The Jordan Harbinger Show - 961: Dark Prognosis of Friend's Postpartum Psychosis | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

Postpartum psychosis is a serious disorder that can make mothers kill their children. So why aren't we talking more about it? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: In the wise words of James Clear (and Adam Smith, probably): "Don't spend what you haven't earned." A friend you've known for years killed her baby under the influence of a disorder called postpartum psychosis. The media is having a field day reporting her as a murderous monster, but why isn't it taking the opportunity to raise awareness of this condition so others can avoid repeating the nightmare she and her family are experiencing? You're torn between the desire to maintain the happiness you have with your current partner and the longing for love with someone else who seems unattainable. How can you reconcile these conflicting emotions without hurting anyone? Is there truth to the idea that your teen niece's father is "the kind of person" who might sexually assault her, or is your conspiracy-minded sister just paranoid about her ex having visitation rights? [Thanks to clinical psychologist Dr. Erin Margolis for helping us with this one!] How can you focus on networking and being authentic on a professional level when your Fortune 10 employer has you signing non-disclosure agreements that keep you from mentioning the nature of your work or even the name of your company? Hey! We've got an update from the listener whose psychiatrist was hitting on her on episode 931! Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/961 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the black polymer filter, allowing us to stare straight on into this blinding solar eclipse of life conundra,

Gabriel Mizrahi. You know, then again, if I learned anything from decades of eating Cheerios, a tiny hole in a cereal box would probably suffice. You know, you're right. I remember that. They even showed you on the box that you could do that. I don't...

That's right. I originally didn't want to highlight how replaceable you actually were, but I'm glad that you came. to that conclusion yourself. I mean, yeah, it's called self-awareness. I got it. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's

most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. From arms dealers to undercover economic hitmen, gold smugglers, astronauts, rocket scientists, generals, tech luminaries, and music moguls. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and generally try to appreciate just how cray-cray life can get and how to navigate the cray-cray so you can get through

the day-day. Yeah, I would otherwise never say the words cray-cray. Don't worry, folks. Before we dive into the letters today, I wanted to share an idea that I came across a while back that has served me very well over the years. It's not revolutionary or anything. It's powerful. The idea is, don't spend what you haven't earned.

Now, with money, okay, it's obvious. but this applies actually to every domain. Avoid financial debt whenever possible. You don't spend money you haven't earned, okay. But avoid social debt. Don't spend goodwill that you haven't earned. Avoid calendar debt. Don't spend free time.

You haven't earned. I wish I could remember the source of this idea, but I do remember something this person said that stuck with me, which was the disciplined earner can be a guilt-free spender. I think this is either Ramit Satie or James Clear or both of those guys. I can't remember. And I love this idea. and I found that it helped me protect myself

and enjoy the capital, capital of all kinds that I've built up over the years. And especially, I love the idea as it applies to relationships because one of the qualities of great connectors is that they invest in other people

generously, genuinely, with no expectation of a return, especially not an immediate return. And they do this long before they ever need anything, right? It's almost like dig the well before you get thirsty. Can't remember where I've heard that. But when you do this,

These folks, they have this reservoir of loyalty and affection to draw on, and they're not trying to tap into it before they've accumulated the quote-unquote credit, so they never incur the debt. And this idea also applies to a job or a workplace. For example, when people write in asking how to land a promotion or get a raise, our advice is pretty much always to perform above their current responsibilities. Take the initiative, prove they're as valuable as they think they are, and then ask for the promotion or the raise. And rather than incurring a debt by asking for a raise and then doing the work, you do the work

for a reasonable period of time, build up the value, build up the goodwill, and then you ask for the raise, at which point it's just a way easier conversation. Right. It's also much more fun to ask somebody to honor that quote unquote credit than it is to ask them to incur that quote unquote debt. Exactly, right? Like you're going to your boss and you're thinking, hey, I need a raise. And they're going, well, what have you done for me lately?

But if you go to your boss and you're like, so, I'm basically the doing. the manager's job after he left for the last three months. They're like, yeah, oh yeah, you should probably actually get paid like you're the manager. Let me go ahead and run that up the chain. So this idea also applies to free time, by the way. When it comes to enjoying downtime, I think a lot of people swing wildly in one direction. They either stop working and just do whatever they want and they pick up the pieces later. That's kind of like the 20-something strategy, which is not good. Or they they become workaholics and they never take breaks, which is also not good. And that's what I'm saying basically what I did in my 30s.

And honestly, I was, I sometimes even still am the latter type of person. For a while, I would work six to seven days a week. I'd burn out after a couple weeks, and then I would spend a whole day or maybe even a whole weekend just dumbly staring at the TV or maybe turning my brain on enough to play Xbox or whatever. Or I just get like

sick for a whole month and have a runny stuffy nose and be tired all the time. Now I do things very differently. I plan my time off. I make sure my work is done inside those boundaries. and then I can fully enjoy my time off, and I'm not feeling this weird obligation to be working. Like, I'm not snowboarding and going,

I have so many emails, right? I'm just going, ah, I got a lot of emails. But I already read the book I needed to read, and I got a five-hour bus ride home where I'm going to finish it, right? So now, obviously this is easier if you've got a job that requires you to be on-premises or has defined hours.

It's a little bit harder for remote workers and freelancers because now work is home and home is work, which means your discipline has to be a lot stronger. Not your motivation to get it done, but I just mean like you're disciplined to get things done and then be done at 6 p.m. Or whatever. And it's funny. As I mentioned, I just started learning to snowboard.

And snowboarding has really helped me with this because you just can't take calls or do emails on the mountain. Nobody's on the chairlift being like, let me just reply to this real quick. I mean, maybe some people are, but I'm not quite there yet. So now when I got a phone call, I got to prep an interview. I can't coaster punt on this until Saturday because I'm going to be shredding pow, bro. I got to take it. I got to get done during the week.

And having kids help me a lot too, you don't have to start snowboarding. boarding at age 44 to get this. You're having, just have some kids. That's easier. You feel like a real a hole telling your kids you're going to take them to the zoo and then spending the entire time on a freaking Zoom call walking around outside the exhibit so you can hear other people. You do that one time. You will never do that again. Anyway, at first I thought having kids and picking up hobbies like snowboarding would actually limit my flexibility. And in certain ways, of course it does. But in other ways, they're actually helping me create freedom because work and fun can't bleed into each other like they used to. So I have to be disciplined.

Right. And discipline avoids incurring that time debt that then I feel a need to pay back and sacrifice sleep or whatever over. Anyway, you can see how that idea extended across all your relationships and your commitments can totally change the equation. It's a different way of seeing the world and I find that it makes life a lot more enjoyable. So if you see a lot of overlap and a lot of things bleeding in and your free time, you're thinking about work and at work, you're burning out, definitely give this idea a little bit of a shot. And I talk about it. And I talk about this in the six-minute networking course, by the way. It's one of the core ideas in there. So definitely check that out and give it a go. It's a game changer. I mean, they made the course

and I made it free so that you can do this stuff and get the benefit from it and you can either thank me later or be like most of you and just never say anything. But anyway, a little passive aggressive there. Yeah, no, that's fine. Just take the course that I made for free and never thank me at all. It's fine. I don't care. And never thank me and I'll just get on with my life. Totally not taking it personally. Anyway, we got some fun ones. We got some true, true doozies. And I want to dive in. Gabe, take us to the first thing in the mailbag and just a heads for everyone listening. This first one is a, it's a tough listen. It involves some really grim stuff. So, yeah, heads up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Eight months ago, my friend Emma celebrated the arrival

of her baby boy. Like my wife and me, she and her partner struggled for years to conceive. Watching her succeed brought immense joy to everyone in her circle. I've known Emma since music college, two decades now, and she's renowned in the local music scene for her talent and her compassion. She leads music and art workshops to support those facing substance abuse and mental health challenges, and she works to combat the stigma around mental health in our city. She is a truly remarkable person. Shortly after giving birth, Emma struggled to bond with her baby, which evolved into postpartum depression. Her partner got her professional help, which revealed that she was actually suffering from postpartum psychosis.

She was swiftly moved to a specialized mental health ward in a nearby city due to the perceived threat to the baby's safety. So just to pause for a second here, I had never actually heard of postpartum psychosis before. We did a little reading about it, so I just want to share a little bit for anybody who doesn't know. So we've probably already all heard of postpartum depression, fairly common, often referred to as the baby blues.

These are usually mild to moderate mood changes after having a baby when your hormones are still kind of evening out. Postpartum psychosis, well, it's what it sounds like. The symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, mania, low mood or energy, or just rapidly changing moods. And so you get anxiety, agitation, being withdrawn, losing your normal inhibitions. And apparently this happens to one in a thousand mothers after giving birth. So a tenth of one percent of mothers, okay, that's very rare.

but still that means millions of women around the world experience this in some form, which I think is pretty wild. Also, they don't know exactly what causes postpartum psychosis, but apparently you're more at risk if you've already had a diagnosis of, say, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, or if you have a family history of mental illness, or other women in your family have had postpartum psychosis, or if you had postpartum psychosis after a previous pregnancy. But also, interestingly, it can happen if you had a traumatic birth or pregnancy, which is kind of terrifying. So based on what we read, the most severe symptoms tend to last two to 12 weeks,

and then it can take six to 12 months and sometimes more, but not, it seems pretty rare, to completely recover. But with treatment and with the right support, it seems that most people with postpartum psychosis make a full recovery, no problem. It's just got to be terrifying. Terrifying. Imagine you temporarily become Josh, your old neighbor was schizophrenia. Yep. Except it's because you had a child and the child is maybe the object of your delusions or whatever. It's so intense. Anyway, carry on, Gabe.

A few months later, the medical team overseeing Emma's case decided to bring the baby in, thinking it would help restart the bonding process and speed up her recovery. Unfortunately, they moved her to a mother and baby ward prematurely, relaxing restrictions and observations despite her not being ready. They even allowed her to take the baby around the hospital grounds unassisted. Then, shortly before the holidays a few months ago, Emma fled with the baby to a nearby park and smothered him to death. Gosh, okay, so I've already heard part of this story, and it's every time I hear it, it's just so disturbing. And it's so sad, man.

That's beyond sad. Like, can't even wrap my head around this, really. There are just no words. I can't even imagine what this woman must have been going through, because she wanted this kid really. bad and then suddenly, I mean, it's just so tragic. Yeah, I don't mean to get ahead of ourselves, but it's really sad to think that she will probably come out of this psychosis at some point in a few weeks or six months or, who knows, maybe she already has.

And then you just got to live with what you did while you were sick. It's terrible. I don't know how you come back from this, but we'll get to that. We'll get into that. So he goes on, overwhelmed with remorse, Emma called the police upon realizing what she had done. she broke down in tears as she turned herself in. I got to say, Jordan, that's a fascinating detail. So there was a part of her that understood what she did

or that knew it was wrong or at least that something was not right. Well, that's a meaningful detail. And it's hard to know what to make of it. So I'm sure at her trial, if this goes to trial, it's going to turn on whether she was in her right mind or whether she was quote unquote insane when she did this. Right. And I think that detail might complicate things.

Because if you do something like this and you start talking about UFOs and aliens and transporting yourself to the fourth dimension, they're going to be like, okay-dokey. But if you're like, oh my God, I killed my baby, then it's like, okay. Well, were you lucid enough to know what you were doing? Exactly.

Yeah. So he goes on, she now faces murder charges, and the court case is underway. Unfortunately, the media, including usually reliable outlets, has sensationalized the event, portraying her as a cold, evil killer.

While there may be some truth to that, it doesn't capture the full essence of the Emma I know. The media tends to simplify these complex situations without delving into the background of the people involved. I'm now struggling to accept this tragic event. Our entire friend group is grieving not only this baby, but also the loss of our friend. She's currently refusing prison visits,

and we all sense that she might never recover from this devastating situation. I don't know how to reconcile the good person I know with the fact that she's now labeled as a killer. I'm also grappling with the fact that my wife and I are still facing challenges conceiving. This is a baby we would have loved to support, and now his life is lost. Also, until now, I hadn't considered the true dangers of postpartum hormonal issues. There also seems to be a lack of interest in the hospital's oversight policies that could

have potentially averted this tragedy. My friend was incredibly sick and far from her best self when she did this. How does someone like Emma come back from such a profound and tragic turn of events. How can someone perceived as a saint suddenly be labeled a murderer, rather than raising awareness about the complex challenges some women face after childbirth? And how do I make sense of this loss amid our own struggles to conceive? Signed, finding it infeasible to make sense of the unspeakable, but convinced that there's something teachable if reasonable people looked past the merely perceivable. Oh, boy. Well, like I said, this story is truly extraordinary,

and I'm just stunned by all of this. The state you have to be in mentally to murder your own child, it's just, this is psychosis, right? There's no way an otherwise healthy and loving person would murder her child unless there was something seriously, seriously wrong. Obviously, we can't know

what was going through her mind when she did this, but it really does sound like a temporary psychosis that basically turned her into a different person. It's like doing something terrible in a dream, and then you wake up and you find out you actually did that, but you were sleepwalking or something. Obviously, as a parent, all of this just hits very close to home. My heart breaks for this baby who didn't deserve any of this, and it's hard to really even talk about that. It's just too horrible. And I feel terrible for Emma, this remarkable person who was kind and empathetic and talented, this champion of mental health support, which is sort of a strange irony in all this.

and now she'll have to live with this for the rest of her life, and maybe she will spend a large chunk of that in prison. And of course, I feel terrible for Emma's partner. I mean, what that guy must be going through right now, the shock and grief he must be in, he lost his baby, and now he's basically going to lose his wife for a couple of decades, maybe. It's just unimaginable. Oh, gosh.

Okay, these poor people, this loss is probably going to define them, in part, at least, for the rest of their life. lives. And man, I don't mean to make this about me, of course, in any way, but a story like this makes you so grateful to have a relatively happy and healthy family because, my God, look what can happen. So it's a good question. How does somebody like Emma come back from something this tragic? And honestly, I don't know. I don't know if she can. I don't know if she will. I also don't know what coming back from something like this means. I mean, there might not be a back to come back to. Right. What happened happened. You can't return to the same.

life you had before or even the same experience of life. The reality is you had a baby and now you don't because you did something awful while you were seriously unwell. And you probably aren't going to have a husband either. I mean, I don't know where this guy is, but that's tough. And I would imagine that Emma's going to have to find a way to accept and make sense of this tragedy in her own way and find a way to live with the fact that she did something terrible when she was in a highly compromised state. I mean, maybe that's how you live with something like this. You just remind yourself constantly that you're basically not yourself. Right, but then you're the same person.

You're in the same body, so you're stuck with all the feeling. It's just a nightmare. It is, yeah. So his point about how the media is covering all of this is also interesting. I read a bunch of articles about the story. They didn't quite paint Emma as a cold evil killer, as our friend described, but they did only focus on the bare facts. Her name, what she did, what she's accused of.

They didn't get into her life, her backstory at all. I think that's kind of his point, though, right? the media is only talking about what she did. They're not like, hey, this person had postpartum psychosis. She was great at music. She had done a lot of work in the mental health community. They're just like, you know, we got a hundred words more. What are we going to put in here? Which is a real shame because that's actually the more interesting story as well as the more humanizing one. Of course. Again, my guess is the media's sleeping on the deeper story. They might not even know about the postpartum psychosis stuff. Emma's friends probably know more about her than the journalists because

they're in the loop. They're in her life. These reporters, to your point, are probably just reading the police blotter and getting a few quotes and slapping a grabby headline on it and it is a very grabby headline and then they're just moving on because that's the scope of their job. If there's a more nuanced story to be told, it's going to have to come from a publication that does deeper stories investigations and actually wants to get into this whole question of is this person a murderer? Is she a woman who's struggling after childbirth? How accountable do you hold someone like this? You know, why aren't we talking more about postpartum psychosis as a society? of that. Exactly. It'll be the Atlantic or the New Yorker or whatever or some true crime docu-series. It's not going to be

writers pumping out five-paragraph articles about crazy crime cases for clicks. So it's interesting. I googled postpartum psychosis stories, and there are a decent amount of them out there, but they're usually personal essays written by women who have gone through this, which is fascinating. But they're not long articles that dig deep into the whole topic. So one thing you might want to consider doing is reaching out to some crime reporters at major publications, also maybe even some science journalists. And I would tell them, hey, I'm so-and-so, I'm a friend of Emma's. Here are a few links to some articles about her case. I think the media is missing the real story here. There's this whole postpartum psychosis element. There's this whole incredible backstory to Emma's life. I would love to see a journalist do

write by my friend and actually capture how complex this case is. And I'm happy to share more if you're interested. And if anyone responds, you can hop on the phone with them, you can share some emails. Maybe you could be the person who gets the right reporter to tell the full story. It's actually a great idea. And honestly, it is an incredible story. I feel like the right journalist would bite at that. Maybe you even connect a journalist with Emma's friends and family, maybe even with Emma herself, if anyone's open to talking, of course. I'm guessing though her lawyer is not letting her talk to the media right now. But who knows? Maybe down the line she will. Maybe some coverage would actually help her case. I don't know. So you're asking,

another good question, how do you make sense of this loss amid your own struggles to conceive? And I got to say, it's so interesting that this tragedy happened while you and your wife are also trying to get pregnant. And I'm really sorry that you guys have been having a hard time. That sucks. And I know that this can be a really intense process, can be very demoralizing, and I hope things turn around for you guys soon. I can definitely appreciate why it's so hard to watch your friend end her baby's life after trying so hard to get pregnant. And then you turn to each other and you're like, but we want a baby. I mean, we would have gladly cared for that baby. You know, how can this, how can this happen? Yeah, that's kind of a punch in the gut, I suppose. I mean, it just seems so cruel, right? But this is also a narrative that

you guys are helping to create. And I get why these two stories, your fertility journey and Emma's tragedy are happening side by side, so they seem connected. But you're also attaching a lot of meaning to Emma's story because of what you're going through these days. And honestly, how could you not? But I also think it's important to notice what you guys are bringing to her story, how your own hope, your own sadness, your own grief has a way of cross-pollinating a little bit with her story, to the point where it might be hard to separate your feelings about this tragedy from your feelings about your own fertility challenges. So when you say, how do I make sense of this loss amid our own struggles to conceive?

Well, first of all, I'm not sure that you'll ever really make sense of this loss. part of what is so upsetting about Emma's story is that there isn't any logic. There's no coherent logic to what she did, right? This is the logic of psychosis, which is a logic of no logic. Right, it's just sickness. It's chaos. Yeah, it's total mayhem. I mean, you can try to find some explanation for it, but I don't really know if there is any.

The only meaning I can find in this whole story is that we humans can be very vulnerable, right? Like more vulnerable than we want to admit. And we're at the whim of chemistry and statistics a lot of the time. And we need good people and solid systems around us that can take care of us when we're in trouble. I mean, like you said, there were probably some big flaws in the hospital's handling of MS case. Clearly. And that might be the one concrete takeaway here, that the way we treat people who are experiencing postpartum psychosis needs to be a lot better.

By the way, that would probably be a great thing to include in a pitch to a journalist. I feel like that's one of the bigger reasons for telling this story. It's kind of a window into the health care system and how we treat new mothers and all that. It's kind of shocking. They were just like, oh, here's your baby and go ahead and go for a walk. It's like, maybe dip your toes on the water from this person who was like threatening her own. I don't know. A really good article could shine a light on that.

And I bet that would also get a reporter pretty fired up. There's like a deeper purpose to this. It's not just, oh, this is so crazy. Somebody snapped and killed their child. There's something bigger here. But that still doesn't explain why Emma did what she did. It only explains how she was able to go through with it. So my feeling is, you guys need to separate these two stories

and notice your tendency to tie them together, given what you're going through right now. Emma killed her baby while she was psychotic. That's a fact. It's a very tragic fact. You and your wife are struggling to conceive. That's another fact, a very challenging one, and also one that could change one day.

Now, if you want to find some connection between these two things, if looking for meaning and that is helpful to you in some way, great, totally fair. I mean, look, for example, maybe Emma's story gives you an even greater appreciation for life and for being healthy. Maybe it makes you even more certain that you guys want a child and that you guys are going to be great parents. Maybe the story makes you think about how to surround yourselves with the right support so that if anything like this ever happens to you guys, you're going to be much better equipped. Although given the statistics, I really would not stay up at night worrying about that. It's just so rare. But those are a few productive meanings you

could create from this story. Less productive meanings are the world is cruel, the world is unjust. I mean, how could this happen if it caused Emma to kill her child while it won't allow us to conceive? Or how did we not get the chance to adopt her baby if she didn't really want it? I totally understand why those meanings occur, but you guys get to decide what you want to take away from this experience and whether these two events even belong in the same universe. Yeah, that's a good point, Gabe. first of all, I mean, just to sort of handle the, nobody kills their baby and thinks this is a better option than giving it up for adoption, right? There's no logical connection. Thought going on with this. We talk a lot on the show about the stories we tell ourselves,

the narratives we create, when they're helpful, when they're limiting. And in this case, the tempting narrative is that what Emma did has some bearing on what our friend and his wife are going through. Because we're meaning making machines and yada yada, right, patternicity. I get that. It highlights their struggle. But to your point, we also have to be disciplined. about which dots we connect. Right. Just because the dots are near each other doesn't mean that they're necessarily related.

Right. Struggling to conceive is hard enough. You don't also need to torture yourself by fixating on how ironic and cruel it was that somebody else hurt their own child as tempting as that might be. And I am so sorry that your friend went through this that you guys just have to watch it all unfold.

It's truly extraordinary. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Very few people, thank God, will ever go through something like this. But if they do or they know someone who does or they're married to somebody who does, I hope this story helps them find the support they need to take care of their child and get healthy again. That support exists. Most of these stories do not end in a mother murdering her child. My heart just breaks that Emma's story went a different way. Mine too. And by the way, if anybody's interested, we're going to link to some of those

postpartum psychosis stories in the show notes. They're pretty intense, but they're very eye-opening. And I have to say, they actually gave me a lot of hope that recovery is absolutely possible, very common. And like Jordan said, most of these stories don't end up in a tragedy like this. Yeah, I'm with you. I hope this topic gets more coverage because it really is fascinating and it's obviously incredibly important. Jen and I had never heard of this. And when Jen heard about this, she was kind of like, I've had intrusive thoughts. And I was like, really?

And she's like, yeah, I mean, they go away. Or you just like, you realize, like, whoa, that's kind of a scary thing I just thought about. but imagine if you are in a place where you can't control that. That's what that is, essentially. Boy, I am still reeling from this one, Gabe. I'm going to have to shake this off. I literally want to go hug my kids, I think, before we tackle the rest of these questions

because it's just, it's getting to me. And in good conscience, I really don't think I can make a joke in this ad pivot. Even Dark Jordan is not that dark, so stick around for a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. your support of our advertisers does keep the lights on around here.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all-in-one clickable, searchable place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. And now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 19-year-old in a relationship with a wonderful girl, and we share moments of genuine happiness together. But for the last three years, there's been a lingering issue.

I have feelings for another girl. This unrequited love has become a burden and causes me distress. I genuinely care for my current partner and our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness. But these unresolved feelings for someone else create a conflict within me that is difficult to ignore. I'm torn between the desire to maintain the happiness I have with my current partner and the longing for a love that seems unattainable. It's left me questioning my emotions, values, and the potential impact on my relationship. both individuals. How would you navigate such a delicate emotional landscape? How can I reconcile

these conflicting emotions and make decisions that prioritize the well-being of those I care about, signed, embrangled, and trying to untangle this confusing triangle? Huh, interesting. Okay. Is it just me or is this letter just sort of weirdly light on details? No, it's not just you. It's sort of bare bones, isn't it? It's part of why I chose it. I wanted to talk about this with you. What's going on in here. Let's get into it. Yeah. All right. Fine. So I can certainly understand the conflict that you're in. You're not the first young buck to be caught between two doze. Am I getting my dear terminology right? Not really a dear guy. Actually, I think you nailed it. Bucks and doze. Bucks and does. It sounds right to me. Being in a relationship with one person while having feelings for somebody else is very stressful.

And it can be confusing. It can bring up a lot of guilt and sadness. And it puts distance between you and your partner, which obviously sucks for both of you. So first of all, if you're having feelings for somebody else, The first thing you need to do is dig into them and get clear about whether these feelings speak more to this other woman or more to any deficiencies in your current relationship. You said you're with a wonderful girl, and I'm sure what you guys have is nice, obviously, or you wouldn't be feeling this conflict. But you also said that you, quote, share moments of genuine happiness together. That kind of jumped out at me. Just moments? It's not an overall, pretty consistent happy vibe.

I don't know. I might be reading into that one sentence too much. Maybe you didn't mean that you're only happy in moments, but that does seem to be a clue to how you feel about your girlfriend. Right. I mean, when you're in a truly happy relationship, you don't say, we have moments of genuine happiness. You say we're genuinely happy, right? Right. It's just an interesting way to put it. And hey, maybe there's a language barrier here. Is it possible that English isn't his first language? And you never know how Google translates going to spin your relationship drama in the Feedback Friday inbox. I'm also a little puzzled by,

our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness. I mean, okay, I hope so. What else is it built on, or should it be built on? All interesting turns of phrase coming from a guy who has his eye on somebody else. The second thing you need to do is get clearer about whether you want to act on these feelings,

whether this other woman might share them or could share them. You've really given us precious little to go on here. But reading between the lines, I'm not getting a strong sense that this woman is orbiting you two, just waiting in the wings. Right. He said he's longing for love that seems unattainable. Un attainable. Right. So I don't know what to make of that. But does it seem unattainable because he's already in a relationship and he's holding himself back? Or because it would take some effort to pursue this other woman or she's like not interested? I don't know. Right. That's my

question. Is it unattainable because she just doesn't share his feelings? And so he's just left with his longing for her. Right. It's unclear. But I think if they were talking and he was getting a vibe that he might have included that in his letter. My sense is he's over here in this relationship just low-key pining for this other woman and she's way over there, unaware that he even feels that way. It's funny, Jordan, he's asking us how to navigate

such a quote-unquote delicate emotional landscape, but I'm not really getting a good feel for this delicate emotional landscape in his letter. No, I'm getting kind of the opposite. His letter's very factual and it's a little distant. To your point, it might just be the way he writes or a language thing, but he strikes me as very kind of formal

very logical, a little abstract. Yeah, same. I'm not getting a warm and gooey or super vulnerable from this letter. And I get that this is how human feelings work. And our relationship operates like this. And I'm caught between two irreconcilable goods. It's a little Sheldon Cooper, I think. And I'm not trying to be mean, but it's sort of like analytical.

Yeah, it's a big bang theory without any other bang. Yeah. Which is the worst pun I've ever made in my life. But look, all of that is fine. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything. It's just hard not to notice. that this might be part of your personality or how you're looking at things. And so this is a little bit of a reach, but my question is, are those qualities playing a role

in how you relate to your girlfriend right now? Are they informing how you imagine this other woman might feel about you? Is this part of why you feel this other relationship is unattainable? Because maybe these emotions are a little bit hard to understand or talk about. If any of that fits, this little crisis might be a nice opportunity to get more in touch with your feelings, your girlfriend's feeling. your experience of this conflict that you feel, honestly, the quality of your relationships in general. These confusing feelings you have for this other woman, in addition to being feelings for her,

I think they're also very good data for you. That's exactly right. So my take on situations like this is if you're having feelings for someone else, then you're probably not in the right relationship. Or you need to do some work to sort through whatever's not working in your current relationship and just work on that. Dude, especially at 19 years old, you're so young man. and if you're not 100% psyched about the person you're with,

now is definitely the time to be exploring different relationships and feelings without tying yourself into knots. You're not 43 with two kids or whatever, and you're like, I'm questioning my, you know, come on, man. Not to be disrespectful, but you're a kid. Enjoy that part. That's one of the cool things about being a kid. Commitments are just, you know, paper thin sometimes.

In general, I've found that any feelings you have for somebody else while you're in a committed relationship, they usually reveal needs of your own and cracks in the relationship more than they do virtues in the other person. You could replace that other person with pretty much anybody. Very well said. And that's even truer if the other person is not available or does not share your feelings. Right. So either you use them to understand what's going on in your own relationship or you decide to pursue this other person and see if she might share your feelings. Those are basically your two options. But if you do pursue her, I highly recommend that you end your current relationship first. It's the right thing to do, and that's one way to prioritize the well-being of those you care

about, as you said, even though breaking up would probably be quite sad. But again, if you go that route, please make sure it's because you're realizing that this isn't the right relationship, not just because you want to be with this other specific person or try that. Who might not be available anyway. Exactly. You do have a third option here, which is to sit with these feelings for a little while, figure out why they're so compelling, whether they're appropriate, whether you have them for somebody who's available and interested. And if the answer is no, then the next step is to learn how to put those feelings to bed, whether you stay with your girlfriend or not. Yeah, it's a good point. Putting certain feelings to bed is also an important process sometimes.

And that might be part of making himself more available to his girlfriend if that's part of the gap in their relationship. But again, like I said, he's 19. He's learning all this stuff for the first time. It's okay to be confused. It's okay to be awkward. It's okay to not handle this perfectly. how you learn. Just be kind, thoughtful, and honest along the way with yourself and with everyone involved. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job quite a bit easier. If you just found out your sister slept with your boyfriend before you got together, you're wondering whether to support a plea deal for your brother-in-law's extortionist, or you've just discovered that your tax evading

husband on probation has been hiding guns in the walls of your home. Fascinating stuff from last week. I keep thinking about that one. Hit us up Friday atjordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Over the past year, my bond with my 14-year-old niece has really developed. Her mother, my sister, has faced significant challenges in her life, including a dangerous

and abusive relationship with her daughter's father. That relationship ended dramatically when he assaulted her and threatened her life. As a result, my sister struggles with unresolved issues, which have caused her to self-isolate and struggle with trust. Her vulnerability also makes her prone to believing in conspiracy theories. I care deeply for my sister, but interacting with her requires a careful approach. When she discusses unconventional ideas, I listen, but I also share my perspective, explaining calmly why I find certain ideas implausible. She usually accepts this without resistance, but she's overly.

suspicious and often jumps to conclusions, almost as if she believes the world is against her. Recently, my niece confided in me very upset about something my sister told her, that her father, if given a chance, would sexually abuse her. Okay, interesting. So obviously concerning, but also a complicated piece of information to get from a source like this. Yeah, hard to know how much stock to put in that, given the source. So she goes on, this has left my niece extremely anxious and suspicious.

Her father is now seeking overnight visits, despite having to drive six hours for court-approved visits once a week, which seems to be causing my sister great distress. She also mentioned that her ex's father accompanies him on these visits, as he doesn't trust his son with his daughter either. My sister also says that all of the gifts her ex buys their daughter, like an iPhone and an iPad, is to love-bom her. The truth of the situation is unclear to me. I've heard troubling accounts about the father from my sister, and I don't think she's lying,

but sometimes I question the accuracy of her interpretations. So does my niece, who's been sharing how disturbed she feels, hearing all of this from her mother. I'm torn now between believing my sister's paranoid tendencies, which might be valid, and the possibility of the unthinkable here. I've been suggesting family therapy, a new concept for them, and my sister is somewhat receptive to it. Should my sister be telling her daughter this? how can I know if what she's saying about her father is true,

and how can I reassure my niece when she's troubled by these thoughts during her weekly visits with her dad, signed Sizing up my Siss when her ideas are hit or miss, but not wanting to be remiss if I dismiss her legit fit about the fact that her ex is the pits. Right, yeah, this is a tricky Sitch. That might be the longest sign-off you've ever had, by the way. Yeah, but you also kind of added to it by saying Sitch.

Yeah, that's true. It was like kind of an accident. It goes on for days. So if this thing about your niece's father is true, obviously it's a huge concern. He does have a track record of being dangerous and abusive, so this fear is not completely outlandish on its face. On the other hand, your sister's a bit of an unreliable narrator, right? She's prone to kooky ideas, faulty logic, jumping to weird conclusions, I guess you could say.

So it's really hard to know how seriously to take this claim. And that obviously puts you in a very tough situation as well as your niece. and I feel for you. We're on to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to the one and only Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the fucking doctor.

And Dr. Margolis confirmed that this is indeed a sad and scary situation, but it's also a confusing one. So we started by asking her, should your sister be telling her daughter that her dad might abuse her? And Dr. Margolis was honest with us. She said she didn't know. if she felt she'd need a lot more context to weigh in on that.

More information about the father, about your sister, about your niece, about all their history together, but she did say that your niece's personality plays a big role here. If she's an emotionally mature 14-year-old, that's far different from, say, a developmentally disabled 14-year-old. Her vulnerability would be different. Her ability to understand the situation with her father and potentially defend herself would be different. Her capacity to sit with this information and form her own conclusions would be different.

but the reality is your niece has already been told this thing about her father. So it's like, what are you going to do? Tell your sister not to tell her daughter? Tell your niece to just forget about what she heard about her dad. That is not going to change anything at this point. You also can't know for sure whether what your sister said about her ex is even true. And that's really frustrating. And it's got to make you feel quite powerless here.

So Dr. Margolis felt the better question might be, what was the function of your sister's, telling your niece this thing about her dad. What I'm wondering is, was it really to protect her from a guy who has a history of violence? Or is this another one of your sister's questionable slash paranoid slash conspiratorial opinions? And she's trying to achieve something here. For example, is she painting herself as the better parent, the safer parent? Is she trying to get back at her ex-husband for what he did to her? Is she trying to sabotage the weekly visits? Is she trying to feel more secure or empowered by being, you know, quote-unquote, in the nose?

about certain difficult facts or whatever, which, by the way, very common with conspiratorial thinkers, I get it. Oh, that's a good point. Right. Yeah, the question is, is this a real legitimate piece of information that she is highlighting to protect her daughter? Or is this perhaps some kind of tactic to secure her daughter's loyalty and possibly turn her against her father or something like that?

Right. It could be, which would be somewhat understandable, given how terribly this guy treated the mom when they were together. I mean, the dude does not sound like a healthy or safe person, but that also doesn't mean he's a daughter molester either. Exactly, right. That's true, even if he is incapable of this really terrible thing that mom is afraid of. But, you know, I hold this alongside that other detail that when the dad buys his daughter something, the mom thinks it's love bombing. I mean, it's possible that it is. It's also possible that he's just buying his daughter a gift. Especially because he doesn't live with them anymore. Who knows? The problem is our friend's sister has a very specific land.

through which she interprets things, right, including and especially her ex's behavior. And again, I can appreciate why. I'm not trying to defend this guy, okay? This dude assaults it and threatened to kill her. He's a POS. So she's not completely wrong for having her guard up, but... But her anger toward him, her fear, that might be coloring, otherwise relatively innocent aspects of his relationship with his daughter.

Yeah, and separating all of that out is really hard. There's something similar going on with the fact that the grandfather tags along for their visits. The mother thinks that that's confirmation that the grandfather doesn't trust his son around his daughter, but he might just be tagging along because he wants to see his granddaughter. That was kind of my thought. I mean, here's the thing. Did he actually say that to the sister? Did he literally go, look, I'm concerned about Tim, okay? I don't like the idea of him being alone with Natalie. I'm going to tag along to keep an eye on things so you don't have to worry. Or was he just like, yeah, it's a long drive for Tim and I'd love to see Natalie too, so I'm going to come along if that's

all right and the mom's like, see, even his own father doesn't trust him. That's why he's, so, look, it's so hard to know how much of this is the mom spinning a yarn and how much this is grounded in actual evidence. And I will say, normally I would just never believe the abuser's version of events because these people are, you know, kind of crappy. But the mom has this weird sort of believing in all kinds of weird other dumb crap. So it's like, oh, you've really shot your credibility in the foot, big time. We're back to that theme. of competing narratives, unreliable narrators, and how to reconcile different versions of the same story. It's so tricky. Also, we're back to the theme of which stories we choose to tell and which

ones we choose to believe. So how can you reassure your niece when she's troubled by these thoughts about her dad? Well, Dr. Margolis wasn't sure that you can because, again, the cat is already out of the bag. Her mom has already said this thing to her. You just don't know how dangerous her father truly is. You also don't know whether anything you say is actually going to reassure your niece at this point. So Dr. Margolis's take was that it's probably more important to appreciate what your niece thinks about all of this. She was curious to know, has your niece ever said that she feels uncomfortable or in danger when she's around her dad? Has he said anything or done anything that's made her feel unsafe? Does having her grandfather at these visits make her feel better? Your niece's experience of all of this,

that's a really important gauge. If she says, no, my dad actually doesn't make me feel that way at all. It's actually nice and normal when we hang out. Then maybe you can help her trust her instincts and stay connected to them alongside these troubling thoughts and perhaps tell her mom, mom, I appreciate your concern, but I'm not worried about dad and I don't feel unsafe.

On the other hand, if she says, actually, you know, I do kind of feel weird around him and sometimes he says inappropriate stuff, he makes weird jokes or he looks at me in a weird way I'm so glad grandpa's there because I don't like being alone with dad, anything like that. Then I would encourage your niece to trust her gut and speak up about whether she wants to see her dad and if she does see him under what conditions. Dr. Margolis' big insight was that the real question you're probably asking here is how do I

not feel so powerless in this situation? Because when we feel powerless or we feel out of control, we often want to take action, right? We want to do something, something concrete, something immediate, something decisive. But oftentimes, we don't realize that just listening to somebody, being there for them, providing emotional support, that's also doing something, and it's doing something very important. Her take was that the most important thing you can do for your niece is to continue to just be there for her, and let her know that if anything ever happens, you're going to be her advocate, you're going to be her protector, you're going to be her friend. And part of that is gathering this information from her. I mean,

she's a more reliable source and frankly a more relevant source of information here. This special bond that you have with her is wonderful. I mean, she came to you with this information. So you're in a great position to take that in and say, I hear you. So what do you think? How do you feel? And what do you want? And then to decide what to do, if anything. Agreed. But look, hey, if you find out that her father has done something to his daughter or he has a history of hurting people in this way, especially kids, yeah, you intervene more strongly. You call your sister, you tell her, you have your niece come and stay with you if she needs to. You call the cops. You call CPS. You report this guy, whether or not, anything has already happened to your knees. But right now, based on what you shared,

nothing has happened. And I don't want to be that guy who's like, yeah, wait until somebody gets molested or assaulted before you're doing it. I mean, that's not what I'm saying here. There just doesn't seem to be a history of any sexual abuse. And it just doesn't sound like you have compelling evidence that this would likely happen. It almost sounds like your sister read some crap on the internet. It was like, oh, people who do this one thing can also do this other thing and it's like, dot, dot, dot, or invisible dot, invisible dot, non-existent dot connected. He's going to attack my daughter. I mean, it's just, I understand why she's concerned, but is it credible?

Dr. Margolis also pointed out that your niece's feelings would probably play a role in any custody decisions between her parents. She's under 18, so a court doesn't necessarily have to do what she wants, of course, but she is old enough that a court would probably take her feelings into consideration when deciding which parents she lives with, whether she gets to see her dad, how often, what the conditions are. So being able to articulate her feelings, making sure the adults in her life are attuned to them, Dr. Margolis said that that's really important. So that's how you can help the most right now and gather the data you need to decide whether you should intervene more strongly.

By the way, your niece is very lucky to have you looking out for her, especially with parents like these. Sending you both a hug, wishing you all the best, and big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. you can learn more about her and her approach at Dr. Aaron Margolis.com. You know, it's a great way to buy your child's love, Gabriel. The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable,

I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. or you can email me Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. Hey, if you're lazy, you can't remember the name of the sponsor. I will happily dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

All right. Now back to Feedback Friday. What's next? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I recently got a huge opportunity at work. I've been tapped to be the lead consulting architect for a very cool project for a Fortune 10 company. This is hands down the most interesting and important project I've ever gotten to work on. Well, that's super exciting. Well done, man.

The problem is that I'm now drowning in non-disclosure agreements, NDAs. We aren't even allowed to use the company's real name on internal communications. I can't talk about the nature of the project, who it's for, or what I do as part of it. I've been trying over the last year and a half to focus on networking and being more authentic. It's changed my life for the better, but this exciting work development is going to make that complicated. How can I still be authentic in my relationship building when I'm not allowed to be. to talk about one of the biggest aspects of my life, as dictated by a hyper-litigious mega-corporation, signed a clandestine consultant attempting to comport candidly.

What, Verizon isn't going to allow you to talk about their new cellular towers in Afghanistan? What a drag, man. I'm playing. He didn't tell us. That wasn't in a letter, no. Yeah, he didn't tell us that either, just for clarity here. So it's a good question. Tons of people deal with this challenge, whether they work in government or they have a security

clearance or they're working for a stealth startup and they need to protect certain information. It's a little tricky, but honestly, this doesn't need to be a huge obstacle. We wanted to talk to somebody who's had a lot of experience networking while dealing with NDAs. So we reached out to a buddy of ours, a former senior official on the National Security Council at the White House who now works in the biotech world. He, of course, asked to stay anonymous, which is kind of perfect in a segment about how to talk about your work without talking about your work. So the first thing our friend said was Go read the NDA in detail. Figure out how long the term is, what the scope of it is, how much it really constrains you.

Maybe it's only a year, and then you can talk about your work. Fine. Maybe you can talk about the general work without going into the details. I know you said they're strict, but in what ways are they strict? Our friend's take is, even if you can't talk about what you're doing or who you're doing it for, you can almost always still talk about your skills, your general experience. So if you're a solutions architect or an engineer or whatever, you can talk about what programming languages you use, the kinds of analysis you're doing, the general hardware you're working

with, the project management that goes into your job. Obviously, you can't say, I'm working on a new AI solution for Google that's going to write people's emails for them before they even ask. I don't know. But you can say, I'm working with a Fortune 10 company to design a cool new product. I'm using Python. I'm architecting the whole backend. I'm managing X people to do why work, whatever it is. Our friend said that he knows, you know, literal CIA officers who, of course, are not allowed to talk about their work, but they can still talk about their skills and interviews, they can still write their resumes with the CIA's approval, they can still talk about their knowledge, their leadership. So in his view, you're probably being overly

conservative about this. To quote him here, nobody really cares. No matter how secretive you think things are, usually not that secretive. And that's coming from a guy who was, yeah, literally in the for some truly high level and terrifying ish at the highest levels of government. So I really wouldn't sweat this too much, man. And also, nobody cares that much where you work. They care about the problems you are solving. Whether you have technical chops, whether you're reliable, where you're doing this work is secondary.

Fortune 10 company or Fortune 50 company or just massive corporation you've definitely heard of. That kind of says it all. And if you're truly concerned, book a 15-minute consult with a lawyer, have them weigh in on your NDA, they'll tell you what you can and cannot say, and then you can sleep at night. Yeah, I agree. I think he's being overly cautious here. More importantly, I'm not sure that these NDAs really have much bearing on whether you're authentic

with people. I know you want to be open, you don't want to be cagey, you don't want to have to tell a whole story to cover up what you do. I get it. But there's a way to be discreet and still be authentic. You can also just come right out and say, well, my client is super protective, kind of paranoid, and they made a sign all these NDAs. So I want to be respectful of that. But yeah, basically I'm the lead consulting architect for a really big company and I'm helping them build this really cool new product that's going to make their users' lives a whole lot easier. And then just maybe you give them more information if they even ask.

If you can't be authentic by being totally transparent, then I would just be transparent about the fact that you can't be totally transparent because in this case, that's what's authentic. Exactly. Just call it out rather than trying to hide the ball. But also, to quote our friend here again, oversharing about your work. that doesn't make you authentic either. So keep that in mind too.

Yeah, that was also a great point. And again, I'm just not convinced that these NDAs need to dictate his authenticity. They only dictate how he talks about his work. And even then, they might not hold him back in the ways that really count. And hey, congrats on the new gig. I hope you do allow yourself

to brag about this new gig safely because it sounds very cool. And break a leg, as long as that's not also prohibited by your NDA. You imagine they're like, do not snowboard because you're not allowed to break any bones for the next 18 months because we need you to deliver our new AI tool.

Thank you. That's right. Yeah. And you can't do that sitting down or something. All right. Next up. All right. So you guys probably remember that a couple months ago, we took a letter from a woman

who's psychiatrist tried to start a sexual relationship with her. Yeah. Classy, Dr. Skeesey Mc Creepenstein. That's the one, the one and only. The guy who apparently was writing a lot more than just prescriptions. So just to remind everybody, our friend wrote in and she shared that she had this history of people pleasing. She had a history of relationships with older men in positions of power, which apparently this doctor knew about. And she had very graphic emails from him that were extremely incriminating.

I just have to say, what a slime bucket again. Oh, you have problems saying no to men in positions of power? Well, here's what I think you should do. Take off all your clothes and send me some dudes. I mean, what an actual, just horrible guy. Anyway, so she was wondering whether to report him to the board or just let it go and move on because he's old, he's going to retire soon. That's right. And also because she didn't know if she had the energy to dredge the whole horrible experience up again. So we gave her a few thoughts with Dr. Aaron Margolis's help and we told her that whatever she decided to do was fair.

You know, if she wanted to report him, that's fair. And there were some good reasons to do that. And if she wanted to process this in her own way and leave it in the past, that was also fair. So she reached out to us again. and she wrote, Hi guys, your response to my question was very helpful. I feel like a lot of times I have your voices in my head when I'm thinking through things, but this time I actually needed to hear your advice out loud.

Sorry to interrupt, Gabe, but this is so funny. What do our voices sound like in a listener's head? Like, are we actually in there talking to you? I always wonder this. I like to think so. I like to think that before somebody does something totally reckless, they hear us going, well, first of all, I totally understand why you would want to run your boyfriend over in your car twice.

But, you know, I got to tell you. Yeah, but I got to tell you, not a great idea, Linda. Time to go to therapy. Betterhelp.com slash Jordan because if you're hearing our voices in your head, the least you can do is hear our promo codes from our sponsors as well. Exactly. Signed the voices in your head stopping you from having your rights read because your boyfriend's dead. How about that?

Not bad. Did you just freestyle that? Yeah, dude. off the dome, son. Not bad, man. The sign-off king over here. Anyway, I'm sorry to jump in. I'm just very touched

that you have us of running program, of running a chat GP, Gabe GPT in your head. That's just so funny to me and awesome. I hope the sound quality is as good in your head as it is on the actual show.

Yeah. Hey, we get a little bit of room noise. Js can't edit your brain waves. Not yet anyway. Not yet, but we're definitely heading in that direction. So she goes on. Before, I had two competing

and ambivalent beliefs. The first belief was that reporting would only be bad and threatening for me, and the second belief was that I should do this for society, hashtag Me Too, girl power. I hadn't considered that reporting could benefit me in any way. To be honest, I'm still not sure that it will, but I figured that just because one of those beliefs was associated with very strong negative emotions, that didn't make it more right for me. Man, this is such a great insight.

Not just recognizing that you had this. binary way of thinking, but this idea that just because a belief is associated with strong negative feelings, that doesn't necessarily make it right. Totally, yeah. It just makes it more compelling sometimes or more charged. Exactly. But if you unpack a belief and you figure out why those negative feelings exist around it, whether it's fear or shame or just a vague unease, and then figure out what those feelings are trying

to tell you, what function they're serving, then you're in a much better position to go, huh, is this belief actually true? Do I actually need to hold it? Which sounds like exactly what you did. So, hey, well done. So awesome. So she goes on, I do have these nagging feelings that what my psychiatrist did wasn't quote unquote bad enough for nebulous punishment, probably because it happened to me, whereas I would feel more strongly if it happened to a friend of mine. Yeah, working on that in therapy. Well, by the way, very common what you just described. I think most of us are like that to some degree. I think it can be hard to measure how bad something is when we're the one going through it.

Right. It's classic, can't read the label from inside the jar situation. Right. I think that's a great way to get clarity on something like this. You think, should I be mad about this? Okay, well, how would it feel if this happened to your best friend or your partner or your child? Yes. Good litmus test.

So she goes on. But it did feel better to know that reporting him wouldn't automatically result in the worst case scenario. So after hearing your advice, I wrote up the complaint and mailed it in. Wow. Congratulations. That's huge. So look, we supported you either way. You know that. But the facts of your story were so stark and so disturbing that I was like, oh gosh, this guy has to be held accountable. And I do think there are significant upsides to reporting. Namely, first of all, you're protecting other patients from this creep. But it also took a lot of courage on your part. So I'm proud of you for going through with it. It seems like you stretched yourself a little bit and hopefully feel good.

good about that. One unexpected benefit to having made the decision is the sudden silence in my head. I don't have to think about it anymore. The cycle of questions, should I, will I? That's gone. And knowing that I won't have the question, should I have done this? Floating around indefinitely is a huge relief. Yeah, I really get that. Sometimes the best part of making a decision is just having made a decision. Either way, something will come out of it, but not doing anything at all can create an open loop in your life that sometimes can eat away at you. She took a stance. There's real power in that. There's also a lot of relief, right? I think that's great. My understanding was that it could take up to 18 months to hear back from the Board of Physicians in my state if I heard it all. But the board

contacted me less than two weeks after I submitted, and I went in for an in-person interview days later. Wow. So crazy. Yeah, that's so fast. The Board of Physicians is either super on top of it or they were like, oh my goodness, we need to jump on this immediately. This is terrible. I'm shocked that they move so quickly, but this is really encouraging. So she goes on, it was almost two hours. And while the interviewers were kind, it was probably the most humiliating thing I've gone through. The interview was such a destabilizing experience, partly because they asked so many detailed questions. And so many of my responses ended up being,

I don't remember or I can't remember if this happened in the first meeting or in the second meeting. Yeah, by the way, I can also understand why that threw you off a little bit. I'm glad that these investigators were kind, but their job is to take you seriously while also giving this guy a fair shake. So I'm sure that they had to be pretty rigorous. It's got to be so hard to remember an experience like this in detail. So I'm sure a lot of people in your shoes end up answering questions like that. So I would not beat yourself up for any of that. This is why I'm always banging on about document, document, document,

because our memory is obviously far from perfect. We remember things in a unique way. Time passes. The memories degrade or they change. Well, especially in a traumatic situation like this. Definitely. When your shrink is hitting on you, your brain is not thinking like, okay, I'm going to remember every word he said verbatim,

and the date he said it and how he said it, and the order that this was, all these events went down and of what color clothes he was wearing. It's going, holy crap, is my shrink hitting on me right now? Wait, hold on, hold on. I might have to run away, I might have to fight them off. It was just, what is happening? So your memories are being recorded in a very specific way.

They're never going to be perfect because that's not what the situation, the immediate situation requires. Plus, this was not one event like a car accident. This was multiple conversations and multiple emails from the sound of it. So the timeline is even harder to track. Exactly. So give yourself some grace there. But this is a great reminder for anyone going through anything, the details of which they might have to refer back to or share with someone.

somebody else, write them down, note the date, the time, who was there, all of that, even if it's just bullet points, that'll make everything so much easier. If I didn't have hundreds of written communications from the psychiatrist, I probably would have felt terrible about the interview. If this were a he-said-she-said situation, I'm not sure how convincing my narrative would have been. It really made me feel even more empathy for people who go through these types of investigations without other evidence. Yeah, dude, this guy buried himself by hitting on you over email. I mean, what a bonehead move from a doctor. This guy is really a dumbass. He is the dumbest skisball in medical history. Also, hundreds of written communications.

Hundreds. When she first wrote in, I thought it was like, okay, he sent me a creepy email after one, or two. This guy was writing you hundreds of emails. This guy is not right in the head. He deserves to be investigated for sure, no doubt about it. But also, what an idiot. What an absolute moron. It was not a pleasant experience, but I'm pretty sure that's it for my part, which is a huge relief. The board has since requested my medical records from my therapist and primary doctors, so they are moving forward and taking it seriously. Signed, no longer in shock, because I finally talked about this pervy old doc. What if her medical records have, like, drawings of her on them from the therapist or something? There's no text here. It's just a lot of really obscene drawings

that he made while you were talking about your trauma. Creepy limericks and little sketches and drafts of the horrible emails he would send a letter. That would be so weird. This is incredible, man. I don't really have a ton to add here, so I just wanted to share this letter with you guys because I think it's a great outcome in a really disturbing story,

and I'm sure at least a few of you were invested in our friend here as we were. I also think the story is a great reminder of the very significant upsides to owning your story and speaking up when somebody does something objectively wrong, especially somebody in a position to power with a strong ethical obligation like a doctor.

it can be so daunting and stressful and sometimes embarrassing to recount the details of an experience like this. And I really do get why people hesitate or just decide like, nah, it's not worth it. But look at what happened with our friend here. She reclaimed her agency in a very disempowering situation. She held an unethical doctor accountable. She helped uphold the standards of the profession. She potentially protected other women patients from going through something similar. Yes. And she resolved this debilitating conflict. about whether to speak up about it or just let it go, which sounds very liberating, right? She said the silence in her head.

And I just think it's tremendous. And I'm also very heartened by the Board of Physicians' response here. It gives me a lot of hope for these agencies. Sometimes they can be hopelessly inefficient or hot messes, but this one actually sounds super responsive and responsible. And I just think there are some excellent ideas in here for anybody going through any traumatic situation. I agree.

Thank you again, by the way, for sharing so much of your life with us. I'm got to say, I'm especially moved by the thing she said about us being in her head. No, I'm just kidding. About the thing she said about not recognizing how bad something is when it happens to us. But if the same thing happened to somebody we know, we would probably be horrified. I think there's so much to talk about in there. I agree. I think that's fascinating, isn't it?

There's something about being in our own experience that sometimes, I don't know, miscalibrates our sense of how serious something is when it happens to us. Or maybe we often don't think we deserve compassion or protection. But when something bad happens to someone else, it's easier to go, oh, that is not cool whatsoever. I am sorry. Someone's got to step in here. There are plenty of people that would never defend themselves but would absolutely defend their friends or family. Well, it can be very vulnerable to say something bad happened to me and I need help.

I think that makes it hard for a lot of people to speak up. You know, it's so crazy. I just remembered. So years ago, I have a friend who was inappropriately touched by her OBGYN in an appointment. She went to a routine appointment. He touched her. She was like, oh, that was weird. But she kind of ignored it and brushed it under the rug because apparently she was kind of going through a lot in her life.

And she didn't really register it as an actual assault. She just thought it was kind of weird. That's how she put it. She was like, it was just weird. Also, the guy in question was a very well-respected doctor. And she trusted him. And there was also a nurse in the room. So there was a lot going on in this story.

What the heck? But then years later, someone got in touch with her and told her that this doctor, her did this to tons of other people. And suddenly my friend realized that it wasn't just weird. It was you know, like an actual, it was an assault. And suddenly she was asking herself like, why was it so hard for me to recognize what he did as abuse at the time? And as it happens, my friend had a very traumatic childhood and nobody really validated her feelings or looked out for her when she was a kid. And so it's very hard for her to speak up when she's hurt or when she's compromised now as an adult. In fact, this whole experience I'm telling you about

helped her realize that she really struggled with self-worth and the right to even own her experience and to tell other people, hey, this terrible thing happened to me and I kind of like need to talk about her, I need to do something about it. So she discounted this memory for years and almost in a weird way like borderline repressed the memory until somebody else helped her see

that what this doctor did was objectively wrong and damaging. Holy smokes. That's so sad. But yeah, it makes total sense. and I think it's quite interesting. Again, thank you for sharing all this with us. We're super proud of you. We hope the investigation goes smoothly,

and I hope you find the resolution and justice that you're looking for. This psychiatrist, oh man, I think he's going to get the book thrown at him. I mean, this guy's going to end up retiring immediately, if not more. I don't even know. He might retire and, like, lose his license at the same time. But look, that's what happens when you treat your practice

like it's your own freaking bumble account or whatever. He really did bring this on himself and is just a creep or, I don't know, is this a lonely old man who just completely abandoned his ethics and treating his patients? Either way, this is not okay. And we're sending you a big hug,

as always, definitely a consensual hug. And we're wishing you all the best. Hope you all enjoyed the show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget about six minute networking over at six minute networking.com.

And if you haven't signed up yet, check out our relaunch newsletter for the show. It's called Webit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered right to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come and check it out. You can sign up at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at Jordan Harbinger.

com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I am Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Dr. Margolis's input, well, she's a real doctor, but it's general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful,

please go ahead and share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with Amanda Katarzi, who was raised in a cult, and later sex and labor trafficked. The women were trained to be insanely submissive.

Like, you could never say no to any man. And then the men were trained in a very military way. These people are well-armed and well-trained. And it's a whole group that thinks that the world is evil, and they need to repopulate the world with their people to bring the kingdom of God. When you turn 13 in that culture, you're an adult. So to be 13 years old, being courted by men twice my age,

three times my age, to see if I would make a good wife, it was just kind of outrageous. So I moved to California to go to school, and I start training in MMA. And my trafficker was there. He was actually one of my boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know, I like you. And so now we're dating. So this is my first adult relationship.

He's twice my age at this point. And then he would always take me up to his cabin on the mountain, which was really far away from everybody else. No phone service, isolation. And it was on a Native American resident. So whatever they wanted to do to me, they could. Oops, you accidentally got gang raped. That was very common of going to go train, and then all of a sudden, now that you fought 12 rounds, now you're going to be right.

A girl ran a red light and teabone my truck. So I pull out my phone and I text my trafficker and I say, hey, I almost just died a car accident. He said, is your face fucked up? And I'm like, no. And he said, well, you're still fookable then. something isn't right here. This isn't who I want to be. This isn't what I want,

and it was like I was coming out of water. I had this moment of clarity, and I knew something wasn't right, and I knew this wasn't what I wanted, and I knew I needed to act fast in order to get out of that situation because I knew it'd get sucked back in. To hear how she escaped her dire situation,

check out episode 631 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. is sponsored in part by What Was That Like Podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-dishwashing and go, wait, what, that actually happened? You got to subscribe to, what was that like? It's real people telling the most surreal moments of their lives, and they're not just giving you the highlights. They're walking you through it from the inside as a person who actually lived it, which

means you're basically getting a front row seat to the chaos. One episode is about Scott getting locked up in a foreign jail for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, Scott. Another is Sue's parachute failing. Wow, I'm surprised she was around to tell that story. And then there's Michael who was stabbed on a bus, which makes your commute instantly feel a little bit more relaxing. Do what you think?

So if you want to hear some wild and inspiring firsthand stories, I invite you to check out what was that like. Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably. like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you

smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch,

search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.