The Jordan Harbinger Show - 828: Time to Retire and Chase Closeted Desire? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

After building a successful career and family, you've come to realize you'd rather spend your remaining days in the company of men half your age rather than with your wife of 25 years. Now that it's time to retire, should you stay tepidly wed or chase all the young dudes, instead? We'll explore this and more here on Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: After building a successful career and family, you've come to realize you'd rather spend your remaining days in the company of men half your age rather than with your wife of 25 years. Now that it's time to retire, should you stay tepidly wed or chase all the young dudes, instead? Every time you land a career, some global economic catastrophe seems to send you in search of a new one. How can you future-proof yourself against financial displacement if your next chosen field once again goes kaput? How can you resolve a pet custody dispute with an unreasonable ex when your state doesn't have laws to definitively settle such matters? Since being preemptively stigmatized as a potential child molester by your brother-in-law's vindictive ex-wife, you've gone from being an uncle who takes the kids to the zoo and plays board games to the man who leaves the room when your niece enters. How do you handle this situation without punishing your daughter and niece — or running the risk of being baselessly accused of the unthinkable? You've discovered that your neighbors can hear your Zoom therapy sessions through the paper-thin wall between apartments. Should you talk to them about it? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/828 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a man whose beard this week, I can only describe as bougie yoga teacher training in Costa Rica Day 9. Gabriel Mizrahi. You know, I'm not mad about it. I think that's accurate and not entirely unwelcome. If you're a yoga trainer, you're not allowed to get mad about anything. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you've done. can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays we give advice, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form

interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. This week we had Paul Rosalie. He lives in the Amazon jungle, same place that I went to go visit a few years back. I wish I had known him then, could have hung out in the jungle. Really amazing guy. Great conversation about conservation. The Amazon jungle, crazy wildlife, poachers, illegal gold miners. Fun for me because we've both been to the jungle, the same place, in fact. I think you'll enjoy the conversation as well. Gabe, before we dive in, we got to share that hilarious email that I got from a listener this week. Can you read that for us? Sure. So the letter goes this, hey, Jordan and Gabe, my partner and I love the show. I just wanted to tell you that I recently

gave birth to our first baby on Christmas Day, and for the majority of the 24th and the morning of the 25th, I was listening to your show. It was something I could completely focus on, and every time I got interrupted, I would get so annoyed because I would miss something. So keep it up. You're helping women get through the pain of labor, signed Georgia. Well, Georgia, all I can say, first of all, 10 seconds back button, always your friend. But all I can say in addition to that is that I am honored that we could keep you company through contractions. Nothing like hearing about human organ harvesting and sex cult vagina branding to help

you push a literal human out of your body. Gabe, I'm just imagining what it was like in the delivery room that day. Like, all right, Georgia, you're eight centimeters dilated. Let's do this. No, I'm learning success strategies from a former pimp. Come back in an hour. Yeah, totally. The real Christmas miracle here is our back catalog. Yes, exactly. Exactly. The baby's kind of just a bonus, really.

Yeah, just a nice to have. Anyway, congratulations on your baby. Georgia, we're super pumped for you. And thanks for listening to the show and bringing us into literally the most intimate part of your life, I would imagine. We get letters from people saying they listen in the car, in the kitchen, sometimes in the shower before they go to bed. But I think this one really takes things to the next level. and I'm going to also pretend I've not hurt that you didn't name your baby Jordan. It's really the least you could have done, but thanks for the note anyway. All right, we've got some fun ones.

We got some doozies. I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 55-year-old scientist and executive at a health care company with a satisfying career and financial security. I've been married to my wife for 25 years, and we have two adult children who are now becoming independent. Although my wife has always been quite good at running the household, the sexual attraction between us hasn't been there for quite some time. Having achieved conventional success in career and family life, I've recently been giving some thought to what would make me happy for the rest of my life.

I feel increasingly attracted to men who are about half my age and have been fantasizing about spending more time traveling, maybe even the rest of my life, with someone I really like. but I'm torn between seeking happiness selfishly and dutifully maintaining the status quo with little joy. I feel if I don't try this new life, I will regret it on my deathbed. But ending my 25-year marriage to seek happiness with younger men is a big moral barrier for me to cross. What should I do? Signed, Chase these youths or Deny My Truth, a conundrum forsooth. Forsooth! I've never heard that one, Gabe.

What does that even mean? It basically means indeed. Oh, okay. Okay, so you're going full Shakespeare on us today with the... Yeah, I got to keep the sign-offs fresh. You know, you got to innovate. I can't just always stay the same. I hear you.

I appreciate that. Well, this is quite the conundrum forsooth, quite the midlife crisis you're going through. There's a lot going on in this question. Let's pick this apart just a little bit. Now, this is an older guy who wants to leave his wife to go travel the world with younger men. and just so I gather this straight.

And first of all, I'm assuming from your letter that you are attracted to men and women, or maybe just men, but either way, there's a pull to be with men. That's clearly a part of who you are. So when you talk about what would make you happy, I'm guessing that means a few things. One is being with men, which if you've been keeping that part of yourself hidden for a long time, which I think you might have been if you were married to a woman, I imagine that would be a profound step for you and probably a key to living more honestly and more authentically.

Another thing is just being more you in general, which means potentially ending a passionless marriage, pursuing a relationship that you do want, being in touch with all these interests that have been tucked away or ignored for a long time. And it also means, as you pointed out, doing what you love, traveling with somebody you really like. Orientation aside, that is also a profound thing.

I mean, you were pretty clear when you called your marriage the status quo with little joy. Yeah, that would be. be an issue even if you weren't into dudes. I was going to say suddenly, but I assume this is not sudden. I think you want to seek out a very different relationship, but not just with another person, but with yourself. But then there's the final variable of this happiness equation that you want to seek out that experience with men who are half your age. So, okay, let's talk about that for a second. So look, I'm not going to judge you for your preferences. You're into what you're into.

That's fine. Maybe it's not even about looks or whatever. Maybe it's all. also about the vitality and energy and, you know, possibility in a younger partner. I can understand that. But I think it's important to take a moment and really consider what exactly draws you to younger men, what you're really hoping to gain or access through these younger partners, these potential abstract partners, I should add, since you haven't found one yet. It's not like there's a guy that you're already with or whatever. Because right now, I'm gathering that you feel trapped.

You feel inauthentic or in some way. You want to travel the world, which is another sort of dreamlike escapist wish. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's escapist. And you want to do that with somebody who has all the qualities you're missing in your marriage. So there's a part of me that's wondering, like, is there an element of fantasy here, I guess is what I'm trying to say? Is there an idealized partner you have in your mind who's 28 and carefree? And they're not going to bore you with conversations about, you know, which laundry detergent to use and the deadline for your kids' college tuition payment, they just want to bang 24-7 in a beach shack in Bali. Okay.

I feel like you just nailed, like that's exactly what he's hoping will happen. Yeah, well, I get it. I mean, I don't want to go to TMI, but who doesn't want to bang in a beach shack at Bali with somebody? Fair. Yeah, I get it, yeah. And is the pull of that fantasy perhaps an expression of deficiency or a need that is much closer to home? Namely, that your marriage feels constrained, your identity feels misaligned, and you feel you need to make some major changes if you're going to live a fulfilling life. None of that is inherently wrong. I don't want to sound like I'm condemning this.

I'm just inviting you to understand what the fantasy version of your life might be trying to tell you about your current life. And I'm asking you to take a beat maybe and consider whether the life you're looking for here if that life doesn't begin by making some intense decisions about your life right now. Does that make sense, Gabe? Yeah, okay. So by that you mean like sitting down and talking to his wife? about their marriage, right?

I mean, yeah, absolutely, for starters. You got to find out what she's feeling, what she's wanting. It seems like that wasn't even in the letter, unless we just sort of chopped it for brevity, exploring where the passion and their relationship has gone, acknowledging that it has gone, whether this is still the relationship they both want, how their kids growing up has played a role in all this, whether there's a way for them to respectfully separate and move forward as co-parents and friends, hopefully with some love on that level. I mean, there's a lot to talk about here.

Yeah, there sure is. I'm with you. I suspect that he might be skipping over those conversations, maybe kind of running away from that whole stage of this transition by diving headfirst into the fantasy. And I can understand why, because I'm sure the prospect of sitting down and telling your wife, you know, so listen, honey, the last quarter century, it's been great. Thanks for giving me kids in a household and a family. But, you know, the thing is I've been looking at shirtless selfies of guys.

guys named Sledge on Grindr. And I've come to the decision that I want to live out of a suitcase in five-star hotels with one of them for the next, I don't know, three to five years. I mean, you know, until he's 30. Anyway, then we'll see what's what. It's intense. Sledge is a nice touch. And that's quite a bomb to drop, especially because, you know, he's going to be using their life savings to do it. She probably wants a vacation too. Oh, that's another whole other side of this story. But yeah, it's terrifying. This will not be an easy conversation. But it is the conversation that has to have. and before you pick up with a new partner and design a whole new life. I mean, you'll definitely have to talk to your wife before you, you know, hop on that Virgin Atlantic flight to Mekonos with one of these guys. So there's just no way around this. Yes, and it's always going to be a Virgin Atlantic flight, and it's definitely at least

making a stop over in Mekanos. Right. Just those purple and pink lights. You know what I mean? It just gets you in the vacation mood. True that. All right. So he's put, I think he's put in the cart before the horse a little bit.

Is that where you're going with this? A little bit. But, you know, that doesn't mean that this fantasy isn't. very useful to look at. Our fantasies, they're like dreams, right? They're full of interesting information. Obviously, this guy's fantasy is telling him a lot about what he really wants, so that's meaningful. But it might also be telling him what he's avoiding, and that might be even more useful for him to look at right now. Yeah, that's a good point, Gabe. I'm also curious to know more about this whole, should I seek happiness selfishly, or should I dutifully maintain the status quo

with little joy thing? It's a kind of an interesting dichotomy. He's painted here, because that's also an important part of this guy's personality. And to your point, Gabe, there might also be some avoidance buried in that conflict to not wanting to own his orientation, subsuming his own needs in this concept of duty to his wife. On the other hand, he's also, and don't even get me started, he's not even doing the duty to his wife. He's just pretending that nothing is wrong, which is not quite the same thing. That's also a very good point. I would invite him to consider what being selfish really means, because sure, it's self-interested. to break up with your wife after 25 years to be with a very different kind of partner.

Although, I don't know, I'm hesitating here. Look, I'm not sure that that's entirely a bad kind of self-interest. It just means that his wife might get very hurt in the process, which is the price you pay sometimes for, you know, living your truth. But if you look at it another way, I guess to your point, Jordan, it might also be selfish of him to stay in this passionless marriage, where he's hiding important parts of himself and kind of deceiving his wife. You could argue that he's depriving her of the chance to live a happier life, or at least a more honest one.

Again, that might be extremely painful, but it is an interesting question whether that makes him entirely bad. Well, some people listening might be going, but he is being selfish. He's selfish for lying to her about his orientation and his desires this time, all this time. And now look, the cost of being honest is way too high. It's going to blow everything up. Yeah, totally. But if that's true, what I'm trying to figure out is which part of this makes him. selfish? Is it staying in this marriage and living a lie? Is it pursuing these needs of his now? Or is it

not being in touch with these needs a lot sooner in getting this out of the way 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. I think that's something for him to figure out. But, you know, you're getting at a bigger theme here, Gabe, which is that sometimes there's a kind of healthy selfishness in life. If he can't be who he is because that would automatically be selfish, and selfish equals morally bad, then he's in a bind here. He's really in a bind here. Well, exactly.

I think where it gets tricky is when somebody else pays the price for your honesty. In this case, it's his wife and possibly his children. Right, but her feelings are not necessarily a reflection of the legitimacy of his choice.

And by that I mean, her anger, her hurt, if she is angry and hurt by all this, that's fair, that's real, it makes total sense. and it can also be true that he's attracted to dudes who are in their 20s and is allowed to live a very different life if that's what he wants to do. Also a very fair point. So I guess my last question for this guy would be, is labeling this transition as selfish and is calling this a moral barrier that you won't cross?

Is that maybe yet another way to shut down a process that might put you in touch with some new thoughts and feelings? namely a tremendous amount of guilt for hurting your wife and pulling the rug out from under your family. Right. Okay. Like I can't deal with the implications of this decision, so I'm just going to label it's selfish and wrong, and maybe that'll help me avoid all this because it becomes, it takes the option off the table. It's kind of the flip side to the fantasy, right? The fantasy is running off with these young guys. That allows him to indulge the best version of his life. And the moral barrier that he's describing, that allows him to just keep things on an even keel. not change. Both of them, in very different ways, might be allowing him to avoid what he would have to change now to live that life. Yeah, that's, that is, well, it's fascinating. So you know what I'm about to say. If you're not already there, I would highly recommend exploring all of this with a therapist, making major life transitions, exploring your identity, possibly coming out to your

entire family as a middle-aged man. I mean, that's a huge thing. And it would be great if you had some support as you navigate all of this very, very complex stuff. So good luck. I wish you the best. We're sending you and your family our best thoughts. And Gabe, I can't wait to get emails from people all over the spectrum going like, you guys are depraved satanic scum. How dare you encourage a man to blow up his family so he can live in sin with a young man. And then the next email's like, hell yeah, honey, welcome to the rainbow. Live your best life, queen, work. Yep. I'm already responding to that. How did you know? Like, that's exactly. what is in the inbox.

Because that's what a reviews are like. You're a leftist cuck. Oh, you right-wing bastard. I mean, it's like one right after the other. I love being called a cuck and a fascist in the same day. Fascist cuck. I mean, that's my AOL screen name. All right.

But listen, on a serious note, if anyone listening has gone through a major life transition like this and you want to share your story or some lessons that you've learned, we can pass those along anonymously to the guy who wrote in. Those stories, they really do help people going through something alone. we're here for it. Gabe, if we ever mentioned this on the show that we do forward people advice either anonymously or we'll connect people. I don't know if we talk about that, but a lot of people right in, they're like, I've been in the exact same situation. We routinely connect people based on that on this show. We love doing it and we're happy to do it and it's really a wonderful

way to keep, you know, keep the conversation going after the episode. So don't hesitate to send us those. We love them. Right. Regardless of genre, you don't have to be a middle-aged scientist who's going after dudes and suspenders and assless chaps. You can really just, it can be Could be anyone. It could be anyone. But Gabe, I really do wonder what these younger men are all about. You know, is he trying to recapture his younger years through these guys? Does he maybe like the idea of taking care of younger people who are, you know, universally broke?

Or is it just about those tight abs? Okay. Yeah, all great things to explore with this therapist, I would say. You know what you'll definitely want to take with you on your sex romp, Tamikonos? Something from the amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors is what keeps the lights on around here and electricity is expensive in California. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My first job out of college was at a dot-com right before the dot-com bust. My first job after grads,

school was at a bank in 2008. After some time scraping by as a consultant, I started a job two years ago in big tech. All of these led to at least one layoff. That said, I'm happy overall, have a happy family, and am an expert at navigating unemployment. But I'm now asking myself a few questions that I would love your guidance on. First, what industry would you like me to ruin next? Well, I can knock that one out right now. Fast fashion, lead smelting, and whatever industry is responsible for creating those TikTok videos of people popping zits, if you can finagle a job in that sector, that would be great because that's freaking, I mean, I can't stop watching them, but they're also really gross.

Same. I was about to say that. Like, why every time they pop up, I end up watching most of it? It's like, it's weirdly satisfying. But I think that's why it exists. Probably got some sort of, I don't know, not fetish, but, you know, not fetish, but, Like, what's the OCD thing? What's the opposite of a phobia where you're like, strangely, I have to, what the bigger and

grosser it is. I'm like, oh, I'm here for this. Yeah. And then when they get it out, you're like, oh, okay, job well done. Job well done. Good thing I watched this. They wouldn't have been able to do that without my help. Maybe also land a job in cobalt mining while you're at it.

Wouldn't mind if that industry took a hit after that episode. You know, I thought of that, but then none of us would have these sweet iPhones or Tesla, so it's a tough bargain. Yeah, it's a big tradeoff. Plus, our pregnant listeners wouldn't have something to listen to when they pass their mucus plug. So, uh, the Jordan Harbinger show, a mucus plug for your brain since 2017. Anyway, continue.

Second, what industries do you see as future proof, especially with the new AI escalation? And third, my friends point out that I would be doing very well financially if I were only born three years earlier and took the same career path. How do I handle this somewhat false regret? Signed, using all means to hang on to my green as we feel. face the machines. Good questions. Well, first of all, I'm, I'm sorry that you've gone through all these tough periods. I understand how stressful that is. As you may know, I was laid off from my job on Wall Street after the crash in 08, which frankly turned out to be a real blessing. But yeah,

it's intense. I do love that you think you might be responsible for these busts. It's very, it's very solipsistic of you. Gabe, did I get that correct? Did I nail that? Nailed it. You know, you were right. That is a good word. It's very solipsistic of you. as well. I know. I told you. Anyway, it's hard. I'm glad to hear you've become good at navigating unemployment and that you and your family are happy overall. That tells me you're doing the right things. You have the right mindset, which is awesome. So here's the deal. Nothing. No job. No industry. Nothing is truly future proof. Sure, there are more stable and less stable careers, but there are no sure bets. I mean, hell, you could be born into money and that's still, you know, there's still

X-factors and black holes involved in that. The law, being a lawyer, that was considered super stable until it wasn't. Creative fields, they seem beyond the reach of AI. Now, it's coming for lawyers and creative, so it's hard to say. It is true that people always seem to be hiring in certain industries, cybersecurity, medicine, food and beverage. But again, if the economy contracts or an industry goes through a major upheaval, those jobs can be in peril to, and there's no shortage of doctors that are driving a nine-year-old Prius and have two roommates. Trust me, we get those letters in our inbox. But the fields that seem safe as from AI right now, they seem to be the ones that require

a real human touch. You know, like mental health, writing, teaching, litigation, police work, managing people, even ironically, the field of AI itself, that is until the machines can design themselves, which is terrifying to think about. That's like the whole plot of Terminator, I think. or at least T2. But even still, aspects of those fields will still be eaten up by AI as it gets better and better. Patients will be partly diagnosed, even operated on by AI. In fact, that's already happening. Parts of writing could be done by software. Classes could be designed and delivered by machines.

There could conceivably be a point where police departments are staffed almost entirely by friggin' Boston Dynamics robots, which is also very terrifying to think about. That feels like a movie Matt Damon would be in or something. Totally. There might even be a point where that same movie is written with the help of ChatGBT. Gabe, you're probably cringing when you hear me say that, but it's true. Oh, and it'd probably be just as bad as most of the stuff coming out these days, but yeah, yay machines. Yeah.

It is hard to get worse than some of the stuff I've seen on Netflix recently, which I think was written by humans. Tell me about it. I'm not saying AI movies will be good. They'll just be possible and possibly at the same level as any. Michael Bayflick. But the point is, even the jobs that seem relatively safe from AI, those are still subject to the economy, to poor decisions by management. So looking for stability in this world, it's a bit of a fool's errand. We actually talked about this a couple months ago on episode 804. It was question three on that episode. The guy running in, he was feeling insecure

after his company went through layoffs. I definitely give that a listen. A lot of the same ideas apply to your situation as well. That said, I do think that AI is being hyped a lot right now. It's kind of like blockchain was a few years ago. It doesn't mean it's bullshit like blockchain sort of seems like it might be. It's obviously huge, but it does mean that nobody knows exactly who will win and where the technology is going to go yet. So even if you wanted to, you can't really predict how AI is going to shape your career. As for wishing you were born three years or earlier, I get it, but obviously there's nothing you can do about that. Even if you had been born three years earlier, you'd still been laid off, you'd just have more experience in the

industry before getting canned, which is not always the advantage it seems to be. That can make it harder to pivot. When my entire law firm went under back in 2009 or whatever year it was, the partners who had been there for longer, some of them were forced into retirement because they were just, it was old dog, new trick stuff, and they were too wrapped up in the bankruptcy. you might have dodged one or two rounds of layoffs, but you weren't going to dodge the entire 2008 mess, period. So there's no point in trying to time your entry like that in a way that's impossible with a time machine.

Your best bet, in my view, invest in your skills and your relationships, dig that well long before you get thirsty, learn to bounce back. I really do believe that those assets, that resilience, those will serve you better in times of uncertainty versus trying to protect yourself from the uncertainty in the first place. And if you bank on that, you're going to be great. Whatever ends up happening with AI or whatever.

I would also check out the interview I did with Dan Pink on the power of regret. That was episode 635. That'll help you use regret to your advantage rather than beating yourself up for something that you couldn't control in the first place. We're going to link to that in the show notes for you. Really good conversation. Dan Pink always delivers. Good luck.

and I'm just waiting for the day that I can replace Gabe with chat GPT. That's going to be a lot easier. Yeah. Well, good luck trying to get chat GPT to do the sign-off names. Tusha. Might have to keep you around a few years longer until the tech gets a little bit better. There's a few years. You know that's actually going to happen, too.

Like, they'll be able to do puns and limericks and everything. It's terrifying. We're going to do the whole show in, what is it called, iambic pentameter? Yeah, no problem. Can you imagine just feeding the Feedback Friday script into chat GPT? Just turn this into a Shakespeare sonnet. Boom. I don't know how many listeners we'd retain after one of those, but, yeah, worth the test.

You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Please try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through, a big decision that you are wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. How to overcome your shoplifting addiction? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately?

Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been broken up with my ex for three years, and this whole time we've been sharing custody of my dog, a small Yorkie named Athena. He bought her for me as a Christmas gift early in our relationship,

and she's my favorite dog since I was 12. I have clothes for her. I take her everywhere. I have a backpack she sits in while I ride my bike. She goes kayaking with me. I've got multiple big canvas pictures or paintings of her around my house. You get the point. I'm kind of obsessed with her.

She went back and forth week to week without much problem for all three years. He's been in a new relationship for almost two years now and just got engaged. Almost immediately after that, he decided that he's done sharing Athena and said that he and the new girl are keeping her for good. He said that I could see her to say goodbye, but wouldn't let me be alone with her. I'm truly heartbroken and blindsided. I know it wouldn't be practical to share her forever, but in theory, I would do it because she was loved and cared for her by both of us while we were together,

and I can't deny that he loves her too. But since he's the one who doesn't want to share her anymore, I think he should be the one to give her up. He's starting a new life, and to me it only makes sense that they get their own dog together. I'm in Michigan, where there are no pet custody laws, but I have a few things on my side. My name is on her vet records, and I've been paying those bills myself since we broke up. She's also licensed under my name, and she was technically a gift

to me. Should I take legal action here? Or should I try to see her and then just snag her back so that he has to go through this whole process? Signed, shaken up and trying not to crack up as I lose my pup after this brutal breakup. This is incredibly sad. Going through a breakup is hard enough, but then losing your dog to your ex and his new fiance is way worse. It's even worse, I should say. I'm really sorry this is happening. You obviously love this dog a lot. She's like your daughter. She's a little, your little homie, your little mascot. It's just brutal. It sucks to hear this. And the way your ex is doing it, just announcing unilaterally that he and his new gal are taking Athena, not letting you see her anymore, this feels quite cruel to me, very unnecessarily so, and also cruel to

Athena, because I'm guessing, you know, she's got a strong attachment to you too. This is just not cool at all. And again, totally unnecessary, in my opinion. We wanted to run your story by an expert, so we reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbin, Payne. And the first thing Corbyn said is that pet law is weird, and it varies state to state. Weird is a technical legal term, I guess, thanks, Corbin. He said he can't opine on the specific laws in Michigan, because he's not a lawyer in Michigan, but he can give you some general pointers. First of all, Corbin thinks that a pet would be considered property. I know kind of a gross term to apply to a pet when you're dressing her up in little tea time sweaters and putting a helmet on her for the bicycle.

But the law likes hard and fast black and white categories, and this is where pets fall. And generally speaking, Corbyn said you can recover property in a few different ways. Option one, you can contact law enforcement, show proof the dog is yours, see if they'll recover the dog as stolen property. But Corbin said he'd be surprised if they do this. In his experience, they're probably going to look at this as a question for the courts. option two, you can hire a lawyer to write a demand letter. Now, this is a letter that briefly explains your rights to ownership of the dog and demands your

ex turn her over to you. Again, Corbyn said this may or may not work, but it's going to put your ex on notice that a lawyer is involved and that he needs to take this seriously. Option three, yeah, you can probably sue your ex for Athena. And Corbyn also thinks that it's likely to be a much cheaper option than it sounds, which you never hear from lawyers about law. lawsuits, by the way. You could probably do this through small claims court. That's quicker. It's more informal. It involves far fewer steps, and so it's, of course, cheaper as a result. Also,

FYI, based on what we've read, you'd have to represent yourself in small claims court in Michigan and in many other states, for that matter. So you wouldn't even need to shell out money for an attorney for that. Now, that would involve going in and proving who the true owner is. In Corbyn's view, your ex can and will argue that, hey, he's the one who paid for the dog. The dog has lived with him too, et cetera, et cetera. And Corbyn said these points are in his favor, but you have points in your favor as well. Athena was a gift to you. You've paid for her vet visits. She's licensed in your name. All of that. Corbyn said your points sound more compelling, but again, he says that without knowing how the law in your state actually works. And if the lawsuit did

resolve in your favor, the judge would execute paperwork authorizing law enforcement. to go get possession of the dog and turn her over to you. And Gabe, I am just picturing a SWAT team knocking this guy's door right off the hinges and coming out with a Yorkie. But that's just my fantasy because I'm 100% on this woman's side. This guy's being a total asshole. Oh, I am too. I hope it doesn't come to any of that.

But yes, the legal route might be the only way. And by the way, we found a bunch of resources about pet custody in Michigan. So we're going to link to all of those in the show notes for you. I would just give those a read, see where your options are. But look, before you pull any of these triggers, I just got to ask, have you done everything in your power to make your ex realize just how unfair the situation is? I wonder if you need to just sit down with him and maybe even with his fiance, or write them a letter if they're difficult to talk to, and tell them just how heartbreaking this has been for you. And what a strong bond you have with Athena. What losing her would mean?

I would hope that they would know that already, but maybe they don't fully realize what people. position they're putting you in by taking her away. I would literally tell them, look, guys, this is incredibly difficult, and I can't imagine that you would want to deliberately hurt me like this. So can we please keep sharing custody? Or if you don't want to have contact with me anymore, that's fine. But can you please consider letting me keep Athena and you guys get your own dog as you start your new life together? Like, let's be reasonable here. Dude, he got engaged. He is a fiance. What she has right now is an adorable dog. She takes. with her to brunch. Let her keep the pup, go rescue a freaking golden retriever together. It just seemed,

ugh, I hate this. I hate it. I know. It does seem cruel. Although, you know, to be fair, like she said, he's probably attached to Athena as well. So, yeah, it's tough. Share custody like a normal human being. I'm getting worked up over here. You know, this has occurred to me just now. Maybe this is the fiancee's doing. Maybe she doesn't love the idea of them still having contact and a mutual thing that they both like, and she's all insecure about it and maybe a lot of other things, which is petty and lame, but, you know, it happens. There's a world in which he speaks highly of his ex, and they share Athena, and the fiancee's like, uh-oh, that means that I don't have him fully on lock and I'm a controlling crazy person, and I got to plug this gap. That's what

it seems like to me. I just can't imagine doing this to someone. Well, if that's the case, I would remind them that this arrangement is not going to last forever and it's not anything more than sharing the dog. And sorry, I know that's sad to think about. I don't mean to bring up your dog's inevitable mortality. But the reality is you won't have to be tethered to each other forever. You'll just have to be minimally involved in each other's lives as long as you both share Athena. I'm just wondering if maybe that will help. I mean, I guess it's a good thing they didn't adopt a tortoise or a parrot or something. You know, imagine these two sharing custody of a pet in their 70s. Oh yeah, those things live forever.

I have a friend who has a tortoise in her backyard, and they think it's like somewhere between 60 and 80 years old, and it's going to live until it's, I can't remember how old, 120 or 30 or? How do they know how old the tortoise in their backyard is? They took it to a vet, and the vet has some way of guessing, I don't know, based on wrinkles. Yeah, I was going to say count the rings or something.

I think it's the shell, something with the shell and how big it is and how many squares it has. I don't know. Anyway, on the bright side, you know, if they do share a pet this long, maybe the fiancé will have died by that. That should make things simpler. That does simplify things. That's a good point.

But also, maybe you can help them understand that by taking Athena, they're also depriving her of her other parent, who she has a strong bond with. I mean, this is not cool either. No. If they can't have compassion for you, maybe you can appeal to their sense of compassion for her. As for grabbing the dog yourself, we asked Corbyn about that. And he said that he would be careful about doing that without consulting.

insulting an attorney. Because on one hand, he thinks you could argue that the dog is yours and you're just reclaiming property that's been unlawfully withheld from you. But on the other hand, your ex can and likely will argue the exact same thing. And Corbyn would hate for you to get sanctioned for going into their house and grabbing, you know, mutual property. Plus, he did say that there's a slew of other things that could also get you in trouble if you go over there and dog nap your own dog, a trespassing charge, an assault, if this ever somehow turned into a scuffle, you know, stuff like that. So if your ex can't be reasoned with, then you do have all those other legal options. Right, but I'm with Gabe.

Exhaust your diplomatic options first, then escalate if you need to. Gabe, I got to say, if I were being forced to be a dick to my ex because of my current fiance and then I got served with papers, I would probably just give up the dog. I mean, if I know it's going to cost me 30 freaking K to keep a dog that I'm just trying to keep because my fiancee is being insecure about it, I'm going to choose the 30K over the dog. And what I'm saying here is, if she ends up suing as a last resort, I wouldn't be surprised if they settle and she ends up with the dog. I'm just hoping her ex and his new fiance are as cheap as they are petty. Again, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. The thought of you biking alone without her in the backpack, too sad to think about, for real.

Oh, seriously. Forsooth. Forsooth. We're writing for you and for your pup. You know what else you won't want to share custody of? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I would love it if you would do what other smart and considerate listeners do.

Take a moment, support one of our amazing sponsors. They put it on the line for us here. All the deals and discount codes and ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can always search for any sponsor using the search box, the AI chat bot right there on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

My niece is 12 years old, and due to a nasty divorce, she visits our extended family twice a year for a month at a time. My 10-year-old daughter looks forward to these visits. Recently, though, I discovered that my brother-in-law's ex-wife told my niece to not. never be alone with me in a room because I might molest her. What? This wasn't a blanket statement. She specifically mentioned me. I spoke with my wife and my sister-in-law to see if I was somehow giving off those creepy uncle vibes and both said no. During the divorce, my niece's mom accused my brother-in-law of a wide range of abuses, from sexual to physical, all of which have been proven 100% false. I also discovered that she set up a YouTube channel for my niece when she

was eight in ways that I found borderline abusive in their own right. So I have no doubt that this woman would coach my niece to say things just for the attention. Ugh. Since I learned about these statements, I've gone from being an uncle who takes the kids to the zoo and plays board games, to the man who leaves the room when my niece enters. I also won't allow her to spend the night anymore or do any of the fun things we used to do. I'm a recently retired senior military leader, and I've seen firsthand what accusations like these can do to a man, regardless of plausibility. What should I do here? And how do I stop punishing my daughter and my niece for my brother-in-law's exes BS, signed Feeling the Gloom of Being doomed to stay out of the room?

This is terrible. This is all kinds of sad. It's sad for your daughter. It's sad for your niece. It's sad for you. It's sad for the whole family, really. Your brother-in-law's ex, ugh. She sounds like a real piece of trash. That's all I can say. I mean, I'm not even sorry about that. The fact that you checked in with the other ladies and your family and do see if you were in fact giving off some kind of creepy uncle vibe and they're like, no, you're totally normal. Coupled with the whole YouTube. Was it YouTube or Instagram? Some sort of. YouTube. Yeah, that's weird. Eight-year-olds don't need a YouTube managed by their parents, unless they're super musically talented or something. I don't know. The whole thing's disturbing. That paints a picture for me of a very troubled and

troubling woman. And what's really messed up is that everyone else pays the price for this woman's manipulations. It's so common with these kinds of people, though, so I can't say that I blame you for putting distance between you and your knees. It must be terrifying to feel like you could be accused of something awful by a person like this. A person who has a track record of making these nonsense accusations, in a way, it's really the most logical thing to do. Just stay far away from these people, but again, the tragic thing here is that your niece and daughter, they're the ones who pay the price. And you, you have to feel like a monster when you haven't done anything at all.

Ugh. Gabe, this is so infuriating. I hate people like this. This is like victim culture plus, I mean, it's just sociopathic nonsense. This is crazy. I also hate that the crazy people often win because the normal people, like this guy can't out crazy them. It just sucks.

Yeah, exactly. This guy wants to look at giraffes and play Dungeons and Dragons and enjoy his retirement. He doesn't want to play 4D chess with frigging bat shit Charlene, the YouTube stage mom, who cries child abuse to retaliate against her old family. So what do you even do here? All right. Well, first of all, there's a version of this where you keep doing what you're doing. You keep your distance.

You don't have your niece over anymore. And when she's 17, 18, 19, you explain to her why you. you guys didn't see her that much, and you and your daughter rebuild your relationship with her when she's a bit older, as best you can. Obviously, unfortunately, it's a huge chunk of time to lose, but it is an option. The upside is you don't antagonize Charlene, you protect yourself. The downside is you deprive your daughter of a great friendship. You miss out on being an uncle, which sucks, but there are some other downsides to consider with this option too. One downside is, if you play along with Charlene's BS, if you leave the room every time your knees comes over, I worry that she'll

interpret that as a rejection. And she's going to internalize that as anger or shame or just some sort of generally weird feeling. And that'll cause even more damage. Another downside, and it might send a signal to her mom and everyone else in the family that there really is something creepy going on. Otherwise, why do you act so weird when she comes around and you leave the room? What's the deal there? That's kind of weird. We want to avoid that kind of thing. And finally, if your ex-sister-in-law ever did accuse you of anything, there's nothing going on here. So you avoiding her? Not necessarily.

I said you're not going to antagonize Charlene before. We don't actually know that. If she did accuse you of anything, your relationship with your niece is going to be much weaker, which means it could be easier for her mom to manipulate her memories or get her to turn on you. And it could be harder for you to set the record straight because you don't have a good relationship with her to set straight in the first place. it's almost like protecting yourself in this very logical way, that might have the unfortunate effect of feeding your ex-sister-in-law's position. So, yeah, I think there's another strategy here, and that strategy is you don't let this woman

intimidate you. You still have your niece over. You act normally just like you always have. And the message here is, I got nothing to hide. I am not scared to you. And if you want to manufacture some ridiculous-ass claims about me, you're going to have to prove them. and there's nothing to freaking prove because I've been totally normal and open.

Now, if you decide to go this route, I still do think you should take some precautions. For example, maybe you never have your niece over to the house when it's just you and your daughter alone. Maybe you always make it a family gathering so there's at least one or two other people around, people who could vouch for you, who could be witnesses. Maybe you decide to never spend time completely alone with her until she's an adult, to just avoid any pockets where her mom could get in and twist. her memories around. Maybe you guys don't do solo outings, just the three of you, for a little

while. But unfortunately, that might be necessary during this weird interim period. But that's not the biggest sacrifice. It's better than denying your daughter the cousin she deserves. In fact, your niece might not even notice that that's happening. It's just something you do to minimize this threat and you just hope Charlene gets over this crap or goes, bother somebody else. I like those strategies a lot, Jordan. While you do all of that, though, I would also protect yourself in one other big way, which is by talking about this with your other family members and just building good relationships with them, which I'm sure you're already doing, but I mention it because this will probably be your greatest asset if her mom ever did try to turn around and mess up

your life. If I were in your shoes, I would literally go to your family members, obviously starting with your wife, your sister-in-law, and then everybody else, but also your brother-in-law, because look, he's your niece's father, right? And he gets it. And tell them what Charlene said, make them understand that this would never happen, which I'm sure they already know. And tell them how it's impacted you and your daughter. Maybe ask them how they would handle it. You know, get some advice. What should I do, guys?

Maybe ask them if they think you should stop interacting with your niece or whether they would be willing to hang out with you guys to give you just some more cover. Basically, I would invite them into this problem and create some allies here and get out in front of it and be as transparent as possible. That way, if this woman ever did accuse you of anything, and I don't know, This is such an extreme case, but if the authorities ever did investigate, which I hope never happens, if that ever came to be CPS or the police or whatever, they would come over, I imagine that they would interview you, they would interview your brother-in-law, they would interview your niece, maybe your

daughter, maybe your extended family, and if everybody in this situation is going, look, this guy is not a predator, he's a great uncle. This woman has been saying that she would accuse him of exactly this for years and we've never ever seen him do anything like this. In fact, he came to us months ago and he talked us about this and he said he didn't know what to do and we were all so comfortable with him being in her life that we told him, of course, be in your niece's life. Like don't deprive your daughter of her friend. These people could hopefully vouch for you if it ever came to that and they could provide some very important context about how credible your niece's mom really is, which is not at all. Right. Yeah, I like that strategy a lot, Gabe. But look, if Charlene ever

gets agro, if she starts becoming truly unhinged, maybe then you reconsider how much contact you have with your knees. But if she's just making vague threats and literally no one in the family believes her, it might not be worth giving up on being an uncle and making your daughter and your niece pay the price. And regardless, when your niece turns 18, maybe even sooner, depending on her maturity level and her relationship with her mom, which I'm just going to go ahead and guess is not great, especially at that point. You're going to be able to sit her down. You're going to fill her in on what her mom did, and hopefully you guys can repair the relationship then.

I hope it doesn't come to that. But kids as they grow up, they start to realize their parents are freaking crazy, especially if their parents are actually freaking crazy. But, man, I am so sorry you're dealing with this. We're sending you, your daughter, and your niece, our best thoughts. Her mom, I'm thinking we're going to see her in a creepy stage mom's documentary on Hulu in a couple of years or something like that.

I mean, what a train wreck. someone's going to need therapy in about six years, some good old-fashioned unsharleaning to undo all of that. It's just gross. It sucks, man. She's ruining her kid. She's messed with the extended family. I mean, this is a damaged person

that just makes everything about them. She's got issues. It reminds me of the book. Have you heard of this book? I'm glad my mom died. You heard of this book? Oh, is this by the child actor? It is.

It is. Yeah. I was recommended it early and then unrecommended her on the show. So I don't want to give away too much information, but it was basically her mom just drove her to, I think, eating disorders and made her really miserable and sort of drove her career to fulfill her mom's unfulfilled ambitions in many ways. And it was just kind of sick. It was actually sick. Yeah.

Really, really gross. Anyway, all right. What's next? Hey, guys. I do therapy over Zoom from home. And I recently started to worry that my neighbors were eavesdropping on my side. Then, recently, I heard my neighbors a man and a woman next door discussing my therapy session through the thin apartment walls.

I was on a Zoom with my therapist discussing sensitive topics when I overheard a female voice say to someone else, shh, she's doing therapy, can you hear it? Oh my God. As their voices got louder, I knew that they were getting closer to the wall. Oh, that's so annoyed. Yeah, yeah, irritating. So invasive. This discovery has left me deeply disturbed.

and I'm concerned about what other personal information they might have heard. I've only seen my neighbors a few times and don't know them personally. How do I approach this situation? Should I let it go? Or should I say something? Signed, Trying to Ball without getting into a brawl with these people who have the gall

to listen through the wall. Oh man, this is super awkward. So awkward. I have to imagine that tons of people deal with this problem just because hashtag apartment life and Z, Zoom therapy, but man, this is so uncool. Also, these neighbors are the worst eavesdroppers ever. If they can hear you through the wall, why don't they understand that you can hear them talking about you through the wall? Of course. Fricking amateurs. The way to eavesdrop on your neighbor's Zoom therapy is to tiptoe to the

wall, put your ear against it, and shut the hell up, people. God, no respect for the craft. But seriously, this is, it's gross. It's an invasion of privacy. It's disrespectful. I mean, look, I get it. We all love hearing our neighbors bullshit. It's weirdly fascinating. I mean, this whole show is that, right? I mean, I don't know how much room we have to talk, but it's a bridge too far. So you have a few options here.

All pretty straightforward, in my humble opinion. Option one, you find somewhere else to do therapy. The car, the closet, the bathroom, wherever you have a little nook. Tons of people already do this, especially with people who have roommates or partners and need a little extra privacy. I mean, the car is pretty common.

Not always the most comfortable. Option two, you create some privacy somehow. Maybe you drown out the sound in the room, you get a white noise machine, maybe a white noise app on your phone, you turn on a fan, you run the AC, you put acoustic panels up on the wall, that might do the trick, or, and I don't love it, you start doing in-person sessions, but I understand that might not be possible for whatever reason. It's largely inconvenient compared to Zoom therapy.

Option three, you get a little more assertive here. I know this is daunting, it's uncomfortable, but if you're not getting the privacy you deserve in your own home, I might add, then you are well within your rights to say something to these neighbors. Maybe you just go over there one day and you say, hey, listen, I know this is awkward, but I've gathered that you've listened in on some of my conversations with my therapist, and I would like to ask you not to do that anymore. I realize the walls are thin, but I need some privacy,

and I'm sure you can understand, so I'm respectfully asking you to stop. Or maybe, you know, you say between three and four on Mondays, would it be possible for you guys to turn on the TV or go for a walk? Because that's my therapy time and privacy is really important to me. Honestly, that'll probably stop them dead in their tracks because they're going to be so mortified at being caught. They're not going to be able to defend themselves and they're going to maybe back off, maybe.

I hope so. Or they'll keep doing it because they'll be even more interested in her sessions, but they'll just be quieter about it, which is, this is a real problem. Yeah, I realized as I was saying that this could also be true. And I hate these people. I don't know them, but they need a goddamn hobby. Yeah, she is in a pickle, forsooth. Forsooth?

Even if they did back off, how would she know for sure, right? She might always be paranoid that they're listening, which means that she might have to do therapy in another part of the apartment or in another location, yeah, just to have that piece of mind. Right, they've already ruined it, haven't they? They've invaded already. It sucks. It's like when you get broken into you don't feel safe in your home anymore. It's a similar vibe.

But, you know, this would also be an interesting thing to talk to her therapist about because maybe they have some ideas for how to handle it. And look, if the idea of confronting your neighbors feels too daunting, hey, that could be a really interesting topic for you guys to explore because it might get into some interesting stuff about how you manage conflict, how you deal with difficult people, how you draw boundaries when you need to. Totally. It's a fascinating situation because it might speak to aspects of her personality.

It reminds me a little bit of office space. Remember that movie where the neighbor can hear? hear him through the wall and he's like, yes. Hey, Earl, you want to come over? He's like, no, thanks, man. I don't want you screwed up my life. I forgot about that.

Such a good character. Such a good character. I think he's the writer or one of the writers on the show or on the movie. Is that Mike Judge? I don't know. Yeah, look it up. I definitely remember hearing that somewhere. Honestly, if this were me, and I'm a little agro in situations like this,

I know not everyone's like this, but if this were me, I'm marching over there and I'm knocking. Or I'm shouting through the wall. Yeah. You're right. I am doing therapy right now. So can you please stop putting your ear to the wall and go watch Succession? It's the final season.

I promise you it's more interesting than what I'm talking about and just kind of give it right back to them. Although, Gabe, the black hat, dark Jordan version of this is, I make sure they're listening to my next session. Right. And then I start telling the therapist about, I'm struggling. I saw my next door neighbor tonging down a woman. It's not his girlfriend.

and they live together and I see them, you know, they're right next to me. I'm just not sure how to handle it. Just make half the session about how you feel so bad for the girl next door. And the guy is, he's such a disgusting scumbag and he's groped you in the elevator once or he made passes at you before, et cetera, whatever. And then just switch to another topic and never say anything about it ever again. Dark Jordan is back. Yeah.

Oh, I love Dark Jordan. Dark Jordan for sooth. I'm just picturing them on the other side of the wall hearing this and just turning to each other, like, what now we have a problem? No, it's not me, yeah. And he's like, nah, what's not? And then, and just you hear pounding and furniture moving. Seriously, though, they'll never know if you're making it up. They would definitely fight about it.

And they could never confront you about it, not really, because then they'd have to admit that they listen to your therapy sessions. So that's a good point. They're going to lose weeks of sleep over this. And I would just relish the shit out of every minute because, look, despite how I come across here on Feedback Friday, I am indeed not that warm and fuzzy. And I will destroy you if you mess with me. But I digress. It's really funny because my closet studio shares a wall with the unit next door, obviously.

And I can sometimes, I should say this more quietly. Yeah, maybe tone it down there if they're listening. I can sometimes hear the couple over there talking. So I assume they can hear me talking. But what they hear is me reading these crazy ass letters every week. But I don't know if they know that they're letters. Oh, yeah. They probably just think that I'm talking to my friends about my life.

So for all I know, just like, dude, that guy next door is a mess. Like, he wants to leave his wife for younger men and Mekonos. Like, his boyfriend stole 70 grand from him. His ex took his dog. Like, who is this guy? Yeah. And the funny thing is, I've never run into them in the building, just like this woman. we've never talked.

So these feedback Friday letters are really all they have to go on. Oh, my, it's amazing. Like, your kids live with a pedophile. You're worried you might be a pedophile. Your brother-in-law tried to blackmail you for sex. Jesus, dude, what is going on with you? Get your life together. That's exactly it.

Good thing you're in therapy. These people have been looking for a new apartment since the week you moved in for sure. And it's probably the reason you've never met them. They are avoiding you like the plate. Like everything this guy touches turns to absolute shit. Don't even look at this guy. Or they're sticking around because it's the most entertaining neighbor they've ever had. Yeah.

They're just keeping their ear to that wall. I don't know. I can't tell you how often I've practiced my little speech for when I finally run into them in the hallway. Like, I got it down. It's like, listen, guys, you probably hear me screaming into the microphone every week. I host a show. They're just letters. You know, I just want you to know in case you were wondering why I talk about pedophilia so much.

Yeah. And I hope it goes well. I'm looking forward to the day. We get a letter from somebody. that's like, so I recently found out that my neighbor is a pedophile. He's constantly talking about it through the wall. What should I do? And we're like, go report it to the police.

And a week later, you get a knock at the door. And the cops are standing there. And they wonder why you have a scream-proof closet with acoustic panels on the wall. They're from Eastelm. I don't know what to tell you. I'm a podcaster. We've heard it all. Tell it to the judge.

Totally. Police like anything you want to tell us. I just lead them into the closet and point at the mind. microphone as I start to cry. I mean, this would be the greatest feedback Friday story ever, except for the part where you have to spend half your salary bailing you out of jail, and we miss three weeks of the show. That's a business expense if I've ever heard one.

That's just pure right off. It's coming right out of your check. I am not covering that. I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back. Especially the neighbors next door.

Oh, especially the neighbors next door. Go back and check out the episode we did this week with Paul Rosalie, if you haven't had a chance to yet, you can hear about our time in the jungle. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage relationships, using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use every single day, I got a course on networking, but not the gross kind, the not gross kind, I guess, the clean kind, six minute networking, the course is free. I don't want your credit card number, it's actually free.

It's on the think-ific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. And don't kick the can down the road, man. dig the well before you get thirsty, build relationships before you need them. It'll serve you well in life. Trust me, I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Once again, free jordanharbinger.com a link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, although, you know, maybe you can just listen through your neighbor's wall and get the gist. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support this show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also try the chatbot, Jordanharbinger.com slash AI, and that'll find any

promo code or any question we've answered ever on this show, which is pretty dope. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or you can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, they're our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. We've got a trailer of our interview with Jack Barski, former KGB spy, who posed as an American in a truer-than-life version of a Hollywood movie. This is one of our most popular episodes of the show. Jack not only dodged the FBI for decades. but also defected from the Soviet Union, secretly becoming a real American. We'll learn how spies were recruited and trained during the Cold War and what skills Jack used to assimilate seamlessly into American culture. I was untouchable. I was above the law. I was always bypassing customs and passport

control, so a young person that really feels good because I never liked rules. How did you flip to eventually becoming full American? I know they tried to call you home. Can you take us through that? They called me back as an emergency departure. They've done this in the past. They called back an agent, and as soon as they step on Soviet soil, they are jailed or even executed. I was stalling the Soviets, and then one day they sent one of their resident agents, and he said to me, you've got to come home or else you're dead.

It was a threat. I decided I would defy them and tell them that I'm not returning. I will not betray any secrets, and please give the money on my account. to my German family. Wow. Tell us how you got caught because the story is just not complete until you, like you said, had to face your past.

I was stopped on the other side of a toll gate. It was a state trooper. Just like to check your license and registration. And could you step out of the car? I step out of the car. I still not having a clue what was going on. Out of the corner of my eye, somebody approaching me from the back.

The fellow introduced himself. He says, Joe Riley, FBI, and he showed me this badge. We would like to talk. with you. The first question I asked, am I under arrest? And the answer was no. Then I said, what took you so long? For more from Jack Barski, including how Jack was finally caught by the FBI, and what happened after that, check out episode 285 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great

podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's

got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.