The Jordan Harbinger Show - 882: Homeopathy | Skeptical Sunday

Episode Date: August 20, 2023

Is homeopathy an effective alternative medicine or an unproven, unscientific sham? Comedian Michael Regilio joins us for Skeptical Sunday to find out! On This Week's Skeptical Sunday, We Discuss: Homeopathy is an alternative medicine with a long history, relying on the principle of "like cures like" and the idea that water has memory. Despite lacking scientific proof, homeopathic products are widely marketed and sold, even though they're required to carry warnings of unproven efficacy. Homeopathic practices have faced criticism, and DNA testing has even revealed mislabeled or diluted ingredients and dangerous products on the market. Some people turn to homeopathy for stress relief and placebo effects, but many are unaware of its lack of scientific basis. While there's pushback against homeopathy, it continues to thrive due to marketing, endorsements by celebrities, and regulatory gaps. Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [e-mail] and let him know! Connect with Michael Regilio at his website, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube, and make sure to check out the Michael Regilio Plagues Well With Others podcast here or wherever you enjoy listening to fine podcasts! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/882 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger, and this is Skeptical Sunday. A special edition of the Jordan Harbinger Show where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about. Open things up and debunk common misconceptions,

topics such as why the Olympics are kind of a sham, why expiration dates are nonsense, why tipping makes no sense, fast fashion, weddings, recycling, banned foods, toothpaste, chem trails, and a whole lot more. Normally on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people

and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We've got long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about it, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic. These help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Topics like persuasion. and influence, abnormal psychology, negotiation, communication, scams, conspiracy debunks, crime and cults, and more.

Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or take a look in your Spotify app to get started. Today on Skeptical Sunday, conventional Western medicine is overwhelming, it's frustrating, it's expensive, as we all know, especially here in the United States. Alternative medicines, they sound appealing. Homeopathic medicine has the perception of being all natural. So it's no surprise that millions of people subscribe to homeopathy every year. But is this multi-billion dollar industry all a scam? Is there something to it?

Is there a balance? Comedian Michael Regilio spent some time in the House of Homeopathy and is here to make sense of it all wherever possible. Hey, Jordan, how you feeling? Pretty good. It's pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good. Wow. then homeopathy has some pills you should take.

Is that right? Before I start popping pills, what is homeopathy? A lot of us maybe haven't even heard of this. Homeopathy is a broad term, and it refers to a wide range of stuff like therapeutic, supplements, tinctures, pills, and ointments. Dr. Samuel Heneman created homeopathy in Germany over 200 years ago. It's interesting that you say created, and I might just being a pedant here, but isn't most medicine actually discovered?

Excellent point. In fact, homeopathy has never offered scientific proof backing up its claims. Although Henneman was a doctor, his fascination was with magic in the occult, which explains the creation of homeopathy better than his academic studies. This is homeopathy in a nutshell, bad medicine and magical thinking. Bad medicine and magical thinking. One sounds like an album title from the 90s, but also sounds like playing Dungeons and Dragons as opposed to legitimate medical practice.

Exactly. During the 19th century, they considered quinine a miracle drug. And Henneman noticed that when people took quinine when they were not sick, they developed similar symptoms to the sickness quine was said to cure. So he started taking large amounts of quinine and documenting how it made him feel. He concluded the cure for an illness is a substance that brings on the same symptoms. So, for example, onions make your eyes water and your nose run. then to cure your allergies, eat onions.

It's one of the theories that defines homeopathy. Like cures like. Okay, first of all, it seems like there's more psychology at play with the quinine thing. So you're taking quinine, you know you're taking quinine, suddenly you have the symptom that quinine needs to cure, or it's a weird coincidence because it's that one substance that actually has some effect. It seems like a pretty big jump to go, oh, well, in that case, like cures like. maybe again carrying allergies by gradually exposing yourself to the thing that you're allergic to.

Maybe there's something there too. But this just sounds like a bit of an overreach that sounds catchy, but I remain unconvinced. Right. As do I, to this day after the deep dive. But look, he believed that a substance that causes symptoms and a healthy person can in a tiny amount treat an illness with similar symptoms. This is intended to trigger the body's natural defense. Do you have signs of a rash? Homeopathy will have you take Routox, which,

which is diluted poison ivy. Treatments for other ailments were made from white arsenic, snake venom, chalk glands of a cow, and so on. So Heneman was on a mission to find out how ingesting everything around made you feel. He started giving himself, his friends, and his family doses of everything they could test, including stuff like strychnine and deadly nightshade. This guy must have some sweet parties, but what is deadly nightshade? Deadly lightshade, also called Belladonna, is what?

one of the most toxic plants known to man. For centuries, it was used either to poison enemies or trip your balls off from its hallucinatory effects. Just taking 600 milligrams is considered an overdose. It can be deadly because it disrupts our parasympathetic nervous system, which regulates things like sweating, heart rate, and breathing, which I think we need. Yeah, that does sound important.

And it sounds like he's got some either really good friends, or he's a terrible host and he's feeding this, and they don't know what's going on. They just wake up in their garage after the night at Dr. Henneman's house. Like, hey, man, take some deadly night shade and just let me know how the night goes. Yeah. Or it could have been, hey, you just took some deadly nightshade. Let me know how dead.

Which I've also heard of people doing stuff like that. Okay. So however he did it, he would document the effects of those dosed individuals and try and match those symptoms with a correlating sickness. It sounds similar to the old hair of the dog mentality. right, you're drunk, you got to hang over, have a beer in the morning, let it ride. Yeah, exactly. But the thing is, conventional medicine wasn't much better at this time. Doctors were trying all sorts of stuff. So in a way, it wasn't that big of a reach to try

curing a headache with a punch in the face. Well, I'd rather have a punch in the face than a shot of strickenine at one of Dr. H's parties. Yeah, well, I'm sure some of his former patients would have wished they'd been treated with a punch in the face as well, because, well, they die. I shouldn't laugh, but I mean that conclusion was kind of obvious. That was coming. Yeah, we saw that one coming. And if you've been dead a couple hundred years, I think the rule is you can laugh. But look, in the early days of homeopathy, Dr. Henneman killed some people with his experiments because his treatments included such cures as using mercury for stomach problems. Gives new meaning to the name lead belly. Actually, that joke doesn't work, but we'll move on. It also sounds like malpractice to kill your patients by giving them poison just to see what might happen.

and if that might actually have been medicine, oops, it wasn't if you're dead. Sorry about that. Well, you know what? It was that experimentation back in those days that did get us to medicine. I just don't think that Henneman was on to anything. But Mercury doesn't sound that bad

when you consider the good doctor documented that he treated at least one man with a glass of sulfuric acid. Ooh, guessing the guy had heartburn, either before or definitely after. Definitely after. He had no heart afterwards, actually, to be burned.

burned, or a stomach, I'm guessing. Wow. I mean, Henneman, unsurprisingly had to keep tinkering with this theory, since, you know, death by sulfuric acid and stuff. So he began diluting his remedies in water, and another principle of homeopathy was born. Water has memory. I mean, that's the principle anyway. This means Hedeman believed that water could preserve the memory of a substance dissolved in it even after he had diluted it to the point that none of the original substance was left. I, okay, I'm guessing this is what you meant when you said homeopathy is part magic. And again, I'm no scientist.

Water definitely does not have memory. And if it did, we're drinking memories of some really disgusting stuff over the years. Okay. Well, you know what, Heneman, if you were here, he would tell you you're wrong about that, because you are not taking into account the scientific method by which he infuses the water with the memory. He performs the act of potentization. What is potentization?

I can dissect the word, but what does he mean by this? Well, he means and homeopathy or homeopaths today will tell you that potization is the act of diluting and agitating the solution. Agitating the solution. So basically he shakes up the water. Yep, that's it. He shook it. In fact, Hedeman believed that once the water went through potentization and the more he diluted, it, the more powerful it became.

So the less of the original substance in the water, the more powerful it is. This is known in homeopathy as the law of minimum dose. And homeopathy still operates under this principle today. Heneman would take one drop of active ingredient and dilute it in 99 drops of water. This is known is a 1C solution. Okay, so after 1 to 99, there's basically nothing left. I don't know if I'd want to drink a 1 to 99 sulfuric acid dose, but it's still pretty mild. Yeah, I might take a chance.

I mean, on the 1 to 99 sulfuric acid dose. But look, we are not even close to done yet. In 2007, there was a documentary called Enemies of Reason with Richard Dawkins. It was fascinating. And he shows how we take a drop that is a 1C. This is what they really do, by the way. 1C solution is not the ultimate goal. That is just the starting point.

and then you take the drop from the 1C solution and put that in 99 drops of water shake, and now you've got a 2C solution. And remember, both Hedeman and the field of homeopathy today believes that this solution is getting stronger because of water memory. In the end, they repeat the process

until they have a 30C solution. That sounds pretty darn diluted, and this is one of those math exponential things where at what point do we run out of water on planet Earth? you actually would run out of water because it's tough to comprehend. But a 30C solution is like one drop of the original ingredient mixed into every ocean on earth combined.

First of all, who shakes that much water? But also, can't you just then take a drop of theoretically any water anywhere and you have a 30C solution of anything that's ever existed? Or am I doing that math wrong as well? First of all, I have a lot of questions. Okay. What is the water source? What about everything else that was in the water? I mean, there's a lot of fish poop in that water and far worse. And how do the homeopaths have the ability to sort of politely ask the water what substance to remember and what to forget? Because you're going to drink it. Right. That is an amazing question. It's been asked many times and homeopaths don't explain it in a satisfactory way. As I like to say, homoos don't play that. All right. You know, I love a good.

good in-living color reference that only people over 40 understand. Okay, so by remedies, I can only assume at this point you just mean ordinary water, because unless I did that whole equation thing backwards and your information is wrong, any drop of any water anywhere is a 30C solution of anything, period. Absolutely. Yeah, and Henneman began treating patients during a scarlet fever outbreak and a cholera outbreak, and guess what? His patients were never thirsty. Sort of. Dehydration was avoided by his patients, which had more effect on the fever than any other cure. Because conventional doctors at the time were using leeches and bleeding people out after cutting them with a dirty razor or whatever. So Heneman's special water seemed to be a cure

when in reality his patients were just riding out the fever. The genie was out of the magic water bottle and homeopathy really began to take off. Oh, homeopathy. Better than being bled with a dirty razor since, what are we, 1649 or whatever, I don't know, 1849? How far are we back with this crap? I think the scarlet fever outbreak was early 1800s. Okay, since 18 something. Yeah. Okay, I find it hard to believe that people just bought into these notions. It really does defy logic, but then again, they were also bloodletting and they didn't even pay doctors to do that. It weren't barbers doing that at that time as well and just letting the blood sort of drip onto the floor. It was like, okay, so that was medicine. So maybe it doesn't defy logic. The logic at the time made,

this seemed like better than the actual medicine at the time? Yeah, just a little memory water. Good for what ails you. But I mean, people of the time did push back against it. In fact, it was to test the claims of homeopathy that doctors performed the first ever double blind trial in Nuremberg. It was called the Nuremberg Salt Test of 1835. The city's leading public health official published a devastating critique of homeopathy. In it, he claimed homeopathic cures were due to diet and the healing power of nature or showed the power of belief. So that guy actually was onto something, right? Placebo and, you know, water and letting your immune system do its thing because you're

staying hydrated. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's the explanation that we would go with today. But a test was designed and they filled some files with ordinary water and others with homeopathic AI water. A code was devised, so no one knew which files contained which. results were recorded, and when the data was decoded, the trial proved that homeopathy was no different from plain water. I love that they invented a test just to be like, let's make sure

this is real. Oh, it's not. And yet here we are 200 years later being like, no, no, no, no, you can buy this at Rite Aid. Anyway, all right, so that should have been the end, man. But the homeopathic product market today, I look this up, it's worth like $10 billion worldwide as of 2021. millions of users. Some of the users are the most rich and famous people in the world, which is yet another reason not to take medical advice

from celebrities or internet influencers, including myself. This is not medical advice. This is, in fact, dismantling fake medical advice. Now, do with it what you will. But there's a homeopathic section in every grocery store,

and it always makes me roll my eyes and sort of question everything else that they sell there. Clearly what we see today, though, is this a new form of homeopathy that's like remix 2, 3.0? we ditch some of the total garbage and now we have new stuff, or is it the same garbage? No, I mean, it hasn't changed much, and that's a fact.

Homeopathy is a vague notion of a half-bake idea to begin with. So it shouldn't be surprising that there are varying definitions to the word. Thanks to the scientific method, mainstream medicine developed practices based on controlled studies that proved effective and moved away from bleeding people out. Homeopathy kept going with its feelings and watered-down solutions. Sounds like Congress. Are you suggesting the homeopathic industry is the same as any other bottled water company? Because it seems like a lot of what we get from bottled water company is just a 30C solution of every substance on planet Earth.

No, I'm not suggesting that they're the same as a bottled water company. The bottled water companies tell you that they're just selling you water, okay? Right. Look, the fact of the matter is American homeopathic doctors aren't nearly as into the water as they are into the pills and tinctures and such, which contain ingredients that are not watered down. The magical remembering water is bigger in Europe. What are the requirements for homeopathy in America? Since 1938, the Food and Drug and Cosmetic Act

has overseen the use of homeopathy. All thanks to a surgeon come politician, the controversial New York Senator, Royal Copeland, who I'd never heard of him. It sounds like a place, but whatever. Okay. He used his political power and his medical quackery beliefs to make certain homeopathy was recognized by law. Because of this, in many states today,

you don't need to do anything to practice homeopathy. No school at all. In California, you just have to state that it's for unlicensed healing arts services when you advertise. To call yourself a doctor is different. Homeopathic doctors must finish an accredited four-year school.

Only Arizona, Connecticut, Nevada, even have homeopathic medical licenses. That's still shocking, though. Well, okay, that aside, What do these people with no training say when they meet a new patient? Like, hey, I'm not a real doctor, but I'm going to play one in your life for the next few hours or months. I mean, here's the thing. Before I spend the entire episode trashing homeopathy, I've found that stereotypically,

homeopaths are nice. They're sympathetic people. They are empathetic people. Most individuals are in this for the right reason. They spend a lot of time with their patients, way more than conventional doctors. And that has a positive effect on people. In Joe Mershant's book, Cure, she explores the power of the mind's effect on our health. She says, skeptics may fear that allowing any role for the mind will encourage people to believe

in the pseudoscientific ideas of alternative therapists. But she says that this makes no sense from a neuroscience perspective because the power of thought and the mind is at play here. And homeopathy kind of borrows from this whole idea. You know what's not an obvious scam that could end up killing you or your loved one's unintentionally. The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. Yeah, Joe Marchant was on this very show.

Great episode about the Pleceeasci. Ebo effect. That was episode 716. And I love the idea that people get into this for the right reasons. I wish I'd said more about that when it comes to other nonsense that we've debunked on the show, like crystal healing, acupuncture, et cetera. We got some angry DMs. And rightly so, because most people who do this are not con artists, but they're nice people trying to help others. And there is something to be said for that. Although the problem is homeopaths and other people who mean well, but are not actually selling you science, they'll say, well, yeah, but she said the power of the mind, the power of belief. Yes, but there are major limits to that,

and that's the thing that they won't recognize. They're like, the power of belief, we can cure it. No, you can alleviate pain in some ways, but no, you're not going to cure your actual disease or underlying issues, cancer, et cetera, with this. Are these homeopathic doctors of today practicing the same things used 200 years ago? You kind of said it's essentially all the same thing. Is that still the case? Well, I mean, again, the clinics that operate under the strict adherence of Dr. Hedeman's theories, they're mostly in Europe. but there are a wide range of herbal medicines and alternative medicines that also call themselves homeopathic. I mean, it's confusing. People within the homeopathic movement will draw

distinctions between themselves and other groups. But in the end, it's just one unproven nonsense versus another unproven nonsense. And I'm not particularly concerned with drawing that distinction. I'm not homeophobic. They are all equally ineffective in my eyes. Yeah, we don't want any homeophobs here on this show. any test proven that any homeopathy treatments are effective, other than hydration? Yeah, or the placebo effect. And that's because not only is there no evidence that homeopathy can work, it cannot work unless water has memory. The theories behind homeopathy don't line up with the principles of chemistry and physics. The way drugs work is when a molecule of drug interacts with the body.

No molecule, no interaction. Several people have claimed to have proven water. has memory, but all have failed in the end. This French scientist named Jacques Beneviz got as far as getting his work on water memory published in the journal Nature, which I'm sure anyone listening would know that's an incredibly prestigious journal. But when the outside interest did independent tests of his theory using proper scientific methods, his findings fell apart. Selavi, but what are all these unproven remedies even claiming they treat?

You know, look, if it's for, you got a sore ankle, okay, fine. But if you're trying to get treatment for pancreatitis, you might want to see a real doctor. Of course, but that's the thing. Since homeopathy doesn't work on anything, the claims are for everything. Homeopathy maintains that it treats a wide variety of health issues from minor stuff like bruises, scrapes, headaches, nausea, coughs, and colds. And even chronic illnesses like allergies, migraines, depression, chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, irritable bowel syndrome, pre-mentral syndrome,

and premature my kids turning into a lizard person syndrome. I hate that one. But again, there is no scientific proof. Any homeopathic treatment does anything for any of this. So how are they allowed to market this as medicine to people? Because when I, my kid had a fever, I went to Rite Aid. They have fever all for kids. They got all these kids medication.

And then there's the, what's that company that makes the little tiny vials? It's like Boyron something. and I'm like, oh, this is the sugar in a little vial trick that doesn't do anything. How is this next to the feveral? It kind of made me angry that somebody would buy this thinking they're going to make their kid better and they're just giving their kid a crappy treat that's expensive. The kicker is the makers of homeopathic products must give their products a stamp of disapproval. Okay.

A 2016 Scientific American article states that homeopathic products are required by the Federal Trade Commission to be labeled with a warning that they are. quote, based on outdated theories not accepted by most modern medical experts. And that quote, there is no scientific evidence, the products work. So as long as there's a warning label that says this shit doesn't work, I guess you can sell anything. This is incredible. So that's on the label. People buy it even though it says right on the actual package that it does not work. I assume that has to be some small print. No, it's very readable, and it's the ultimate grift. What are the homeopathic products made from then? Is it usually just sugar pills, or is it even less than that?

No, like I said, these American homeopathic products on the shelves today can literally be made from anything, anything. I came across a homeopathic doctor who is treating patients with pieces of the Berlin Wall. I thought you were going to say, like, okay, some are sugar and some are made out of wood and some are, I don't know, white arsenic, but literal concrete and rebar. I guess he's trying to cure communism because that wall did contribute a little bit to holding that pesky iron curtain together. So I guess like, cures like, I don't know. That's ridiculous. That's so dumb. I almost don't believe you. And yet I believe you. Yeah. Well, look, I'd like to write a punchline here, but the honest to goodness truth is it's a treatment

for, wait for it, to break down emotional walls. Oh, that's so dumb. God, if you believe that, I'd like to sell you a glass of the Brooklyn Bridge, just a 30-C glass of the Brooklyn, so you can reach out and make connections with others better or something. That's so dumb. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, Michael. Really?

No, it's like, it's healing by poetic license. I don't really understand it. I've also read about ingredients that include wild duck hearts, livers, and crushed up bees. Oh, crushed up bees. Sounds like a buzz killed, Michael. Look, I'm going to get serious for a second. The craziest ingredients are the ones that are toxic and dangerous.

Some are poisonous. That makes sense. I was going to say, white arsenic and all that stuff you mentioned earlier. So are we still talking about diluted solutions anymore? Because if they're diluted, who cares if it's 30C diluted plutonium? It's not going to hurt you because you've already drank hundreds of millions of whatever gallons of that bathed in it your whole life. But if it's not diluted, now,

you're drinking poison, which sounds like a bad idea. Right. And with little oversight. So are there any regulations here? You mentioned the Food Drug Cosmetic Act, but do they, I don't know, test this stuff and say, hey, there's arsenic in here. You shouldn't feed it to your baby. It's confusing. In the United States, the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which we mentioned, regulates homeopathic products with the same requirements as real drugs. So that sounds like decent regulation. If they're actually regulating it like real drugs, someone's looking at it, someone's testing it or something, right?

No, you're shaking your head. No, I'm shaking my head because here's the thing. There are no FDA-approved products labeled as homeopathic, and I don't understand this. So the agency just says they cannot guarantee these remedies meet standards for safety, effectiveness, and quality. How is this possible? The FDA doesn't approve any of them, but you can still sell them?

I thought the point was they don't approve it so you can't sell it. I guess I totally don't understand what the FDA does. then. What the hell? You know what? I'm going to be honest with you. I did a deep dive and I don't fully understand how this works anywhere. I guess that once you put a label on the box, it says this is all bullshit. You can just sell anything. Wow. In 2022, the FDA began categorizing homeopathic products from highest to lowest risk. So these things can't be proven to work, but can be proven to be dangerous. All risk, no reward. Okay. How risky are we talking, though. Most of it does not pose any risk at all, and not because the stated ingredients aren't

dangerous, it's because often these products don't even contain the listed ingredients. Sometimes you're kind of buying nothing. There was a great article in the New York Times in which DNA testing was done on all the major herbal supplement brands. Many supplements tested had no trace of the plant advertised on the bottle. They just weren't what they said they were. Products labeled as popular herbs were shown to be diluted or just filled with the rice flour. But some of them were downright dangerous stuff that wasn't listed. We've all seen ginko-beloba supplements on the shelves to enhance our memory. But if you have a nut allergy, you might become a memory because they cut the supplements with walnuts without listing them. Side effects might include death.

And there are other hazardous ingredients, again, like deadly nightshade. What is it with the homeopaths and deadly nightshade? So people, thought they were taking supplements for all these years and they're just eating rice flour, which is kind of just, here's some carbs. That's it. Yeah. I mean, skeptic and great hater of homeopathy, James Randy, tells this joke when he starts his TED talk. A poor guy was sick and he overdosed on homeopathic medicine when he forgot to take his pills. So wait, am I in homeopathic meds right now? I just took a sip of grapefruit flavored water. Depends on who you ask. James Randy was outspoken about the fraud of homeopathy.

He famously would start lectures by taking an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills, and then he would continue on with his lecture, never getting the least bit sleepy, showing that they have no effect. That is a good stunt. That's a brilliant gimmick. Although James Randy was a showman, right? He was also into magic and stuff like that, so he understood the assignment. All right, so people are just taking bogus pills.

Got it. Right. Countless people spent years thinking they were taking all sorts of supplements when they weren't. We're talking main staples of the herbal medicine movement here like echinacea. But the funny thing is, no one was complaining. Scientists went in on their own volition to test these products. The DNA testing was part of scientific research and it wasn't based on customer complaints. That doesn't speak well of the validity of the medicinal claims if people don't notice that they're not taking any active ingredient. Uh-huh. And yet, the ones taking nothing are the lucky ones

because some of the untested, unproven homeopathic ingredients are problematic, to say the very least. I'm guessing this is when the magic spells disaster. Yes, and in the most egregious way possible. Let me tell you about the Highland Company. They are one of the leading brands distributing homeopathic products to your grocery store, Walmart, or CVS. I went to their website. It's so interesting that homeopathic remedies are always so versatile. They sell one on the site that cures colds and hemorrhoids. I mean, it might as well say Simpsons and Sun revitalizing tonic at that point.

Highland promotes, quote, safe, effective, and natural health solutions. I feel like I know ironic foreshadowing when I hear it. Safe, effective, and natural health solutions does not bode well for what you're about to say next. Yeah, and you'd be right. Sadly, you won't be surprised to learn

that they included unbelievable. Why is it deadly nightshay? in their highlands teething tablets. Oh, no, that got so much darker than I thought. Yes, these teething tablets are linked to hundreds of babies having seizures, and unbelievably sadly, heartbreakingly, 10 babies died. Oof. It will blow your fucking mind that today that product is still for sale.

What? Yes, in 2016, the FDA issued a warning against using homeopathic teething tablets, but it didn't ban their sale. The company voluntarily recalled the product, then re-released it with a reduced amount of poison for your children. Oh, God, reduced poison for baby-teathing tablets. You know what I enjoy even more than a nice, tall 30C glass of Alexander the Great? The products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. Once again, thank you so much for supporting the show. all of our sponsors can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. That's the best way to support the show. Please consider supporting those who make the show possible. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. This really seems like the kind of thing that gets you sued into oblivion and for good reason. I don't understand not only how the product is back, but how the company is even still existing.

I mean, that's 10 wrongful death suits that should have hit all at once, along with just the hammer of the U.S. government that obviously did not drop. That's beyond disappointing. They have voluntarily recalled the product several times, but the FDA's website says there is an ongoing investigation as we speak. And right now, you can just go buy a bunch of stuff for babies from Highland in every pharmacy. That's disgusting. Jesus, Regulio. I'm guessing when you said most homeopaths are good people, you don't mean the homeopathic corporations.

Hell no. Just the words homeopathic corporations sounds evil to me. Yeah, that's true. No, I meant the caregivers and patients. I think that was clear. But the people making these fake cures and bogus pills are obviously somewhere between snake oilers and oily snakes. That is getting depressing. Imagine thinking you're being a good parent. You're giving your baby something to make them feel better. It's all natural. It's going to be fine. And they die as a result. That is heartbreaking. That kind of thing makes me angry. That makes me, that pisses me off.

And this gets into the other danger of homeopathy. But ignoring effective medicine, can make taking homeopathic remedies a life and death situation. An Australian woman was diagnosed with a treatable form of cancer, but she put her trust in her homeopathic doctor who convinced her to forego conventional treatment. Once the cancer spread, the woman realized she had been had by a charlatan. There was no turning back. The cancer was on its way to taking her life.

You can read the angry letters she wrote to her homeopathic doctor from her deathbed. it's really heartbreaking. That's truly awful. I wonder how the doctor felt at that point. It's hard to say if they're a true believer or just a sociopath that doesn't care. It's hard to tell the difference at that point. I mean, I've read the letter that the woman wrote to her homeopathic doctor, and that is the accusation she's making.

Basically, her eyes have been open, and she can see that she was a charlatan the entire time, that she wasn't interested in her actual well-being, but just promoting this bogus, I wanted to say science, but it's not science. It's just this bogus medical theory. So, I mean, people have good intentions, thinking they are doing something good for their body. And it's not just homeopathic medicine. There are certain products called no sods that are promoted as homeopathic vaccines. But there's no credible scientific evidence to support these claims at all. Homeopathic vaccines, as they're called, produce responses similar to placebo and create no antibodies. So there's no proof, nothing works, and people actually die. Why do people continue to believe in homeopathy? I mean, I guess I know the answer to this, but why do people continue to believe in homeopathy? Well, you know, there is some stress release from both the placebo effect and the overall feeling of well-being people get from long visits with doctors. The placebo effect is not nothing, as we've talked about. It's well documented. As you covered in your episode with Joe Mershant, we are wired to be fooled into self-healing.

It's interesting. Studies show that stress hormones can cause people to feel like shit. And just the act of taking a pill has a calming effect. And amazingly, large pills work better than small pills. Colored pills work better than white ones. So it's understandable that people believe in homeopathy because of a personal experience. That is interesting and makes sense. Whenever we do these episodes about crystals or acupuncture or psychics, anything, really, we get email or DMs from somebody who disagrees with us because they have anecdotal evidence that somebody they know or they themselves or their dog or whatever was helped by whatever we're debunking.

And they then have to explain the logical fallacy of anecdotal evidence or explain the placebo effect or both. And a lot of times, unfortunately, it seems to go right over their head. Not that they're too dumb to understand it. They don't want to understand it. They want to believe in the thing because now they go every week or whatever. and some people, they just really want to believe. And other people are habitually bad thinkers or don't seem to have the ability to think critically very well at all. They don't seem to understand that

anecdotal evidence is not scientific. They just refuse to believe it. They're like, no, it happened to me. It's not anecdotal. It happened to me. And I'm like, that's the definition of anecdotal. But okay. And this is unfortunately very common. What about the doctors, the teachers, career homeopaths? Why do they continue to believe? Is it just a grift? They're a different breed. I'm not going to speak to their motivations, but it seems to me they want to believe in something that they know is impossible to prove. So they hang on to these long-lost arguments and logical fallacies. There was a German homeopath who set out to write a book proving homeopathy. In researching the evidence, obviously, she did it honestly and with integrity, and she flipped and wrote a book about dismantling homeopathy. Instead of opening a discussion to her findings, her colleagues immediately shunned an excommunicated. her from the field. Oof. Yeah, and now she lives

in semi-secrecy because of death threats. Oh, come on. That's ridiculous. Look, she gets me into my next point. I'm just being honest here when I say, this reminds me

of religious think or cult think. Look, people peddling homeopathy, their rationale is just upside down. They hang on to debunk theories while ignoring the facts that repeated scientific testing shows homeopathy's failure every single time.

There is no way. there anywhere in homeopathy, certainly not in like Cures Like or Water Has Memory or the less of an ingredient, the more powerful. Those arguments should be dead forever. Like Dr. Hanuman's patients, but anyway, but instead of dying, this really seems to be spreading. I see tons of people on social media hawking this stuff. I see lots of nonsense. Even unfortunately from people who kind of knew better in the beginning, but then they're like, oh, but there's a college class. Must be something to it because I'm in medical school and there's a homeopathy course and it's just lending credence to garbage. Absolutely. And now we have homeopathic lifestyle brands like

goop and push and they're not just for vagina candles anymore. I mean, celebrities like Gwyneth Paltrow and Courtney Kardashian endorse homeopathy by putting buzzwords and products out there that people associate with health and well-being. This is the concept of not just homeopathic medicine but homeopathic lifestyle. The idea of 24-hour homeopathy. It's always on, always there, like the unending scent of essential oils in a homeopath's office. They're essential, Jordan. You got to have them. I love what I see that online. Somebody says, they're essential oils. That means they're mandatory. It's like, no, it means they're the essence of something. But now I trust you even less when you're hawking your pretend medical cures.

Okay, so what is essential about them? It's essential that you believe they're unproven clans. Otherwise, why would you spend your money on smelly oil? For a bunch of essentially nothing. It is everywhere. Right. Homeopathy is an exponentially growing multi-billion dollar market. According to the 2012 National Health Interview Survey, homeopathy is practiced by 5 million adults and 1 million children.

It's become a staple of American life. Homeopathic doctors are everywhere. Homeopathic medicine is in every store. They have lobbyists in Washington and senators and congresspeople. introducing bills to protect them. To push back against this junk science may seem futile, but people and governments are doing it. I am glad the critics have a voice here too.

That's a little unnerving that there are lobbyists for this, because you get fringy, kooky stuff like psychics that portend to tell you your future, but I don't think they have a lobby in Washington being like, we should have this as part of our government. This needs to be in schools. They kind of like admit it's a grift when pressed, and they just are confident and content with the suckers that walk through their doors and they don't try and spread the thing. It's good, though, that the critics have a

voice, because otherwise this is going to get worse. A scam is one thing, but like you said, at the extreme ends of this, it's killing people like that poor woman from Australia or the babies whose parents bought teething tablets thinking that they were harmless or beneficial. So how are people pushing back against this? Obviously, they're not suing Highland out of existence like I would have hoped. I mean, there are cases against Highland. I think they're still pending, but they will survive it because the market is too big and they are too wealthy, but I mean, there are fierce critics. I read about a protest in Britain, Australia, and Canada where crowds took entire bottles of herbal sleeping pills again, proving they do nothing. Many European universities have suspended their homeopathy

programs in recent years. In 2015, Australia's National Health and Medical Research Council concluded that, quote, there is no reliable evidence that homeopathy is effective for any health condition, end quote. In 2016, the University of Barcelona canceled its master's degree program in homeopathic medicine because the Spanish health ministry no longer approved its use. In America, the controversy surrounding Highland and the FDA prompted Connecticut representative Rosa DeLaro to propose the recall Unsafeed Drugs Act, which gives the FDA mandatory recall authority over homeopathic products. It didn't pass, unfortunately, but they reintroduced the bill just this year. We'll see what happens.

Until then, the tricky part is still that these products are not FDA approved. The FDA relies on companies to do the responsible thing and recall unsafe products, but they remove little from the shelves. But hey, on the industry leader Boyron's website, in small print way down at the bottom on their site, past the all rights reserved marking, they have the legally required statement that says, quote, claims based on traditional homeopathic practices, not accepting. medical evidence, not FDA evaluated, unquote. And there's even an asterisk before it. Well, that ought to clear up any confusion, of course, because people read so carefully and definitely

are looking for objective evidence to counter their pre-existing beliefs. Absolutely. I mean, it's, honestly, it's confusing how we even got here. For sure, Samuel Hanneman lived during a time when definitive answers about what did and did not effectively cure people were impossible to conclude. His curiosity made him experiment. And he developed his theory of like cures like. When his tests failed, he changed his theory. He remained curious. Yes, he added a little magic into his theories, but it was the 1700s.

Everyone was doing it. I'm not convinced he was trying to harm or swindle anyone. His advocates today seem to lack this, his curiosity, and his willingness to admit failure and correct course. They don't believe in homeopathy because there is no better working theory. They believe in homeopathy because, well, they just want to believe in homeopathy. and if that means water is magical, then so be it. Don't water down my drugs, homeopaths.

I paid good money for that stuff. After doing this deep dive in the house that homeopathy built, I can't wait until the next time I see my real doctor. I'm going to tell them how grateful I am for them as I ask to be treated for whatever ailment I may have. And then I'm going to gently remind them, no homeopoe doc, no homeo. I got you. Well, you won't have time to do that because your doctor won't spend time with you

like a homeopathic doctor would. They're going to be in a hurry. But I get what you're saying. All right. Well, if people weren't homeophobic before, they will be now. And that joke is officially dead. Thank you, Michael. Really appreciate your time and your expertise,

or your newfound expertise on this one. I'm going to go drink a nice tall glass of 30C Empire State Building. Thanks, Michael. That'll have you standing tall. Thanks, Jordan. We've got a preview trailer of our interview with Dr. James Fallon on how psychopath brains function differently from the rest of us and why psychopaths thrive in modern society.

I'm a neuroscientist since about 1989. I've studied the brain imaging scans of killers, serial killers, really bad murders. And you should did one or two a year for many years. And then in 2005, 2006, I got set a ton of them. And I analyzed them. I said, oh, my God, there's a pattern. So I saw this pattern that nobody had ever described.

But at the same time, we were doing a clinical study on the genetics of Alzheimer's disease. And we had all the Alzheimer's patients we needed. So we needed normal, so we needed normal controls. And so I asked my family, that was kind of my first mistake. I said, look, guys, you want to all get in? My brothers, my wife. I said, we'll test you. And the idea being that on my side of the family, there was no Alzheimer's at all.

So we did it. And the two technicians walked into my office. And on my right side, I pile all these murderers, brain scans. And they handed me a pile of my family scans. And they were covered up so I couldn't see the names. And so I went through, I went through one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I was really relieved that they looked at the first pass, normal. And then I got to the last scan and it looked at it.

I said, okay, guys. I said, this is very funny. You kid around with each other, right? And I said, okay, you switched him. You took one of the worst psychopaths from this pile of murders, and you switched it into my family, ha-ha. And they go, no, it's part of your family. I said, you've got to be kidding.

I said, this guy shouldn't be walking around in open society. It's probably a very dangerous person. So I had to tear back the covering on the name of it. And there was my name. For more with Dr. James Fallon, including how to spot a psychopath in the wild, check out episode 28 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. Thank you all so much. This was a fan-suggested topic.

So please give us a significant. You can email me directly, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. Give us your thoughts. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger.com as well. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Michael Regelio can be found on Instagram at Michael Regelio. Good luck spelling that. We'll link to it in the show notes. Also, Michael Regelio Comedy.com. We'll link that in the show notes. Tour dates up now as well. This show is created an association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger,

Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And certainly before you drink any sort of dilution of a toxic poison or give it to your kids. And that's not a joke. Really, pay attention to what you're putting in your own body or the bodies of others. And remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love.

And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who needs to hear it. like somebody who believes in homeopathy and gives it to their babies or their kids or their friends. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way.

Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world. really work itch search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening you can thank me later