The Jordan Harbinger Show - 88: Charles Ryu | Confessions of a North Korean Escape Artist Part Two

Episode Date: August 30, 2018

Charles Ryu (@freshprinceofpyongyang) escaped from North Korea -- twice -- and now works with Liberty in North Korea to fight for the rights and freedom of those who have been left behind. This is part two of a two-part episode. Check out part one here! What We Discuss with Charles Ryu: The risky train ride that began Charles' escape to freedom. How the swift current of a freezing river likely saved Charles' life. What Charles did once he got to China with no money, food, or water. The chance encounter with a good samaritan and the circuitous path that led to the United States. Why winding up in a Thai prison was the best day of Charles' life up to that point. And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DeFilippo. This discussion also includes my friend Gabriel Mizrahi, and we're talking with my friend Charles, who actually escaped by himself from North Korea twice. This is really an incredible show. If you haven't heard part one, go back and listen to part one that we released last week. It is an incredible, and it's a long story, but it is just absolutely fascinating and incredible. And those of you who don't know much about North Korea, again, you know, as I mentioned before, you go to prison for folding a newspaper the wrong way. There are people who are in labor camps who die there because they couldn't see very well because they were malnourished and they sat on a magazine or newspaper with the leader's face on it. I mean, it's that kind of repressive society. And Charles is a really good storyteller. He's stayed strong throughout his whole ordeal. He's got all these crazy experiences, both inside of and during his escape from North Korea.

and we go into great detail here on these two episodes with Charles. So I hope you enjoy this one as much as I enjoyed recording it. Absolutely fascinating. And if you want to learn how I manage to book all these great people and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, check out our Level One course, which is free. That's over at Advanced Human Dynamics.com slash Level One. And don't forget, we've always got worksheets for the show

so you can make sure you get all the takeaways from the guest, all the practicals and everything else. That link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. So now for the thrilling conclusion here with Charles Rue. I worked in the mind about a year and I realized, you know, that it was my time to escape North Korea again. And, you know, I know how hard it is, you know, escaping North Korea would be without any money or, like, food, you know. Because, like, I wasn't really good at saving money, even though I was planning on saving some money. You didn't save a lot you spent on.

I was spending on, like, you know, like, partying. Will Smith DVDs. Yeah, right? I was a big fan of Will Smith. So he's a big, like, he's really inspirational to North Koreans. Will Smith is inspirational to North Koreans? Yeah, yeah. Like, at least, like, for me, you know, for me and my friends.

I want to be at Will Smith, you know. But, yeah, James Bond, you know. Sure. You know, I knew how hard he's skipping North Korea would be without any money or food. And I knew that if I was caught, you know, I could be killed. But those risks were waited working in the dark coal mine every day until it was my turn to the Lemberdie. So one morning, instead of entering the mine, I walked up the path and began running. You know, I ran, ran off from the coal mine, and I was living on the street for three months.

So I escaped coal mine in 2011, May of 2011. And then on a humid day in August, I was lying down on a hillside. I have no plans whatsoever. I was as homeless because I didn't want it to die in a coal mine. I escaped, but I have no way how I'm going to get to China. But I was lying down on a hillside. And in the distance, I saw a train come to stop. And people were exiting out of the train cars, middle of nowhere.

I'm like, I wonder if I can steal something. And I walked down the path and I looked at the sign. It says, Pyongyang, from Pyongyang to Heisan. Hesan is like the border town, right? I'm like, oh my God, this is my chance. I need to get on that train. So I walked into the crowds, and I tried out like blend in

and I was pretending I was belong there. And then as soon as the power came back or as soon as the train trying to move again, people were trying to get into the train and I joined the line. And the guard stopped me and asked me like, oh, can I see your documents?

can I share birth certificate. I'm like, oh, shoot. And I lied that, oh, my mother had them and that she was already on the train. And he nodded, and I had a straight-for-the-train bathroom to hide. For the next two days, I was hiding on the train.

You know, sometimes I have to climb out of the window, hide on the top of the train, or sometimes I have to come down and sit on the hitch between the two cars to avoid the guards. And if I was caught, But I'll be ended up in a labor camp somewhere, most likely. In the middle of the, I think it was a night, yeah. I was almost the border town when the hand guard grabbed the back of my neck and dragged me to a holding cell on the train.

A guard found you on the train? Yeah, on the train. Because it was like a midnight and I was so cold. And I was like sleeping in the, like a nearby bathroom. And then suddenly like I felt something kicking. my back. And then the guard dragged me to a holding cell on the train. And there are two other boys in the room who have been cut too.

And us, the guard locked the door to the cell. He told us that we'll be handed over to the authorities at the next stop. Is the crime taking the train or trying to escape? They don't know that you're trying to escape yet. They don't know that, yeah. It's just illegal to ride the train. So like, oh, we'll be handed over to the police at the next stop. And then, you know, I thought about like how terrible.

the detention center have been, you know, like long days of manual labor, sleepless night that I've, you know, like, spent remembering the rules and the constant feelings of hunger. I refused to let that happen again. So as the train began to slow down for the next stop, I saw a window was unlocked. So I pushed it open and squeeze out of the small opening, and I jump off the moving train, rolled into a ditch, and began sprinting for some nearby trees. I walked for like hours, illegally catched a second train, and two days later, I finally made it to the border town. You jumped out of the moving train.

No big deal? Yeah, no big deal. Because the train was preparing to stop, so it wasn't that fast. Okay. And then like on the side, it was like a, it's like a grass. And I feel it's a hard rock and I'll probably rock something, but I'm fine, you know. I love how to you this is not that big of a deal, but to us, I can't even imagine. I would not jump out of a moving train. I don't care how slow. You're stuck in a room that a guard has put you in.

I think, I don't know. I think I just trying to understand the psychology of that because I'd be like, no, they put us here. This is where I have to stay here. I'll explain myself when I talk to the police. But at this point, you've been through so much. You're just like, you know what's good. Yeah, I know what to do. You know, because that's like regular day life or not Korean like homes.

You know, because they get caught all the time and they were sent to, like, the orphanage. But a lot of kids escape orphanage because that's, like, worse than living on a street because they don't feed you in orphanage. So a lot of orphanage kids would escape, like, you know, from the orphanage. So you're in the border town now? Yeah, now, finally in the border town, right? And then when I first escaped North Korea in 2008, I met a few friends at the Hizan City, and then I went into his house. right and like 5 a.m. in the morning

and like, hey, you know, like I'm trying to skip again. Will you come with me? Because I needed somebody, you know, because before in 2008, when I escaped, I had somebody in my back watching over me.

But this time, like, I'm completely on my own. I don't know how I'm going to cross. I don't know how I'm going to get around the reber, you know, because there is like rules, you know. 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. You can only allow to go during that time.

Otherwise, if you wonder around the reber, you're going to get shot. Because, like, they think of you as, like, escaping, you know. And you don't have the protection of the broker? I don't have the protection anymore. So I was, like, trying to, like, convince this kid to escape with me, right? And he said, yes. He's an escape with me.

I'm like, oh, my God, thank goodness. Because that kid knew, like, really well around the border. So, yeah, we're planning on escaping the next day and did it at night. but like this kid goes out and comes back and saying like I don't think I can escape with you anymore because I met this chick You know she uh so like in North Korea like it was August right So there is like a chestnut farm in the mountain

Like a like a wild chestnut and then you sell it at the black market And then you go camping there to collect the chestnut But this guy knows one girl who like who he has crush on her right and he finds out that this girl is going to chestnut farm and then she invited him to go with her and he's like dude this is my only chance to get to know her I'm like

what guys will do just to get a good right I'm like now I'm sitting here I'm like I really hope that that girl was worth it should I leave the most oppressive regime on earth yeah but I might get some of this chestnut farm so sorry bro I might get laid in a chestnut farm

skipped escaping for a date. He better have buried that girl. Yeah. I... Do you know? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I have no idea. I have no idea, like, what she have done, but... Did you feel like you had to ask somebody else for help? Because doing it alone is scary and having somebody with you makes it more possible? Or did you just need him to tell you where to go? He would be, like, mental, like, guide, right? I mean, like, having... Mental guide? Yeah. Having somebody next to me.

even though we get caught, you know, we have like better explanation, right? Oh, we're just friends, you know, wandering around. It's just like, oh, like, we just, you know, escaped, you know. And like, no big deal. But like, by myself, like, I have to explain myself, right? So I guess, like, having him next to me, I guess it, like, gave me a lot of, you know, like, motivation, right, to, like, go a little further. But for myself, I didn't know if I could do it, you know, but I'm already determined, you know.

Even though I'm going to die, like, I don't want to die in there. I'm going to die here. So in the afternoon, the next day, right? In the afternoon, I walked into the river that divides North Korea in China, which is Yellow River. And then I hid in the tall grass where, I don't know, until the darkness. And I couldn't really move. I had to just remain like this position, like a shrimp, you know, because it wasn't windy, you know. And the grass was like tall steel.

And if it's, if they see it's moving, because they're a flashlight, you know. If it's this moving, they're going to come down and check, right? So I couldn't move at all. It was finally dark. And I thought it was my time. And then I slowly walked into the water. And then I was like walking, walking. And like my brain is completely blank.

Like I don't think about anything. But just I just feel. the cold water. You know, it's so cold and like, like, my heart is like beating in my throat too. And then halfway into the river, I slipped on a rock and I let out a scream. Oh, man. Because the water would come was so fast. And I couldn't do anything about it, right? And I think it let out a gasp. I wasn't screaming, but I let a gasp. And then immediately a floodlight was on my back. and I heard a soldier screaming at me. Oh, man.

He's like, Yeah, this shti-ya, an dorawa. If you're gonna go. Sondra, he's like, you've bastard come back here. Stop, stop, you know. Or I would shoot.

And like, at that point, I'm like, I'm dead anyway. You know, like, if I stop here, I'm gonna drown. Like, I'll steady away. Either he would shoot me or I would obey and return to the shore

only to be shipped off to, labor camp, right? And I decided not to stop, and I kept waited ahead. And each step took me folded away from North Korea and closer to dream of my freedom,

which is China. But the guard was kept screaming in me, but he never filled the trigger. And then five minutes later, because the thing was like, the river was like this way, right? River Kern was like this way, but the current was so fast.

So if I left it from here, here, I ended up here, right? Down, down the bank. Yeah, down, like, further down. Right? Because, like, he was, like, keep, like, chasing me. And then I arrived at there. And then I went into the cornfield.

Corn, like, there's, like, a big corn farm. You're in China now. I mean, China now. And then, like, I made it. So the current took you faster than he could run. Yeah, he could run. So then you ran into a cornfield. Like, he got lost.

He got lost check of me. Oh, wow. Yeah. I guess the part of the reason that he didn't shoot is that he does, he doesn't know where I am. Yeah. He lost. Yeah, I was going to say, it doesn't sound like compassionate. It sounds like, where the hell this guy got?

Yeah. Where the hell did he go? Now you're in a cornfield and you're running, hiding? You know, I catch my breath and I took my all clothes and I'm running them out. Ring them out. Yeah. Ring them out. And then, like, I'm just like sitting there like stunned, you know, like, oh my God, I just did it.

And they don't chase you into China. No, they can't. Like, it's actually legal to cross the river. Even though bullet, they shoot, right? If the, like, legally on a legal term, if the bullet lands in China, that's a war. Oh, yeah. Oh, so they can't shoot across the river? So they can shoot between in the river because that's not China.

That's not North Korea. So between the river, you're not allowed to shoot. It's a law. But North Korea doesn't care anyway because they shoot anyway. and they kill people anyway. That's what I heard, like, when I was in, like, the refugee camp, because a lot of people, like, that's actually, like, a lot in the law. You know, like, you can't shoot the person in the, between the river,

because that's, like, nobody's land, the river. No man's land, yeah. Yeah, no man's land, because it's in border. I never heard a gunshot, you know, numb, I'm in a cornfield, like, think about where I'm going to go. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Charles Rue. We'll be back right after. Have you ever had a moment where you have a moment where you,

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all the great discounts you just heard, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash advertisers. We also have an Alexa skill so you can get inspirational and educational clips from the show in your daily briefing. Go to Jordan Harbinger.com slash Alexa or search for Jordan Harbinger and the Alexa app. Now back to the show with our guest, Charles Rue. Yeah, what's the plan now? You're just like in a hitchhike. My original plan was just living in China, you know, because I knew that like I couldn't get, I couldn't find my dad because I know that he's far away, you know, but like my only hope, like, at that time was like, okay, I'm going to find some city because I can't stay here because I found a city, but that city was like, like, full of like Chinese police, you know, trying

to catch North Koreans. So I couldn't stay there. So I have to like manage, I have to find a way to get away. So I'm walking. I don't know where I'm going. No money. No money. No food.

Nothing else. only thing that I have is like almost like faded away like shoes you know like almost like I fell apart shoes poor clothes I'm walking and I walked in China for three days I didn't know where I was going

without any water or food I was like really hungry was dehydrated and I was exhausted like really really only hope that kept me going you know was finding a residential

into district, you know, and just finding some water, some bread, you know, and just staying there, pretending I'm a homeless, you know, just begging for food, begging for money. And if I just live like that, I'm still free, you know, because I can do whatever I want. You know, I don't have to

risk my life working in a coal mine, you know, just to get paid 3 kilograms of rice, right? Finally, my feet got blisters and it start bleed. it bled and I can't walk anymore I'm hungry I'm exhausted

and I started regretting like why did I left North Korea if I was in coal mine I was to get fed I was to have place to sleep I was to have some money in my pocket I was to have fun with my friend

and then I really thought about you know like should I go back oh man should I turn back that's how bad it was yeah that's how bad it was should I turn back

like it's like middle of like really in nowhere. It's like nothing else but like forest. So you're in the forest, you're not walking on a road. I'm not walking in a road. I'm like walking in a road. But like there was a side road too, but I'm just following the road in a forest. Off to the side. So that nobody sees me, right? And you don't speak Chinese. I don't speak Chinese. I speak a little bit of Chinese, like broken Chinese.

But this is like scary. Yeah, it's really scary. And then at one point, yeah, so like I don't care anymore. Because I'm almost dying. Like three days, it's been three days without any food. I'm dying anyways. So I just lie down on the road. I'm like, do whatever you want. Do whatever you want.

And then I'm religious. I'm Christian. I knew this was coming. I knew you're going to say that. Sorry, but I was like, this is why he goes to church now. Yeah, I'm religious. And then I pray to God. Because I met a pastor when I was in China for the first time in 2008.

And he came to our house. giving me some Bible and I gave me some money. Cool, Christians keep up money. Yeah, this is awesome. So this was the first time you went to China. Yeah, first time I was China. You were going to church back then? No, I wasn't going to church, but he came to our house and he prayed for me.

And then, like, when I was in the refugee, when I was in the detention center, I prayed a lot too. Like, I wasn't praying, right? I was having that communication. Like, I was, like, talking, like, in my mind, right? Talking to, like, it's God. You know, I keep talking, keep talking. keep talking. And then, yeah, in China, I was so desperate, you know. And then I was shouting. I was literally like crying and shouting like, why? You know, why? And I prayed like,

I didn't want it to die like this, you know. And I cried and cried until I became more dehydrated. I couldn't cry anymore. And then like 20, 10 to 20 minutes later, a Chinese dude riding a model I was like, oh, and then he passed by me, and then he stops, and he turns back, and he tempts me, and he sees me lying down on the ground. I'm like, are you from North Korea? Oh, wow. Like, Nilai, Choshin. Yeah, Choshen, right? I was like, right?

No. Well, Baba is a Chinese. You know, like, I told him, like, my dad is, yeah, Chinese. And, like, he's like, yeah, get on the horse. So we wrote like a couple of hours. I don't know. I think he must be like 12 hours. And then we got to his place. And he gave me medication. He gave me food. He gave me shoes. He gave me clothes. He gave me place to sleep overnight. And then next morning, he connected me to a South Korean missionary. And then he was like, oh, like, I turned out to South Korea. I'm like, I'm trying to find

my father here. Because like at the time, like I wasn't thinking of going to South Korea, right? Sure. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I'm looking for my father here. And it's like, oh, like, if I give you money and if I give you, like, bus ticket, do you know where to go? I was like, yeah, I know where to go. He put me on a bus to my father's place. And I knew because I lived there over nine months.

I know where my father lives. So do you think it's coincidence or it's a miracle? I mean, you certainly got some good fortune having that guy passed by and care enough to stop and help you. Yeah. And then, like, I knock on my father's door. And then he just, like, freaking out. Like, to be honest, like, 16-year-old kid, you know, like, crossing, like, the world, like, heavily fortified and most closed-up country escaping that country by himself. It's, like, impossible.

Sure. You know, like, and then he thought I was a criminal. Like, did you kill someone? Like, are you on the run? You know, that's why did you do you? escape? I'm like, no. Like, I always... This place sucks. Remember, you used to live there?

Just live there, you know? Yeah, and like, because I was working in a coma and I explained in, you know, and like, I was just hungry and I just wanted to live my life in freedom, you know. And then he was like, okay, well, that makes sense. And then I escaped in 2011 August, but 2011 October, Kim Jong-il died. The security has been gone like, triple. Oh, they made the security even tighter. Yeah.

So, like, some, like, North Korean, like, a military came to China to look for North Koreans. To capture them and they were back to North Korea, right? Wow. So I couldn't move. I was always staying at home, you know, I was so scared. And then finally, my dad was like, okay, you know what? If you stay here and if you get caught, you know, you're going to go to labor camp. And this time, you're going to be 18. So no more, you're going to go to four years labor camp. You know, no mercy for you. and then he found a broker that smallest people out of China to South Korea. So I embarked on another long journey to Southeast Asia, and I was on a bus to travel to Southeast Asia, and I know how dangerous that journey is,

because I've seen a lady viting off her vein, killing herself because she got caught nearby Mongolia. And every single time the bus stops, like my heart pounding in my throat, You know, and like my palms are like sweaty. And it's like, it's like full of like sweat, you know, because like if I get caught here, I'm going to die. And like if the bus stops, like every single one, like every single hair on my body is sticking up.

You know, because I'm so scared. But fortunately, I didn't get cut, you know. Oh, man. Are you alone at this point? So I wasn't alone. There was like a couple of the North Koreans who's like, who's, like, who's escaped. with me.

And then we had a broker. He's with you? I don't know who he is. You know who I am, but I don't know who you are. In case we get caught, we don't tell on you. You know, we don't know who. But he's on the bus? He's on the bus, too.

But you have no idea who is. I have no idea who it is. I have no idea who it is. The person who arranged this told you, he's going to be on the bus. Yeah, he's going to be on the bus. I don't know who he is. I don't know who it is. There are two or three of you.

Yeah, yeah, three of us. And then about a week, I finally met. So we are on a bus. We're on a motorcycle. And, you know, and then very escaping through Southeast Asia, you know, and I got to, I got to Sautisatia. I got to Thailand. And then we were on a vote, like a really small vote, like a really narrow. Boat?

A boat, yeah. It's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a big tree, you know, cut it in half. Like you're like a canoe? Canoe. Canoe. Oh, God. Yeah. You had a back there, we had a mortar, right?

And it's a canoe. I know what you're, yeah. Like a little. These little Thai boats that are hollowed out logs. Oh my God, you were in that thing? That's so scary. I know, right? I couldn't move.

And I heard a story about, like, crocodiles in the river, you know? I don't know about that. Macombie River? Oh, maybe. Yeah. I'm surprised you even gave a crap about crocodiles at that point. I mean, I'm like, yeah. And after this river, like, I'm free.

I'm completely free, you know? And, like, I'm holding down on it. And I'm looking at the light towards the, like, Thailand. I'm like, and if I move a little bit, we're going to flip, you know, like, I was like, oh my God, you know. And then we got to Thailand, and then we voluntarily surrendered to Thailand police. So they were like, oh, like, we're going to put you in a prison for 10 days. I'm not going to lie, that was the best day of my life. Going to Thai prison.

Going to Thai prison, right? Wow. waking up in a Thai present camp, I mean, because for me, you know, I have only a certain experience, you know, because it's for me freedom. Like, I can exhale. Right. You know, I'm like, oh, now I'm finally free. Thailand recognizes North Korea refugees, right? As a refugees, yeah. So you're like, you know you're in good hands.

Yeah, I know I'm in good hands, you know, and then they are sending us to Salt Korea, right? So what happened is, like, you enter Thailand without any permission. But Thailand, like, they, like, let you go wherever they want to go because we're refugees, right? They're kicking us out of Thailand to South Korea, right? That's the understanding. Yeah, that's the understanding. So you felt better waking up in the Thai prison than you did waking up in that hotel in China. Well, 100 times better.

And plus, they fed us white rice and chicken soup and egg. Like, wait, what? Like, I ate like 50 pieces of corn every meal in North Korean prison. You know, I'm like, well, like, my food. I'm like, wait, what? This is a big step up, you know? And, like, they just let me sleep. Like, however do I want.

And just wake up anytime there's food, there's water. I don't have to do anything. And then I was trying to apply for South Korea, but they didn't recognize me as refugee because my father is Chinese. No. Oh, wow. Yeah, so they said like, well. You're in Thailand. I'm in Thailand.

You're applying for refugee status to South Korea. They won't give it to you because you're only half. Half Chinese and half Korean. and I'm like Chinese government doesn't recognize me as refugee and they sent me back to North Korea I went to labor

I went to detention center and I've been through crap and I got sent back to North Korea but you guys don't want to help me and they're like Charles like we really want to help you but we cannot change the law we would have to send you back to China

I'm like crap I'm dead you just thought you were I'm out. I'm out. Like, there's like, there is no hope for me. Because, like, resettlement was only hope for me. Right. Because, like, I'm in Thailand. Thailand won't let you stay. Thailand won't let you stay. China will send you back. China will send you back. And now South Korea won't take you. Yeah, they want to. So I'm an international, like, an orphanage. Stateless. Stateless. I really thought of, like, killing myself at there. Did you really? I didn't eat for, like, a week. You know, I became, like, cutting. You know, I just drink water. I just, like, I can't eat.

because I'm so stressed. Because I got moved to another cell from North Korean cell to international cell to move back to China. Oh, they already started the process? Yeah, they already started the process. So you were already like, this is happening. Yeah, this is happening.

I'm going to die. And then, like, every day was a struggle. Every day was like a war for me. You know, because, like, trying to find like South Korean like embassy, like Asian, you know, shouting at them, you know, like, please help me. You know, like, but I met Jesus.

I'm just kidding. You can resist that one. But seriously, though, like one guy who, like, recommended me, like, hey, you should apply for UN. I think they know your situation. Well, I think they might take you. And then I apply for UN. And then most of people, they have to wait a year to get a first interview, right? But for me, I got my interview within a week.

So who is this guy that told you to apply to the UN for international refugees status. Jesus. Fine. Yeah. So, qualify that. So he is another North Korean dude who's going to the United States, and he's waiting to be processed. Where did you meet him? International, the international refugee camp. He's there too. Yeah, he's in a cell as me. Okay. Right. But all the people there are international. They're not just, but there's a

self for only North Koreans, and there is self like international people that they're going to America, you know, they're going to like, like, I know, like, Japan, you know, all of the world, right? And he was like, oh, yeah, you should apply for America. They might be, you know, accepting. They might help you out. So I applied for UN, and then I got my first interview in the first week, second interview in the second week, third week, fourth week.

I went to hospital, I got my body checked out, everything's good, and then you're going to go to America. Wow. How did that happen so quickly? Because I was a minor at the time. How did you fill out the paperwork? I don't even understand. Yeah, I mean, there was a, there was like a Korean, you know, like a translator helped me out.

He worked at the prison? She's working for UN. A UN worker helped you. Yeah, apply for the. What did that feel like? Oh my God. Like, I, the day that I got my plane ticket, I could not sleep. I was so excited

and I'm like all the things that I can do all the things that I'm how I'm going to live like I'm trying to map out you know how I'm going to live you know my rest of my life

you know like I'm going to do this I'm going to do this I'm going to live my life so good and I'm going to really good I'm going to become rich I'm going to help out and I'm going to do like all things

you know I'm going to church like my thoughts are like full of like like plans you know like and at the same time I'm so excited, you know, like, I couldn't sleep for the whole day. Until that point, you didn't plan to go to America. I didn't know, like, I mean, I knew about America, but, like, I didn't even, like, imagine

going there because, you know, it's such a foreign country, it's such a foreign to me. Salt Korea was only, like, my option, you know, but even better, way better. So I didn't know about America. I mean, like, I knew about America, but, like, I didn't think of coming to me. America. You know, it's like, imagine you think you're going to die in a North Korean labor camp and you end up in Los Angeles instead. It's blowing my mind. Yes. So you're, you get on the plane. Did you fly from Thailand? Yeah, from Thailand to South Korea. And I remember looking at- Oh, you went from Thailand, South Korea? South Korea. South Korea. To Los Angeles.

LAX. Did you know anybody here? No. What was your plan? So, uh, IRS, so international refugee, like, international refugee service. So they had our people much friendlier than they were in. I was about to I didn't know the IRS helped refugees get settled. A different international refugee service. Yeah, I think it's IRS. I'm going to look that up, but it's like, what's IRS? It's our internal revenue service. You'll learn all about them now that you're paying taxes.

Oh, IRS. The tax, yeah, tax collectors, right? Yeah, it's just a final tax. Not as helpful as the ones that you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. But there's not under like a service. Is it a nonprofit? It's really big.

it's really big nonprofit it's a non-profit it's a non-profit yeah it's like a like an NGO yeah it's really big they help refugees get settled in different places yeah so they knew about your case yeah they knew about my case how did you do you write them yeah so I told them everything about

like I told them every specific like I told them okay so if you go to China this jail you'll find about my paper you'll find everything about me if you go this North Korean location you'll find everything about me. And then I guess they have connections. Are they part of the process of getting a visa? That was an interview, right? That's all part of it. All part of it. Okay. Right? To like accepting

me as a refugee, right? So they have to make sure that I'm like identified. Yeah, you're not a criminal. Yeah, I'm not a criminal. I'm not a, I'm not a, you're not, you're not part of a group, a terrorist group or or something like, or part of like any like organization, you know. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest. Charles Rue. We'll be back right after this. Thanks for supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors, visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash advertisers. We're rebuilding this show from scratch, so a nice rating and review in iTunes or your podcast player of choice would really help us out. It only takes a minute or two, and if you want some tips on how to do that, head on over to

Jordan Harbinger.com slash subscribe. Now back to the show with our guest, Charles Rue. What was your first plane ride like? I remember looking out the windows. The plane began to land in California. you know, I've never dreamed of being on a plane. Like, I've been coming to America, you know. It's like, I'm just so high up, you know. I was so terrified of, like, turbulence, you know. When's the plane shakes, I'm like, whosh!

You know, I was like, all the plane rights, but, like, I got used to it because I, like, 16 hours or something like that, from Thailand to Southeast Asia, as South Korea and South Korea to hear, you know, it's like, so I got used to it, you know. I love that airplane food, huh? You're like, I'm going back to the coal. mine. Yeah, this is terrible and healthy food. Like, what is this?

Give me that Thai prison. Yeah. Or is it Thai prison food? Or like the vegetables or like a brown rice. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like what? You're not even in America yet. I love not because I hate this food and let you do this. Yeah. Give me some good stuff, you know. Like an oily, you know, like a dripping oil. That's right. Like the in and out we had for a lot. Panda Express. Like you know, like dripping with like oils, you know, like dripping with like fat, you know. Oh, I know. And then, um, I didn't even, like, imagine bringing a plane or even coming to America, you know, and like, as I step up the

plane, I felt this strange feelings that I've been known before, you know, it's safety. Like, I was finally safe and didn't need to hide anymore. What does safety feel like? Like, if you could describe it, how would you describe it? Like, feelings are relaxed, you know, like, Every single part of your body muscles, you know, it's like relaxed, you know. And like you can't breathe, you know, like you can't breathe that air. You know, I used to breathe like fear. You know, I used to breathe like fear in China. Because every single breath that I'm taking, it's a fear.

Because I'm afraid of like getting caught. And afraid of being, you know, bitten, you know, afraid of being taken away, you know. but finally, like, breathing air, like a normal air, right? And I can feel that, I can feel like a safety in the air. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need to hide anymore. You know, I don't need to be afraid of, like, government anymore. I don't need to be afraid of something.

You know, I don't need to fear anything because I'm protected. What was the first? I'm immigrating from another country is hard, but you're basically immigrating to the 21st century. from North Korea. Yeah. I mean, it's like time warp. Yeah, right.

For me, it was like, yeah, getting into, like, time machine, you know, because a lot of North Koreans says this, you know, getting into, like, time machine, you know, fast forwarding, like, 50 years, 70 years, you know. Whereas, like, there's technology, there is, like, phone, there's a computer, there's touchscreen, there is, like, there's a drone, you know, there's, like, camera and everything.

Like, it's really unique experience. Like, it's just mind-blowing. It's just mind-blowing experience. to have all those kind of like technology in my hand, you know, and I don't know what to do with it. You know, like, is this like eating thing? Is this food? Is this like something that you wear? You know, is this something that, like, you do something with it? You know, I don't know what I'm doing with it. But the most thing that I, I did, like, I had a first smartphone in 2012. As soon as I got here, I got my smartphone, Samsung Galaxy S2, I think. And then I remember looking through that phone, you know, it's so like, it's a small T-12.

You know, it's a small television. It has more than one channel. Yeah, more than one channel. It's like a 24-hour, you know, like it has a YouTube, you know. And yeah, in North Korea, we only have, like, a one channel, which is, like, educational broadcasting, you know, like, brainwatching propaganda, you know. Like, brainwatched propaganda, you know. But, like, more than one channel, like, I was so distracted, like, watching, like, I'm like a cat, you know. I'm, like, five years old kid.

Watching every Will Smith clip. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, watching all this family guy, you know. watching that Rick and Mori was like My family guy American dad

That's my wife's favorite American dad Yeah Did you What like I know you had seen movies Yeah But I'm sure a lot of that was new

Yeah Was that Did you understand it? I didn't understand anything But just like the main characters Right characters Like how they act You know

And I didn't understand Like anything Like two years Like two years years later, you know, and then, like, I could speak, you know. Oh, yeah, because you didn't speak English at that. I didn't speak any, like, only thing that I could say was, like, thank you.

And, like, two years later, like, my ear was, like, opening. Like, I can understand you, you know, like, it's a magical moment. And then, like, somehow, like, I'm not afraid to, like, speak anymore. Because, like, I was always shy, you know, like, if I tried to speak something, like, my face turned red, you know, I couldn't, like, say anything. but like I understand like a better

you know and like movies like became like my friend you know because like I understand and then like

it's somehow I turned it into like what do you call the people with like just communicating with like a device like just only on the computer keyboard heroes

like what is? I don't know keyboard jockey I don't know geek you just you're only communicating online

no I mean like just watching the TV all day. Oh, yeah. Couch potato. Couch potato. But yeah, I was in high school. So I was like every day after school, I've done homework. I just like sitting on a TV and all day.

I think that's how I learned English. So you went to high school? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I went to high school. So you know, funny thing is? So I arrived in September 21st, 2012.

And I went to high school that right next day. The next day? Wow. Wow. Wait, you landed in L.A. though, right? No, I landed in LA and then I was on like JetBlue or something and then I went to SAC, San Jose Airport. You went to North Carolina. Yeah, so I resettled in North Cal. Yeah, NorCal. Yeah. They just put you in high school like he'll be fine. He doesn't speak English.

He's been homeless working at coal mine. Yeah. I dodged the bullet, you know. And just escape twice from the most repressive regime. Wait, so you drop, how old are you at this point? I was 17 and like, like, Like American age, I was like 17 and 11 months old. So almost 18. Almost 18. And then you went to an American high school day after you landed. Yeah. You don't speak English.

I don't speak any English. What is that like? It was chaos. I don't know anything. Like I'm like, I got to survive this. This is another whole different level of like stress I need to deal with. A whole other level. What are you talking about?

You come from a labor camp and chemistry class is freaking you out? I don't understand anything. I have to get this. I need to understand, you know. I need to write down everything what they're saying, but I don't know anything. Oh, my God. I mean, can you even write in English? No.

Did anyone know that at the school? No. I mean, like, they knew that I couldn't speak in English. They knew that I couldn't write anything, but like they put me in an ESL class, right? But I'm going to school with like freshman kids. I was almost 18. There's a 14-year-old kid that's sitting right next to me talking something about something, something, something, something. I don't understand anything.

I'm like, yeah? Yeah. Uh-huh, yeah, I don't understand anything. Does anybody know that you came from North Korea? They didn't know. Only principal and a couple of teachers knew that I was from North Korea, but they helped me a lot. Like, they keep, like, helping me, you know, helping with math. You know, they're helping with English.

But it was really tough. It was really, really tough. It was even tougher than, like, I guess, you know, a certain extent, I was tougher than working in a coal mine. Because, like, I don't understand. High school is tougher than working in a North Korean coal mine. Yeah, because I don't understand. there's a quote for the episode

in a way I can understand that because you don't speak the language yeah I don't speak the same language I don't know the culture you know I don't know like because I'm a elementary drop out in North Korea

I didn't go to school at all and even if you did you'd know about like Kim Jong-il and not a whole lot more I don't know anything about history you know but I learned that America dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in Japan and that's how they surrendered. But how I learned in North Korea is like Kim Il-sung

fought the head to toe armed Japanese soldier, Japanese like crap ton of like army and Kim Kim Il-sung came in and he beat the crap out of them and just like kick them out from North Korea and they freed us from like Japanese, right? They taught you that Kim Il-sung was responsible for ending World War II? Yes. Not just the Korean War, but not just Korean War but. winning the Japanese, you know, kicking the Japanese out of like North Korea. Are there other historical, like other versions of history that you remember learning about in the States that you were just like, oh my God, what I was told was completely wrong? Do you remember any of those moments?

Like, for example, like Kim Jong-il, you know, Kim Jong-il, you know, Kim Jong-sung, fighting Japanese, right, like kicking them off from North Korea. That's like, that's how he thought. You know, it's a thought of Japanese, right? had to tow armed. Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-il-sung, winning the war,

Korean War? It's ceasefire. It's never ending. You know, and I think Kim-O-Sung kind of lost the war. You know, but he doesn't tell us he lost.

He prevented America invading North Korea. That's the two things like the major historical. Those are the two big moments. And they both have to do with Kim Il-Sum. Yeah, they both have to do with Kim Il-Sum, right? So I'm like,

what? What surprised you most about Americans after you thought we were all werewolves and evil and then you end up in like San Jose High School they're kind so kind

caring you know because like they all helped me you know my social worker was like white lady she was like she was in like late 20s you know

and then she would always been kind to me you know and I was so surprised you know like like she was like really nice to me you know I didn't I thought like I would expect like they'd been like

like so like stubborn you know they being like so like violence you know but like they're so kind you know yeah we never talked about that kid who stole your shoes right yeah yeah right so um going back to that point so i met that's not a kid actually he's like in his like me 30s right at the time and he stole my shoes in the detention center and he i don't know what happened from then right because he stole my shoes and then he went off I was working in a detention center for a while. And then I met him in Thailand, the prison camp. Did he have your stinking shoes?

No, it's been like two years later. So he doesn't have, he has like a better shoes, right? You should have stolen his shoes. Right, I know. I was going to do that. And then like, and then, so I was a new recruit, right? So right after the next day I arrived in Thailand, they put me in a truck and they drove me to a local, like, a present camp, right?

And then I was like, we're all, like, you know, searched up, you know, make sure we don't have any drugs or anything else. And then we're all searched up, and then we went in the, like, with handcuffed, right? And then we went into the present cell, and that when we under the present cell, they uncoffed us. But I see this dude is looking so familiar, but he's not Korean. He's speaking Korean, right? He looks so familiar.

I was like, I think I've seen you somewhere. And then, oh my God, it's the dude, but he doesn't remember me. I was like, I saw you at the Chongjin, like, the detention center. And you took my shoes, and now he remembers it. I was like, oh my God, thank you so much for your shoes. Because of the shoes, I could escape. And then he's telling me this story, right? So he stole my shoes

And then he was on a train With these two police officers Who's like Transporting him And then he told me that also like When I was like when I was in interrogation Like an office I swallowed a paperclip

And then he went to the bathroom Like a couple days later And he put it out And then he kept the paper clip right And then like he He kept it in under the tongue While he was like transporting it And then he took it out

And he uncought unhandcapped. He picked the handcuffs. Yeah, he picked the handcuffs. And then he's running between the trains. But the train was moving, right? So all the doors are closed. And then all the windows were closed to, right?

So as soon as he got away, like, maybe like a couple of, like, feet. And then the guards realized he's gone. And then he's chasing him, right? He's, like, chasing him. And he's seeing all those windows, like, closed. And the doors closed too. but he's this one window that are like open and then he's running through that window

and then he's just like who-ch-you know. Dove out the window. Yeah, he dove out of the window. I don't know how fast the train is going in. I don't like, he's explained out of the train was going pretty slow. Wow.

And then he just dived out out of the train and he rolls in like in a, like a, like a rocky, Yeah. And then he walked for a couple of days and then he get back to China and then he's working in China for a while. He saved enough money. He bought a broker. And then he now he's on a journey to South Korea. And then that's how he met me. And then he took, because like he was really old and he has some money. I didn't have any money. I didn't have anything in Thailand. So like he was with me about like a month and half. I was staying in Thailand. for like eight months, but he was with me for the first month and half. Within that month and half,

he pays for everything. Like he bought me food, he bought me snack, he bought me cigarette, he bought me like everything, you know, because he's like, yeah,

because of your shoes. And like, it's like a meeting, like a hometown person. You know, it feels really good because you know that person from North Korea,

right? And then like, meeting him, like, it's like, it's like, what? Yeah, how random. That is such a,

Weird coincidence. Right? It's like, because it's so small. Life is so crazy. It's so crazy. That's so wild. Do you still keep in touch with him?

No, actually I lost contact with him when he got to Salt Korea. He gave me, like, phone number of call, but like he doesn't pick it up, so I must think he changed his number or something, yeah.

Do you remember his name? Yeah, I do remember his name? You want to just say it? Maybe he'll email us? Maybe not? Maybe not. Yeah. Got it.

Maybe not. It's a family to protect, so. Sure. I understand. How long have you been in America? It's been six years now. And I assume, do you think you'll stay here? For the rest of my life? Yeah, I got my citizenship, right? So I'm just going to be here. Yeah. This might be a weird question, but is there anything about North Korea that you miss?

I do. Actually, I do have, like, I have a lot of things that I miss about North Korea. Like North Korea, it's like, it's like, it's like clean land, you know? It's not exposed by mankind, like, humankind, you know. So it's very, very, like, original, right? It's like, it's not developed, you know. Pristine. Yeah, like, yeah, like, clean, you know. The nature is beautiful, you know, the water, you know, the air is fresh.

And, of course, my friends, like, during summer, during hot day, you know, I go out to, like, a river, you know, like a, I smell grass, grass, you know, and like smelling the river, just swimming in there, you know, the water's, like, delicious. Even the, like, river, the water's delicious. And, you know, like, a lot of people think, think that, like, North Korean people are brainwashed, trying to kill everyone, trying to kill America, trying to, like, have war with Americans, you know. But actually, that's not true, you know. I mean, like, a lot of young millennials, you know, like us, you know, they.

know about, you know, America, they know about South Korea, they know about capitalism, you know, so it's not like that. You know, it's not like, and I know that a lot of people think that North Korean people are starving to death, like most of them, but that's actually not true either. Some rich, like, North Korean high government officials, they live, like, better than, like, middle class American does. You know, they have a lot of money. They're so rich.

People who have connections with, like, governments, you know, they are rich. They can do whatever they want. They can kill someone and they can buy their way out. What did you tell me earlier at Starbucks about people who are fat and bald? Oh, yeah, right, right. I'm sorry. You know, like, no offense, but people coming from North Korea, right? I, you know, when I came here, like, culture shock was, like, people who is really, like, people who are rich, they're skinny.

people who are poor they're fat I mean I didn't understand like how is that possible you know like people who's rich shouldn't you be fat and like people who's poor

shouldn't you be skinny because you cannot eat really well and you know in North Korea fat people if you got it's the opposite but if you go to North Korea you're going to be just famous as Kim Jong-in you know because I'm so fat

yeah because you're so fat you're bold you know And North Korean people... Yeah, yeah, you're not bald. Yeah, that's so weird. Like, in America, it's the opposite, right? Yeah, it's the opposite, right? But North Korean people, like, if you go to North Korea, right? And people are starving, right?

So they don't have big tummy. And people who is bold, like, that indicates, like, you have... Like, you're educated, right? And you have, like, high class. I learned so much all my hair fell out. Yeah, so North Korean people, like, they think that if you have a big, big belly and like a bold hair like bold head they think you're working for government right you're government official so like you get like free bow free bows people have to bow to you

free bows yeah if you're bold yeah interesting because like they like think that oh like he's he's a government official official right government like he's working for the government right so he comes to you and he just they have to bow to yeah are there other things about life in america that you're still adjusting to or that don't make sense? I mean, like, I'm still adjusting to, like, a racism, you know? Adjusting to racism? Yeah, like, like, you know, like, I didn't know about the racism at all. You know, I just thought there's only yellow.

You know, but there's... You didn't know there were other... Yeah, I didn't know, there's other colors, you know, like a white, yellow, like black, you know. But I'm still learning that and I'm still adjusting it, you know, and I'm still, like, there's... It's not the culture. It's, it's about, like, 257 other cultures. that are all together, right?

And I'm still learning about the capitalism, you know, and like I, you know, I learned that like capitalism enough. It's not friendly, you know, it's always... It's not friendly. It's not friendly. You know, people always trying to make money off of you, you know, people are trying to, like, take advantage of you. You know, if you were...

If you don't speak any language, if you're not smart, they try to take, like, advantage of you, you know, You know, that's, that happened, like, so many times to me. Oh, how does that show up? Like, when does that happen to you? So, when I was in school, you know, I really wanted to get a car, you know? I really wanted to get a car. So I had a $2,000 in my hand.

I worked my butt off to make them money. And then I walked into a car dealership. I have $2,000. What kind of car can I get? This guy comes out with an Audi car key. Audi car key, right? Okay, yeah, drive it. Test it.

I don't even have a driver's license. I have a permit. Right? Do you have a learner's permit? Yeah, right? And then I had a permit. And then I handed it to him and like, oh yeah, sure. There you go.

Test drive the car. So nice. You know, the goes like crazy fast. And I'm like, I'll take it. How much is it? He's like, don't worry about it. give me your money and we'll just get you the car okay and then yeah sure and then this guy's like is my credit right credit to like apply for the credit like a loan from the bank so they sold me as like

$1,000 like $13,000.000 dollars that's sorry $13,000 yeah yeah and then this car it was it was overheated once this car engine is almost dying So they sold you the car? They sold me the car. For only $2,000 down or something? Yeah, only $2,000 down. So I have an 11 to go. Okay.

Right. That guy should be, that's ridiculous. That's like, that's unbelievable. Right. And then I bought the car. And from that day, the engine oil is leaking. Right? Engine oil is leaking.

And it gives me a problem every single day for the next like six months. And I dropped 9,000 miles and then the car blew off. Oh, my gosh. Sold your lemon. Yeah, I sold the lemon car, right? And I still have like $11,000 to go on a bank. And then the car completely blew off. Yeah, that sucks.

So I went to the dealership and like, hey, look, where what's happening? And he's like, yeah, you signed the paper. You have everything. Like, I can't do anything for you because you signed it. And apparently you bought the car, I say it is. We can't do anything for you. Yeah. I'm screwed.

And then I'm like, I have to have a car because, like, I wanted to drive left, you know, I wanted to, like, I have to go to work, I have to go to school at the same time. So I went to like, okay, so I'm not going to go to like small dealership. I'm going to go to big dealership. And also they will give me a good car. And then I had another $3,000 in my hand. So I wanted to buy a used car in the big dealership, right? I walk into the door in a Honda dealership being conquered.

This guy's, okay, you know, like, she's like, she has a big smile on his face. You know, he's super friendly. And then he's like, are you buying any cars? You know, like, I'm like, yeah, I'm looking for a car, you know, to buy it here. And he's like, yeah, come on in, you know. He's like, bend over in the table. It's like, come on in, you know. You're welcome.

You're always welcome, you know. I'm looking for a person like you to, you know, screw over, you know. And then he sold me a car on the Civic, 2015 on the Civic. So I had the $8,000 on the Audi A4 And then this guy sold me that cars of $21,000 in a maximum interest So you could have purchased as $14,000 Yeah, $14,000 but this guy's like, oh yeah, this is a kid, you know, like he doesn't know anything So like let me fuck you over, you know

He's like so plus the $8,000, $21,000 plus tax plus $8,000 So I got almost like $29,000 dollars for a Honda civic 2015 Honda Civic wow and then I had to pay like a lot of you know so I learned like really big mistake I made like yeah I made a lot of big mistakes you know and I had to learn that this is not something that I know friendly you know and you had to you know that must be hard it was really hard you know it's really really hard after everything you've been through yeah Then you get screwed over by, like, two used cars. Yeah, the worst kind of humans.

Jeez. Yeah. I have to, you know, really, really learn, you know, from my mistakes. And then, yeah. And, you know, capitalism is really, you know, not friendly. You know, and, like, one thing that, you know, like, I learned in this society, it's like, why people doesn't have empathy, you know? Why people don't.

Why do people not have empathy? Yeah, empathy for each other, you know. Like, if you're rich, like, they don't care. If you're rich, I don't care about you. Why should you care about you, you know? Do you think there was more empathy in North Korea? I guess within my friends, you know, fellow friends. You know, like, and even though if we're starving, we're starving all together, right?

And if we're struggling, we're struggling all together. You know, we're in a one boat. But, like, in here, like, everyone is, like, different levels of, like, you know. So it's really hard. And most people here, I imagine, can't begin to understand what you've been through uniquely. Yeah. You know, but, you know, I believe that this is land of opportunity, right? There is still hope.

There is a lot of good things about, you know, all the things. So if I work hard, you know, work smart, you know, I think I can achieve my dreams, you know, whatever I have. And, you know, like everything that I do, I do it with, like, hope, you know, excitement. I don't, I mean, yeah, I've been through a lot, so what. I mean, I don't live in the past. I live in present, you know, so, you know, today, I just make it today the best, you know, why not? You know, so yesterday happened, what can I do? Learn from it.

Don't do it again, you know, and just look forward, you know, keep going, you know, just just walking, you know, and it'll be fine. Do you think you had to learn how to become that way, or are you just that way? or are you just that way? I'm just, yeah, I'm just that way. You're just that way. My personality is like just that way. Yeah.

If you weren't that way, it would have been harder. Yeah, it wouldn't have been harder. Like, I wouldn't know which place I would end up today if I wasn't like that. I know, like I can't imagine. You know, I'll probably work in a cool mine all. I'll probably dead for now. I want to end on something a little lighter, you know. First of all, well, maybe this isn't later.

But how come when we went to North Korea, people on the subway and things like that, they move away from us. Nobody will talk to us. People won't look at us. Some people will look at us out of the corner of their eye. But there was very little interaction aside from hotel staff and things like that. Yeah, like I'm not sure about that because, like, I've never told, you know, there is, like, American people visiting North Korea, you know. The only thing that I've learned and only thing that I've heard was like foreign country people coming to North Korea to praise Kim Jong-il. You know, because his leadership is so great.

You know, so they come to perform in his birthday party, you know, like Kim Il-sung's birthday party, you know. And I'm not sure why is that. And I never knew about that either. Like when I was in North Korea, I've never heard about like people visiting, you know. people all over the country, like paying like $2,500 every week just to stay like. Jordan and I actually had a question for you about that. So he and I have been to North Korea several times. The first time we went, we went purely out of curiosity.

And then we both ended up kind of getting hired to lead tourists there. But I think we kept going because we wanted to understand North Korea better. Because it's really hard to understand it if you just watch the news. and we were just curious and, you know, wanted to travel. And Jordan and I have talked about this a bunch over the years. Those trips opened our eyes to a very different way of life. And I think we both feel very lucky to have seen another part of the world and get to know people from a country we wouldn't get to meet.

But there are a lot of people who, when we talk about it, when they find out that we've been there, don't think it's okay that we went to North Korea. And I kind of understand. I can appreciate that perspective because they think that if you go to North Korea, you have to pay to be there. You're supporting the government, the government that does a lot of terrible things. And it always comes down to, is the cost of tourism worth the learning opportunity? Do you understand what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

From your perspective, do you think tourism to North Korea is a positive or a negative? In a way, I see that this is, like, tourism to North Korea is, as I have pros and cons, right? Because, like, you get to see, like, the beauty of North Korea, right? Beauty of, like, at least, like, air and water, right? But everything, the pro is, pro is, like, you see a North Korea, right? I developed North Korea, you know, because, like, everything that you see within that range is what they want you to see. Sure.

Right? Because like everything that, even though you talk to like people on the street, you know, they were educated. They were like brainwashed and they have things that they have to say to you, right? And even though they say like, oh, like we need help. Do you speak Korean?

Don't. You have a translator between you and the guy, right? You and the pedestrian. So whatever you talk to them, Whatever they talk to you, it's been translated by the government, right? So you don't get to know the true North Korea by just going through North Korea with government. Right. Because, like, you're only limited to, limited to, like, the resources and limited, like, things that you are seeing.

Sure. Right. But if you want to make it, you want to go into North Korea through the border, I mean, like, through the way that I came out. Now, like, if you want to go there. I'm going to pass on that. I'm going to settle for this particular conversation in lieu of sneaking into North Korea. I mean, you're right. You don't get to see the real North Korea because you don't get to see all of it.

All of it, right? I guess my question is, is it still worth it for people to go? It's not worth it. You don't think it's worth it. It's not worth it. It's, you know, but I don't think it's really worth it because you're just supporting North Korean government, you know, because that money is going to building a nuclear weapon. building the bullets, you know, making the bullets that are going to kill North Korean people, you know, so it's not really worth it. So to you, even though the dollar amount is low, very low,

I mean, it's not, it's almost nothing. To you, it's still contributing to something really terrible. Yeah, something really terrible. Because, yeah, so I don't think it's worth it. Instead of you going into North Korea, right, to see what's happening, how about you spend their money, to find North Korean refugees that are here, right? Listen to their stories. Find organizations that who supports people, supports North Korean refugees that are trying to escape from China to South Korea. How about you help them? How about you read their stories, right?

And then how about you just help them getting out of North Korea, right? Getting out of China. I think that's something that way much more worth than going into North Korea. and I personally believe that working with North Korean refugees to, you know, changing North Korea. I think it's way worth it because North Korea, like refugees, plays really, really big role on these huge issues, right? Because people who comes out from North Korea, they still have a connection back in North Korea, they're sending, like, tremendous money back into North Korea. Like per year, $15 million are going into North Korea, right? that money is not going into any government, that money is not going into any part of nuclear weapons,

that money is truly going into like North Korea. You know, that money are used by people, right? And they're making, like, markets better, right? And helping that refugee, getting to know them a little bit better, right, getting to know them and helping them, I think that's the way that we can truly get to see North Korea, you know, because unification. When unification happened, I'll take you there.

Don't worry. I'll take you there. And I believe that I personally believe that North Korea and South Korea would be unified in my lifetime. Reunified. Reunified. You think that's going to happen. Yeah.

Well, we might take you up on that if we're going to go back. I would go back. Yeah. But I'll take you to my hometown. But let's not go, you know, until games regime crumpled. I'm not going until that happens. No. I think we've decided for sure.

I think we have made that very dangerous for ourselves. How do people date in North Korea? How do you meet women and stuff like that, you know? Yeah, I mean, like, dating is free, you know? Like, it's not like government's like, dating is like really free in North Korea. You just go to a chestnut farm, man.

Chestnut farm, yeah. It's all about the chestnut farm, you know. I remember I asked one of our tour guys where she meets guys and she goes, she looked at me like I was dumb as hell. And she goes, at the library, why? Where do you meet people? Like, library. One of our other guides said that he meets people on the intranet.

Do you remember that? Yeah. On the, like, when he's playing Counterstrike. He's playing, like, some very low-res version of some game or something. And he said he chats with girls online. I don't know about that. I mean, I think he was just lying. I mean, like, there is like an intranet, I'd say micronet, right?

Internet, yeah, existing in North Korea, right? But I don't think that guy's just BSing, you know? You can't chat with other people on that? Like within the college, you know, they're allowed to use the internet. And it's to like, you know, within like schools, like certain like areas. But yeah, I don't think. He was a little bit nutty. He was a little bit.

He was totally possible. Anyway, but go back to dating. Yeah, yeah. How does that work? Yeah, dating is like, you just, it's normal. It's like just like here, you know, like, oh, if you like me, buy me something, you know. But that's guys are playing that role. You know, girls doesn't get to play that.

So what's a date? What does a date look like in North Korea? They look like you just walk, you know, because like there's a lot of like really fun things to do in old Korea too, you know. There's actually a park in old Korea. Sounds like a fricking blast. Yeah. Do you mean like a park like with benches and trees? Yeah, benches and trees. Keep selling it. Yeah. There's also like was there like a fun, what do you call it, fun fair? Like an amusement park? Amusement park. Yeah, there is like amusement park that you can go to, but it's really expensive and poor people can't afford it. But reach people. You know, for us, so they just go to there and just hang out. It's a lot similar to here, you know, because like North Korean millennials, they've been watching so much South Korean dramas and so much foreign media.

So, like, their mentality is changing. Oh, what do you, what's that level? Can you explain what that means? Like, they watch a drama. Yeah, South Korean drama. And then how does that affect the way they date? Because, like, past, like, 20 years or so. So a lot of, like, there's, like, North Korean, like, millennials, right, who grew up after.

After the famine happened, right? After that happened, like, there's a lot of, like, foreign medias going into North Korea, right? Because, like, South Korean dramas. And people, like, at first, they didn't believe, right? Oh, this is just a setup. You know, this is, like, they're trying to brainwash us. But, like, as they keep watching it, right? And, like, wait, it's just a normal life.

You know, they love story. You know, and there is, like, they don't just see the people that are in the movie, right? They don't just see the main actors. We see people that are in background, too. We watch a lot of backgrounds, too. And, like, that's not setting. Right. So you're not just looking at the people who are talking.

You're looking and you're like, wow, there's a lot of cars. Yeah, there are a lot of cars. There's a lot of buildings. There's a lot of, like, fancy things. There's fancy tree, fancy road. And they kind of try to copy that. You know, there's a lot of trendy things in North Korea by, like, South Korean dramas, too. No.

But who's caught, they're copying the, like a fashion. Oh, okay, like the way people dress. Yeah. With dresses, you know,

way people talk, and that's, they have copied it. And like, within, like, among the friends, like,

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, oh,

I've got, you know, like, oh, the odor, what's, you know, like,

something like that, you know, like, what you doing? You know, like, how are you doing, you know? I think that's

Korean for what's up. What's that? Yeah. It's more like that. So you copy the slang and the style. Yeah, copy the slangs and the styles and like the way they date, you know, because like there's a... What does that mean?

Like South Korean dramas, it's all about love stories, right? Like rich, like the rich guy meets like a poor, like girl, you know, how to like hook up, you know, like, yeah, I think like that's... So do you think it makes that, does it make young people in North Korea more ambitious or more aggressive, like more willing to talk to people or they want to have their own love stories. Is that what you mean? Yeah. So they are like social media is changing North Korea's like perspectives, right? Lower like people's mind like slowly, you know, changing in a way that like to like capitalism, you know, like to like have like their own stories. You know, they can

write their own stories like besides like what government tells you to write, right? It sounds like that's the main difference in the new generation. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things going on. Like, now we have, like, cell phones, too, is in North Korea. So I'm, like, what? Like, there's, like, North Korean, like, average person's, like, income is $1,500 per year. $1,500 per year.

U.S. dollars? Yeah, U.S. dollars, right? Sorry. Yes, like, you have $1,500 per year. But the cell phone, just the per cell phone is, like, 700 bucks. Yes, dollars. Wow.

Wow. So half. Yeah. Basically. Like, how can you afford that? Right. Like, who's it for you? Right.

So, Charles, as we wrap here, we've been, we've gone like three episodes long or something like that. But people want to know what you're doing now. I found it surprising to hear that you had a job in IT. I thought that was kind of unusual. Yeah, yeah. So I went to coding book camp called coding dojo in Silicon Valley. Yeah. And I learned to code.

And I learned to build a website with, like, like, webcom. website using like many different languages such as like Python, like JavaScript, you know, minstack, you know, and yeah, so now I'm looking to, looking for a job as a software developer. But I mean, at the side, like I'm doing like advocacy intern in a Liberty in North Korea NGO. And yeah, but after that, you know, I'm really, really looking forward to like have all my business, you know, and a coding school, you know, where I. I teach like North Korean people how to code, you know, and like teaching them like American cultures, American language, and plus like American, you know, job, you know, well-paying job. Sure.

Yeah. That's my ultimate dream. But for now, I really wish to find a Java software developer. Can you imagine coming from a place where you're working in a coal mine that doesn't even have automated diesel steam, whatever, carts? And then you're like, oh, yeah, we need you to code something up for iOS real quick. Right. I'll toss out some pythons. Yeah.

I want you to build the website. I want you to build that AI that can communicate with people. I'm like, oh, okay. Sure thing. I got you, you know? Your tech at home is a TV with one channel and now you're coding. Yeah, now I'm like coding for it. Coding for food, you know.

Coding for food. We'll code for food. Yeah, I'll call for food. Especially in an app right here. You've shared a lot of amazing things today. And I just want to say, again, thank you so much. for talking to us because, I mean, you just said it beautifully a moment ago. Like the stories have to come out.

It's really special to sit down with somebody who's been through something so extraordinary with so much like grace and patience and faith and like, I don't know, just you have, you have like a really incredible story and I feel really lucky to hear it. My question is, what does it like to talk about it? Is it hard? Is it helpful? what does it feel like when you explain to people what you've been through? Yeah.

I mean, I guess I kind of the mentality of... I mean, I used to have... I used to have... I used to do not like to talk about my story. You know, if people ask where I'm from, I'm just telling me I'm from South Korea. Because I was like... When I got here, I didn't really like to talk about my story

because in a way, that kind of, like, brought the fear of my, you know, like, past, you know, And I really didn't, like, talk about it. But, like, I talked to, like, my counselor, you know. I had a PTSD, you know. And then... Post-traumatic stress. Yeah.

TTSD. You're saying? Yeah. So they take a D because it's not a disorder. It's something that... You just have a... Yeah. Yeah.

So, like, talking to her, I realized, like, you know, I have this fear. I'm going to live with this fear for a while. You know, I can't get rid of it because this is something that I've been through and it's feeling, you know. And the harder I try to imprison my feeling, the harder it bounce back, you know. So why don't I use my story to inspire someone? And why don't I tell my story to raise awareness? You know, why don't I tell my story to other people so that people can know, like,

what North Korean people went through? who's going through right now because my story is not unique. You know, there's a lot of people have the same story, right? And because of like that kind of mentality, I feel accomplished. You know, like, every time I talk about my story, I don't talk about my story to like, I don't want you to feel sorry for me. I want you to learn something about it.

And I don't want you to be, I don't tell my story to, you know, like, oh, Charles, you know, I feel really sad for you. you know, I feel really bad for you. I don't want that, you know, like, as long as you learn something today, I'll be appreciated. You know, if you can use my story to you, because, like, I was just 15, you know, I didn't know, but I've did it, you know, and to inspiring, inspiring someone, like, look, I did it, you know, even that situation, you know, you have, you're now in a better, much, much more better situation, you know, you can do, you can do it, too.

You know, I want to motivate someone, you know, I want to inspire. someone and I want to educate someone. You know, so I feel very, very accomplished. Yeah, like telling my story. Telling your story. It gives it meaning, right? Yeah, it gives it meaning, right? Yeah, it gives a meaning, yeah, a lot meaning, yeah, a lot of meanings.

Just in case you thought we were joking about him loving Will Smith, are you comfortable sharing your Instagram handle? You might get some new followers. Oh, yeah, yeah, I will love to. It's called Fresh Prince of Pyongyang. Yeah, yeah. Please do. So I'm trying to raise awareness, right?

So I just want to show people that. North Korean people are normal, you know, just weird as all of you, you know, and just normal as all of you, you know. So, yeah, that's why I am, you know, trying to have some followers, you know, and I'm trying to, like, put on a show, like, daily life of North Korean, you know, and, like, we keep trying to do that right now. But, yeah, so that's my goal, you know, to educate people that are North Korean people are normal. Fresh Prince of Pyongyang Best Instagram handle ever Absolutely the best Yeah

Thank you Thank you so much for sharing all this with us man You've got stories for days Even in the car You got stabbed in the butt Oh yeah How did we get to that one? Yeah

Bonus story Charles gets stabbed in the butt Maybe next time Maybe now You want to just drop it now Yeah let me just drop it now So I was Yeah that's after

I get released from the labor camp Right, so there's street crime In North Carolina There's a lot of street crimes, right? And like there's a lot of Bulli kids, you know, there's a lot of like ducks, you know, there's like gangsters

You know, there's like, blues and gangsters Like trying to, trying to take your things away And then one time, like we're fighting in our group, right? Because like, I want to defend my spot You know, I want to defend like my spot for like begging food like sleeping, you know, like, I want to defend my spot, but there's like other groups who came in and trying to kick us out, right? So we had like huge fight. And then like, I don't know, because we are fighting in like groups, right? I don't know who I'm hitting, but I'm just hitting

somebody like, ah, you know? And then I feel something really, really stink in my butt. So I looked at it and small knife, like a pencil cutting knife, right? It stuck in my butt. Like, what the heck? Stabbing the ass. Stap in the ass. Wow. It just does not end with this guy. This guy has so many...

And it's just one thing after the other, man. Yeah. And, like, it was so dead, you know? It was really... The one is really, like, short. Guess you're lucky it was only a one-inch blade. No, no, no, no, no. So the cut is, like, this white, right?

Yeah. Body when it really did. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, like, sometimes, like, I have, like, sometimes, like, I think it kind of, like, touched my bone or something. I don't know what happened, but sometimes I feel like, I feel like, I feel like the stink.

You can still feel. Yeah. So whenever I walk, try to walk, it kind of shoots right through my legs. Oh, man. I don't know what happened. Yeah. I hope it's fine. Oh, Charles.

Yeah. I'm so happy you're in America. No worries, man. Yeah. Yeah. You can now tell some people that, you know, I met a guy from North Korea who's step in the butt. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What I thought was really interesting was when we were in the car, there were all kinds of little details that you don't get from other people. of course when we're in North Korea, let alone even from other defectors, because he was on the street for so long. You were on the street for so long seeing street crime, drug dealing, prostitution. And I think somebody who's like a government official that flies to China and then says, I'm not going back home. They don't necessarily know any of this stuff because they don't see it. They're in an office somewhere.

Right, right, right. But, yeah, I'm not about the drug dealings, but I've- Well, we were talking about meth in the car. Yeah, meth in the car. Oh, if you count meth, then yeah. There's a lot of methamphetamine. Yeah, in North Korea, like, especially, like, you know, people, like, with money. You know, North Korea makes, like, the meth, you know.

And how long it's, like, the factory is there, right? So a lot of people does that, like, meth, you know. And just recreationally for fun, they do it? For fun, I guess, yeah. Yeah. And, like, some people, like, they just off, like, three days, you know. And I've also met a lot of people who's done meth, right, in a Thailand when I was seen the refugee camp because I met a lot of non-con refugees. And they're just talking about it.

It's just like mind-blowing, you know, it's like, what? Like some people laugh all the time. Some people are clean. But I'm not promoting the drug. You know, I'm not doing anything. But it's just like. So there's a lot of meth, a lot of prostitution and a lot of butt stabbing. The side of North Korea.

Yeah, the side of the very lower, you know, like very like. because, you know, you can't, if you have money, you can't drive out of your way, you know. There's a lot of, like, because, like, police officers, they don't even care, you know, because they don't even get paid enough, you know. So, like, whenever they see the crime, yes, you know. A chance to get some money. Yeah. It's an opportunity for them.

So even, like, even the prostitution, it's like, it's like where I'm came from, like, where I'm from. I'm not talking about whole North Korea, but, like, some, like, major cities, the prostitutes, is like really big, you know, like with girls with like a flowers, you know, when I was like younger, you know, when I was, and back in the days when I was living on a street, you know, I've seen a lot of ladies with like a flower, you know, that means like they're prostitutes, you know. And it's really sad to see that, you know, but you know, you have to find a way to survive. That's right. Like I promised, leaving us on a high note. But Charles, seriously, thank you so much, man. It was a pleasure getting coffee in and out and some serious North Korea.

Stories you have been through the ringer. You're 24, but at least you've got a bright future here in the States. Yeah. Yeah. If I work hard and smart, you know, that's right. Can I choose my dreams. You know it. Thanks for, thanks for inviting me here. And I was my pleasure talking about my life story. And, you know, I feel they're lucky, you know, to be here to share my story too, you know, because there's a lot of other people that didn't make it here. Didn't make it out. Yeah. No, thank you. No problem. So, Jason, were you? You're disappointed. I know that this was, I told you this was interesting.

It's not interesting, man. Edge of your seat excitement. Yes. This is, I just can't believe it. And the fact that he's not resentful, bitter, upset, totally effed up in many ways. It's just like amazing. How do you, I just can't believe it. And he just took it all in stride.

And I think part of it is he grew up in that repressive society and was an orphan. So he essentially had just already been in such a hard situation. that escaping from it was just kind of like the natural way to conclude. It was what else you're going to do, right? He seems rather well adjusted after all that he's been through. Yeah, he's a computer programmer now. He codes. He lives in L.A. like a normal guy's got a girlfriend. I mean, it's just surprisingly well adjusted for a kid who escaped from North Korea and then just got schlepped straight into high school. One thing that I just think is interesting is they just put him in a high school and he was just he didn't speak any english no clue what's going on

but at least he wasn't in north korea right although public high school in l.a i don't know also a little dodgy depending on where you end up that's true that's true but they're not going to shoot you for not putting your book in your locker properly no um they'll shoot you for something else something else yeah unfortunately great big thank you to charles rue he is just an amazing force and i expect great things from him in the future i think he's going to be doing a speaking tour wouldn't surprise me if he ends up with a book or a movie or something like that for sure. And if you want to know how I managed to find book, maintain relationships with all these great and interesting people, I use systems. I use tiny habits as well. Check out our level one course, which is free over

at advancedhumandynamics.com slash level one. That's advancedhuman dynamics.com slash level one. The problem I think that a lot of business owners and individuals have is that we're not able to make up for lost time when it comes to relationships, networking, building connections. the number one mistake I see people make is postponing this, kicking the can down the road, and not digging that well before they get thirsty. And once you need relationships, you're just way too late. It's too late to make them. These drills are designed to take just a few minutes per day.

It's the type of habit that we can ignore only at our own peril. It's the stuff I wish I knew 10, 20 years ago. It's not fluff. It is crucial. And I'm giving it all to you for free here at advancedhumandynamics.com slash level one. Speak in a building relationships. Tell me your number one takeaway from Charles Rue. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram,

doing a lot more on Instagram these days, little instructional videos and things like that. And don't forget, if you want to learn how to apply everything you learned here today from Charles, make sure you go grab the worksheets, also in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. This episode is produced and edited by Jason DeFilippo, show notes by Robert Fogarty.

Special thanks to Gabriel Mizrahi for joining me on the interview here today. Worksheets by Caleb Bacon, booking back office and last minute miracles by Jen Harbinger. And I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something that you love or use, which is hopefully in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those you don't. Got a lot more in the pipeline, very excited for what's coming up in the future here.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask,

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