The Jordan Harbinger Show - 967: Dad's Years of Abuse Have Come Home to Roost | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Now in his 80s, the abusive dad who made your life Hell is experiencing domestic violence at the hands of his younger wife. Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Are you making the right decision, or are you making the decision right? Now in his twilight years, the abusive dad who made your life Hell is experiencing domestic violence at the hands of his younger wife — though he would never admit to being victimized by a woman. What should you do? You're great at actively listening and asking questions to keep a conversation rolling — until the focus turns to you. How do you develop confident storytelling skills that keep an audience engaged in what you have to say? How do you manage your infatuation with multiple partners during the devil-may-care, badminton-driven casual dating phase you're going through? Despite trying to resolve numerous points of family drama by doing the right thing, you have regrets that maybe you didn't do the right thing even better. As we review the circumstances, might you consider giving yourself a damn break? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/967 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here —...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you do. get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the scoop of pure concentrated macha, powering this Baroque ceremony of life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Yeah. Dom Ariagato, I guess. Yeah. All of the energy, none of the jitters. I almost went with the artisanal whisk whipping up this macho latte of life advice, but it felt a little too easy somehow. Although you are very much an artisanal whisk of a co-host, Gabe.

In that, you can purchase me on Etsy for $7. like I did after I got back from Japan. Yeah, only $7. You got a good deal on that one, I would say. I did. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Now, our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with the variety of amazing folks. From organized crime figures, mafia, enforcers, arms dealers, drug traffickers, former jihadis, astronauts, tech luminaries, and Russian chess grandmasters. This week on the show we had Patrick Wynne, a journalist based in Southeast Asia. This guy, he got himself into a narco state that is inside of Burma. So it's a country within a country run by essentially one big narco cartel. They have their own schools, cell phone, power grid, everything, army, everything inside of Burma. It is absolutely insane.

You got to check out that episode if you haven't yet. On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play the occasional obnoxious soundbite, and compare Gabe to increasingly obscure caffeinated beverages. And or caffeinated beverage paraphernalia. Yes, correct. Yeah, that's right. Also part of our sacred tradition around here. So, hey, before we do, I wanted to share something that I've been thinking about a lot with you guys.

So this is probably inspired by Annie Duke, poker champion and authors. She was on the show a couple times. She's amazing. I think the seed of this idea came from our interview on episode 40. So I was thinking this week about how many feedback Friday letters deal with making the right decision. Like, should I quit my job? Should I say something to my partner? Should I jump to this company?

Should I invest in this thing? Should I follow my passion? Whatever it is. Every letter we take deals in some way with this theme of making the right decision. And over the last few years, I've shifted my lens on making the right decision quite a bit. Now, I don't just try to make the right decision. I focus on making the decision right or in the right way.

So in other words, I'm a lot more interested in the process by which I come to these decisions or these answers rather than on making the perfect choice so that I can secure the best possible outcome. Why? That doesn't make sense. Don't you want the best possible outcome? Okay, because A, the process by which you make a decision is largely what determines the best possible outcome.

And B, as we've talked about many times on the show, there often is not a perfect decision. So there's no way to know what a perfect decision actually is. basically all we have is the process because we might know the right process. And by process, I mean the steps you go through when making a decision, the principles and feelings and values by which you make that decision and the way you execute on that choice, all that stuff. So I wanted to share that with you guys. I know people are thinking, what if I make the right process, but I get the wrong outcome? Or what if I get the right outcome, a great outcome, but I made the decision wrong. Doesn't that change the process? Listen to that Annie Duke episode,

40. She goes through all of that. It's amazing and it will change the way you make decisions. So less right decision, more right decision, right, or in the right way. All right, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 56-year-old woman living 2,000 miles away from my parents and brother. My dad, who's now 82, was verbally and emotionally abusive and very controlling when I was growing up. He came from a very tough family of six boys and has never said that he loves me. He's also an alcoholic and a very mean drunk.

My dad also treated my mom horribly and cheated on her pretty openly. Mom finally divorced him when my younger brother left the house, and dad immediately married his latest mistress, Jane. Jane had been his employee and is only two years older than I am. As a result of this upbringing, I've always suffered from extremely low self-esteem and anxiety. I moved out of state as soon as I got out of school, and my dad and I have never been close. Despite all this, Jane and I were fairly friendly over the years,

sharing books, music, and pictures, and we visited once a year. I actually sympathized with her for having to put up with dad's behavior, especially when she lost her twin brother to suicide, which was absolutely devastating. I now have my own family and I'm doing pretty well. Then, last year, I got a call for my brother and my uncle. They told me that on my uncle's last visit, he and my cousin had witnessed Jane repeatedly hitting my dad in the face while holding his arms down with her legs as he sat in a chair. He said they had been fighting, and when my uncle and cousin went outside, she must have thought they left. But it was dark out, and they could see through the glass door. My cousin was very upset and insisted they leave, so they did.

Wow, that is dark. A 58-year-old woman hitting an 82-year-old man repeatedly in the face. That is, it's a gross scene. We've also seen cuts and bruises on my dad's face over the last couple of years. On different occasions, he told Brad that he'd slipped on the ice and told me that he had tripped over a doorstop. My dad has become pretty frail, and Jane is still an active woman, so it's reasonable to believe that she's abusing him regularly. Oh, man.

Brutal. This is very much the abused spouse covering up the abuse, which is so sad. Right. Also interesting that a man is doing this. Stereotypically, we hear about women doing this. Obviously, this happens, but I don't know if you hear about it too much. Gabe, it reminds me that story we took a few months back from the guy who got into a huge fight with his girlfriend. This was the girlfriend with the con artist dad who painted a naked mural of his daughter on the floor, I think. Was it not her? Yes, that's it. The cop showed up. Yeah, they arrest him for domestic abuse because they just couldn't believe that a woman would

hit a man and that he would push her and then I think his hand slipped and hit her. We don't really, again, we don't really know. But we talked about how prevalent domestic abuse is against men on that episode and how often men struggle to speak up about it because it can be very shameful for reasons that probably are obvious. Or because men don't even register certain things as abuse, especially men like this, like her father who grew up in tough families, right? Yeah, also that, right? He grew up with a bunch of tough brothers who probably punched each other in the face until they were like 18 and moved out. And he's like, ah, it's normal to get hit in the face sometimes when you're arguing. It's like, not really, bro. Not from

your spouse, especially. My hunches, both things are happening here. So she goes on, my brother called the small town police and my dad denied that anything was wrong. I called social services in their county and made a report of elder abuse, but I received a letter three months later stating that, quote, no case would be opened on this matter. When I called to find out why, the lady told me that she couldn't discuss it with me. Yeah, sadly very common. They probably went over there. There were no visible injuries, no sign of a fight. And then they asked your dad, hey, is there anything wrong? Anything you want to tell us? He was like, nope, nothing to see here. My family's just causing trouble. They hate my wife and they're a bunch of good for nothings or whatever.

And at that point, I mean, what can the authorities do? Right. No evidence. No testimony. That's right. And also these agencies generally can't comment on any investigation, so that's hard to know what's really going on. So the letter goes on. My brother has also confronted them both and basically threatened Jane if it ever happened again. Neither of them denied it. Jane cried and dad said everything was fine. I'm quite sure he would never admit to being hit by a woman. Well, there you go. But he didn't deny it. But it sounds like he is embarrassed. And that's, yeah, it's sad. The fact that Jane cried is interesting. Either she's ashamed that she's basically abusing her elderly husband or this guy is also maybe

tormenting her himself the way he did with his family before. I don't know, verbally, possibly physically, who knows? Maybe that's causing her to lash out and attack him back. I mean, maybe. Or maybe she just cried because she knows it's going to get her out of trouble because it worked in the past. Right. You know, fair point, this guy does have a track record of being very damaging.

You might not have the strength he once did, but it doesn't mean he can't say a bunch of hurtful stuff or try to attack her or something. And we're speculating, of course. But that wouldn't forgive what Jane is doing. But there are two of them in the relationship. None of us really know what's going on behind closed doors. They're apparently very good at lying and hiding and pretending. And it's possible that they're both hurting each other in different ways.

What a marriage, huh? Okay. So she wraps up, I'm not even sure how to feel about the whole situation. Part of me wants to protect Dad from her. but another part of me thinks that karma has finally found him and is punishing him for the horrible way that he's treated us. What, if anything, can be done now? And how do I reconcile these conflicting feelings? Signed, hitting a wall on how much to get involved in the tragedy to befall my pa when he wasn't much of a dad at all. Wow. Yeah, what a strange position to find yourself in.

Your abusive, controlling, alcoholic withholding, cheating father is now himself being abused by the woman he cheated on your mother with. Wow. So confusing. Yeah. On the one hand, your protective daughterly instincts are going, I have to save him. He's the victim. But on the other hand, you're going like, hey, this guy tortured us for years, treated us like garbage. Why should I step in now? Maybe he deserves this in some way. And you know what? You're not totally wrong. Maybe. Maybe you're not wrong. Yeah. And also maybe on some level, he's okay with us.

Well, okay. I mean, to some degree, he's choosing to stay in an abusive situation. Now, whether his faculties are all there, whether he's really in a state to consciously choose to stick with a woman who hits him at age 82 or whatever, whether there's a weird power imbalance between them. That's a little fuzzy. Look, my dad is 80 and my mom is 82. Okay. So they're both very cognizant of what's going on, but this guy, he was an alcoholic, right? So that screws up your brain. It's possible he's mentally 92 or older.

Right. Yeah. So that complicates things. but it does sound like he had at least two opportunities to speak up and say, hey, I'm in trouble here. That's true. Once when her brother confronted them and once when the police or social services or whoever presumably showed up at the house and talked to them. Exactly. He might be frail, but I still think he can say the word help or I don't want to live here anymore. He's not like 98 years old and totally dependent on this woman from the sound of it and can't talk or, you know, nonverbal.

Right. And like Gabe pointed out, we don't know whether your dad is 100% the victim and Jane is 100% the perpetrator. he could be, you know, I don't know, putting her down, controlling their finances, openly flirting with the waitress at IHop or wherever they go for pancakes on Sunday, we don't friggin' know. Do you think they're I hop people? Are you getting that vibe? I think Dad might be.

Jane, I don't know, she's probably more of a bougie bakery gal. Jane loves a good muffin. You know she does. Lemon poppy seed, I would think. Definitely lemon poppy seed. It's that sweet tart combination for Jane. Anyway, not to besmirch your dad's reputation, but he does have a bit of a track record. But here, I feel the need, Gabriel, to just sort of pause here.

I want to be totally clear. Normally, we would never blame the victim in a situation like this, especially just because, like, well, it's a guy. He must be doing something to warrant the abuse. The facts here are unique. This is a complicated guy who has abused other people in the past and had all kinds of other issues. It's not like, it's just randomly some guy. And it's like, oh, well, you know, since it's a guy, he probably deserved it. We're just trying to figure out why and speculate wildly.

Correct. The emotional math in this story is tricky. And that's part of what's so interesting about this. But it's also possible that dad really is the true victim in his old age. Could be. Let's just take a moment to appreciate the profound conflict that you're in right now. I mean, how can your empathy not kick in for a frail old man who's being pinned down in a chair and punched in the face? That's horrifying.

It's wrong. But it's also hard for you to intervene, given what he did, and especially given that he doesn't really seem interested in your help. So I don't know if there's a right answer here, ethically speaking. I also don't know how much you can do practically to protect your father. in this situation. If he's not making it easier for you to help him, if he doesn't even want that help, but here's what you should do, no matter what.

I think you and your brother need to stay close to your dad and Jane however you can. I would call or FaceTime your dad once every other week and check in, listen for any signs of distress, look for any evidence of abuse, let him and Jane know that you might be across the country, but you're involved, you care.

I would also make sure your brother is dropping by the house regularly and keeping an eye on your dad as well. He's actually in the best position to protect him because he's nearby. And then, if you can stomach it, I would try to talk to Jane directly about what's going on in her marriage, why she feels compelled to attack your father, how she's feeling about their relationship these days, what else might be going on between them you don't know about, and try to encourage her to seek some help,

therapy, support group, anger management, whatever it is, either with your dad or on her own, probably on her own. Probably on her own. I don't see Papa door stops over here going to couples therapy with Lady Poppy Seed. That's just me. She might. She might do it. She might. You know, she cried. If that was real at all, maybe this is a problem she's had her whole life. You said you had a good relationship for a while, so maybe there's enough rapport between the two of you to have this conversation. I do think you have the highest chance of success with her. Because when your brother confronted them, like Jordan said, Jane cried, which I don't know, that kind of paints a picture for me of somebody who's more vulnerable, possibly remorseful. If you engage her the right way, she might crack and open up about why things have gotten so bad between them. So yes, I would work the Jane angle for sure. But look, if Jane doesn't open up, and change or she does, she says she will, but you continue to see cuts and bruises on your dad's face, then I would definitely continue making reports. Adult protective services is probably your best bet.

You said you contacted social services. That's kind of an umbrella resource. My understanding is that it's usually a patchwork of different programs, but if you haven't tried reporting the abuse to APS yet, I absolutely would, and I would continue to do so as long as you think there's something going on in the house. They tend to take these things pretty seriously, although like all government agencies, obviously APS is far from perfect, it might take them a little time to respond. And if you ever need more targeted advice, or look, if your dad and Jane ever reach a crisis, like you think he might be in immediate danger, your brother can't get over to the house in the next 10, 15 minutes, then obviously call 911.

I would also call or text the National Domestic Violence Hotline. They have a ton of great resources about how to identify abuse, how to come up with a safety plan for a victim, which is really important, all of that. We're going to link to their website in the show notes for you. Another option, you might want to consider hiring a geriatric care manager for your father, also known as an aging life care professional. Now, these people are an expense, of course, but if Jane needs some support, and as your dad gets older and his needs evolve, this is a good option to consider

because aging life care professionals, they are experts in assessing an older person's needs, and you better believe they are not going to put up with an 80-something-year-old man with cuts and bruises on his face on a regular basis. I'm assuming they're also mandated reporters and they know the ins and outs of the system. They can also act as a middleman between your dad and you and your brother, which might give you guys a much-needed buffer.

We're going to link to the Aging Life Care Association website in the show notes. They have a directory to find a professional near you. One last idea. You might want to consider guardianship or conservatorship over your father if things get worse, which basically means that another person

could be you, your brother, maybe a person appointed by the state, although I might avoid that unless it's your only option, that person obtains the authority to make decisions for your dad. They'd oversee his health care, his living situation, his finances, basically the Britney Spears arrangement. But as far as we know, this is only going to work if your father can be legally proven incompetent. And it doesn't sound like he's quite there yet. You can learn more about that from your local health and human services department or again,

adult protective services. And we're going to link to a bunch of other articles and organizations on hotlines that we've found. Check out the show notes, go through all of them that's going to be very helpful for you right now. So, look, this is a really tragic situation on multiple levels. But if your dad doesn't want help here, it might be pretty hard for you guys to really intervene. Dark Jordan is going, okay, your dad controlled and abused you guys. He didn't address his addiction. He tore the family apart.

He drove you away. Screw this guy. He's on his own. You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it. But the other more decent non-Bain part of me is going, this is a traumatized man who's now much more vulnerable. and he deserves help. I'm with you, but then there's also the whole question of his agency and his wants. I mean, as long as he's somewhat lucid and he could change the situation if he wanted to,

then it's weird to arrive at this position, but you might need to learn to accept his choice, as painful as that is. But what's really hard about that isn't just that it means watching your father stay in a potentially dangerous situation. What's hard is that it puts the burden back on you to process your own sadness and anxiety and grief about your father and his situation these days and probably your whole childhood and to do that on your own, which is very hard and it's also very confusing and will probably be an ongoing process as long as your dad is alive. Right, which is why I hope you're finding your own support for this. Insert standard feedback Friday plug for therapy here. You know what we're about to say.

You've been through a lot here. You deserve a place to work through all this. But you and your brother are doing a lot right here and your dad is remarkably lucky to still have you guys looking out for him after how he conducted his life, really. You're doing great. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what's better than a lemon poppy seed muffin, Gabriel, which is an admittedly low bar, although some people really love those things. The fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here, although Gabriel, you're sitting in the dark right now. So maybe people need to step it up a little bit. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you hear on the show so you can check out the sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Okay, what's next? Hey, guys, I'm a fantastic listener and have the ability to ask questions of people to continue conversations, but when the spotlight is on me, I feel I have room for improvement. I would love to be a better storyteller and feel confident that I'm holding deserved attention. and interest from the people I speak to. You're obviously pretty successful conversationalists. Is this a skill you naturally possess and have refined over the years? Or is this something you've had to learn? Do you have any recommendations to improve in this department?

Signed, the uneasy order, looking for some pointers. Oh, wow. You went off the rails. Really hammered the square peg through the round hole on that one. You know, I thought I could like maybe skate by, but the second it came out of my mouth, I was like, nah, that doesn't. That doesn't work. I got to say these out loud. Nails on a chala keyboard. This is a good question. I mean, I admittedly zoned out halfway through it. Something, something I'm a great listener. Storytelling, being a good conversationalist, this is a skill in life no matter what you do. And like any skill, it's something you can learn and you don't need to be like Ira Glass or Bruce Springsteen to captivate people. But just being a little bit better at this, it can help you pop at work on dates with friends. Plus, I find it really fun. So this is definitely something that I have had to learn. I used to be painfully shy.

I've said it on the show before, but I'm not even, that's not just like, oh, I used to be shy, like everyone else. I used to not want to talk to pretty much anyone. I had trouble making eye contact with people. It was weird, man. And I remember even friends of mine being like, why don't you ever look at anybody in the eye? It's so weird. That was just not a comfortable phase of my social life. This is when I was younger, obviously. So if I can come out of that and do what I do now for a living, really, I'm very confident you can become a little snails. happier at cocktail parties. So here's what I did. First, I watched and listened to a lot of stories, especially on this podcast. And of course, that happened as an adult, right? It already started the show,

but some show guests are really amazing at reeling you in. They have certain speech patterns and ways of delivering a story that you can just tell are practiced and skilled. So I absorbed a lot of that, and often I'll try to channel them when I'm telling a story of my own. Second, I read lots of books. You probably know that by listening to this podcast. I read at least like one or two books a week. That's how I learned the structure of stories, the details that need to go into stories. That was more academic, but it was also important. And as a funny aside, when I was younger, I used to read stories and I would try to memorize some of the details so I could tell them like they were my own stories, which obviously I don't really recommend doing this because

you're just lying when you do that. And it was a lot easier before the internet, right? You could read something and then go back to high school and be like, you guys are never going to guess what happened to my friend or me. And it's like they're never going to read this book. They can't Google that. But there's something in that exercise, just trying on other people's styles, kind of like training wheels for your own storytelling. I think that was extremely helpful.

And then eventually, of course, I started to tell my own stories. I got a lot of experiences. I got better at sharing them with other people. Basically, I just practiced. I also did a bunch of actual training. I took improv comedy classes in San Francisco. I stopped because at a certain level, Gabriel, I'm sure you've taken improv, right?

At a certain level, they're like, here's what you're going to do at your show. And I'm like, guys, I'm not trying to, no, I'm not trying to be like an improv actor professionally. I just want to get better at like a few things. And you top out pretty fast in improv. I took some acting classes. I took other coaching classes.

Those were mixed. I even took voice over voice acting classes. I took a 20-something day public speaking intensive. It wasn't 20 days in a row, but it was like three days. over the weekend, four different times or whatever that adds up to, five, six different times. And Gabe, I know you took that singing for actors class years ago. That seemed pretty good. There was some weirdos in that class. It was wild. But that class, I got to say, really cracked me

open. And kind of like you. Before that, I was like this very serious shut down corporate dude. And that class was like, we're going to get in touch with the like gooey, vulnerable stuff. It was amazing. It kind of changed everything, actually. Yeah. I went to, was it, it wasn't your graduation, but it was like, like a graduation of other people from the same class afterwards. Something like that. Yeah, we were both in the crowd. It wasn't mine, right?

No. But it was cool, right? It was a cool afternoon. There's people burned into my mind because there was some people where I'm like, that was a joke, right? He's not really like, this isn't how that guy is in real life. And then you're like, oh, yeah. You're like, oh, these are people's stories.

Yes. And there were some cringy stories where I was like, I know you think that makes you look like a good person, but it really makes you look like a terrible person. The fact that that's lost on you is a little bit scary. But you know what's fascinating about that is that we still are talking about it, what, eight years later or whatever? Yeah, decade later.

These details really do get burned into your memory when people focus on the right things and get vulnerable. So I think that's very much what our friend here is asking about. Exactly. Yeah. And none of this is necessary. You don't have to go and sign up for all this stuff. I probably went ham because this is my career and I could write off all this stuff.

Like, I'm going to take a 21 day speaking intensive for $18,000 or whatever it cost. and it's like, oh yeah, I don't expect you to do that. Sometimes doing a formal class can be super helpful. A good teacher and finding a good teacher really is key. It can really crack you open and put you through the paces of being a better performer. And it's fun. And now I just love telling stories. I'm always writing little anecdotes down that could be told in an interesting or funny way.

And as you know, I often share them on Feedback Friday. Gabriel and I have a whole Slack channel where I'm like, you're never going to guess what just happened. And we've got to talk about this on Feedback Friday. And here's the story, the scaffolding of this. Some of which we're going to tell on our April Fool's Day episode next week. So tune to that because we're going to get a little, we're going to let our hair down and tell some personal stories. It'll be fun.

Neither of us have any hair, but we'll try. So it's not rocket science. It's just deciding to get curious about this stuff, studying other people, putting in the time, have a little fun with it. You just need to do it a bunch to get better. I love those tips. There's nothing, and I mean nothing for me, like, hearing a great story. I'm just, I'm riveted. I love when people know how to tell a great story.

But I also think our friend here is wrestling with something even deeper than just, you know, how do I keep people interested in my tales, right? Like he said, I'm a fantastic listener. But when the spotlight is on me, I feel I have room for improvement. He said, I'd love to feel confident in that he wants to feel like he's holding deserved attention and interest from the people he speaks to. To me, these speak to probably some deeper challenges or maybe conflicts that might be holding him back in his stories.

really a big part of storytelling is just getting comfortable with the spotlight being on you and accepting other people's attention and being okay with that and owning that. I think maybe what you're looking for here is a way to address the part of you that maybe doesn't always feel like you deserve people's attention. And that is so common and it's very normal. I have that. I always get a little uneasy like, am I talking too much? Is this interesting enough? Am I being a ham right now?

Am I taking up too much space? So your letter kind of hits close to home for me, and I really, I get it. I identify with you. I also think it's very meaningful that you're a good listener. I think that's probably much more comfortable for you, which by the way is wonderful. Listening is so important. But it can also be a really good way to hide in conversations and to not take up that space and just to make it all about the other person. So I would explore what other people's interest in you brings up. You know, is there some anxiety there? Is there some discomfort? Maybe some fear. All of these, again, super common and they they are what creates these conflicts around attention it's so funny jordan this

memory just popped up as we were talking about this guy's letter so did your parents record you guys when you were kids like home video a little bit yeah we had one of those giant cameras that sits on your shoulder those uh what do you call me like camcorders totally yeah so my parents recorded us a lot and we have these amazing DVDs now of our childhoods and we were watching them recently and there was this little moment and it was so insignificant but to me it just like captured this really meaningful detail about my childhood. My mom was filming my sister and me, and I guess we were like playing, doing bits, whatever, talking. And she started recording me and I got really uncomfortable. And I was like, stop recording me, mom. I was probably, I don't know, five years old or something. And I was like,

don't, go away. And she moves the camera and right as she moves the camera over to my sister, you can hear me off camera going, wait, but wait, but I have something. And it was just like this wonderful little sliver of my childhood that captured this deep conflict I've always had about being the center of attention. I want to tell you and I want you to pay attention to me, but I'm also like, don't look at me, go away, I'm not ready or whatever. So yes, work on your craft. That's essential, but also get curious about what it's like to take up a little more space with people. That's my take. And also to be in touch with that healthy narcissism in you, which is in all of us and which is really important to indulge. Those two things, the craft and the healthy narcissism, they go hand in hand. And

but if you're not somewhat comfortable being the center of attention for a short period of time, you could tell the most amazing story and it wouldn't really land. You know, your audience can only fully relax and enjoy you to the extent that you can relax and enjoy yourself and them. Yeah, I totally agree. I wonder if when the camera panned over to your sister, did she just start dancing? My sister was a more natural performer and I was always like, I loved being behind the scenes, which is really funny because now I'm writing and directing and I definitely, I mean,

doing this podcast with you has been the most public thing I've ever done. But for the most part, I like being behind the scenes. It's where I feel most comfortable. But I've grown. I've grown in that department. Look, I agree with your sentiments here. And that's part of being a good storyteller, too, learning to take up that healthy narcissism space or whatever you want to call it and own it. My hunch is that our friend here is afraid of being a narcissist or he's just kind of uneasy about being the object of other people's attention, which is a nice problem to have. I agree. He's not an attention horror, but I think his life is going to get a lot more fun if he eases into the spotlight just a little bit more. So go get it, man. It's just practice and have fun with it. You can reach

us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your friend accidentally caused a fatal car accident and was sued for a crippling amount of money that's ruining his life. That was such a sad story last week, Gabriel. I keep thinking about that guy. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay. What's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 23-year-old woman and one year ago I broke up with my ex-boyfriend. We dated for four years and now I'm living my absolute unrestrained single life.

Since that relationship ended, I've gained sexual and romantic experience with other guys. No strings attached. Nice. So very much in your hoe phase. Congratulations. You know, full on trampage. I love it. Yeah. Look, we say this all with love just to be clear. Zero judgment. You're 23. This is kind of exactly what you're supposed to be doing. As long as you're being safe and respectful and having fun, of course. Now I feel like an old man saying stuff like that. Yeah, I know. It's like, just be safe, darling, and you'll be fine. No, totally. This is us cheering you on from afar. Good for you. So she goes on. Six months ago, I met this guy. Let's call him Ned. Since then, we've gone on multiple dates. I first met him at a badminton tournament hosted by a friend of ours. We were

randomly paired up as a team and you could tell that there was an incredibly good vibe between us. Ah yes, Jordan, nothing sexier than badminton. Am I right? Truly, with that weird tiny paddle with a long neck. It must just be, it must be the name of the thing you hit back and forth. It has a weirdly pervy name. What is it? Oh yeah, uh, shuttlecock. Shuttlecock. That's it. I mean, you ask that cute guy and your badminton lead to hand over your shuttlecock and it's like three dates and one right there totally you play one round of bad men you're you're basically engaged i think There's something just so funny about flirting over badminton. It's like an awkward sport in many ways. It's a lot of flailing, isn't it?

Well, there's flailing, maybe not if you're doing it right, but there's a lot of lunging, a lot of deep lunging, and everyone playing badminton looks like they're kind of drunk in some ways. There's no way to just, I guess I shouldn't say no way, but few ways you can really like hammer that thing, that shuttle cock. Anyway, carry on. I slept with him that day, and we're still. Wow. This league is paying dividends. All right, I slept with him that day, and we're still texting each other and staying in contact.

He also invited me to a three-day festival for his fraternity, which was a significant event for us because I met a lot of his friends and colleagues. After the event, he texted me expressing his thoughts about us and asking what we were. I asked him what he wanted this relationship to be, and he said that he wanted to get to know me more and spend more time with me. I agreed, saying that I wanted that too. Okay, so you just decided to keep casually dating. There's something funny about this exchange. Ned's like, so, what are we? And she's like, what do you want us to be?

He's like, I want to spend more time with you. And she's like, okay. Cool. Let's do it. Yeah, I know. Cool. Is this guy secretly wishing you were his girlfriend? Do you want him to be your boyfriend?

I'm just confused about this. Did she just masterfully dodge the what are we conversation, like a champ because she doesn't want to be tied down? I personally think it's kind of a boss-level, Hophase move. She's good. She's good. She's very good. A little too good.

Yeah, she is good. Too good for her own good, I would say. So she goes on. In the period before he wrote that, you can't imagine how deeply in love I was. I didn't just have a crush on Ned. I was insanely obsessed with him. I checked every minute to see if he was online and if he would write me back. I felt deeply depressed when he didn't and nervous when he did. I was so emotionally attached to him that I began checking his Instagram and Facebook to increase my contact with him. Huh. Interesting. Well, now I'm definitely confused. If a guy you're deeply in love with, you say you're obsessed with certainly sounds like that checks out. If he says, what are we?

And he's suggesting that he wants to make things official. Wouldn't you be psyched? Or wouldn't you push the conversation in that direction? What's happening here? Did I miss something because I was signing up for a badminton league online? Maybe, possibly. You should not multitask during Feudan Friday. But I don't know, maybe she didn't want to freak him out. So maybe she was just playing it cool? Yeah, maybe. Fair enough. But I don't know. I'm confused about how she truly feels about this guy. I am. Well, I think she might be as well because she goes on, in this state, I realized that this obsession with Ned was not good for my health. Good for you.

And I decided to change my behavior. And I know you're both going to laugh about this, but what really helped was a book called The Secret of How You Can Turn His Retreat Phase into Love and other YouTube videos. Well, it did work to some extent. Interesting. This sounds a little bit like the female equivalent of pickup artist stuff that I intersected with in my early days of being a dating coach. I haven't looked into those.

That book could be totally different than I am picturing. I guess I'm glad it worked. But I'd be curious to know what those resources are teaching women to do. If it's manipulative siops to get a guy to chase you or whatever, I obviously have some reservations. But hey, glad you found something that was useful. I'm just not a fan of the old game playing long term. It just always blows up in your face.

But anyway, carry on. The only game you want to be playing is badminton, I think. That's right. Apparently. Letter goes on. But then, through a badminton court, at my campus, I met a new guy. Andrew. Dude, what is happening in this badminton scene? I know. What a meat market this is. Does everybody know about this? Yeah, first of all, we're going to get

30 emails that are like, y'all aren't playing badminton? What you're, yeah, Gabe, you're still single, man. You need to sign up for badminton right now. I'll wait. I just order my shuttle cock on Amazon. So I'm already on it. Yeah, a variety pack. I'm going to start recommending this to listeners asking for advice on how to meet people. Just play the dorkiest sports ever. You know, not pickleball. No. No, forget pickleball. Badminton is where it's at. It's funny. This whole badminton thing, Jordan, is giving me strong the vow vibes. You know the nexium documentary? I do know. Oh, how all the people in that cult played volleyball to like four o'clock in the morning and flirted with one another on the sidelines in this weird way. Keith Reneery with his tie-dye shirt and his

headband, so good. Sweating through his 80s athletics ensemble and his like hair dripping in his face. Yeah, This is like the cute version of that creepy thing. I wonder if he's playing volleyball in prison during his life sentence. I doubt it. No, yeah, this is all the banter and none of the branding. So far. So far. Yeah, I know this is Feedback Friday.

This could go anywhere. There could be some burns coming up. No branding in this story, I can assure you. So she goes on, after one game, Andrew wrote to me, and a few days later, we had a date at his house to bake cookies. It was very nice and cozy, but it didn't progress in a sexual way. Wow. Bad baking cookie.

this is this is quaint yeah where did this date take place like Pleasantville I'm just like yeah the cookie date it's I guess it's he was going for cute as hell and maybe he achieved that but it's also very 1950s he was like how do I not get laid on this date under any circumstances I don't know man I think the cookie date could get you late I don't know I think that's pretty adorbs I don't well I'm just going by the results here that's true there wasn't a vibe nope maybe he went with the wrong cookie like he went with a weird like you know like those no walnuts next time Yeah, don't do the sugar cookies with the frosting. Go for something fun, oatmeal, chocolate chip. All right, that's all the cookie knowledge. You're killing the joke.

Just keep on trucking. I'm now at the same point with Andrew that I was with Ned, but now it's Andrew to whom I'm emotionally attached. Oh. And I can't discern what I'm feeling for Ned since the contact with Andrew developed. Is this what dating is about? How can I manage my feelings for Ned and Andrew? and how can I make this obsession with guys who show interest in me go away in the long term?

Signed, try not to go mad while pining for two lads. Yeah, there's a lot going on here. Okay, look, the feelings and the behavior you're describing, they're fairly common and to some extent normal in the early phases of a romantic relationship. I mean, how can you not get excited and a little nervous when somebody texts you, and how can you not be a little bummed when they don't? Yeah, this is basically what having a crush is. Totally, man.

And it's part of the fun, and it's why, yeah, I won't go down that road, but it's part of the fun of a new relationship. But there might be some other angles to this roller coaster, because I do find the whole obsession thing interesting for many reasons, because it does sound like something more intense and potentially more chaotic is happening when these guys take an interest in you. Right. There's a difference between excitement and obsession. Right.

There's a difference between, ooh, my heart beats a little faster when I see his name pop up on my phone. And between that and, like, I can't. sleep at night because I'm coming up with names for all seven of our future children. That's, yeah. One of those names is definitely shuttlecock. Solid pitch. I'd go with that as a middle name, however. Yeah, like Billy Shuttlecock O'Loughlin. The third. So I would take some time to, I don't know how you're going to manage the third, but I would take some time to explore how these obsessions develop, why it becomes so compelling to fixate and check in on the guys you like.

Gabriel, to me, this is like a middle school kind of thing. and she's 23. And it's like, are you too old to be doing that? Or did she just not date enough because she had that boyfriend for so long that she missed this whole phase of going through like these awkward motions? I hear you, but I also think that early 20s

you're still very much figuring this stuff out. And some of these relationships are new and she's in college and maybe she hasn't felt the strongly about people before. So I do think she might still be in that phase where she's feeling things for the first time and sorting through all of it. Fair.

Yeah, it's early in the game. I would also be curious to know if you found a similar pattern with other guys you like, or if this is just unique to Ned and Andrew. If it's more global, then this is definitely a pattern worth unpacking. There's probably an attachment style element at play here, and probably a whole world of stuff going back to childhood. There always is, right?

Which, by the way, that's why I commend you for recognizing that something just wasn't quite healthy about the way you were interacting with Ned. You stopped checking his Instagram 17 times a day. You stopped reading baby name websites or whatever it was. That was smart. sometimes we do need to change our behaviors in order to change our feelings. But again, I would invite you to consider why this behavior developed in the first place.

What I would be curious to know is, what is it about keeping tabs on a guy you like that feels so compelling? What are you hoping to achieve there? And what effect is this behavior having on your feelings about yourself, about the relationship? Do you ever feel like your interest in a guy becomes more important than your own needs? Do these crushes ever start to dominate your life and take focus away from your own goals? If this obsession you described feels painful in some way, that's a signal that it's functioning in a certain way that it just might not be healthy. And that's something that needs to be addressed. And I wish I could tell you what that function is, but that's what you have to figure out.

This would also be a great topic, by the way, to explore in therapy, but I'm not going to bang on about that. Now, about Andrew, your new badminton smoke show, it sounds like this is a sweet relationship is developing there. And I'm still thinking about your little cookie date. I mean, it's wholesome. Yeah. I'm just glad they weren't baking lemon poppy seed muffins.

Oh, no. That would have been a major red flag. That's right. If your date wants to bake lemon poppy seed muffins at home, just run. Nothing good can come from this situation. You want chocolate, red velvet,

something with frosting. Yeah. Actually, it's funny. I kind of like lemon poppy seed muffins. I don't know why we're hating on them so hard in this episode. They're actually kind of good. They're delicious.

It's definitely a muffin you appreciate as you get older? That's an older man's muffin. Well, until you hit brand muffins. I'm not there yet. That's the next. That is the next phase of the muffin development framework. Yeah, yeah, definitely. The MDF. Yes. Once you hit brand territory, you're living on borrowed time at that point.

But look, since you're finding the same experience you had with Ned happening with Andrew, I definitely think it's time to dig into this pattern. Basically, if these feelings cause you distress, as opposed to just that vaguely nauseating but mostly pleasant butterflies in your stomach kind of feeling, then there's probably some unresolved stuff at play here. In addition to just the low-key stress of liking somebody, right, which is normal. Now, not being able to discern what you feel for Ned since you started seeing Andrew, that could mean a couple things. Either you like Andrew more now and your feelings for Ned have cooled, which is perfectly fine, or you're actually more inclined to focus on one person

at a time, not multiple people, like ye old, ho-fei is notwithstanding. Or this relationship with Andrew is becoming obsessive again, and part of that obsession is fixating on one guy at the expense of other guys, even if he's not her guy. That's a good point. When she gets really into a new guy, she might get some like tunnel vision kind of deal, and suddenly the only person who matters is the latest one to stir up those feelings. So is this what dating is all about? The short answer, I think, is yes.

You're meeting different people. You're spending time with them. You're exploring your feelings. You're letting those feelings evolve. Either they grow deeper or maybe they cool or maybe they become something else like friendship. And through all of that, you're learning about yourself, which is wonderful. So yeah, you're playing. I think it's great.

But that doesn't mean that dating should be distressing or chaotic or confusing most of the time. That's not what dating is about. Or rather, it's not what it should be. So you're not wrong or bad for having these feelings or engaging in these somewhat obsessive behaviors. I mean, look, to quote the great poet Rihanna, you got love on the brain. My friend? Ah, yes. The great prophet, Our Lady Rearie.

In her name, we slay. All right. But I would approach these tendencies with as much curiosity as you can and just try to find out why you have this response to the men you're interested in. As for your other question, how can you manage your feelings for Ned and Andrew? I guess my question there would be, what does manage mean to you? Does it mean stuffing those feelings down? Does it mean figuring out what to do with those feelings?

Which I think is the better question. Does it mean making space to have feelings for both of these guys? If what you're asking is, how do I make these feelings less painful, then again, to Jordan's point, that's about unpacking how you relate to romantic partners, what these relationships are bringing up for you. It's not about suppressing them or pretending they don't exist, because then they're just going to go underground and probably get stronger, and then they're going to dictate your life even more.

So as for making this obsession with guys who show interest in you go away in the long term, again, you're not going to get very far by trying to make the event. obsession go away. Instead, I would follow Jordan's advice again. If you can get to the roots of this pattern, you'll probably find that the obsession will calm down on its own. Yeah, it's interesting, Gabe. A lot of her questions seem to be about tucking away her feelings or like wiggling out of them, right? She wants to manage her feelings. She wants to make this obsession go away. I think that's actually the heart of her letter. It's not her specific feelings for Ned or Andrew or the next cute guy she meets at badminton, but how she deals with her feelings in general.

I think that's right. And actually, that's part of the value of the ho face, right? It's not just about sewing your wild oats. It's about discovering these parts of herself through these relationships, digging into them and growing. So there you have it. Don't play badminton with your emotions. No more smashing your feelings across the net like a shuttle cock you're trying to get rid of.

Exactly. I think it's time to bounce those feelings on your racket a few times and see how they move and learn. I don't know. That's the end of this weird badman metaphor. That's all I got. I don't think that would work. Yeah, not with a shuttlecock. Yeah, same here.

Not my sport. Good luck. You know who else is in their ho-phase? Handing out their deals and discounts left and right. The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do,

which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. So learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show. Visit Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Or you can email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. If you're super lazy, you can't remember the name of a sponsor, I will happily dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my brother and I have always had a complicated relationship. Growing up, we were skilled in making everything look friendly

and peaceful from the outside, but behind the scenes, we barely tolerated each other. He's two years older than me, and my life began with an unending cycle of sibling rivalry. My brother relied heavily on his physical size to control situations, forced cooperation, and dominate conversations. He was physically abusive and even inappropriately sexually expressive when no one was looking. In our family, the public image was a far higher priority than interpersonal relationships. Wow. Okay. So that's a difficult sibling to have. Sorry to hear all this. Yeah, it sounds like a tough home as well. The whole keeping up appearances thing in families really gets to me.

It's awful, right? It's always a cover for something. As long as everybody sees us in a certain way, that's all that matters. Meanwhile, one brother's kicking the other in the ribs and taking his junk out while they're playing Nintendo or whatever. And the other brothers looking around like, what is this dude's problem? Why is nobody looking out for me? If his brother was doing this when they were young, I wonder what was going on with him. I mean, he must have been working something out.

God knows what. So I guess I feel for him on that level. but it sounds like your parents were not really looking out for you or didn't foster a very safe relationship between you and your brother, and that really sucks. It's incredibly sad. It must have been super hard for this guy. Anyway, carry on.

As an adult, I found that the best way I could remain healthy was to live far away. I relocated to Alaska and began building a life that I loved. Dude, Jordan, can you imagine how bad it must be to move to Alaska? Yeah, I mean, not that there's anything wrong with Alaska, but that's the furthest away you can go. No, it's just like the farthest away you can possibly go. he just wanted to put as much distance between him and his family. Like, they can't just pop over.

You got to cross Canada. You got a book ticket. Like, yeah, you're not driving over to bug you. Meanwhile, my brother, throughout his 30s and 40s, spent most of his time living with my parents. Finally, when my dad retired, my parents decided to move from California to Missouri. The move was also my dad's last ditch effort to gently kick my brother out of the nest. Okay. Well, wow.

The creepy kid with unaddressed behavioral problems, mooched off mom and dad all the way through his 40s. What a surprise. Also fascinating that their last ditch effort to gently kick him out was to move across the country. Yeah, that's a good point. Seriously, it wasn't like, hey, son, look, you're 38, it's time to build your own life. It was, so we're moving to Missouri, you know, New Leaf and all that. And so you just might want to start making plans. No rush or anything.

No rush. We're just letting you know that's what we, mom and I are doing as they wander out of the room and just pray they never have to have this conversation again. Like, he's going to get the message this time, for sure. So he goes on, my brother moved to Tennessee and took up residence in the basement of a cousin's house. This guy. Sorry, I'm not being very nice, but I have just so little sympathy for people like this. So this dude just goes from one cushy couch to another.

He doesn't want to build his own life, or maybe he just can't. He can't get it together. Then, eight weeks after moving to Missouri, my dad was clearing his land so that he could build my mother a house when his tractor rolled over and killed him. Oh, my God. Okay, that was unexpected. I am so sorry. That's incredibly tragic, and that is a sad way to go. So sad, while he was doing this sweet thing for his wife.

Yeah, no joke. That must have been very painful for all you guys, and I am so sorry that that happened. When I flew down for the funeral, my brother and I met to discuss things. He said, someone's going to have to come and take care of mom. I'm working so hard over here not to blow a gasket. Like, I'm tensed up, in part,

because I didn't know tractors could roll over that easy, that freaked me out a little bit. Not that I ever plan on driving a tractor. But also, yeah, oh, someone's going to have to come take care. I can just imagine this guy saying it that, this certain way, and it's making my skin crawl. Your shoulders are up around your ears right now. I know. He's a work, this guy. He is. Oh, someone's going to have to come take care of mom. No, not the guy who has no prospects for life or ambition who lived with said mom until he was like 48 years old. No, it's got to be the guy who moved away from his abusive slash neglectful family, built a life he truly loved that. Yeah, someone's going to have to come take care of mom.

I just, I don't like this at all. Not one bit. Not one bit. When I acknowledge that, he said, well, I'm finally living my dream in Nashville. So, no, you aren't. The implication being, you'll have to do it. What dream, dude?

The dream of living in your cousin's basement rent free while you're hurtling aimlessly towards 50 being the oldest couch surfer on record in any basement in America? This dude is so useless. So useless. Brutal take, but you're on one today. I get it. he's getting on your nerve. So he goes on, you know, because running a small farm took more effort

than working for a temp agency, living in our cousin's basement, watching porn nonstop, and eating his way to morbid obesity. I didn't even know this was that bad. So he does have a job, okay, but it's not a steady job. I'm guessing he makes just enough money to put gas in the car and buy groceries, a lot of unhealthy groceries from the sound of it. So this is interesting, right? His brother sounds like an addict, two addictions, pornography, food. So he's, probably in a lot of pain and he's numbing. Yeah, okay, fine. You're making me take this from a more sympathetic route.

Like I said, if you're hurting your sibling at three, four years old in those weird ways, like with your sexual, something happened to you or something didn't happen to you. So in a way I feel for the guy, but come on, man, you're an adult now. You're a grown-ass middle-aged man with theoretical responsibilities that you are not fulfilling. If he has time to rub one out six times a day and go through eight boxes of Oreos, he's got time to check in on his mom down the road and make sure she's okay. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, of course.

He's not running a business or married with kids in another state. I mean, he's way more available than our friend here, and he frankly owes his mother more. He just doesn't want to. That's all this is. He doesn't want the responsibility. It's so disgusting. So I quit my two jobs in Alaska, sold practically everything I owned and moved to rural Missouri. This is hard, Jordan.

I'm having a strong reaction to this part of the letter. but I will hold off. You are bummed that he caved and moved out there. I mean, me too. I'm sure he had his reasons. Maybe it seemed like the only option at the time, but man, I would have loved to be able to talk to him back then and just, I don't know, help him think through that decision

because this life he was building in Alaska sounds really healthy and very special. I'm with you completely. I think mom would have ended up moving to Alaska once we got done with him. But this is what happens in so many families where one sibling is just a freaking deadbeat and good for nothing neyer do well and yes i've been waiting to use that word on the show for a decade did you say nay er neyer do well yes i've never heard it pronounce that way i always heard neer do well but what's a

nagier you were making fun of me for the orator thing earlier you're going to hit me with the neyer do well i mean it does have like an apostrophe in this weird place john mayer do well he's he's this guy's not capable he's selfish and the other sibling is compassionate he's responsible and i think he's too responsible. Possibly. And of course, the responsible one steps in because it's like, well, somebody's got to do it and it's not going to be the guy who can't peel himself off the sticky couch until 1130 in the morning. You're welcome. So gross, but accurate. You're welcome. And I can't say blame him for stepping in, but there might have been other scenarios to explore, but that's neither here nor there, I guess. So he goes on, this was tough for a lot of reasons.

First, I hated it here. Second, I'd left the friendships I'd built over several years and moved to a place where it was tough to find anyone I had anything in common with. Third, the economic opportunities in Missouri are so far below any place I've ever lived that I had to set aside any semblance of the life I found fulfilling. I'm not a materialist by any stretch, but finding myself living in a single wide trailer in the woods is a big step down. Ah, see, this is why I'm angry. This is tough. Yeah, I'm right there with you. It just sucks he had to sacrifice this much. But to your point, he did choose on some level to do that. We should come back to that.

But then, after a time, I met a wonderful woman. We got married and now have a family. Okay, so this is amazing. So it's interesting. It does complicate the picture a little bit in the, you know, cosmic sense. This terrible thing happened. He gave up a lot, but then it did put him on a path for this incredible thing to happen, which is wonderful. Yeah, and that's life.

So interesting. Doesn't mean it was the best move, though. I'm just happy that something good came out of it instead of just an ending punishment. About a year after our marriage began, my mother suffered a stroke. My wife, by then pregnant with our daughter, suggested we move my mother in with us. We did, and my mother was well taken care of and living in a nice, comfortable home. What little money she had trickling in went untouched into her savings account. My wife and I took her all her medical appointments and involved her in things like evening walks, gentle exercise, and the occasional outings. Amazing.

Man, you're killing the son game, and your wife is killing the daughter-in-law game. That is one lucky mom. That's all I can say. That's great. Good for you. But my brother would frequently call and berate my wife and me telling us all the ways he would handle things differently. Not interested. Not interested in hearing his opinion. But of course, yes. For all the elderly, this guy is such a good for nothing, clown. He would call nearly every evening, at which point my mother would hobble into her private bedroom to have their conversations. Ooh, that's not good. You know some bullshit's afoot when mom is hobbling into her room to have these secret conversations with the other sibling. Yeah, she already knows she can't have the conversation in front of them and just like,

oh, it's time to go talk shit about my son who's taking care of me and his wife. This is making me sweat a little, and I do not like where this is going. My mom's late evening private chats with my brother continued for a couple of months. Then one day, she announced that she was moving to Tennessee to live with him. He got to her. My brother, who was always asking my mom for money. My brother, who had been evicted by this time from multiple places, including my cousin's basement. My brother, who was too busy, quote unquote, living his dream to even consider taking care of my mom when my dad died. But I digress. Uh, no, sir, you do not digress. This is very much the point of your story. Right. This is literally what the story is about. Your brother and how he's locked into

some kind of weird, creepy, petty, vaguely nefarious battle with you over your mother? Exactly. The Norman Bates School of Sibling Rivalry. Right. So my mother left with my brother three days before her first granddaughter's first Christmas. Yuck. That must have hurt. Yeah, well, especially after taking such good care of her and she just bounces before Christmas like you're not worth the time. I just, I kind of have beef with mom now. She picked the wrong sibling. And she knows the guy is a turd. She knows, but that's a whole other rant. She might not, you know. As his mother, she might have really big blind spots. But, There's probably so much going on with her.

Anyway, letter goes on. Over the next several years, I'd call weekly and catch up with my mom. My conversations with my brother were infrequent and uncomfortable. On several occasions, he'd let me know that they were going without food, losing their utilities or some such crisis. On multiple occasions, my family and I drove the eight-hour trip to buy groceries for them and keep my mom healthy. Ugh, I hate that.

Now I'm wondering if you wanted your mom out there as a bargaining chip, Like, hey, I've got my bank in the house with me, so I no longer have to mooch from her. I can just take it or whatever. And attention out of you. It's so gross and depressing and dysfunctional. Ugh. During this period, my brother also had a stroke, after which he became more openly belligerent and insulting, often excusing his behavior by simply saying, I have a brain injury.

Oh, you want another brain injury, pal? I'm deep breathing over here, Gabe. I'm finding myself having very dark Jordan thoughts about this man. This guy is such a horrible person. Finally, my brother contacted me and said that they were being evicted from their apartment and wanted me to look for a place for them here in Missouri. Wait, after all that, back to Missouri? Back to Missouri?

And of course it falls on our friend here again. Again. Unbelievable. This guy who's on the internet doing something all day can't use it to find a place to live. Whatever. Yeah. You can't rub one out to Apartments.com, can you? I've, we've, and Lord knows I've tried.

We tried sending him countless links to apartments to look into offering to go tour the places, et cetera, but none of them were to his liking. No, no, of course not. I mean, this dude's got to live in luxury. Now, of course. And by the way, if you're going to rub one out, Zillow is the way where you do. They do have such nice pictures, don't they? The interface. The photos are great.

You know, the sliding. Only the best for his majesty prints basement Cheeto fingers, right? This guy's like, oh, no, this isn't up to my standard. Mate, you can't even climb a set of stairs. Calm down. Sit down. Seriously. Lord, freaking porn hub premium bearer of brain injuries, you know,

king of the belligerents and the morbidly obese. First of his name. First of his name. So there's a lamest Game of Thrones spin-off I've ever heard of. Terrible. But just like Game of Thrones, they are battling for Mommy's affection. So he goes on. Finally, I went down to help them move out of the apartment.

The plan was to bring them back to Missouri. to our home temporarily. While there, my brother became violent, screaming at me that I wasn't doing things to his standards and repeatedly striking me with his cane in front of my wife and children. In self-defense, I pushed him, hoping that he would land in a sitting position on the couch behind him, but he missed and landed on the floor. I couldn't lift his 320-pound body, so the fire department and police department responded. That's when things got out of control Yeah, truly.

This is wild, Jordan. I just had an image of these two grown men suddenly becoming those little boys again in this fight in this altercation. Yeah, there were years in that shove. Like, oh, I thought he would fall on the couch behind him. But all the rage just channeled up through the earth. And he probably threw that 320-pound man further than he thought.

The fact that he didn't slap this guy straight across the face decades ago, though, is a miracle. I'm glad he didn't, I guess, but I certainly understand the impulse. The police officer helped me talk my mother into coming home with us, but we left my brother there. I couldn't justify allowing his outrageous behavior, his track record, and his porn addiction into my home with my wife and children. Yo, good call. Yeah, man. I, seriously, I was so nervous when he's like, the plan was to bring him back to Missouri to our home temporarily. I was like, no. Do not bring this belligerent dumpster fire of a human into your house.

He's never leaving. And you have your kids there. Like, he's going to be horrible to everyone. You don't want your kids around that. Maybe you deal with, if you're a single dude, you're like, I'll deal with this for a month. Wife and kids, no, they don't deserve that. Plus, the Wi-Fi is going to get super slow. Gross.

But definitely. Can you imagine having to share a kitchen with a guy like that? No, thank you. I have to say, it's pretty amazing that this cop helped him convince his most of the mother to move home with him. From what I've seen, a cop, they do not tend to get involved in family affairs like this. They're usually like, okay, is anyone hurt? Did somebody commit a crime? Okay, no. Okay, like everybody go for a walk.

You know, cool your jets. You guys figure this out amongst yourselves. Goodbye. No, I love that this cop just had a spontaneous therapy session with them on the porch. Bless that officer. He's probably like, oh, I've seen this before. My brother's also a piece of crap. Get your mom on it. It just got to speak to how obvious it is that his brother is a straight up loony tune and unfit to care for the mom and that she's better off with our friend. Otherwise, the cop would not have felt comfortable Lydia, you know, them like that, right? He would have just been like, yeah, this isn't my problem. I'm out. It's also interesting. Their mom seems to be very easily influenced by other people.

People who are in positions of power, right? Her older son, this police officer, she's listening to everyone in this situation, except the one son who's most loving and capable of taking care of her. Yeah, it's a good point, man. I'm getting a picture of a woman who just doesn't really know what she wants or has any ability to make decisions for herself or how to advocate for herself. Or she's terrified of not doing what her older son wants. You know, that pattern might go back a long way. But then even when things go off the rails multiple times, it seems like she still needs a strong person in a uniform to say, uh, ma'am, you know, maybe go live with the son who isn't literally homeless for the fifth time. Just a thought. It's fascinating, isn't it? And it probably makes our friend here feel even more

unappreciated to watch his own mother not realize who really has her back at all. So he goes on. A few weeks later, my brother had another stroke and died. Oh, okay. Plot twist. Yeah, you didn't see that coming, did you? No, I did not. I did not see that coming. Good.

The turns just keep on coming in this letter. It's crazy. We're getting a whole movie here. Yeah. I'm so absorbed in the story. It's not even funny. I hope you write something in your career, Gabe, half as good as this one day. Because you can't make this stuff up.

This is really like a lifetime movie on meth. Yeah, it really is. I would never have thought up the hitting people with a cane detail. That's just a chef's kiss of a character or portrait. It is. I'm sorry to say, I'm not trying to be cruel here. I'm just not feeling super sad. This guy almost just got put out of his misery.

Oh, you're not mourning the violent parasite who tortured our friend here since they were kids? How weird. Weirdly, no. And I'm not entirely surprised this happened either. I mean, I guess I didn't see it coming here in the letter. But look at the lifestyle, the mental health. It's just got to be such a huge problem off your plate. Don't feel guilty about that.

I guess I'm sorry, kind of, I don't know, not really. I did my best to comfort my mom through this time and to show compassion for her for a loss that I'm certain had to be difficult. Yeah, it's her son, of course. And it's your brother, so I'm sure you on some level were kind of sad, but it's so complicated for you. I was forced to handle my brother's final arrangements at my expense, which was not unexpected. Yeah, unreal. What a perfect punchline to this whole thing. Sticking our friend here with the bill for his cemetery plot and his oversized cast.

of course. And those babies are not cheap. He probably dropped eight, ten, twelve grand laying his brother to rest. We moved into a larger home and made my mother comfortable. We took care of her needs and tried to give our children the relationship with their grandmother that they longed for. Then one Sunday afternoon we took my mom to lunch, bought her some new clothes and brought her home. The kids went outside to play and I stepped into my office for a few minutes. When I walked back into the living room, my mom had passed away. You're killing me. with these plot twists. After all of that? I know. My God. Yeah.

Wow. Well, hey, look, I'm not trying to make light of this. I'm very sorry that you had to say goodbye. I'm obviously just having some strong feelings about all of this. There's so much going on here. That must have been quite a day, though, especially after the extraordinary way you cared for, you fought for her, everything you went through together. So intense, so painful, man. I really want to give you a hug, man. The things you have been through. My gosh. I now feel so conflicted about this. In my mind, I know I did everything I could to improve my mom's life, moving her from squalor to a nice home where all her needs were met, but the trauma of coming so far to simply lose her in my living room is devastating. Should I have handled all of this differently?

Should I have been more accepting of my brother's behavior or tried to do more for him? And how do I find some peace when relatives or old acquaintances go on and on about how funny my brother was, when I knew him to be a very dark person, signed a gutted son, shouldering a ton, and wondering if he's done enough for everyone. Wow, that was a ride, Gabe. Good God. A Feedback Friday family drama for the ages, seriously. Truly, man.

This is like a coming of age story and three deaths. So crazy. It's almost poetic. This really does feel like a novel or something. There's high, high, as low lows. Like I said, this guy's been through the ringer here and is this super trooper. I mean, what a mensch you are, man. for taking care of everyone like this.

So look, we spent a lot of time talking about your story way more than I thought we would. We only have a few minutes left here, so I'm just going to be very direct with you. Should you have handled this all differently? Not really. No, you were dealt a truly shitty hand with this brother, man. That was not your fault. There was no way that interacting with him around your mom's care was ever going to be easy. From what you've shared, you took care of her beautifully.

physically, emotionally, financially, you advocated for her, you fought for her, you gave her love, you gave her safety, you gave her purpose, you even respected her wishes when she said she wanted to live with your crappy brother, which might have been very painful and nerve-wracking to accept. And honestly, I cannot imagine what you could have done better other than maybe putting your foot down harder when she said she wanted to live with them. I might have tried a little harder to deprogram her there, but who knows what he actually did. he didn't include that.

Maybe tried to help her really think through that decision, but also, hey, man, she was an adult. And if that's what she wanted, at some point, you just got to go like, okay, mom, go wherever you're happiest. The only part of your story I feel like you could have handled differently to Gabe's much earlier point was that initial decision to move to Missouri from Alaska.

Separating from your family, building your own life, developing meaningful relationships, that was the best thing you ever did for yourself. So it was a little heartbreaking to say the least to hear that you gave that up, gave yourself up to go care for your mom and your brother in some ways when she could have moved out to you or your brother could have stepped up or you could have maybe tag teamed the situation somehow even though he wouldn't have carried his other guy, you know, brother wouldn't have carried his weight for shit.

If you had written to us back then, we probably would have said, before you move and give up your life, let's just take a beat, really think this through. Can you collaborate with your family or your brother on your mom's care? What would moving back bring up for you? Is this the healthiest choice? Is this the fairest choice? Why does all this responsibility fall on you? Hey, and why are you so quick to accept this?

Exactly. But given what your brother was capable of or wasn't capable of, maybe this was really the best option. And then there's the fact that you met this amazing woman in Missouri and you started a family, which like Gabe said, maybe that was why you had to move out there in some grander sense, right? And honestly, that's wonderful. That right there, she and your kids are your reward for that huge,

sacrifice. So I don't really know what the point of dissecting the past is at this point. It played out the way it did. And aside from that one decision, it seems to me that you handled this whole saga with a ton of grace and kindness and generosity. You're a hero, man, in so many ways. Come on. Completely agree with you, Jordan. I just want to say the only point in dissecting that decision now is for our friend here to consider the ways in which he might sometimes sacrifice his own needs to satisfy people who might or might not always deserve it. And all, also when it might not actually be necessary. I don't know if a choice like this will ever come up again for him, but this theme might show up in other parts of his life.

Part of the reason he might have had to go through this whole ordeal is to confront this tendency of his. And maybe in the future, if he ever faces a choice like this again, he can factor that in and maybe approach those decisions in a different way and find a way to hang on to himself while he also tries to take care of the people who need him. To your point, Jordan, at the top of today's episode, not just making the right decision, but making the right decision right. Yes, this is a perfect example of that idea.

And like I said, our friend here is very noble. He's selfless. He's responsible. Those are virtues. But there's a flip side to that, which might be self abandonment. Yeah, self abandonment. Exactly. So should you have been more accepting of your brother's behavior?

Should you have tried to do more for him? Hell no. Everybody listening is thinking, hell no. First of all, I think so. I assume so. First of all, you are already pretty damn accepting of his behavior, even when it literally put your elderly mother at a serious risk. Second, I don't think there's more you could have done for him.

I don't think there's anything anyone could have done for that guy. Your brother had severe issues. You know this. Like I said, my heart goes out to the little boy who was hurt or neglected or just wired wrong and who turned into this weird, sad, angry, completely incompetent adult. But he had a responsibility to take care of himself. And more importantly, he had a responsibility to honor the commitment he made to taking care of your mom. And he failed at that utterly.

To me, what's meaningful about this question is that you're even asking whether you should have been more accepting, more giving. Again, that speaks to your kindness. It speaks to your great capacity for being of service. And it might speak to an overactive sense of responsibility on your part. And maybe this persistent feeling that whatever you do, it's never enough, especially when it comes to your family, which I suspect is a feeling that probably goes back a very long way. All of that would be worth exploring now,

just for your benefit, now that you're on the other side of this. Amen, Gabe, I completely agree with that. Now, about those people who go on and on about how funny your brother was, I definitely understand why that grinds your gears. I get it. But in those moments, you need to remind yourself,

hey, first of all, those people only knew this version of your brother, one aspect of your brother. They didn't have to live with the guy. They didn't have to coordinate their parents' care with him They didn't have to get hit in the leg with his cane or whatever in the back, whatever. I'm still wrapping my head around that image. It's like an Austin Powers movie or something.

So when these people go, man, Garrett was such a riot. What a character. I would just tell yourself, okay, they knew him as one guy. I knew the real guy. Let them have their opinion. It's not the full story. And then do some, I don't know, Tai Chi or whatever the weird crap is that Gabe would do to calm down and just let the anger pass on its own.

That's how I calm down in any situation. I just bust out into Tai Chi. and it's always fine. It's very normal. Exactly. I mean, what else are you going to do? You're not going to write them a nine-page email explaining why they're wrong, right? You just got to feel the anger, let it roll off your back. But also, look, maybe your brother was kind of funny sometimes. I mean, he didn't sound very funny when he was calling you three times a week and berating you and your wife. He didn't sound funny when he was insulting you and Tanya hardying you with his cane and then blaming it on his fake brain injury. I mean, this sounds like a nightmare. But I don't know, maybe he left funny Facebook

comments for people. Maybe he told a good story. I mean, that might be the one bright spot of your brother's personality. We contain multitudes, right? So if that's the one thing about your brother that people enjoyed, if that was the one nice thing that he put out into the world, okay, that's something. You know, you didn't get to enjoy that. You couldn't enjoy that. But they could. And that's nice for them. And that's really all it is. It's nice for them. Yeah, the other thing is, when somebody's like, oh, he was so funny, and that's the best memory they have of the guy. Right. Like, oh, he wasn't nice. capable, achieved anything, sweets, caring. Right.

It's just like he told a great dirty joke after a few cocktails, yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, when he got drunk, he made fun of people and it was kind of sort of a, like a thing that we laughed at. Is that the legacy to be upset about? Yeah, really. I would not be jealous of that. I wouldn't think these people didn't understand.

They only can find that little tiny, little positive thing to say about him. Come on. So listen, my friend. you've been on an extraordinary journey here. It was a journey filled with a lot of pain, a lot of loss, a lot of adversity, and it was also a journey filled with a lot of love, a lot of joy, a lot of growth.

I'm going to give it to you straight. You were a great son. Your brother was a nightmare, and you managed a very difficult situation as well as you knew how, which all things considered was pretty damn well. And I can only imagine how painful it must be to have your mom die so soon

after you kind of got her back, finally after all the work you put in, all the fighting you did. But you know, she could have died in a filthy apartment across the country with no lights and no groceries and no running water. Good point. And probably no Oreos also. And no Oreos, which I think we can all agree would have been the real tragedy. But that is not what happened, man. She ended her life in a loving home, a safe home, knowing that the one person who always had her back was in the other room, checking his email or whatever, and was coming right back to make sure that she was happy and taken care of.

That is such a gift, man. That is the gift. So I really hope that you can take that in. I hope you can make room for that fact alongside all of these other tough feelings, and I hope in time that you can find some peace and meaning in all this. Your mom was insanely lucky to have you in her life.

You guys were literally her saving grace. Just remember that. Be proud of that. We're sending you a huge hug. We're wishing you, your wife, and your kids, all the best. Dude, that letter got to me, Gabriel. with all the twists and then she, like, finally he rescues her from this mess and then she passes away.

You know, if you believe in this kind of stuff, which I usually, you know, don't. It's like, finally she could relax enough knowing that she was safe. And that's why she checked out at that time, whether you want to believe that or not. I'm just glad she got to do that near the family that took care of her. Oh, I hope you all enjoyed this show or took something from this show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the Patrick Winn episode on a Narco's

State inside Burma, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, that is the circle of people that I know like and trust, and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100% free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the think-ifick platform at six-minute networking.com.

I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build the relationships before you need them. Six-minute networking.com. Don't forget the newsletter as well, Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. We dig into a past episode every week and send it on out to you. Show notes and transcripts over at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support this show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. I've got a preview trailer of our interview with poker star Annie Duke on how we can learn to make better decisions by thinking in bets instead of trying so hard to be certain all the time. So stay tuned for that after the close of the show. The quality of your life is determined by

the sum of two things, the quality of your decisions and luck. When something bad happens to us, we act as a skill wasn't involved at all. We just sort of pawned off to the luck elements. But when good things happen, we sort of ignore the luck element and we say that it was because of our great skill. A self-driving Uber just hit and killed a pedestrian. But what I thought was really interesting was that the reaction was to suspend the testing and just to take the cars off the road, not just the Uber cars, but other self-driving vehicles. And what I didn't see were any comparisons to how self-driving vehicles did per thousand miles traveled versus the technology that we already have on the road, which is cars that are driven by humans. We know that 6,000

pedestrians die per year by regular. driven card. Let's say that you're on the side of the road and you've got a flat tire. And of course, what everybody's thinking in that moment is I have the worst life ever. Like, why do these things always happen to me? I'm so unlucky. I'm so miserable. What's really interesting to me about it is, like, you could have gotten a promotion, like the biggest promotion of your life three days before. And you're not standing on the side of the road going, my life's great because I just got the biggest promotion I could ever imagine. So imagine that you had this flat tire. a year ago. And now I'm asking you today, a year later, how much do you think that that flat

tire would have affected your overall happiness over the year? For more with any Duke, including some common mistakes we make when evaluating decisions, check out episode 40 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the

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