The Jordan Harbinger Show - 883: Annie Ikpa | The Campaign to End Child Sacrifice

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

Video editor Annie Ikpa explains how she galvanized a movement to ban child sacrifice in Uganda, and what's in store for the fight ahead. What We Discuss with Annie Ikpa: Why child sacrifice is so common in Uganda that Annie Ikpa had to spend seven years campaigning for a law against it. Who hires the exploitative witch doctors who perform these sacrifices in the name of fortune or other earthly delights? How children are selected for sacrifice because they're relatively easy to abduct, less likely to fight back, and are regarded by true believers as spiritually more "pure" than adults. Why even a child who is "lucky" enough to survive a sacrifice is left mentally and physically traumatized — often with brutal scars across their bodies, missing limbs, and/or mutilated genitals. What you can do to help raise awareness and put a stop to this barbarous practice that continues in spite of positive strides in preventative legislation. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/883 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. You're finding that witch doctors are capitalizing of people's vulnerability and promising them the world on a stick if you were to sacrifice your own child. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice so that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks,

from spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional former jihadi, drug trafficker, astronauts, or music mogul. And if you are new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of top episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime cults, and more. Just to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show, just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, Annie Iqba is an activist based in the UK who helped pass a law banning child sacrifice in Uganda.

I know there was apparently no law against child sacrifice before. Believe it or not, this was somehow hard to prosecute and actually a big problem and hard to address over there. Her story and those of the children we discuss in this episode are harrowing and somewhat graphic. So maybe no kids in the car for this one. She's a real hero. And I know you'll dig this conversation with her just as I.

did. Here we go with Annie Iqba. First of all, child sacrifice sounds like something that is made up by crazy conspiracy theorists to deflect from real problems. Have you heard that before? Like, if you told me there's child sacrifice and you said it's happening in a cult in the United States, I'd be like, eh, you're probably just reading too much fake news. But this is totally real. This is totally real. And unfortunately, I've kind of known about not child sacrifice. but I'm sort of well-versed in witchcraft and the occult. My dad is Nigerian, and there's certainly a lot of that that happens there. So I have grown up hearing these sorts of things.

But, yeah, child sacrifice was certainly a new one for me, and I can understand why people might think this isn't real. This can't be happening. Or it, like, it happened twice, and now it's like, oh, my God, it was just some mentally ill person doing it, and it's like, you know, because you hear that with serial killers. Like, there's a satanic cult, and it's like, Like, no, there's just a crazy person in one town and one area doing really crazy stuff.

For sure, it's a serial killer. But it's not like an internet-based cult that's coming to a town near you. Like media would have a lot of us believe. But this is rural Uganda where this was happening, where this maybe is happening? Not necessarily. It's certainly happening in Kampala, the city's capital too. Wow. Unfortunately, the deeds are very often carried out in villages and rural districts.

But unfortunately, it's countrywide. How did you even find out this was happening? It seems like something that even if the locals all know about it, they're not like, we need to publicize this more. It seems like even local people would be like, oh, maybe we don't talk about this. Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

It's completely taboo. I found out about this practice when I went over to Uganda to volunteer at a baby's home. I just thought, you know, they could use my services and I was looking for a bit of a break myself. and I was working within this baby's home where they rescue abandoned babies and find Ugandan families to adopt them.

So there's an orphanage, I think we call that in the United States. Is that the same thing? Kind of, but they did shy away from that because there's also a lot of, you know, unpleasant things that go on in orphanages in Uganda and they want to disassociate themselves with some of those practices, yikes.

I, selling children and two days in the West. Oh, my God. We tried to, yeah, I try not to use the word orphanage. I think they would be comfortable with babies home. Sure. And so I was working there making films. And actually within the sort of baby's home, there were lots of children who, from all ages,

who had been left or abandoned by their parents for various reasons. And one of those children had been rescued just before she was due to be sacrificed. And so she was found by a security guard. He brought her to this baby's home, and that's where they were looking after her. Where do you even begin to unpack something like this? Because I would imagine you probably have the same reaction that I'm having right now

where somebody says, oh, she's here because the security guard rescued her before she was being sacrificed. And you're like, I must have misheard what you said or this is a mistranslation or what do you talk, like, what do you mean he found her about to be sacrificed? It just sounds so bonkers. Bonkers, yes, perfect word for it. Yeah, what on earth. I mean, obviously you started to clarify the story of what happened almost immediately, yeah?

immediately. So I had heard about this child before I'd actually started working there. It was on my very first day, actually, in Uganda. And one of the media volunteers was telling me about some of the children that I was going to be meeting. And she told me about her. And I had to find her straight away. I felt this kind of closeness to her without knowing anything about her. And certainly an interest to find out more. Because personally, I was horrified that this was happening and I had never heard of it happening. So yeah, so as soon as I as soon as I started working there, I asked after this girl and yeah, she was really not in a very good way. You could tell that something awful had happened to her. You know, she was haunted and we eventually developed

a really strong bond through the work that I was doing, but just also because she was incredible and her sense of strength was just palpable. And I just wanted to be around all the time. I was actually obsessed. Not quite healthily obsessed, but I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was obsessed. I fell in love with her immediately. That's super cute. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she needed somebody like you in her life,

I would imagine at that time, just because, talk about losing faith in humanity, somebody was going to sacrifice you in a horrible way. Yeah. And I think, look, the babies are and were amazing. I think there were lots of children there, though. It's impossible to have sort of one-on-one, them to have one-on-one care,

although they did do an amazing, amazing job. But, yeah, I think we were lucky to find each other, really, this girl and I. What was going on where she was, I mean, we've heard of people sacrificing goats or something, but not people. And it's really something straight out of a horror movie. So this is a witchcraft practice? Is it ancient? Or is it kind of like, do people just make this stuff up? Or does it come from generations ago?

Is this something that's been longstanding, I guess, happening there? I don't know. Exactly that. I think witchcraft is very much sort of embedded in, within the fabrics of African tradition. It has been going on a very, very, very long time, but I don't want to give credence to it whatsoever. Certainly recently, you're finding that witch doctors are capitalising off people's vulnerability, really, and promising them the world on a stick if you were to sacrifice your own child. And that, I believe, is probably what happened to the little girl at the baby's home.

There was a widespread, widespread sort of hunt nationwide, countrywide, for anybody who knew anything about her, please come forward. This is a child that we have in our baby's home. We're looking for her parents. And nobody came forward. And I began to wonder whether or not it was because her parents were complicit, which happens a lot. That makes sense, because if there's a countrywide search for your kid

and you are also desperately searching for your kid because they're missing, it doesn't take that long, theoretically, to find, because someone's going to tell you if you don't see the poster or see it on TV or whatever yourself. Yeah. So if you are complicit and there's a nationwide, search for your kids and everyone's saying, hey, we haven't seen your daughter for a long time. Isn't this yours? And you're just like, oh, my God, they know.

And you're laying low. That's the only scenario I can imagine which you don't find your child. Yeah, exactly. Someone would know her whether or not she may well have been an orphan when that happened, but she was being cared for by someone. In fact, she turned up actually really well cared for. She looked like she came from a really good family, which is confusing in itself. That is confusing.

It is a mystery. I actually tried to investigate what happened and her police files had been lost. Yeah, that's not suspicious at all. Yeah, yeah. What a coincidence that a nationwide manhunt goes down. So this is a very important case, and then those files go missing and there's no copies anywhere. If this was a 30-year-old case, okay, files go missing, I suppose even in the best of times, nationwide, high-profile case, no police files. Yeah, suspicious as hell.

Yeah, exactly. You mentioned she was probably from a good family or that she looked like she was from a good family. that is confusing because when I think desperate enough to sell your child for sacrifice, first of all, I can't relate. At any level, I just can't relate. I mean, I would sooner be eating out of a rubbish bin than sacrifice my child for anything like this or for any reason, really. So if she looks like she came from a good family, I'm speculating here, but it almost

sounds like the family decides not to sell her for money, but for the purposes of the witchcraft itself, right? they believe she's going to serve some, maybe give them luck or something? Or am I connecting dots that aren't there? You're right to be confused. It's unfortunately not unusual. So what makes tackling this issue so difficult is that you have people from both ends of the spectrum sacrificing children.

You have got those who are really, really poor, who have been sort of told by witch doctor that, look, if you give me one of your children, then the others can eat. Yeah? The others will be okay. And you'll be fine for life. And then you've got those on the other end of the spectrum who are in really high-powered positions sacrificing to sustain their wealth. So it makes it really, really difficult from my point of view and everybody who is involved in trying to bring this practice to an end to curb it because there's no one-size-fits-all approach. You know, sure, we can go to the grassroots and try and sort of sensitize these communities that, look, this is wrong.

but it would take an entirely different approach to try and sensitize those the other end of the spectrum who are committing this. So unfortunately, yeah, your wealth and standard of living is no indication of whether or not you would end up sacrificing the child or being involved in that business at all. Right, yeah. So it's not something where you can say,

what we need is poverty alleviation at the bottom level because that's what's causing this. It's, well, yeah, that end you have psychopath crazies at the top or just believers in this religion that can't be convinced otherwise. So you don't have, yeah, like you said, there's not just a solution where you just make it so people can get clean water and suddenly they stop doing this. Yeah, it's impossible.

Well, it's not impossible because I will continue fighting this until I see a significant dent in the practice, but it's very, very hard. I can imagine. And do people believe this because it's ancient? I know I kind of asked that question before, but is this something that's been in the culture the whole time at the same rate?

Or are we seeing, because it looks like we're seeing an upswing in it for some reason lately. Or are we just finding out about it now more? That's a really good question. I think I've been making

a lot of noise about this as much as I possibly can. So I think that people's eyes are a bit more open to it. Unfortunately, it has been going on pretty consistently. There are certain times where more children sacrificed

than other times in the year, general elections are very, very common. It's very common to find that children have been gone missing, or have been found without their body parts. There's lots of construction going on in Uganda at the moment. And it is believed that when you place a child on a construction site before it's finished,

the site would be blessed. And interestingly, that is where the little girl from the baby's home was found. So when there's a real kind of push for development, unfortunately, that goes hand in how many children going missing and children being found without organs. It sounds so awful because it obviously, I mean, there's a million reasons why it's awful, but it doesn't sound quick, it's not efficient.

It's not, I mean, I don't know if there's obviously no good way to do something like this. It's horrific, but it seems like it's slow and drawn out and full of suffering even more so than just the death itself. Yeah, it is. And this isn't a pleasant, this is an awful thing to talk about. They use chloroform to obtain the child. There is no grace in the way that they kill them. They're held down by either one or two people, and they take what they want while the child is still alive.

It's just apporrent. I mean, obviously, I can't relate to this at all, right? But come on. Yeah. It's just, I'm not sure why they would want to see this child struggle up until their last breath. It's just awful. And I've heard first-hand accounts of this happening.

You know, it's bad enough as it is. So, yeah, for me, I think that's probably one of the worst parts of this. Okay, so if I'm, let's say I believe in a religion really strongly, and they say you have to sacrifice a goat, okay, I can sort of see, how people get into a belief system where they do something like that. It's a little bit like, oh, God, I really don't like when we have to kill the goat. It's really, I don't like it. Somebody else does it.

They're used to it, right? It's kind of like hunting in the United States and probably in the UK. People get used to skinning the animal. It's a little bit gross the first time you do it. But if you've been doing it since you were a kid, it's a thing. Have you done this before, may I ask? Have I done it before? Have you ever done?

Yeah. Like, not, honestly, yeah, you mean animals. Yeah, you mean animals. Okay, let's clarify. I had to take this. Yeah, I had to take the skin all. I think I've done it to a duck, and it's gross, you know, you're removing stuff, but you get used to it and you sort of desensitized yourself to it, and it's not alive, right?

You're not doing it while it's alive, and you rationalize all these different ways. Now, I didn't enjoy that. I don't do it anymore. I did it once when my friend's uncle went hunting and said, you guys got to toughen up and learn to clean these. And I'm like, okay, I obviously remember it really well. But people hunt, they get used to it. if you're doing this to your own species and it's a child and they're screaming and talking to you

and you know who they are because you kidnap them like you have to be a sociopath, you have to be. Or you would be so wrecked from doing something like this that you would never be able to live with yourself. You know, you would just never sleep again. But people do this on a regular basis? I'm so confused. Who's doing this?

Yeah, they do. And I think at the end of the day, obviously neither of us can relate to this. Right. But there is money. big business. There is money at the end of this. So every single person who is associated with this practice from abducting the child to killing and mixing with medicinal, with the herbs and what have you is, is paid. And not necessarily a lot to you or I, but it's paid a lot for them.

And this is why, this is why it's so difficult to unpack because when I first started this, I was just like, you animals, how north can you do this? And obviously I still have that notion now, but I do understand that some of these people are more desperate than you and I can ever, ever contemplate. And so they feel that this is the only way that they can emerge from that. So I've become less judgmental as I've gone along, as difficult as that is to believe.

Right. No, it's not difficult to believe that you've become less judgment. It makes sense because you've investigated this and part of investigating this would be to understand why and how anybody could ever do this. I mean, I originally when I started researching this, I was like, oh, they're just taking these kids that are homeless or something, but they're doing it to their own children or they're abducting a kid from their neighborhood. I mean, it's just, it's so horrible. I mean, when you're reading these reports that I think you co-authored, it's like you just have to pause, take a breath, go for a walk around the block, come back, finish.

It's just, it's horrible. And these are not photos I'm looking at. This is just like an account of something in that report that you'd sent me in some of these articles. and it's still just horrendous. I have to clarify that the reason people are given obviously the option to sacrifice homeless children, but they're often encouraged to sacrifice their own because the blood is more potent and the charm is more likely to work because it's a bigger sacrifice. It's the ultimate sacrifice.

Right. Oh, man. Oh, my gosh. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Annie Iqpa. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks from the show, it is because of my network. And I know networking sounds gross of lives. You're like, I don't need this.

I just talk to people. That's fine. But there is a happiness dividend from reconnecting with people. And the systems that I teach are the way to do it. It's not cringy. It's not awkward. Just practical stuff that's going to make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend and a better peer. Yes, even if you're retired.

Yes, even if your job doesn't require it. It's just a few minutes today. It's a great habit that I think a lot of top performers have. and many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find this course at jordanharbinger.com slash course.

Now, back to Annie Iqpa. So are these witch doctors? Are they above board? Is it like you do certain things above board? Obviously killing children is not above board and you've since fought to pass a law that makes sure that it's codified. We'll get to that in a minute.

But is it like you can go there and they'll bless your new car with some holy water type thing? and it's like, oh, that's the local, and then there's like the underground stuff for trusted people, or is the whole industry underground? Does that question make sense? Yeah, yeah, it does.

I think there are three kind of layers here, and unfortunately they all, you know, and three different roles within this realm, and they all seem to kind of get blurred. So you've got traditional healers who, my grandfather was one. They are sort of, you know, modern sort of medicine men, really. Go to them with an ailment, and they'll mix legitimate herbs together

and hope to cure you. and then you have, you've got your witch doctors. And within that sort of umbrella, there are sort of those who will encourage you to go to them with your sort of everyday issues like my husband is cheating on me. I want to get a promotion at work. And they will give you some herbs

to take back to your home and all be well. And then also under the witch doctor umbrella, you've got those who say, look, if you've got this problem and this problem, come to me and I will solve your issue, but you have to be involved with sacrifice, sacrifice in a child and be prepared to do that. And I'm sure there are many, many others within those. And I'm sure there's a bit of crossover too. But those are the three sort of types of forces that you've

got at work here. But I think traditional healers get a really rough time because they're often associated with witch doctors and the practice of witchcraft. And that's very, very often not the case. Yeah, it would be like if you went to your acupuncturist and she's like, hey, don't get us confused with the people that stab other people to death. These are just little needles. Tiny needles. Well, exactly. Yeah. That's a very good comparison. Yeah, feel free to use it if it's useful. I guess. I don't know. It seems, it's very odd. My intention is not to make people laugh during this episode, but it's so horrible that I almost have to keep some of this lighter because it's just shocking.

And how common, how prevalent is this? Do we have an estimate of how many kids we think maybe have been victims of this in the last 15 years or so? It's very, very difficult, very difficult because so many of these crimes do go unreported. But Humane Africa conducted a research project, and over a four-month period, they recorded one sacrifice every single week. What? In each of the 12 districts that they were working in. Oh, my God. So that gives you an idea of just how prevalent this is.

Certainly it was at the time. That's way more than I thought. You know, I was kind of hoping for a couple per year. or something. We don't hope for any. We don't hope for any, right? Of course. But knowing that this is a, yeah.

Thanks for making me sound even worse than I did by on my own. But no, I think it's just really difficult. But I think knowing that it doesn't take much asking around, particularly when I was investigating this right at the beginning, I just scratched the surface and I met so many people who had either had their child sacrifice or knew somebody who did. So that gave me an idea straight away that this is happening quite a lot, enough to want to do something obviously about it.

This is the naive question that I have to ask because somebody's thinking it. What about the police? Come on. Don't they call the cops and say, there's a witch doctor killing kids in my village or neighborhood. Maybe this shouldn't be happening.

You've got good cops and you've got bad cops, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So just levels of corruption don't allow for the prosecution of this kind of thing in many instances? I think a lot breaks down during the investigation stage,

reports go missing. Crimes and people aren't adequately interviewed or they're paid off or there are many, many things that can complicate and ultimately fail in investigation. I mean, I know that obviously we passed this law, but a lot of the work and the majority of the work needs to happen before it even gets to the courts because there is so much wrong with the system as it stands, in my opinion. You know, I've worked with some incredible people in government and the police and, you know, it's a few bad apples. So I did read some of your reporting, and in my research, I came across some really horrible stories.

There was a kid who saw, and this is paraphrase, but two naked men running around, and they just sort of spotted him and ran after him with a machete. They gave him brain damage, and I can't believe I have to read this and say this. They castrated this poor kid, and he was awake, and he remembers the whole thing. It's really one of the most evil things I've ever heard,

and there's no other way to put it. What's even more shocking is they caught the guys, but they released them without charge. And some of that is what, corruption and what's the rest? We just don't have a law that says you can't do this? Most of that is right. He didn't see anybody naked running around. He was abducted by one of his neighbors. I see.

And everything else that you just said follows. Yeah, he was caught. He was stabbed in the neck with a machete. They drained his blood and castrated him. Because he was a child, his eyewitness account was not enough to secure. a conviction. And he then lived within the same village as this man who had attacked him. Obviously, he survived. He lived in the same village as this man and we see him most days. And there was absolutely nothing that he could do or his family could do to put him away. And so he had to live with that.

That trauma, the memory. He had reconstructive surgery in Australia, a charity, very kindly funded that. But what I will say is that since the law has passed, we have put that man away. Thank goodness. And here's now in prison. Finally some good news. That must have felt really good because that guy, again, it's one of the most evil things I can think of. We have conspiracy theories here in the United States where people are like, the Democrats have a secret child sacrifice ring in the basement of a pizza parlor or whatever.

But this is like the real version of that. And it's really, really, really awful that they're getting away with it. It's really, really bad. It must feel good to put somebody like that away because I can't help but think that that was not his first attempt at a child's sacrifice, it's just the one where he got caught. No, exactly. And in fact, since Alan,

he's given quite a few interviews and he's sort of online for people to see him, read his story. The man who attacked him actually did go on to sacrifice other children. And because Alan's story got quite a lot of traction, the BBC went over and filmed their own documentary and secretly filmed this man,

posing as businessmen, wanting to obtain a child. And this man very openly and brazenly said, yeah, whatever you want, this is how we do it, and the like. So yes, he absolutely had continued to do that once he'd attacked Allen and didn't feel in any way threatened by the legal system. It's so horrific. And it really puts your work into stark relief, trying to get a law pass that criminalizes this, chasing these people down essentially. There's hidden camera footage of this witch doctor explaining, oh yeah, we befriend a child, which just adds, grossness on top of grossness. We'd befriend a child, we kidnap them, we murder them. It's just, I'm never going to forget that. And I can imagine people, imagine having a child and there's somebody

in your community doing this and you're just what, crossing the street when you see them coming? I mean, that's all you can do is avoid them and tell your kids to run if they see that guy. It's so screwed up. It's awful. And I interviewed the parents as well, actually, as part of my work. And, you know, they were just, they just felt so let down. Here is the evidence of what this man has done. And my son is telling you that this is the one who did it. But there just wasn't enough to secure a conviction. And they had to live with that with absolutely no faith. His parents really felt as though the legal system had failed them. And I agree with him. Yeah. I absolutely agree with them. And that is absolutely their story is one of those that really spurred me on to find the right

people to work with to make sure that this, this bill was passed. And I'm so glad it was. I hate to harp on the horrific details, but I think it makes sense because people are wondering, you know, wait, they're burying a kid at a construction site, what's going on here. So they're taking parts of these kids and they're mixing them into traditional medicine. So that most popular, I guess, would be the head, tongue, heart, and unfortunately the genitals, which is, well, I guess they're all equally terrible. I don't know why that seems worse somehow, but it's all while the child is alive for whatever reason. And the girl who was born for sacrifice was one of the most disgusting things I've ever. heard in my life, and I'm serious about this, is a girl who was essentially raised so that they could harvest parts of her? Is that accurate? Yeah, that's right. So she was kept in her shrine for the first eight years of her life before she was obviously rescued, and she was gradually sacrificed. So the witch doctor would remove parts of her gums, her teeth, her fingernails, not taking much at any one time, because obviously she was meant to. stay alive, right? But they gradually sacrificed her to the point that by the time I had met her,

she was in a wheelchair, she couldn't speak, she couldn't hear anything, and they had all but destroyed her. And there was absolutely no legislation on this. The only way that anybody was to be put away was if you were to prove that they had murdered somebody. And it was so difficult to prove that with existing legislation. But we had put in this provision that allows those who do exactly what that man did to her to be put away. She is in a best place now, obviously, but that was something that I had never come across. I always thought, actually, that sacrificing children always ended up and resulted in death. And that is absolutely not the case. Yeah, it was awful. It was absolutely horrible to meet her. She had been essentially used all her life.

I keep coming back to this. I know I sound like a broken record, but I just can't imagine any belief system strong enough to make this okay, especially while you're doing it. I just can't get there. I remember learning about things like the Holocaust and things that happened to extended family of mine during World War II. And with extreme belief comes all this crazy stuff, but this is like the one place. I just can't get there. No matter how much I think about it, I can't imagine the path that gets you there. No. You know, we've not grown up in that world, Jordan, you know. And again, I'm not making excuses for these people because at the end of the day they are greedy. At the heart of this are the witch doctors who are the ones encouraging this to happen.

If not for them, and it's not for this ridiculous idea that if you sacrifice a child or become rich and prosperous, then people wouldn't be doing it. Well, certainly, they wouldn't be doing it at the same level that they are. You know, creating an environment where people feel like this is okay. You know, they're being actively encouraged to do this. I know it's really difficult to try and understand who would do something like this. And I feel at the very heart, these are witch doctors who believe and understand that this is a business and a very profitable one. How do you get a law passed in Uganda?

You live not in Uganda, right, currently. Right, I'm in London. It's hard enough to get a law passed when you're in the government of the country where you're trying to get that law passed, let alone you're a regular citizen living overseas. I don't want to put words in your mouth or something like that, but I know that, like, friends of mine who are from Africa, they go back there and they're like, they consider me white when I'm there. And I'm like, you're definitely not a white guy.

Like, you're really. Me too. What are you talking about? But I would imagine, like, you actually have light skin. So I would imagine they're almost like, what the heck is going on here? You're not African? Or does that happen to you when you go, when you? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. It used to really piss me off. Rightfully so. Yeah. So denying my, you know, my heritage, my Nigerian heritage. and it made it really difficult to get stuff done. At the same time, it sort of, I don't know, made it all that bit sweeter

when I did finally crack that wall and was able to develop really strong and, you know, lifelong relationships with people. You know, I wasn't a threat. And I think that that's very often how they feel about people from the West coming over and trying to tell them how to run their country, run their lives. I mean, who the hell am I?

I'm just literally, I'm an editor. I had no legal legislative experience whatsoever. So I was absolutely winging it. And they could obviously probably tell. I think it must have been really difficult for them to accept me into the fold. I would imagine also that there's people who are like, oh, she must be from a big NGO. They probably have deep pockets.

And it's like, so who sent you here? And you're like, no, I just heard about this horrible thing. And I kind of want to eradicate it. And they're like, wait a minute. You're doing this because you actually care and you have no money. Don't bother me with this. Yeah. Well, money was a big thing.

I realized like three or four years in, holy shit, I actually need some funding to progress this, right? And that's where children on the edge came in. They funded me. They funded the rest of the project. And without them, it would have been absolutely impossible. They opened up so many doors. Their emotional support, their financial support and just their doggedness to see this through. When I finally got funding, that's when things started moving.

Thank God. Because I was losing my mind a little bit. didn't know what I was doing. First of all, you're trying to figure this out. Winging it in a Western country politically has got to be tricky. Winging it in a country where the rule of law, a little bit of this,

little bit of that, relationships or everything. And you're like, yeah, I'll fly over there and try and get something done. I mean, it almost sounds like a joke that you would get something done. Yeah, it was so funny. It was a bit of a joke. I didn't really have a plan.

It was just so sort of flying by the seat of my own pants a bit because I decided that this was something that I want to pursue had obviously no means to do it. So I would work in London, save up enough money to fly over there, and to hold a meeting with MPs, and just basically run around Kampala trying to drum up this support. I'd get this sort of sense of momentum and then have to come home and work. And so this cycle just kept going for like three or four years before finally,

yeah, I got funding and was able to actually set something up properly and official. And that's when things started really progressing. I would imagine this is something where once you found out about it, you just couldn't let it go. Because you can't give up on something like this, right? Even if it's hard, even if it's expensive, even if it's slow. I would be thinking, I'm going to be doing this for 30 years, but at least I'll have to do it. I can't go to bed at night being like, well, I tried and it was just too hard. You're asking if I contemplated giving up?

Yeah, I guess so. But also, I realize you probably did, but then couldn't. That's how I would feel. Totally. I think about seven years in, I was like, this is a bit of a curse because I want to start family. I want to live my life a little bit and do some of the things that I've always wanted to do. And because I had made this sort of like promise to myself and promised to this little girl and to so many people along the way, I couldn't.

And actually, if I had, it would have haunted me for the rest of my life. So I felt like what kept me there was the passion and the drive and all of that, but also I was trapped. because, you know, selfishly, on the other side, I didn't really want to live with the guilt of not following this three when I knew I could. And that sounds really arrogant, but I did. I knew in my heart that this bill would pass. I just needed to keep going with it.

So I felt I was doing a real disservice by stopping. It would have been lazy. It would have been lazy, understandable, but also not really your style, to just be like, well, I mean, I would imagine there were many nights where you just prayed somebody would come and take this, off your hands. Like, we got it from here. We're a big NGO with a ton of resources and lobbyists. We'll take it from here. And you're like, thank God, but that didn't happen.

Well, no, actually, it did. And I didn't want to let it go. Okay. So you're even more dogged than I thought. No, I didn't want to let it go because, and again, this sounds really arrogant. And I really don't mean it to be. I cared more about that than anyone else in the country at the time. And I was the one who was going to make sure that no money got spent badly, that things were run transparently and honestly. and with the children at the heart of everything. I just didn't trust anyone else. That makes sense.

Until the end. And I found my core team. But yeah, no, I didn't trust anyone. I mean, you probably had good a reason for that, right? You probably already tried those routes. Yes. And then it's like, we paid for this. Where did that go?

Ah, well, you know, got to feed the cats. Like, what does that mean? Or buy some land. Yeah. Right, yeah. Well, yeah, have you seen my new villa? It's progressing. By the way, we need more money.

and take a ride in my new car and we'll talk about it. There you go, you got it. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Annie Iqpa. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show

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Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Annie Ikpa. I've dealt with corruption in other countries before, and I've done interviews with people before about corruption, and it's always kind of the same thing. What's interesting in other episodes that I've done about places where it's really hard to get anything done is the people who are trying to get something done, the people in country who they're dealing with

who are kind of maybe pocketing some of this stuff, they're almost surprised that the counterparty in the US, UK, Australia, wherever doesn't want to also dip into it. So I'm wondering if anybody was like, come on, this is really good. We can ride this for a while. And you're like, no, I actually want to stop this

horrific practice. I was never approached, but I do know that members of my team were and they were never compromised. This is what I'm saying. I think I never trust anyone until right at the end when I found, you know, my core team who were like-minded. Even at that time, they were propositioned.

This, for some, is an unpopular law, you know, and people make a lot of money from this practice. There were lots of people, I feel, who didn't want this law to become enacted. So bribes, of course, were part of that process. So there is pushback on the law. I was going to ask about that. I can't imagine there's a lobby for witch doctors,

but what other kind of powerful allies would they have? Can't really answer that. Can't really answer that. Okay, fair enough. Because, you know, in the United States, when something doesn't get past, it seems like a no-brainer, you just need to look no further than the lobbying organization

for whatever manufactures the product that's been killing a zillion people. And then you have your answer. But it seems like with witchcraft, who's lobbying for witchcraft? Who knows? Well, you do know, but we can't talk about it. I see.

That's fine. Does this practice happen anywhere else? You mentioned Ghana. Does it happen all over Africa? Do we know? Does it happen in other countries that you know of? So I know of it happening in Nigeria, Ghana, yes, Botswana, Sierra, Sierra. It's quite prevalent in India and Tanzania, actually.

In Tanzania, it's albino children who are most wanted. Oh, wow. So they've got a huge problem there. What we're actually hoping is that this. This bill, which is the first of its kind, by the way, should be a benchmark or can be a benchmark for other countries who are suffering from this practice, you know, to just use and adopt these provisions. Don't take seven, eight years to do this.

There's no need. We have got something that is, you know, watertight and comprehensive. You just need to localize it. So we are hoping that other countries will follow suit. Albino children. Isn't that, that's extremely rare and hence the whole reason that they're valuable. Why? Is it more common over there? Because I feel like in my entire life, I've seen like three albino people anywhere. There are lots. Yeah, no, no, no, they're far more common in Tanzania.

I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why they are more common there. It seems like, aside from the fact that people are trying to kill you for your parts, it seems like a bad place to have no pigment in your skin, just being in a place that is that warm and sunny. And it's uncomfortable in California, I'm sure, so I can't imagine how uncomfortable it is in a place like that. On top of everything else. Yeah, I'd rather not imagine it. Yeah, on top of everything else. So when it passed, how did it feel? I mean, you must have been proud,

but also I would imagine an element of relief after so long. Like, you can finally get a good night's sleep. Yeah, I couldn't believe that it was over. I knew it was going to pass, sort of, but I had this surface level doubt. Do you ever, like, I don't know when you were going for an exam, I don't know what you were like at school, whether or not you crammed your revision end,

whether or not you're not everybody's studious. Oh, yeah, that's it. But, like, I don't, do you know, when you sort of talk your stuff, yourself down and you're like, oh, I didn't really shit with that exam, but you know, you sort of always know you actually did pretty well so that when you do do well, it feels even better. I've got this weird thing. I do do that. And I think I must have done that a bit with the bill because I talked to myself right down to the ground in the days leading up to it. And for good reason, though, I think it was touch and go for a while. So when it did actually pass, there was

just this feeling of complete and utter elation, just that the last seven, eight years had not been for nothing because that was a particular fear, how we're going to live with myself if this doesn't pass, what am I going to do with my life? It was just a feeling that I really can't describe monumental, something that had been seed of an idea eight years before, had turned into this. You must be extremely proud. I mean, you've doubtlessly saved many children's lives just because, look, putting a law against something doesn't mean nobody ever does it, but it certainly would make it harder to do, drive it more underground, make it so other people realize they can't get away with it and maybe go into a different business. I mean,

there's no kind of getting around that you've saved, possibly tens of thousands of children, just judging by the numbers that I came across online? I mean, that's a huge, huge number. And not just me, I'm sure that children's lives have been saved, but I had a really, really incredible team, you know, I have to honor them. They did incredible work, and this is not, you you know, it would have been damn near impossible without my funders, without the MP who pushed this through, without the director of public prosecutions, without World Vision, without children on the edge.

It was a real collective. And eventually it ended up being a Ugandan initiative. And that's what you want. You know, they really owned that at the end. You know, this was not mine. And I don't think it ever was. It was just so much bigger than just me. So, yes, I had so much pride.

And I still do. I have to, you know, it passed two years ago on May the 4th, and can't put into words how much it's actually changed me, and it feels like it passed 10 years ago, but it was actually, it was only two years ago, and it's doing amazing things, and it's doing what it was designed to do. And I couldn't ask them all than that.

I heard you were able to see the bill passed, but there was almost a fashion faux pa that ruined the day. You want to tell us about that? Oh, my God. First of all, how do you blow this, that particular, like way to trip on the finish line. I'm telling you. I'm telling you.

But it would have been so typically me, you know. I, yeah, I knew that I wanted to see this bill pass in real life, you know, and I didn't care what show I was working on. You know, I'm freelance. So it's really difficult to just nip out of a job for a week or two. But I knew that no matter what it was, I'd fly to Uganda and I would see this thing. And I got a call really early in the morning to say that the bill was being read. And, you know, when I say that I had a really crats few days where, you know, it was touch and go, it really was.

So it really took me by surprise. And I had about 45 minutes or so to get to Parliament. So I just threw on this jump suit, which just looked. It was too small for one. Is that like a track suit or sweatsuit? It's like an all in one. It's like an adult baby grown. Like a onesie.

You have a onesie out at the time. Yeah, exactly like a onesie. Yeah, yeah. We have a onesies too. Let me just go to the government in a onesie. Well, I thought it was really nice. It was a really nice jump suit, but just I'd been eating a lot, and it was just a bit tight and a bit inappropriate. But anyhow, I got on this kind of motorcycle taxi, told him to just, you know, drive like his life depended on it.

And I turned up. And the MP who was sort of, you know, had been championing this bill, just took one look at me. It was like, you can't come in like this. You just, you can't. Where's your bag full of other clothes that you're going to wear to go inside? Because there's no kind of leniency with Ugandan parliament. you can't sort of talk your way in. Once he'd said this, I knew that there was,

I either had to go home. Oh, no. And there was just no time. So I got my friend to send over a bag of clothes, luckily, and in the nick of time, in the nick of time, I was able to actually change and slip in and watch this bill be read. So, oh, gosh, yeah, I was very, very grateful. Wow.

Because can you imagine, like, you've been, you've been on this thing for most of your 20s and some of your, you know, and. and you're not coming in because of literally the clothes on your back. You wouldn't have it. You wouldn't have it. And then you have to tell people for the rest of your life how you didn't see the bill pass because you were wearing a jumpsuit with too much cleavage or whatever.

No, it wasn't cleavage. It was just kind of sucking kind of my skin. I didn't look nice. I really didn't look nice. And I can understand why I wasn't let in. But yeah, I would never have lived it down. Yeah, that's so funny. It's also very typically me.

I drove to the wrong city for my bar exam, which is the exam you take for being a lawyer. No way. How do you do that? How do you do that? Your mind was elsewhere. It happens when your mind is literally anywhere but in the game. Yeah. So no, thank God, right?

Thank God. What are you going to tackle next? I expect people ask you this all the time and you're like, nothing. How about I have kids and not think about this crap anymore? Well, yeah, that. But which is quite a challenge in itself. But no, I'm still going with this. So Uganda, I couldn't say goodbye to it.

So for about a year or so, I think everyone just went, we just want a bit of a break and some distance from this. But passing the law, I believe, was probably the easier part of, or the easiest part of this whole process. I want to make sure that this bill is this law is implemented. I'd like to work with communities at a grassroots level. There's just so much work to be done.

And I think, no, I'm not going to be, and I haven't been as involved as I used to be, because I'm older now, and I literally don't have the energy. I hear that. I hear that. I'm laughing because I frigging get that, man. It's a struggle. And I was single then. I've got a boyfriend now. So I just, you know, I can't keep flying back. But I and my team are back together, and we are making sure that certain things are in place so that this law is used as effectively as it can. can be. And I think independently, I would love to see other countries adopt this and work with other countries one and one, just to try and see if there is a way that, you know, the issues that they're facing can be somewhat alleviated with this law. That makes sense, right? Hammer the nails in good and tight instead of taking on a new challenge that is going to derail

your whole life. Exactly. And then I can retire. Yeah. Then I can retire from this, I think. There you go. You think. Yeah, you never know. I mean, it's, you just don't know. You don't know. don't seem like the type, but, but, you know, kids will change you. I'll tell you that. You have children. I do. I have two little kids. One's three and a half and one is one in a half-ish. And so it's not only that I don't have the energy to do something big like that anymore, it's that if I did, I certainly wouldn't spend it on something like that because my kids love seeing me and vice versa, of course. So I want to spend time with them. I don't want to like start a chain of dry cleaning businesses just to have another business running, right? Which is

the equivalent like if I've got extra energy I'm using it to go run around in the backyard or build a tree house I am not using it to get legislation passed in Africa sure well luckily that's ticked done right this is less intense right I can sort of pick and choose when I sort of go there there's no sort of deadline for this

because I imagine this is going to continue for the rest of my life but I'm hoping that I can just make a couple more dense before I become a month and then I'll properly slow down I think Good for you. Although I will say, don't wait too long for the mom thing. The earlier the better. I wish I had kids earlier. And I can imagine that you're going to be a great mom. I mean, you're a caring person. You care about kids who aren't even yours, which I think a lot of people pretend to do, but don't necessarily. So I wish you all the best with that and with everything

that you're doing. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jordan. Pleasure to be on the show. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Ishmael Beah, who at the age of 13, was forced to become a child soldier. when I was 13. The first day that we went to war, I think it was the most terrifying thing that ever happened to me just on the way there, knowing what we were going to do, but it hasn't yet happened. Having this feeling that I was descending into some kind of darkness, into some place that was going to chip away from who I had been, that I would no longer get back truly. And then there was an ambush, and then we started exchanging fire, and people who looked like us were

shooting at us. And there was a kid that when we were training had looked up to me. he was next to me, and there was an explosion, and his body flew, and he was scared. There was blood all over my face and everything, and I just lost it. I realized at that moment, I listen, if I don't shoot, I'm going to end up like everybody has who's been killed next to me. And I started shooting. Shooting to kill, and whatever could get you as high as possible. So you feel like you're kind of in a long nightmare, you took it.

That becomes a new reason to fight. You didn't want to come down from the high. But there's also, because you're on the high, you also get addicted to the violence itself. So you constantly keep yourself moving, being high, engaging in more violence, until you're removed from it. Which is where sometimes people are shocked when soldiers come back from fighting and they're traumatized. Sometimes they shoot themselves, they become violent. When you go and take out another life and dehumanize it, in reverse you dehumanize yourself, your own spirit, your own being. And it takes a lot of undoing.

I was once a kid who loved hip-hop, run DMC, LL Kul-J, learned Shakespeare, wanted to be an economist. And then I became a soldier, and I started doing things that I didn't think I would ever be able to be in a position to do. But I did them. To hear about life in a war zone where he fought for three years before being rescued by UNICEF, check out episode 622 of the Jordan Harbinger show. I forgot to ask on the show and clarified later. I asked how common, how prevalent is this? How many kids do we think this has actually happened to? Somewhere around 10,000 since 2007, perhaps for sacrificial purposes.

That is a hell of a lot of kids for absolutely no good reason. I also didn't close the loop on the twins. There was the boy whose twin brother was essentially sacrificed in a really graphic way. I think he saw the whole thing. Mob justice ended up taking the day on that one. Of course, the surviving twin, he is very traumatized, but the man who did it was murdered brutally by the village. And I don't think anybody feels bad for that.

I know, by the way, that we're already doing a fundraiser for the villages in Kenya, but I'd be remiss not to mention Annie's fundraiser here as well. It will be linked in the show notes. It's a just giving, which I think is a GoFundMe type thing for the UK. We'll link to that there in the show notes. It's a fundraiser to run awareness and sensitization within communities affected by child sacrifice, train up the judiciary over there and enable Annie to work with other countries that are also facing this issue.

It's not just Uganda. It's apparently spread quite widely throughout Africa and even India and elsewhere. so that they too can adopt and enact this law or similar law for their legal system. Again, that fundraiser will be in the show notes for those who want to participate. All things, Annie Iqba will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com or ask the AI chatbot on the website, transcripts in the show notes, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show. Also in the show notes and at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals, please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget our newsletter at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news.

We dig into an older episode, dissect the lessons and takeaways from it. If you want to know what to listen to next or just grab a gem from a past episode, the newsletter is a great place to do that. Again, Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. A lot of feedback from you guys on this, all really, really helpful and constructive. So thank you so much for that. Don't forget six-minute networking at Jordan Harbinger.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

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