The Jordan Harbinger Show - 869: Living in Strife Since Ending a Life | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Your boyfriend's not been the same since accidentally killing his mother's assailant. What can you do to help him? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Your boyfriend's not been the same since accidentally killing his mother's assailant. What can you do to help him through this difficult time? You never intended to be a father, but your girlfriend's unintentional pregnancy has you wondering what your ultimate role should be when the child is born. Your wife reveals detailed sexual fantasies when her memory-impairing sleep meds kick in, but shies away from acting on them when lucid. How can you communicate to find out what she really wants from you? How do you balance going the extra mile at work with protecting and valuing your time? How much is too much? A former two-time MLM victim shares how he was able to break free from their phony "inner circle" nonsense and what he's learned since. Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/869 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to checkout is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday, producer, The Capers and the Hollandeys on this Eggs Benedict of Life Advice, Gabriel Mizrahi. Okay.

So, like, salty? Is that what you're getting at? Smooth and salty. Salty, salty A.F. Brum. Now, you've got to live up to that nickname today. No Dulcet Tones Gabe today. I need petty aggrogabe only, please.

I'm bringing the salt. Okay, I will do my best. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long-form conversations with a variety of incredible people like former jihadis, drug traffickers, astronauts, four-star generals, rocket scientists. This week we had a skeptical Sunday episode on astrology.

Debunk in astrology. A lot of you reacting to that one. Not a big surprise there. a really good episode, if I do say so myself. We also had Rory Stewart. Really incredible guy. This guy walked across Afghanistan and Iran alone, essentially with a dog. And, well, he didn't die, which I thought, you know, would probably happen.

And we also announced our fundraiser in that For Give Directly, where we are going to help lift an entire village in Kenya out of poverty with your help. So definitely check out that episode. Really sharp dude. I mean, that's an understatement. We also had my friend Remy Adelaika. He is in Transformers. he's a former Navy SEAL, really incredible story, incredible guy.

Lots of good stuff this week. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious, sound bites, mercilessly roast Gabe for his appearance and or seemingly endless selection of off-gray spiritual gangster tank tops. There's not a single non-Venek in that house, is there? That's so true. I do prefer VNAC, but I have a few crewnecks and I can wear them if you'd like. You know, this reminds me, I took a single non-Venek in that house.

a class called blood feuds in law school and it's about Viking blood feuds. Okay. Really cool class, just one of the coolest classes, of course, that you could take in law school. And we learned all about Viking law and how they settled disputes back in the day. And one of the ways in which you were allowed to get a divorce is, I might butcher this a little bit, but it's if a man wears a shirt with the neck collar so low that his nipples are exposed, a woman can divorce him. So there was a time in one of these sagas or whatever.

where the wife sows her husband a shirt, and it's deliberately super low cut so that his nipple is exposed, and then she divorces him. And it's like, why would that be a thing? And the prevailing theory was you don't want to date a guy or be married to a guy who's wearing v-necks that are so deep that his nipples are exposed.

So just word to the wise. What are you trying to say that you want to break up as co-hosts? No, this is completely unrelated, Gabe. Just for the record, because I don't know what people are thinking, just listening to this, but my v-necks don't go that far down. No. But you are playing with fire. You are playing with fire. Like normal V-necks, dude. Normal?

If I wore that, my belly button would be dangling out through the neck hole. Come on. It's a conventional V-neck, dude. You're making it sound like I'm one of those guys. You remember, like, in the early 2000s, men would wear those v-necks that went, like, all the way down to their sternum. Yeah. Kind of like the belly button and back up. Oh, yeah. This is not one of those v-necks.

This is a normal, normal V-neck, but... Fair. All right. Whatever. I don't know if I believe that. I don't like the direction. We're heading. It's making me very uncomfortable. You don't like the direction this is going. No, that's fair. All right, before we jump in, and now that we've gotten that VNEC thing out of the way,

we have relaunched our newsletter for the show. It's been on hiatus, if you can even call it that, for half a decade or more. It's called We Bit Wiser, and it's a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week.

So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 800-plus episodes and apply it to your life, we dig into the back catalog, re-analyze the stuff. It's really interesting so far. A lot of good feedback. Jordan Harbinger.

slash news is where you can sign up. Let me know if there's any issues with that because it is new. I want to make sure that squeeze works and you're getting delivery and it's not in your spam folder, all that stuff. A few weeks ago in the Bradley Sherman episode about demographic collapse, I said something about legal versus illegal immigration along the lines of a lot of white people don't like illegal immigration because it's brown people immigrating.

Now, while that's true for some people who are racist, not everybody who doesn't like illegal immigration holds that opinion because they are racist. Of course, for me and many others, legal immigration is about showing respect to the system that you want to join. I also understand that desperation also makes good people do things they otherwise would not. So I just didn't want to paint with too broad a brush. I did get some emails about that. And I'm very thankful for people who engage with the content like that. It's a lot better to get an email from somebody who says, hey, I think you misspoke or, hey, do you really think this way or hey, there's a different reason for this versus just having somebody

explode in a review or in my inbox in a completely unhinged way. I got those too, of course, as I always do. But I appreciate everybody who engaged on that and the opportunity to, one, clarify and two, clarify my own thinking. Always a great benefit here of the show and the show's fans, which is you. So thanks to everybody who wrote in with compliments and or actual real constructive criticism. That wasn't totally unhinged. By the way, if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this show, they are getting rid of that app. August 29th, it will no longer be useful. So switch to a different app if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this podcast.

If you're on Android, I suggest podcast addict. It might not be as pretty, but it works really well. If you're on iOS, Apple, you should use Overcast, in my humble opinion, or Apple Podcasts. But definitely, no longer Stitcher, it will not update anymore in the next couple of months. So if you're using the Stitcher app, now is a good time to switch to a new podcast app. And if you have any problems with this, you're kind of boomer in terms of your tech. You don't know what to do. You can always email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com.

I will try to point you in the right direction, but the Stitcher app will no longer work for this show. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About two months ago, my boyfriend and I were going to spend a night together at my home. When he arrived, he realized he forgot his laptop for school and went back home to pick it up. He went totally dark. for the rest of the night, and never came back. The next afternoon, he called me and explained what happened. When he got home, he heard some weird noises from his mother's room. He peeked through the door

and saw her sitting on the ground bleeding. He barged in to find a shirtless man with a belt towering over her. This man was his mother's date, and turned out to be an abuser. My boyfriend jumped the man and knocked him unconscious. He broke four fingers on one hand, and the man was put into a coma because of the severe head trauma my boyfriend inflicted on him. Now, my boyfriend has never been a violent person. He never even raised his voice to me, and I've never seen him take any violent action outside of Muay Thai, which he's been doing for four years. He's not a giant, muscular, intimidating guy.

Overall, he's a pretty chill dude. The next few days were hell. The abuser's family got involved, and this whole thing turned into a legal case. I went to see him the following weekend, and he seemed so apatholic. He hadn't gone to university or done any sports that week, and I felt he barely noticed I was there. The following week, the abuser died due to the traumas. So, man, this got very real.

So this otherwise nice, normal guy inadvertently killed the guy trying to protect his mom. And I feel really bad for this dude. And I know I should feel bad for the dead guy, but I don't. Because he was an abuser, and I kind of feel like this guy had it coming. but, you know, whatever. I'm sure we'll get to that. All right, carry on.

Now he barely leaves his home, doesn't talk to most of his friends, and doesn't feel like the same person. He started blocking people who asked too many details or call him a murderer. He's calmly told me that he understands these people and that, quote,

most people won't feel comfortable next to a killer, unquote. But he also told me he doesn't regret doing it and that that man probably deserved worse. Bingo. It's been two months now. We don't talk about the event anymore. he's gone on academic leave.

He's a bit more accessible now and has been working out a lot at home as his Fight Academy asked him not to come back until everything was sorted out. He doesn't want to talk about the legal case but said he's not worried about it anymore as it was self-defense and we have a good lawyer, in his words. His friends too say hanging out with him is weird,

like they felt he wasn't there. I want to help him, but this person I was once so close to now feels like a stranger to me, to the point where I get a bit scared around him. I tried everything to make him better, but I feel like I've exhausted my options, and at this point, I'm not sure he even really appreciates my company anymore. What should I do? Should I keep being treated like a nobody while helping him recover from this? Or should I just

accept that he's been permanently changed by this event? Signed, stuck in a thriller, with this unnatural born killer. Oh, man, what an insane story. Wow, your boyfriend, he's through something truly extraordinary. I mean, this is, it's like something from a movie. It's one of those insane, life-defining events that just completely change the way you view the world and the way that you view yourself. And part of me is really sorry

that he went back home that night to get his laptop, but of course, the other part of me is so glad that he did so he could save his mother from this monster. It sounds like Gabe, the guy was whipping mom with the belt. It sounds like it unclear if that was like part of the ritual or if he was just like a monster. It was just like beating her at the house. I don't know.

I'm a little confused about that, actually. Because his shirt was off, which is weird. And then he has the belt. So it's like maybe they were hooking up. And then he just, but then he's like beating her up. I'm so confused by that. I thought that letter was going somewhere else. I thought he was like, ah, don't I unsee this?

Either way, it sounds like you crossed a line. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I doubt he walked in there and was like, I'm going to kill this guy for no reason. Like he probably saw more than that and just we're not getting all the details. I'm sure the mother's story corroborated that or he'd be super worried about going to jail slash already be there. Right. So the fallout from that evening is obviously huge.

And even if he's not being prosecuted criminally, which I hope he isn't, if it really was self-defense, it's unclear from your letter if he is or if the guy's family getting involved means it's a civil case. It sounds like maybe this isn't even in the United States. So I have no legal experience here to offer either way. But he has to live with this very heavy burden of having killed someone, even if it was accidental and for what sounds like a damn good reason. And that is, well, I don't know if I have the words for the psychological toll of that.

I can't even imagine how I would be coping with something like this. I'd like to think I'd be strong and feel secure that I did the right thing. But if I'm being honest, the whole experience would probably rock me as well. Sure, sure. Your boyfriend's not a violent guy, like you said, quite the opposite. Although it sounds like the Muay Thai to kickboxing made him really powerful. And taking someone's life like this, it might just eat away at a normal, gentle person. And I'm sorry that he's going through that, really. That's what it comes down to

and that it's affected you and your relationship too. It's very sad and your feelings make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I don't know how much you can do to change things in the short term. I can hear how badly you want to help your boyfriend, how painful it is to feel like he's a stranger or estranged from you. And it speaks to how much you care for him, how badly he probably needs your support. but right now, I think you need to listen to what your boyfriend is communicating to you and accept him for where he is right now, even if that is massively hurtful and disappointing to you. Now, I'm not saying you should leave him or stop talking, you know, don't block him on social media or whatever that kind of stuff is.

We don't know what's going through your boyfriend's head. It sounds like you don't either, and that's also making all of this a little more muddy and difficult. And I wish, of course, that he could be a little more open with you about what he's feeling and what he wants from you right now, but he might not be that guy and he might not even know. And part of this whole crisis might be discovering that he's not that guy, which is another interesting layer to all this.

Right. This might be new information she didn't know, and maybe he was always kind of guarded or shut down. She just didn't know how much that was the case until there was this huge experience that he couldn't let her in on. But look, for all we know, he might appreciate that you're sticking around and continuing to try to support him,

and he just can't express that very well. So what I am saying is your task right now is to make peace with the fact that your boyfriend is working his way through an objective trauma and that his method and timeline, it's not necessarily going to align with yours. And that what he's going through right now says a lot more about him than it does about you. It's not like you're not doing enough or whatever. Right. Like he said, even though he thinks the guy deserved it, he also thinks of himself as a killer.

I mean, just imagine what that would do to a person, especially somebody who's not violent. Yeah, I kind of disagree with it. A killer to me is somebody who breaks into somebody else's house and kills them, not somebody who goes in and finds his mom getting beaten by some guy and then kicks the guy, and he happens to die. But that tells you how he's thinking about this evening. It does. Yeah.

The label, of course, is going to come with a lot of pain. He is going through it right now. And also, people's ability to handle stuff like this, it often comes with age. I vaguely remember reading that younger veterans suffer from PTSD at far higher rates than older ones. And if I recall correctly, it's because they have some pre-existing vulnerability. Because I think the idea is when they're younger, you generally have fewer inner resources to cope with difficult life events. Your identity, really, as a human, is still kind of being formed, right? Was right now, if I kill someone, I'm not like, I'm that person.

I have 43 years of not being that person. if you're 23, you're like, I just became an adult, and this is this thing that I did, and it's the biggest thing I've done as an adult, and oh my God, this is who I am as an adult. This is me as a person. So maybe that explains some of his response. Could be, and I think he's even younger than that

because she said he's in university. So this guy could be 19. He could be 20 years old. It's, yeah, it's a defining event. Now, I don't know how much you guys have explicitly talked about what he needs from you right now, where you guys stand. I'm getting the sense that you haven't maybe done that

because you're kind of in the dark here and you're trying to guess how he really feels. So it might be a good idea to approach this more directly with him. It has been two months. You guys are still talking. When the moment feels right, I think it's perfectly okay to say, listen, you know, I love you. My heart goes out to you right now.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. And look, I'm honestly happy to make it all about you right now. But I just have to say all of this has left me pretty confused about how I can be most helpful to you and what you want for me, whether you want me in your life. You know, none of this is your fault. But I feel like you're a bit of a stranger these days. That makes me a little scared sometimes.

And it would mean a lot to me if you could tell me where you are right now and what you want so I can know how to show up for you. You know, so do you want me close? Do you want me around? Do you want a little space? Like, what do you feel you need for me right now? Just talk to me about this. My hope is that your boyfriend can take you up on that invitation to talk rather than just

shutting down. And then hopefully, based on what he says, you can take that data and make a decision that feels fair to both of you. And if he says, hey, honestly, I just think I need some time alone. Then I would take him out his word. Even if he actually needs her support right now and doesn't realize it, you know, he might push her away and be like, damn, that was my only place I was getting support. I don't know.

This is tough. This might be a dance between respecting his wishes and gently pushing to give him what she feels he needs but can't really ask for. But ultimately, yes, if he says, look, I cannot be close right now and I need some space to work through this in my own way, I think she does need to accept that. I don't know, Gabe. Maybe she just needs to sit him down and burst out crying about how she doesn't even know him anymore. Just make it all about her. There we go.

Perfect. I don't see how that could backfire. Yeah. Okay. At a certain point, she just needs to accept her boyfriend for wherever he is. I think so, yes. Okay. And that could be really hard because deep down she's like, you killed a guy.

You need someone like me looking out for you. I still love you. And he's like, no, I'm just going to, like, zone out. Well, it's like we talk about a lot. Acceptance often feels like failing. It feels like giving up. And that's painful. And in her case, it might mean giving up the idea that she can save him, or that she occupies a certain position in his life, or that their love is more powerful than this

terrible thing that he just went through, or that he's going to come back and be the guy he was before all of this, which it might not be at this moment in time anyway, possible. So she keeps trying and pushing and showing up because the pain of trying feels easier than the pain of accepting him where he is and letting him go. Right, so she's confronting the limit of her power in an extreme situation. And that's, I mean, it's brutal for anybody to go through that and do that, to have that level of introspection. So do you keep being treated like a nobody, as you put it, while you help your boyfriend

recover? I would say, if you feel like a nobody, that's something I would pay attention to. And I know things are kind of all about him right now, but there are two of you in this relationship. So either he acknowledges how his response to all of this is affecting you. or if he can't really do that right now or he doesn't want to change to accommodate you, then you get to decide whether you want to stay in a situation that leaves you feeling like a nobody. And the answer to that might very well be, no, I do not.

It might be. And who knows, maybe they're meant to part ways here for reasons that are being laid bare by this event. Or maybe they find their way back to each other in a few months or in a year or whatever when he's worked through some of this some more. With a therapist, I would hope, I just want to get that in there. or somebody else who's gone through this experience and is willing to open up about it and share their process. There might be a lot of value

if he talks to somebody who killed somebody by accident and self-defense and they're like, hey, it gets better, my life isn't ruined because of this and the idea that you're a killer is not sure. I mean, hearing that from a credible source might do something for him. I don't think he's going to ultimately process

all of this that well without some help, especially if he's young. Again, it's his work to do. She can't do that for him. but it might be something else she can encourage him to do. I completely agree. And should you just accept that he's been permanently changed by this event?

Well, you don't know if he's been permanently changed. My guess is that this tragedy will probably stick with him. It'll definitely shape who he is. But he has a lot of control in the long term over the meaning that he makes out of this event. But that takes time. So I would encourage you to just accept that your boyfriend is different right now. You don't know what the future or him will look like.

And that's not really under your control, not entirely your business. Your business is deciding what kind of relationship you're willing to be in with him at this very confusing, difficult point in time now. I agree with that. I think it's just one more thing she has to admit she's powerless over, which is knowing how he is going to turn out as a result of this. Which is so painful and so maddening. Yeah.

In the meantime, I hope you and your boyfriend find a way to help each other understand how you're both dealing with this, so you can make a decision together. And we're sending you a big hug, wishing your boyfriend the best with this legal case, of course. That's the last thing he needs to deal with right now is wondering if he's going to go to jail. Personally, the dude saved his mom. He took out an abuser.

And while I'm all like, let's have empathy for everybody, if somebody's beating your mom up with a belt, like put him under ground. Look, I've got to believe in a world where he doesn't get punished for doing that. But what a world this is where something like that can happen to a kind and normal person.

But thankfully he was there. who knows what would have happened to his mother. And then does he blame himself for not going back to get his laptop? Because if I had been home, she wouldn't have, you know, this could have been so much worse than an abuser getting taken out of the ecosystem. I try to put this politely without being gross. But folks, God forbid you ever have to act in self-defense. But if you do, then, yes, they hit you first and you never hit them after they went onto the ground.

Not legal advice. I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. I just happen to notice that people who get hit first and don't hit somebody after they are on the ground tend to fare better in court. So there's that. You know who won't try to mask his crass capitalistic impulses after a story like that? All right. Yeah, we'll be right back back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show.

Your support of our sponsors keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Or ask the AI chatbot on the website for any promo code anywhere on the show. the show. Please consider supporting those who support us. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, a while back I started dating somebody who wanted a kid. I don't want kids, so we were just enjoying each other's company. She planned to pay for a sperm donor in the near future, at which point our relationship would end, and we would move forward as friends. She also told me that if she ever got pregnant, she would keep the child, but wouldn't require anything

from me. Because of the bad relationships she had with her father, she believes that if a woman can have an abortion, a man should be able to opt out and not be forced to be a father. Still, I was excited to play an uncle role to her child someday. Unfortunately, birth control failed, and now she's pregnant. I'm positive that it wasn't intentional. She maintains the opinion that I have a choice about being involved. She wants me to be there and figure it out later, but I can't shake the feeling that it'll ruin the someday. But then my heart breaks when I think about not seeing her anymore. My girlfriend proposed one other arrangement, which is, if my parents respected our decision, they could have a relationship with the child. But then I worry that the child will wonder where the father is. My mom is not happy with the decision

and says I need to be there to take responsibility for the child despite my girlfriend's wishes. Do I maintain an uncle relationship with this kid knowing the child will inevitably realize who I am, and potentially feel abandoned and wonder why we never told them? Or do I cut ties when the child is born and let my girlfriend tell the story that she used a sperm donor? And is it possible to have legal documents created that would allow us to treat this as a sperm donation? Signed, looking for an exception after this ill-fated conception. Oh boy, yeah, this is messy. I don't know if there's an easy answer to this question, frankly.

This is one of those situations that are just kind of inherently problematic. and there's no way around it. I mean, either you stick around and remain a father to a child that you don't, or I should say didn't want, or you abandon a child that you helped create, or you play uncle to this kid and create a huge secret, which is I'm stressed out just even thinking about that. You're going to pay a price in any of these scenarios.

And the question is, which things are you willing to give up? In what ways are you willing to pay the price? the reality is the best answer here for everyone except you is to come around to the idea of being a father. And I'm putting a little asterisk next to that because I got something to say about that later. But I know this is not what you wanted. I respect that.

Here's where the asterisk comes in. I'm going to take my one shot and say that becoming a father is the absolute best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life, bar none. When I think about how much I love my kids, my heart opens up and melts. I'm a totally different person in all ways that I think are good, although the vulnerability is a little scary.

I'll give you that. So while you seem to have made your decision, I implore you to just think about it some more. Don't convince yourself if you don't want to, right? But if you can stand the thought, just maybe see if you would reconsider. I'm going to get off my soapbox and straight onto another soapbox. Gabe, I got to say, I am very frustrated with her

for saying she would keep a check. if she ever got pregnant with him, which is exactly what happened, knowing that he didn't want children. I know he says it's unintentional, but I'm also like, you know, hand-on-chin emoji over here with that one. Well, especially because she had a bad relationship

with her father, right? I mean, she's taking this stance that she believes is kind of evolved, which is, well, if a woman can terminate a pregnancy, a man should be able to leave. Fair is fair. But then it's like, isn't having a child with a guy

who explicitly said he doesn't want children also setting up that kid? to have a complicated relationship with their father. So she's helping create a situation that is, I don't know, similarly, if not equally problematic, just because she really wanted to have a baby. Yeah, you're right. Or because she doesn't believe in abortion,

which, you know, totally her choice. Well, her and his choice theoretically, or at least mostly her choice, whatever. I don't want to go down that road. But I'm a little worked up, mostly on the baby's behalf. Right. Because the baby has zero say in any of this.

Yes. And now that kid's going to have to inherit a conflicted father, well, maybe, and a potentially kind of weird story. So I think you need to decide one way or the other if you're going to be involved in this child's life. And I'm not sure that pretending you're an uncle is the way to go. Either you guys need to separate and you need to not be involved at all and make a clean break, keep things neat.

Let your girlfriend pretend it was a sperm donor, which of course would deprive your child of a father and probably eat away at you for the rest of the rest of. of your life, and I'm not trying to guilt-trip you into doing what I suggested. I'm just saying what I think might happen. Or you need to stay involved in your child's life, and maybe you're not married or parenting full-time, you're co-parenting in some way, but you're around. The child knows who their father is, and yes, it's unconventional, but you're present. The kid doesn't feel unwanted. Man, I just think that's the correct thing to do. And it sucks because it's like not what you wanted, but we got to think about the kid here and not like the fact that Jordan would

love to go to Spain because I'm with you, man. Like, I trust me, I'm ashamed to admit this, but I shouldn't be. There's not a week that goes by where I'm not like, oh, man, if I hadn't had kids, I'd be able to do this other thing. But then I love my kids and I don't regret it. So it's just a really tough choice. I wonder how old this guy is Gabriel. Because if you're in your 20s or early 30s, man, you just saw all your fun travel plans

and living abroad kind of go down the drain. Not necessarily. It can be done. But this is a torpedo in the hall. of all your life plans at any age. The uncle option seems very risky as well. We talked about this on the show a few months back. These secrets, they got a way of coming to light eventually.

First of all, DNA testing aside, who knows everyone might do at some point, kids often sense that the guy who always hangs around and looks a lot like them is maybe their dad. My friend's going through this right now. He looks exactly like his uncle who happened to live with them while he was born and before that.

Wow. he's asked his parents and they never go, what are you talking about? That's ridiculous. They just explode in rage and refuse to talk about the situation. So he's like, yeah, my uncle's my dad. And also he's got a cousin

who really looks a hell of a lot like somebody who would be a sister. I mean, it's basically a female version of him. Wow. Now, granted, if it's his cousin, that's totally possible. But it's also very possible that she's his sister. Yeah, it's been a whole messy thing. And now he doesn't talk to his parents

and it's like just one of many things that went wrong. So this gets messy and it gets messy in a whole other way that is avoidable. Yeah, then you're stacking lies on lies at that point. And you're creating confusing relationships. I think that's going to take a toll on you and the child. You're looking at this kid that you can't acknowledge for years. And then what if you change your mind as you get older than like, hey, we should tell Timmy that I'm his dad. And she's like, no, he's going to hate me.

And it's like, well, okay, great, how do we undo that not? Right. It's going to take a toll on the kid, feeling close to this uncle, not knowing that the dad they probably wish for every night before they go to sleep and cry about is living right there yeah and is already in your life you just can't acknowledge it i mean that's so screwed up somehow and then when it all does come out eventually which it probably will then it's like well why did you lie why did you hide this from me do you really love me i mean it's so much more painful it is and i just don't see that going well at all as for whether it's possible to have legal documents created that would make this a sperm donation and by the way

that's how the secret's going to come out, right? Because those are going to end up somewhere while they're cleaning the basement. We're not experts in this field by any means, but we did some homework. It turns out that these sperm donor contracts, they're very important. And they're also surprisingly complex. California makes it a little easier. I don't know where this guy is because we have so many same-sex couples that it's often like, okay, this is my brother's baby with the sperm, but, you know, it's our kid because we're two

lesbians or whatever. It's way easier here. But other states, not so much. Basically, if you guys drew up paperwork that classifies you as a sperm donor, you'd also be establishing other crucial things, clarifying legal rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved, creating a basis for legal parentage, providing evidence of the party's intent in the event of a legal dispute, stuff like that. These agreements they define child support, visitation rights, how future contact between you and the child will be handled, all of which can and probably will get very

see down the line if you and or your girlfriend ever change your minds about what you want this relationship or arrangement to look like. Like if she ever wants to move to another state or she changes her mind and she's like, actually, I could use some child support. Or you're like, actually, I kind of like, you know, this is great. Maybe I should spend more time with this child even if I'm lying about being an uncle or you know what, let's do the dad thing. And she's like, great, I want 20 years of back child support now.

And you're like, well, oh crap, I can't do that. Cool, I'm going to hold this against you. you don't know how things are going to change and progress in the next decade or two. And that's dangerous, in my opinion. Now, what we couldn't figure out from our research is whether you can draw up one of these contracts after conception. At that point, this might just be an unplanned pregnancy, which makes you a parent, not a sperm donor, but we can't be sure.

If any lawyers listening right now know the answer to that, it's very specific and maybe easier than we thought, please write us. we can pass that information along to our friend here. I'm going to go out in a limb and say it's state dependent, like literally everything that has to do with stuff like this. So your best bet is to contact an attorney in your state, a family lawyer, or somebody who specializes in assisted reproduction law.

And do that yesterday. Because I don't know how far along your girlfriend is, but things might change dramatically after the actual birth of the child, especially because these laws, they always change state to state, we're going to link to a few good websites we found in the show notes. Those might help. But again, if you find a way to be classified as a donor, be aware that you are probably also narrowly defining

your rights, which might suit you just fine for now, but be prepared for that. This is incredibly tricky stuff. I'm actually sorry this happened. I'm not going to lie, I'm a little frustrated. I find this whole situation very avoidable and sad. But here we are. Time to adapt, man. Big boy pants, big everybody pants. And look, maybe you'll learn to be a great dad and you'll have a blast being in the kid's life. I personally, sincerely hope that's the case because that's the best outcome for everybody is if you enjoy it and the kid loves having you as his dad and there's not all this drama after he's born and who knows, maybe you even get married to this woman and it's a happily ever after situation. But regardless of how you feel, I'm afraid you really do owe it to

the child to be as present and frankly as honest as you possibly can. So good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier if you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox. Your stepdad's got your nude photos. Your neighbors are eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall.

Or you're trying to decide whether to flee your partner's homeland in the event that a war breaks out. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And, by the way, we've relaunched the newsletter for the show. it's called Webit Wiser, bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week. All the great takeaways, re-analysis of episodes that you may have missed or haven't heard for a long, long time.

And if you want to stay connected to our library of past guests and ideas, come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next step. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife takes a prescription sleep medication. When it starts to take effect, there are about 10 minutes before she falls asleep, where she gets really talkative and has no filter. She has zero memory of what she says,

but we'll agree that it's true if asked about it later. Good news is, she's apparently still in love with me after 25 years and has never said anything hurtful. Frequently, though, she'll talk about sex. Let's just say, kind and gentle isn't how she wants me to act. These requests are not completely out of character for her, but dialed up to 10. If I try to talk to her about it,

I can tell she's initially eager, but then she gets nervous to the point where it affects her mood before anything can happen. I'm usually the one less comfortable talking about sex, so this is not what I'm used to. How can I discuss what I should or shouldn't do while making her feel more at ease talking about it? Signed, getting blocked when my wife balks at this edgy pillow talk. Dave, this reminds me of that song from the 80s by the romantics. You know, I hear the secrets that you keep. I don't know the song. you're talking in, in your sleep. It's a very, very 80s track, 1983, man.

The album is called In Heat. So gross. By the romantics. But yeah, man, wow, interesting. So when your wife is disinhibited by the medication when she's all drugged up, she's honest about what she wants in bed. But when you talk to her when she's not impaired, she gets embarrassed, she shuts down, which, I mean, look, this totally makes sense.

In a way, it's very sweet. She's still in love with you after 25 years. she still wants you, that's awesome. But I can see how this puts you in a tough spot, right? I mean, she probably grew up not raised to talk about this kind of stuff at all or even think about it. And also, kudos to you for finding a freak in the sheets. I mean, that sounds fun or potentially fun.

So this, again, is interesting. My impulse is to say, you guys need to talk openly about this, work through her conflict around the type of sex she wants to have and just go for it, start exploring. But talking openly about what your wife wants in bed, That's what triggers her nerves and tanks her mood, and that's the obstacle. So I think you have two angles here. Both are compatible. Option one, a shitload of booze.

No, I'm kidding. The real option one is you take charge a little more. You don't talk as directly about these fantasies. You just start experimenting. Try out some of the things she wants. See how she responds. Be respectful. Move slowly.

But take a chance. You guys have been married for two and a half decades. there's a lot of love and trust here. So I think you have a strong foundation to work with. I think there's a good chance your wife doesn't actually want to talk about this. She just wants to do it. And I understand that. And part of the fantasy might be you doing it without freaking turning it into a clinical case study

in the psychodynamics of BDSM or whatever. This is not a discussion session led by a TA in a medical school. To be clear, I'm not saying do anything without her consent. Even if that is part of the fantasy, I know that stuff gets complicated. You can check in with her a bunch to make sure it's all welcome. I just mean maybe the better approach isn't to intellectualize this, but explore it in action. Maybe just experiencing it will be the thing that removes the self-consciousness,

not the over-planning. And then you ease into this more and more and more and probably have a lot of fun. Like, I don't think you need to be like, what kind of plastic sheeting do we need to lay down on the floor before? And that's not, you know, that's not romantic. option two, your wife does some work on her own to work through what sounds like shame attached to some of this. If she has her own conflicts around what she likes, which is very common, she might have to

resolve that first. I assume you can do that on a Zoom session with a therapist who probably does this stuff specifically. My hope is that she can learn to resolve that with you either in the talking or in the doing, but you might have to be patient while she comes to terms with some stuff on her own. I would also keep inviting her to explore this when she wants to and to make it as safe as possible for her to open up about. Because I could imagine a situation where, you know, Jordan, I'm just picturing like, she says this thing, he gets intrigued. She gets kind of excited when they talk about it the next day.

But then she hits this wall and she shuts down and then maybe he retreats and doesn't want to go near any of that because it seems kind of overwhelming or off-putting or just like confusing. And then they don't talk about it anymore until the next time she pops a Lunesta. or whatever. And then that might be reinforcing the cycle of, I want to talk about it, I can't talk about it. Where are we? Yeah, Lunesta. I may need some of those myself.

Jen has a lot of trouble sleeping these days. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, if you guys can stay connected even when she has this response, that might be the bridge that gets you across the gap. And I think the gap widens every time you try and fail and then you each retreat. Does that make sense, Gabe?

That's exactly what I meant, yes. And then all that said, I would also listen to any potential signals that your wife doesn't actually want this. Who knows? Maybe she's got Lunesta brain. Maybe she's saying stuff she maybe kind of wants. But when it comes down to it, it's just like it's a little bit turnoffy. It only exists in her mind.

She doesn't really want it. Again, stuff can get complicated. Didn't Roseanne Barr pop an Ambien and then just go full KKK on Twitter? It's hard to know when the sleep medication brings out a false you and when it brings out the true you. But I think she also did something else that was super racist recently. bit dicey with Roseanne Barr as in the case study, but I take your point. Yeah, she might be a bad case study. She might just be somebody who is actually racist and doesn't need the medication,

just uses it as an excuse. So I know I'm contradicting myself a little bit here, but talking is still important just to check in and help your wife get clear on whether she does or does not want this type of intimacy. But again, you guys won't really know until you try it. And look, this isn't like some random girl you're going on five dates with. It's your wife of 25 years. So I feel like you can roll the dice.

little bit and she's not going to be like, I feel violated because of you and I didn't, I'm not comfortable saying anything. I mean, it's your wife of decades. So give it a shot. As long as everybody's sort of kosher with it, I have a feeling it's going to go well and good luck. And, you know, keep a tube of icy hot by the bedside. Make sure to stretch and warm up, man. You don't want to pull a hammie while you're getting your Discovery Channel going. You know what you won't need highly potent prescription drugs to confess your desire for? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found the advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a

moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. They're also in the show notes or ask the AI chatbot on the website as well. You can even email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. If you're too lazy, I'll dig up the code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. It keeps us going. It makes it possible for us to keep creating these every week. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 37 years old. I live in Central Mexico, and I work for a Japanese supplier in the automotive industry. I'm a salesman, a customer service person, and a project developer.

My work is to get new business, make things happen, and get yelled out when everything goes wrong. I always go the extra mile. I'm the kind of guy who stays. one or two hours extra in the office, comes in on weekends, solves all kinds of problems, and worries way too much about things that are not my job. I get lemons and make lemonade. In the past, this has awarded me promotions and the respect of my peers, but lately I've realized that this model doesn't work anymore. I've been promised a promotion for three years by two different bosses. The last one, before returning to Japan, told me he was going to promote me to sub-manager, but it never happened. He went back to Japan months ago and left me with a ton of work undone.

Now I have the work of an acting manager without any of the compensation. I know I'm not getting the promotion. I already asked and I just got silence. So I'm rejecting all the new work and setting boundaries with my bosses. If I'm not a manager, I shouldn't do managers work. But that's not a solution. I know my time here is over and it's time for a new job. I just want to learn something from this experience. How do you balance going the extra mile with protecting and valuing your time? How much is too much? Signed, Elkeza al-Alquila in La Macilla. Oh, snap. So we're doing sign-offs in different languages now? That was actually from the guy who wrote it. And kudos to you for that one, Hermano. I like that one. That reminds me of arrested development. Hermano. Hermano. Yeah.

So I think that means the guy who rents himself out in a foreign-owned factory in Mexico. It's nice. I mean, that is a good one. That is a great one. Very good, well done in Spanish as well. Although, is it easier to rhyme in Spanish? It seems like it might be. I actually think it is a little bit sometimes. Maybe we should outsource the sign-offs to this guy.

There you go. Kind of like how this Japanese company is outsourcing automotive parts to his factory. He clearly does not have enough work to do. Right. You're only doing one or two unpaid jobs. Let's give him another one. He needs more lemons to make uncompensated lemonade out of. Exactly.

Let's dive into this because he's actually asking a really good question. So if you listen to the show regularly, you know Gabe and I are big fans of going the extra mile. Whenever people write to us saying like, hey, I want to get promoted, I want a better title, I want more responsibility. Our response is always great. Stop waiting for permission. Show your bosses what you can do just by doing it and act as if you already have that promotion. and not doing other people's work, but going the extra mile. Do that for three, four, six months, however long it takes to generate real results

that you can then go to your company and say, hey, look, this is what I've accomplished, this is how much I care, I'd love to be compensated for this value that I'm creating for you. And that conversation usually goes very differently from the typical, you know, hey, I want to rise up. Please give me a chance. It's a totally different paradigm for rising up. I remember a long time ago, I hired a guy. He wasn't really performing well.

And he said something like, well, if you guys make me a partner, an equity partner in the business, I'll do more work. And we were like, when can we fire this kid? Because he does not get it. Now, I've seen firsthand how this works, but it doesn't always work because sometimes a company just can't or will not reward you. And that sucks, obviously. So that's where you need to make a call about the limit in terms of going above and beyond.

Every company's different. Sometimes it takes a few months to know whether you're going to get what you want. Sometimes it takes a year or more. But he said it's been three years of this now. That is more than enough time to know that these people are not valuing you correctly. And maybe I'm talking out of school here, but I feel like I've heard this about Japanese companies before. It's like, oh, you're not Japanese. You are not going to ever get into a leadership role because that's not how we roll, period.

Interesting. I don't know if that's the case here. I mean, they are in Mexico. Maybe there's other Mexican managers at the level he wants to get to, but, I mean, how much of a beating do you need to take? At this point, since you know this promotion ain't coming, my advice is you start looking for another job and you use this awesome experience you've carved out for yourself

to tell a great story. And by the way, this is why you can't lose by going the extra mile before you get promoted. People ask us that a lot, too. So I'm just supposed to do more work for the same pay? when I be undervaluing myself, when I be taken advantage of? And the answer is, yeah, at a certain point, maybe. But it's never a total loss because if your company refuses to reward your hard work,

you now have a ton of experience to speak to in interviews. And that is an amazing pitch to a prospective hiring manager. Yeah, I was a salesman and project developer. My job was to drum up new business, but I actually did the work of a sub-manager without anyone asking me. I handled this and this and that, and I managed a team of N people. I constantly look for problems to solve. That's the experience that I want to bring to your company.

Now, your boss might not have formalized the promotion and the pay, but it doesn't matter because you gave that promotion to yourself. And now you're taking all of those accomplishments into your interviews for the next position. Could not agree more. And that's what you're learning from this experience, that you did so much right, you just probably did it for longer than you should have, which is totally fine and honestly speaks to your great character. So next time this happens, if it happens, I hope it doesn't,

but if it does, you'll know sooner whether a company is willing to reward you and you'll make a move a lot sooner if you have to. The way to balance going the extra mile with still valuing your effort is, I think, to do great work while also paying attention to the signals that you're receiving, you know, the way your colleagues treat you, the feedback you get, the degree of responsibility you have, of the influence you have. Yes, of course, the money you make, the title, the quality of your relationships with everybody else in the office, that'll tell you what you need to know. We can't sit here and tell you something like, you know, only work hard

for five and a half months and not a day longer or whatever, or, you know, just stay until 645. After that, you're a sucker. It doesn't really work like that. Every situation is different. But you know in your bones when people take you seriously and when they value you. And after a while, you kind of know when they're going to reward you with the external stuff. So generally speaking, I would say, what, Jordan, after nine months, maybe a year of chasing a promotion, if you're not getting any closer to what you want, then it's probably time to reevaluate. But I wouldn't let this negative experience here with this promotion kill this incredible mindset of yours because you have so much to offer, dude, and you're a real leader. And employees like that are a gift. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

I would say one caveat is if your bosses are telling you you're biting off more than you can chew and you should focus on your own job, then it's a problem because what they're saying is you're not getting your own job done, stop trying to do other people's jobs. But if that's not happening and they're like, yeah, you're doing a great job. We love all the extra work you're doing. Can I have a promotion? Well, I don't know. Then they're taking advantage of you.

So don't give up on being generous. Don't stop looking for ways to be useful. Just be a little savier and more responsive to these signals. now that you're here, go find a company that values you. When you find it, this whole chapter is going to make a lot more sense, and you're going to feel so much better about your killer work. And good luck, man. Gabe, what's interesting is now he has three years of experience,

but he's going to go into this position new, and they're going to be like, man, this guy is really cut out for management. Look at him. He's just sailing because you've already done the work, that job for three years, which is long, you probably should already be promoted to the next level already. Plus, this guy really knows how to rhyme. So we need to get them all over the office puns. That's true.

That's true. Now, whether the Japanese people will appreciate his Spanish pun game is up in the air also. Before we wrap up here, we got a really fascinating letter from a listener who managed to escape. Not one, but two multi-level marketing organizations after going through some pretty wild experiences. Gabe, you want to read that for us? Sure thing. So the letter goes. Hi, guys.

For many years, I was involved in a multi-level marketing company called Monate. and was also part of an MLM coaching group called Rankmakers. Long story short, I was caught up in this for five years. Through the coaching group, I kept purchasing additional coaching and eventually purchased the 100K Inner Circle coaching, which involved being part of yet another Facebook group watching more videos with the promise that I would achieve the holy grail of the six-figure income through my quote-unquote network marketing business.

Many of us involved in MLMs get sucked into purchasing additional coaching because our quote-unquote businesses don't grow. We believe there's something wrong with our mindset, that we have limiting beliefs that we're sabotaging ourselves. I was a very good cult member and did at least one Facebook live every single day for three and a half years. I would do these videos on all kinds of content that often had nothing to do with Monait and use them as a lure for people to comment on.

I would then send them a DM and strike up a conversation to see if they'd be open to taking a look at a video for making passive income. Then one day, I was out hiking, and this guy partway up the trail flashed me. Dude was full on buck naked. Sorry. My instincts to run kicked in, but simultaneously I was scolding myself. Don't be rude. Don't make him feel bad by taking off. I had two voices raging inside of me, and as I took off running, I became angrier and angrier at myself that I fought against my instincts in this disturbing,

toxic positivity kind of way. But still, like a good cult member, I made a Facebook Live at the top of the mountain about this douchebag guy. Because of that video, one of my non-MLM friends sent me a link to your Gavin DeBecker interview on the gift of fear. I felt so validated listening to that conversation. I don't know how much you know about being in an MLM, but for me, my brain could not process anything that was against the MLM.

It was like a brick wall would come down and all I could perceive was hate. In these groups I was a part of, fear was always described as false evidence appearing real. Listening to the interview, I was like, no, fear can also be our instinct. Nothing false about that dick on the trail. Exactly. Can't argue with that.

Slowly, I began waking up more and more. When I watched Lula Rich, the documentary about the famous MLM, I remember not being able to hear Robert Fitzpatrick, the guy who wrote Ponzinomics, talk about how pyramid schemes work. It scared me. But I wanted to hear, and that brick wall in my brain just came down. Finally, a year and a half ago, I left the MLM and the group and began speaking out against them on social media. I got into therapy with a psychologist who had experience working with people involved in cults and was also against multi-level marketing.

I had one goal to see my MLM coach get out, and she did. She's joined me in whistleblowing against the coaching group. I continue to speak out and have helped others exit their MLMs and rank makers too. A number of things stand out to me as I heal and move on from the shit show I was a part of. Your interview with Gavin DeBecker and that Facebook post you wrote about MLMs both encouraged me to begin thinking critically when people within the MLM told me to avoid people like you. I eventually sent you a message thanking you and you were kind to me, even though I knew you were against multi-level marketing. Thanks again for the content you create and the people you're helping by created. This time, the thanks is coming from me being free, signed Julie.

So, of course, I loved this email. It's one of the more fascinating ones we've gotten from folks in the MLM world or who get out of the MLM world. We get a decent amount. As you guys know, I am kind of on a mission to expose multi-level marketing scams wherever I can. I just find them to be one of the most absurd, destructive models out there. But it's really what they do to people's lives, their worldviews, their relationships, their sense of self that gets me fired up. The way they operate like cults in a lot of ways, how they make it very difficult, if not impossible to see outside of the oppressive bubble that they create. So what moved me about this letter, well, so many things, right?

But what really stands out to me is the courage it must have taken our friend here to step outside of this programming and start questioning what she was being sold. Totally. This is one of the hardest things to do in life, this very basic form of independent critical thinking because it means having to potentially give up many sources of support, right? The prosperity, connections, safety, financial, as well as emotional and intellectual support.

I'm not just talking about Facebook groups, but a lot of times your only friends are people from these MLMs they'll cut you off. It's like being a real cult, really. It's like being a culty church where you get excommunicated, Right, you're a hater now. And a person who can do what Julie just did and listen, not even agree with everything she hears,

but just listen, that is brilliant. But to me, this is about being willing to be in contact with reality, to reassert your own needs over the control of organizations that only want to profit from their members' extreme vulnerability. That's all this is. One of the themes we hear again and again on this show is the mental prisons that people construct around themselves. And we all do this to some degree, whether it's with our beliefs or our conditioning or our stories,

it could be political, could not be. I know how hard it is to walk out of those prisons, especially after years of being inside. So when Julie talked about being scared during Lula Rich, but still wanting to hear some difficult truths, and also being ready to hear them, I mean, that's an important factor too. And that brick wall in her brain came down, I mean, standing ovation. because that willingness to tolerate the discomfort, that healthy tension of being confused and uncertain, which the human brain hates, by the way,

that is so important. It's table stakes for finding the people and ideas you need to help you, enrich you, make you better. But again, it takes genuine courage and humility, and for some people, including a lot of people caught up in predatory organizations, it's just too threatening. But you did that, and look where it got you. I'm insanely proud of you, really. I am, and I'm very happy that you got out.

Man, I am too. It's an extraordinary story. I'm also fascinated by that story about the hike. I mean, this guy who flashed her and inadvertently led her out of an MLM. She was questioning her reaction to him. It's interesting that it took something so bizarre and, I don't know, like dangerous and primal, I guess, is the word that I'm looking for, to shock her back into her natural instinct. Yeah, I mean, the whole false evidence appearing real, it's like, well, okay, how do I square this? That's pretty real. Yeah, it was real AF.

And it actually makes sense, right? A lot of times people caught up in coercive organizations or dangerous relationships. They need an experience like that to come back to themselves. Because when you're threatened in a more primal way, it kind of cuts through the BS and right to the core of who you are. You know, you're back in touch with your organic responses, your healthy fear, your protective anger, whatever it is. And then when you're like, so-and-so guru would say, this is false. evidence appearing real. Your amygdala is like, I don't care what Karen said at the last circle up meeting on Facebook, whatever. There's a weener in your face, man. You know, you're hiking

for God's sake. So you're like, okay, a creep friggin' flash me in public and I'm here worried about his feelings? What the hell is wrong with me? It really just, it brings the programming into stark relief. Yeah, good term. So you see how this conditioning and propaganda in her case, it's this toxic positivity, how that stuff sits on top of your very, very, very, very. intelligent, in-dwelling instincts. And that's a moment where you go, okay, crap, I can't even trust my legitimate need to be physically safe.

Where did that message come from? This also reminds me of our episode with Sarah Nippy about nexium. You know, there were a few of those, oh, shit moments, like the brick wall is slowly coming down moments, and they had to stack up before they finally decided to leave

and blow the whistle, because the branding they did in that cult, I mean, much more dramatic and very weird, but it's kind of a similar thing, right? It's like, wait, I'm letting them physically hurt me now. Like, I'm letting people friggin mark me. Something isn't right. Yeah, she got branded on her Vajajah,

if you haven't heard that episode yet. That was a wake-up call. And also very primal, right? The pain involved with that. That's another primal experience that can shock you into taking a huge step back and questioning what you are a part of. And it's crazy that it takes something that enormous to do it,

but that just speaks to how powerful these structures in your mind can be. That was episode 770 and 771. By the way, if you want to hear what it's like to be inside a sex cult, one of many sex cult episodes we've done, I guess. It's funny. This also reminds me, I mean, it's not funny at all, but it's interesting. This also reminds me of the letter we took a couple months back

from the woman who, do you remember the woman who grew up in that religious cult, and then she got a traumatic brain injury in a car accident? Yeah, Amanda Katarzi. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Amanda, but I was actually talking about the woman who wrote into Feedback Friday. Oh, oh, oh, oh. It was like similar to Amanda. Yes, good point.

This was like six weeks ago or two months ago, and suddenly, her brain was different, her personality was different, her needs were different, and suddenly she saw how toxic the community she grew up in was because nobody took her seriously and nobody really wanted to help her after she had helped them for decades. Right. In a very different way, she also had to come back to her basic needs, too, through this serious accident, which ultimately led her to wake up.

And that was fascinating. That was episode 842, by the way. Right. Also, and Amanda Katarzi also grew up in a cult, and was being trafficked, and she got in an accident. That was her wake-up call. There's really a theme going here. here. Yeah. So there it is again, man, this is so fascinating. All these stories have this element of physical danger or physical vulnerability. It's just, that's not a coincidence, I think. But here's

the good news. We don't need to get branded or flashed on a hike or hit by a car before we can start thinking critically. We can start now by keeping an eye on our biases, staying connected to our healthy skepticism, choosing to remain open to the facts. But it's good to know that life has a weird way serving up the experiences we need to wake up sometimes anyway. So Julie, it's hard to express how much this email means to us. We're thrilled our show could play even a small role in you waking up, so to speak. I thank you for sharing your story with us and using your real name, which you actually encouraged us to do, because you said the best way to deal with the shame that these groups

created is to own your story, and I really admire that. You're an amazing model for tons of people caught up in questionable groups. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're a friggin' champ and a hero, and I wish only good things for you from here on out. And deviant free hikes, too, because you deserve at least that. Imagine, Gabe, all it took was one hairy, swinging schlong to break the paradigm and turn things around. And Julie, that man on your path, that was me.

You're welcome. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out the episodes with Rory Stewart, including our fundraiser with GiveDirectly to help lift a village in Kenya out of poverty. GiveDirectly.com slash Jordan is where you can find it.

Remy Adelaike and our Skeptical Sunday on astrology. Make sure to check out those episodes if you haven't done so yet. And once again, the fundraiser is givedirectly.com slash Jordan. Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023. So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, podcast addict is a good one, cast box. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts.

The Stitcher app is going away, folks. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not culty.

And it's totally schlong-free. And you can find it on the thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. dig that well before you thirsty, build relationships before you need them. Again, at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Show notes and transcripts at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals,

or ask our AI chatbot right there on the website. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Now, I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before we get into that, here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger show. If you're not honest with yourself, then how do you ever move your life in a positive direction? Because you're starting from a point to fantasy. Nobody can succeed if you're not honest with themselves. Revenue sure is all. You know, when I talk to people in business seminars and they say, you know, John, my labor cost is high, my marketing costs is high, my promotion costs is high, my tech cost is high.

But if I could raise your revenue by 30 percent, You wouldn't have pet cost problems anymore. You wouldn't have labor cost problems. So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives. If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in a morning and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now? How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then I can deal with all of the other things that I have to.

But there's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. And if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first, stay. Probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur. And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender, people say he's been a bartender for 10 years, he should be the manager. No, if he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be the manager. Some people are comfortable where they are and you promote him right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave him alone. The person who's not comfortable who's bubbling up,

on their own, that's the one who should be promoted, even if they've only been leaving for a couple months. I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader. I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed them off a cliff. Leadership is boring. It's not given.

For more no-nonsense business advice with Bar Rescue star John Taffer, check out episode 142 of the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way.

Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's

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