The Jordan Harbinger Show - 949: Justice in the Mix for Pervert-in-Law from 796 | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

The blackmail victim from episode 796 reports that the brother-in-law who wronged her is now in custody and awaiting justice. Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: The blackmail victim from episode 796 reports that the brother-in-law who wronged her is now in custody and awaiting justice. What happens next? [Thanks — again — to attorney Corbin Payne for helping us answer this one!] When loved ones won't take the meds they need to function (at the expense of their family), what can you do? After listening to episode 807 with Siddharth Kara, where can you send used, rechargeable lithium-ion batteries to be recycled? Horrible mom lives her life like it's prom. How do you get her to wake up to reality? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Erin Margolis for helping us with this one!] When it comes to conspiracy theories, how do you tell the difference between the possible and the impossible? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/949 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the sport mode kicking this family-friendly sedan of life advice into high gear, or is it low gear, I don't even know. Gabriel, Mizrahi. Not sure how gears work. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with the Varan, of amazing folks, from drug traffickers to economic hitman, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators, four-star generals, rocket scientists, neuroscientists, music moguls, and more. This week, we had Kashmir Hill on facial recognition technology, how it'll change all of our lives and possibly be the end of privacy as we know it. On Fridays, though, we share stories and take listener letters and get down on our hands and knees and muck around with you in the hot messes that you all deliver straight to our inbox every single week. Before we do that, though, I was thinking the other day about another weird experience from when I lived in Germany.

Many of you know as a exchange student, my senior year of high school, in the former East Germany. Germany was already reunified, but it was a wild time to be there because it was like eight years ago. They were a separate country that you were not allowed to leave, and if you tried, you would get shot. So that was kind of an interesting place to be at that time. And I used to travel around a lot when I lived there, sometimes with exchange students, sometimes alone, and sometimes I would just hang out and drink a beer with street people, for example, in Berlin or in my hometown. Not like insane people or druggies or whatever, I mean, as long as they weren't getting

high in front of me, but just like random, interesting people that you'd see hanging out slash probably living on the street. And I learned so much stuff from them because they saw everything and they had all the time in the world. For one thing, I saw how people at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale lived under communism versus capitalism. And a lot of people, and we're talking

the bottom bottom, like people who sleep on the street with a dog or under a bridge. A lot of these people would say things like, yeah, we could still take vacations and we had free healthcare.

But then I remember one of my neighbors working class folks. She had to have her teeth redone because she just, you know, had a lot of cavities, whatever bad oral care. The dentists saw you once a year,

maybe. And when you got a filling, they put something in your mouth. I don't know the English for this, Gabriel, but it was like, it's called, which is basically like a mercury.

Yeah, some dangerous metal. Right. It was like mercury, lead, and whatever else. And it was like just the cheapest metals they could find and they would put that in your mouth. Sure. My nightmare. Yeah, it was awful. And I remember her teeth were just like rotting and she just had really bad teeth.

So of course her mouth is full of metal and her husband was the same. And he died. And part of the reason I think was because he was poisoned at work by working with these really bad chemicals. And so you get free health care as part of socialism. but it was kind of bad health care and done really cheaply. And also you needed way more of it

because there were like no health and safety standards anywhere that you worked. One of my host father's friends, he was biking home in this factory that's now owned by Dow Chemical and he has a giant burn on his arm. And I was like, hey, how did you get that? And he's like, oh, I was biking home from the factory

and some acid dripped out of a pipe and landed on me. And I'm like, imagine working at a factory there's just an acid pipe that's leaking and everyone's like, Yeah, yeah, don't go under that pipe. It's leaking hydrochloric acid. That is so dystopian.

Yeah, it's crazy. The factory is called Leinevac, and it was like this mess of pipes and containers, and smoke and fire are coming out of them because they're burning off the gas and smoke's coming. It looks like a surreal skyline from a cyberpunk movie. I was going to say, like Blade Runner or something. It's so dark. The whole horizon, too. It's like a city factory, and people would live next to it, and then you would work. in there. Dow bought it and cleaned it up, which says a lot. Also, the state told you where you could

take vacations. You'd get on the bus. Wait, really? Yeah. Isn't that weird? Wait, the state would say, oh, like, this is your yearly allotment. We're sending you here. I had no idea. Pretty much. Imagine you're in East Germany. They're not like, you can go to France. They're like, well, you can't leave the country and you don't want to be in your small town anymore. We're going to take you to the North Sea, where we have all these, like, really crappy one or two-star hotels, and we're going to pack you in all of these people that you work with or whatever into this place for a week by bus. And yeah, that was your vacation. And that was what you did every year.

You got to go to the same place. Maybe there were a couple of choices. I remember my host father saying, like, you could go to the North Sea or you could go skiing or something. But there was like summer options and winter options. No princess cruises, huh? No. No.

Remember, you couldn't leave. Like, if you go to Berlin, there's Checkpoint Charlie Museum. And there's all these, like, this is how this guy got shot. This is how many people got shot trying to escape over the Berlin Wall. This is how many people died in the minefield between East and West Germany. They have all that information. You just, you couldn't get out. I don't want to get too far off course here, but the escapes from Berlin are really something.

People made hot air balloons out of bed sheets and other fabrics to try and fly out. Wow. I've never heard that. I think these are the ones that worked. Another guy made like a little submersible vehicle that he could use to sort of like snorkel out through the river, dodging mine. in the water and other traps and fences. Other people went through pipes, like sewer pipes that were disused.

Crazy. Crazy. One dude sewed himself into a car seat, and then someone sat on him and drove out. Oh, wow. That was particularly creative. Very clever, actually. Yeah.

That's brilliant. The lengths people go through to get out of those places. It blows my mind. It reminds me of North Korea a lot. Yeah, exactly. One other story, because I think it's really freaking fascinating. My host father in East Germany told me a story

about how he got his driver's license. It took years because in order to get your driver's license, you had to go to driving school, and that took a while, and then you had to file with the police, and then they had to sign off on it. So it took like four years to get a driver's license. So he had his cousin in Canada,

mail him a case of Jack Daniels, and I was really surprised that they could just send products like that in, and he'd go, yeah, the customs guys, you'd get jeans that were Levi's, and they would peel the labels off. They would cut them off. But so the case of Jack Daniels arrives in like two or three bottles are missing,

which is, I guess, pretty. standard. It's like that's the grift that the customs guys do. Sure. Yeah, it's the custom import. So he took two bottles to the driving school and he was like, so I can drive. And they were like, uh, we believe you, but maybe you should show us. So they put him in the car and gave him like a final exam on the first day. They were like, okay, good enough. So he did that, walks out with a driving certificate. And he goes to the police station and he's like, I want a driver's license. And they're like, yeah, all right, it's going to take two years and you got a sign here. And he's like, clunk, clunk, sets down another two bottles of Jack Daniels,

and they were like, okay, kachink, here's your driver's license. They probably laminated that shit in the break room. And I thought that was really funny. They were just like, okay, that's aside from all the other insane things that happen in places like that. Remember that show fan who wrote in a couple years ago asking for advice on how to track down her baby brother

who was stolen from her parents at birth? They lied and said he died by the East German government, and they just sold him to somebody who wanted a kid, I guess. By the way, side note, did you see the article that came out today about the same exact thing happening stolen children but in Georgia, the country of Georgia? I did. I haven't read that, but I saw that headline and I bookmarked it. So these twins were apparently sold at birth. And then years later, I'm guessing early 20s or late teens, they found each other in a TikTok video.

Oh, because people were probably like, you look just like this other person. And then she was like, whoa, that does look like me. That would be so weird. Well, actually, it was a TikTok video and a TV talent show. I haven't read the article closely, but I think they were watching their equivalent of America's Got Talent or something. And this girl saw somebody who looked exactly like her. And then she started getting messages from friends and family like,

why are you on this show under a different name? And she's like, it's not me, but we're all very weirded out because this person looks like my identical twin. And yada, yada, yada, lots of stuff happened in between and they found each other. So this happened in many communist countries. The stories of kids being reunited is wild. That's really sad. But so cool, they found each other earlyish in life and not when they're like 75.

I mean, they can't make up for a lost childhood like that, but they can be as tight as they want at age 20. All right. As always, fun stuff. Top shelf doozies today. Gabe, the first thing out of the mailbag this week is an update on a previous dues. Am I right? It is. That's right.

It's a legendary feedback Friday doozy, the sequel. Take it away. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm the listener who wrote in about a year ago whose brother-in-law hid a camera in her bedroom and extorted her. Okay, so for anyone who didn't hear that episode, this was the story about the woman whose brother-in-law basically threatened to show her colleagues

these pictures and videos that he secretly took of her in her apartment if she didn't sleep with him. Which is gross. So gross. So she did the right thing. She wrote into us about this. Yes. Thank goodness. She turned over all the evidence, which included his confession on a recorded phone call because he's a brilliant criminal like many are to the police. And the police, I believe they got the laptop with the video that he had taken as well. So the police took a super long time investigating and bringing charges. In fact, when she wrote in, they just hadn't done anything and they wouldn't give her an update. And she was like, okay, they don't care. That's right. It wasn't clear if they just had to move slowly because that's how the procedure went or if they were sleeping on the investigation. But either way, yes, it was really dragging on.

And that was episode 796, by the way. We'll link to that in the show notes if you want to give it a listen. So she goes on, after I wrote in, my sister chose to stay with her husband and fight for her marriage, which was absolutely heartbreaking for me. Yeah, no kidding. Jordan, I was actually very worried that that would happen. Yeah, if I recall correctly, her sister was kind of like in denial or enthralled to this guy. And it was like, I'm going to fight for the relationship.

And it's like, he secretly filmed me changing and then said he would release it if I didn't sleep with him. This is not a guy who's like habitually late to appointments. You know, like, what are you talking about? Maybe she was even scared of the guy. I don't know. It was just kooky. Hard to say, but yeah, she was pulling away from the family and seemed to be sticking by this creep. So something was going on with the sister.

We couldn't tell. So she goes on. A year later, though, she has begun the divorce process. Thank God. Thank God. Get the hell away from this dude. He literally sextorted your sister. Why would you say with him one more day?

Stories like this always baffle me. Carry on. I'm happy about that, but we're still estranged, and I have no interest in speaking with her at this time. I'm hurt that she stayed with him. Yeah, I get it. This is a hard one to come back from. When you literally stay married to your sister's abuser slash extortionist,

that's not a, okay, well, NBD, let's go get a pedicure situation to make up for it. This is like months of conversation and maybe therapy. I was so frustrated with the sister. People don't do that unless they have their own issues. That's the only reasonable conclusion, I think. Which we're about to hear about. So she goes on, but I also learned something new that makes me have a great deal of empathy for my sister.

I've never been close with my mom, and she's always been emotionally unavailable, but during this difficult time, I naturally sought out support from her. When I told her I was pressing charges against my brother-in-law, Her response was, you should really think about what you're doing and how it affects people. Oh, my God. And that sums up my mother.

Oh, wow. Okay. Just keep going. I don't even. Yeah. We got into an argument and she proceeded to make it all about her and how she's a victim of having a quote unquote disrespectful daughter like me. Oh, boy. This is just, I have a lot of thoughts.

But first of all, this is just incredibly sad. to go to your mother, the one person in this world who, you know, should 100% have your back, especially when a literal pervert's extortionist targets you in such a violating way, and to have her say, well, you should really think about what you're doing and how it affects people. That is devastating, especially when it's, well, this might be mildly inconvenient for me. So I'd rather you just suck up the trauma. It's almost cartoonish. Yeah.

It's like hard to believe that anybody would actually say. It's just so deeply hurtful and disappointing. I am with you. I am angry for her. 100%. Yeah, same. Also, must have made her feel even more alone in all of this, which just sucks. So she goes on, thanks to your show, I realized that my mother is a covert narcissist. That makes sense. This was my light bulb moment.

This realization simultaneously made my life unravel and fall into place. I dove into narcissism to understand how it affects me and my siblings. I realized that my oldest sister is the classic golden child. My other sister, the one who's married to the guy who extorted me, is codependent. And I am my mom's scapegoat. My sister stayed with this guy because it's what she knows and what she thinks she deserves. Bingo, that does make sense. We've been abused our whole lives, and mom calls it love.

I just feel bad for my sister and wish she knew better. I try talking to her about it in hopes that it would help her see the situation she's in, but she still can't even look at me. She's got to be pretty ashamed and or, I mean, maybe she's a little afraid of you somehow. Which would not be entirely inappropriate, in my opinion. Yeah, that's a fair point. Anyway, she goes on, in short, I've lost my sister and my mom to this situation. I was also raped years ago, and what my brother-in-law did has brought up that trauma again.

Oh, man, I am so sorry to hear that. That is truly awful. Yeah. I mean, what a terrible thing to have happened if you've been through something like that. Well, yeah, regardless, of course. And this new piece of backstory just makes the original story so much worse. I hate that this guy dredged up this old wound on top of everything else. Terrible doesn't quite do the job.

It's indescribable. Yeah, she's really going through it. So she goes on, I have nightmares of being raped and stalked. I live in paranoia. I'm afraid to be home alone. I'm afraid to get undressed in my own home, although moving out from where this happened has helped a bit. And I experience a lot of turmoil around my familial relationships,

emotional confusion, and breakdowns. Needless to say, I haven't known peace in a long time. Don't worry, I've been in therapy for half of my life. Well, that's excellent news. I'm so glad you're there. But yeah, all of this makes perfect sense. My heart just breaks for you. It really does.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I just want to give you a huge hug right now. This is like a pile on. A lot for one person to deal with, especially at the same time. Yeah, I also have to say I'm really happy that she moved into a new place. That was a smart move. I know it doesn't solve everything overnight, but starting over in a new place after you go through a trauma like this, that's a great idea. Yeah, you're not like staring at the spot in the corner where the hidden camera was every time you walk in.

Exactly. Yeah. So the letter goes on. A few weeks ago, over a year since this all happened, the police finally contacted me to move forward with pressing charges and an arrest warrant. My brother-in-law was arrested, but then let go. A pretrial hearing is coming up. The detective who contacted me explained the risk of going to trial and how my brother-in-law could walk free. Since he doesn't have a criminal record, the detective pointed out that a plea deal won't make much of a difference in terms of his punishment,

but it would guarantee that he doesn't get away with his disgusting crime. I know my brother-in-law has the ultimate say, but if I'm given a choice, the detective said sometimes they ask, should I support the plea deal or should I push for this to go to trial? My boyfriend, who is my biggest support, has brought up suing him for everything we've been dealing with. I don't want vengeance. I just want justice. What would you do? Signed even more in awe of the flaws in the law designed to stop my brother-in-law and wondering whether I should support the plea, proceed with a courtroom scene, or go on a litigation spree. Boy, well, this is quite an update. I want to thank you for continuing to share so much with us and for being so vulnerable. Gabe, I remember thinking when we first took this letter ages ago, man, this woman is strong.

She's been through the ringer here, and all things considered, she's handling it pretty damn well from the sound of it. She is. She's remarkable. Yeah. So to find out that this is still dragging on and that you went through another huge trauma before all of this and that you come from the family that you do, I mean, I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing because it's insane. The amount of pressure is just crazy. Totally.

The deck was just stacked against you in multiple ways. The fact that you're functioning at you. at the level that you are, that you're in therapy, that you have a partner who really has your back and that you're not just a mumbling mess in a corner of a room somewhere, it's just extraordinary. And I know you're struggling a lot lately. How could you not?

But I just want you to take a moment and recognize all of the ways that you seem to be showing up for yourself and moving through this objectively traumatic period with a lot of resilience, a lot of grace. You deserve a lot of credit for that. Sometimes we forget to do that in the middle of this kind of shite storm.

Amen. Now, about the family, realizing that you were raised in a narcissistic family system, like you said, it's a bombshell. It's one of those discoveries that make you go, oh, these are the people I grew up with. This is how they treated me. This is how they operate. It reminds me of a lot of what I talked about with Dr. Romney, the narcissism expert. Actually, I think that would be a great interview for you to listen to right now, how to

protect yourself from a narcissist. That was episode 742 and 743, obviously linked in the show notes. All that to say, your newfound clarity. your anger, your sadness, they all make total sense. And I'm sure that a lot of people listening to this can relate to your childhood. Or who knows, maybe you just ruin somebody else's relationship with their mom because they're like, oh my God, light bulb moment again. That could go either way.

Pretty standard for Feedback Friday, I would say. I also have to say the fact that you can hold your anger and your sadness and all of this grief and still empathize with your sister, I think that is pretty remarkable, too. Yeah, I agree. I'd probably be running people over with my minivan by now. I know. It feels like we're kind of gassing her up here a little bit, but this is another thing that you deserve a lot of credit for, being able to appreciate why your sister is the way she is and still honoring your experience in all of this as the central victim. Agree. Impressive. So about your question, just like last time, we wanted to reach out to defense attorney, friend of the show, and apparently our resident extortion expert, Corbyn Payne. And after saying a lot of the same things we just said about you, Corbyn shared his take on the whole,

offer versus going to trial decision, in his view, if there is a taped phone confession of this guy spying on you and extorting you, then Corbin does not see him winning at trial. The odds of him walking away Scott Free, pretty low. But after he gets found guilty, then you get into the sentencing phase of the trial, and that part can always be a little wonky. But if your brother-in-law has never been in trouble before, Corbin said there's a good chance that he'd be eligible for probation as opposed to actual prison time. That sucks. I don't know how else to put it. That's often how the system works, though. There's another factor Corbyn said is worth considering here, which is whether your brother-in-law pleads guilty to something that would put him on some kind of offender registry. Because those

registries, we've taken questions from people who are on those registries here on the show. Those registries can ruin the lives of people who are on them. Just a couple weeks ago, there was a guy who got on the thing, even though his case was dismissed because he didn't do anything. And it still shows up in background checks and he's getting fired from jobs that he likes because they're like, oh, you're on the registry for this? And he's like, ah, it's BS. Here's the report. And they're like, yeah, but you're still on the list. So if this guy has to get registered because of what he did to you, then that itself is going to be a pretty serious punishment. I mean, that is a scarlet letter, big time. Now it's up to you to decide whether that punishment feels sufficient,

whether it's enough. Another thing that might also help you is the opportunity to, as they say, have your day in court. Sometimes just being able to confront your abuser, call out their bad behavior, publicly name and shame them. By the way, in the public record, for that matter, that can be very healing. For other people, it can be re-traumatizing. It all depends on your capacity these days for this confrontation. What having your day in court would bring up for you, what you want out of that experience. Again, this is something you get to decide for yourself.

But I think it could be very powerful. Now, Corbyn did say that if this does go to trial, you'll definitely need to testify to make this case. he just doesn't see how the state could make the case without your testimony. So that's something to consider too. And it raises similar questions about whether that experience will be empowering and healing or just painful and retramatizing. I think it could be a mix of both. I mean, it's an intense thing to do. But also, if this guy chooses a plea agreement, Corbyn said that you would be able to either come and give a victim impact statement in court.

And if you don't know what that is, that's when a victim has a chance to describe the impact that they've suffered as a result of a crime. whether it's emotional or physical or financial, whatever it is, or you would be able to write one that could be read by the prosecutor and or considered by the judge as they make their decision about sentencing. And your brother-in-law,

he would have to basically sit there and listen to your statement and he wouldn't really be able to respond. Which, again, I do think that could be so powerful for her, right? He can't sit there and deny. I mean, the judge will be like silence. You are being shamed right now, which has got to feel great.

This is what happened in the Larry Nassert trail. You guys remember that. scumbag. He was the USA gymnastics coach who abused all those athletes, often in front of their parents in these weird covert ways. Many of his victims got to testify to the significant harm that he did them. And I think there were something like 140, 150 of those statements. And I'm not sure if they were all read aloud in court. I don't know. Maybe some were written, but there were a lot. And judging by the look on that dude's face, they were extremely painful for him to hear, as they should have been.

And I remember he wanted to get out of the trial by saying it was hard on his mental health, and the judge was like, bruh, are you kidding me? Get in that chair. And if you're interested in learning more about that, by the way, check out my interview with Rachel Dunhollander. She was the first victim to publicly accuse Larry Nasser. That was episode 332.

Fascinating conversation. Another brave woman. We'll drop that link in the show notes too. So telling your brother-in-law how he impacted you, it could be part of the justice and healing that you're looking for here. Now, Corbyn did share a small caveat here, which is all of this is determined by state law. Based on what we know, all 50 states allow some form of victim impact information at sentencing. But some states allow them at different stages.

Bale, pretrial release, plea bargain hearings. But however it plays out, if you want your day in court, you could probably still get that even if your brother-in-law ends up taking a plea agreement. Now, as far as a civil lawsuit goes, Corbyn said that it does sound like you have a strong case, and this would be another opportunity for you to drag this guy into a courtroom and confront him and publicly expose him, but Corbyn did want to caution you that you might not get much money out of him. As he put it to us, you know, it's one thing to bring a lawsuit and get a judgment in your favor and have this guy ordered to pay you money. It's another thing entirely to actually collect that money. If your brother-in-law is broke, this wouldn't be much of a benefit to you.

If he's fairly well off, then it might be a benefit if you can actually collect. Either way, Corbin's recommendation is to have a chat with a good personal injury lawyer in your area, of course. And that person will be able to advise you on what the process would require and what your prospects might be and also what damages you might be able to expect. But Corbyn's advice is to go into this whole process knowing what you ultimately hope to achieve here. You've got to be clear on that. It's an interesting question whether a dollar amount will bring her the justice she's looking for. I mean, money's always out. Don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure how you quantify the emotional toll this guy has taken on her in dollars and cents.

Right. That's always the interesting question in cases like this. And I think it's probably wise to not look to the money to fully resolve the pain that you're in. I mean, if you decide to sue him, it might be better to think of it as a form of compensation that might help with certain practical matters. Like, for example, paying for therapy, which is where you're ultimately probably going to do the real healing. Exactly. You could theoretically find yourself, I don't know, $300,000 richer. Let's say he's got an actual job and they have to garnish his wages for the next decade to get it. I don't know what the standard damages are for extortion these days. Maybe it's more, maybe it's less, no idea. But, you know, you'd have that money coming in every month or it'd be in the bank, whatever, and, you know, you'd still have to work through the pain of your mom not supporting you, losing your sister or the earlier assault, but it would pay your mortgage, maybe. So it is important to be clear about what this money would and would not do for you

if you can even collect from this trash can of a brother-in-law that you have. One last thing. Corbyn also wanted to remind you that most states have some form of a victim's bill of rights. So he would encourage you to review that because most of the time victims can request certain provisions related to safety as part of the plea agreement. Now, those provisions should be in there by default. But Corbyn said, you know, to make sure it explicitly says this guy cannot come around you as well as addressing any other safety concerns. Again, so sorry this happened to you and that you've been through so much in your life. But like I said, you're moving through it with curiosity, empathy, patience, and a very impressive commitment to,

taking care of yourself. I am so proud of you for that. My hope is that this guy has to pay for what he did to you in some form and that the punishment is significant. And I hope that that gives you some closure and some peace, although one of the tough things you're learning from this is that the pain you feel it might live on in some of these relationships, right, with your mom, your sister, even with the criminal justice system itself, depending on how this shakes out. So the most important thing you can do, legal stuff aside, is keep taking care of yourself. Talk about all this in therapy, stay close to the people who are loving and safe for you like your boyfriend, and be very thoughtful about how you engage with mom and sister going forward. Again, that Dr. Romney

interview would probably come in pretty handy right now. Hoping the plea deal or maybe the trial goes your way and delivers the outcome that you deserve. Sending you a huge hug. Hang in there, my courageous friend. You are making real progress here. Gabe, I am mad at this guy. I am mad at this guy. Furious. Horrible. You know what's weird about stuff like this is I can't even imagine doing that to anybody. It has never even occurred to me to do anything this bad to anybody. I've never been that mad or that jealous or trigger,

whatever it is that causes this. You just have to be such a next level scumbag and sociopath for this to even enter the realm of consciousness. Like, oh, I could film her changing and then threaten, like, what? People like this need to be prosecuted and held accountable. They just have to. He sat around and planned this.

How freaking weird is that? I mean, this is pathology, right? This is like a personality disorder. This is a real mental illness and a dangerous personality. And yes, obviously, I mean, he must have been through some terrible stuff in his life where it just has flawed wiring. But yeah, I don't know what to say because we've heard horrible stories about the criminal justice system. But I really, really hope that this guy gets held accountable because he left a mark.

Yeah, indeed. Well, you know, you can never replace a mother's love, but you sure can try with one of the fine products and services that support this show. And nothing like the mom from last question, our sponsors are going to make it all about you. All right. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place.

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay. Hey, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. A few years ago, my husband lost his job due to the pandemic. This was a big blow to his confidence, and he developed a drinking problem because of it.

That's hard. I'm sorry to hear that. After a year of begging him to help himself in our relationship, he finally got on depression medication and began therapy. We also worked on developing healthier habits like going hiking, biking, cooking, and appreciating life together. It was actually the happiest we've ever been. Amazing. Yeah. Nice little turnaround there. Since things were going well, we decided to grow our family. After some testing, though, we realized that we were going to have to go through IVF.

This was a struggle for my husband because he felt like it was his fault. But we worked through those feelings together, and last year, we got the amazing news that we were pregnant. We were so excited to see what this next chapter was going to bring us. That's awesome news. I am happy for you. But this is a feedback Friday letter. So I know something is about to happen. But each time we went in to make sure everything was going well with the pregnancy, my husband became very anxious and tried to pick a fight. Then a couple months later, he got COVID pretty badly and isolated himself.

I later found out that he stopped taking his medication. He would stay in bed for hours each day and sometimes even miss work. He would dismiss my worry about his health and how this was affecting his career and our relationship. This led him to relapse again a few times, including on my birthday and on Mother's Day. That caused him to have even more guilt and shame, and to be honest, it made me angrier. One time when he was drunk, he could barely stand up or walk in a straight line. When he tried, he almost pulled me down when he was falling. I could have been seriously hurt, and I feared for my baby's life.

We got the family involved, his and mine, to support us through this like we did a few years ago. but he still refused to take his medication or go to therapy. Okay, so he's obviously going through something really difficult, but it's frustrating. It is. I can understand why she's so angry. So she goes on, as we got closer to our due date, his anxiety was at an all-time high, and he started to take his medication again, and we did therapy twice. The night before we were to get induced, we were out for a walk, and again, he was stumbling, grabbing his arm, wincing in pain.

then he fell on the ground. When the EMTs got there, they said it was probably a panic attack and that he hadn't had anything to drink. Then while I was in labor, my husband had a seizure, most likely caused by his medication. I saw him on the ground, blood coming out of his mouth. It was terrifying. Luckily, my mom was there to help me, especially because I lost a good amount of blood during delivery.

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's like the most stressful delivery story. that I've heard of in a while. Geez, I am glad you're all right, as if you needed any more drama at that point in a child labor situation. Wowza. While I was going through all this,

I found out that the fall from the seizure caused him to break both shoulders. This means that I'm going to be coming home to not only take care of a newborn basically by myself, but also my husband, who can't even shower on his own. That's a lot to take on all at once.

Obviously, the seizure was not his fault, but, man, that's really unfortunate. and probably physically very painful. I am sorry for both of you. I guess you're going to have to, you could hose them down in the backyard as all I can think of. Oh, there you go.

Feedback Friday. Case open and shut. Yeah, that's right. I think we're done. I mean, they might live in like Iowa where it's four degrees outside in the winter, but you know what? It'll keep them on his toes.

Yeah, keep him humble. Teach him something. Yeah. Something cold plunge science. I'm just kidding. Let's see where this goes. I am so lucky that our baby girl is healthy and relatively easygoing,

and my husband is now on better medication. He took it at the same time every day regularly for a few weeks, but then he stopped again once he started to feel better. Oh, that's so frustrating. Just take your meds. They're working. What the hell? So many people are like this.

Yeah, it's unfortunately pretty common with medication, I think. You take it, you feel better. You think, oh, I don't need it anymore. Maybe you don't want to need it anymore, and you go off, and then things get hard again. It's a tough cycle. But, I mean, you can't do that. If you need medication and it's working, you stay on the dang medication.

But then again, I don't know. I'm not mentally, you know, ill or whatever for medication or have a serious problem. So maybe this is lost on me. I don't get it. No. Going on an office medication also without talking to a psychiatrist or a therapist, that seems risky to me. So she goes on. He's back on it again, though, and taking it regularly, although I don't know how long this will last.

We're in couples therapy together as well, which took some doing. But now that we're in it, he really appreciates it. and sees the benefits. When my husband is present, he's a good dad, but I find myself getting so upset. I'm mad about everything he's put me through this past year. I'm mad that it still feels like pulling teeth to get him to take his meds and go to therapy.

And I'm mad at the universe for making it feel like I'm barely keeping my head above water. Yeah, I can understand that. That makes a lot of sense to me. If I were married to this guy, I would feel the same way. So her anger is completely valid in my opinion. She goes on, it makes me wonder whether it's worth continuing to try. I still love my husband when he's himself, but he's shown me time and time again that he's not doing the right things to help himself unless I'm micromanaging him.

Ah, but such an interesting question, Jordan, which himself is the real self? Yeah, that's a good way to put it, because I was like, is he really himself when he's the good guy? Yeah, like, is it the guy who takes his medication and participates in therapy and stays sober? or is himself the guy who drinks and neglects his family and his health and his career, which seems to happen a lot. Like if this is like once and every five years, he has a relapse and it lasts like a couple of months and it's like, oh my God, it's such a battle. Okay.

But if it's like 50-50-ish, which one is real? It's interesting that she considers one of those her real husband. Right. And I get it. You know, one of them is the guy she married and the one she clearly prefers. But I think part of what she's struggling with here is integrating these two versions of her husband and recognizing them as the same person. Right.

when he falls off the wagon and struggles, it might be easier for her to go, oh, this is chaos, Michael. That's not real, Michael. But as long as he keeps moving between the two, they're both Michael. It's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The point of that story was they're both good and evil in the same person and you can't separate one from the other. Wasn't that kind of the point of the story?

It's been a minute. I think so. And that is so hard to accept. And maybe kind of scary, too. It's easier to split them off and just quarantine the other guy to some part of her life or his identity that's easier. So she goes on, I don't want to make any major changes. but I want to do what's best for my daughter and me.

I'm scared that if I get a divorce, I can't rely on him to stay sober, take his medication, and go to therapy so that he can be in our daughter's life. How do I manage this stress and anxiety? How do I heal while also trying to navigate these big life changes and questions? Should I leave my husband?

Or stick with him? Signed, Going Through Woe, over this blow to my struggling bow with a baby in tow and a tough road to hoe. Oh, boy. Well, you have also been through a lot here, and your husband has too. And I'm sorry to hear about all this. Your husband's career setback, the addiction, the drinking, the difficult delivery, the latest accident. I mean, this is next level stuff all at once. That seems to be a running theme today. It is for sure. It's kind of a feedback Friday vibe. It is. I got to say, it is fascinating how the last three or four years kind of culminated in that hospital room that night, isn't it? I think so. It is fascinating. And in some weird cosmic.

way. I don't think that's entirely random. Right. It's almost like everything came to a head, so to speak, when you had the seizure, which is now forcing her to go, should I really stay in this marriage or do I need to rethink some things? Right. Something has been building here and coming home from the hospital with a newborn and a husband who needs caretaking. It's just clearly forcing her to come to terms with the severity of this situation. It's almost a blessing it all happened at once, right? Because if it happened in a drip, you might be like, I've got this. But having it all happen at once is like, do I want to deal with this crap right now forever? I don't know. Look, I think you can tell we're largely on your side here, but also I do really feel for your husband, man. He's

struggling in a major way. And he just doesn't have the resources or the desire slash commitment slash self-awareness to consistently take care of himself the way that he needs to. Plus, he's at a couple strokes of objectively bad luck. Being laid off, going on the wrong medication and having that cause a seizure, that part's like not his fault, you know? No, for sure. Although that's an interesting question too, because being laid off was the inciting incident for this whole crisis, apparently. But I would be willing to bet that there were some preexisting conditions or some earlier

patterns or tendencies that got activated by that setback. I don't think you go from being laid off once to developing a full-blown addiction and kind of checking out of your marriage for a year. And that makes me wonder how he was taking care of him. even before things got difficult. Well, right, and that's actually kind of where I was heading too. My heart goes out to him, but it goes out to him up to a point because when you have an addiction, when you're struggling with your mental health, when your career needs attention, I feel

you have a responsibility to give yourself every possible advantage, to keep showing up for your partner, your child, and again, he's just not doing that consistently. Now you can say that that's part of the depression, part of the addiction, but then he knows how to take his medication and do therapy and develop healthy habits, sometimes. So from where I'm sitting, he's not showing up fully for himself or for you, or for your daughter whose arrival is really upping the stakes on all of this. So I think you need to get clearer on what kind of partner you want to be with, what sort of father you want your child to have and what kind of marriage you want to be in. Obviously, my feeling is that you

want a healthy partner, a steady co-parent, a high-functioning marriage. I assume you want that too, but I would really ask yourself if that's what you want going forward or if you're willing to put up with less, whether you're willing to support your husband if he continues going on and off the wagon in all these different ways. If you want that first version,

then you need to share those standards and expectations with your husband and invite him to commit once and for all to being the best version of himself by doing XYZ specific things for his benefit, for your benefit, for your daughter, for his career, all of it, there are definitely some encouraging signs here,

getting back on medication, participating in therapy. I am thrilled to hear that. You should absolutely validate him for that progress. But like you said, given his track record, it's really hard to know whether you can bank on that. And I think it's important to be very realistic about what you can expect from him. From where I'm sitting,

things have gotten to a serious enough point that this is kind of a come-to-Jesus moment. You know, hey, either you commit to taking your medication, go into therapy, not drinking, being involved in our daughter's life, stand on top of your career, or you're setting yourself up to struggle and spin out and cause a lot of chaos over and over again. That second path is extremely stressful. It's incredibly painful for me.

It's honestly very scary. And after reflecting on all this, I've decided that I cannot go through that or expose our daughter to it. So which one do you want? And let him answer you honestly. ask him why it's been hard for him to stay on this program, what he feels his triggers are, why he goes off his medication,

how he plans to manage his health, and then give him a real shot to show you over a reasonable period of time that he's capable of taking care of himself the way he needs to. I'm not saying that he's completely on his own there. Part of the conversation should be about the ways in which you can appropriately support

and take care of him, which includes talking to him about how he's feeling, inviting him to open up more, rather than isolating and struggling on his own. I also think that that means encouraging him to work a recovery program, which might be the missing piece to his sobriety. I highly recommend he look into, I don't know,

AA or smart recovery or individual therapy, which, by the way, I also think he needs. And maybe you go with him to his first meeting or two. And I would continue walking, hiking, taking your daughter to the park, all that. So this isn't, you know, hey, go figure this out on your own, let me know if you can hang.

But so much of his work right now is the stuff that ultimately he needs to do on his own. And it starts with deciding what kind of husband, father, colleague, and human being he wants to be. Gabe, am I being too brutal here or does this make sense? I mean, he's either in or he's out. He can't freaking half-ass this. I agree. It makes perfect sense.

When she asked, how do I manage this stress and anxiety, I found myself going, I don't think this is something you should try to, quote-unquote, manage, you know, in the long term. Your husband's choices are largely creating this stress and anxiety. And sure, the way that you respond to him is going to determine how stressed you become, how anxious you become. So definitely look at that. But the reality is that you're married to a stressful and anxiety-producing partner a lot of the time. So I think the better question is, what kind of stress and anxiety am I willing to live with? Is living with this stress and anxiety healthy and sustainable for me and my daughter?

Now, again, if your husband says, I am out of control and I am struggling and here is why, I would absolutely listen and be there for him. Although I think you've probably been doing that already, and I'm sure that that's what you guys are talking about every single week in couples therapy. But there's a certain baseline of functioning that has to be in place for you guys to really be able to work on this. So even if your husband is like, I need help,

and this becomes a really tough chapter while you guys get better, he has to be showing up in a way that makes this tough chapter doable. So that might be another thing that you guys talk about. All of that said, I do think your husband needs your help right now as he recovers from this injury. I'm not sure that you should separate when both of his shoulders are literally broken and he can't even shower alone. I mean, poor guy. But like you said, this is a very, very, very big responsibility. I'm just picturing you sleeping three hours a night and learning how to be a new mom and then helping your husband bathe and making lunch for him and

making sure he's on top of his medication and his work and his therapy and on and on and on. It just does seem pretty unsustainable. Yeah, man. She has two babies on her hands. Who has the bandwidth for that? I think she needs some help right now. Come on. I do too. For the next few months, anyway. So my advice would be to open yourself up to that help and find the support you need.

You know, maybe your mom stays with you guys for a little while and helps you with the baby while you help your husband. Maybe she can give you a little reprieve and some much needed company. Maybe you hire some help. Maybe you find a nanny for the baby part time. Somebody who can be a nurse for your husband. Who knows? Maybe insurance will even cover part of that. Maybe your husband asks one of his buddies or a family.

member or two to come over or help them out sometimes, a couple hours a day even. This doesn't necessarily all have to fall on you. I'll let you figure out the details, but in a world where you cannot take care of two people perfectly at once, especially when one is a newborn who demands so much love and attention, you got to lean on the people around you or find some additional help. Agreed. You know, it's interesting that she didn't bring this part up on her own. And that also makes me wonder if she feels that all of this falls to her. And I wonder if that's part of the pattern too. Oh, you mean like, does she assume a lot of responsibility in general? And her husband has come to kind of rely on her for that. Yeah, basically. I am getting a picture of a marriage where

one spouse is pretty steady and together and it's kind of like the taskmaster. Like she said, getting him to do basic stuff was like pulling teeth. And the other spouse is dragging his feet and falling apart and maybe looking for someone to keep him accountable. That might not be her fault, but it does sound like a dynamic she's participating. And don't get me wrong, like a lot of marriages, It's like Jen keeps everything sort of on task and make sure our bills are paid in the house and like make sure that stuff's ready to go. But I'm showing up to work. I'm not like in bed and she's like, hey, can you get up and record stuff? Like that's not part of her job.

So you're really taken on too much here and maybe he's used to that, but that's not going to work. No, it's an excellent point. I mean, like you said a moment ago, it really does sound like she's kind of a mom to two children here. She's really kind of his mom in addition to being his wife in many ways. And that might also be part of this whole come to Jesus moment. Like, are we going to keep playing this out? So given all that, your question is interesting. How do I heal while also trying to navigate these big life changes and these big questions?

I think you're going to heal by navigating these big life changes and questions. And the healing you're looking for isn't just some one and done thing. The healing you're looking for is in the relationship between you and your husband. and in the process that you guys are in together to get better. And also in the kind of partnership and the kind of home that you guys commit to building together. But if your husband ultimately isn't interested in nurturing that relationship, if he can't stay in that process, then the healing might come from separating, as sad as that is.

And then at that point, it's about focusing on being the best co-parents you guys can be. I got to say, I agree, Gabe. It must be so hard for her to think about that outcome. But at what point do you go, hey, I am sorry. sorry, but I can't have my daughter grow up with a father who goes on and off the wagon and falls down in front of her and withdraws for weeks on end and expect everyone else to keep him functional in these just very basic ways. There's got to be a line. There's got to be a line. So I would ask yourself what kind of upbringing you want your daughter to have, and that'll

tell you what kind of people you need to be, what kind of partnership you need to be in. I'm very sorry that you guys are going through this, but things are either about to get a lot better or they're going to become untenable. Either way, the outcome will be net positive. Sending you, your husband, and your daughter, a big hug, and wishing you the best. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise if you can. Try to use the descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If your ex is turning your child against you, your vice principal is asking for your girlfriend's boudoir picks, or you're trying to bounce back after being harassed online. Whatever's got you staying up at

night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been thinking about your interview with Siddharth Kara regarding the environmental impact of the cobalt used in lithium ion rechargeable batteries. That was episode 807, by the way, if you guys want to check it out, pretty eye-opening. I'm an occasional vapor, and I hate throwing away my disposable vapes, among other products with similar batteries, knowing that they contain cobalt. I'm sure many others share my concern. Do you know if there's somewhere I can send used rechargeable lithium ion batteries to be recycled? Signed, reducing my fault in relying on this cobalt.

Good question. And I know some people listening right now are like, wait a minute, why are we talking about what to do with trash on Feedback Friday? Get back to the drama. Get back to the human trash. Yeah, the only trash people really want to hear about on Feedback Friday is like a sextortionist brother-in-law or crazy ex who comes out of the woodwork. at the last moment. Yeah, and I get it. I get it. I really do. But this is actually really important, and I wanted to take this letter so that we could build on what Siddarth Kara revealed in that interview. And I'll keep it brief. We'll get back to the, we'll get back to the trash. So first of all, lithium ion batteries and devices containing these batteries, they should not go in your household

trash or recycling bins. That's how they end up in the ground or in places where they can really do some damage, which only makes the whole cobalt catastrophe even worse. You got to take these batteries, or if you can't separate them from the device, then the whole device, you've got to take them to separate recycling, hazardous waste collection points, certified electronics retailers or retailers, recyclers that do electronics take back, or you can contact your local solid waste or household hazardous waste collection program in your area. Now, these exist in most countries, but two resources in the United States for finding a recycler are the Earth 911 database and call to recycle, and we'll link to those in the show notes for you. Staples, the chain that sells

office stuff and printer stuff, they also recycle batteries, tech, ink, toner cartridges. I think Best Buy does the same. I'm not 100% sure what their stuff is. I've recycled batteries there for sure. And it's totally free at these places. And I think Staples also gives you like in-store credit for recycling there, which I think is cool. And they definitely take lithium ion batteries. You basically just bring them in and they give you five or ten box off your, I don't know, your K-cups or whatever you're doing. So that's cool. And I'm not a hundred I'm 100% sure how batteries and vapes work. I assume they're built in as opposed to replaceable,

but I did some reading on this, and you don't want to take the battery out of the vape, that could be dangerous, just bring it in as is. And by the way, there are similar recycling programs in Europe, Asia, Latin America, so it's not just a U.S. thing, but Google this in your country and see what your options are. I was surprised to find that in Costa Rica, they're a leader in extracting lithium contained in rechargeable batteries.

So definitely not just an American thing. Okay, that said, this PSA from your Uncle Jordan would not be complete if I didn't get on my high horse and ask you why the hell you are vaping. I know, I get it. It's better than cigarettes. You only do it occasionally, yada, yada, yada. But we all know this stuff is not good for you, right? Whatever's in those cartridges is bad news. If it's not the thing that's the active ingredients, the weird oil that stabilizes it.

So yes, recycle your batteries and help the world. I love you for that. But given the health aspect, maybe just don't use dangerous products that require these batteries in the first place. And I appreciate the opportunity for this PSA, though, because recycling is a flawed program. We talked about some of its limitations on our skeptical Sunday about recycling. That was episode 680. But it does make a difference to recycle properly, and it can be pretty effective, especially for batteries like these. You know what?

Won't give you popcorn lung, Gabriel. The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals. By the way, if you can't remember the name of a sponsor or you don't know the code or you're on the go and you can't do it, email me, Jordan atjurbaner.com.

I will dig the code up for you. I'm happy to do this. It is that important for you to support those who support the show. All right. Back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm in my late 20s, and due to some financial hardship, I recently moved in with my grandmother. The problem is that my mother, who's in her late 50s, also lives there because she relies on her mother financially. She was a terrible mother to my siblings and me, but I've been in therapy for a decade, and I'm learning to forgive her and to heal. I know that a lot of her mental health issues, even her personality disorder, come from how my grandparents raised her. There was childhood abuse and other difficult life circumstances. When we were young, she would wake up very early in the morning to yell and curse at us about the things that made her angry.

Her children, work, romantic life, my grandmother. She used to drink a lot and was very neglectful, leaving us with anyone who would take us so that she could go party. She would beat us over trivial things like talking or getting distracted in class. She used to drive drunk, fight with people, and beat my older sister. and brother until they were bleeding. I would have to hide anything that could be used as a weapon and started to call the police once I was old enough to know how to do it. That was the only thing that would stop her violent streaks.

She tried to stab my older siblings a few times and has threatened me with a knife. She would always threaten to kill me and my siblings and then herself, but she doesn't do that anymore. Oh, my God, that is next level dysfunctional. I am so sorry she did this to you guys. I don't even know what to say. You did deliver on bringing us back to the drama, though, after that battery letter, though, Gabe.

Jeez. I got you. We're back to the human trash. And doesn't it feel better? I think we're right in our sweet spot again. I feel like we're in the zone now. So she goes on, now she racks up thousands of dollars in parking tickets and traffic violations. She believes that she's psychic and is obsessed with tarot cards.

When she becomes fixated on something, she will spend thousands of dollars on it. She's currently obsessed with tarot cards and has at least 100 decks. She's also obsessed with being famous and makes several music videos and short films each year. She's previously been obsessed with shoes, jewelry, and clothing so that she could dress for her future job as a celebrity. She talks about how she will be famous soon, and it's been at least 30 years since she started pursuing fame. Wow, that sounds a lot like you, Gabe. Although I will say you've only made one short film this past year, and she's made several. So you kind of need to step your shit up.

I don't know. I know. She's prolific. I'm slacking. I don't say. I mean, is she single or? Yeah, you should hit up our friend here and see if she'll make the intro. At least get the workflow situated. Who needs hinge when I manned the Feedback Friday inbox. Am I right? Yeah, the Feedback Friday Gmail, the original dating app. You'll never get bored. I'll tell you that. Yeah, we're definitely going to need some links to your mom's short films, by the way. I am dying to see those. Yeah, send us those Vimeo links stat. I might be the one to

discover the next big thing. She's already got the clothes and jewelry, so only a few little things. things that need to slide into place after that. Maybe don't let your mom hear this episode because I think you might be getting her hopes up, Jordan. Let's see where this goes. She goes on. She has a stable job and has had it for decades, but she has no savings because she spends all of her money and has about $50,000 of credit card debt. She has several loans against her retirement accounts too. She's also very quick to anger for things like someone not agreeing with her or someone asking her to clean up a mess she made. She'll go into a state of fury that lasts hours in which she insults everyone, breaks things, and sometimes assaults people.

Oh, man. So she's just a tornado. Poor woman. Obviously some serious mental health stuff going on here. You mentioned a personality disorder. That definitely fits. Dude, just imagine having this as your mom. This is quite a burden. Must be so hard. So she goes on. She also dates abusive, dangerous men and will ignore all red flags. For example, her most recent boyfriend confessed to wanting to kill all of his exes. But she doesn't think she's at risk because the relationship ended amicably. Ooh, okay. Well, maybe it sounds like you're not her type after all, Gabe. Bummer. Huge bummer.

Yeah, I got excited for you too. Yeah, I know. It's my fault, really, for getting my hopes up. So she goes on, she doesn't sleep often and she doesn't want to see a psychiatrist or take medication. Super interesting. I was actually wondering, like, what's her diagnosis? not sleeping a lot does fit with a few labels.

We've heard I do wonder if she might be kind of manic, but whatever, labels are secondary. So the letter goes on. Although I'm not very close to her, I worry about what will happen to her as she continues to age and especially what will happen to her after my grandmother dies and her house is sold. I don't have the emotional capacity to live with her and take care of her.

I have OCD and lifelong depression myself, but I'm certain that none of my other siblings will step in and I can't say I blame them. I'm afraid she'll end up homeless or be killed by somebody. What do I do for my mother here? Do I owe it to her to support her in some way? Or do I let her figure this out on her own? And whatever happens, happens.

Signed, bail and let my mom flail or manage her details so she doesn't go off the rails. Oh, man, this is quite a story. What a character, to put it lightly. I am so sorry that you grew up with a mother like this. I mean, what she did to you and your siblings, I mean, what's even the word for it? It's horrifying. It's disturbing.

The legacy of a childhood like this must be enormous. And I'm also sorry that you guys have to live together now. I'm sure that being in the same house with her is the last thing you want. This is truly tragic stuff, and I'm very sorry you went through this abuse, which is why, again, I am so happy to hear that you're in therapy and that you've stuck with it for so long. Good call. Again, I'm so interesting the parallels with question one that you can even think about forgiving your mother is remarkable.

The woman from question one had a similar empathy for her sister. The fact that she can empathize with her mom even a little bit after what she did to her just says so much about our friend here. Sometimes when I hear stuff like this, I'm like, okay, our listeners are way better people than I am. Because I don't know if I have a fraction of this empathy for a parent who abused me and literally threatened to kill me with a knife. Y'all are amazing, that's all I can say. I think I would have just been like no contact by.

Again, we wanted to run this all by an expert. so we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the fucking doctor. And Dr. Margolis, as you can imagine, had the exact same reaction. She was deeply saddened and moved by your story

and her heart goes out to you for what you've been through. She's also thrilled that you're in therapy, of course, but that goes without saying, I have to imagine that parents like this, well, they literally keep her in business. So Dr. Margoel, also found it remarkably kind of you to feel like you need to do something for your mom. She also wondered why you feel that need. Now you'd probably say, well, it's because she's my mom.

And her question to you would be, has this woman ever really been motherly to you? Has she been responsible for you? Has she shown up for you and your siblings in the most basic of ways as a reliable and caring parent? What your letters really getting at is, what do we owe people who are family but who have done a serious harm. It's a really good question, and it's a complicated one. Dr. Margolis shared a thought with us that might help you navigate it, which was a lot of people think that if someone is your family, you put that above everything else.

You sacrifice yourself, you're selfish if you don't. But the reality is, this woman might be a relative, but she might not be family as you get to define it. And I got to say, I totally agree. That's an important distinction here. Why should we be stuck with these people that came out of the same wound? or whatever. Yeah, it's a great distinction. I also think it's really hard to measure what you quote unquote owe a parent like this. I mean, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but when you get down to it,

she chose to give birth to you and your siblings, and then she apparently treated all of you abominably. So I kind of find myself wanting to say, what do you owe your mother for exactly? Yeah, I think that's right. Forcing you into a childhood where you have to hide the knives and have the cops on speed dial, where you have to spend nights at a neighbor's house so she can go party and worry about whether she drunkenly crashed the car on the way home? What? I mean, what has this woman done to deserve your love and your loyalty and your sense of duty, especially now as an adult? Exactly. Dr. Margolis posed what she thinks is a more important question right now. What do you owe yourself? What do you need? And also, what is your motivation exactly in wanting to

protect and save your mom? It sounds to me like the idea of not protecting her brings up a lot of guilt for you. I can appreciate why, absolutely. But Dr. Margolis's question there was, do you feel guilty because you're actually doing something harmful or because you've probably been conditioned to take on responsibility and blame, for that matter, for other people's emotions and behaviors for most of your life? When you said that your mom turns things around on people,

that she plays the victim, that she explodes when somebody disagrees with her, or asks her to clean up a mess she made, I can just imagine how a parent like that probably created a dynamic where you, felt responsible for her. You might have gotten the message, oh, man, I need to take care of mom. If something goes wrong, it's probably my fault. I need to make sure she's okay. Even if you also intuitive on some level that that was wrong and that she had some serious problems. So this theme of

responsibility, a hyper-developed sense of responsibility. I think that's at the core of your story. Yes. I'm very curious to know what happens when you imagine not taking on that responsibility in the same way. I mean, beyond these very terrible outcomes that you're picturing, you know, her being homeless or being killed by somebody, how would you feel? What would you need to wrestle with or come to terms with if you said, you know what, I'm not going to save mom. She needs to figure this out for herself. That's definitely a question I'd explore, because I think this obligation might be a way to avoid having to come to terms with some difficult truths about you and your mom. I also find it interesting that her other siblings won't step in and she can't say she blames them, but then she's still. feels this impulse to be the one who saves her mom. Yeah, that was interesting. Like, why should it be different for your siblings?

Right. I mean, if she doesn't blame her siblings for not stepping in, why is she not holding herself to that same standard or prioritizing herself in the same way? Yeah, her siblings get to have boundaries, but she doesn't? That's kind of what it sounds like. Dr. Margolis dropped a pretty intense truth bomb on us, which was, in her experience, when it comes to personalities like this, no matter what you do, you cannot save them. Now, that doesn't mean that they're ultimately unsavable, but if they're going to turn their lives

around, they have to be the one to do it. If your mom is unwilling or unable to see a psychiatrist and get medicated and take her medication consistently and work on herself and mend her relationships and come up with a financial plan, et cetera, et cetera, if she keeps making these choices, basically, nothing you do or say will change the course of her life, especially at this point. And sadly, I think trying to care for your mom in her old age is. going to be torture for you. Just, you've painted quite a picture here. And I can just see you jumping through hoops and bending over backwards and spending all of your waking hours and also probably

a lot of your sleeping ones, making sure that she is okay. I'm afraid that the person is going to be the most harm by that obligation is you. Plus, I think you might just be rewarding and reinforcing the manipulation if your mom is hoping that you're just going to save her in this way every time. Yes. And there's also a pattern of other people stepping in and saving mom, right? Like even now, she's living with her mother because she struggles financially. I mean, again, this theme of responsibility and who gets to take care of whom just keeps coming up again and again. Now, I say all of that, but I also understand that your mom is deeply unwell. She's out of control. She's putting herself at serious risk, and that is tragic. And again, we can have empathy for that. But having empathy

for your mom does not mean that you need to be the one to save her. Certainly not at your own expense. So Dr. Margolis's main insight, surprise, surprise, is that you need extremely strong boundaries with a person like this. And it is so hard and it is so uncomfortable. It's incredibly painful. I mean, this isn't even my mom, Jordan, and it's hard for me to think about what might happen to her one day. Yeah.

But you have painted a vivid picture of, frankly, a dangerous, hurtful, manipulative woman on multiple levels. And the only reasonable option I see here is to protect yourself from her. I agree completely, but let's also remember that forgiveness doesn't mean allowing and endorsing certain behavior, right? So she can forgive her mom for being who she is and also maintain these boundaries, keep her distance, hold her mom accountable. Forgiveness and boundaries, not mutually exclusive. Yeah, that's a very good point. And Dr. Margolis actually dropped another banger on us here too.

she pointed out that there's a difference between caring about someone and caring on behalf of someone. So caring about your mom might look like I really don't want my mom to become homeless or get hurt one day. I understand that she's in pain. I would be devastated if she ended up in trouble. But I can feel that and I can maintain my boundaries in order to protect myself. Maybe I'll emotionally support her from a distance, but getting involved is going to compromise me. So I just can't do that. Caring on behalf of your mom would be, I really don't want my mom to end up in any kind of trouble.

So I'm going to change my behavior and reorganize my life and take on the work that she should be doing in order to manage her outcomes and her experience. These are two vastly different models of caring. This is why you need good boundaries to stay out of the second type. For sure. Yeah, type two caring, no bueno. No. No. Type one caring, que Bonito.

Ah, yes. the K-bonito spectrum of emotional caretaking. How could I forget? Trademark, copyright, et cetera, et cetera. Candidly, my take on whether you owe it to your mom to save or support her is hell no. This woman harmed you egregiously, aggressively, unapologetically, on so many levels. Yes, she's mentally ill and that's tragic. That complicates the picture for sure, but that doesn't mean she isn't responsible for her behavior at all, for at least trying to take care of herself. No, and it definitely doesn't mean that what she did to you wasn't very impactful, and that matters to. Exactly. So I have to wonder what makes you think you owe her very much.

Other than the programming, she's probably instilled in you to prioritize her whims and moods and problems and music videos. You mentioned that you struggle with OCD and depression. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, I'm pretty amazed that you're functioning as well as you are. It's quite incredible. By the way, Dr. Margolis had an interesting insight about OCD specifically. OCD is often about control, okay? She wondered whether this question about whether to take care of your mom is also about wanting to maybe control some of her chaos, maybe wanting to control some of the anxiety you feel. The depression is meaningful too. We talked about this on the show a bunch, how depression can be a defense against feeling certain emotions.

It can numb you. So Dr. Margolis had an interesting question. Is it possible that taking care of your mom might also be a form of avoidance, a way to stave off all the things you'd have to feel if you acknowledge that? that you can't save your mom and you just took a healthy step back. It's almost like if you feel guilty that on some level that keeps you engaged with mom, it keeps you connected to some kind of hope for her. It might in your mind prevent these tragic outcomes that you're so afraid will come to pass. But ultimately, Dr. Margul has helped us see that all of that just means that the guilt

is probably protecting you from having to feel some very important grief about your mom right now. Right. I mean, for one thing, she's grieving the mother. she never had and she's probably grieving parts of her childhood that were lost in this abusive dynamic. I would also say she's probably grieving parts of herself that exist because of this childhood. The trauma, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, even this extreme sense of obligation. To quote Dr. McGillis one more time here, we have to grieve what has been and what will never be. Yeah, man, that is absolutely true. And it can be very painful.

But as we talk about all the time, you can't get to what's on the other side without moving through. that grief. What's on the other side is either a boundary to relationship with your mother or no contact at all. But on a very practical level, I would definitely try to figure out somewhere else to live. Because living in a house with your unstable, dangerous wacadoodle mom with her hundred tarot decks and stacks of parking tickets. By the way, if you're psychic, can you not avoid a parking ticket? They're going to get me a parking ticket. Maybe I park somewhere else. Like, that's all the evidence you need that you're not psychic. Good point. Come on, man. Anyway, the questionable woman who made your mom kind of kooky in the first place, right? She also lives there. I mean, this is not a

healthy living arrangement for Christa. No, it's not. You need distance from these ladies, physically, emotionally, you need to build a life that is safe, that is truly your own. So your big project right now is putting together a plan and taking small steps every single day to get back on your feet and become independent. That would be a game changer. You can find other roommates, okay? You can roll the dice on just about anybody and it's going to be a better living situation, okay? I hope you get there one day soon. I hope you find some peace with your mom's situation, and that'll mean bearing a great deal of sadness along the way. But hey, the reward for bearing that sadness is freedom, clarity, integrity. You deserve all that too. Sending you a big hug and wishing you the best.

Big thanks, as always, to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at Dr. Aaron Margollis.com. That's DR. Aaron Margolis.com. Okay, what's next? Hey guys, I know you talk a lot about conspiracy theories, how to assess them, and how to talk to people who have fallen for them. But I think there also needs to be a distinction made for different kinds of conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theory is a broad category, and if we compare the normal low-information voter to quote-unquote conspiracy theorists, particularly in the political arena, the conspiracy theorists are often close to correct several years later.

For example, the flat earth theory is not the same as people 20 years ago forecasting a cashless society. It used to be crazy to think that our webcam or our phone could spy on us, and now that's accepted by pretty much everyone. Past so-called conspiracy theories often turn out to be true and are basically common knowledge. I realize I'm not talking about the dark side of the moon or lizard people. I just want people to remain curious about how things work or how they might pan out when the media often labels them as conspiracy. I think you should keep up your take on conspiratorial thinking, but like you did with your view of the lab leak hypothesis,

I would put more nuance on it and focus on the crazier conspiracies while still allowing space for listeners to remain curious. Signed, let's not get hazy about the difference between conspiracy and plain crazy. Well, good point. I think you're on to something fair and important here. So first off, obviously there are different kinds

of quote unquote conspiracy theories, the ones you're open to entertaining are less what I would call conspiracy theories and more like wild and speculative but still plausible predictions. They might turn out to be wrong, but they're not just totally bad shit crazy. They're grounded in some kind of reasonable assumption. So we could debate whether this sci-fi type stuff is true conspiracy theory or just speculation about the future. Whereas if you said one day there will be a cashless society because the world is actually run by tech overlords who want to control the money supply and monitor our every transaction, that starts to become a different thing. Obviously, that has more shades of conspiratorial thinking, because now there's this explanation for

the prediction, and the explanation hinges on some secretive, nefarious, nebulous plan, which again might or might not be true, but it's definitely more conspiratorial. But for me, the more useful distinction is why people come to these conclusions. I'm less worried and who ends up being right about a given conspiracy theory and more interested in why people think these things and how they arrive at those beliefs. And we've done shows on this stuff before, right? If somebody who designed spy tech said,

hey, these cameras and mics can be triggered remotely and record data to upload, that is far more credible than a guy in a basement with a tinfoil hat and zero tech experience who thinks that his toothbrush wants to alter his DNA or whatever. And I know that's kind of a cartoonish example, but you see what I'm getting at and there's many examples of this.

I do. I do hate that you brought a toothbrush into this, but yes, I see your point. Sorry, Gabe. I know you love your brainwave reading sonic hair. As do I. I just don't think electric toothbrushes need any bad press. I mean, not after what they've done for our civilization. You know, like show a little respect, huh? Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. But also, congrats on sounding like the craziest person in this segment. Point is, when it comes to evaluating conspiracy theories and the people who believe them, the process matters more than results. Like they say, a broken clock is right twice a day. So I agree that somebody saying the earth is flat is a different category of kook. Sorry to those who believe it, by the way, and I'm

going to get emails about this. It's a different category of person from somebody who thinks that the government will eventually migrate us to a cashless society so they can monitor transactions. Obviously, because one of those ignores clear, well-established, observable science, and the other is a prediction that, while speculative, is rooted in plausible facts. but also because it matters whether the person believes in the cashless conspiracy because of data analytics, anti-money laundering, anti-terrorism, behavior modification, consumer trends, etc., or whether they think it's because, I don't know, the Jews who control the banking system are secretly lizard people and the global elites who run the tech world are building a new world order

based on digital espionage and something, something mind control, Mark of the Beast, digital panopticon, you fill in the rest. So that's my take. The process. of thinking and the basis for belief matter a lot here, much more than the details of the conspiracy itself. That's a crucial standard to hold when you engage with conspiratorial people, but also as you decide what to believe yourself. Hope you all enjoyed the show today. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Cashmere Hill on Face Recognition Technology. Speaking of conspiracies, if you haven't done so yet, that will fill your flute, regardless of what side of the conspiratorial cashless coin you

find yourself on. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. This is the circle of people I know like and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's 100% free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not going to make you look like a jerk. And you can find it for free on the thinkific platform at six minute networking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, people. Build those relationships before you need them. Once again, for free at six minute networking.com. Also our newsletter over there at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news.

Wisdom in your inbox once a week. 900 plus back episodes, we dissect and bring out the takeaways, Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast 1. team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I ain't your lawyer, do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature and does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found

episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Yasmin Muhammad, who grew up under the tyranny of radical Islam. This religion forces people to just get stuck in time. It is the root of so many of the evils that are happening in these countries. This is why we can't progress.

We always hear about how the caliphate is coming, how Islam will rule the world, how Muslims will get rid of the infidels, we're going to kill off all the Jews, and Muslims are going to control this whole world. And the whole world will go back to Allah the way it should be. Everybody on the planet will be praying to Allah. These people are indoctrinated into a belief system

that turns them into monsters. It erases their humanity, it tells them your basic humanity and what you believe to be right and wrong, you must ignore, and you must follow what you are told to do. This is happening in your backyard, and if you don't care about what's happening in Afghanistan

or what's happening in Pakistan, what's happening with Saudi Arabia, then care about what's happening on your own soil, at least. Terrorism is the art of fear, and the only way to defeat terrorism, is to not be afraid. In the face of these people that are telling you, you are not allowed to have free expression, you are not allowed to have free speech, you are not allowed to have an opinion, you say, okay, watch this, watch my opinion, watch my free expression, express itself.

For more about Yasmin's harrowing story and her escape, check out episode 748 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you'll like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast, focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think,

the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use. in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.