The Jordan Harbinger Show - 9: Ed Latimore | The Superpower of Ignoring Social Approval

Episode Date: February 26, 2018

Ed Latimore (@EdLatimore) is a heavyweight boxer, physics major, chess nerd, survivor of Pittsburgh's public housing projects, and author of Not Caring What Other People Think Is A Superpower. "I'm so happy that I learned to like books instead of social approval." -Ed Latimore What We Discuss with Ed Latimore: What Ed Latimore learned from growing up in one of the worst environments in America. Why it's never too late to make big changes in your life -- and how to kick off the process if you're feeling resistant to making those changes. How Ed rebuilt his life from the ground up after one of his biggest defeats. Fear is a more powerful motivator than the desire to change. Why would someone who pulled Cs and Ds in high school math choose to double major in math and physics on a second try at college? And much more... Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Full show notes and resources can be found here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm so happy that I learned to like books instead of social approval. Because Jason's social approval, man, that will always work out for the worst, especially in that environment and those are the people you're trying to get the approval of. I just wanted to learn. Welcome to the Jordan Harbinger Show. As always, I'm here with my producer, Jason DePhilippo. On this episode, we'll be talking with my friend Ed Latimore. He grew up in the public housing projects in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,

And he learned a lot. I mean, this is like a prison environment. He learned perseverance through adversity, but of course he also became highly aware of himself and how much our environment affects us. And today, we'll discover what Ed learned from growing up in one of the worst environments in America and how he turned this upbringing into a set of advantages for himself. We'll also discuss why it's never too late to make big changes in your life and how to kick off that process if you're feeling like you're too old or you're too stuck to make that happen.

and we'll explore how one of his biggest defeats resulted in a lesson or set of lessons in rebuilding from the ground up and what we can all learn from the quest to kill our own ego so we can move forward. Enjoy this episode with Ed Latimore. Happy birthday today. 33, another year. Or as we say in the physics department, everyone wished me another great trip around the sun. Yes. I want to know what you're thinking about on a daylight today, your birthday. are you one of those guys who reflects on the past?

Because you had kind of a, not kind of, you had a rough pass, period. Tell us a little bit about how you were born and what you were raised in so we can get a feel for where you came from. I was born in a housing project here in Pittsburgh, PA, where I live, the Hill District. And for a long time, the Hill District was nationally known. I mean, if there was a who's who for housing projects, that the Hill District was up there. It's a rough area, man. I stumbled upon a dead body once, and I seen a young kid got hit by a car and a runaway. I think it was a drawabout maybe.

That kind of stuff just constantly happened in violence. I had been robbed when I was a kid a few times. My first time was getting stitches. I was six walking to the store, and these kids, these kids decided they were going to rob me and bust my head open with a brick. I mean, and this is like, these are just events I'm thinking of it. And now I can, like, talk about this. with like almost a bit of levity and humor. But at the time, man, that was miserable.

But I lived there until I was non. They went to tear my housing project down. So they moved us to another project across town, Northview Heights of States. That place was so bad. They actually had gates around it to keep us isolated. When I moved to Northview Heights, I started to contrast life because I was going to another high school across town

and meet new people. And I was like, wow, man, we'll be really in a, in a bad place, man. I'd seen my mom get arrested when I was 11 fighting people in the streets. And another, I watched on Christmas, just thinking about things on Christmas Eve. And I watched some guys at the other end of the courtyard. They ordered a pizza. The pizza man brought the pizza and they pulled the pizza guy out and they just, I mean,

they beat the hell out of them. All for what? For the pizza and 40 bucks on Christmas Eve. And, you know, those were the types of incidents. But there was no public transportation. A lot of times the cops wouldn't come up because. And that's how you know you're in a bad neighborhood when a cop's like, oh, I think I'm to just sit this one out.

So this is the kind of the environment I came up in. And that really, that shapes you. That shapes you when you get out of it because even though I was really fortunate and that I got to go to a high school across town. And that exposed me to a lot of different people. But I still carried a lot of the bad habits. Now, I'm still me. I think now at 33, I've learned to control or get past.

or I've gotten past most of the bad habits I've developed as a youth, but it really imprints on your psyche. I'm sure it does. What are some of the lessons that you took from growing up an environment like that that you think are beneficial? Because, of course, there's a lot of bad habits that you came up with for sure by being around all that. Is there anything that you came out with where you're like, wow, this is a benefit I got growing up in the hood? Oh, you know, I always treat everyone with respect. You know, I grew up in a neighborhood where you didn't know who knew who. You didn't know whose cousin was whose cousin. And as I got older, you didn't know who cared about jail or who didn't, who was just trying to make a name for themselves or who was trying to impress other people.

So if there was any kind of conflict, I always tried to de-escalate conflict. I always think that you're one-neuxing. missed my bad away from things getting, getting bad, man. I just don't get into conflicts with people. I'm from an era, right, where there was no trolls, man. If you wanted to say something, you had to say it to someone's face. You couldn't do it from behind a screen. That carries into how I deal with people now that I can say things from behind a screen. Because why would I want to be mean like that, you know? Right. You grew up in an area where safety and security were essentially completely illusory. There was none of that to be had. The best safety and the best security for you was

being someone who treated other people with respect and being someone who got respect, not out of fear, because you didn't want people trying you, but because you had given it initially in the beginning. So in a way, it's almost like when people say you got to create relationships around you and create a network around you for safety and security, you are literally doing this because if somebody decided they didn't like you, you're almost in a prison-like environment. When you day in, day out, have to pass through a gate and check yourself, and it's nothing serious, but it is an impediment that most people don't have to go through or deal with. They just walk back and forth to their home.

I couldn't do that, you know? And over time, you start to see the world that way. You start to wonder, you start to wonder like, okay, is this area safe? who controls this area? What are the rules here? And, you know, I struggled a little bit when I did get into what I call a polite society when I went to high school across town. How did that struggle look? I'm just curious because it sounds like, okay, you're coming from, like I said, prison-like environment where you different rules of different areas, you've got to check in, and there's gates literally around you. Then you go to the high school across town.

What's going through your mind and what did you have to change to adapt? and changed into somebody that, quote, unquote, belonged there, or at least looked like they belonged there. Well, one of the first things I had to realize is that people who aren't poor don't settle everything with violence. I used to ask kids this. And just as a conversation, icebreaker like a 14-year-old would have, I would ask, you how many times have you been in a fight?

And after a while, when enough of these kids said zero, I was like, huh, maybe I'm I am the odd one out here. Maybe there's something wrong with me. And then I get to this school across town. And people are just so civilized. I just remember thinking, man, how nice is this? I don't have to, like, freak out. I can, like, learn and not have to worry about looking over my shoulder.

Also, I quickly appreciated how easy it was to learn when you weren't dealing with disciplinary issues. Because I just took it for granted for, like, the first eight years of school, eight or nine years, that somebody was going to be in class and they were going to piss the teacher off and this was going to turn into a big back and forth and I just kind of figured at least two days out of the week

my learning was going to be disrupted in some fashion. I know I think most people have an experience like Mon where you could sit in class for 40 minutes and absorb a lesson if you wanted to. You know, the difference is if I had gone to the high school that I was a son to go to

or when I was back as a child and I went to the elementary and middle schools, I wouldn't have a choice whether I could absorb the lesson and those or the differences. How did you start to change yourself once you became aware of this? Because the theme of this episode and the theme of you, Ed, in a way, it's kind of like metamorphosis, man, because you got up and you went across town. That in itself was a big move, but how did you consciously start to adapt to that new environment? because it seems like it's got to just have been so hard to, okay, great, there's nobody disrupting class, but you can't just tell yourself one day, all right, I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore.

I mean, you've been programmed with this, and you still have to go home to it all the time. Right, and here's the thing, and I'm really fortunate about this. Remember, change takes time, takes a long time, but a different environment can do wonders if you have the ability and you have the desire to be different, if you can put yourself in a different place. You know, a lot of people say, oh, I'm a move, right?

And I always laugh at them and I go, you understand that you're the cause of your problems and you're moving. And so all you're going to do is infect this new environment with your old problems. However, I do recognize there are exceptions. And I would like to think of myself as somewhat of an exception to the rule. The big things that help me went across town. I did find friends and these people are from great families and they looked out for me. I mean, they're as good as my family to me and in some cases better. They are responsible and their parents today still consider me their child and they didn't have to.

This is not somebody that their kid grew up with their whole life. I showed up when they were all 14 start in high school and they really took me under their wing for lack of a better term. and I was very much the recipient of the benefits from positive peer pressure. I was pushed upward. All of my friends wanted to go to college, so naturally it made sense that I should probably try to go to college. Whether I succeeded or not, because I definitely didn't succeed the first time there, I carried myself in a way that would make me attractive to universities.

And that means, you know, behaving well and working hard and forming connections and really getting out there and immersing myself when it's like taking on extracurriculars. Okay, so you did this because you knew that you had to change your environment, but you couldn't just be in a different place without changing something about yourself. And so it sounds like you wanted to, and not just be in a different place, but have a different set of relationships so that you could really immerse yourself in this. So if someone is stuck right now and they're listening to this, it's not just maybe change your environment,

but it's change your environment and put down roots as deep as you can so that you can build what you had termed positive peer pressure. Because if you just move and you don't set down roots and create a network and create relationships, then you might not end up with that positive peer pressure because you're kind of just a spectator if you're there with no roots. Absolutely. Now, I could have just as easily, you know, sat on my side lines and didn't make any friends and are found people who were like the people where I came from, I could have stayed

in what was comfortable for me. but I was not interested in that life or those people. When I got into this new environment, I had to make the environment work for me. It wasn't just going to absorb it by osmosis. No, no, no. You have to, I had to throw myself in there because I didn't want to be in that environment whatsoever. I tried to keep myself away as much as possible. And holidays are no different.

I mean, I really got myself away for better or worse. I mean, there's pros and cons to this approach. So staying away from that environment as much as possible, you obviously then knew early on, I can't be around this. And how conscious was this for you? Were you thinking, if I'm around this too much, it's going to seep in like osmosis and I'm going to go in the wrong direction? Or are you just kind of like being at home makes me feel like crap because my friends have

nicer houses? Like on that spectrum, kind of where do you fall? I was more of the thought that I don't ever want to be. in this position, I understood as a youngster that I had the power to take my life in any direction. And if I stayed in this place and I stayed with these people and I didn't push myself, then I would likely end up here again. I cannot tell you how many families I knew that were two or three generations deep in housing projects. they turned 16 had a kid the kid you know turns 15 has a kid so now you got a 31 year old grandmother and i seen that and i was like i don't want anything even close to that for myself

so i wanted to be as different as i could be from the people around me and spend as much time away from it as possible and it really worked out i mean i think some of us some of us decide to be different and for whatever reason and it's never too late but once you decide you want to be different from what you're surrounded by man you have to change it you have to get away from it it's so difficult to make a change in an environment that is actively working against that change yeah amen to that i completely agree there if i'm listening right now and i want to change my environment but i'm i don't really know what the first step is what is my action that i take because you started and when I need to surround myself with different people at school. What if I'm 30 and I

realize I am in a crappy environment, where do I start the change? So you have to step away. You got to step away and kind of get a new frame of reference for yourself independent of the old habits. So if you were 30 and you were like, man, I hate all these people around. I hate my job and I go home, my friends are losers or whatever. The first thing I would tell you, man, learn to love yourself, you got to be alone. I had such a hard time being alone for a very long time. And by happenstance, I got forced into a situation or I got to be alone or at least where I got to be in a foreign social environment. And this is after high school. In this new environment, I got to really sit and, you know, look at my thoughts and go, wow, man, I'm a person who

thinks and wants to do this. I'm not just responding to my environment. I'm not just, oh, Okay, they did this. We're going to do this. And it's Friday night again. Let's go, you know, let's go do the thing I say I hate so I can forget about the week I just had at the job I say, hey, if you want to change things, you got to start with something, something central to your frame of reference, whether it's, you know, for the more drastic risk takers, you know, you quit your job and get a new job.

That'll put you immediately into a new frame of reference. You go do something that lets you start redefining yourself, that lets you find a new frame of reference to Oregon. When did you realize that you had the potential to be something or be different than the people around you where you were being raised? It sounds almost like I'm saying, when did you realize you were smart or something like that? But there's more to it because there's a lot of people who grew up around you that were probably very intelligent. Some of them might have done something with themselves and other guys. I'm sure you know people there that ended up in a life that they really could have worked their way out of, but didn't. When did you go,

wait a minute, I'm too smart for this crap. I don't want to be here because at that point, I feel like that's when you maybe started working hard at building a life for yourself. But before then, why bother? But why bother, right? So I think no one's parents are perfect, right? Everyone's parents makes some mistake. I'm really fortunate in that, you know, my mom was off in some areas, but one area,

she really, really was strong in, is that she never let us feel like we were our environment and we got that support. Different people can plant seeds at different points in your life in different ways. And I was just very fortunate that my mom, not a great disciplinarian, but did happen to drop that seed that I could learn things. I should read. I'm so happy that I learn to like books instead of social approval. Because chasing social approval, man, that will always work out for the worst, especially in that environment.

And those are the people you're trying to get the approval of. So these things that aren't pointing me towards a better direction, but they're doing something just as important. And depending on your perspective may be more important. They are keeping me from developing a taste for the other life. So you had all these different escapes. You just happened to choose nerdy ones. Right. Which turned out to be a huge blessing.

But all right. So you're starting to work your way out of this. But why did you, what was happening in your 20s? Because you really, I've heard you say, and I've read, of course, a lot of your stuff. You didn't really start working hard at building a life for yourself until your late 20s. What was going on between then? Because it seemed like you were on a role, man. New environment, new school, nerdy hobbies.

What else are you battling here? You're like a great. This is like therapy, man. It's awesome. Because I had never, I never really thought about it that way because, yeah, I had some upward momentum and it was really good. And then I get to college because I did. I got the University of Rochester. And I'll tell you what, man, I failed miserably my first year to the point where I dropped out my third semester, the beginning of my second year.

And what was the cause of failure? I had never ever developed some real emotional discipline. I just happened to be a guy who's calm and even killed. You know, and I learned how to avoid conflict. So in many ways, you know, when you're not getting into trouble,

it's kind of hard to tell, you know, if you're together or not, it's like, you know, it's like when they say, well, if you don't open your mouth,

we don't know if you're stupid, that kind of deal. Well, if you don't ever get in trouble, we don't know you have the makings of a troublemaker. It's weird as that sounds. But I got to college and I fell in love with the booze and the girls.

And those are two things that I did not have access to when I was a teenager. And for whatever reason, when I was in high school. And I really just wasted, I mean, every, every time. It's kind of silly. Like, looking back on it now, I mean, it's so funny, like thinking about my typical week at school, man. And it was like, all, let me figure out where I'm going to go party and drink out, or let's figure out what girl I'm going to try and get on. And it was one or the other. And it was ultimately, and I'll never forget because I played football.

And they kept track of all of us. And I had a guy say to me, he was like, man, you're one of the smartest guys I met. You got the lowest GPA on a team. How did that happen? And I did add a 1.2 in my first semester. Wow. You got to try to do that bad. That's like, there's no accident there.

And it was bad. So what doesn't happen to though is, you know, I decide that I want to chase this instead. And I end up with a decent girl when I'm 19. I do drop out of school as a result of most of this and spend time at home a little bit. And by time at home, my mom had moved. There was no space for me. There was a period of about three months. I remember where I was sleeping on my aunt's floor.

She had like seven people living there. And to eat during the day because I didn't have any money. I had perfected, I mean, I was, I was a thief, man. I was a good thief, too. You know, I had perfected how to, how to walk into the right aid and look like I was browsing and, you know, put slats and pringles down my pants or put a pop in my pocket. I mean, that's how we were living. And it's really, I'm not proud of it, but it is, it's part of the story, you know.

You can't ignore the parts of the story you don't like. Yeah. But that's how it was. And so I really fell off and I started dating this girl. And that probably kept me from really doing some craziness too, not because, you know, I needed her to emotionally balance me, but because her mom fed me every day. She was 15. I was 19.

Oh, my gosh. So you have, you picked your girlfriend based on where you could eat. And that's funny, but it's also kind of a sign of the times for you, right? Like, where am I going to get fed, literally? I didn't do it on that intention alone. But, you know, one thing led to another. next thing you know, I'm eating most of the time there for four years. So and it worked out, you know, it worked out great.

I didn't, I didn't die starvation. I didn't have to steal. I didn't have to don and dash often. So, you know, I hate that. I hate the don't and dash stories, man, because because as an adult, someone who makes a living from other people spending money, right? You know, it really pains me, like, to think, but I ruin somebody's night in that regard. Oh, man.

And then just desperate, stupid stuff. But these are all just parts of things that, you know, we're going downhill, on downhill. We're picking up lessons. Now, I don't know there's going to be lessons one day. It's just, man, I really don't want to die. And I don't want to move home with my mom. Is that the right kind of fear? You know, is that the right kind of motivator, I guess I should say?

Because if you're really thinking about, man, I hope I don't die or have to steal for my next meal, and I don't want to go home because it's dangerous. Is that kind of fear motivating for you, or was that, were you looking forward to something instead? Fear is a tool, and fear is really amoral or neutral, I guess. And the same fear that can make you work and bust your ass for four years so that you can get a hot-paying job so if you never go back to a life of poverty, is the exact same fear

that can make you decide to get into the dope game and start moving bricks on the corner of illegal narcotic substances and land you dead or in jail. The decisions made out of fear of poverty either way. What was the lesson that you learned in your late 20s that made you change so drastically? What happened to you?

Because it's pretty rare, I think, for people to change that dramatically that late in life. I mean, you hear about people making changes at any age. But if you were on this downward spiral, even though you had sort of gone to college and failed out and gotten back in the game, what actually made you change and made those changes stick? Because there's a lot of people who are in their 20s and 30s right now who are listening. And they're like, they're thinking, man, I don't like my situation. But how can I motivate myself to change? Is there a formula for this?

My 20s were, you know, I was progressively getting worse. but I was making progress in boxing. I was putting a lot of energy there. And so much so that I beat a guy named Dominic Brazil, who ends up going on to represent the United States and the Olympics in the 2012 Olympics. And because I beat him, I got selected to be in his group in L.A. And I had all my training paid for at a great apartment.

Life was good, man. And I'm spending all this time out there in L.A. And then I come back after they cut me. I got injured. I came back. I lost my second to last amateur fight. and so they cut me. So I come back and I got to get a job because no one's paying my expenses.

And the only jobs that I can get, I worked at T-Mobile. I was selling phones at T-Mobile. Now, I don't know if that was the only job I could get, but I wanted to alleviate the stressful situation as soon as possible because I needed to get some kind of income, some kind of revenue stream, right? So I got this job at T-Mobile and I'm making maybe, I think it was like $11 an hour, MS-plus commission, And I'll never forget, man.

I was sitting there one night and I was just like, this is miserable. I was closing a store by myself. It was cold. And I said, I need to do something. I need to change this now because I don't like this. But at that point, I remember standing there and that empty T-Mobile having been frustrated, closing out the till and making sure everything balanced. I said, I got to change.

So I put a lot of research in. I looked. and I enlisted in the National Guard so I could, one, I could have that on my resume, two, so I could get some skills with whatever MOS I select, and three, to get money to go to college, because I was going to go back to college. I said, you know, and now you're going to get it because I don't want to paint this picture like I made this decision and I was super confident. I was like, no, you know, we'll figure it out. We'll learn the math because I wasn't going to go back for just anything. I wanted to go back for something, focus, some quantitative discipline, STEM, right? And so I was going to go back for math. That was the plan.

I ended up going back for, and ultimately my degree will be in physics. I get this made. I just was fed up. I was putting things on a hold and thinking that it will work out or I get a break. And then I said, no, you know, if you want to make a change, you want change to happen, you got to make the change. So I enlisted. And I didn't know what was going to happen.

And I had just met my girlfriend. And I said, if she leaves me, that sucks. But what will really suck is if she leaves me because I'm broke and I don't have any ambition. So I bit that bullet. And, you know, it turns out it worked out. But that's what sparked the change. That's what sparked the initial change.

I was just frustrated. And I said, if I don't do it now, what am I going to do it? And I said to myself, I said, you know, the time's going to pass anyway. Am I going to turn 33? Look, ha, ha, I'm 33 today. that just happened to be the number I always used. But I said, I'm not going to turn 33 with more prospects than I have now, or am I going to be in the same position? Because I'm going to turn 33 anyway.

So I said, okay, let's do this and let's make it happen. So you decided, all right, I'm good. The time is passing. I can either work my ass off and get through it or I can while it away and end up like all these people I grew up around in the projects. But I got to ask how a kid from the projects decides to become a dual. physics and math major. Did somebody encourage you? I mean, how did you even know you're smart and who's encouraging you?

How did you get into that? It sounds like it's because I get it. People go to college and like, oh, I want to study being a dental assistant or something like that. It's like, okay. And you're like, no, I want to go into this super hard field of study. And I'm like, you're just like, you're like, oh, hmm, projects and ghetto or college. No, this is more like projects and ghetto or the Big Bang.

theory. How did this happen? Why physics and everything? So first of all, spoiler alert, I'm not a brilliant math student. One of the reasons, because I tutor kids on the side in science and math, I just love doing it. I actually don't even need to do it for money, which is great. I just love doing it. But one of the reasons why I'm so good at it is because I was a horrible math student. I mean, I went into high school so behind because of the way middle school was that I looked at my transcript because for whatever reason I had to get my high school transcript when I transferred from a two-year to a four-year university. When I looked at my math and I was like, man, I know it was bad, but damn, man, there are Ds on here and Cs. And then I tried to do calculus.

It took me four tries to get calculus on the fourth try I did, but the other, the first try. three I failed, you know, it's not all academic reasons, but a lot of it, you know. But I really wanted that. I wanted that because in my mind, I said, okay, because the way I think, the way I approach problems is, okay, here's the end goal, that's where I need to get to. Okay, what do I have to go through? Do I have to go through fires? Do I have to go under the bridge? Do I have to answer three riddles? You know, whatever the trials are, then I just prepare for them. So I said, okay, I need to go to college for something that's worth a decent salary. I looked up all the salaries. I kept trying to get around it, but it all kept coming back to math. So I said, okay, I got to learn math. So

after I enlisted, I enlisted in January, January 4th, 2013. I spent the next six months every single day doing problems, shoring up my math gaps and weaknesses. I mean, really, I mean, I've re-learned all of math from like basic geometry all the way up to why integration works. And I really spent a lot of time doing problems. Thank goodness we live in the internet age. It was super easy to get problems, sets to work and to see tutorials and things like that. I really took initiative for my learning, maybe for the first time of my life. Who is encouraging you at this point? No one's encouraging me. At this point, at this point, I am 27, 28, I guess. looking at my future and going and going, you know what?

I feel like when I think about this moment, when I'm looking at my future and making these decisions and in my head's all dark and cold, I can project into the future. I know I don't want to be some 33-year-old bum making $12 an hour who's so unhappy to go to work but has to go to work to make the rent and that he's sharing with two other adults who made other equally foolish decisions. I saw that. I projected it. I don't want to be disliked. I want people to look up to me. I always wanted that. I wanted to be respected. At this point, it was easy. And it seems easy, I guess. I guess I'm saying it's easy. But what I mean is, when I say it's easy, I mean that there were no other decisions that made sense to me. It was go

do this. Go do this. At the very least, a worst case scenario, fell trying to make your life better, but to just accept this situation, even if you were terrible, and the first time you went, because I used to say this, I say, you know, the first time I went to college, I was emotionally immature, I got sucked into the scene. Okay, cool. But that was when you were 19. You're 28. Now, what's your excuse? And I didn't have one. I couldn't make one for myself. So all that was left was the course of action and was going to get me closer to being the person that I wanted to be, the person I believed that could be. So you used this sort of visual as almost like visualization or projection.

And then you saw the scary future and you used that fear of mediocrity or going quote unquote back to where you came from and that way with the at the projects and things like that. You use that fear to motivate you forward. And that's how you ended up dual physics math major, fluent in French, getting into the boxing thing. Because it seems like you really realize, you had to remind yourself. Maybe not what you're running away from, but what you're trying really hard not to get sucked back in by. Right. You know, and those are the motivations can come from either places.

You can either be trying to get away from something or you can be moving towards a thing. Now, it's best if you have both, right? I really think I had both working to my advantage. So you've done a lot of different professions, pursuits. You're definitely a polymath, right? Chess, boxing, electrical engineering, physics, French. Do you have a heuristic for deciding what you want to pursue? How do you decide what to get into?

I know it's not just flipping. What's the decision-making process? Why do I choose these things? I originally chose math. I decided, you know, after I went to this thing called BMAT at Fort Lee, Virginia, which is basic mechanical and electronic theory for the MOS that I got in the military, which was a 94-alpha or a land combat and missile systems, Corpairor. That's a mouthful. But they sent everyone in the non-divor series to Orton in school in Fort Lee, Virginia. And it was there that I learned, oh, I think I want to do electrical engineering. And as part of doing engineering, you have to take physics. And I remember in my physics class, we did the experiment for kinematic motion, how projectiles fall with no other force acting on them, but gravity and the initial.

angle of their launch from. And I remember my projection was right. Like the B landed where I said it would land based on numbers. And I was like, oh, that's cool. That's what I really want to learn. That's magic right there. So that's how I ended up with physics. As far as boxing, you know, I was wasting my life, right? Because I didn't start boxing until I was like, I think 22 or 23. I can't remember which one. But prior to that, I wasn't doing anything. And I used to have these arguments with the mother who was feeding me. She happened to be a university professor, and I was on this big anti-university tear. I used to talk about how stupid college was, and this was the worst person, of course, to talk to about that. So she said to me one day, she said to me, she's like,

well, what have you done for four years? You know, even if you sat in the monastery, where have you applaud your energy? You just come here and eat my food, and then she threw me out. Oh, damn. Wow. Wow. Oh, man, I got, you know what's funny. Now me and me and Laurel, or Professor Roberts, whatever. Well, no, we're great friends now. I mean, she took me to dinner before I shipped off. Oh, yeah, on a first name basis.

That says something. Oh, yeah, right. I mean, and she effectively treated me like her child of four years. I mean, there's so, so I'm really, I'm really happy about it. But I tell that story and I'll tell her how I tell people that story because it really motivated me. I said, what, yeah, she's right. I mean, I'm pretty sure my 22-year-year-old.

old self went home and cried thinking about that. Like, she is exactly right. I have no time equity. I can't show anything for my time on this planet other than, you know, drinking stories. So I went and I wanted the box. And I said, I'm going to try a boxing. Let's see how that one goes. And I want to hear about the boxing game because your name was, first of all, your boxing name was Black Magic, which pretty fun. I see what you did there. And I like it. And I just thought, Okay, anybody who chooses that for themselves either has a great sense of humor or, yeah, I mean, there are other options. But I figured, okay, I'm going to get along with this guy. So you're boxing, you're doing really, really well, and you end up in a fight and you got beat in this fight, but it wasn't just a physical beat.

It put you out for a year. It seems like it really had, no pun intended, an impact on you. Oh, man, aside from what we eventually realized was, a concussion, I was financially devastated, not because I was blowing money, but I mean, you don't make that much money in boxing anyway. I was making more than the average box at my fight level, but now that was gone, so I needed to figure out what I was going to do for money, which led to me, you know, figuring out online business and tutoring and things that out of nature. I had to do that. I needed to see if I even wanted to fight anymore.

But to do that, I had to determine if I had reached my limits, because boxing is weird, man. It can get in your head. Just because, you know, losing one fight isn't the end of the world. It shouldn't be anyhow, but a lot of fighters treated that way. And then I realized why, man, because now I was effectively, you know, starting over. Yeah, you kind of fell off the mountain. So take us through that. When you got beat in that fight, what was your first reaction?

Did you feel immediately like you were starting over? Because I think we should really deep dive into this. Because if you fell off the mountain where you were on the top, man, you were feeding yourself boxing. People were giving you props and rightly so. You're crushing the fights. And then you end up falling off the mountain. You get a hard beat. And now, of course, this is something you look back on almost fondly.

But what's going through your head at that point after you lose this fight? oh man one what am i going to do financially that was the the biggest thing two you know am i really hurt or not because even though i was i was like down and out right at that moment i you know i i never really questioned coming back to fighting it wasn't until you know at least at that moment i didn't so the money my my body now at this point i wonder you know I'm going to end up spending the next year realizing that the reason people follow and liking and engage with me has almost nothing to do with the boxing directly. But I don't know this.

Right. I think that I've built what I've built based on the fact that I throw punches. Right. So you created a story in your mind where other people valued something about you. And then once you had felt that that had been taken away, you felt that you lost the value. But really, people valued other things. and you didn't lose it. Right.

You know, I really, and I hate that I did it, but I really made my identity a boxer. I mean, and it was never that way. It was never that way, not for any moment, but it just kind as you're accelerating, you get people interested in you who have, who are like legit people. I mean, everyone knows who Jay-Z is, right?

Everyone knows a rock nationist. If you're not grounded, and I thought I was grounded, it, but I started to see myself as something more. If you ain't doing anything, you make a mistake, there's no, it's no penalty, man. There's no rate. There's no distance. But I was like, you know, that fight and then the next fight was almost certainly going to be in Vegas

or Madison Square. And I was like, oh, cool. We'll just get through this guy. Nah, it didn't work out that way. I wasn't focusing on the things that were important. How did you get through this? You list these important lessons like perspective. people and the willingness to face fears.

I would love to get into some of this stuff. This is in part where I find myself in a way right now, having run another show for 11 years and now doing this show, starting from scratch, I also went slash am going through this sort of this emotional situation where I go, oh my gosh, was my identity this person who was valued by people because of this audience or is there more to it? And I've really had to do a lot of introspection and make sure that I'm not driving myself crazy.

And in addition, that I really can wrap my mind around it. And I would imagine that's where you were as well. Is this something, can I get back on top? Do I need to get back on top? And who am I without this particular thing in my life? Man, you do you get it. You get it because you asked the three questions. You know, who am I?

Do I need to get back? back on top and if I and if I need to can I even do that right yeah and and how do you answer those questions objectivity how do you gain the objectivity Tom it took me probably a little longer than it should have but you know whatever it took me 10 months to watch my fight and that's and and it took me that long because I couldn't bear to watch myself get crushed I couldn't watch and listen with the announcers. I actually still haven't listened to the announcers. I probably should do that. But the point, though, is that I needed to be able to look at the event and kind of analyze it. I couldn't because my emotions were too caught up in it. But when I got the

proper perspective and I was able to look at it, I could see, okay, you got caught. You got caught with a punch. I mean, there was an error. You kind of sat in an area that you shouldn't have set. that and you know that, but in no way does this reflect poorly on your boxing ability. And that's what I was saying. You know, I look at the fight and I look at it and I go, okay, did I lose because I suck? Like, really? Or did I lose because these are 200 pound plus men throwing leather and I didn't move off center enough? I looked at the punch and the punch actually kind of goes through my guard, man.

He's a strong dude, man. It's a good punch, right? But those are kind of questions. I couldn't ask myself until I watched the video, and I couldn't watch the video until I had felt better about myself. We're going to apply that to, like, you know, what you're talking about, wondering if you got this audience or you have the show, you know, well, yeah, you're not being knocked down. You're not going to step away from not doing the show or anything. I thought about it. Of course you thought about it.

Yeah. I'll think about it. But you got to move forward either way. And that is your solution. Because Tom is going to keep going. But you got to keep going. Because worst case scenario, 10 months passes, and you haven't done the show for 10 months. 10 months passes and you look back and you go, wow, I actually had the audience.

It wasn't the show. That's the worst part. Then you're throwing away. But if we flip it and we say it was the show, well, I mean, you'll know that based on the ratings. You'll know it very soon. You have to keep moving forward, and that was kind of a mistake I made. I don't know other reasons why I took the time off, but either way, you have to figure out in your particular domain, how do you get perspective? It took you 10 months to watch the video, and you realize that you had to face your fears to move forward.

And you mentioned feeling better about yourself, and that's what gave you the courage to face your fears and watch the video. Is there anything you could have done differently or would have done differently that would have given you the courage to face your fears earlier? so that you could move forward faster? Other than the generic answer, man up? Not really. I mean, it just, there were a few times where I toyed with it and I went to go press that play button on YouTube. I couldn't do it.

And to answer the question is, you know, other than man up, right? Because I don't like that answer, but it was the first thing to come to mind. What could I have done? Well, I could have gotten to the gym soon. I think if I wasn't taking a year off, if I had just got back on the horse and started progressing and seeing, okay, you just made a mistake. Because then I'm naturally a learner. That's just who I am.

So if I had looked at it in the perspective of a thing to learn from as opposed to this insurmountable kind of fear mountain to get over, then yeah, I think I would have watched it sooner. And that's how you got to kind of phrase your problems, I think. How can we learn from them? Not things to run from. And that's how I treated it out, unfortunately. Yeah, I think if we're in this situation right now, maybe it's good if we bust out our journal or a paper and we go, okay, if I face this, the worst thing that can happen is I'm going to feel bad. It's going to send me into this sort of judgment spiral. but if I do do this, you can use that fear that you were talking about earlier, Ed, to motivate you.

It's like, look, I can put this off forever. You could just never watch that fight. And then you'll never be able to move past it. Your ego or whatever was crushed in that fight will always have those wounds. And you can map out where that takes you, which is avoiding this particular feeling. I mean, you must have known that you had to go through it. You weren't just one day like, oh, yeah, I guess I'll watch that fight. No, you were actively avoiding.

You were actively avoiding this, right? You knew you had to go through it. Not only was I actively avoiding it, right? It was an interesting psychological barrier. I mean, I could not say I got knocked out. I would say I got stopped or the fight didn't know. I couldn't say that. But now I can say it.

I'm like, yeah, man, I got knocked out, man. That sucks, right? I couldn't say that. And what that does, right? You know, it's a liberating feeling. And people think I'm just telling a funny story. nah man this is exactly how it happened i watched the fight one day i looked at it i watched myself get crushed i said man that sucks i really did get knocked out because i thought i slipped when i

during the fight i thought the first knockdown anyhow i thought i thought i thought and then i looked at myself getting up and i was like yo man you got to start shaving your head bro you were going thin on the top that's that was your first thought was i'm going bald yeah because i always you know that was another thing I didn't want to own. I'm losing hair. I'm going bald. I couldn't say that. It's weird, man.

We put these barriers in our mind and we don't want to approach and interact with these things. You know, in my mind, I'm just like, ah, you know, I'll just key out takes that. Because, man, I had the whole non when it comes to, like, prevent baldness. I had the six-month monoxide solution. I had the little propitia pills, man. I had the saw palmetto. All this, right? Anything to get me to keep me from a.

admitting, yo, man, I'm going bald, man. Let's do something about this. And I'm black, man. I can rock a ball head. Yeah, you all get a pass. Now, that's some privilege. There you go, right? That's right.

Yeah. No, look, you see a middle-aged white dude is going bald. It's the biggest crisis in his life. And you're like, oh, I guess I have to buy a mock three now or head blade. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, check the privilege, son. You know, so the side note, when that happened, right, I went on Twitter

Because of how I used Twitter I got on Twitter And I was like You know I finally watched my fight And I can admit That I got knocked out And I'm ready to get back in the gym

But I can also admit I'm losing hair And I'm going bald Don't you know head blade Hit me up and said So I hear you're losing hair Why don't we send you one of our products And then you know

Let's know what you think about it I was like oh great You know So I got I got something out of face of my fears You know That's right That's right

You could move forward with your life and you got a free head blade. It sounds like a pretty good deal to me. All you had to do is go through one of the darkest periods of your whole life for 10 months, but you got a free razor. It was goodness. And I had, I distracted myself in a lot of ways and a lot of good ways. You know, fortunately at this point, I don't drink, right? So that was never even an issue. So I poured myself into proving that I was a strong academic and that I was.

a good writer and I got to spend a lot of time just hanging out, you know, with my girlfriend and and just really having a good time in life. But I'll tell you this, when you're running from something, you might forget you're running, but your emotions don't. What do you mean by that? That's really interesting. What do you mean by that? I can mentally put myself in all of these different places, right? But if I have an emotional wound or are, you know, an emotional book that is unbalanced. Oh, it's going to show up when you least expect it. Like in dreams.

I'll be like, man, I wasn't even thinking about that. Well, it doesn't matter. It's still, you haven't dealt with it, though, and I didn't deal with it. And so I would, every now and in it, it would bug me. You know, or someone would make a comment on Twitter or Facebook, because, you know, the internet never let you forget anything, right? And it would bug me. And I was like, man, why does that?

it still bugs me. So I had to face it it because, you know, for any other reason, man, I don't want to be an emotional slave to someone just mentioning that I got knocked out. I mean, now when someone tries to throw, when a troll

tries to say something, I'm like, man, do you understand, you're anonymous? And I made almost six figures to lose on TV. Like, have you even been on TV? Like, I can, I can say these things and have a, have a, have a, have a, have a, have a fun time with it, but I did not have that kind of reaction to it before because it did

bother me because it was an emotional wound. And until I admitted that and then face it, I couldn't move past it. But not that I moved past it. You know, I can have fun practicing in the gym and everything. And it's just, it feels better. You know, sometimes you, but it's got a hill. You know, there's wounds. You got a hill.

And then you get back on the horse. And you mentioned perspective. I think we can gloss over this a little bit because perspective was you watch a news stories of people in Syria, school shootings, and really you got kind of a reality check on, you just lost a fight, you were embarrassed and broke, but you could go home and continue to do something with your life. And a lot of these people in the news did not have that luxury. I would ask, how do we go get perspective and get it in time to save our sanity if we're in a rut? Like, do you think that this is the sort of thing we have to develop all along perspective,

or is this a sort of medicine that we can use in the moment like you did? I think gratitude is a is a muscle. Because gratitude and perspective, to me, those are slight differences in the same cond of body. I guess gratitude would be more like an attitude you have about a thing while perspective is a way you see it. You have to start asking yourself and really start looking at all things in your life that bring you distress or misery. and you look at that and you go, okay, could this be worse? I mean, no one ever had people don't like asking themselves that question. Could it be worse?

Or sure, it could be worse. I could think of 10 ways if you're not, if we're having this conversation and it's not behind bars underneath the ground buried, I can think of 10 ways this could be worse easily. And even if we're in jail, I could probably think of five. But the point is you have to, you got to get an, a, you know, universal perspective, a universal way of seeing the world. We all work in our own frame of reference. So for us, when a thing gets bad, it's the worst thing in the world because what else would it be?

It's our world. The remedy to this, the way to develop perspective, the way to have gratitude, is to take in frames of other people, to taking frames of the world, add more to your experience, see more things. I mean, I used to think I grew up dirt poor, but it wasn't until I was in the Dominican Republic in Puerto Plata, and I was helping people, I was laying cement so people could have floors. And I'm like, whoa, they ain't even got floors. All of a sudden, my whole perspective on poverty changes, right? Right. Because now I have more in my frame of reference. So that is the thing we have to do. Two parts. You got to go experience and interact with the world and see different things, read about different people, talk to different people. You know,

one of the things that I always kept perspective on, I happened to work in a homeless shelter for a few months. Yeah, you realize, okay, it could be worse, right? And then once you had that knowledge, you have to call on it, right? Let's see, crash your car. And now you're like, oh, man, I crashed my car. It's super miserable by it, as you would be. But are you going to, that ruin the rest of your day?

Well, you will if you don't remember that, yo, you had a car to crash. crash. You know, hopefully you had some insurance. I mean, you have a job, too, so you can get another car. I mean, already, this is just me, like, looking at the ways to keep perspective. Right. And in talking to you, that helps me clarify out there. You know, perspective is what allows you to keep your mood from getting worse. And gratitude is what allows you to increase the feelings of goodwill that you have about a situation. You know, I found that as I look around and appreciate the things I have, I tend to appreciate them more. That sounds obvious, but maybe it's not so, you know, that's how people end up selfish and materialistic is that they don't look and they go, wow, man, I already have that.

I'm really fortunate to have it. So I'm taking a perspective that I cannot have it. And then I'm appreciating it. I'm being grateful for it. So I'm increasing the good feelings. I'm moving away from the bad and moving towards the good in terms of how I emotionally connect with an event or an object or a person, you know, those. So if we find ourselves in this type of situation and we have to get perspective, we have to do it at a conscious level.

So maybe, and now again, as people can start to tell, like I'm a fan of journaling and writing things down. If you really have to force yourself into that perspective, it might be good for you. Your action step would be to write down five or ten things that happened today, even if it's a terrible day, like you crashed your car, but I wasn't really injured. And I was, nobody got hurt.

Like those kinds of things you can really look on the right side of this. That is so awesome. And that is not easy. That is a practice. That is a practice skill. Especially do it in the moment, you know, to go, oh, goodness, I'm so happy that, you know, this wasn't here or that wasn't there or it could be worse, you know. So your action step would be that when things. happen like this, you really have to develop the reflex of, oh, my God, this is terrible.

But what are two or three things that came out of this that are positive, even if these positives really are sort of a shade lighter than the negative that you're dealing with? Because if you build that reflex, it changes the direction of your thinking, right? Instead of just thinking about how terrible it is, you literally have to rack your brain to find out two or three reasons why there's positives out of this, which your brain really won't be able to think of both of these things at the same time. So instead of catastrophizing, you start to think about the positives. I love the way you say that. I tell that the people all the time, that when you are focused on the gratitude, when you are trying to be grateful, it is very difficult to focus on the negative.

And in fact, very difficult. I think it's impossible. It may be. You put your mind on what you are grateful about in this situation and it will keep you from focusing on what you are sad about because you know both of those things those are just facts right if what happened and more importantly what didn't happen and what do you focus on do you focus on the fact that you just lost a 9500 car or do you are you grateful that you know you're not going home in a paddy wagon so you mentioned people as well and that you had a great support around you in this dire time that you were in need and even on social media you were afraid people would eviscerate you but you got a lot of support from your family your friends your fans if you went through these dark period or a dark

period again what would you change with respect to the people around you would you change the type of people that you surrounded yourself with to recover faster or do you think you had the right mix. I'm a bit of a small bit of a loner by nature. And I think one of the worst things I did is I didn't get out and get out with my friends enough. And I don't think I spent enough time around them. It's just like every day I go every day I'm grateful to be here and that helps, but I didn't I didn't get out there with my friends. You know, I spent a lot of time interacting with people on social media and with my girlfriend. But I did not spend a enough time with the support system that has supported me from the door, from the ground of

gods that I love so much that when I won my 10th fight, I took my purse, I didn't spend a bit of it on me. I just bought everything. I bought them a bunch of Christmas gifts because I won December 10th. I was like, I love you guys, man. You've been here for me from the beginning when no one believed in me. So I should have spent more time around them. I should have leaned on the people around me more, period. And one of the things about coming up and and being the kind of person I was, which is a person who learned to retreat kind of N-word at the stress to video games, to books, to keep himself away from the stressors of the world, that is a habit I carry even into adulthood.

I mean, now I know it's not healthy, but it's a thing I have to force, right? It's not a natural tendency for me to just go, okay, I'm having a tough time. Let me talk to one of my homeboys, right? No, that's not good. That's not natural for me. But I know I need to do it so I force myself to, right? And then eventually I'm not, then I forget that I was having trouble with it because they cheer me up or they drop some wisdom. If you have good girlfriends, your God's not going to think, you know, your Godfriends aren't going to think you're weak for reaching out to them when you're having trouble.

They'll be happy, you know. What should people do now then to ensure that they have this type of people around them? They have this type of support when they need it. Oh man, you know, the people around you, man, it's like condoms or guns or whatever. I mean, you'd rather have it and not need it that need it and not have it. You have to nurture your friend. They're not just there for you when you have a problem. They're there for you because, you know, you guys have spent so much time together and invested so much time.

It's like the gumball theory, right? that every little good moment you have with your friends puts a gumball in the gun machine, right? And when you need to lean on them to support you, it takes a gumball out. But that's not even really true because part of their friendship is, you know, people feel good when you go to them for support. Now, if you are like obsessive with it or you don't listen or you get yourself in a really bad trouble, that's kind of a different issue. but if you have a you have a big deal and you don't tell you a friend i mean i think in many ways that can hurt people so i think i think of you if you're not nurturing the groups if you're not developing their friendships in the time when you don't need them we all know that god it disappears

the minute he gets a girlfriend and then right no you don't want to you don't want to be that guy and i was almost in danger being that guy but but they understood because the other issue was i was dealing with readjusting the life without alcohol, right? And they were still drinking. But now it's easy. You know, I see my friends a lot more. So these are things I learned. I mean, I really, I really am grateful for that.

And even until we started talking, I hadn't realized how much more I try to make an effort to see my friends and people I care about because that keeps you from having to, at the very least, that keeps you from focusing on bad stuff, man. Like, if you're going on a bad time and you're by yourself, you're in the worst company possible. You need to get around somebody that's going to make you laugh. And the noses are sense of humor, too. Like, and you guys just got memories. I mean, sometimes I'm all about deep, insightful conversations and meaning and discussing ideas.

But sometimes you just want to reminisce about some nonsense that happened when you guys were 16, right? And you don't, there aren't many people that you can do that with. So if you have those people, you have to. take care of those relationships and nurture them because they're going to be there for you if you're there for them. And that's what this show is largely about is the creation and maintenance of those types of connections and relationships. And I'll tell you, man, I'm glad that you and I became friends because you're an interesting

cat and I really appreciate your time here talking to the audience here, the family, because there's a lot of lessons in what you've been through. And you're a good guy to know when it comes to getting through a hard time, which is what we're dealing with as a team right now. Thank you, man. I'm really happy, as I always say, man, I'm always happy when someone decides that what I have to say is worth listening to. Because, I mean, I think it's great.

I talk to myself all the time. I think I'm the most interesting person. Most people are ever going to meet, right? But I know that that's not always the case for most people. So I'm always grateful. Well, thank you very much. There was a lot here, man. And this guy grew up in legitimately in the hood and has made it out.

And it's just really made some huge changes. And it's frankly an impressive guy at this point. I mean, he's just done a ton and never really looked back. What's interesting is when he talked about the Hill District in Pittsburgh, I'd never put two and two together. But I don't, I mean, this might be before your time, Jordan. But back in the 80s, there was an amazing TV show called Hill Street Blues. And that was about the Hill District in Pittsburgh. They put an entire cop show around how terrible that area in Pittsburgh was.

And it blew my mind when I dawned on me. Oh, that's where he grew up. Oh, my God, that is terrible. Because if you ever watch that show, which is a fantastic show, it really kind of drives home. How crappy it was where he was. Well, my mom used to love that show. And there's a guy who was in that show. He's basically looked the same since 1984.

And he's that cop with a mustache. And that's like, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah, it's like his only role. Yeah, his name is Dennis Franz and he's basically in NYPD Blue and he's a detective in everything, always. Yeah. And, you know, you can say one trick pony, but I'll tell you, if you're going to be a salty streetwise cop, that's a good trick to have as an actor, I guess. So, yeah, I always thought Hill Street was, Hill Street Blues, since I was so little. I just figured when I moved to L.A.

It took place in L.A. Because that's where the cop shop is in L.A., right? On Hill Street? No, I think you're thinking of a rampart in L.A., but, I mean, when were you born? 80. Okay. No, there's no way you could have watched this because this show was on from like 83 to 87. Yeah, I mean.

There's no way you can remember that show. I didn't watch it. My mom did, and I remember thinking, when are cartoons going to come on for crying out of life? Where's my Scooby-Doo? Good Lord. Yeah, man. Kids these days, they have it so easy. great big thank you to Ed Latimore.

We're going to be linking up to his stuff, of course. And he's big on Twitter. He tweets gold. There's a tweet that will live on in infamy. It basically talks about how crackheads will hustle for four days with no sleep to get a rock. Do not get out worked by a crackhead. That's pretty good. That's some viral stuff right there.

So thank him on Twitter. We'll have that linked up, of course. And I'm also on Twitter at Jordan Harbinger. And tweet at me your number one takeaway here from Ed Latimore. That'll all be linked up in the show notes, which can also be found at Jordan Harbinger.com slash podcast. This episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show was produced and edited by Jason DePhilippo. Jason Sanderson with us in spirit. As always, show notes are by Robert Fogarty, booking, back office, and last minute miracles,

and also my lunch right now by Jen Harbinger. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Please do share the crap out of this show because we are rebuilding from the ground up, iTunes reviews, shoving this in your first. friend's face or in their ears better, probably, more of a strategy, would be greatly appreciated sharing the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got lots more like this in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you.

And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way.

Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life.

Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts.

Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.