming platform on her iPhone and plays constantly,

literally. If she's awake, she's playing. She doesn't work other than doing small peer-to-peer jobs in the neighborhood. She uses my debit and credit cards to fund her addiction, and I'm now going broke. Last week, I couldn't even pay the $60 annual fee for my Costco membership, so I couldn't pick up my vision prescription. I've tried canceling my cards, but she goes into my wallet while I'm sleeping and puts them into her Apple wallet. I closed my debit card, but she told me that when the bank issued a new card, it immediately appeared in her Apple wallet. I contacted my bank and my credit card company,

but they told me they cannot prevent merchants from charging my account. All they can do is close my account, which also won't work since she'll get the new card eventually, or dispute the closure as some kind of fraud. I could contact the online gaming company, but I don't trust them either. I've also considered canceling our gym membership, and every other privilege I've worked hard to provide. That would punish me as well, but it might send a message.

I want to avoid reporting the gambling charges as fraud, since that will get my girlfriend in trouble, and I really, really do not want the police to get involved. When I confront her about all this, she gaslights me and tells me that I'm the one taking her money. She complains about how I'm weak and don't negotiate high enough raises at work and says that that's why we're always broke.

Wow. I feel that talking to her is pointless. I've considered moving out to let her know that I'm serious that she has to cut out the gambling. She can't stand being alone, so that might be an option. How can I get my girlfriend to stop gambling? How do I handle this, financially and emotionally? Can this relationship still work? Signed, circling the drain, and trying to make it rain while my girlfriend keeps playing.

Ooh, you rhymed rain with playing. I didn't think you were going to be able to do that. All right. Well, this is quite the relationship in many ways. I'm very sorry that your girlfriend has fallen into what sounds like an extremely intense gambling addiction and that her addiction has affected you so profoundly. It actually sounds like you guys are caught in a super toxic and confusing cycle. Communication is really broken down and you're not sure how to get your girlfriend to change

if she can change anyway, which is a very sad place to be. Gabe, I got to say it's fascinating that things have gotten to a point where he can't even afford to pay for cost co to go get his glasses or his glasses. contact or whatever. I mean, there's a metaphor in there somewhere, right? Like, he literally can't see the situation clearly, and neither can she. Right. They're both kind of blind. It's weirdly poetic. We wanted to consult with an expert on your question, so we spoke with Hesu Joe, licensed marriage and family therapist, and head of clinical operations at Better Help, the world's largest online therapy service. You've heard of them. They sponsor the show. And the first thing

Hesu said was, as hard as this is to come to terms with, you cannot get your girlfriend to stop gambling. Not by yourself anyway. If she's going to get better, she has to want to get better. She has to take the necessary steps to seek out the support that she needs. Meetings, treatment, therapy, whatever it is, she's got to do that on her own. You can guide, you can support, you can control, or whatever, but she's got to drive here. Well, it's not going to be easy, given how far your girlfriend's addiction has gone. And it might take even more pain and loss until she hits rock bottom and goes, oh, wow, I'm in trouble.

I need help. Because as Hesu put it to us, your girlfriend's addiction, any addiction, really? It's fulfilling some kind of function. And that function is almost certainly to cope with some form of unresolved trauma, whatever that might be for her. The gambling, well, first of all, is probably releasing a ton of dopamine. It's giving her some relief from her rage or anxiety. It's a way to ward off the pain.

So she's numbing, basically. And as long as she's fixated on Jackpotland app or whatever, hearing the dings and getting the dopamine hits, she's not having to feel her feelings and deal with her stuff. And if that's what she needs to feel regulated, to feel okay, then Hesu said that it's going to be pretty difficult to turn to her and say, okay, no more games, I'm taking that away from you, that probably wouldn't just be unpleasant to your girlfriend.

It would probably be terrifying. It would be panic-inducing. It would be very painful, which actually explains a lot of her behavior. Because as strange as it sounds, this is how she's, holding it all together. And on that side of the equation, I do have some compassion for her. I mean, she's an addict. That said, Hesu also pointed out something really important, which is that your way of helping so far, I know it comes from a good place, but you might also be enabling her addiction to some degree. Because you walking on eggshells around your girlfriend, you not taking a harder

stance with your finances, and the fact that you're sticking around while all of this continues, I know you're trying to keep things on an even keel, which is very common with the partners of addicts, by the way, but you're also, you're helping feed her addiction. You're doing that by co-creating the conditions for the addiction to continue. And why you're doing that, that's actually a really good question for you to ask yourself. Because our sense here in Hesu's too is that you are terrified of drawing a harder boundary here, whether that's telling your girlfriend that she needs to stop gambling and seek help, or just cutting her off financially or finally leaving this relationship.

And I'm guessing that that's because you're afraid of how she's going to react. And like you said, she's prone to fits of rage and that is very intense. Or maybe you're afraid of losing the relationship such as it is. But this is the question that you need to ask. Because yes, your girlfriend's addiction is the primary problem here, but it just doesn't continue without your involvement and your financial support. Right, without your tacit approval of her behavior. Yeah, that's exactly right, which brings us to another important piece of your story here,

which is how you and your girlfriend are communicating, or rather not communicating. You feel like talking to your girlfriend is pointless, as you put it, which, look, maybe it is. But if that's true, then the relationship is pretty much over, right? I mean, if communication will get you nowhere with her, then how do you guys move forward? But listen, if you're saying that because you don't want to talk to her, or because you haven't figured out how to talk to her, then that might be another way that you're avoiding some difficult conversations,

which, again, that means that you are co-authoring this dysfunction. You considered moving out to let her know that you're serious about cutting out the gambling. You thought about canceling her gym membership to send a message. Pretty classic avoidant moves, I would say. It sounds to me like you're finding all of these covert ways of signaling how you really feel, all these kind of passive-aggressive ways

to express your anger and to get her to change when you could just sit down with her and say, listen, here's the deal. You have an addiction. I'm not going to participate in it. If you're ready to get help, I will support you. If you're not, then I'm sorry, but I have to reassess our relationship. That is probably terrifying to think about saying, and I get it. But the fact that it's so terrifying, that partly speaks to your stuff, not just hers.

On a more practical level, the other piece you really do have, over here, you should have control over here, is your finances. And that's a bit outside Hesu's scope as a therapist, but I'm happy to take that one as Jordan and say, dude, get your house in order. You cancel your cards. She goes in your wallet while you're sleeping and adds them to her Apple wallet. Hide your wallet, man. Put it in a safe. Maybe ask yourself if you should really be in a relationship with somebody who is literally stealing from you. You can't close your account because she'll call the credit card company and say the closure was fraud, then get new cards, only put your name on them, set a passcode with the company, call them and explain your

partner as fraudulently posing as you, ask them what they can do to protect you. There are options here. You don't want to report the gambling charges as fraud. Okay, fine, that's your call, but you have to recognize that this is yet another way that you are protecting her and exposing yourself to more financial abuse. So I want to just give a bit of a reality. check here, you need to see how all these half measures, they're part of the enabling. Again, they're part of your pattern interacting with hers, as Gabe mentioned before. So Gabe, the $64,000 question, and I know everyone loves that very relevant phrase, can this relationship still work? Oh, well, I think the more accurate question is, is this relationship working at all? I don't

think it is. I think it's persisting. It's not really working, not well anyway. I think this pretty obvious, but it might be hard for you to see clearly, so I'll just say it. You deserve better than the way you're being treated right now. You're paying the price for your partner's addiction and also the manipulation and financial destruction that come with it. It's negatively impacting your well-being, your sense of self. Something needs to change here. But Hesu had a slightly different take, which was, no one can answer this question ultimately for you. Instead, she would encourage you to think about all of the things that would need to change. in order for this relationship to work, and then decide if those changes are realistic and doable

given you and your girlfriend's current state. I think you know where Jordan and I stand on this, but this really is something you do have to answer for yourself. Agreed. So here's the path forward if things are going to change. First, your girlfriend needs to admit that she has an addiction and she has to seek help. As Hesu put it to us, you've described somebody who's classically in need of mental health support. Therapy would be the obvious. treatment. She has a lot to work through, and it would be great if she had that space, but she might also need more specific support for the gambling, namely support groups like gamblers anonymous, the help of a recovery community. And if you share that with her and she's like, no, I don't have

an addiction. This is just how I relax and you need to get a raise in a second job so we don't fight anymore. Then that'll tell you all you need to know. There's no way forward from that in my view. Not right now, anyway. But if you talk and she says, yeah, okay, I'm in trouble. I need help. Then that's great. And there might be a way forward here. Still, I would be very thoughtful about how you proceed.

And I would still encourage you to think about whether you should stay together while she addresses her addiction. But to quote, Hesu here, nobody can force another person to do something if they don't want to do it. She has to want this. She has to do the work in recovery. You can support her up to a point, but a lot of that work will, by necessity, not involve you. But look, I think you need to talk to somebody, too. You need to process everything that's come up in the relationship. You need to figure out what drew you to this partner and, most importantly, why you've stuck

around for so long. And also start talking about how you operate in relationships in general, why conflict and boundaries are so challenging for you. and what you really want out of a relationship. Because that's kind of the one big gift this relationship has served up, the opportunity to address a very interesting part of your personality, this avoidance theme. So my advice, run toward that weakness,

dig into it with a professional, figure out where it comes from, build that muscle. Because if you throw yourself into that work, this relationship might just turn out to be the experience you needed to grow in a really important way. and, frankly, to avoid this dangerous dynamic in the future. So good luck.

We're sending you our best thoughts. You can do this. And we're wishing your girlfriend the clarity and strength that she needs to get better because it might not be an easy road. This segment was sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks to Hesu Joe, head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Go to betterhelp.com slash Jordan to help support the show and get started. Hesu Joe's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience.

It's intended to be general and informational in nature. it does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Hesu's feedback is in response to a written question and therefore there are likely other unknown considerations given the limited context. Any personal opinions about a writer's life choices as well as any action-oriented device come solely from the show. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses if that's important to you. If you are your partner in crisis and uncertain about whether you can maintain safety, reach out. for support, crisis hotlines, local authorities, have a safety plan. That can be done with a therapist too. Next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, years ago, I started a blog, a podcast, and a YouTube channel about my career field. Over time, I managed to grow my audience, and now I guess you can call me an influencer in my small field. For the most part, our community is filled with incredibly kind and welcoming people, but there are five or so well-known influencers in this space, and they all seem to hate one another. They'll talk negatively.

about one another without necessarily calling people out by name, but anyone can tell with a bit of research whom they're referring to. I've managed to stay out of their crosshairs, but sure enough, one day I awoke to someone with 100,000 followers, the biggest name in my field, blasting me on Twitter. I had a phone call with this person to learn more about why they were so upset with me. They made it seem like it was a misunderstanding and I thought everything was fine, until I saw more tweets from them, spreading negativity about my content and character. I've always struggled with taking in negative anonymous comments, but I've made quite a bit of progress in that area thanks in part to your show, and episode 312 with John Tierney harnessing the power of bad. But I'm

definitely struggling with having a leader in my field despise me. I'm attending a conference soon, and he's going to be there. How do you handle public criticism from a well-known person? signed looking to last after I've been put on blast. Ugh, yeah, this online drama is so petty. It's so short-sighted. And frankly, it's just a huge waste of time for everyone involved. I'm sorry that this guy attacked you in this way. Although that probably speaks to the fact that you've developed such a great following

that he obviously sees you as a threat. That's my first instinct. So that's one bright spot in all of this. But, I mean, I know it's very exposing and scary to be attacked online, especially by somebody who's a leader. There's a big difference between a tweet from some random person who looks fake and somebody who actually has a credible voice and then just decides to point the candidate at you. I put leader in big air quotes, by the way, but whatever, any big voice in your field. So first of all, you need to draw a distinction here between legitimate criticism and baseless negativity.

If this guy had attacked you for legitimate reasons, if he had a reasonable criticism of your product, or he disagreed with the decision you made, or you guys had some kind of philosophical dispute, it would still be hurtful and kind of immature to put you on blast, but he might be making a fair point. Okay. In that case, I would say, separate the message from the messenger, see if there's anything to learn from this person, and if there's even an iota of truth to what he's saying,

stay open to that and decide what you want to do with it. But that is not what this guy was doing. This isn't public criticism. It's not an open letter to you. It's just trolling you. He's creating drama for engagement, and it's pure internet currency clout chasing BS. And it just means nothing outside of social media. He's probably just projecting his own insecurities about your success and trying to knock you

down a few pegs to build himself up. Tail is old as time. And also, because he knows that this generates tribalism and loyalty with his followers and makes them pick sides, it's just is literally the definition of toxic. So in my view, this just is not worth much of your energy. you'd be much better off channeling your time and effort into continuing to put out great content, which you're clearly already doing, and avoiding the temptation to do what these blowhards do, which is jump into the fray and fight back and contribute to this dysfunctional mess.

Also, if you don't do that, I think people in your field will notice that you are the one influencer not acting like an a-hole. And they're going to respect you for that. But look, if you need to address this publicly, either because you need to defend, yourself or because it would help your brand a little, there is a classy way to do it. You could say something like, so look, as you guys probably saw, a big name in our field dragged me recently, which really wasn't fun. He and I had a call. We seemed to resolve the misunderstanding, and then he did it again. And it's brought up an interesting question for me about how to respond to stuff like this. And because I've thought about it a lot, I've decided not to respond to

it because I find it petty and unproductive, and I think we'd all be better served by focusing on this field that we love and not tearing one another down. That's what I'm choosing to do, and that's what I want this channel to be about. Now, if you say whatever version of that that feels authentic to you, there's just no way you don't come out looking good slash better than the other guy. Also, you can always have a little bit of a laugh about this. That's another way to capitalize on the drama without feeding it. It's just really clear to me that this guy's not acting in good faith.

If you reached out to him and you were like, hey, you're pissed at me, what's up? And he's like, no, we're cool, bro. and then the next tweet is like, you can't believe it. It's just nonsense. You can even turn this into your tagline. You know, for eco-friendly artisanal product reviews and no shit-talking, follow me, whatever it is, as opposed to for eco-friendly artisanal product reviews, follow me, and also Randy Shaw is a prick. Like, some of your audience might tolerate, but deep down, they're probably just going to think it's dumb.

I guarantee you many elements of these other people's audience think it's dumb, and they're just biting their tongue. because that's what do they have to gain by telling somebody that they're acting like a piece of crap. So that's my take. Stay above the fray. What's that probably fake Mark Twain quote Gabriel? It's like when you roll around and crap with the pigs, you both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it. It's that kind of thing. Am I getting that right?

I don't know. I don't remember and I don't know who said that, but it's absolutely correct. Yeah. Here's the thing. High quality people, they're always going to respond to the more evolved personality. the people you want in your audience are going to do that. So keep that in mind and also keep in mind, this is not going to be the last time that this happens.

It is a sign of success, especially on social media. Podcasters, we seem to sort of be outside this, probably because it's so damn hard to respond to somebody. Having a beef in podcasting would just take forever. Like, oh, wait a lie, get my next episode out in a month. I'm going to show you, you know, it doesn't play out. It's the equivalent of firing at each other with muskets. Yeah, it just doesn't play out in real time

in a way that's entertaining enough. And that's how you know that this is all nonsense because it's playing out on Instagram. And as soon as you call and you're like, hey, what's the deal? It's like, uh, nothing, man, because it doesn't have a real argument. It's just pure clout chasing.

So be prepared for it. Keep reading between the lines of these dumb PR stunts. Take what's useful. Leave the rest. Double down in your content. Forget the rest. That's the only reliable strategy that's not going to take your brand

and or drive you absolutely insane. So good luck. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. you so much. Go back and check out the Matt Simon episode on microplastics if you haven't done so yet. And again, there was no episode yesterday. That's Thursday. So if you didn't see one, it's not your podcast app. Just took a little bit of a pause over here. We'll be back with a full roster of

episodes next week. If you want to know how I managed to find and book all these amazing folks for the show, it's about systems. It's about software. It's about tiny habits. Check out our six-minute networking course. That course, by the way, is free over on the think-ific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Don't kick the can down the road. Don't think you can postpone it. It's all about digging the well before you get thirsty. The drills take just a few minutes a day. Nobody's going to ask you to drive to the YMCA in park and have stale cookies with a bunch of nobody's. It's all about short baby steps that are reproducible. It's helped me a lot in my business and personal life. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. A link to the show notes for the

episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support this show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you want to search for anything, including promo codes or any question from Feedback Friday that's ever been on the show, including the answer, of course, check out our AI chatbot at Jordan Harbinger.com slash AI. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Frogerty, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with a pain psychologist that helps people manage chronic pain when all else has failed. None of us are going to escape pain. Pain is part of being human. All of us at some point, if we haven't already, are going to experience pain. Seems about time we understood it, knew how it worked, and knew what to do about it.

So I am what's called a pain psychologist, which no one has ever heard of. People say, oh, well, you must treat emotional pain. The answer to that is no. Pain is always both physical and emotional. That's what neuroscience says. And in fact, what we know is that negative emotions like stress and anxiety or depression or anger or frustration, turn up pain volume in the brain. We think and are trained that pain lives in the body, like in your back or in your knee.

It is, of course, true that things may be going wrong in your back or in your knee, but that isn't where pain lives. Pain lives in the brain. Pain does not always indicate danger. When you have chronic pain and your brain has become sensitive, small bits of non-dangerous input from the body are being interpreted incorrectly as dangerous.

You've seen that car alarm. You're looking at your window, and that car, the lights are flashing, and the horn is beeping, and you're like, bruh, No one's breaking in. You're safe. The glass isn't even broken. That's a brain on chronic pain.

So it's just so important for people with pain to know that part of what's happening for them is that their brain has become extra sensitive and it is alarming when it doesn't need to. And it can be hacked. Guess what you and I are doing today? To hear more from Dr. Rachel Zoffness about how pain works in the body and brain, check out episode 661 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time.

If you like the Jordan Harbinger Show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know

has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.