The Jordan Harbinger Show - 922: Mosab Hassan Yousef | Son of Hamas Founder Denounces Terror Group

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Join us for insights from former Hamas member Mosab Hassan Yousef on the escalated Israel conflict and his perspectives on building a path to peace. What We Discuss with Mosab Hassan Yousef: What does Hamas hope to gain by escalating its conflict with Israel? How does Hamas thrive on chaos at the expense of the people it claims to represent? What would it take to build a viable Palestinian nation? How would Mosab propose a ceasefire, and what does he see as non-negotiable demands? What is likely to happen next? And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/922 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. If we have a terrorist attack here down in Manhattan, first thing the police do, they go after the shooter to eradicate him. You know, then we can talk about, you know, how we can heal the society from the trauma, how we can bring the economy back to its natural state. And how can we speed up the growth process? All this stuff we can discuss after war, now we are at war, and it's ugly war. It's a very ugly one.

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional former jihadi, which is what we have for you today, four-star general, legendary Hollywood actor, extreme athlete, and more. And hey, if you're new to the show, or you want to tell your friends about the show,

I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on this show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, my friend Masab Hassan Yusef, back on the show. If you haven't heard the earlier episode with Masab, episode 407, so OG fans will be like, I've heard this man somewhere. You don't need to go back

and listen to that again just yet. We're actually going to re-air it next week with some additional commentary from me inserted in it since it's so hyper-relevant right now. That episode will include Masab's incredible backstory of being born into Hamas, working with Hamas. He's the son of the co-founder of Hamas, going to prison in Israel, coming out working for Israeli intelligence and fighting against Hamas, essentially. We recorded it years ago, and obviously now it is just as is relevant as ever more so than when we'd recorded it. So stay tuned for that. Or if you just can't wait, go back and listen to episode 407 right now

and then come back and listen to our updated version next week. Up to you. Yes, I could have waited to release this episode and released Maasab's backstory first, but this was an update on the current conflict, what Maasab thinks about it, where he stands on it. I just really wanted to get this episode out there ASAP since Masab and I have been friends for a long time. It's really hard to get him to record because he doesn't really live in civil

for obvious reasons when Hamas is looking for you. He just got really fired up in this episode. He didn't sugarcoat anything. This conflict is moving so fast. I wanted to release this episode right away. You might not agree with many things he says, especially if you are more pro-Palestine than you are pro-Israel. Just take it in context and realize that this is a man who's been there and lived it

and has a very unique perspective. Either way, whether you agree with it or not. Without further ado, here we go with Masab Hassan. Yousef, the Green Prince. So, Masab, it's good to see you again, man, and thank you for doing this. Getting you to record puts you in a little bit of danger and is generally kind of a pain. So I wanted to express my appreciation first on behalf of myself and my audience just for coming to see us again, because I know it's not a light lift. Most people will have heard the other episodes I did with you years ago.

Can you give us like a brief background? Why did they call you the Green Prince, etc.? The Green Prince was my code name within the Israeli intelligence where I worked. worked for about 10 years undercover, trying to find suicide bombers, terrorists, let's say, to decode Hamas, military wing in the West Bank, which was carrying many suicide bomb and attacks against Israel. This was my code name within the Israeli intelligence community. And why did they choose you for this? Because I think a lot of people, they don't really understand what your relationship is with Hamas.

My father is one of the co-founders of Hamas movement, and I was his right-hand assistant. So basically, I had my problems with Hamas. It's a very long story. I did not like them since childhood. It was my father's project, but I had a problem with Hamas in principle. And as I grew in age, the distance between me and Hamas became wider and wider, and it's still actually getting wider and wider until today. that was one of the dimensions why I end up working with Israeli intelligence, dealing with

very dangerous people who blew up universities, buses, schools, etc. You can say that I had personal problem with Hamas, but I had a fundamental problem that I saw Hamas was just a very destructive potential. And I realized that my father was going towards self-destruction. Our people were going towards self-destruction. My rational mind, I couldn't be part of Hamas or just to continue with the family business for whatever security it gave me and contradict with my very basic intelligence. Of course, I can go on and on why I end up working for Israel against my father's own organization.

I cannot reduce it into words. This is an evolution. It took many years for me to come to the realization that Hamas was a disease and I needed to fight against it. Yeah, I think for people who really want to deep dive on that, Hopefully they've heard the previous episodes that I think you and I spent something like three or four hours talking about. We'll put those in the feed. But before we get to specifics on the current events, what is your take on this current situation in general?

Because you're very opinionated when it comes to this, as you should be. No, honestly, I'm not sure about your term. You know, it's not a matter of opinion. You have an opinion as an outsider of something. But when you have a long practice in a certain reality, and you have the experience of at least 30 years of something living it every day and seeing it grow,

then it's not a matter of opinion now. It's not a matter of point of view. It's a matter you know what it is. And on that authority I speak, this is my life journey and it's unfortunate. And what I don't want for the world, actually, that they have to go through

the suffering that I had to go through to come to the same realization. It's why I just tell the world, here it is. It's just for free. Hamas is bad news. We don't have to go into Hamas brain and go through Hamas experience in order to realize how bad they are. The human ego does not accept the simple truth. It is very curious to experience it on its own.

So I'm not posing here as an expert on the issue. I've been saying this for about 20 years. And prior to that, 10 years in secret fighting against such a monster, an ideological monster that is representing the deepest level of human delusion that wants to dominate the universe that is anti-other, anything that is different than Hamas is their enemy. So we're talking about a global threat, and now we have the situation where they hijacked an entire society, what's so-called the Palestinian cause, which many forces throughout the centuries hijacked what's so-called. called a Palestinian cause. And today I see in the United States, the mob down the street,

also hijacking the cause, projecting their hatred, whatever their need for a revolution. And my personal experience say, no, it's evolution. It's not revolution, rebellion, etc. This was good, you know, maybe hundreds of years ago. But right now, we came to a point in the human consciousness to realize that it's evolution. It's not revolution. If we need a quick, fix a fast change because this is how much desperate we are for change, then it is going to be violent. So are we willing to pay the bills of violence? This is what I was trying to tell Hamas, 25 years ago, that violence is a dead end because

you will pay the bill in blood, but they wouldn't listen. My father wouldn't listen. Now the world, and especially the free world, is not listening. that this is an evolution. We need to educate ourselves. We need to grow. We need to work on ourselves, not to blame the other.

And that's Hamas game, and I don't like it. Blame in Israel for the mistakes that Hamas doing. Hence, I feel the burden that I have to shout out loud all the time. Otherwise, people are not listening. And if they continue to be like this, just sticking their head in the sand, blaming the wrong people, not seeing things for what they are,

not realizing these. origins of this suffering, then we are going to go in this vicious cycle for eternity. Were you surprised at all by the brutality of the October 7th attack from Hamas, or was this par for the course? Look, I was not surprised by Hamas savages. I know them. I lived in prison with them for 27 months. You know, if you want to get to know somebody, live with them in a small room for 27 months. This is a promise that I give you. So it's not that. I was surprised, but the scale of the attack was greater than I thought Amas could manage.

And the fact that they captured everything on camera, on one hand, it's disgusting. And it gave us a setback in the human consciousness. But on the other hand, I want to say Hamas made a mistake because this is how they revealed their true nature to the world. and I invite everybody to see Hamas barbarism and what they are capable of doing and this is nothing because if we allow them to grow stronger

to give them what they are asking for they're asking for territory and more power recognition and they want the world to tell them it's okay the use of violence is justified do whatever you want because we are afraid that some children are going to die in Gaza Strip so this is now the dilemma

You know, the moral dilemma of the free world that all of us are struggling. On one hand, we are supposed to condemn a terrorist organization, but on the other hand, we don't want to see children dying, and everybody is emotional, and here we go. We are bending. We are bowing to the devil. Instead of saying, okay, you know, children are dying, and it's devastating to see such pictures.

But we have to eradicate this Islamist group. We have no other choice. You know, we cannot take just a pill and go to sleep and wake up in the morning and the world is going to be different. We will have to face Hamas sooner or later. If we don't finish them this war, today, this time, they are going to be there tomorrow and they are going to be deadlier. I have to say, I think a lot of what you mentioned, the emotional triggers, watching all these civilian deaths on the heels of another horrific terrorist incident, It's been hard for a lot of people to deal with, for everyone to deal with. And all this talk right now of a ceasefire because of civilians in Gaza, it's tough because

while a ceasefire is what civilians obviously need to stay safe, it tactically, it seems like a poor move for Israel in many ways. And I wonder what your take is on this. People want to limit civilian deaths, but I don't know if a ceasefire will actually do that long term. Look, yesterday I was sitting at the United Nations Security Council just right next to the five superpower. And I have to tell you that this is their game. They want to rescue Hamas. They're all pushing for a ceasefire because they need Hamas. Hamas is the wild car. Whenever they can activate it.

Look what happened in Ukraine. Putin was so desperate to change the world's attention from Ukraine to the Middle East. And he knew that the Middle East such a sensitive, religious, the most vulnerable location, if you ignite just a small small, more fire, it turns into a wildfire in no time and nobody would even think or talk about Ukraine. And he succeeded in that. This is why, you know, for Putin, you know, who hosted Hamas how many times in the past year, how many trips Hamas leaders did to Moscow. And we need to ask Putin, what were they doing in Moscow?

Yeah. So anyway, this is a big game. Even Hamas fighters, they don't even know how they've been used by the superpower. And today the United Nation comes again to rescue Hamas. This is not the first war between Israel and Hamas. This is what is it? The fourth big war in Gaza? So basically this is their game.

They are prepared for a short-term war. And they cannot stand a long-term war. What they need? They need a quick ceasefire where they attack Israel, hurt it so bad. Then Israel retaliates. Many civilians die. Israel get condemned. Hamas get legitimacy.

and more power, more money. This is their game. And as someone who knows them very well and understand their mentality, I know their brain very well, I say, no, we cannot give them a ceasefire now. Well, I see the children dying on the other hand, but if we don't finish them now,

what will happen tomorrow? And for all those who say, ceasefire, I say, okay, if we want to go to this extent and if you want a plan for a ceasefire, then I don't have a problem. Let's do a ceasefire. But I have some condition. First of all, I would like for Hamas to return all the hostages, international and Israeli hostages.

Second, Hamas need to give up power. Get on a ship and move to Algeria. In Algeria, the president of Algeria, the parliament of Algeria, they are very good friends with Hamas. Algeria has got the olive trees, is got the Mediterranean climate. It's perfect for Hamas. if they really love the Palestinian people, if they care for the Gaza and children, if they want a real ceasefire

to protect the children of Gaza, if this is really their intention and why they are begging for a ceasefire, then I say quit. Get on a ship, get on a boat, and get the hell out of Gaza. Let the people of Gaza be. Because the people of Gaza dying today

because of Hamas. And because of Hamas, only who's using them as human shields. So now this would solve the dilemma. You want a ceasefire? We cannot have a ceasefire while Hamas still. Hamas is the predator. Hamas is the one who's causing the death for all the children

gambling with children's blood. So if you want a ceasefire plan, then no problem. Hamas get out of Gaza. They will have a safe passage. If they want to keep their uniform, their guns, no problem. They can take their guns with them and get the hell out of Gaza. and let the children live. Then I'm sure Israel will be willing to withdraw from Gaza and give Gaza back to the Palestinian

authority, more moderate ruler that is more accountable to the international community. They are corrupt. I don't like them either. But at least they are not using innocent civilians as a human shield. So before we talk about ceasefire, I want to understand who is proposing Seasfire. What's their objective of the ceasefire? What's their goal? What they want to achieve from a ceasefire?

Is it given a lifeline to Hamas? Then this ceasefire is a corrupt ceasefire. It's poisonous. It was not meant to save the children of Gaza. It was meant to save Hamas. And to that ceasefire, I say no. Can you explain the organizational structure of Hamas a bit? I know the top leaders live in Iran, Qatar, and elsewhere.

And they're not in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. They're taking calls by the freaking pool at a villa somewhere. If we can't get the leaders and cut the head off the snake, does the IDF stand a chance of eradicating Hamas? Would it work to cut the snake into pieces as opposed to taking out the head just to torture the analogy a little bit? Whether you start with the tail or with the head, ideally you start with the head of this.

But they are under loss of protection. They are under the Russian protection. Even the Chinese are giving them cover. You know, we're talking about the United Nations, failing to condemn Hamas as a terrorist group and condemn the attack on October 7th. How could this be possible? At least condemn them. Instead, they are condemning Israel while it's defending itself.

And when we talk about civilian casualties, you know, people are so overwhelmed by 10,000 casualties. I say this is a miracle that we don't have 100,000 dead. Gaza is one of the most populated area on earth. this was any other democracy versus Hamas, the numbers would be multiplied. I guarantee you that. Because how can you fight a group that is taken

an entire society as human shields? Israel for at least a month ask people to evacuate North Gaza and Hamas asked them, no stay. It's part of your national obligation. It's part of your religious obligation

to stay in the North Ring Gaza. Don't obey the Zionist enemy. This is Hamas propaganda, and people bought into it, and now they are dying, while Israel still give them safe passages, a few hours per day to just evacuate. This is how evil Hamas work in Gaza. So with that said, now we are not in a position to discuss Hamas structure. They have military wing, they have political wing, they have security wing, they have charity wing, then they have the mother organization, which is the Muslim Brotherhood. we have Muslim Brotherhood here in the United States and they are moving freely.

Why? Because this is how the Muslim Brotherhood work. Back in 1987, the Muslim Brotherhood established Hamas as an iron arm and Hamas gave birth to Al-Kassan Brigade, which was a military arm of the movement. Then they gave birth to Al-Majd, which is the secret organization of Hamas' concern of security. layer upon layer

and you and I we can go into Hamas Rabatoll for the next hundred years we will never be able to figure them out because they are

a matrix of evil because they are meant to be sophisticated to this degree and they activate their cells whenever they want if we don't destroy their infrastructure

everything that they stand for for the first time Israel had to bomb mosques Israel would never bomb a mosque. You know, there are mosques that they're older than the establishment of the state of Israel.

In Yafo, in Tel Aviv, you see those mosques. Israel kept them. It's a heritage. Israel respect culture. Did not have a problem with culture. But today, because Hamas's stronghold in Gaza is operating out of mosques, operating out of spools. They built in their bunkers, their tunnels,

their offensive tunnels, under hospitals. How can you deal with such an enemy? All these people who are protesting, I say, hey, give us an alternative. If you were in the same situation, what would you do? We are not chosen between excellent and better

or between bad and good. We are chosen between bad and worse. Do you think we'll see terrorism in the West as a result of this conflict? I know Hamas has operatives overseas. I don't know if there's significant numbers, but where I grew up in Dearborn, Michigan, which has a huge population of Middle Eastern folks, mostly normal American folks, immigrants, there were people there who bragged about being in Hamas when I was a teenager. My cousin's in

Hamas. Do you know what Hamas is? And I remember going to one kid's house and they had weapons in the house. Now I think about it. I should have reported that guy to the FBI, but I was 15 years old. And my dad's colleague, my dad worked at Ford. The FBI raided his office one day because one of his colleagues was sending night vision goggles to Lebanon and to, I think, Gaza or at least the West Bank, something with Hamas in the 90s. The FBI ended up taking the computers and everything out of the office. So they operate overseas. Are you worried about that at all just from a personal safety perspective? Look, Hamas is already here as hatred ideology. Because many of the angry people, like yesterday, as I leave the United Nations Security Council on my way back,

There was a mob calling, you know, free Palestine, etc. And just the anger, I walked through that mob. And I'm not afraid of the mob my entire life. I've seen the mob form so many times in so many societies. It's all of the same freaking kind. Wherever you see a mob, people angry, projecting their hatred on a certain cause, especially overseas cause, be worried of this people. Because of the same nature.

I don't want to say savages, but we had some terrorist attacks here, mass shootings everywhere. So now somebody who's looking for a revolution, and this is what I was saying from the early beginning, you know. Okay, people in this country are desperate for change. I understand this. I've been in this country long enough to realize that people are in debt. Yes, you are in debt to the banker, everybody. But the way towards change in a civilized culture is through dialogue, through peaceful protests, not tearing down, you know, posters that referring to kidnap children and infants

to bring to the world's attention that we have a hostage situation that we all need to be united in the face of such an evil. People are being so without compassion, tearing down, what's this? you see even a poster for a dog, a missing dog, and everybody would just feel compassionate towards the animal. This is the America that I know. And now what's happened? You know, that we lost our compassion

and just everybody who's got an issue with the government, with the bankers, with the establishment, with the Zionists, with whatever, you know, all hypothetical entities that are nonexistence. And people just all of a sudden united in their hatred. everybody has a different reason. So with that said, if this is the reality, if this is what we are facing,

then we're talking about a mob, and this is not a civilized society. And if we go farther, yes, it could turn into violence. Because the war is not over, and I don't know how long it's going to take. And nobody has the perfect solution, not the United Nations, not the intelligence services, and most certainly not the idiots on the streets.

You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Musab Hassan Yusuf. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks for the show, it is because of my network, and I know that sounds silly, but honestly, I managed to dig a former Israeli intelligence officer slash Hamas operative out of the jungle to do this interview. So, I mean, I don't want to pat myself on the back too much,

but there's some networking skills involved, or at least relationship-building skills involved. That's what I'm teaching you how to do for free over at our six-minute networking course, Jordan Harbinger.com slash course is where you can find it. It's about digging the well before you're Thursday. It's not going to be cheesy. It's not going to make you feel gross,

not going to make them feel gross. And many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to that course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at Jordan Harbinger.com slash course. Now, back to Masab Hassan Yussef. What does Hamas actually want?

You have a close view. A lot of people don't seem to understand. Hamas has stated, preferences and you hear people on the street argue that those aren't true. Eradicating the Jews or eradicating the Jewish state that they'll say, oh, no, that's not true. It's just, but it's like they wrote that in the dang charter. Who do we believe? Them when they tell us who they are or the current spin? I don't know. What do you think Hamas actually wants? Hamas went to annihilate the state of Israel in order to build their Islamic state. It doesn't

stop there. They are looking for a global Islamic state. This is Hamas. So, of course, they can say, we are the victim. Israel is killing us. They can use the occupation as an excuse. They can say they killed many of us as an excuse, that they are looking for something that justifies their violence. And this is why we need to be very careful.

No matter what, from this, they want pro-Palestine, I have no problem. Do it peacefully. Okay. But in the meantime, make sure that you condemn a terrorist organization that want to annihilate a race, a religion, a nation that has contributed so much to the human life, so much to the human evolution. This is the Jewish people.

And if we are not compassionate towards this, seeing things for what they are, then we have lost sight. Then we actually shooting ourselves in the head. This is what we are doing. So with that said, okay, you want to be pro-Palestine? First of all, get to know what Palestine is. You will ask down the street how many people, what Palestine?

They don't know what Palestine is. You ask him, what was the name of the prime minister or the king or the president of Palestine prior to the establishment of the state of Israel? They don't know because there was no such a thing. Because Palestine is such a broad term. And it seems that many people are pleased to project their hatred through this. It's the human condition. It's the human delusion.

I just have seen it in the Middle East. And now I see it here. in Manhattan? This is ridiculous. Go home. Go find the real life. Go find a job. Contribute to life instead of going against

and after the most productive people in the universe, the most intelligent people in the universe. This is something I came to realize inexperience. So it's not acceptable. And this is Hamas propaganda. And those who follow Hamas lead, they are not only going towards self-destruction. They are ruined.

our civilization. And I love our civilization. It's not perfect. Okay. And all civilizations are ought to fall. But this one, I wanted to go for eternity because I think it's amazing. I love living in it. What will stop Hamas? Is war the only path to peace at this point? Or is there an alternative in your mind? They are the ones wage in the war. I just gave you a solution. If they don't want war, if they don't want to die in Gaza and cause the death of tens of thousands of people for the next six months or for the next year could be the next five years

because nobody knows how this is going to develop. If they don't want this, take your guns, keep your uniform. If you don't want to get humiliated, get on a boat, and get the hell out of Gaza. This is my suggestion to Hamas. I don't want to say the lifeline

I want to give them. But the honest truth, they are not willing to do this. They prefer to see the entire Gaza ship burnt down to Africa. before they gave up their ideology. This is the true nature of Hamas. So today when I said, okay, here's a proposal for a ceasefire, that I stand behind it.

You know what I meant? I meant only one thing to test Hamas, because the entire world is confused about their nature. So I say, okay, here's a test. If you love your people, if you care that much, get out, go to Algeria. It's not that far. It's the same climate.

People of Algeria love Hamas. They welcome Hamas. Hamas leaders been to Algeria parliament. They've been visiting with the president. They love each other. So why to die and cause the death of so many innocent people who has nothing to do with Hamas? This is the test.

Will they accept this? Do you think they will accept that? Unlikely. How do we beat Hamas militarily? Like, I know you're not a tactician, but you know Hamas offensive and defensive capabilities, I would imagine at this point, having been so close to it. so close to it. Do you know much about the Hamas tunnels? Have you seen those before when you were there?

I never been to Hamas tunnels. This whole thing developed after I migrated to the United States. We could have dealt with Hamas when I first brought the information to the intelligence service communities and I said Hamas is about to take over Gaza. I was the first to report that. And they did not take it seriously. Then after that Hamas coup in 2007, they took over Gaza. Then Hamas kept on building their military power. And every time we besieged the people of Gaza and we gave Hamas the freedom. This is the mistake. Let them room the region in Qatar and Turkey, in Lebanon, even in Russia, flying private jets. The children of Gaza dying in despair and poverty. We should have went after them, never let them have the freedom to do anything. Do you think that Hamas predicted

Did this response from Israel in response to the attack, or do you think they bit off more than they could chew? You said the attack was more, it surprised you in scale. Do you think it maybe even surprised Hamas and how much they were able to get away with? It looks like they were surprised of how many hostages they were able to bring back. Because when they sent their savages,

they promised them $10,000 an apartment if they bring one Israeli hostage. That was their promise. Those maniacs, when they crossed the fence, They went with lust, not only to kill Jews, but also to make wealth and to make security in life by destroying other people's lives. To the degree, when somebody on their way back, they found a corpse. They kidnapped a corpse. They did not only kidnap living beings.

They kidnapped corpse to bargain for money and prisoner exchange. You tell me, this is not even terrorists. This is dark age savages, unheard of reality that we are witnessing in the 21st century. And people in the free world, we are failing to condemn them. We are failing to condemn this pro-Palest shame on you, pro-Palestine movement. You don't have the capacity to say condemn Hamas. Hamas a terrorist group. Hamas is designated by the United States of America as a terrorist organization for many.

many, many years. And you as Americans, you don't have the power to just call things for what they are. Instead, you are escaping and going to blame Israel. I don't know what's the matter with this type of people. But anyway, whether they listen or not, Hamas is finished, even if it means original war. Israel is determined, even if Israel will lose the American support. The Jewish people, they are not going to allow savages, Nazis, anti-Semitism, whatever you want to name them, they have different names, but they are of the same nature, apparently. And everybody is just unmasking themselves.

Like, it's very clear, basically. Because now it's chaos. And in chaos, this is when people actually show their true nature. So go on, project your hatred on Israel. But I tell you something. From someone who has experienced with the Israeli intelligence community, the most powerful intelligence service in the world, that they are going after Hamas until the end of the day.

It doesn't matter where they go. It doesn't matter how far they're going to go. Even if Elon Musk put them on Mars, the Israeli intelligence is going to go after them on Mars and blow them up there. I tell you, as someone part of the Israeli intelligence operation. So this is a promise. And for you to understand that this is the reality of the, Israeli response, you should know that Israel is not going to give up, not now, not this war,

because they will never allow Hamas to repeat this attack again, ever again. People will say, oh, he said he was part of the Israeli intelligence operation, or if they heard the previous episodes and know you worked with Israeli intelligence. A lot of people will say, look, this guy's just spouting Israeli propaganda. I'm not sure how we could ever convince those people otherwise, But what do you say to those critics of your message and say that you're simply parroting Israeli talking points? Look, it's the same thing with the people of Gaza. You know, when I first start convincing my father that violence is the day.

You know, that was my private conversation with him. He refused. He insisted on that this is no, this is our right to defend ourselves. In his understanding, this is self-defense. To blow up universities, schools, synagogues, beaches, nightclubs. killing all type of people, Americans, teenagers, Europeans, Israelis, even Israeli Arabs died in Hamas terrorist attacks. So in his opinion, that was self-defense. It was impossible to rationalize with him because if this was his delusion, it meant for him to die to get out of the cave of

his delusion, you know, looking at shadows and thinking that they are real. So anyway, even my own father I could not convince. And it did not stop there. I saved his life. Even though he was convicted terrorists. And because of my position within the Israeli intelligence, he was not touched. And he lived. And he's still living today because of my effort to save other people's lives and to save his ass from himself. So basically, what was my reward? He disowned me.

And you know what? I don't have heart feelings. I don't have feelings towards this problem because I had to conquer my feelings because of the majority opinion doesn't matter. But did it end at the family level? It didn't end. The entire nation. Okay, if the sound of reason in their opinion means treason, then this is their problem. I am firm. I stand on a solid ground. I don't need validation from nobody. Even seven billion clowns out there, you know, say you're wrong. Doesn't mean that I am wrong. So whether they're listening or not, it begins with words, reject my words, then you will have to deal with fire.

This is my promise. So, okay, you can stand hiding behind your mask of knowledge, whatever, as outsider observing the outside, and label me as much as you want. If my truth is not acceptable, then you will have to go through. the fire of truth in order to learn on your own. It's going to be as simple as that. Either you take it as simple as it is from me

or you will have to go through it. I survived, but I am not sure that you will survive. A lot of people disagree that the blood is on Hamas's hands, right? You mentioned this earlier. They say Israel has occupied Gaza for a long times. The strikes have killed civilians.

They've locked these Palestinians up for decades in a refugee camp. I have to admit, I'm sympathetic to some of those arguments, right? I can't imagine living in a place like Gaza. I spent a week there. It's very eye-opening. It's very, it's sad. You feel the hopelessness. It's in the air. I don't think that excuses terrorism, to be clear, or murdering civilians, but a part of me understands how people get this way. It's a self-inflicted pain. This is what it is. When the entire society is under the influence of religious opium, drugged, in their religion, drugged in their culture, incapable of seeing things for what they are, dwelling into cowardice, that they are afraid to confront.

They see the truth, they see the predator, but they don't have the power to fight. Then they choose to be silent. Others choose to take part with Hamas. Hence, an entire society is participating directly and indirectly. when a majority of the Gazans voted for Hamas, they made a very big mistake. Because when a majority agree on something, then they are partnering with this.

This is exactly what Hamas did. They won the elections, and now they took advantage of the sheep that voted for them. Now, in a situation like this, a society has fallen from grace. When they agreed to Hamas ideology, gambling with children's blood. They saw it.

How many wars happen in Gaza, by the way? This is the fourth? I think so. Could not they see it the first war, how Hamas played them? Could not they see it the second war? The third war? Cannot they see it now? What Hamas is doing to them?

While Hamas leaders sit in four seasons in Doha paying $1,500 a night. And the people of Gaza are dying, the children, the women, everybody. people don't have the power to just stand and say, you know, this does not represent us. You know, when we have a society that is paralyzed to this degree that does not have the power, well, they already did. They already did a long time before the strike.

You know, and this is what I've been saying from day one. You know, they wanted me dead to contradict them. And they convinced the whole society that this is a traitor. You know, but I lived long after their accusation, and I promise I'm going to live much longer than all their delusion and their lies. You know why they hate me very much? Because when they see me, they see me stronger a thousand times

when I was back in the region. And they hate to see this. They are counting that if I got shunned by the family, I go into the unknown, I have no support, and I will die on my own. But guess what? I learned how to walk on my own and to be alone, And this is the model that I'm trying to express to all the useless, powerless, with no consciousness,

with no human potential that they cannot fight and say, screw this, screw Hamas, I don't want to take part of this. Just jump off the fence. Run for your life. Earth is big. So you tell me about society. People migrate, even the animal migrate. The butterflies migrate.

When there is impossible condition like this, we have human predators that control in this whole thing called Gaza. It's the oldest refugee camp in the world. It's supposed to be demolished 70 years ago. It's unhealthy place with no infrastructure, most crowded, or one of the most crowded areas on Earth. What's the need for this? I don't mind, you know, people relocating. Two million people can be relocated going into the Arab world wherever they want to go. Earth is big.

Why to stay there under the rule of Hamas if you cannot fight Hamas? You know, we're trying to convince the people depart the north ring Gaza to the south ring Gaza, and they cannot even obey the order. Israel through leaflets, text messaging, speakers, internet, Facebook. They used every possible mean to tell the people this is serious. We are coming and we are coming big. There is a big war. We have to eradicate Hamas and the people still, you know, asleep until it's too late.

And now we're witnessing all this civilian casualties. The reality of war is ugly. Israel did not start this war. And Hamas started this war. They are the only ones to take the blame. the only party that has the children's blood on their hands. Believe it, don't believe it, it's your problem. Hamas has to go.

We have to remove them from power because we cannot afford another Gaza war. It's as simple as that. The people want to label me, they want to label Israel, they want to label the CIA, all the people. It's not only Israel in this war. It's the U.S. government, the mighty of the U.S. government, the nuclear power.

The superpower of the world is in this war. And do you think they don't know better? Because we all know that there is no way around it this time. We have to eradicate Hamas. Think that this is extreme. Think whatever you want to think, we are at war. And war ugly. And at war, people die.

It's as simple as that. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Mossab Hassan Yusuf. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

You can also always search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot. You can even email me to surface a code. I would love to help you use these codes. That's how important it is. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Mossab Hassan Yusuf. What do we do about kids radicalized by Hamas? schools taught to hate Israel, taught to hate Jews by both schools, and of course the trauma of being

attacked by Israel in this war and others. How do we recover this generation and the next? It seems impossible. I worry that Israel's incursion into Gaza is the best recruiting drive for Hamas in the history of the organization. Every time they kill a terrorist, they create half a dozen more. There's the famous saying, you can't bomb an ideology, right? Yes, but also the principle that speeches adapt and change. So now we are witnessing an extreme. It's the peak of hatred. There is no place for dialogue and reason.

When we were forced to use the last resort, which is the use of force, and Hamas pushed everybody to the corner, challenging the free world and challenging democracy, challenging everybody who's thought that we were. over the dark ages of mankind. This is what they did. And they want us to go down to their level. This is why there was no other choice,

but the use of the sword, the use of the gun. So now the gun is louder than dialogue. This is the reality of war. This is why war is not recommended as the first option. It's always dialogue. And Hamas refused dialogue. They refused to disarm. They refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.

They hijacked the entire society. They gambled with children, you know, knowing that Israel retaliation will create more hatred because this is where they thrive. This is the perfect climate for them. They know when chaos happens. Okay, so they wanted to just pull such a barbaric attack in the worst possible way that would drag Israel into the dirtiest possible war. where Israel would take the blame.

This is Hamas thinking. This is the Iranian strategy. This is the mullah hatred projected through this war. It was inevitable for Israel. This is where, you know, I get so... I don't want to say, I'm not frustrated. I'm not angry. I'm just furious.

I'm just furious about the situation. So basically, you're telling me about generations. This is not the time right now to talk about how damn. Damage is not only in Gaza. Everybody who watch on the social media on TV, the atrocities of Gaza and human brutality at its best, or should I say at its worst, how can they forget that? Why do you think people are very angry?

Because this is bringing the truth of death, the truth of the other side of humanity, of human cruelty, where there is no compassion, where there is no love, when there is absence of God, where there is absence of truth. This is how low we went.

Yes, now we are in modern cities, but I'm not sure, you know, if you continue like this, I don't know all the facades surrounding us and the fashion and the infrastructure, etc. Technology, our satellites.

And we brag about stuff. And the person who understand satellite and luncheon missiles into space, let him focus on that part. This is his specialty. Stay out of the business that you don't understand. Don't even give advice about it. Now it's the time to sit down and listen.

It's not the time to stand and talk to the world. Let those who understand the situation, talk. It's not your turn now. Respect that. And you know what I mean when I say this words. Yeah, I definitely do. Okay. So basically, if you want to build a situation,

the generation and talk about, oh my God, we are killing Hamas, but we are creating many other Hamas. Of course, but we have to eradicate Hamas first. This job need to be done. We have to finish with this task first. This is the hard task. Then after that, we can deal with the human trauma. How to heal, not only Gaza, to heal the entire world by showing everybody that the use of violence is a dead end. And what Hamas did was a dead end. How do we prove that to be correct? It's by finishing Hamas in Gaza, this war. But if Hamas gets a free ticket out of this, because of our weakness, and because of our hypocrisy, because of our short-term interest, because of our attempt to escape reality and escape our responsibility.

Then this is going to be repeated not only by Hamas. There will be many other groups that would say, oh wow, Hamas was able to actually bring Israel as a democracy to its knees. And Hamas was able to create a division in the United States of America. Put the United States government in an emergency state. We're talking about Hamas, such a small terrorist group. Few thousands in Gaza. But they put us in emergency or at emergency.

So how many terrorist groups around the world, savages, are going to look at this and say, like, oh, wow. You know, it did not need to take the Soviet Union to actually counter the United States. All you have to do just have a few thousand fighters. and you will be able to bend democracies. You will be able to make them big for a ceasefire. This is not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not a point of view right now.

We are at war. Let the warriors do the job. Those who talk, I'm very good at talking. The sooth talkers, etc., they can sit down and watch. When the war is over, they can speak again. What percentage of civilians in Gaza do you think support Hamas? I know some people, many people maybe, might even see Hamas as their only hope, their only resistance, but surely many also realize that Hamas is partially responsible for the situation they face right now

and did trigger this particular response. You know, Hamas is not the first Palestinian leadership that pause as the protector of the innocent Palestinian people. Yasser Arafat, it took him 40 years. How many airplanes he hijacked? He ruined Jordan. He ruined Lebanon. He ruined Tunisia. Wherever his people went, they brought destruction and chaos.

This is, you know, where terrorists thrive. This is where Hamas thrive when there is chaos. They don't like order. When there is order, they die. There is no need for them. What the Palestinian people need, they don't need Hamas, a terrorist organization, savages, that they ignite a war in order for them to cultivate

wealth and power and territory, etc. They don't care for the people. What people need? They don't even need a state. What we need, we need to build a nation. And I said this many times. Hamas is fighting for a state. Statthood.

Palestinian Authority was fighting for a statehood. Yasser Arafat was fighting for a state. Everybody fighting for a state. But no one is investing any effort to build a nation. You know why? Because building a nation requires selfless leadership. A model like Gandhi that would drop all the personal gain in order to build a nation. And that's not me because I'm not posing as the Palestinian leader.

I don't want to be the Palestinian leader. I don't like sheep and I am not a shepherd. I'm just individual and I am enough unto my own. But those who want to be in leadership, those who want to be in leadership, then they better be selfless. Build a nation. It takes a lot more effort to build a nation. Once we have a nation, a Palestinian nation, then we can start the discussion about a Palestinian state. But those they want the state because with the state comes power.

With the nation comes lots of work and responsibility. They don't want that. They want the fruit, but they don't want the effort or to invest the effort. Hence, to this, I don't know what to call them, actually. Nothing actually can define them because they're lower than the lowest definition that comes to my mind. So with that said, let's finish with Hamas. Then after that, we can help the Palestinian people. We can bring some police force and give them small guns.

We don't need to give them big guns. Someone who's moderate, reliable, and we can keep them. them in check. Before we give them money, we see how they spend the money, how we can borrow land from Egypt and expand Gaza, make a greater Gaza. Instead of this very populated place, we can build economy, we can build bridges with the rest of the world in order to speed up the process of economic growth. I wrote proposal about this many years ago. Nobody even listened to that. What we need is to give people education, health care, economy, infrastructure, a police force, so a girl or a youngster can travel safely from the criminals and the rapists on the street.

And this is more than enough. I don't want even to think about a Palestinian state. I don't care for a Palestinian state. We have 22 Arab states and all of them are garbage. I don't want another Arab state in that region. It's enough. They have all the human resources. They have everything.

Human resources, natural resources, and they are behind. Pathetic example of beings. I'm talking about leaderships, and I'm talking about a majority of a nation that is falling from grace that is incapable of saying that this is a terrorist group, to condemn terrorism. When they agree on something like this, When they stay in silence, they are partnering with this predator.

So with that said, let's not jump ahead. We have a job to do now. Priorities. Priority number one, eradicating Hamas. Priority number one. If we have a terrorist attack here down in Manhattan, first thing the police do, they go after the shooter to eradicate him. You know, then we can talk about, you know,

how we can heal the society from the truth. How we can bring the economy back to its natural state. And how can we speed up the growth process? All this stuff we can discuss after war. Now we are at war. And it's an ugly war. It's a very ugly one. I know you've got to run.

But as we close here, are you at all worried that Hamas might come after you? When we met years ago, you were, can I say in hiding? I mean, you were located remotely far away. Now you're more visible. Are you, does that concern you at all? Look, Hamas does not scare me. They should be very scared of me. And I think by now, when they see what I'm capable of doing,

they see me everywhere. My shadow, my projections everywhere. And I will continue to hunt them. Me, afraid of Hamas? And what's the worst actually they can do? What's the worst? If you think about it. Because in your calculation, you think that the death of the physical body is the end of the story.

And I tell them if they want to take my body, you can take my body. But everything that I said about their truth. And all the war that I waged against Hamas for the past 25 years will continue. It's a fire that is eternal. No man has the power to put it down. Not a government, not pro-Palestine movement, not intelligence service, not a majority of humanity can put the fire that I waged against. against Hamas for the past 25 years.

This is what I've been in the work. What they want? They want to come take this, behead me, try it, and see if it's going to work for anybody. I'm no scared of Hamas. I'm no scared of Al-Qaeda of this low-life savages. They are the ones they should be afraid.

You know, and hence I say, and when I say this, I'm just individual, but I represent many. I represent money. I represent money in southern East Asia. I represent money in Latin America. I represent money in America.

I represent money in Europe. Many of those who are silent warriors, but they are people of consciousness. We are seeing what's going on. And we are not counting on governments or United Nations. Yesterday I was sitting at the Security Council of the United Nations. We can go wherever we want to go, if necessary. First, priorities, we eradicate in Hamas.

We are after them. They're not after us. The whole situation is so tragic. I'm afraid this is only the beginning. Masad, thank you once again for doing this update with me, man. I really appreciate you coming back on the show, and it's good to see you. Next time I hope I see it, we have a more relaxed conversation and maybe just hang out. We are at war right now.

We are at war. We are at war now. We finish the war. then we can be all relaxed. Thank you, man. I've got some thoughts on this one, as usual. But before I get into that, here's a preview with the 26th National Security Advisor,

General H.R. McMaster, on the greatest threats to the United States. Here's a preview. War is this continuous interaction of opposites, right? You and maybe multiple enemies and adversaries inside of a complex environment. You have to understand strategic empathy to try to view these complex competitions

from the perspective of the other. Do you think our divisions domestically right now are one of the greatest threats to our national security? Absolutely, George. They are. And our adversaries are doing everything they can to exploit them. I mean, Russia's masterful at this. When we were attacked on 9-11,

you know, Al-Qaeda didn't target Democrats or Republicans, right? They targeted Americans. I think it's time to really demand real reforms, you know. And if teachers' unions are an obstacle, we've got to tell them, hey, you can't strike reform anymore. And we need to demand it. The fact that we're driven apart from each other based on these divisions in our society, what social media is doing to us by driving us apart with these algorithms to show you just more and more extreme information based on your predilections.

The fact that, you know, if you're of one political persuasion, you watch one TV network and somebody of a different political persuasion watches a different one. You're creating two different realities. We're doing this to ourselves, George. We've got to stop. You know, we've got to stop it. So let's think about it. work together to make our Republic better every day. And there are some who don't want to do that. They think that, hey, you can't even empathize. You're not even allowed to empathize. It's a real

tragedy. For more, including General H.R. McMaster's thoughts on immigration and climate change, check out episode 410 on the Jordan Harbinger Show. I know what you're thinking. He said how he represents many in India, the U.S., Latin America, and Europe, but he didn't mention Africa or Australia. Okay, fine. Is no one thinking that somebody was hung up on that, right? That's stuck my brain when he said that and I just couldn't let it go. Maybe there's something wrong with me. Well, there's definitely something wrong with me. Maybe there's more things wrong with me than I've been previously aware of. Man, he was on fire today. It's funny because, you know, we're old friends. So, of course, I've seen him like this before, but I've also seen him totally

chill and relaxed. This explosive firebrand mode somehow always takes me a bit by surprise. I think he missed his calling as a preacher or an imam. He's been Christian and Muslim, if you haven't heard those episodes yet. And man, he would have been a very charismatic leader of Hamas if he had stayed in that organization. I mean, you can almost see him just yelling in the same way saying the opposite of everything that he's saying now or just saying even more vitriolic things than he's saying now. I know this is going to bring on the one-star reviews from people who disagree with Masab and other guests on the show. I guess I'm used to that. But before you draft that review, do know that I'm actively looking to interview somebody, even from Hamas, I would be open to that.

to hear their counterpoint to this. I know that's not going to stop people from emotionally barfing into my inbox as this is a sensitive issue. I encourage feedback, as always, you know. It seems like Massab is convinced war is the only way. And maybe he's right. I really wish this weren't so.

I do lay awake like many of you do at night, worrying about innocent civilians caught in conflicts like this, be it Ukraine or in Gaza. And as we've said in other episodes here, we have to remember the human. This isn't a video game. It's not a round of risk. This is real life with real consequences, very tragic consequences in this case, of course.

Masab mentioned in other interviews, and I know I'm going to get questions about this. Hamas is not a nationalist movement. It's an Islamic movement. It's actually against nationalism. This is an important distinction. And the reason is because a lot of people will say, well, Hamas is pro-Palestine, right? They are fighting for Palestine. They are not fighting for Palestinians.

They are fighting for an Islamic caliphate, something similar to what ISIS had designed. I'm not saying Hamas is ISIS. I mean, it's pretty damn close in many ways. There are some fine points where you might disagree, and experts on ISIS certainly do. I'm going to have an expert on ISIS on the show pretty soon as well, and we've done episodes on ISIS. However, they are fighting for a caliphate. They're fighting for an Islamic state.

They're not fighting for a state of Palestine. That's why it's a big difference that actually is important in the case of Hamas versus Israel slash everyone else. And also if Hamas is funded by Iran, it seems like they might serve Iran first, not the Palestinian people. And that goes to show you why they abuse so many of their own people as well. Use them as human shields, steal from them, bully them and harass them, which they do. And no Palestinian, I think, would disagree with that. I mean, people complain about Hamas all the time, just as they complained about Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. I know Mossab is from the West Bank. he's not from Gaza, in case people were wondering,

one thing that's been confusing for a lot of folks lately is they will say, well, Israeli raids are going into the West Bank as well. There's no Hamas in the West Bank. That doesn't make sense. Of course, Hamas has operatives in Gaza and the West Bank. Of course, there are pro-Hamas people in the West Bank. There are pro-Hamas people in Michigan. There are pro-Hamas people in New York.

And I don't mean college students with their head up there as. I mean people who are actually working for the organization, organization. Even in addition to the Hamas sympathizers and operatives in the West Bank, there are other people taking advantage of the chaos and they think the IDF, Israeli Defense Force, is distracted and they're joining the resistance against Israel. I really want to remind everybody once again that civilians are dying in large numbers in this conflict. It's truly horrific. And at the end of the day, those are the people who matter, right? This is not anti-Palestinian. This is not anti-Israel. This is pro-human. This is

pro-civilian. All I want to do is see the least amount of civilian bloodshed possible. And these interviews, well, they're not doing anything geopolitically, but I hope they're informative for you. I don't want you to think that because we have a guest on the show, we necessarily take everything they say and endorse it. I know that's a tough pill to swallow. And I think with this issue, a lot of people have been writing to me and are having trouble separating the medium from the message and as well from the messenger. And I think we need to be, I would appreciate it if you were really careful about that because this is very delicate for me as well, just as it is for any of you. And I think some of my commentary in next week's episode, also the redux with Massab, but the new additions that I have in there will clarify some of this as well.

All things Massab will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. Don't forget we're re-airing our original episode with him next week. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. please consider supporting those who support this show. We've also got our newsletter. Every week the team and I dig into an older episode of the show. We dissect the lessons from it. So if you're a fan of the show, you want to recap of important highlights and takeaways

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Millio Campo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we've rised by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. I know you know somebody who would be interested in this episode. Everybody is interested in this conflict. Whatever side they're on, I think they're going to get a lot out of this episode, even if that lot is just hating every word that came out of Musab's mouth, I am very curious about your reaction and your friends and loved ones reactions. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

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