The Jordan Harbinger Show - 913: Trust Betrayed by Wife Who Strayed (2,300 Times) | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

2,300 messages discovered on your wife's old phone reveal her prolific infidelity that spanned years of your 24-year marriage. Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: 2,300 messages discovered on your wife's old phone reveal a pattern of prolific infidelity that spanned approximately 16 percent of your 24-year marriage. Does she deserve the second chance she's begging for? As the least successful of two sisters, you know your mother already worries chronically about you. And since your brother-in-law died by suicide last year, you're hesitant to share that you also suffer from depression — but you don't want to keep her in the dark, either. What's the right way to handle this dilemma? Described as "irreplaceable" by your employers, your workload equals or surpasses that of longer-tenured coworkers who make twice as much as you. How can you renegotiate your salary without coming off as entitled and greedy? [Thanks to The Connector’s Advantage author Michelle Tillis Lederman for her help with this one!] Your dad lives remotely with a partner who's generally abusive toward him, with health problems that make it difficult for her to be left alone for long periods of time. This means she either comes with him when he visits (complaining the whole time and making everyone miserable), or she stays home and texts or calls incessantly to berate him the whole time. How can you help him work up the nerve to end this obviously unhappy relationship? How do you get over the anger and confusion brought on by the ex who ghosted you with zero explanation after a year-long relationship — especially when his thirst-trap photos keep showing up in your dating app? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/913 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the life preserver, helping us survive these choppy waters of existential drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker during the week. We have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from neuroscientists and war correspondence to hostage negotiators and cold case homicide investigators. This week we had my friend at stare perl. If you're not up on

Astaire Perrell, she is an absolutely brilliant relationship therapist. We talk about conflict and cheating among other topics in relationships. Even if you're not in a relationship, I think this will fascinate you. And if you are, man, are you going to look at your relationship in a new way or the relationships of people you know? I just feel like a little bit of her rubs off on me every time I talk to her and we go way, way back. And I'm sorry. so excited that she came on this week. We also had my other new buddy, former MI6 operative Matthew Dunn. You might have heard of him because he writes Tom Clancy-esque espionage novels that I think are especially popular over in the UK. We talk about Iranian hit squads in the UK and London and

New York and the United States and elsewhere across the globe where essentially regime hitmen and intelligence agents are harassing citizens of other countries normally of Iranian descent. It's really a fascinating inside look into something I didn't know existed. You know those episodes are always some of my favorites. This is going to be one of those where you go. I can't believe this is happening in my country. And I thought this episode was very eye-opening, especially in light of the whole,

Gabriel, do you hear about that Sikh activist that got killed in Canada by India allegedly? I did. That is so wild. So weird. I mean, I don't have enough information to say this definitively, but I did read that he was kind of,

you know, like potentially a violent terrorist. You know, you never know. Is that rhetoric just mean he's distasteful to the regime or does it mean he's blown people up? I don't know. Right. What does that term mean? Depends country to country and situation to situation. But India considers him a terrorist. Sure, but also we have diplomatic ways. Like, hey, you should arrest this guy. Here's the crimes he's committed. Not like, hey, we murdered somebody who was living in your city and buy. That's not how we roll here in the civilized world. Anyway, on Fridays, we share stories. We offer advice. We play increasingly dumb soundbites. And we do our best to Rose Gabe for his diction and or occasional tendency to succumb to the delightful cliche that he is. My favorite love language, truly. By the way, Gabe, random story.

Did I ever tell you that I woke up during a medical procedure recently? Uh, no. What? I did. I woke up during a colonoscopy. Oh, shit. And I know, it's like, everyone's like, whoa, was eating. Didn't need that right now.

But so Katie Kurek, who listened to this show, her husband passed away at like age 40 or something or 42 from colon cancer. And she's like, get screened early. My husband died. and it wasn't even your age. And I was like, okay, so I went and got screened because Jen was like, I'm getting you screened. And, you know, you do the prep. That's a lot of fun, but they gas you out

or they medicate you, I forget which now, maybe a little both. And I just remember being like, my stomach really hurts. I was asleep, you know, and I'm like, my stomach hurts. It felt like somebody was picking apples off of a tree when the tree is your stomach lining. Oh, man. And I was like, ow, like you could just feel it yank and pull. Oh, no.

I know this is making me feel sick just talking about it. Sorry, folks. And I woke up and I was like, that hurts. And then the doctor goes, you can feel that? And I go, yeah, it really hurts. And he's like, you know, he said something to the nurse that was along the lines of maybe not, you know? And I was like, it feels like you're pulling and cutting. And then he's like, oh, gosh.

And then he told the nurse something and I zonked out. She probably turned up a notch on the medication. Oh, wow. So you really woke up in the middle of this procedure. Woke up. Oh, man. And then at the end, I was like, wow, that was weird.

I woke up, honey, goes, oh, you remember that? And I was like, yeah, I remember. It really hurt. And he was like, yeah, well, the good news is what's all done and you don't have to do it for five years. And I was like, how often do people wake up during the procedure is like not very often? Like, you could tell he was kind of nervous and hoping that I forgot about it. Because I don't know, maybe it's more serious than I thought to wake up during that thing.

But whatever, I mean. Isn't that kind of like, it's so nightmarish to think about waking up during a surgery. It's something I imagine only happens in like Victorian England when they were still like getting the gas recipe right or whatever. And they like... Or the whiskey recipe. Like get him some all whiskey. He's awake.

Just put him out. Yeah. I don't know how often this happens. But I will tell you it could have been worse. It was a dull pain. But I can't imagine doing that without any anesthesia. I don't know why I told this story. Anyway, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About a month ago, my phone broke, so I found an old iPhone in a drawer. I powered it on and realized that it was my wife's old phone from four years ago. Oh, man, here we go. Oh, shit. Yeah. Whenever there's a phone and a feedback Friday letter, you know it's going to be bad. Oh, yeah. It's never, I found this old phone and guess what? It still had snake on it. What a great game. Oh, man. It's always, I found this old phone

and the things on it have ruined my life. It's like a gun in a movie, right? Like you see the gun, it's got to go off. Someone's using the gun. Yeah, you hear about a phone and a feedback Friday letter. Someone's relationship is about to blow up. Them's the rules. So the letter goes on.

When I looked at her old messages, I saw 2,300 messages between her and a guy named Brian. Wow. And discovered that they had a mad, passionate love affair behind my back for five months that involved alcohol, naughty lingerie, unprotected sex, and porn how-to videos. Hold up. There it is, though, man.

That is brutal. How-to videos? I mean, yeah, I'm intrigued. Was that Nate Dog? That was Nate Dog, yeah. Oh, that is a classic. Yeah, it is. Very appropriate.

Hold up indeed. But 2300 messages, yeah, great minds to go out. That is a lot of messages. Who has that kind of time? I don't understand. That's not where my mind goes, but yeah, you're right. Who has the time? I also found that my wife had set up profiles on multiple hookup sites,

like adult friend finder. and used private communication apps like KIC to lure in multiple men to have sex in hotel rooms. Once, for example, she left a dinner we were having with my boss to help a friend in trouble when she was actually hooking up with a guy in a hotel. I was in absolute shock. My wife and I have been married for 24 years, so 20 back when this happened, and have no children. She's always been very conservative, a turtleneck wearing Barbara Dole type. Wow, what an image.

What a strange turn. Okay. Yeah. I was the one who always had a higher libido and tried over the years to spice up our sex life, which was mediocre, but not terrible. My wife often complained that I didn't show affection and that our marriage had evolved to us being like roommates. Admittedly, the romance had waned, so I begged my wife to see a doctor,

and it turned out that her hormones were low. She got a hormone pellet, and then a few months later another one, and said that it skyrocketed her libido out of control and turned out of the doctor. turned her into an out-of-control person who wanted to seek out the most lurid encounters. Interesting. Okay, so she's saying that this hormone replacement therapy turned her into a sex-crazed maniac, which, I mean, maybe was she this person all along underneath the turtlenecks and just didn't tell them and the hormones are a convenient excuse? Hard to say. Also, if you're a sex-crazed maniac, don't you also bang your husband and maybe also other guys and just not ignore your husband and

bang a bunch of other guys? I have so many questions. Go on. Curious. Then she may met that guy, Brian, who took an interest in her outside the hotel room. That eventually evolved into a friendship with just two relapses over the next two years. The tone of the thousands of emails between them suggests that she was the main initiator. I get thousands of emails. Again, I ask, how does anyone have time for this? Yeah, you make time for what you make time for, Gabe, I guess. I don't know, hobbies. Clearly, I guess so. No excuses. Okay. Then three years ago, she introduced me to Brian as an old coworker and brazenly made him part of our lives. I grilled steaks for this man, and he helped me fix my car.

Oh, man. So she brought her sidepiece over and introduced him to our friend here. Like, this is my buddy Brian. He used to work in accounting. That's just absolutely brutal. They actually became friends or friend Lee. That's got to feel so gross. Yeah, it's insults on top of injury, I'd imagine, because this guy's like, yeah,

begging this guy's wife and he doesn't even know, huh, meeting his steak, what a little, you know. Now she's lying to him. him in a new way and rubbing it in his face by doing this. And it almost seems like is this part of their weird kinky thing? Like I'm cheating on my husband and he's right here and now. It's like part of the whole thing. When I finally checked her current phone, she had 2,600 text messages with him under an alias, texting 8 to 15 times every day. Nothing sexual, but I love that he's done like the analytics on this affair. The business intelligence on this infidelity is excellent. Yeah.

Nothing sexual in those messages, but a significant relationship that included their families and public meetings. At this point, I believe she's been faithful for the last two years. But since this bombshell, my emotions move between vindictiveness, anger, pity, and sadness. I still love her, and we have good memories together, but I can't stop thinking about her two worlds. Yesterday she called Brian in front of me and told him that everything was a big mistake and that she never wanted him to contact her and blocked his number. She's begging me not to leave

and says that she loves me so much and that she would do anything to make things right. I know you love to suggest counseling, but frankly, if I told the therapist the whole story and they didn't tell me to run for the hills, I would question their abilities. Are I just throwing good effort after a lost cause? Is there a way forward for us?

signed double down after being made a clown, move through because there's work to do, or cut bait because it's just too late. Oh, man, we've heard some wild cheating stories here on the show, but this one is up there. Takes the cake. The sheer volume, right, in the scale of the operation, your wife is prolific. Yeah, very much the Stephen King of adultery, I would say. Oh, God. Seriously, she's living out her very own 50 shades of gross.

The details are intense, and I'm sure this isn't even a tenth of it, right? It cut for time kind of thing. So, Gabe, I don't even know where to begin here, man. I mean, his wife cheated on him in a very aggressive way. This wasn't a six-week fling with some guy and then it was over or even a long affair with one person. This is multiple men in a deceitful and compulsive string of encounters, including at least one very serious relationship with another guy over a two, two-and-a-half-year period,

if I'm doing the math correctly here. This is extraordinary by any measure. It's disturbing. It's shocking. It's obviously a serious betrayal. Also, it's dangerous. Any one of those guys could have done something harmful to her or to him or given her a disease that he later gets. Who knows what could have happened?

I mean, it's absolutely terrible judgment in every sense. So his feelings make total sense. He's angry. He's sad. He feels bad for himself. He wants to forgive her, but he also hates her and he wants to get back at her. frankly, I don't even know how you come back from something like this. I don't think I could do it.

I don't even think I would bother if I didn't have kids, especially, just why? Same here, I get it. And yet I do understand his bind because here she is saying, I'm sorry, this was a huge mistake. There's something wrong. Please don't leave. And she ended things with Brian in front of him. Seemingly, that's genuine.

Although, who knows, maybe there was something sort of performative about that. Who knows? She does seem to want to work on their marriage. That's what she's saying. And he's sitting there like, well, I still love you. We have good memories together. so do we give this another shot? I mean, it's a weird place to be.

But he's also saying, I can't stop thinking about her two worlds. I mean, I don't see how he's supposed to bleach his brain after what he's seen and read. It's not like he found out through a friend like, hey, I think your wife's been cheating on you. Yeah, oh my God, I have, but I ended things. Like, he has every detail of the stuff

he wasn't supposed to know. And he has no guarantee she won't do this again. Well, that's the thing, is that the history of deceit is so disturbing that it's really hard to know if she's telling the truth. she could secretly still be doing this. No, and he might not know.

I mean, he seems to be really good at looking at her phone and her email, but, you know, she could have another account. We just don't know. She has a real pattern. But there is this hormone excuse, which is very interesting. But honestly, Jordan, I don't know if I buy into that. I'm calling BS. Yeah.

Yeah, because even if her libido were out of control, she could still talk to him about that, right? As you pointed out, she would want to have sex with him too. Or she could just go to her doctor and say, hey, I think there's something wrong. I feel like I'm going crazy. Right. She's acting like she was completely at the whim of biology.

An excuse we would never accept from, I don't know, a 13-year-old boy who's completely at the whim of biology for most of his young adult life and doesn't have any life experience or no any better. Maybe I don't know what it's like to have way too much estrogen or whatever, but I still have to believe your character is intact. Your moral compass still exists in there somewhere. Maybe you have a moment of roid rage or something if you've got too much testosterone. But when a responsible person's hormones go out of control,

They tell their doctor, they tell their partner. They don't just indulge all their most base instincts for literally years on end. You don't just accept that this is the new you and part of your permanent personality. If I do a bunch of steroids and I'm like, man, I'm really angry all the time, I don't just walk around punching people and be like, you have to accept this part of me. Sorry, it's just who I am. I mean, you end up in prison for that. There's a reason.

Come on. Let's also remember that when our friend here checked her phone, she had thousands of messages with Brian under an alias, right? And those messages, he said, were nothing sexual, but they were a significant relationship. And they were talking about their families, they were public meetings. So she can't blame that on her strangely high libido, right? Right. That's a good point.

I don't think the side effects of hormone pellets include a heightened predilection towards emotional intimacy and family barbecues in the park. That's nonsense. Side effects may include sending your colleague thousands of text messages about your children and meeting up in the park to talk about your feelings. I don't think so. Lined your spouse of two decades. The more we talk about this, the more that's the more.

the hormone replacement excuse, it just falls apart at the seams immediately. But, hey, if there are any fertility doctors listening right now who have insight into this, I'd be curious to hear from you, whether these treatments can truly make you lose your mind, whether we're actually driven by hormones a lot more than we think. I just don't buy that you have no agency at that point over a two-year period. It's not one in discretion. Also, like you said, Jordan, there's a compulsive quality to these affairs that sounds like an addiction of some kind. And again, who knows, we're that developed because it seems to come out of the blue. But then there's also the lying, the deceit. There seems to be so much more than just chemicals and hormones alone. Right. So my take is,

if you guys have any hope of working on your marriage after this, it'll be in couples therapy. Ideally, individual therapy too, man. You guys have a lot to unpack and heal from. Holy cow, the affairs and encounters, obviously, but also your personal histories, a little libido element, the fact that the romance had waned before all this stuff, how you guys have responded to all this I don't think you're going to be able to do it all alone. I do think you need a professional here, and you should have one to just sanity check everything that you're thinking and doing. I'm very interested in this thing he said.

Frankly, if I told the therapist the whole story and they didn't tell me to run for the hills, I would question their abilities. Yeah, that stuck out to me immediately, because he's basically saying, I already know the answer is get as far away from this person as I can, but I haven't accepted that yet or some version of that. There's a big part of him that wants to stay and work on this,

and he's afraid that going to therapy will mean officially closing the door on that possibility. But I wonder if he's also a little embarrassed to bring this to a therapist because he feels like they're going to make him feel dumb or, you know, wrong, whatever, for even considering whether he should stay. But I don't think that there's any therapist, any therapist worth their salt anyway, who would straight up tell him to run for the hills in their very first session if he came in wanting to talk, just talk about what he's been through. Unless he goes to some Lydia who just tells him what to do from the jump, and honestly, In this case, I'm aside with Lydia.

I don't know how you save a marriage after this. In fact, I'm going to be Elitia here and say, I know we're hitting the sound bites hard. I think this relationship is toast. I do. I wouldn't try to fix this. Things are too far gone. Gabe, again, if this is me, no kids, I'm out. Why try to fix it?

Take a sabbatical from work. Go to Columbia for a few months. Decompress. Think about all this. Know what I'm saying? At least get some distance. I hear you, Jordan. But that is his choice.

Their choice. If they really do want to work on things, if they're still love there, if they're willing to do a ton of work, and it is significant work that we're talking about, then there might, might be a way through this. But my point is, this response that he's anticipating from a therapist, I don't think he's going to get that response, at least not in such an obvious way. It's more likely that a therapist is going to say, I hear that there's a party that feels like you should run for the hills, and I hear that there's a party that wants to stay and work on this. So let's talk about that. And then he can begin

exploring all of these angles, and there's a lot for him to explore. Maybe that leads him to working on this with his wife. Maybe that leads him to getting a divorce and moving on. But the process that he would go through with a therapist would still be hugely helpful, just putting aside the question of whether he should ultimately stay. So I don't want him to avoid a helpful experience because he's already anticipating that a therapist is going to shame him or judge him right off the bat for not arriving at that conclusion immediately. Fair enough. I just, I don't have high hopes for this marriage, but I definitely share your opinion that there's valuable work for him to do in therapy regardless. And obviously the same goes for his wife. I mean, she's the one who really needs therapy.

My God. Sure. And possibly a recovery program of some kind because it's whatever, but she's not the one writing in. So to answer your question, are you just throwing good effort after a lost cause? I think it depends what the cause is. If the cause is to save your marriage at all costs, I think you can tell where we stand on that. I'm with Jordan. I probably wouldn't be able to come back from this personally. But yeah, that doesn't mean that you guys can't if you're both on the same page. But if the cause is to figure out how you got here, to understand yourselves better, to get more insight into how you and your wife operated in your marriage and how you relate to each other. And the question of whether to stay together is just one product of that work, then this might not

be throwing good money and time after bad. But whatever you do, I would make sure you're doing it because you want to do it, because it's in service of, you know, your growth and your understanding, not because you feel guilty or ashamed or somehow beholden to your wife. Yeah, I agree. I think if you're sticking around to spare her or because you're too afraid to say, this is not okay, I'm out, I need to be on my own, then I would seriously reconsider. But I do know that throwing yourself into therapy will always pay dividends. Having that space to work out these complicated feelings, I think that's really important for you right now. Again, so sorry this has happened to you.

It's shocking, it's sad, it is beyond painful, and you're going through something truly extraordinary. So please take care of yourself, stay connected to what you're feeling right now, and just try to learn as much as possible while you navigate all this, sending you a big hug, wishing you all the best, man. You know what'll get you hotter than a hormone pellet, Gabriel?

The steamy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Blinds and Skoll. Thank you for listening to and supporting this show. It is your support of our advertisers and sponsors that keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

You can use the AI chatbot to surface those promo codes as well. Consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 49-year-old single lady. I've had depression and anxiety my whole life, but lately it's been worse due to common midlife ink.

questioning my choices, evaluating my success and failures, stuff like that. When I visit my mom, my depression and anxiety become dramatically worse. She doesn't do anything on purpose to make it worse, but being at home is a major reminder of all the ways that I've disappointed her. My sister is wealthy and thin, has two children, and is engaged to be married for the second time. I, on the other hand, am broke, fat, single, and have few people. prospects. I vape and smoke marijuana, and I know my mom is super stressed about those habits. I always keep my visits home short because I've learned that spending more than three days

visiting her leads to a major downward spiral that can take me weeks to come out of. The problem is that my mom thinks she's doing something to make me want to dip almost as soon as I arrive. I haven't told her about my mental illness, and I don't think she has any idea. I want to tell her, but my sister's first husband committed suicide. a year and a half ago. And I know if I tell her I have depression, she's going to worry herself sick that I'll try to hurt myself.

I would never, ever put my family through that. But my mom is super anxious and a chronic worrier. I know that if I tell her what's going on, she'll tell everyone she knows about my problem. She'll stop sleeping, and she'll tell me all the time how worried she is about me. But if I don't tell her, she'll keep thinking she's doing something wrong,

and I don't want her to feel like that either. What do I do? signed, Wrestling with the Mubble Fubbles as I stumble into trouble in this family bubble. Wow, I did not think you'd bring back Mubble Fubbles.

I remember vaguely, you're welcome. You're welcome. Remind me that means is that old-timey English for depression? Depression, yeah, the blues, dread,

melancholia, etc. Nothing like a reference from 400 years ago to keep things fresh around here, old Gaby Shakespeare's over here. It's just a great word. I want to bring it back. I love Mubble Fubbles.

The old Mubby Phubbs. Oh, it's so nerdy. So nerdy. But yeah, this is a real tough case of the Mubby Fubs, indeed. So this is an interesting story. You know, even for the happiest people going home can be hard. All that childhood stuff comes up. You're face to face with the people who shaped you for better or worse. It is intense. It's reminding me of that spiritual teacher, what was his name? Ram Dass, I think. And Ram Dass said something like, if you think you're so enlightened, go spend a weekend with your parents. Uh, yeah. I know nothing about Ram Dass. I actually can't believe I'm quoting a guy.

named Ram Dass on the show. I was about to say, you're quoting Ram Dass? Okay, new era. You know me. I'm back from my 30-day meditation for sure. I'm never doing that. But he was dead on about that. He was.

So I really do understand the dilemma you're in here. You want to open up to your mom, but if you do, she's going to spin out. She's going to tell everybody what you're going through because she can't stop herself. She's going to worry yourself to death. It's a tough position to be in. But I'm also very intrigued and impressed by your level of self-awareness.

They do say depressed people are more self-aware and have a firmer grasp on reality. It's a whole evolved thing. You can see that the depression and anxiety are worse right now because you're looking more clearly at your successes, your failures, you're on your own right now,

you're struggling financially. That makes sense. Those are hard themes to be dealing with, and I can definitely appreciate how that pain can be magnified by a sibling who's doing a lot better than you these days, at least on the surface. Although she did go through a major tragedy recently,

so it's an interesting question whether this comparison is totally accurate, but you also know that you're not taking care of yourself as well as you should. You're vaping. That's obviously bad for you. You're smoking weed. Smoking anything's not great, and weed can, I don't have to get into it.

You're overweight by your own admission. You don't need us to tell you that this lifestyle and these habits, they don't make the depression and anxiety better. In the long term, they only make it worse. Your mom is stressed out about all that, and I got to say, I can understand why. if my daughter came home depressed and anxious and I saw her vaping tobacco and smoking weed

and not taking good care of herself, I would also be worried. So I think what's happening, and you're already onto this, is that you're going home, some difficult truths are getting mirrored back to you, and that's really hard to bear. The downward spiral you go into

if you spend more than a few days there, I really get why that's so painful, but my sense is that a spiral is the product of a process that you go through when these aspects of you become more visible when you experience your family's concern. It feels like it's your mom's doing, and to some extent it is, don't get me wrong, but it's probably more accurate to say that the spiral is what happens when you see yourself through your mom. Somewhat accurately from the sound of it, and her feelings confirm something

difficult, which is that there are some important things you need to address in your life right now. And what you do with those feelings, how you process them, or maybe don't process them, how you internalize them, what else they bring up. That is what produces the spiral. And yes, the spiral might be the result of the anxiety and the depression, but it also might be a cause of them too. And that's keeping you stuck in this difficult loop where spending time with your mom is very painful,

but you're both creating this experience, and you just can't tell her why. And look, I hope you don't mind that I'm being so direct with you, but I'm hearing your letter, and half of me wants to give you a huge hug, which you deserve, and half of me wants to say, hey, your mom might be right on some of this stuff. You're not fully showing up for yourself the way that you should.

Gabe, am I being too tough on her? What is your read here? No, I agree with you completely. But I think there is a little bit more to her story, which is mom and how mom responds to her daughter, right? This anxious response that her mom has to her struggling, I think that's also a big driver of the depression and the anxiety, especially the depression.

Because, look, if she tries to open up to her mom about how she's feeling these days, look what her mom does. She worries herself sick. She stops sleeping. She tells her daughter and apparently all of her friends how worried she is about her. And she thinks she's doing something to drive her daughter away. Some of that is fair, I guess. I mean, look, that Ram Dass quote, you mentioned a moment ago, probably works in the other direction too. If you know, you think you're so enlightened, go spend a weekend with your kids, right? Family dynamics, right? It's crazy. But these responses from her mother, they're kind of making it all about her, right? Like her work. her burden, her unloading to her friends, her sleeplessness. It doesn't sound like her mom has the

capacity to say, look, when you tell me you're depressed, when I see that you're anxious, I really worry about you, and that's hard for me. But like, what is this like for you? You know, what's going on? Do you want to talk? What can I do as your mom to help? Right, right. It's not. Can I do anything to make you feel comfortable staying longer? It's straight to, oh, I'm freaking out now. Right. She's having a very strong response to her daughter's response, and that becomes its own anxiety and she kind of takes this experience from our friend here and makes it entirely about her. While also, by the way, creating a new problem for her to have to deal with, which is, oh my God, my mom is so worried now I need to make sure she isn't or help her. So all our friend is left with

is, A, the evidence that there is something wrong with her, and B, the fact that her mom isn't willing or able to help her. And that only compounds the sense of, oh, she can't handle this, she can't be there for me. I really am alone. all of this. And if her mom is like that now, then she was almost certainly like that when she was growing up, which means her mom might never have been there for her in the way that she really needed. So, look, we're obviously only getting one side of the story, but the sense I get is that she isn't really equipped to empathize with her daughter and to bear her daughter's feelings. All she seems to be able to do, to your point, Jordan, is kind of internalize them and experience them as her own anxiety,

which is kind of sad. It's sad for both of them. But it's also a close. It's a close. It's also a classic recipe for depression, a lot of these feelings might have to go underground. She might feel the need to shut them down on her own and possibly with the help of the weed, because the message that she's gotten is your feelings are too much, they're too difficult, and really they come at my expense. Wow, yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that's also a classic recipe for shame too, right? The shame piece makes working on all of this just so much harder. For sure. So, yes, I share your view that her mom and maybe her sister to a lesser extent, they are reflecting back to her some important facts and part of her work is to bear her own discomfort in confronting those facts.

But at the same time, visiting her mom, I think, is kind of going back to the scene of the crime, right? Where her feelings about herself are magnified and reflected back to her. She struggles to work through some of those feelings. They get transmuted into depression and anxiety, but also she's around the one person who should be there for her, but isn't, and maybe should have been there for her but never was. And that is objectively painful in a way that she might not ever be able to fully control. So her job, in my view, is to make space for both of these realities. One reality is she needs to take responsibility for some of these difficult feelings

and probably take a lot better care of herself. The other reality is her mom might inadvertently be contributing to some of her pain. Yeah, that's fair. That one-two punch is kind of the perfect cocktail for feeling stuck, but that feeling of being stuck, that's actually the crux of the story to me. Either she needs to make more peace with her situation or she needs to start working on some of this stuff.

Ideally, of course, in therapy, I know everyone's going to make fun of me. Every question is go to therapy. But from where I'm sitting, there are a few things that she can start doing right now to help herself. To me, the tobacco and the weed are at the top of the list. I'm not judging. Look, that stuff's fine,

but it's just, it's making things worse. So get rid of that, at least for now. There's a layer of this that is physiological. And when you're depressed, when you're anxious, weed just isn't your friend, even if it feels that way temporarily. In fact, feeling stuck is one of the unfortunate side effects of cannabis. And we see this all the time in our inbox.

I've experienced it myself. Then treating herself better, eating well, getting some exercise, sleeping regularly. I mean, we don't know her lifestyle, but these habits tend to create a certain lifestyle and mindset. these are these lead dominoes, right? The sleep goes, and then you're doing more of this and less of that.

Mental health issues are obviously very complex. I'm not chalking all this up to like, just put down the jewel and go for a walk. But if you want to make progress on the deeper stuff, you have to give yourself every possible advantage. And that's the end of the Life Coach Jordan portion of this answer. But just I had to go on the record here because it's kind of table stakes for this work,

and it's low-hanging fruit, right? These habits are tough to break, but it's going to be night and day when you quit smoking and vaping. It really is. Everybody says so. I've experienced a lot of this stuff myself. So thank you for sharing all this with us. I know it's tough to talk about.

I really do admire your vulnerability. You might never get the response you want from your mom. And that's another difficult fact to come to terms with. But if you start tackling some of this stuff, you might be surprised to find that these visits become a lot more tolerable, possibly dare I say, even enjoyable. Or you're going to learn how to talk to your mom in a new way that allows her to respond to you differently. I think that's also possible.

Right, or you'll find that by taking care of yourself better, her limitations, they just won't hurt you as much. True. So who knows? You're going to find out, but as with most things, it really does start with you. So good luck. I know you can do it, sending you a big hug, and we are wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your sibling is spiraling out of control, or you're stuck in a creepy and abusive family and you don't know how to survive. What a heartbreaking letter from last week, Gabe. Oh, wild.

Hit us up Friday atjordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 29-year-old woman from Germany and work as an IT consultant at a consulting firm. I'm also pregnant, and we'll be going on maternity leave soon for about 18 months. Ah, you got to love Europe. Yeah, I know. A trade leave for a year and a half. What a concept.

Okay. I started as a project assistant at this company two years ago, almost directly out of university with no experience. My first project ended up making me an expert on the topic, which resulted in about 10 more projects that I've worked on, and at least as many in the next few years, all with substantial profits for the company. I've been told on multiple occasions that I've basically become irreplaceable,

and that the company is impressed with how quickly I adapted and continue to improve in my work. New hires always get sent to me to learn about the projects and their inner workings. I've also completed multiple trainings and have signaled to my boss that I would be willing to participate in trainings during my leave to keep up. When I started, I did so with an appropriate starting salary and have since gotten a raise of 15%. But now I'm doing the exact same work and more as other consultants on my team, and they make almost double my salary. When I go back to work after my maternity leave,

I want to renegotiate my salary. I won't be going back full-time, 40 hours, but instead plan on going back part-time, 30 hours. I like my job, my company, and my colleagues, and I'd like to avoid looking for a new job with a small child. My plan is to ask for my current salary, but with the reduced hours, which would be a substantial raise,

but would almost equalize my salary with my colleagues who do the exact same work. Is this a reasonable approach? How do I bring this up with my boss without sounding entitled and greedy? Signed, looking for clarity on this pay parity. Great question. First of all, congrats on the baby.

That is super exciting. Second, congrats on absolutely crushing it at your firm. The fact that you were hired at 24 years old with zero experience and have become the go-to expert on this topic, that is fantastic. That's got to speak to how sharp you are, how hardworking you are, and I think it puts you in a really nice position

to ask for what you want. We wanted to chat with a legit expert about your question. You know, somebody with a real job or something approximating one. So we ran all this by Michelle Tillis Letterman, brilliant executive coach, author of The Connectors Advantage and friend of the show.

When we shared your story with Michelle, she said she was thrilled to hear that you know you're worth and you're willing to ask for it. So her recommendation is, approach this first by setting expectations, which starts with a conversation now about the plan for maternity leave, how you can stay involved,

how you can keep supporting the team from a distance, and what you can expect in return. You've already signaled to your boss that you'd be willing to participate in those trainings during your leave, which I think is a great way to stay connected, and also it proves that you're willing to put in the work. I mean, I think, especially in Europe, Gabriel,

I think when you're on maternity leave, you're basically allowed to just turn off your email and pretend like you're not, you don't have a job at all. So, D&D for 18 months, right? Right. So Dungeons and Dragons, that means do not disturb for those of you.

I thought it meant Dungeons and Dragons like I did. Board games, that's what I was talking about. Just ignore the baby and play board games with 100-sided dice. So what the hell were we talking? Right, so you can stay connected by doing these little trainings and things like that. I think people are going to be really blown away by that. As for negotiating the salary you want, Michelle said she would ask your boss how they view your role

compared to your peers who make more money. Your goal in this conversation is to get them to establish your equal or greater value. So here is how Michelle said she would do this. First, start by thanking them for acknowledging your value to the company. You know, like basically give them credit for that and also remind them that they've already done this publicly. Then Michelle would say, so how do you see my role as different from York and Felix and Bayotte? And yes, it's Yorg, but I'm going to say Yorg because I don't want people laughing at me too hard in the emails. You know, those other people that are earning more money than you. By the way, way to plug in the most German names you could think of. Yeah, those are

People I know in Germany. I know multiple people with each of those names in Germany. Those are not stereotypical. York Felix, Bata. Okay. I even know of Bruno, but it was just too, actually, Prunall, but it was too on point. And we are painting a picture here, Gabriel. You sure are. She's from Germany. She's a consultant. You know there's a Juerre, a Bata, and a Bata for that matter, on her team. There has to be. They probably have a lot about that too. Now, if there is a difference in your roles that justifies the salary difference, Michelle, well, she indicated it's important to know that, but if there isn't a difference, this will give you the positioning to push ahead with the negotiation. Then, Michelle said you can

agree with them and communicate that you trust your salary should reflect that. You could say something like, I'm glad do you feel that way. I do too, which is why I want to talk to you now about adjusting my compensation to match the people doing the same job. I admire your fairness, and I trust that you'll help write this imbalance. What do you think is the path to making this happen? and you can adjust that to a 30 hours a week basis, however you want to get there. They might say like, oh, we can't really afford to give you more. And you say, don't worry, I'm not asking for more.

I just want fewer hours. I mean, you've got a lot of levers you can pull here. Michelle's final thought, she would not wait to make this request. Don't come back from maternity leave and be like, what's up? I want to raise, bitches. In her experience, bureaucracy takes time, set expectations now, especially because when you come back,

it's like, oh, long time, no, C. Yes, you are at the trainings. asking for a raise right then, it's kind of like, wow, you haven't even warmed up the seat at your desk and you want more money. Do it now before you leave. And then the gears can grind while you're bringing your kid into this world. Absolutely. Now, about bringing this up with your boss without sounding entitled and greedy, Michelle's take there is when you get somebody to agree with your request upfront like this, it's not about greed or entitlement. It's just about being fair and just, right? You're not storming into your boss's office, acting super presumptuous, you know, demanding 50,000

euros more for no good reason. We can tell from your letter that you're a very thoughtful person and you're very level-headed, you're clearly an amazing employee. So I know you're going to strike the right note in this conversation, but Michelle is right. The fact that there are other people making more than you for the same work, and actually in some cases you are doing more work than they are, that makes this conversation so much easier. It's pretty much impossible to come across as entitled or greedy when your whole case is basically, hey, these people here are doing the same work and they're making more. So can we just make this right?

And if they do, then your company isn't doing right by you. And it might be worth escalating the request or taking your skills to another firm. But you don't need to worry about that yet. Start with this conversation. Do it soon and go get that bag. Congrats again on the baby. Hope maternity leave is awesome

and make sure you soak up that time with your little one. It's very special. Take it from me. Just went through that myself twice. And it's a magical time. And you get all that time off to just enjoy the kids. I think it's going to be amazing and catch up on sleep or try to sleep. Big thanks to Michelle Tillis Letterman for her wisdom here.

If you want to learn more about Michelle, she writes an awesome newsletter called Connected Leadership. We'll link to that in the show notes. You can also sign up for it on her website, Michelle Tillis Letterman.com. We'll link to that in the show notes, but we will also link to her book, The Connector's Advantage in the Show Notes. It's a terrific read. I highly recommend it for anybody looking to grow in their career. You know what's a great use of that properly adjusted salary, Gabriel?

The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsoring part by AGG1. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are available in one place, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. You can also email me. Anybody on our team can dig up a code for you, Jordan, Jordan Harbinger.com. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It really does keep things going around here. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my father is in his late 60s and divorced my mother after she discovered that he had been having a long-term affair and a gambling addiction. I'm the youngest of three, and I was the only one at home with my mom during the divorce, which really bonded us. I'm not very close with my dad, and that's been made worse by

him moving to another state to live with the woman he was having an affair with. I want to be an adult and wish my dad the best, but his partner is just so miserable. She has tons of chronic pain and health issues that make her mean to my father. My dad is not a great cook, housekeeper, or a caregiver, but he tries his best to care for her 24-7. Because of her health issues, she can't be left alone for more than a few hours, making it difficult for my dad to visit my sister and her family on the West Coast, or me and my kids who are only three hours away. When he does make trips, he either brings her, which results in her complaining the

whole time and being generally unpleasant, or he leaves her at home, which means that she texts and calls him the whole time about what a bad job he did setting up the house. This woman sounds difficult. I want to be compassionate because she has chronic pain and health issues, which are awful, but yuck. I mean, it just, ugh, I now understand a lot better what a huge toll pain takes on people from my interview with Dr. Rachel's softness. That was episode 661. We'll link to that in the show notes. It's one of our, again, most fascinating and popular episodes. Pain affects your mental state. It can make you miserable, but also being miserable can cause or increase the pain. So it's tricky stuff that works in both directions.

Right. And then calling and texting him the whole time he's visiting his kids to yell at him not doing a good enough job when he takes care of her 24-7? I don't know. This woman does sound rather difficult at a minimum. She does and kind of possessive, which I think is also probably going on here. I wonder if she's threatened by his relationship with the daughter. But now I'm speculating.

Obviously, she gets uneasy when he's not orbiting around her. I don't know. The pain almost like controls him in a way too, but we're not analyzing her. But look, I know several people with chronic pain and they're not insufferably annoying to be around and have no, I mean, you know, life's hard sometimes, but they don't go out of their way to torture the one person

who's dedicated their life to taking care of them. Anyway, go on. I have no idea what he gets out of this relationship, except grief and abuse. During a recent visit with my sister, he said he was in hell, and he made other disparaging comments about his partner and his life. Ah, that's sad.

Yeah, that's pretty dark, so he feels trapped. I'd like to say something to him about the situation and maybe suggest that he leave her and move closer to me, where most of his eight other siblings still live. But I don't really know how to approach him about it, and I worry that our relationship isn't really close enough for me to make this suggestion.

How do I talk to my dad about his relationship? Or is this even my place? Signed, looking for the chops to help my pops as his relationship flops. Right, so your dad is in a very bleak place right now. He got together with his mistress. I'm guessing he didn't know what he was getting into, or maybe he did and ignored the signs. dot, dot, dot, now he's playing nurse to a miserable woman with a lot of need.

Some fair, some not so fair, and now he feels stuck because he probably feels guilty about leaving her in this state, which to me feels like he got trapped. Yeah, hard to say. Guilty and also I think a little scared. Yeah, right, she is kind of scary because she's so intense and mean. Although I have to believe that there were some signs she was like this when they first got together. I doubt this happened overnight.

Meanwhile, your dad has his own issues. He's an addict. He had this affair. He's struggling to make a decision here. So obviously he's playing a big role in all this too. So is it your place to talk to him? Kind of. You are his daughter.

You obviously care about him. So I don't think it's wildly overstepping to talk to your dad about what he's going through, although I do understand why not being super close makes it a little awkward. There isn't a ton of closeness or rapport for you to just say, hey, dad, just leave this woman already. she's a miserable bag of bones.

The good news is he's already told you that he's in hell. I don't know why that's the good news. So he's literally said to you, Marjorie's really getting to me. He's acknowledging that he's unhappy. So I, look, I do think that you have license to say, Dad, I've heard you complain about Marjorie a few times. I know you're unhappy in this relationship.

So I just kind of ask, what's keeping you there? Why is she still with you? Do you think it's fair that she makes it so hard for you to visit us? I mean, we're your kids. What do you want out of your life? Do you want to live closer to me and your siblings? Because we would like that. And invite him to talk.

If he opens up a little bit, you can help him make sense of his feelings about her and see if there's a part of him that wants to leave but doesn't know how. I would also lead with questions like that rather than jumping straight to, Dad, you're miserable, just break up with her already, even though I'm tempted to say that myself. But even if that's the answer, that might be moving too quickly for him. It might make him shut down and just tough it out because the answers are overwhelming. If this were my dad, I'd probably try to steer him to the conclusion to break up

with her because he's obviously miserable. So is she. So it's like, what's the point? She doesn't add anything to his life. And it's not like they were married for years and years. And it's like, oh, my spouse got sick. I should take care of her. This woman just was always kind of, you know, this is her. But like we always come back to, this is ultimately his decision. If he resists or rejects your help, then you have to accept that he's just not ready to make this decision. And you can still support him and invite him to talk, but he's on his own timeline here. You know, and or on some level he wants to be in this relationship. I think that's important to remember because, yeah, like you said, there are two of them here, and he might be getting something out of this arrangement, even if it makes

him miserable, which is fascinating, actually. My only other thought here is whether Marjorie is a monster or not, it sounds like she needs a lot of support, and it doesn't sound like she's getting it from him. I mean, she can't be left alone for more than a few hours. And like our friend here said, he's not a great cook. He's not a good housekeeper. He's not a trained caregiver. I mean, part of me is listening to this and going, is he even the right person to be taking care of her? It's the only one who freaking put up with her probably. Well, that's the other thing. But like you said, what are they getting out of it? She has these needs. He's not meeting them. He's miserable. He doesn't want. It's like, what's going on here? She might be blowing up his phone constantly when he's

away because, yes, she wants to ruin his trip, but she might also be blowing up his phone because she's really not being taken care of properly, and she's freaking out. I mean, we don't know the state of the house. We don't know how well he's setting her up to live without him. It could be a mess over there. Maybe he's even putting her at some risk. If he's not the one to take care of her, then that is another reason that they shouldn't be together, or they need to find her some additional care because something in this situation just is not working. Well, I'm guessing that's a big part of the conflict he feels, because if he leaves her, right, he's not just breaking up with her. He's ditching this sick woman with these health problems, leaving her alone with them,

and maybe there isn't anyone else around who can take care of her. Because if she lived near her sister, he'd be like, okay, I'm out. Gabby's going to take care of her, not my problem. It's just, it's got to be something like that. You're the only one that can help me. Don't visit your kids. They don't appreciate you. I don't know.

It's an awful place to be. I do not envy him. But if they're not in love anymore, if she's not treating him kindly, if he's not taking care of her well, then who is winning here? Again, I'm just confused. Like, what's the point? Well, yeah, I mean, he blew up his other life, right? So he's like, ah, this is what I have now.

Maybe I deserve it. I don't know if he's self-flagellating a little bit possible. That's possible. I mean, look, it's probably best for both of them to move on as sad as it is. But I think he needs to find her new support if they're going to do that. I mean, you can't just ditch her in this state. Whether she's playing it up, whether she's contributing to her pain, she's in some form of pain, right?

So that might be another thing you can help your dad think through, how to make sure she's set up before he leaves. You're nicer than me, but she must have some family members, insurance, benefits, whatever, something. Or maybe not. Maybe that's why he feels stuck. It's a tough one, but I know there are definitely programs out there.

Maybe he hasn't even looked into them. Anyway, we've talked a lot about your dad. You know, we haven't talked about as much as you. And I think it's sweet. You want him to move closer to you and his siblings, especially given what he did to your family, and that you were probably more aligned with your mom after the split. It sounds like you've come a long way there.

It sounds like you're a really good daughter. Although it's so interesting, Jordan. That is another angle here. Like there's a little part of me that wonders, is she maybe trying to get her dad back from the woman who took him from her? Interesting. Hadn't thought about that. Also, don't blame her if that's the case.

It just occurred to me. I do think her intentions are good. I mean, her dad is obviously not in a happy relationship. I'm not a big fan of. this relationship either, but it's just something to explore, you know, whether the divorce and the way it played out might be playing a role in all of this now. Right. I mean, it sounds like this woman would be a problem, no matter how they got together, but you're right. The fact that dad was cheating on mom with her and then he moved away to be with her, that's a wound, right? And now the woman

who broke up their home is turning out to be a bit of a nightmare. So I could understand if our friend here is like, ha, see, she is a witch. Now ditch her and move out here with us and just get it over with already. And some, some of that might be informed by some legitimate anger she already felt toward this woman from the very start. Very interesting. I do see what you mean. That would be good for her to separate out just so she's totally clear on her motivation. Yes. I really do believe your heart's in the right place. I hope your dad can hear you on this. You said you're worried that you're not close enough to bring this up with him, but also maybe bringing this up with him is how you get a little bit closer. Maybe you guys will bond a little bit

by being there for him and helping him navigate a very difficult decision. Whatever you do, let him lead, support him, and make sure he's doing right by this woman while also doing right by himself. And good luck. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my late 40s, and I've been single for five years after a 20-year relationship. I thought I had seen all the ills in the world of dating until my last boyfriend.

We got along well, we never fought, and our chemistry was awesome. We spent holidays with our families, met each other's young children, saw each other regularly. I loved his kids, his family, his pets, and my kids liked him a lot too. I never put any pressure on him for a long-term commitment, but I did tell him early on that that was my long-term goal. Then, one day, after 11 months, as an exclusive couple, he seemed distant. When I asked him what was going on over text, he suddenly stopped responding to me. That was it. No matter how much I reached out, he wouldn't respond to me.

There was nothing toxic in our relationship, no drama, no fighting. I thought he was such a good guy, too. As you can imagine, I was devastated. I would have respected a simple text and block instead of just being ignored. I now see him on the dating apps with thirst trap-type pictures of himself. I get it. He probably knew we were coming up on a year, and he clearly, clearly just wants to hook up with women.

But I can't wrap my head around ghosting and how so many people think that this is an acceptable way to treat people they claim to care about. How could this person who told me he loved me every day suddenly disappear for no reason? And why do people do this? Signed, haunted by this partner I wanted and taunted by the way he's now flaunting.

Wow. Oh, man. That's weird. Really sorry to hear that this happened. I'm a little stunned myself by all this. Same. Almost a year together, you're seeing each other all the time. You're deeply involved in each other's lives.

You've met each other's families, each other's kids. And then you just straight up ghosted you. After 11 months. Yeah, that's weird, man. This is next level. It is. My first impulse would have been to say, okay, hold up, what really happened? What are you leaving out?

But you say the relationship was really good. No fighting, good chemistry. I know we only have your word to go on here, but it sounds reasonable. Otherwise, why write in for advice when you know. with the, you know, well, then I, you know, you wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was an obvious cause. Even if the relationship weren't perfect, it still doesn't give anyone an excuse to ghost their exclusive girlfriend of almost a year. That to me, it's unconscionable. I know this is like a new supposedly Gen Z thing, but not really. A lot of people are doing this.

It's lame, man. It's disrespectful. It's hurtful. And I can't understand why somebody would do that. I can't either. The only thing I can think of is that she said she never put any pressure on him for a long-term commitment, but she did say, hey, you know, this is my long-term goal. I hope, I kind of want to move in that direction. So maybe he felt that pressure and freaked out and bounced. But still, even if there were some subtext there and some expectation, not a license to disappear on somebody you're dating for a year. It's just, I cannot wrap my head around it. Absolutely. The only conclusion I can come to here is that there's something wrong with this guy and he ghosted you to avoid a conversation that he found uncomfortable and frightening. And I know that's the answer you want. Like,

oh yeah, he's broken. This is just weird. And look, I get it. Breakups are horrible, even when they're relatively easy. But this is a grown-ass man. If you don't want to be in this relationship, sack up, tell the other person why, wish him well, and part on the best possible terms.

To ghost a serious partner, that's something you do to somebody that you haven't met in real life yet on some dating app because you are crushing on somebody else. If that, this is not just a lack of basic manners. This is somebody who is deeply avoidant and emotionally stunted. and frankly probably has some other issues

that you don't even know about. So I completely understand why you feel so hurt and confused by it. The ghosting thing has gotten way out of hand, in my opinion. This is one of the more extreme examples of it. So why do people do this? Well, like I just said,

I think they do it to avoid. It is as simple as that. The confrontation of breaking up with somebody is too daunting or awkward so they just sidestep it completely. And I don't understand it personally. I can't wrap my head around it. It infuriates me when people ghost me,

even professionally, I think it's super unprofessional to do this. And I try not to do this to other people. Even when I get random terrible pitches from people, I always hit them with the thanks but not a fit right now. I mean, because I'm with you. I'd rather get an email or text saying, sorry, this isn't going to work out, than to just be ignored.

We're grownups, we can handle it. It's not that bad. What's bad is not knowing where you stand with somebody. I mean, I wouldn't even, I would give more courtesy to somebody who casually emailed me. And this is your partner of 11 months. I mean, it's just weird as hell. And then you're left without any explanation like this woman was and just left to deal with a ton

of confusion and uncertainty. And in the long term, those hurt way more than rejection. Yes. I think it is in many ways far worse than the injury of being broken up within the first place. Yes. I don't know. Like you said, this new generation really ghosts a lot. I mean, to be fair, our generation does it too.

Our generation does it too, yeah. We kind of invented ghosting, but the one below us, I think, ran with it. I know it's somewhat accepted now in the dating world. It's just how people treat one another, but I find it very lame. But she's in her late 40s. She's older than us. I assume her ex was around the same age. So this clearly isn't just a, it's not a generational thing.

This guy's emotionally stunted. Yes, there's something going on with him, but also this is a cultural thing and I think a digital age thing. And I just, I for one, do not like it. Obviously, me neither. It's easy for me to say as a happily married father of two, who doesn't have to break up with or be broken up with by random Bumble dates every month?

Right. Not saying who's in that situation. But like I said, ghosting doesn't just happen in the dating world. It happens everywhere. I mean, I routinely am in email conversations with people who just decide

to open every follow-up and never responded. I'm just thinking, this isn't even time management. You're just weird. You're just a dysfunctional person who doesn't know how to have an internet conversation.

I mean, look, it happened to that listener a few months ago who kept getting ghosted by recruiters during the job search. Do you remember that? It was causing her tremendous anxiety that it was going to happen again and again, and it was starting to mess with her performance in these interviews and lose motivation for looking for a job. You go on one date with somebody and it's not a match and you don't text them afterward.

Fine. That's not really ghosting. It's just not engaging after a casual first meeting. But if you go on three, four dates with somebody, you date them for a month or more and you change your mind. You write them in email. You pick up the phone. It doesn't have to be this big, terrible thing. And then you know that you didn't leave them in limbo

and you clarify for yourself, what position they have in your life, and you know that there's no bad blood between you. I just like everybody wins. But this idea that you're sparing yourself and theoretically the other person, some kind of pain by just ghosting, is just not true.

I mean, just look at this letter. I think it ends up hurting both parties more in a way. I could not agree more. But candidly, I think you dutched a bullet here. I know it hurts. And a guy would treat you this way after a year, not a partner you would want or deserve. He's on his own journey, which apparently includes posting

cringy shirtless gym selfies on his Tinder account and going on two to four dates with women who don't expect much from him. A good freaking riddance. Hey nobody got time for that. So go get you a man who dumps you to your face. No, I'm kidding. But get you a man who truly wants to be with you and is more than 11 years old emotionally. But yeah, when there's something difficult to work out, definitely look for a guy who can actually have a face-to-face conversation, that's the kind of person we should all strive to be. Gabriel, here's what's going to happen.

She's going to hear this, and over the next week or two, she's going to think of all of the other crap this guy did that gave her the idea that he was a man-child. Totally. And it's all going to make more sense. Like, oh, yeah, he did tell me that this happened at work and he lost this job because of that,

and he's not talking to his brothers because of this, and his parents are mad at him because of that, and she's going to be like, oh, this guy's actually just a toxic avoid. in a piece of crap, and I was just the next in line. 100%. I guarantee you that's going to happen. Hope you all enjoyed that.

I want to thank everyone who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out to Stare Perrell and Matthew Dunn on Iranian hit squads. If you haven't heard those yet, a good variety this week. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100% free.

It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the think if it. platform at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. It's about building relationships and then never talking to those people again for absolutely no reason that they can discern. You can find it for free at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. If you haven't signed up yet, check out our relaunch newsletter for the show.

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This show has created an association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Michelle Tillis Letterman. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love,

and if you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with geopolitics analyst Peter Zion. We're kind of in this soft moment in history

where everyone's holding the breath and wondering if the next time there's an incident the U.S. is going to intervene or not, and I would argue we are not. Safety on the waves is what allows us to have the East Asian manufacturing model. Less than 1% of that shipping happens on land. And that is a recipe for 19,

tens and 1930s-style conflict and competition. Countries are increasingly finding in their best interest to kind of hoard what consumption they do have and not allow trade access to it and then producing more locally. We were moving this way before the Ukraine War, before the Chinese starting to break down, and before the German industrial model started to implode. This has just sped everything up. So we'll probably see significant drops in agricultural output next year, especially in the second half of next year,

which should suggest that we're going to have significant problems with food supply on a global scale in the months that followed. I mean, the food issue is the issue that gives me nightmares, because I don't see a way to fix it. The biggest loser by far is China. Everything about China's functionality is dependent on a globalization and a demographic moment that has passed. I think we're in the final decade of the European Union,

because without that Russian energy, there is no German manufacturing model. And without the German manufacturing model, you don't have the money that is used to keep the EU in existence. The pace of the disintegration here is really difficult to wrap your mind around. We've had a really good run the last 75 years. It was never going to last. It's going to be a rough ride.

So anyone who thinks this is going to be easy is wrong in every possible way. For more about how globalization and our way of life will change dramatically in the coming decade, check out episode 781 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by. Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested. and what makes people like you or not, the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting.

So if you want another show that scratches that, I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.