The Jordan Harbinger Show - 84: Charles Ryu | Confessions of a North Korean Escape Artist Part One

Episode Date: August 21, 2018

Charles Ryu (@freshprinceofpyongyang) escaped from North Korea -- twice -- and now works with Liberty in North Korea to fight for the rights and freedom of those who have been left behind. What We Discuss with Charles Ryu: A glimpse of the rampant corruption ruling the daily lives of average North Koreans. Being homeless anywhere at any age is terrible. But what's it like being a homeless preteen in North Korea during the winter? How Charles escaped from North Korea to China as a young teenager and what he got a taste of for the first time ever. What led to Charles being jailed in China, deported back to North Korea, and sent to a forced labor camp for nine months. How working in a coal mine for a paycheck of rice was a step up for Charles, even though he had to lie about his age to get the job. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Today, we're talking with Charles Rue. This is an incredible story. He escaped by himself from North Korea twice. And this is a show I thought would take an hour, ended up going for three, which is why it's a two-part episode. Those of you who don't know much about North Korea, this is a place where you can get sent to a labor camp

for folding a newspaper incorrectly or for watching a movie that wasn't made by the government. I mean, they can execute you for this stuff. Charles is a great storyteller. And what strikes me here is how he stayed strong through this whole ordeal. He didn't give into resentment, nor did he give up in a situation that would have pretty much given anyone a license to do that. The story of Charles Escape is absolutely incredible. There's so much in here that's both shocking, inspiring, even emotional, that I really think you'll enjoy hearing this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. And don't forget, we have worksheets for today's

episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of all the key takeaways here from Charles. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. All right, here's Charles Rue. So you just had a very American experience. Yeah, I did. I met a shack, you know. It's a surprise, you know. I've never expected to meet a really, really famous, you know, a celebrity basketball player, but it's been a really good experience. Yeah. I couldn't close my job. I was like, Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Did you know who Shaq was when you were in North Korea?

I didn't know who Shaq was when I was in North Korea, but I knew who was James Bond. Yeah. Really? When I was in North Korea, I was like a huge fan of Hollywood films, you know, like double of seven, like action movies. You know, actually I watched Will Smith, like the Bad Boys 1 when I was in North Korea. Really? Is that popular in North Korea, Bad Boys? It is super popular.

Like among like, uh, Millennium. you know, among this fellow North Koreans friends that I had. Yeah, it's really popular. And you just became an American citizen. Yeah, yeah, I just did. I became like citizen like a couple of days ago. I got my like a certificate, you know, and it feels great. Now I'm a fellow American, you know, citizen. That's crazy. Congratulations, first of all. Thank you. Coming from North Korea, being in America, being an American citizen, does it feel different? I mean like, you know, I've been hiding before I came to United States. You know, I was living, under the shadow for a while.

So having my own identity, I was, like, defined as something, you know, like, oh, he's like, oh, he's American, you know? I mean, like, he's not Korean. I mean, like, you know, I really want to have that privilege. Now I got my citizenship finally. I feel, like, a lot, like, responsible in a way. Because, like, now I got to pay tax.

Now you can cheat and avoid taxes like every other American. You can't, now you have to, and you can't just slide by. Right. You've got to figure out creative ways to not pay tax. Well, to understand what that means, I think we have to go back a little bit to understand. Yeah, yeah. I mean, first of all, thank you so much for having me here today.

Sure. Yeah. Where were you born? I mean, I was born in North Korea in October 1, 1994, under Chinese father and a North Korean mother. Wait, I'm already kidding. How did that happen? Yeah, right. I mean, from China, but more explicitly, how?

So my grandfather was a Chinese soldier, like, between, like, north and south, like, When there was a war, right? So my grandfather came out to North Korea to fight off, like, I guess, Americans. Sure. And then he never returned to China after the war. So he came for what we call the Korean War? Korean War. Came for the war, stayed for the women?

Yeah, stay for the women, right? How romantic, right? I mean, but one thing that I'm sure was, like, my grandfather didn't speak any Korean. My grandmother didn't speak any Chinese, but somehow they managed to, you know, live, you know. I know how that works. I mean, right, Jen? Just kidding. Yeah, and then my grandfather stayed after the war.

And then, like, give me a son give out, like, special privilege to Chinese soldiers that didn't live to China. And, like, saying, okay, so once you are going to be here, we're going to give you everything, right? Privilege to, like, stay here or whenever you want to go back, just we can just leave, right? As a reward for fighting. Right, right, right. And then my grandfather stayed. And then he had my father. And then my father was a Chinese.

He wasn't a Chinese at first, right? So he was North Korean until he turned like 30 or something. He got his passport much later. At the time when my father met my mother, he already had a family. In China. Or no, sorry. Yeah, in North Korea. He had a passport at the time when he met my mother.

He was already married. He had four kids. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then basically I was just like born out of Welluck. Got it. And then when I turned five, my father abandoned me and my mom, and he left to China,

bringing all his kids except me. Oh, man. Were you aware of everything that was going on back then? I had no idea. You just knew that he left. Yeah, I just knew that, like, oh, he's going to return someday, right? And then when I was like seven, I remember my mom telling me like, okay, you don't tell anybody your dad is Chinese, right?

If anybody asks, tell them your dad passed away with a car accident. Okay. In the car accident. I was like, okay. I'm like, I'm a kid. I don't know anything. Did you have a car? We didn't have any cars, but like just car accident, you know, like, because like, not

Korea, like, you rarely find cars. So it seems like a bad excuse if there's not that many cars. Yeah, right. How many car accidents are. I guess you say that and people don't ask questions. Yeah, yeah. But what was the idea behind that? Why did she want you to lie?

Because, like, she didn't want people asking questions, right? The reason behind it is that at the time, like, my father was living with my family. Like he divorced his wife because of my mom and they were still living together And then when I was five he borrowed like a bunch of money from the neighbors using our name and he bought opium and then so his idea was okay So opium in North Korea is really cheap because we grow them right but in China it's illegal but expensive because nobody has it So the idea behind it was I can just do this once if it's if I sell it in China make money It's gonna be rich you know it's gonna be Yeah, paid the neighbors back.

So he went to China. Like my mom told me before she died. Like, oh, yeah, my father was like, oh, I'll be back. And within the next six months. And then he left. After six months, we didn't hear anything back from my father. And then debt collectors started to come to her house. Oh, man.

Yeah. And then, like, bidding the crap out of my mom. Oh, so this is like black market. Yeah, black market. This is a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah. What is a North Korean debt collector like?

Who is that? Like a mafia guy kind of? No, it's not. mafia guys. It's just a neighbors. You know, neighbors, like, debt collectors means, like, neighbors, like husband, right? Their, like, wife husbands, you know, like, husbands always

come, right? So it's the people he borrowed money from. Yeah, so they came to our house, you know, they started taking our things, you know, such as, like, dishes, you know, clothings and like a cooking pot, rice pot. And at the end, like, they took our house. They just kicked you guys

out of the house. Yeah, look at the hell out of here, you know. And then we lost everything. And then we went to my grandmother's house when I was seven. And that's when my mom told me, so if anybody asks, tell them your dad has died in the car accident. And then, you know, I seriously,

I grew up, like, without, I have no memories of my dad, you know, because I was such a young, you know, five years old. I don't remember anything about my father. And, like, because over the time, like, I must keep hearing my dad is dead, you know, like he's,

I barely heard of him. But, yeah, and then I was living with my granddad. grandmother from age 7 to 11. And my mom is always traveling around the world, around the country to find my dad. Because, like, he's out there somewhere. You know, I know it. Was your grandmother in the same city?

Yeah, some city is my father. So you, within the same city, you moved to your grandmother's house, but your mom started going around the country. Is that doable? Can people move around the country just to look for somebody? Actually, you can't do that because you have to have, like, a document. Like a special pass? Yeah, special pass.

But during, like, only 2,000s, that was kind of easier because a lot of people, like, that was, like, after great famine. Approximately 300,000 to 1 million people were starved to death in North Korea. But during that time, like, the traveling is kind of, like, a lot easier than nowadays. Interesting. Yeah, nowadays, like, you have to have travel documents, you know, but I'm not saying that it was, like, really easy. You can just get on a train. It's not like that, but you still have to get, like, travel documents, you know, like passport. Not a passport, but like a visa or something.

Yeah, visa, right? To move around, so you need documents to move around. Right. Easier back then. Yeah, easier back then to get. Because a million people around million people starved death. Right. The people who were enforcing movement were busy with other things.

Right, right, right, exactly. Wow, okay. So she's off. Yeah, she's off. I don't know where she's at. And then I'm, you know, going to school in North Korea. I enrolled in elementary school when I was like eight. And I remember going to school with, like, different pair of shoes.

You know, one side on a winter shoes, one side on a summer, like a rain boots. Wait, so you had one different shoe on each foot? Yeah, because I was so poor. I got like nothing. Yeah, and then I'm going to school. I'm learning about Kim Jong-Yung-Yos history, you know, like math, like North Korean language, and arts, music, you know, like PE, you know. And then my mom comes back when I was nine years old. So she's been gone for two years.

Yeah, she's been gone for two years. but she comes back completely vegetable. She's, like, paralyzed. Oh, she can't walk or anything? I mean, she could walk, but she was barely alive. Why? I don't know, because, like, she has been starving, stressed, you know, and... She's a different person.

Yeah, she was a completely different person. And then she had a heart trouble. So she couldn't breathe that well. But, yeah, she comes back when I was night, and then... Do you remember that day? I do, I do. What was that like? You know, I went to school, and I came back,

and I saw a pair of shoes that was ladies and my grandmother has like you know some shoes too but like it's not that you know fancy looking but I saw fancy looking shoes in the door mat and I was like oh like I wonder if it's my mom you know and then I stepped in the door and my mom is lying down on the ground

you know almost like like dying and I couldn't talk her because she couldn't speak or hear or see she's completely like paralyzed oh wow yeah and then we had to move her to hospital so we went to hospital but in North Korea like hospital and everything is like it's free right that's how the like communist government yeah yeah government runs right because it's a socialism like the method right the function itself is like free but actually when you want it to get it it you have to pay for everything So you kind of have to bribe people to give you things that you need?

Is that what you mean? Yeah, you have to kind of bribe out, you know, like drive in, you know, and you have to buy it on your medication and bring it to the hospital so that the doctors can inject it. Because like not because it's so poor, you know, they don't have any medical, they don't really have good medical, like, you know. Care. Yeah, so it's not really free. It's not really free. Yeah, you have to pay.

Okay. Yeah. And so my grandmother's side grandparents, they were really, really rich. So they used to be a famous, my grandfather was a magician. A magician? Yeah. Really? Not magic magician.

Oh, I was like, wow, they have magic. The story is better and better. But musicians also pretty much. Yeah. So he used to play really famous band in North Korea, in Pyongyang, for the government, right? He played for the government? Yeah, for the government. That's actually a really privileged position, right?

Yeah, and my mom was actually born in Pyongyang. Okay. Yeah. And then my entire family lived in Pyongyang. government provides like everything for them. That must mean that your mom's family was connected. Connected what connected with the government? Yeah.

And then my grandmother, I think like maybe, you know, I think like the way that I can speak English so well, I mean like cats like something really well is because I think I got like my grandmother's brain because she spoke three languages. So she spoke Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Yeah. So she's a triangle. I think she spoke Russian too, but I can't remember. Interesting.

Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So my grandmother had some money, and we used all onto saving my mom. And then about a year, she was doing much better. She could walk, she could talk, she could eat, and then she could, like, talk to me, you know, like, oh, I missed you, you know. And, like, yeah, and then my grandmother ran out of money, so she can't put her in the hospital anymore. So we had to take her back home. That was when I was 10.

I completely dropped out of school because I need to nurse my mom, right? because, like, she cannot move that well. So, like, I need to give her bath. You know, I need to clean her. You know, I need to take out poop and pee. You know, I have to bring food inside. So I was with her 24 hours. And you're 10 years old at this morning.

I was 10 years old. Yeah. And you're taking care of your mom. Yeah. And your family now doesn't have money. We don't have any money. And there is no way that we're going to survive this winter. So when I was 10, my mom gets out of the hospital because we don't have any money to treat her.

And then we came back home. she seems to be doing really fine. But one day, she collapsed. She just, like, really collapsed on the floor. And then, like, she's paralyzed again. And then she was doing, like, she would, like, wake up unconsciously. You know, and then she would scream, you know, like, ah! I don't know, like, ah!

Because I think, like, she had a timor in her head or something. Oh, maybe. Yeah, and then, like, she would scream at night, you know, because, like, her head really hurts. And then, or so about a year, I had to still take care of her at home, you know, I had to take out. I need to clean her. I try to feed her, you know, I try to do anything, like everything. But last about a month, you know, she couldn't eat.

Like, she couldn't even, like, feel anything. She was just lying down there. And then eventually, 2011 May, she passed away. May 5th, she passed away without leaving any last words. And, no, so before she died, like, somewhere around, like, when she was, like, conscious, she told me, like, Charles, if I had a whole, like, lamb, you know, I think I'm going to be doing just fine, you know. If I had a whole lamb, I would be just fine. Yeah, if I ate. A whole lamb.

Yeah, whole lamb. Like, I'll be just fine as you are. It means, like, she's starving, you know. She's really hungry. That's the last thing that I remember about my mom. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Charles Rue. We'll be back right after this. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast.

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Because I can imagine that, I mean, this is a place where if you share a foreign movie with your friends, you get executed, you know, or you get punished. Yeah. So this isn't a light decision. Yeah. And I'm wondering how you went from being 10 years old to, you know, you're here in the United States. Obviously, a lot of things happen. I mean, you're growing up with your grandma. Did she raise you?

No, I mean, like, yeah, I went to, like, school. Like, but when I was 11, she couldn't take care of me anymore. When I was 11, my mom passed away. But, like, she's an old grandma. You know, she was like, like, 78, you know. you know, almost like eight years old. She couldn't take care of him anymore. So she sent me to my aunt's house.

And then I was living there about like a year. And then I wrote a letter to my father every single day saying like, hey, father, you know. Because like my aunt apparently knows where he's at in China. So what happened was like my father was in China selling drugs and he sold successfully. But he got backstapped. So somebody told on him. and then he got caught and he threw in the prison for four years. In China?

Yeah, in China. But your aunt knew that? Yeah, and she didn't tell your mom? She didn't tell my mom. Do you know why? I don't know why. Okay. Is this your mom's sister?

Yeah, it's, my mom's like old sister. Jeez. Wow. Yeah, and then when I got to my aunt's house, she was forcing me to write a letter to my father every single day, where like, 12 months. And then eventually my father wrote a letter's letter back to me saying, nothing like critical, nothing much, you know, but like, So he was just saying thank you so much, right?

But my aunt switched the letter saying, if you come to China. Wait, she changed the letter? Yeah, changed the letter. She physically changed it? Yeah, she forged it. Yeah, she forged it. Oh, that's pretty smart, I think. Oh, my God.

Put it back in the envelope and brought it to the government. Whoa, that is some ninja stuff. That's a gutsy move, man. In North Korea, she forged, okay, so she changed your father's letter to make it look like he was inviting you guys. Yeah, inviting. So the North Korean government would give you. a visa. Did it work? Wow. It worked. No kidding. Now she needed

money to travel, right? Now she needs, because she used everything to get a passport. Is your aunt hoping that all of you guys go to China? Just her. Just her. She was going to leave you behind. Some desperate shit here. Yeah, because my grandmother had a lot of friends in China.

So she's not going to China to look for my father, but she's going to look for her mother's friends in China. Because my grandmother worked for government. She has a translator between North Korean government and Chinese government and then she was going to China to find them you know not my father but she just needed a bridge connection you know so I was the connection which is my father in China but now she doesn't have any money to go to China so

she writes a blackmail letter to my father saying if you don't send me this much of money I'm gonna kill your child sell them to the black market as a meet or I'm gonna send him to orphanage bang and my father says it what What the heck? You know, my, yeah, what? Well, he didn't care before. He didn't care before, but, like, he's like, I'm alive, you know, but, like, now, like, I'm, my life is in threat. And he knows that, like, because, like, I send him, like, my photos, like, every single month to my father.

You were writing him for a year, you said. Yeah. About a year, 12 months. About a year. So now he's sort of connected again to your story. Yeah, connected again about, like, what I'm doing, how I'm doing. Do you know where he was at this time? He's in China.

So how close to the border is he? He's really close to the border. Very close to the border. Yeah, he's living border region. And where is your city you were living in with your aunt? It's right next to Pyongyang. It's next to Pyongy. So that's not close to the border.

Uh-uh. It's like a far. It's really far. It's really far. Two days train trip. Got it. Yeah. And then my father says it and like, oh, my son is in risk.

I need to save him. So he sends two stepbrothers who are like 20 years older than me. They were living in North Korea. I didn't know. This is his other family. Yeah, he's older family. So he sends like this stepbrother. to rescue me from my aunt's house.

When I was 13, he comes. He picks me up from my aunt. Yeah, my stepbrother. And he brings me to his house. And a year later, when I was 14, I didn't. So, like, that time, like, before I escaped to China, that time I was watching, like, because my stepbrother was Chinese, and he was bringing a lot of foreign medias, you know, from China to North Korea.

He was going back and forth? Yeah, he was going back and forth. He has a passport. So he can move around as much more than once. Yeah. Whenever he wants. Just have money. So you lived with them for a year?

For a year, yeah. And then that time, like, I watched foreign medias, you know, and, like, James Bond, you know, 007, Bad Boys 1, like, Salt Korean Dramas, you know, having all those, like, like, freedom thoughts, you know. Yeah. Freedom thoughts. Yeah. Is this the first time you've seen foreign movies? Yeah. That's actually the first time.

Me watching, like, I mean, like, I watched a lot of, like, Soviet Union movies, so propaganda movies, you know, Chinese, like. Chinese like mota tong. Yeah, but like Will Smith is a million times cooler than Right, exactly. So this is new for you. Yeah, this is like completely new for you. What was that like?

Like at first, like I didn't believe, you know, like, is this true? Like, I mean, like, wait, like, how is this possible, you know? Like, if it's not a setup, you know, like, all I've learned about Americans are like with long nose, you know, long chins, like hairy face, you know, looks like a wolf, you know, trying to, like, invade North Korea all the time. Because that was what you were taught in school. Yeah, that was what I was taught in school, right? But, like, watching the foreign media, like, they're so cool, you know, like stopping the bad guys, you know, like, you know, like, getting the money, getting paid, you know.

I'm like, wait, what? I was, like, mind-blowing, you know, I wanted to be there, you know. I wanted to, like, experience that. So what goes through your mind when you see that? Is there a period where you think somebody lied to me? Or did you think that the movie was lying? At the moment, I thought movie was lying. You thought the movie was lying.

This is a movie set. Yeah, it's a movie set, right? Yeah, it's a movie set, right? But when I was 14, I gave my first opportunity to escape North Korea and go to China to my father. Because my father wanted to see me. So my brother buys a broker in North Korea. And then the broker buys the guard, the river guards. He's like a people smuggler.

Yeah, people smuggler. And the plan is for you. your father to get you to China. Yeah. Plan is to get me to China. Because the letter that your aunt sent him, right? Yeah, but I mean, like, that's why my stepbrother came in and he saved me from my auntas and he took care of me, right?

But my father wants to see me now when I was 14. So whose idea was it to escape? My father's idea. Now I was, so I went to China, right? So my stepbrother buys broker and then my stepbrother, then the broker buys the security guard and then like, okay, what time, you know, during, What day, what time, you know, like small kids going to go to China and he's going to come back with money. You know, so don't shoot him.

And then I went to Reaper, pretending I'm taking a shower, you know. You went to the river? Yeah, I went to pretend like you're just going for a train. Yeah, so it's going for a swim. This is the river on the border? Yeah, it's the Yellow. Yeah, it's the Yellow River. Okay.

So you're far, but you have to take a train to get there. Yeah, I had to take a train for like two days. Is that hard to take a train? No, I mean, like my brother bought, like, you know, tickets and everything. Okay. You know. So you guys can move. somewhat freely to the border.

Is this a summertime? Because I would imagine you come in the winter like, I'm just going for a swim. What are you talking about? 20 below. Yeah, it was 2008 June. Going down the river, you know, I was like, I'm going to the humbling, you know, like, ah, ha, ha, you know, like, ah, I'm just going to go to swim here, you know. And I was taking a bath, you know, like, was this the plan?

What's the plan? They told you to do this. Are you alone? Yeah, I was alone. Yeah. How did you know where to go? Because, like, the broker told me like a couple of days. like in advance like okay so close it that way that's the shallow yeah he gave me directions yeah he gave

me direction so he's like a coyote yeah it's like yeah yeah he's in a way yeah he's like a coyote yeah and then yeah and then i crossed the river and then like okay so some guy with a hat white hat and a blue shirt and the jeans and like what kind of shoes that's your father go find him so your dad was supposed to meet you yeah so my dad was in the older side of the china with a taxi cab right so as soon as I crossed the river I saw my dad and I got into a taxi cab and when we drove straight hotel. I slept one night. And then the next day, we took like 12 hours bus to a little bit inside of China.

The first night. Yeah. You're in the hotel. Yeah. You're in China. Yeah. You've never been outside of... I've never been outside of China.

What was that like? I mean, to be honest, I'm just lying down on a hotel, hotel room. It didn't feel that. I didn't feel like, where am I? But were you like, what the hell, what the hell, dad? Yeah. This is some bullshit. Yeah.

I've been stuck in this hell hole for a decade and a half. But, you know, like, as a child. You know, like you never met your father, right? But you don't feel like that's your father, you know. It's like a stranger, you know, like strangers. So what's an awkward? It was kind of awkward, but like he was really good to me. He was nice.

Yeah, he was really, really nice. You know, he was trying to like get me anything. And first time in a farmer's market in China, right? I set a banana. And I was like, oh, yeah, I've seen, you know, one of those in like the cartoons in North Korea. Yeah. I picked it up. I bite it off.

I just try to add it with a peel on, right? And my dad just laughing his ass off like, you shouldn't supposed to eat like that. I should peel it off. And I was like, I was tasting it. It's so bitter. Yeah, it's not good with the peel on. Why is people eating banana?

I don't understand, you know? But yeah, that was like first like a stupid thing that I could just see you be like, oh man, oh man, these things are overrated. It looks so much better in the cartoon. Yeah. The next day. Yeah. you guys go out? Yeah, so the next day, we arrived at my father's place, right? 12 hours away.

I got to my dad's place and then I feel like I was like a child again, you know, because a lot of times, like, I had to grow up without faster than any other kids because of, I had to, you know, I had to be the man, you know, like I had to be, like, I had to grow up to nurse my mom and live on my own, live on the street for a while. So you were homeless for a while? I was homeless to, because like, when I was living with my aunt, my aunt and my uncle, they fought, like, a lot every single night. Well, she sounds like a horrible person. Yeah.

She blackmailed your dad trying to kill you, so, yeah, no kidding that she didn't get along with her husband either. So the argument that ended up, like kicked out, you know, from the house. Half the year, I was living on a street. What is that like? I know we're moving backwards, but this is important. Yeah, it's put a pin in being in China with your dad and go back to being homeless in Korea. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, being homeless in North Korea, it's not easy, you know?

It's like life or death, you know? Like even though you have a candy in your mouth, you know, but somebody come, punch me in the, like, cheek and just take it. You have something, you know? You have something. But you have to, like, spend it or you have to eat it as soon as possible. Otherwise, they're going to come in, they're going to take it away. Take it. Yeah.

And you were, what, 12? 13? Yeah, I was like 12. 12 and a half. Wow. It's always like a fight. It's like a war, you know? You have to be prepared to like throw a punch like every single day.

Because like there's always a guy trying to come to like me and like trying to take the things away from me. Either I don't have anything, right? Or they just don't come to you and just they're going to beat the shit out of me. Where are you living on the street? On the street, yeah, on the street. Like a train station. Like a boiler by boiler.

Oh, you have a boiler to stay warm? Yeah, to stay warm because it was winter. It was winter. Oh, my God. That's rough. Korean winters are no joke. Yeah. If you pee, right, it's going to froze from the bottom.

If you spit out the saliva, you know, it's kind of... It freezes mid-air. Yeah. It's that cold, yeah. Is this common homelessness in North Korea? Yeah, it's a lot common. So there are a lot of other people in this area? Yeah, right?

So it's really competitive, you know? Wow. So it's other people without homes, as you put it? at doing battle with to stay alive? Okay. Let's go back to China. Go back to China. You've already been through all this stuff.

Yeah, I've already been through all this stuff. So was it a relief then to be in China? Yeah, it was just so much relief because I feel like I can have like my future, right? I can have my dream, you know? And my dream promised the hope, you know, and hope promised tomorrow. What was your dream at that point? Just living my life normal. To have a normal life?

Yeah, have a normal life. Anywhere? Anywhere. But North Korea? Just not North Korea, you know, because. I'm going to like, you know, a PC bar, and it's like an arcade, you know. I'm going to arcade.

Yeah, PC bar. You know, like, I go there, you know, I play computer, you know, and I play like arcade, you know, street fighter, King of Fighter, you know, and all those kind of stuff that older kids do, you know, are playing arcade. So I was living the dream in China, right? I was like, I was so happy, you know, and, like, because, like, I don't have to back

for a place to sleep overnight, or I don't have to beg for a food from the strangers on the street, right? I was living my life and freedom for a moment. But unfortunately, Chinese government didn't recognize North Koreans as refugees, and they captured me. The Chinese citizen reported me to the government. Somebody in your neighborhood?

Yeah, somebody in my neighborhood. How did they find out? Because, like, they've been keeping eye on, like, new, like, rivals, right? And then they see a kiss, smoky, dark, you know, because, like, skinny. Chinese kids are fat, you know. They're super, like, pale because they, like, pale, because they, they, even eating really well. But I'm really dark, short.

You know, like, they could tell by my eyes, you know, like, I'm holding like, and try to turn us to something, you know. Always alert, you know, because, like, Chinese kids, like, they don't do that. Yeah, I stood out, like, pretty, like, strong. So the neighbor, other people in the neighborhood, yeah. picked up on that? Yeah, they picked up on it.

And they called the police. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then nine months later, in 2009 January, police came to her house with a gun, like, with a pistol. There's like, I think like eight or nine of them. And then like when I saw, when I look down, there's like a black horse just like surrounded like the apartment. That was scary.

Like these guys, you know, there's just barges into a room having a gun in their hand and like looking on the rooms. And then they handcuffed me and then they took me to the jail. How old were you? I was, I was 15. Was your dad there? My dad was there, but he couldn't do anything because he could. He has no way of proving that I'm his son. Oh, man.

Yeah. And, you know, I remember the day I lost all hope. You know, I was in the back of a Chinese police truck, changed, like, a couple of other North Koreans. You know, in Chinese jail. I'm in a Chinese jail right now with, like, a couple of all the North Koreans. And, like, the living situations, you know, like, the people that how they fed us, it's like,

they fed us with, like, the food from leftover. you know, food, like leftover food from the guards. And then, like, finally it's a deporting day. So I was in the Chinese year for like two weeks. And then it's the day that finally we're getting deported to North Korea. And, you know, like we turned a corner and I could see the North Korean border in the distance. And I was so scared and afraid that I might be in big trouble, you know, as soon as I step back into North Korea. I knew that, you know, I'm going to be in big trouble.

And then the truck wrote us stop at the border and the guards were screaming at me to get off the truck. And, you know, I was so scared. They were like treating us like an animal. And that, yeah, so they, I was, I got onto another, like a Jeep with a couple of the North Koreans. And then we got transported. Sorry. Okay. Transport.

Yeah, transport it's like other, like interrogation, first interrogation park, right? And then, yeah, I got to the first interrogation. interrogation part because like there are so many people so many not current defectors that are in the jail they have no place to put us in right so I had to stand right in front of the sale right in 2000 2009 January and then like you have to know like if you get cut in China if you get cut nearby the border it's fine and I'm like oh they're like So after the interrogation, right, or if you're trying to go to China for just looking for the food in the border, that's fine.

You know, like, oh, yeah, just go to the labor camp for four years. You're fine. I wouldn't throw that in the fine column, four years of labor camp. I mean, yeah, that's like the punishment, right? They don't kill you, right? But, like, just like basically a death sentence, you know, because it's really hard to survive in a labor camp for four years. But if you get caught deeper in. inside of China, which is Mongolia, you know, which is like around like really south of China,

that's a red flag, which means you're moving towards somewhere, which is going to South Korea, right? So it's worse. It's worse. Now, you were 12 hours away from the border. But I was still within, you were still within, like, the safe range, you know, safe region. And then I was standing right in front of the sail, and this one lady, she bites of her vein, and she bleat to death.

She bit her wrist open? Yeah, bit her wrist wide open. Because, like, she got caught in Mongolia. And the government knows that she's trying to defect to, like, assault Korea. So they wouldn't let her go. I heard, like, a story about her, like, from the fellow, like, prisoners. Like, she was there for a long time. And she was getting interrogated, like, every single day for a couple of hours.

They wouldn't let her sleep. They wouldn't, like, let her eat. And then the office got cleared out. So in the jail, there is no room in the jail. So they couldn't press in the jail. So they put me in a separate office. So this is a boybu. Boebu is stands for secret police in North Korea.

Oh, secret police. So do you even know where that was? Yeah, it's in a Namyang. It's right across the border. Yeah. It's near the border. There's like a special place. Yeah, special like a place.

Yeah. Interrogation part. And then I'm sitting in the office. and across the room I hear scream you know like guys like oh my God my legs are broken oh please forgive me

my legs are broken my ribs are broken I'm bleeding to that you know I'm like hearing all the screams you know and I'm like terrified like that's gonna be me they're gonna kill me but luckily I was only 15 I didn't get bitten

beaten yeah that bad Just like slap me, you know, kick me, you know, stomach for a couple of times. What are they trying to do? Are they trying to punish you? No. Are they trying to get information from you? They try not get information from you.

What sort of stuff do they want to know? They ask about everything. Like everything, like literally everything. What did you do in China? What did you eat? What did you feel? What did you see? What did you feel?

Yeah. What did you feel in China? Like, okay, so you've seen like a couple of social medias, you know, how did you feel about that? that. You know, like, you've seen, like, people talking about Kim Jong-il. How do you feel about that? Like, you've seen a lot of, like, cars. You've seen a lot of, like, buildings, a lot of, like, buildings. How do you feel about that? What are they trying to suss out in those questions? Like, I learned that Kim Jong-il is bad. That's the things that they want to get. Because if you, if you say that, then they're going to punish you more. They're going to kill us, yeah. If you say that, if you say that, if you say that, but I have to say, like, I know what to say, you know, like, I know, like, Because the things that I've seen in China, but I couldn't say. You knew how to lie. Yeah, I know how to like.

So what do you say? Like, oh, I saw capitalism and how it ruins people. I mean, what do you say? I mean, I saw, yeah. So, like, the bad boys too was not as good as bad boys one. I've learned that Will Smith is awesome, but not as awesome as King Yil. Those Soviet movies. He's the badass, you know.

He should be in Bad Boys three. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, I was a child, right? So they didn't really ask me that questions like a lot like multiple times. They just like, let's just get it over with. They were trying to get it over with. Yeah. And you're 15.

I was 15. I was like, oh, yeah, I was just living with my dad. Oh, I was just, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. And they're like, what do you mean?

You don't know? And just get up and punch me in the face for a couple of times. And then like 20 days. I was in there. You're there for three weeks. Yeah, I was in there for three weeks. Yeah, I was in there for three weeks. Charles, I just have to ask you, you seem really brave, I guess, is the word, and smart.

Do you think you were always that way? Or had you been through so much stuff already that you sort of knew how to handle a situation like that? I mean, like, when it comes to your life or death, I think that's like in people's instinct. You know, first thing that they would do is like trying to protect your life. Sometimes I heard like people like, like when they, in a dying situation like, oh, please kill me. You know, I don't think that's something that they would say. They're like, oh, please save me.

I don't know. I think maybe it's in my blood. I know, but I believe that everyone could do it. Like, it's written in DNA. You know, it's written in code, you know, so you can't escape that. But I think, yeah, if it comes to life or death, you will do it. So at that point, you were just, you knew you wanted to survive. So you were doing whatever you had to do.

Yeah, whatever I had to do, right? You know, most of like 15-year-old kids, you know, American kids are in sophomore in high school, right? Yeah. You know, they go to, like, sports practices, you know, they're busy with, like, sports practices, you know, and, like, doing everything, you know, sophomore thingy. Yeah, the hardest thing in your life are wind sprints on the football team. Yeah, and a little acne or something. Yeah, some... My Wi-Fi is so slow.

Yeah, I cracked my phone screen. And you're in a secret police. I was in a labor camp. So right after 20 days, I got transported to a re-educational detention center. Are they actually teaching you things there? Are they just punishing you there? They are brainwashing us, right? So what you do is you work there as long as they want you to work there, right?

And then at night, they'll force us to recite the rules of the law. camp, right? So at age of 15, I was in a detention center working like 18 hours, I don't know, 12, 16, 18, eating like 50, 150 kernels of corn a day for nine months. You know, I thought they're going to release me pretty soon because, like, I was only 15. And that's what they told me, too, you know, and I was told that I'll be, I'll be there for only a couple of weeks because I was so young, right? I was only 15. I worked really hard for a couple of weeks, right? Because I didn't want it to get bitten again. Yeah.

Right? And months passed, and I was not released. And that detention center, I was only allowed to eat 150 kernels of Korn a day, right? And I started to lose weight, and I could see my rib cage. And I had to do, like, whatever I had to do to survive. And one morning, we were marching in our roads at work site, and on the side I saw a dry vomit. Dry vomit? Dry vomit on the road. Somebody, like, I don't know, somebody's sick or somebody drunk.

I threw up, and then I saw a dry rice in the vomit. And I was so hungry that I got on my hands and knees and began picking the rice up with the dry vomit. So you picked the rice out of the dry vomit? Yeah. And I eat it. Oh, wow. It was like a sand, a dirt, you know. And I didn't stop beating the rise,

one minute, rise until the beating from the guards were too unbearable. And at night, the guards were storm into ourselves and forced us to recite the rules of the camp. And if you misquoted, even one rule, they would, like, force to stand all night reciting the rules until work began the next morning. Oh, my God. What are the rules of the camp?

I would never talk about life outside of North Korea. I'll never talk about bad things about Kim Jong-you, what I see, how I feel. I'll never talk about anything that I saw in China. I will just live my life like a bug. These are the rules of the camp? Yeah, you have to know these rules. You have to memorize those rules. How many are there?

There's like, I can't remember. There's like 40. So it's a list of 40 sort of principles, right? Yeah, principles. Like, there's a wall. Like that, it's like a wall. A poster on the wall. Yeah, post on the wall.

That's like the size is twice. is because this room. And then there's like 20 people, 30 people, you know, lying in the floor. This room is like 10 by 15. And there's 20 people in there? Double us this size. Oh, double as this. Okay.

Yeah, double us this room. Yeah. And, like, we sit in a row. And then we face those, like, the posts. And then we recite, oh, like, I'll never do this. I'll never do this. You know, I'll never talk about life outside of North Korea. I'll be a good citizen. I'll never escape, you know.

Is this what they mean by re-education? Yeah, re-education. They're basically trying to train you. Yeah, trying to train us and trying to work us off. Right. And what's going through your mind while you're reciting those principles? I was starving. You were just trying, again, trying to survive? Yeah, trying to survive.

Was there any part of you that thought maybe I'll actually follow these principles or in your mind you're like, this is bullshit? This is bullshit. You knew it was bullshit, even though you were hungry. was so angry. I was like hangary. It's like a new level of anger. It's like I'm going to get the hell out of here and I'm going to escape again. I'm going to escape until I'll die trying again. Whoa. In the camp you thought of it. In the camp, right? Because like we're working every single day for nine months, no rest from 7 a.m. to whenever they say stop, it could be like 1 a.m. It could be 12 a.m. It could be 11 p.m. Like no matter what, right? Eating 50 pieces of normal per meal, right? So they have a job for counting those corns, right? And for nine months, nothing else. They have a job? Yeah. Somebody's job is a count. Yeah, somebody just counts. Yeah, just pissed you off. Yeah. And then the guards, right, we're working in a field, whatever it is,

we are building a concrete, you know, we are building a building, you know, we're farming, we're constructing, we are on a forest, cutting them the tree. They tell us every day, you escape again. We don't care, but don't get caught. Guards, like, yeah. Yeah. Don't get caught. If you get caught, you're going to die. This is what happens if you get caught. We can't stop you. We can prevent you from escaping it. But we can do these things to you once you get caught, right? And I'm listening that every day. And like, the main principle is like, if you escape it, if you get caught, they're dead. Basically, they're dead. So,

like, don't have that thought. That's what they're trying to tell us. But in your mind, somehow that got translated as, I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going to do it anyway. Because, like... Because this place is terrible. Yeah, I mean, that's like basically everyone's mind. Everybody in the camp felt that way. Yeah, everybody felt in that way.

Because, like, there was, like, one another, like, weak guy. You know, I was, like, I was the youngest in the, like, detention center, right? And there is, like, another, like, weak, you know, like, there's always, like a head and there's a tail, right? And I was below tail. But the tail always telling me, like, you know, like, you know, I was. I'm going to get out of here. And I'm going to do it okay. I'm going to do it again.

I'm going to do it again. And then a lot of people actually feel that way too. And then, funny enough, I was in our international refugee camp in Southeast Asia. And then I met this dude from the detention center. You ran into somebody? Yeah. Yeah. Ran into someone.

Because I remember that guy because he stole my shoes. Right? Because I had a pretty good shoes. When I got into the detention center, I had... That's unreal. Oh, from China. Yeah, from China. So he wanted your Chinese shoes.

Yeah, so it was really new, you know, and it was really, like, comfortable. But that guy saw my shoes, and he liked it. He's like, can I have the shoes? I'm like, no, you can't. Like, what am I going to wear? You know, like, you can wear mine. And his shoes, like, fell apart. And I'm like, no, you know, but he took it anyway.

And then he told me his story much later on. Like, yeah, your shoes helped me a lot. So while he was, you know, doing the interrogation, right, he stole a paperclip and he swallowed it. Oh. Right. And then he went to the bathroom. He put it out. And then he kept it, right?

He kept the paper clip. And then while, like, he's done working at the, I don't know, he's, like, he's stayed for like a year in a detention center. While he was, like, like, transferring to, like, other facility, other, like, transferring to his, like, hometown. He was handcuffed around. the table, the train, right? And then while the police officer, right, they're a police officer who's like moving them. While they fell asleep, he took out the paperclip. And he picked his handcuffs?

Yeah, he picked his handcuffs and he escaped. Wow. Right? He escaped. He escaped. And then he skipped China again. And he worked in China about a year. And then at the same time, I'm not going to spoil. Anyway.

How are you going to come back to that? Yeah, I'm going to come back to that. Yeah. You're already like, this is the. Best story. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then,

incredible. And then nine months later, I was finally released from the labor camp from the detention center because I have lost so much weight that I was worthless worker. You know,

I couldn't even lift my arm or even stand up, you know. I have, I was like, bones and skins. So there was no point. There's no point of keeping me, right?

So like one, one day, like this, the head of the detention center comes out and like, counting our heads, right? How many,

like, and then he's like screaming. and yelling at these kids, like these guards, right? What the heck are you guys doing? Send them home. We don't need them. You know, like, we don't need them to work for me, you know? Like, why aren't you doing your job?

You send those guys home. You know, you send those guys to, like, whatever they belongs, you know? And then next day, two police officer shows up, and then they took me away. Wow. What job were you doing in the camp? I was doing everything. I was doing, like, literally everything that adults do. What kind of work?

It's everything. Literally everything. What does that mean? Construction. Okay. Building bricks, building concrete, farming. So you're outside?

Outside. Always, like, we are always working outside of the camp, right? Let's say, for example, it's raining. You can't work. There's no work, right? Then you go, you're still working within campus, right? So there is a bunch of sandbags and bricks. Yeah, sandbags and bricks, right?

There's like a pile of sandbacks. And then you move the sandbacks point. A to B in the morning. And in the afternoon, you move that sandbag from B to A. Oh, they're just having you do work even worthless stuff just to keep you guys. How much of the work was meaningless and how much was actually supposed to accomplish something? Like 99% of the work that we did was actually building, you know, like constructions and farmings and real stuff.

Yeah, real stuff. And like one percent was like sometimes like it rains, you know. They just wanted to keep me busy. Yeah, keep us busy, you know, so that we don't think about, you know, like escaping again. You know, that's their method. There's 80 to 120,000 people in these labor camps. There's all different kinds of levels of labor camps, right? So the first level is reeducational training camp, right?

Is that what you were in? No. I wasn't at detention center. So that's another level. That's another level. That's like really, it's like a detention center for North Korean defectors. So where they get transferred to their hometown and they get judgment. and then they go to re-educational labor camp,

which is like a four years, right? And then there is like a re-educational and there is like a work, re-educational, like a labor camp for like six months or something. That's the lowest for six months. And then there is like a four years of a re-educational camp, and there is a political labor camp. Political labor camp is the highest.

You never get out of there. You're born there, you die there. I wasn't there. I'm not from political labor camp. but I'm in a North Korean Defector, like re-education or detention center. Okay. So I got out of there, and then I went back to my stepbrother's house. That was 2009 October.

So I was in the detention center for nine months. And then I spent, like, months trying to regain my strength. So you're about 16? I was around 16. Okay. But you have to know, there's like a, I was born in 1994, right? And then because like Korean age in United States is different because they count it one year old one year like no one year in their stud they're counted from the stomach right right so when you're born it's already one year. Oh, okay.

Right. And so you're really 15. Yeah, I was at the I was at the 15. Right. Actually when I got released. And then I spent like months trying to like regain my strength and after spending like months trying to regain my strength. And after spending like months trying to regain my strength. to find a job.

Without any money, it was like impossible to support, like myself. Was your stepbrother welcoming? He was welcoming. I mean, he was doing fine, but in 2010, there was a currency devaluation happened in North Korea. I'm not sure if you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it killed, like, thousands of people. Because the money that they were saving and running for their businesses just became worthless.

Exactly. So, like, a lot of, like, our neighbors, you know, committed suicide. because one day they had something, one day they don't have anything, and they have no hope of living. So my brother also old business, so I got kicked out. And then I had to support myself, so I needed to find a job. So I'm on your own again. I'm on my own. Do you have a place to live?

I don't, but I found it. Okay. Like where I'm from, like the coal mine is really popular. And I had to lie my age to get in there, right? So I'm like, oh, I'm 18, you know, like, I cannot work. I find it really ironic that they're concerned with child labor laws and literally no other aspect of them. And meanwhile, he just got out of a detention center slash labor camp. Yeah.

Yeah, you're old enough to go to a labor camp and be basically to work tortured, but you're too young to work in this coal mine. For a proper amount of time, yeah. But you got this job. I got this job. Did you just wander into a coal mine? Yeah. No. So I started working in a coal mine when I was paid only in rice.

six days a week I would enter the cold then put on to know the mine and most of the boys that are working in the mine were my age will push a thousand pound

steel cord cart miles into the mine you're pushing the mine cart so mine cold cart it's like empty cold cart it's already like thousand pounds a thousand pounds yeah because it's all metal

right right it's all metal and you guys are pushing it into the mine field so they're not mechanized they're not mechanized they're like they're like man Manual. Everything is manual.

Because, like, there's no power. And it's all young guys. Yeah, it's all like, 14. Yeah. So the youngest I've seen is like 12. 12. And then the oldest I've seen is like 80. 80 year old man.

Yeah. 80-year-old man. And they're paying you guys in rice. Yeah. Is that common? That's really common. Yeah. They don't pay us with like, but they provide housing.

They provide meals, three meals a day. Okay. And then at the end of the month, they will pay us 30 kilograms. of rice per month. So it's just slavery. It's like subsistence, basically. They're just keeping you fed and housed. Yeah, fed and housed, yeah.

So you were in the coal mine for how long? Yeah, for about a year, you know. And within that year, like, I have made a lot of friends, you know. I, you know, I was, like, hanging out with them, you know, having really good time, you know, like with, it's all like my age, you know. It's like, we were like at night, you know, we would go nuts, you know, we would drink, You know, we will party, you know. Where'd you get alcohol?

They feed us. Oh, they give you, right? They give you. Because, like, when you breathe cold in your lungs, the only thing that it could wash away is alcohol. I'm not sure about the science on that, but I'm pretty sure they're just getting you drunk so that you forget that you have coal dust in your lungs. Really? Yeah. I don't think, because when you swallow things, it doesn't go into your lungs.

But, like, when you breathe, right? Probably, it's like a disinfectant, though, maybe that's what they mean? I mean, I'm pretty sure they're just getting you drunk. so you don't complain about the fact that everybody's got... Either way, you guys didn't mind. Yeah, I'm really in mind. Yeah, you're 15. This is so wild.

So this was not a bad period for you, really. I mean, I know it's not ideal, but like... I feel like relatively, this is way better than getting tortured by guards at a camp. I'm guessing this was a step up for you. Yeah, this is a step up for me, but I lost a lot of friends. You lost a lot of friends. You lost him. Because the coal mine accident, you know, cave-ins, and like, sometimes the cold cart to flip, right?

And sometimes it would land on people. if you got out of the coal mine, right? And then sometimes my rain boots, it's leaking. So I can't tell it's a blood or it's a cold water, you know, because it's so sticky. It could be blood, you know? You know what I mean? Like, because like sometimes you'll land it on people. You'll crush people, you know, there's like people losing arms, legs because of the coal mine accidents.

You know, there's like a coal, right? Imagine like with a coal, you know, it's like five, you know, it's like five. kilograms, thousand kilograms of like cold, right, wet cold, right? And then plus thousand pound of a steel cold cart. So it's kind of a 2,000 pound. Imagine that kind of like heavy weight is landing on people. Like it'll just crush you. This is like a regular occurrence. It's not regular. It's not, it happened like often, you know, like caveings are really often because a lot of people want you to make money, you know, so they claim that they know how to set up the frame in the mine, but they really don't.

They just want to get paid more. If you know how to do that, they will pay you a little bit more. Right, they're trying to get out as much coal as possible. Yeah, right. Right. So, I'm assuming there are no, like, safety regulations. There's no such thing. Yeah, there's no such thing. It's like, as long as you have a helmet, like a flashlight, right. And you have a rain boots,

you have a glove. You're safe. That's the preparation. Go away, you know. So these guys, they're men, I'm assuming. Yeah, they're all men. No, no, I mean, like, there's women's too. There are women. A lot of Oh, okay. So men and women. You guys are hanging out after hours, drinking, you know, and partying, you know, watching movies, you know, and like. So you can watch movies at this point, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like illegally, you know, but coal mine is like the place where like every like, you know, like criminal, you know, like with like a bright mind that, you know, like people with like, oh, who want to party, you know, they come in, right? And then they bring like salt Korean dramas. They bring like foreign movies, you know. Wait, I'm sorry, why does coal mining attract former criminals in North Korea?

I mean, like, young millennials, you know, they do that a lot. They like that job? Yeah, they like that job because, like, they get paid, right? And they get paid rice, and then they can sell that rice, and then they can make money out of it, you know? So, like, for example, like, people without any family, it's really a good deal for them, you know, because I have no family to protect. I have no family to pay. I get fit, like three times a day.

right and i have like have a night off and then i get every single month i get 30 kilograms of rice and in north korea at the time like a per kilogram of rice was like 5 000 right so imagining you're selling 30 kilograms of rice and they're getting that as a cash that what you did that's what i did too you became an entrepreneur yeah entrepreneur yeah so you're like arbitraging your rice yeah yeah but at the same time like i had a lot of like memories of you know China, you know, being free, you know, and watching all those people, you know, like, injured, you know, and people who didn't make it out. And, like, I thought about it like, oh, my God, that's going to be me one day. Right, it's only a matter of time.

So sooner or later, I'm going to be like that. And, you know, I knew how hard, like, it is to escape North Korea without any money or food. And I knew that if I was caught, I could be killed this time because I'm, like, this is second time escaping, you know, so there is no mercy. but those kind of risks overweight at working in the dark coal mine every day until it was my turn to the limb or die right so which one is worth it yeah you're like do I stay here and possibly die or grow old doing this crazy job or do I try to get free yeah so while you're working at the mine and selling the rice to make a little extra money in the back of your mind you're already planning on like escaping so jason I know you weren't in the room

for this one what do you think so far oh my god this is one of those stories that anytime I'm having a bad day, feeling sorry for myself, thinking things are just so terrible. I'm just going to go back and listen to this because it could be so much worse. Right? Yeah. You've just finished part one here. Part two, there's more. There's plot twists galore.

This is just an incredible story. And I'll tell you, I had nightmares after doing this show. And so did Gabriel and so did Jen. We all had nightmares after this. It's just nuts. And it gets even more intense in part two. Great big thank you to Charles. He is going to be back with us in a couple of days.

part two. Ever wonder how I managed to book all these amazing guests on the show? It's always through my network, and I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six-minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. I know you think you'll do it later. Don't wait. Do it now. You can't kick that can down the road. You cannot make up for lost time when it comes to relationships and networking. The number one mistake I see people making is postponing this in not digging the well before they get thirsty. You have to dig the well before you get thirsty. Once you need relationships, you are too late. These drills are designed to take just a few minutes per day.

This is the stuff I wish I knew decades ago. It is not fluff. It is crucial. Find it all for free at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. By the way, most of the guests on the show, they actually subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us and you'll be in smart company. Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Charles so far. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, where I post videos and photos and fun stuff a lot these days. And don't forget, if you want to learn how to apply everything you heard here from Charles, make sure you go grab the worksheets, also in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. This episode was produced and edited by Jason DePhilippo. Show notes by Robert Fogarty.

Special thanks to Gabriel Mizrahi for joining me on this one. Worksheets by Caleb Bacon. booking back office and last minute miracles by Jen Harbinger and I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful, which hopefully is in every single episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. Lots more in the pipeline. Very excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen

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