The Jordan Harbinger Show - 960: Amir Levine | Finding and Keeping Love with Attachment Science

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

What are attachment styles, and how can we understand them to find and keep love? Attached author Amir Levine is here to share what the science has to say! What We Discuss with Amir Levine: The four attachment styles: secure, anxious, avoidant, and anxious-avoidant.  The influence genetics, environment, and upbringing have on these attachment styles. How people tend to handle relationships based on their attachment style. How the development of attachment styles has evolved over time. What the dependency paradox is and how we can navigate it per our attachment style. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/960  This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals  Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. It's a different way of looking at the world and understanding relationships. You really have to understand that the well-being of the other person is your well-being.

Because we're basically, once we get attached, we're like one physiological unit. And there are studies that show that people have more secure attachment. If they get a cut, it would heal faster. It really affects our very basic physiology because we're very social.

and it's very, very important. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with the variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional arms dealer, rocket scientist, astronaut, music mogul,

or legendary Hollywood actors. and if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today's guest, Amir Levine is a psychiatrist and neuroscientist. He's also the director of the Levine Epigenetics and Molecular Neuroscience Lab at Columbia University, lab named after yourself. Not bad. We're talking about attachment styles, namely secure, anxious, and avoidant. We've all got our own. We've probably dated or even married somebody with a style of attachment that meshes well or does not mesh well with our own. And we've all seen what happens when you go down that road. Today, we'll explore these attachment styles, what they mean, how each of these attachment styles tends to behave inside relationships. We'll also dive into what creates these styles in the first place, how they're formed, how we can manage our own and meet the needs of our partners and children and more. This is an episode that gives us a

a scientific way to view our own behavior and that of others. And I love stuff like this. I think it's something we can apply right away to get a better understanding of ourselves and those around us, and you really can't beat that. All right, here we go with Amir Levine. Reading your book attached, which we'll link in the show knows, it was pretty eye-opening because it's one of those things that you read,

then you think about every ex-girlfriend or partner or whatever that you've ever had, and you try and fit them into a category or two. I'd love to discuss each of these and then maybe let our listeners have somewhat of a similar experience. Yeah, I actually had the same experience when I first came across this material. Granted, when I came across it, it wasn't something that was meant for the public to read.

It was just in research papers, and I came across it by accident. But at the time, I was going through a breakup, and it was like an eye-opening experience. It was like, whoa. Like, now I understand everything. I have a completely different understanding of what happened in that relationship and why we broke up and went on in that relationship.

And it really made a lot more sense for me. So I agree. And I think I didn't know it at a time when we wrote the book, but I was able to capture that like, well, this is like a really transformative piece of knowledge, a scientific knowledge. I know attachment theory applies to parenting too. In fact, that's where I heard about it at first. and I wasn't even sure if your book was about romantic attachment or relationships or parenting, but I want to just clarify here we're focusing on romantic relationships here,

because that parenting thing is a whole different book that you may have already written for all I know. So the short answer is yes, it does really focus on romantic relationships, but what I found over time that these attachment styles also really play out in all of our close relationships. So be it with friends, with our significant others, even in the workplace. And I'm actually now in the process of finishing writing another book of how these attachments styles play out in different aspects of life and even more so what you can do to become more secure because there's different attachment styles. And really, the people who are the most secure, you only have the best lives.

It's almost like they have a sixth talent of how to get along with other people. how to be good in relationships. So I've become really fascinated with the secures of this world and how they operate and how their mind works. And that's kind of like what I've been doing since I wrote the book. But in Attach, we did focus on romantic relationships. And that was plenty at the time. And the original research also focused more.

What they did is they took some of this understanding of attachment from the way that parents interact with children. And then they asked themselves, Would that also apply for romantic relationships? Does that neurocircuitary that make us attach to another human being, be as a child, would also apply for how we attach to an adult in a romantic relationship? And that seminal study that they did at Hazen and Shaver in 1987, that's when this whole adult attachment field started,

found out that it does really apply for adult relationships too. So if the parent-child relationships is where sort of attachment theory started, but it also applies to romantic relationships, does it follow that our romantic relationship attachment style comes from the way we were parented, or is that not necessarily true? So that's kind of like the million-dollar question, right? Okay. I think we do have some answers, and I think the short answer, it's not exactly. The truth is a little bit more nuanced, and in a way it's very hopeful that it's nuanced.

we can and do change our attachment styles throughout our life. And oftentimes the attachment styles that people have in childhood is not necessarily the same attachment style that they will have as in adulthood. And I personally as a therapist find it very promising because it is a malleable sort of neurosurcuitary. It is a part of our social brain is much more malleable than we think it is. And so there's a lot of hope there for change and becoming better and sort of improving your life and improving your relationships.

And that's what really attracted me to this field so much. As a therapist, as a psychiatrist, I can really find ways to make a change. So make a difference in people's lives. But the basic premise is there. It's basically a safety system. The attachment system is basically a safety system. It's how we feel safe in the world. People often think we'll feel safe if we have a lot of money in the bank, or if we have a big house.

But that's not how our emotional brain feels safe exactly, because all these things didn't exist when our emotional brain was formed. We feel safe through our close connections. That's the basics of attachment, really. There's an interesting point that you mentioned here, which is when our emotional brain was formed, and I assume you mean like evolved in humans, right? Right. That big houses or finances or whatever didn't exist, so it must come from social relationships.

that is kind of one of those foundational principles of happiness, right, where people think, I'm going to be happy when I have a big house, when I have money, and then the big reveal is that they're looking for status and admiration or something, which really is kind of another word for positive social interactions with others, right? So like all of these accoutrements of a successful person, whether it's a jet or a certain kind of clothing or whatever it is, really just comes down to,

how do I feel other people feel about me? Or how do I think other people feel about me? So that actually makes a lot of sense. And then at the root of everything is, do I feel secure in my place in my social circle or my family circle? And if I don't, then no house, no car, no jet, no clothes, no shoes, no phone, whatever, jewelry,

is ever going to get me there because it's like the wrong layer. I'm focusing on the wrong layer of stuff. You can get all that stuff, but if you still have that like anxious, avoidant, whatever attachment style, you're just putting lipstick on the pig, right? I think so, because the way that it works is, if anything, sometimes when you have a lot of money,

then there's a question, are these people interacting with me because I have all these resources? So it gets worse. And then the genuineness of the relationship is being questioned, and that gets in the way of the bond of the closeness. because really we feel safe when we feel close to people that we can count on. It's so basic and so simple. And people lose sight of that and people think, oh, yes, if I have all these resources,

I'll feel safer and I'll feel happier. But that's not how we feel happy. The attachment styles is more about how sensitive are we to potential danger. And then also how comfortable would feel with intimacy and closeness. So if we're both not very sensitive to danger, and by danger, I mean anything that can come in the way of the availability of the other person. So like another person. It's a very specific lingo. Like a mate.

Yeah, the person that we're close to. That's how we feel safe. The mate or your child or a close friend. We all have the safest system in the back of our head and it's working all the time. We have this idea where our loved ones are and that there. pretty much okay. But if I were to tell you right now that, I don't know, some calamity happened where your loved ones are, be it your parents, be it even a close friend, like, you would have a very difficult time continuing this interview. You'd have to stop and then text them and make sure

that they're okay. Yeah. And then you'll be able to sort of resume it, albeit a little bit more unsettled, but you'll be able to go back. So that's the attachment system at work. It's kind of like, I know where my loved ones are and I know that they're safe. And this way, that gives me the peace of mind to explore, to continue to do this interview for a child to play with toys, but for adults, to parent, to be friend, to work. That's the basics that we need to be able to explore the world. We need that safety net. And that safety net, it's a social slash attachment safety net. And it's all the time in the back of our head, are we safe? It's like a radar system. So if the Raider system is very, very sensitive and you like a lot of closeness, then you have an anxious

attachment system. You're like, whoa, why are they calling me back? You see everything. And the research shows that these people have really a sixth sense for detecting danger, and they're oftentimes right. So it's not that they're not right. They're right. They're just like a very sensitive to detecting danger.

So that's the anxious attachment. These are people with anxious attachment style, correct? Yes. Okay. I was going to say we should go over these because you mentioned before the secures among us and people probably like, what does that mean? That's what you're researching now. So maybe we pause on the anxious thing. We should come back to that because that's really interesting. But let's go over the attachment styles, which I probably should have done at the top of the show. I know. And then we'll be able to break each one down and dive deeper into their drawbacks and their superpowers. Because even the ones that sound kind of bad, like you just sort of hinted at, there's got to be a reason that it was beneficial at some point. Otherwise people wouldn't have evolved. Hands down. Definitely. Hands down. So even before we go over that, I think it's very important to say you're spot on. These are not pathologies. And I've seen on TikTok and on social media, it's like people refer to avoidance or anxious as like something unhealthy. It's not about health or disease. The whole attachment field, which is one of the reasons why I like it so much, it actually comes from developmental neuroscience, developmental psychology, and social psychology. So it didn't from the medical model. It rose from a research background. So it doesn't really occupy itself with, is it healthy or unhealthy? Which I really like. It really asks more, is it working for you or is it not

working for you? Is it effective or is it ineffective? And I find that it's a much more useful way to look at things in relationships rather than healthy or disease. And the truth of the matter is that these attachment cells are very prevalent in the population. There's the anxious, avoidant, and secure. And we're not exactly sure about the rate in the population, but the original study found that there's about 54% secure, 25% avoidant, and about 20% anxious. And a very, very small fragment are anxious and avoidant. But no one's saying that 20% or 25% of the population are having illness. Right. Okay. You're right also that there's a certain advantage, and I'm going to get to that. But first I'll explain what these different attachment styles are.

Yeah, please do. So basically we already started to talk about it. It really is measured along two domains, how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness, and then at the same time also how sensitive we are to potential danger in their relationship. And danger, as I said before, it's about how available is this other person to me. So if we love closeness, but also we don't have a very sensitive radar, a lot of potential danger goes over. our head and we won't even notice it, then we're secure. We have a secure attachment. We get along very easily with people. Things don't bother us that much, but we also love to be close. As much

closest as you want, you'll get, basically. So that's secure. And then anxious, they also love closeness. They love, love, love to be close, but they have a very sensitive radar. And if they feel that even a slate or the person all of a sudden doesn't come home or they come home and then like make a little bit of a face because they had a hard day. And it's like, what's wrong? What's wrong? They see things and it's hard for them not to see things. And the research shows that they actually have a sixth sense for identifying danger. So maybe with someone secure, you could have an affair and they'll never notice it. That will never fly with someone anxious. They'll notice it right away. So there's advantages and disadvantages. And sometimes they overshoot.

or that he said of seeing, right. That's what I was going to say. It's like the anxious person is like, aha, I was right about the affair. Yeah, but you were wrong the other 40 times you thought I was having an affair and I wasn't. I was just like, really, I was working late. And it seems like, and I'm sure we'll get to this,

it seems like there's a point at which somebody who is anxious and constantly like, you're doing something wrong, also kind of creates a self-fulfilling prophecy because they're driving someone away by constantly doing things like that. but that I'm getting cart before the horse here, I think. No, no, you're not.

I'm glad I like, because this is exactly why I love attachment, and I love this field so much. There are things that you can do to really pacify that neurocircuitary. And it's much easier than people think. Oftentimes, people do get into, like, why are you constantly asking me? Why are you doing this? And why are you doing that? You're driving me away. And the anxious person feels really bad for doing it.

And they think, well, maybe I'm too dependent. I'm too needy. and too sensitive all the while, they have this neurocircuitary that's very sensitive, and all the while, there are actually simple things that people can do to pacify that biology and you're just going to like to understand the logic of attachment. It's slightly different. It's not an analytical logic. It's a much more fundamental survival logic. So if you understand it, then you know how to pacify it. So for example, if you're late all the time from work, You don't just ignore your partner when they're like asking you what's happening, but you find ways to reassure them.

Preemptively, that's why I think I used to say you have to find ways to turn out small flames before they become forest fires. That's kind of the way to do it. Now, researching more how secure people do it, they don't even let a small flame come into place. They will FaceTime them. Hey, I'm on work. What's happening? I miss you. You don't even need a lot of reassure.

Attachment is so much easier to seeing kids, but it's the same system. You don't wait until your child is super tired before we put them to sleep because it's not going to be easy when you wait until then. But you don't wait until they're super hungry before you feed them because you're going to pay for that if you're going to do that. It's the same thing with adults. It's the exact same thing. I mean, you definitely shouldn't wait until I'm super hungry before you feed me either. I get it. I understand that. Exactly. The anxious thing is interesting because I feel like everybody has had an anxious partner at some point in their life, depending on how much dating they did before they got married. And maybe you're married to the anxious person or maybe it was just like a girl or a guy you dated in high school.

Because actually, that's a really good question here in my humble opinion. Are kids usually anxious? Because I feel like your first relationship, you don't know what's going on. And I feel like all my friends and all my girlfriends and myself were all. sort of anxious attachment style in like ninth grade. You know, you want to know what your girlfriend's doing. And if she's not hanging out with you, who is she with? And what do they do?

You know, and then I grew out of that crap because I didn't, it stopped bugging me. But man, ninth, 10th grade, it was like my life revolved around making sure that I wasn't left out of things. Right. So I do think that people do shift. Like it sounded like you shifted your attachment style, right? Yeah. You definitely sounded like you became more secure.

He's like, no, you know what? It's not worth it. So that's a good example of how, but you have to understand that also the research shows that sometimes people actually become more anxious. And I think it also depends on your life experiences. If you think about it, we are extremely, extremely social. Human beings are like these uber social species. We're not very strong in terms of like our bodies are not particularly strong compared to other animals. We're not exactly agile.

But what we lack for in those departments, we actually make up for in our collaboration. ability. And that's why we're so successful as species because we can collaborate. We have this intelligence and we can speak to each other and collaborate in ways that other animals can. So it actually makes sense that we wouldn't be stuck in just one particular behavioral mode without checking out what's happening in our environment and seeing, oh, actually, and that's also a way to think about attachment style. It's also called a working model. It's a set of beliefs and ideas about the world, but they're subject to change. If the world changes, if your environment changes, and you say, actually, things are not so dangerous. And actually, people like me, and I do belong,

and people are not leaving me out so much. And I can let my guard down. I don't have to worry about this so much. You change your attachment style, which is what you just described. What's the difference, I guess, between an attachment style in a mood sometimes, right? Because every husband, every wife, gets anxious sometimes, you know, they're tired, they're dealing with something else, and there's this kind of like anxious mood that happens. Is attachment style something where it's like, this is your default, even when you're well rested, even when you're fed, even when everything else is going? If you're still anxious, that's your attachment style. Is that kind of how this works? I think you have a certain set point, and that's not going to change entirely. So you may still

have very sensitive radar for danger, but if the environment is very safe, then let's say you're, it's like a border patrol. You're being positioned in a border patrol between Switzerland and France. Well, guess what? You're not going to be very vigilant because it's very safe there. Very few things are going to happen. But if you're placed in a border patrol on a place where there's potentially a lot of tumultuous activity or illegal activity, then you're going to be a lot more vigilant. So I think about it more, you have a certain baseline of a radar. It's calibrated into high or low, but it depends on which environment you set yourself in. That's how I see it. Yeah, okay. That actually makes quite a bit of sense. I do like the radar analogy. And if you're

looking for a troubled border, may I suggest North Korea? That's like one of the most troubled borders, right? Oh, exactly. And throw that as your example next time. So secure attachment style, kind of chill, not worried about it, anxious, not chill, not chill. super worried about it, but has a sixth sense for picking out danger or threats to the relationship. And then there's avoidant. What is that? How does that sort of fit in here? Because avoidant seems like maybe they feel the anxious bit of it, but then they just

ignore it completely instead of acting on it? I don't know. So avoidant, I mean, that's a good point. I think there's two domains that I said initially. It's about how sensitive of a radar do you have for danger, but also how comfortable the feel with intimacy and closeness. And avoidance just don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness or too much intimacy. I see.

They just don't. They don't like it. And they put a lot of emphasis on self-reliance, about independence, about doing things on their own and pushing through. And so for people who are not avoidant, it's really hard to grasp that. It's like, seriously, something bad happened to you and you're not going to share it with someone? Right.

You're just going to sort of keep it all to yourself and try to deal with it yourself. Yes, that's exactly what an avoidant is. And sometimes sharing with others actually doesn't make it better for them. They don't feel better about it. They feel they're actually exposed. They feel uncomfortable with all that closeness. They just get out of it. I see.

Right. So secure is kind of like, I'm cool with intimacy. Little threats don't bother me. Anxious. I'm cool with intimacy. Little threats do bother me. Avoidant is just like, no thanks. No intimacy for me.

I'm just going to be over here pretending to be too busy to have a relationship. or whatever. They like intimacy, but from afar, right? Or just... Isn't that the... Intimacy, but not, you know, close or intimate or anything. Got it. Very clear. Yeah, I mean, they like it, but they always have little ways of doing it, you know? It's like, okay, we're going to sleep. Maybe we'll sleep in separate beds. Or sometimes they like a lot of, like, intimacy, like, the changes, or they will walk ahead of you when you're on vacation, because it's too close to walk one next to each other. Oh, my God.

They have a lot of different ways in which to create more distance. But it's almost like, I don't like to say, I used to give this analogy that they're like, think about the difference like a cat, they don't like to. But then I actually found out that some cats really love closeness a lot. And some cats don't. And I really think it's the same also. Even within cats and within dogs, you'll see these different attachment styles, I think, about how much they prefer closeness or distance.

Even I can see it with my dog. He doesn't like too much closeness. And you can see it on social media. Some of those dogs are literally like lying on your face. My dog is always at the edge of the bed. So he's still next to me, but he's always at the edge of the bed facing away. So he needs closeness, but with some distance. That's kind of like more of the avoidance.

That's really funny. Okay. So, and I touched on this earlier. I was going to ask if we developed these based on how we're raised by our parents. And the answer is maybe, but we're not 100% sure, right? I think it really depends on both our environment and our relationships. So definitely some echoes to our initial relationships with our parents, but then also some researchers in the Tasman believe that a lot of it changes in adolescence. Okay. Because that's a time when we shift

our focus from our primary relationships with our family and all of a sudden our peers become very important to us. So all of a sudden, we have an opportunity. to change that working model. We have a new opportunity to perform close relationships, and maybe they're very different. Maybe we're at a chaotic relationship at home, but all of a sudden, we have best friends in school that are really amazing and they show up for us and are very secure, and especially in adolescence because the adolescent brain is very malleable. So people believe that an adolescent brain, the adolescence is a time when you can shift a lot of your attachment. But really throughout life, and it depends on our life experiences, that's where my part comes in,

that's why I love to work in this paradigm as a therapist because you can really help people ship their working models, i.e. their attachment system. But I also have to say that I think it's also partially genetic. Oh, interesting. Hypervigilance, I think, is somewhat genetic. And certainly I think how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness, I think is also genetic.

That's fascinating. I mean, I guess it makes sense because a lot of stuff's genetic. but I guess I just would have figured that it would have always be environment. I don't know. I think a lot of the things we think about it more is gene environment interaction. And who knows? Maybe it's also environment in terms of what's the environment in utero in the womb that you've had. Right, okay.

Is that epigenetics when it's the environment interacting with genes? I'm always confused by that. No, it is epigenetic. That's how environment affects gene expression. I see. By epigenetic mechanisms. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Amir Levine. We'll be right back.

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Six minute today is all it takes, and many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to that course. So come on, join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six minute networking.com. Now, back to Amir Levine. For some reason, that stuff always gets a little fuzzy around the edges,

probably because there's so much new and misinformation about that kind of field that sometimes I'm not sure if I'm just parroting some crap from a quack on Instagram or something from a book. No, no, you're not. It just happens to me exactly the area of research that I do in my lab. And so you're completely correct. It is epigenetics.

Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that. Don't have to edit that out now. All right. So I love this stuff because it seems like understanding attachment styles will allow us to, and I'm putting this in air quotes because it's not really this, but predict how people will likely behave inside relationships. And I think we all kind of know this intuitively, right?

if you've dated a few anxious people, like I'll just say for my own experience, you date an anxious gal in ninth grade, okay, you see it again in college, you recognize it a little sooner and you're like, oh, you haven't grown out of this yet. And then when you're dating in your 30s and you see it again, at least as far as I was concerned, I was like, oh, no thanks. I can't do this again. I did this. I'm not saying you're going to act like my high school girlfriend. I'm not saying you're going to act like my college girlfriend, but I'm getting a whiff of like, why didn't you text me when you got home? I just met you today. That's a little early for the, you know, I'm like,

and then you give them one more chance and it's like, oh, this is one of those people where like, they want me to turn the find my iPhone thing on on our third date so they know where I am at all times. I'm good. This isn't going to work. So this kind of stuff is really useful. We didn't have names for it back then.

You know, we got our first sort of clinical terminology from wedding crashers, right? Stage 5 Klinger. And that was it. But we can also understand our own actions. as well. If right now someone listening is going, oh, I have an anxious attachment style, or someone's going, oh, I have a secure attachment style, but my husband has an anxious attachment style, okay, I got to read this book because now I need to find out what other things overlap

and make sense and what other things have I not seen. That's why I like this kind of stuff. Yeah, because it really gives you a blueprint. I'll talk about myself. It gave me a blueprint that I didn't have at the time. The way I came across this information is I was doing my child and adolescent residency. I'm both an adult and a child and adolescent psychiatrist. I were in this clinic. It was a therapeutic nursery where we treated mothers with PTSD and their toddlers. And oftentimes what would happen, the toddler would yell because toddlers do. And the mother would have PTSD symptoms and she'll back away and then they'll actually yell more because she's backing away. And that's basic attachment. So we used attachment principles to help secure the relationship

between the mother and the child. And it was so powerful and so effective that I became so curious that I did something you don't really have time to do when you're a resident. They gave you this long reading list and you never really read it. I went and I read every single thing in that reading list.

And that's where I came across this whole field of adult attachment. I was blown away. We've never been taught that in any clinical setting. It was only something that people knew in social psychology. And I'm like, this really explains... And at that time, I was going through a breakup.

And it really explained to me what I was going through because in my mind, I was thinking, I met this person and we really got along. And when I met someone and we got along, I was thinking, oh, I started to think about a future together, doing stuff together, more commitment. But then the person told me, no, no, no, when I meet someone and I get along with them, I want to move away across the country. Wow, avoidant to the max. Yeah, exactly.

And that didn't make sense to me. like, what's wrong? So the only way I could explain it to myself before I came across this information is that they don't love me. If they love me more, it's like that love always comes in the same shape and form

and it's just an intensity thing. And if this person loved me more, then things would have worked out, but I'm not good enough, I'm not important enough, which is a little bit of an anxious thing. Sure. And so that's why they don't want to be with me,

but I didn't know any better. And that's one of the myths that if you don't know these signs, you think that everyone is capable of the same amount of love, which is not true. I see. That's not what the science finds. So to me, that was such a revelation to discover, yes, this person is avoidant, and it doesn't make me feel good.

And I don't like that. Yeah. It helped me then move on eventually. And then when I was looking, it helped me find someone more secure. I could recognize it really early on. It was like, you know what? That's not for me. Sorry.

For you, maybe the anxious. I can deal with the anxious more easily. The avoidance is harder for me. Honestly, the avoidance sounds really hard. I don't think I've ever really, I shouldn't say ever. I think I just had a few dates with those people. And then they were like, I'm really busy with work. I'll call you in a month.

I've had a couple of things go that way. And I'm like, but we got along super well. Our friend introduced us because you were looking to date somebody. You met me, we clicked. We had three really awesome dates. And now suddenly you don't have time to see me at all anymore, even though I live walking distance from your house. I remember being like really confused by that.

And now that I think about it though, when I think about like other conversations I had with this particular woman, every relationship for her she said ended because she got busy with work. And I was like, oh, you must have a really busy job. And then when it happened to me, I was like, wait a second, wait a minute. It really does sound like the person you met that said, oh, I really like you. I never want to see you again. I'm going to move to California or whatever. Exactly. That is bizarre behavior, but people, I guarantee you there's a lot of people listening right now

who are like, oh, I do that. Whenever I like somebody, I just like accept a job posting in Afghanistan and then leave. Yeah, no, it's very scary. For them, the feeling of closeness is not something that comes easy. And I like to say the way I think about people that are avoidant, the easiest analogy is to say it's like someone who's a straight cat. You can't just like force them. You have to leave out the milk and have them come on their time. on their dime when they are ready to accept it and they, or maybe it's just like to tame a wild animal. It's like slowly, slowly have to have them come and sort of make them feel a little bit safer and always give them their distance so they can actually slowly, slowly get close to you

again on their time. Oh, God, that sounds exhausting though. And you did mention that there's three to five percent of the population that's an anxious avoidant combination. How does that work? Because if If you're anxious, you're kind of constantly wanting to check in on somebody because you're hypervigilant, but then, I don't know, once you check in on them, you retreat. Well, how does that look in practice? Yeah. So it's very difficult. Really, what people think is that oftentimes they're called the fearful avoidance or in short, fearfuls.

Okay. So what people really believe is that this is really is potentially a byproduct of some trauma in the past. So what happens is you crave that closeness, but you also. so afraid of other people hurting you. So you crave it and you crave it. But when you get close to someone, you feel very uncomfortable and you feel danger. Just closeness by itself means danger. And then you retreat and you try to come close and then you retreat. And it's very, very frustrating. It can be very, very painful for people to manage these two. Because people who are like, they're also called dismissive avoidance. People are like straight avoidance. They're like, oh, I don't need anyone.

I'm better off on my own. I can do everything. myself, why should I need anyone? If I meet someone, that's fine, but I don't really want them, or I want someone, but I don't really need them. But fearful avoidance are like, no, I really want someone. But when I find myself together with someone, I feel very unsettled and scared and hurt. That makes me want to text my wife. I love you right now. I'm going to do that real quick. I don't know why, but just in case, just in case. She's responding. That's funny. I mean, you know, that never hurts, man. Life pro. Of course.

Text or significant other whenever it occurs to you that are never going to mind. First of all, I think that goes along with also I love thanking and my significant other a lot. For even the littlest things, we thank each other all the time. And I love apologizing. I know people like, why should I apologize? I think apologizing is the best thing, best invention ever. But not just like a dismissive apology, really a heartfelt apology because that sort of brings us to understanding with the secrets, some of the secrets of attachments,

and if you understand attachment, how you can tweak your relationships and make them better, if you understand what the role of relationships are, that they are actually to make us safe, to make us feel safe, and that we feel safe through others, then that really opens your world to a completely new way of looking at relationships. So it really means that you have this responsibility

for the well-being of the other person, and they have the responsibility for your well-being. And once you really take that on, that's a game changer in my mind. Yeah, that's a pretty insightful little glimpse into it. I like that concept. I like the thinking about that that way. But it only really makes sense in a sort of a secure attachment style relationship, right? Because I feel like if you're a void and if you think, oh, I need to have the other

person's well-being, that's got to just be a terrifying thought that you're responsible in some part for other people's well-being because you're not even like doing a good job with yourself at that point. You're so spot on. That's exactly the thing they're most. afraid of. It's like, why should I be responsible for these other person's well-being? Yeah. We are all independent and self-sufficient and they should look after themselves and I should, that's the motto of someone who's avoidant. But what you really convince them, what you show them

in treatment is that actually taking care of that attachment system, it's a very simple system. It doesn't require that much. It doesn't require like being attached to hip all the time. That's what they're afraid of. If anything, like I told you, initially, it's like those little tweaks if you preemptively text. You preemptively stay, you keep the system quiet. It's a physiological system. It wants to find homeostasis, which is like a very fancy word for, it just wants balance. And that's what avoidance don't know how to do, but you teach them how to sort of help reach balance in their relationship in their lives. And it's much easier than they think. And it requires a lot less time. And actually, paradoxically, it gives them more time.

because when your spouse feels that you have your back, they're not going to think about your old day. They're not going to like, why you're not home. They're going to be busy doing their own thing. That's a dependency paradox. In order to become independent, we have to find someone that we can trust and be dependent on. And then we don't think about them.

It's like your children, if they know that you're around, they're like, oh, who cares about you? Let me play with a game. And every once in a while, they check to see where you are. But they don't really care. But if something happens and they become like activated, forget about it. They're not going to be interested in playing. They're like, where is he?

What are they doing? Why are they not here for me? Looking at the difference in my daughter. I mean, some of my kids, they're two and four. So their attachment. I don't even know if like attachment styles are going to, of course they're not going to stay the same. My daughter, who's two is always like, where's mommy all the time? Or where's the nanny?

Where's all the time? But my son is kind of like, whatever. Can you get my slime down from the shelf? Thanks, dad. Go away. Go to your office. and work now. I'm playing with my son. It's completely different. And it's kind of funny to watch. And even looking at, oh, she's going to kill me, but whatever, my wife's attachment style

early in the relationship, she had gotten out of like kind of a kooky, crazy situation before. And I didn't really know that when we started dating because, you know, I don't want to know all the details of your previous relationship. But we would text all the time and stuff. And then I got busy and went on a trip and then got busy with some other work project. And she was like, your behavior is changing. And I remember her being like super paranoid about it and I had to be like, hey, this doesn't mean anything. I just, I was at a conference before where I had nothing to do but text you all day because I was sitting there watching speakers and now I'm back in the office. Now, of course, we've been married for a while and she's like, whatever. She doesn't need to hear

from me every day. It's fine. But it was interesting to see that, thinking about it now in practice, just this kind of stuff. Her attachment style may be molding and mine for that matter, changing over time as you realize like, oh, this person's not going anywhere. For sure. And if you think about it, if you're in a relationship with someone who's avoidant, then the truth is it really does change. Because initially, before there's a lot of closeness, they also crave, they have this dream, no, one day I'll find someone and it'll be perfect. And sometimes they don't understand. They find someone they get close to them. They don't know that they're afraid of closeness.

So what they think is more like, oh, this person is not the right one. I don't feel the love. It's withering away. I really felt very intensely initially, but now it's not, not realizing that it's the closeness. and then they change on you. So people on the receiving end of that, if it happens to you several times, it's like then you become hypervigilant

because you put yourself out there. When you're dating, you really, it's hard. Dating is hard because you do put yourself out there emotionally and you do make yourself vulnerable. You have no other choice. Then they change on you and then you're really hurt. And so she was like, what's happening? And you were like, no, it's not happening.

And then you convinced her somehow that message, you had this ability to convey to her that she's safe, and now she feels safe the way that you're describing it. I think if memory serves, I was just a little more conscious about, like, calling her on the phone when I had 10 minutes instead of texting her every 10 minutes during a day when I met watching people talk on a stage

and literally doing nothing else. And I was like, okay, she really just needs, like, a minor amount of checking in and it's fine. She wasn't like, I don't want to give the impression my wife with some sort of crazy attached person. No, but that's the key thing. It's like, that's mostly what it needs. We just found the right way to make that radar settled.

And from there on, it's not always perfect, but it's certainly much, much easier. But you were able to somehow put it together and see, she responded, you responded, and you found the right solution. But sometimes in some relationships, people don't find her with solutions or people don't even care. Like you said, you then you called more or you did something. You did something. But other people, if you were more avoidant, you were like, excuse my language, but if that, I'm not calling, I'm not texting, she should learn how to deal with it and even actually withdraw more. And that can actually start the whole snowball.

It really starts this whole chain reaction, a vicious cycle. Then they reach out more, then you withdraw more, then they reach on more, you withdraw more. That's kind of like the anxious avoidant trap. Yeah. Oh, man. I can see that becoming a really big mess. So it's no wonder that the people have the most relationship satisfaction are the secure people because there's just so much less. Drama might not be the right word because we're just talking about it's less effort for sure because you're not thinking like, oh, I better call my wife now or she's going to get mad. And then if she gets mad, then this other thing's going to happen. And then if I do this, then I don't have to think about that kind of stuff in my relationship.

But I know friends of mine that absolutely have to do that, definitely. But when you're secure, you think about it more like, oh, I'm going to call her because it's going to make her so happy. So you always are preemptively, you're a step before that. You're a step before that misery. You're just stay with happiness instead of stepping into misery. And you're always a step ahead. And that's why I love the secures in this world because they're so good in staying a step ahead. The same thing with parenting. If you're kind of like, oh, I'm not going to like them get super tired. So you stay a step ahead. It's not always easy. Obviously, it's not a perfect world and we don't always do it. But some people do it more than others. I think that's fascinating. I never thought about

it with the parenting. Yeah, I'm still working on getting my kids to go to bed at a reasonable time. I mean, that's always been challenging. That's always a challenge. Yeah. Feeding them on the other, well, actually, that's a challenge too. What am I talking about? They never want to eat. You said something really insightful in your book, and I'm going to paraphrase here because it's been so long, but I think it was people are often only as needy as their unmet needs. Does that ring any bells for you? Yes, of course. Because I think it was one of the most highlighted sort of lines in attached. Interesting. Yeah, people, it really resonates with people. It's really from an attachment perspective,

if you understand the physiology and you understand the science, it's exactly the kind of thing that we've talked about before. And it all came from, I have to say, the attachment styles were discovered by Mary Ainsworth, first in Uganda, when she observed mothers, babies when they're being weaned from breast milk. And then when she came back to Baltimore, she actually set up this thing that's called the Strange Situation Test. That's where attachment styles were, also discovered in an experiment where you bring in a toddler with a mother or a caretaker to a room full of toys. And then you ask the caretaker to leave while they're there.

There's a research assistant there. And so typically when they go into the room, they see all these toys. They get all excited. They start pointing and everything. They want to play with everything. And then start playing. You ask the caregiver to leave. And you can see it on YouTube.

They still do these experiments today. Immediately they drop everything. They crawl through the door. Start banging on the door, crying, crying, crying. And then they asked the caregiver to go back in and they hugged them. And it's in that reunion that she noticed three attachment styles. The anxious avoidant and secure. Anxious are kids that had a very hard time calming down after being sort of held.

It took them a really long time to come down and really long time to become interested in the toys again. Secures. You see it. You can't believe it. They come down in seconds and immediately start pointing one to play. And then avoidance kind of like either continue to play and didn't cry or cried a little bit. and stayed limp in their mother when they picked them up and didn't really show that much interest again in playing again.

So this is where the attachment styles were discovered in. I'm sort of telling you about this because it's that connection between our exploratory drive and the attachment. And when attachment is pacified and we feel safe, we get curious about the world. And that's why we're only as needy as our ultimate needs. It's the same thing like with the children. When our attachment needs are being met,

We don't care about the relationships. We're built to kind of look outworld into the world and it's like, oh, yeah, you're there. Like, you're not that interesting. I know you. There's all these other things in the world. I want to write. I want to paint. I want to create.

But I can go back and I can tell you about what I've done and we can share things together and it becomes deeper. Or if something bad happens to me, I can run to you and you can help make me feel better. But I'm not putting the focus on you. This is the Jordan Harbinger show. with our guest, Amir Levine. We'll be right back. Hey, if you like this episode of the show,

I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do with an appropriately healthy attachment style, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are all clickable and searchable at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code,

I encourage you to email me at Jordan atjordanharbinger.com. I am more than happy to help you get that code, find that code, surface that code for you. that important that you support those who support the show. Now, for the rest of my conversation with Amir Levine. That is so funny because that's my kids for sure. They'll be like, Daddy! Ah!

Scream cry. I run out of the office. What? Nothing. Where were you? Oh, I was in my office. Oh, okay. And then they're just like playing with Legos.

And I'm like, you just scream cried. I had to like throw the phone down and run out in my underwear to see it was going. But then they're fine. Or my daughter is like, get away from me. I'm watching Cocoa Mellon or playing with a doll or playing with a T-set. But then sometimes during the day, she just wanders into my office. She needs like one hug. And then she's like, bye, that's it.

No. Right. Exactly. That is exactly attachment at work. And it's so much easier to see it in kids, but it's also the same in adults. It's the same system. And I think that really helps to understand. Yeah.

Like once you give the other person, and that's what secure people are so good at, that's what avoidance don't understand. you just have to give a little bit, and then you get so much freedom, but instead you're doing exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. You're constantly like activating it, and so you're not getting the free time that you want. Yeah, it's so interesting. Basically, but it's got to be easier with kids like you said, right, because they don't go, I'm going to pretend that I don't need to talk to dad right now. It's just like, Daddy, I need a hug. Okay. And then bye, it's just very, there's no sort of like, they're not trying to like maintain status

or play hard to get consciously because they're just kids. And they just need that maybe secure base in order to branch out. They just kind of need to check in and make sure it's still there. Completely. And adults need it too. And the problem is that there's not. And that's why it was so important for me to write this book because there's so much in our society, a lack of understanding and appreciation of our physiological needs,

of our brain is wired and that we need people to depend on in order to feel independent. and people feel bad about themselves for needing that and try to work against it, but it's not going to work. You know, I think it's easier once you realize that dependency is a fact and not a choice in our behavior, a flaw in our behavior like a lot of people think. And I think in the book you had something called the dependency paradox, which essentially says if you want to be independent,

you need to find the right person to travel down that path alongside you. Exactly. Which makes a lot of sense, given what we've talked about, about, right? Because if you find the wrong person, they're either going to smother you or just not be there for you. Exactly. But you need the equivalent of dad who's going to give you one hug and then you can go back to work or like me and you know, send you a text once every day or so or give you a face time call while you're away on a business trip just to make sure like, we're still here, you're there, we haven't forgotten about you, the kids love you, we're making pancakes, bye. Exactly. It's exactly

and you have to sort of figure out what this other. And usually it doesn't really need a lot. We're not wired to need a lot. We're wired to actually need the minimal to make us like feel comfortable enough to then venture out into the world. That's the juncture where so much relationship unhappiness that's like the wall, they often hit. It's like they don't understand that. And they just fight it and fight it and fight it. It's like they just need a little bit. And then you have to really also work on there's so much damage that have been done over the years because they weren't there for them in a certain way. So you have to sort of overcome that. But the truth is, if they change a lot of the behaviors here and here and now, then it's not that hard. You can really make those changes and it's

easier than you think. It just has to sort of, it's a different way of thinking. It's a different way of like looking at the world and understanding relationships. You really have to understand that the well-being of the other person is your well-being. Because we're basically, once we get attached, we're like one physiological unit. And there are studies that show that people, have more secure attachment, if they get a cut, it would heal faster. It really affects our very basic physiology because we're very social and it's very, very important. That's actually really surprising because you hear like, oh, this has a positive health implication, but then usually the study is like, people have this attachment style on average live X number of years longer and you're

like, okay, well, what causation is a little fuzzy? But a cut healing faster is like one of the most clear-cut examples of physical health or your immune system. Is it the converse then true? Our physical health does it suffer when we're with a partner that does not satisfy our attachment needs? Does it go backwards, too? I believe so. Yeah. There are studies that show that people are more secure. It just really affects them in so many different areas of their life, including the health. Even if they have like a chronic illness, like fibromyalgia, their outcome is better. They tend to have less symptoms. If they have cancer, they tend to sort of fare better. It's really, it's across the board. Because if you think about it, our social existence is one of the most prominent ways that our brain

functions. And I often like to say when we have someone that we're securely, if something bad happens to us, so if we get upset, one of the most powerful ways of regulating our emotions is by getting in touch with someone who we are securely attached to. They can make us feel better in seconds. Like I said, there's no clonopin or Xanax in the world that can work so fast. There just isn't. It's so powerful. But then also the opposite is true is that our relationship can also lead to a huge emotional turmoil. If the persons are not in tune with us, they disappear, they don't come back, we don't know where they are, they cheer on us, they leave us, or they say we come to them and they're mean to us when we need them. It also can be a huge source of

emotional discontent. So really, I think about attachment to something that lies at the base of both suffering and healing from suffering. You can go both ways. That is fascinating. And what do we attribute that to? Is that just like stress messing with our immune system or telomeres or something like that? Like if we're just always worried about somebody else, maybe we don't relax. I think it affects everything. Again, it goes back to, I always like to start by saying, this is how we feel safe. And this is how our bodies feel safe. And when we feel safe, then our immune system responds differently. Everything responds differently. Oh, there's also a lot of, I don't know if shaming's quite the right term here, but we're always told, like, don't be too codependent, don't be too reliant on other

people. That's unhealthy. And I guess it could be, it just seems like you could be too dependent or too sort of needily attached to others. But it also sounds like there aren't many voices in the opposite direction like you saying, hey, no, actually healthy attachment is really, well, it's healthy. It's good for you to be, like dependency is part of our human coding, right? We've evolved this to be dependent on others, correct? Yeah, we have no other choice. It's not really a matter of our choice.

It's not something that we can decide to opt out of. There's no opt out option, not in our brain. That's where I like to go back to this whole idea that it's not really based on healthy are unhealthy. It's based on, is it effective? Is it working for you or if it's not working for you? And if it's not working for you, is there a way to make it work for you? Because I've known, like my mentor, my research mentor, university and his wife, they're both at the university. And there were this power couple. Everyone was scared of them. And they ruled everyone. They were like this all the time. She was calling him 10 times a day. She was like making sure she basically looked

over his schedule and make sure that everything that he scheduled, like, that there's like a free period for him during lunchtime to go and swim and exercise. And if someone blocked it or sort of used it for something else, she would give the, the assistant the mouthful. Like she was on top of him all the time. And they got along splendidly. And he actually is like a Nobel Prize laureate. He actually attributes his success in his career to her and her support. So were they very dependent? it? Oh my God, in a huge way. Did it work for them? Hugely, I think. So I'm not here to decide what works or what doesn't work for people and what's healthy and what's not healthy. I really, if it's working for people, then it's great. And if it's not working, then it's worth looking at what's not

working and how from that understanding of how attachment physiology works, try to fix it. That's a really good takeaway, right? Because there's so much shaming of, or even self-shaming of, like, you know, we do this and I don't want to tell people. So much self-shaming. Yeah. It's just got to happen all the time. But if it's working for you and you're not like beating each other up or something, you know, in some sort of weird, mutually abusive relationship, then it's fine.

It sounds like what you're saying. Right. But usually people where it's really working for them, they don't even talk about it. And that's the thing. Like there's so many secures in this world. They're just busy having their amazing relationships. And oftentimes, what do you really hear more about? is the ones that are not really effective,

that they're not really working out, that people are having trouble. But oftentimes there's people that are very dependent on each other, and you would never hear of it because they're just busy sort of like living their lives and having an amazing time together. It's really when things start to go wrong, that people try to question it,

but I find that they question it from the wrong places so that they blame the dependency, but it's not the dependency that's a problem. There's something there in the diode in how they're interacting with it, other that makes both parties or one party feels unsafe. And that would need to be addressed. Right. No, that definitely makes sense. Speaking of that, you mentioned earlier in your clinical work that you worked with mothers who had PTSD and their toddlers. Usually we hear about PTSD

in the context of, you know, like war veterans or something like that. But I know it can happen in other cases. Like maybe you get violently assaulted by somebody or something. Oh, domestic violence. Domestic violence. Okay. I was going to ask what usually caused it in the clinic. A lot of the time of domestic violence, and the fathers were no longer in the picture, but then oftentimes they're children. And so that's another thing that we worked on to really separate, like, no, this is your child. And even though his father might have been abusive and violent with you, this is your child. And you can really decide on how this child is going to develop and evolve.

And the fact that they're screaming or yelling or having a tantrum doesn't really connect them to the horrible things that happened to you with their father. But it's amazing how powerful it can be. And then you help them see their child for who he is or who she is. And you may help them connect. And then again, it's that attachment paradigm where the child feels safe so they don't scream and yell as much. And then the love comes out.

And the same thing also happens in adult relationships. All of a sudden you can put down your guard and you can let the other person in if you sort of learn how to make each other feel safe. It's really interesting, right? Because you see how attachment styles might develop in some cases, right? Woman marries or dates, man has a child with man who's abusive, man out of the picture. Child born, maybe even later than that. Never meets dad. But then mom is reacting to the child's yelling, screaming tantrums, which every toddler does, every baby does all the time, just because that's how they communicate. In a certain way, then the baby learns, oh, when I do this, mom retreats. And then they develop an attack. style that's maybe complimentary or somewhat based on that.

And then they grow up and it's like, why am I this way while your dad abused your mom? But I never even met the guy. He wasn't even in the picture. She married a nice guy 10 years later. How can that affect me? And the answer is, well, this. And that's where that therapy was so powerful. And that's why being able to break that cycle early and sort of shifted to a different

trajectory because it's so malleable, because our social brain is so malleable. and oftentimes you can really change a trajectory of a relationship between mother and child, and that's huge. That is huge. But it's the same in adults, by the way. You can still do that also for people who are adults. That's really good news. Take note of that, everybody.

If you're having problems and it's caused potentially by your attachment style, therapy is a great place for you to go and maybe get this fine-tuned a little bit. You know what? It reminds me a long time ago, and I want to say like over a century ago, is this in your book, Amir? they took children away from parents because like the way to raise kids was to basically like have them and then not see them for 10 years. Like send them to boarding school or do something where they're just like off on their own. And I can't imagine that that's good for the child.

Right. So in the book we write about John Bolby is actually a father of attachment theory. And then Mary Ainsworth, she discovered attachment styles because before that in Freudian theory, they said, no, you know, the child is dependent on a mother, but only because. she gives them their basic needs. She gives shelter and food and water. She breastfeed, so that's why they become attached. And Balby said, no, no, no. He observed that actually children become attached to their parents, and that's unrelated to what they're getting from them or not getting from them. It's not because they give them food or sustenance that they become attached. It's that it's a basic need. Attachment is basic need, separate and just as important as food and water. And he observed it. He worked

in England, and you observe it, especially during World War II, where they sent a lot of kids and toddlers up to Northern England during the Blitz. And he saw the children, very young children, they looked after them, they fed them, but there were so many and they were so busy that they had problem developing because they didn't have that attachment. And that's where, actually, that insight came to him that it's actually a basic need. And that, I think, is so important to understand that it's a basic need. And oftentimes our society goes against that. You have to learn to love yourself

before you can love someone else. No, you can't learn to love yourself before you love someone else. Like being with other people is a basic need for us, just as much as food and water. Fascinating stuff, Amir. I think this is going to help a lot of people

see their relationships and see themselves much more clearly. So thank you once again for coming on the show. Really appreciate the conversation. Really insightful. I love stuff like this. You're welcome. great to be here, and I really enjoyed it, too.

You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with actress and former Scientologist Leah Remini. There's a special department in the Scientology Organization. Their sole job is to go after those speaking out against Scientology. That's all they do day in, day out. One of the directives says by Elvon Harvard says, find out what the person is seeking to protect and go after it. And I'm quoting now, if at all possible,

utterly destroy. When you want to talk about, oh, it's like any other religion, you need to get your head out of your fucking ass and really understand what the difference is between having faith and having an organization that has a price list and has an organization dedicated solely for the utter destruction of people who leave.

Scientology's goal is to make 80% of the planet Scientologists. Without Scientology, there's no hope for man. And that is the extremist attitude of every Scientologist on the planet. The leader's wife has been missing for years now. What do you think happened to her? Where is she? I don't know that Shelley's a lot.

I don't know where Shelley is. This is David Muscabbage, the leader of Scientology, chairman of the board. This is Tom Cruise's best friend. Jordan, if you had a best friend that you knew had a wife that was with him all the time, wouldn't you say, bro, I haven't seen your wife? Like, I need to see her. I'm sorry to worry that she's in a fucking freezer somewhere. No one's done that.

I have been the only person that has ever inquired about Shelly Miscavich. To learn more about the dangers of the cult of Scientology from Leah Remini herself, check out episode 485 on the Jordan Harbinger Show. I love this practical stuff. Can't get enough. Amir is also a gem of a guy, really just a nice guy to talk to. And as we've heard, that's indicative of a secure attachment style, although who knows.

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me later.