The Jordan Harbinger Show - 980: Sister Was Wild — Should You Adopt Her Child? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

Your pregnant sister-in-law was a wild child growing up and suffers addiction. Would adopting her baby disrupt your family life? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: Whenever you're hit with a double-whammy of physical illness and depression, remember that psychology is, in fact, biology. Metacognition is the key. Your pregnant sister-in-law was a wild child growing up and suffers from addiction. Would adopting her baby disrupt your own family's tranquility? What's the most drama-free way to get your professional contacts on board with the changes you've made since coming out as transgender? [Thanks to Noelle Soncrant, the first visible transgender financial advisor at Northwestern Mutual, for helping us with this one!] You just discovered your wife has a warrant for her arrest after neglecting to pay $173,000 in taxes your co-owned and recently dissolved business owes to the IRS. Now what? [Thanks to bankruptcy attorney Erin Hoskins for giving us some sound advice here!] Your sister left her amazing husband for a man she finds more attractive — but who also exhibits controlling and manipulative behavior. He's pressuring her to have a baby despite her lifelong decision against it. How can you help her realize she's making a huge mistake? How can you mitigate career setbacks while taking time off from work to travel? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/980 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, The Cool Breeze, redirecting the lava spewing out of this Icelandic volcano of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Very timely, that one, I have to say. I thought so. Iceland, man. They know how to make those volcanoes. They do. Very much the crazy Feedback Friday stepmother of geological formations, I would say. Yeah, or the angsty cousin who picks a fight at Christmas dinner for no reason

and then forces everyone to reroute their flights. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills are the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become

a better, informed, more critical thinker, and during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from former jihadis and undercover agents to astronauts and national security advisors, Russian chess grandmasters and tech luminaries. This week we had Adam Gamal,

This guy, man, he immigrated to the United States from Egypt. That story in itself is crazy. Joins the army and ends up in this counterterror special forces unit that is just all over the world doing wild and crazy assassinations and renditions and protection missions. This is a two-parter. It's a really incredible story, and I think you're going to enjoy it. On Fridays, though, we show stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and compare Gabe

to various eruptive bodies, apparently. Speaking of eruptive bodies, as you might be able to hear, I'm still a little under the weather. Whenever I get sick, I notice that I tend to get a little bit down emotionally, mentally, whatever. So I was texting with a friend of mine the other day is a happiness researcher, and he's like, how are you doing? And I was like, I'm okay, real talk, though, whenever I get sick, either from the kids or because of overwork or both, I realize I start to feel bad about other things in my life, especially like the business and the show. It's like, oh, we're not doing this, we're not doing that. And as I've gotten older, I'm 44 now. I realize the things I generally think about, they haven't really changed at all,

despite how much my life has changed. So most of these concerns are just a story that my mind is telling. It's an illusion that my mind is creating. And it usually does that when it's feeling bad about other things. So in other words, I get sick physically, right? I get RSV or cold or whatever crazy crap that kids bring home from daycare. So my mind feels a little depressed or down, which makes my mind start to look for reasons that I'm down. And so the mind is not going, oh, well, you feel bad because you have a cold and everything else is fine. The mind latches on to anything that could confirm my concerns and trigger anxiety. Like, oh, no, the advertising sales load is a little bit low halfway through the month. What does that mean? Are we going to

have a low, you know, whatever, an advertiser that cancels and I'm like, oh, the ads don't work anymore, roll up the carpet, right? So I told my friend, I don't know if this is scientific, but it makes sense to me because we know that feeling down or depressed, it can actually be a form of defense or protection when we're compromised physically. I read somewhere that the body wants to isolate when we're not at 100%. Maybe that's to preserve energy to recover, whatever, stuff like that. And one of the ways it does that is by triggering laziness and or depression. But then I was thinking, okay, our brains crave a story and they also hate uncertainty, right? So instead of saying, I'm sick, my body wants to isolate, that's why I don't feel so good. My mind says, I'm sick, and my business is

failing and my friends all hate me and, you know, insert depression slash anxiety-fueled rumination rant here. And seeing how that works, that none of this is true or doesn't have to be true, that's been very educational for me. And it's something that I think kind of has only come to me with age. I think you can learn it at any age. But that's what I shared with my friend, again, a literal happiness researcher. And he came back with, great to hear this line of thinking. It's a real breakthrough when you accept that psychology is in fact biology. When you your adrenal system is stressed, you pour out cortisol. Your brain doesn't know if it's because you tried to record too many podcasts or because your wife loves you less, right? And you're just hormonally

out of equilibrium. Obviously, your wife doesn't love you less. Well, I mean, I don't know how he knows that, but sure. That's true. That's true. Jen could be secretly filing for divorce in the other room while we record this episode for all I know. Yeah. Like, is he reviewing transcripts of your pillow talk or something? Not that I know of anyway. This is a pretty decent friend. He's a smart guy, and he's going based on what he knows about me and about my relationships, of course. So anyway, the insight is when you're in that state, all the small things wrong in your life, they get disproportionate weight. Think about it. If you feel good, you just completed a workout and you're going on vacation, you might go, yeah, we're having a low sales month in the

business. But you know what? That stuff always gets ironed out. And even if we have a low month, it always gets made up for later in the quarter. If we have a bad quarter, it gets made up for in another quarter. No big deal. But if you have a cold and you, you're a cold and you, you're about to do three hours of email, it's like, nope, I'm, what, okay, I'm Googling, do self-employed people qualify for unemployment, right? You start really going down the tubes. So anyway, his recommendation to manage all of this was metacognition. So he's a religious guy, so he mentions prayer, journaling, meditation, thinking about thinking. Thinking about how we think, right? Exactly. And why we think, getting perspective on our perspectives. Right. And of course,

adequate recovery. And it's always interesting. It's honestly kind of funny to notice how the whole world seems to change when you're healthy again. And again, it's something I'm hanging on to as I get over this little post-Japan bug is like, I think the real takeaway is avoid making big decisions when you're in one of these moods too. Like, do you want to quit your job? It's like, well, I do have pneumonia. So unless I got pneumonia because my job is consistently overworking me and the boss just doesn't care about my health, okay, fine, that's a red flag. But if it's like, is this career for me and you're like, well, I feel kind of crappeted and I can't breathe without it feeling like I'm inhaling fire, that must mean that my career path is not the right one and I shouldn't have children and not marry my fiance. Like, no, don't make those decisions when you already feel like A-Double S for some other reason.

I think that's the big takeaway here. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailback? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my late 20s and married with two kids. My husband's family is fantastic. and I have a really great relationship with both of his parents. His youngest sister, though, had a really difficult start to life. She was adopted by my in-laws when she was a year old after her biological mom lost custody for neglect and drug use.

Understandably, she has some pretty significant issues as a result. I first met her when she was 12, and I've tried to have a meaningful friendship with her. She always seemed young for her age, but other than some immaturity, I've never seen anything crazy happen. But my husband and his family say that she basically made their lives hell growing up. Apparently, she lied constantly, ran away multiple times, and once tried to set their house on fire. She caused a lot of contention in their home, and her siblings all still have a really hard time being around her.

She's still in contact with both of her parents, one of her brothers, and me. She ended up leaving home halfway through her senior year of high school and hasn't been back since. Since graduating, she's been to rehab a couple of times, and is constant. changing or losing jobs, but she seems to be able to support herself enough to live in a house with some roommates. Then, a couple of months ago, she told us that she's pregnant. She already had one abortion and doesn't want to do that again. At first she said she planned to keep the baby after it's born, but pretty soon she was calling me saying that she doesn't think she can, which I completely understand. I told her that we might be able to take the baby, and she seems to be leaning towards

that option. She doesn't want to give it up to somebody that she doesn't know and I'm not sure that anyone else in the family wants to take it. I want to help this baby, but I'm worried. I don't think that it will have as many problems as its mom because I would be getting it as a newborn, but there's still genetics at play and it's possible that the baby has been or will be exposed to illicit drugs during the pregnancy. My mother-in-law is against us adopting the baby. She doesn't want us to go through something similar to what she went through. My husband, however, is willing. Do I risk jeopardizing the peace in my home by adopting this baby? Would that be fair to my biological children? How much of an obligation do we have to our future niece or nephew? Signed to give this baby a home

by calling it our own or stay in our zone because there's just too much unknown? Man, what a conundrum this is. Fascinating situation all around and very sad. Your poor sister-in-law just did not have a fair start at life. She did a real number on your in-laws, the whole family. It's just so tragic. I mean, trying to light the house on fire. Must be pretty bad. Yeah.

Gabe, I'm thinking about that letter we took a few weeks back from the guy whose parents adopted that baby whose mother used drugs while pregnant. And among other things, she just did a number on the kid. And years later, he's having all these behavior problems and he's throwing violent temper tantrums. And he was like eight, right? And he knocked his dad's teeth out and stuff like that.

It's just awful. They had to call the police to the house regularly when he was throwing tantrums. That's right. That was episode 9.53, by the way, it was question two on that episode. Yeah, they sound like children who have wrestled with similar issues. Yeah. Tragic. Yeah. It's so sad. And none of that was her fault. And look, I'm really glad to hear she went to rehab. That's great. She's more stable now. I hope she's staying sober and holding up okay. She's definitely improved. But somebody who's

struggling severely in life who can't or isn't ready to take care of a baby, my opinion is they, of course, should not be having a baby. Easier said than done. So that frustrates me, too, that she's potentially about to put another child through the same situation she went through and also make that child's life even harder by being like, you know, maybe I'll just cave into my addiction while I have a baby bacon. That's just awful. That's the cycle, man. It's really, really deeply sad. It's quite anger-inducing. I know people have different beliefs about abortion. I, of course, I get it. I'm not trying to get into that whole topic, but now she's either condemning this child to a life of difficulty or she's about to make this problem, her family's

problem. And it's just, it's not okay. Anyway, we wanted to get an expert's opinion here, so we reached out to Colleen Riddle, Child Welfare Specialist, Adoption Expert, and Independent Contractor for Heartland for Children, which is a lead child welfare agency in Florida. And again, y'all, I said Florida, so you, you know, Colleen has seen some stuff. And the first thing Colleen said was that she commends you for taking this question seriously, putting some real thought into it. Unfortunately, this is a question that only you and your husband can really answer. It's a tough situation in Colleen's view because there's no easy right or wrong and it involves family. But she did want to share a few questions that you can use to guide your decision-making process

and wrap your head around what this situation would look like. So her first question was, how much contact do you anticipate with the child's mother? And what will be your plan for sharing this child's birth story with the child? So as Colleen put it, all children have an innate desire for connection with their biological family. Since you'd be adopting this child from birth, you could provide this child with love and support from day one, but in her view, that's not going to eliminate or replace the innate desire for connection with biological family. So their relationship with your sister-in-law, how much

contact they'll have with their relationship will be like, it's a very important variable here. And it's a complicated question given your sister-in-law's history, her personality, how she takes care of herself, which leads to Colleen's second question, how good are you at setting and maintaining boundaries? This would be an open adoption, meaning your sister-in-law, she would participate in placing the baby with you guys and might have contact with the child after that. And I'll tell you, there was a girl who grew up next door to me growing up and she had an open adoption. And I remember her parents, her adoptive parents, our neighbors would be like, yeah, we went to

the mall and we ran into her bio dad. And it was like, oh gosh, you know, because it's always complicated with these folks. And Colleen's experience, it's always better for a child to be with biological family following a separation from a birth mother. So in a way, what you're proposing here, this is the best case scenario, after staying with her mom anyway. Although, again, given her mom, maybe this really is the best case scenario. But Colleen pointed out, it sounds like your sister-in-law struggles with boundaries with relationship in general. Colleen felt you should know that your sister-in-law will likely challenge these boundaries.

So the burden of maintaining boundaries to protect this child, deciding what you want their relationship with her to look like, that's going to be entirely on you and your husband. Now, Colleen wanted to be clear here, she's not suggesting that this child should not have a relationship with her biological mother. In fact, this child might thrive knowing both their birth mother and the family that chose them, but she did say that you will have to be the arbiter, the guardian of what is healthy and what is not healthy for this family. Colleen's third question was if you go through with this adoption, who's going to be your support team? In her experience, you're going to need one. Will your family or your husband's family support you if you decide to adopt?

Will you possibly lose their support or involvement for your two existing children? If you decide to adopt, are there other people who would support you and your husband? Because look, parenting is hard no matter how a child joins a family. But statistically, parents who adopt need an increased level of support because adopted children statistically need more support. So that's Colleen's first big recommendation to really sit with these questions. You and your husband together, talk them out, do your legwork, come up with the answers together and then take a big step back and ask, okay, given what we're

looking at here, all the scenarios, all the data we gathered, the changes of the decisions we're going to have to make, do we really want to do this? And if we do, are we prepared for what's in store? Yep, those are the questions. And once you done that, then Colleen hopes that you will be open to a few words of advice. And remember, this is coming from somebody who has seen a lot of adoptions and all of the joys and also all of the challenges that adoption brings up. So her first tip, seek counsel as a family from an adoption competent therapist. You're going to want to find somebody who is specifically credentialed in adoption competency because, as Colleen put it to us, adoption blends the tragedy of loss and separation

with the beauty of love and this feeling of wantedness. And if at any point you or this child are struggling, she would give you the exact same advice. go seek out therapy, and always look for the adoption competent therapist. Her second piece of advice was seek out training on trauma, on attachment. Colleen explained to us that people often think, oh, you know, if we adopt this infant at birth, they'll be fine because we'll be there from the very beginning and we'll make sure that they have a great, stable childhood. But she wanted to remind you that these children spend all of that time in utero with their

birth mother. So they will always experience the trauma of separation. There's no way around it. And of course, whatever your sister-in-law's lifestyle during the pregnancy is, that'll also obviously impact the child profoundly, which you already know. Now, some children with secure attachments and open adoption never struggle. Others struggle a lot. Colleen said there's no way to predict how well a child is going to thrive in an adopted

family, but she did say that we know that these children do better if they're adopted by a family member. But still, an understanding of trauma and attachment is key. So Colleen said that your local adoption or child welfare agency, they should offer classes or workshops on this kind of stuff. So definitely check that out. I would also encourage you to read the book The Body Keeps the Score. It's one of the best books about trauma theory and treatment. I finally got around to reading it myself a few weeks ago. It is extremely educational, very eye-opening. I would also check out Jordan's interview with Amir Levine. He's the author of the book Attached. That'll be a really good intro to the whole concept of attachment theory, and that was episode 960. More generally, though, Colleen's advice in this area was just read, read, read, and keep educating yourself.

She said the Karen Purvis Institute for Child Development puts out amazing material for parents of adopted children. They offer free videos on YouTube. They do in-person trainings. They can also use their pages to find practitioners who offer things like camps and educational opportunities for your whole family, which sound pretty terrific. Colleen has a few favorite books about the topic of parenting. One is The Connected Child. another is called the whole brain child, and then there was another one called No Drama Discipline. She said these books guided her husband and her through their own adoption journeys.

We're going to link to all of those books in the show notes for you. Also, Colleen would encourage you to follow adoption pages on social media, and not just those, but also pages run by adoptees. Now, she did say that some of what these adoptees have to say can be a little hard to hear sometimes, but she's also found this to be a really helpful tool in understanding their point of you. And, you know, it might help you understand this child even better and maybe even prepare for some of the experiences that this child might have. Colleen's last thought for you was, whatever you decide here, that's got to be the decision. So once you've committed, she says,

do not question that call. Do not look back. Which is why answering these questions and doing all of this homework now in advance, thoughtfully, fully, before you make the decision is so crucial. And if your kids are old enough, if they're ready to have this conversation, you can discuss the decision with them as well. And if that's kind of hard to do, Colleen is a big fan of making a plan, maybe even with that therapist, and working through the hard conversations together. But Colleen was very, very firm on this point. For the sake of all of the children, she said, do not waffle, do not hesitate on this decision once you've made it. You got to lead from a position of, this is our family, and your children will follow. In fact, Colleen said that they might

surprise you. They might have the biggest impact on the healing journey of this new baby. But in her view, your first obligation is always to your existing family. But yes, if this child becomes a part of that family, they're going to be forever family. Wise words for sure. All that said, and I'm speaking from myself here, please think through this decision very carefully. I think it's absolutely incredible that you're even considering adopting this child.

Based on what you've shared, it's very likely they'd have a much better life with you and your family. But, oh, man, I'm just not sure you owe this huge commitment and sacrifice to your sister-in-law. This was her choice. her addiction, it's her psychology. I mean, we're talking about somebody who used drugs, might use them again, who literally set her childhood home on fire or tried to. She is the one now failing to live up to the responsibilities of motherhood, of adulthood. That is tragic. And it does break my heart that her choices are now affecting another life, but that is also the difficult reality of this situation. Would you be a saint for adopting this baby? Absolutely.

Would you be doing God's work? No doubt about it. And if that's what you guys want and you're willing to do, hey, I support you, I commend you, but that doesn't mean you have to do it. So a question I would ask yourself is, how much of your offer to adopt this baby is about helping this specific child? How much of it is about expanding your family and creating a new experience with this kid? And how much of it is about saving your sister from a really difficult choice and some very difficult feelings here? Ah, that is such a good question. And I would also throw in another, which is, is she possibly saving herself from some difficult feelings? Because now she has, to potentially sit back and watch her sister-in-law give this child up for adoption to somebody

they don't know, somebody totally different. Does she feel like she needs to step in because that's too hard to watch, even if this isn't her responsibility? Yeah, man, I also feel bad for her bio kids, you know, like new kid comes in, tons of attention on them. What if they have a bunch of problems because of in-utero drug use? Now their whole life is forever changed. I don't know. Because look, I can only imagine how heartbreaking this must be to watch. Your sister-in-law is possibly giving this disadvantaged baby up for adoption when you guys could theoretically take it. But that is an option here. It's a fair one in my opinion. And maybe I'm saying this because we just heard that disturbing story about those parents who was struggling with their adopted son.

I know not all adoption stories turned out the same way. Family friends of mine adopted a girl from Korea. She was kind of a nightmare as a teenager. Now she's an amazing mom. She's a great person. She just had a phase like many teenagers do. I sincerely hope that this child is a very different experience of life than somebody we would hear about on Feedback Friday. But like Colleen said, you have to go into this eyes wide open, knowing what you might be signing up for, knowing what this child will require to succeed in life, accepting they might not succeed in certain ways. They just have a tough time or change the balance of your family in some irreversible way. You have to be clear about that, and you have to ask yourself, and I mean really ask yourself,

if you guys are willing to embrace all the risks, all the potential impacts, as well as all the potential joys and fulfillment, and I say that, not just for you and your husband, but also, like I said, for your kids, who, like Colleen said, are your first priority. And I know what it sounds like, but I'm not really trying to dissuade you necessarily, although I clearly have my concerns, I'm sure you do too. I say that just to help you make this decision

with as much awareness and honesty as possible, or if you decide not to do this, to feel secure and at peace with that decision. You clearly love your family. That's great. Good for you. You should. I mean, yes, that's table stakes, but, like, I could see it.

And you're coming from a place of real, compassion for your sister-in-law and her child, which is admirable. In Colleen's view, you're already doing better than many people just by taking this decision seriously, and I concur. Whether or not you choose to adopt, you'll have thoroughly explored the option. So go have these conversations, go read all the books or whatever, consult the experts, think through what you want to take on, and whether it's yours to take on. And I know that's going to lead you to the right decision here. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else is going to set your house on fire, Gabriel. Metaphorically, of course.

the deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable at Jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm trans, and long story short, it's been a very difficult journey. My mother and brother have been extremely challenging and hurtful in a variety of ways, which led to a suicidal spiral that has lasted almost eight years now. I'm in therapy for all of it.

Hooray for therapy, but it's still exhausting. I changed my first name when I transitioned, but because of how my family is treated a very serious issue, I later decided to change my last name, too. I've been working on my networking, and I'm now struggling with the fact that I have a completely different name. name from when I last spoke to a number of the people I'm reaching out to. I expect a good number of them to understand that I have a different name, but some might not, or they won't pay attention enough to realize who I was before. I'm also not sure how many people from my old life I want to get in contact with. I'm realizing that I will likely have to dead name myself by giving my former name, which I'm not entirely comfortable doing, and which creates a lot of emotional labor for me.

So for anybody who doesn't know, dead naming is when you call a transgender person by their birth name when they've changed their name as part of their transition, which apparently can bring up some very tough feelings. That's right. So the letter goes on. Another complication is that I'm not entirely set on the new first name I picked, and I'm mulling over some new ones. Insert meme here about trans people changing their names every three months. But the name felt like a transitional one to get away from my dead name for good.

That's funny. I hadn't heard of that trope about trans people changing their names a lot, but I, look, it makes sense. I like that you have a little bit of a sense of humor about that. I actually wonder if that could be part of your script here. How do I handle my name when I reach out to people I met before I transitioned? How do I avoid dead naming myself while catching people up on my life? And do you have any broader relationship building advice for trans people? Signed, new name, same me. So how do I tell the story of how all of this came to be? Interesting question, and definitely one I don't think I've ever had, especially on the show before. So I'm happy to dig into a new experience here. We wanted to share your story with an expert, so we reached out to Noel Sancrant, the first visible transgender financial advisor at Northwestern Mutual, and currently one of two nationally for the company. And about handling your new name when you reach out to people, Noel said that this is very much a personal choice. In her case, she did a few things at once.

She said there were a select few who she felt deserved to hear it from her, either in person or with a phone call. She also decided to let the world know with a message on her LinkedIn page. She told us she actually did this on a Friday morning, turned off her phone. She and her friend went and got their nails done. Noel got her ears pierced. They had lunch. They got tattoos. Like, they had a busy-ass day, basically.

Big day, big day for Noel all around. I mean, it sounds like a super fun day, mostly because your phone is off. But, hey, you know, go you with the badass piercings and tattoos. Meanwhile, her clients from Northwestern Mutual received an email telling them about Noel's transition, and they were given the option to contact her managing director if they would prefer to work with somebody else. And Noel told us that this was probably the scariest part of the announcement, and gosh, I can imagine why. But not a single client asked to be reassigned, and she hasn't lost any of them since, which is pretty damn cool. And that probably speaks to the quality of Noel's work,

as well as her strong relationships with her clients. But it's also a great, reminder that people are probably going to be much more understanding than you might think, and more invested in you as a person than in, like, the name that you go by, certainly the people you want to keep close and develop meaningful relationships with anyway. Now, Noel did want you to know that you're going to get some messages of support, hopefully no hateful messages, and some people are just going to disappear from your world. So her advice was to be prepared for that. Now, about the dead naming concern, to quote Noel here, none of us can 100% of avoid being dead named. But she did say that you'll learn really quickly the difference between

those who do that with malice and those who are just used to calling you by your dead name. So her advice, give the second group grace. They're adjusting to. Her approach is to just remind those people that it's no longer your name and it's important to you to be recognized with your new name. And if they continue calling you by your old name, okay, then they start falling into the first group. And maybe those folks, you just don't pursue them too hard. But again, Noel said that hasn't actually happened to her very often. Again, we build this up in our heads. Those are her words.

Noel's larger insight here was that communication is key. She chose not to start new social media pages, but just to change her name. And yeah, some people were confused. And if they asked her like, hey, what's with the new name? What's with all the changes? Then she shared her story with them. In her view, everyone's eventually going to find out.

So don't be afraid to share your story. To quote her again, you are strong and brave for being your authentic self. There's no shame in this. Now, in terms of bigger picture relationship building advice, Noel told us that large social gatherings, yeah, those did cause her a ton of social anxiety in the early days. But she's been fortunate to have colleagues and friends from other businesses who go to networking events with her.

They help her feel safe. Her advice there, and I'm quoting her again, is get used to the stairs. It's going to happen. You got to frame it in your mind that people are admiring how beautiful you are, how handsome you are, you know, your mindset is key. Noelle's take is that being authentic, that's what's going to give you new confidence. She told us that trans people are often terrified at first, because, you know, all they ever hear are these horror stories. But that doesn't mean your story is going to go that way. And if it helps, she recommended going to LGBTQ focused events

at first, you know, either in person or online. That might feel a little safer. It might help you ease into this new experience. Noel actually shared an interesting story with us. So earlier in the day that we spoke with her, she picked up some takeout from a restaurant and she suspected that one of the workers at this restaurant was trans. This woman spotted Noel and they just smiled at each other and she asked Noel's name and she told her, you know, your order is coming right up. And Noel said that they just connected with their eyes. And it was just like this really nice, meaningful moment. So the final thought Noel wanted to leave you with is you will find that by being very very very, visible, you are also giving strength to other people. And her advice is to surround yourself with people

who love you, who support you even in the business world. So to quote her one last time here, we are out there and we aren't that difficult to find. And in fact, she invited you to connect with her and she offered to talk you through some strategies as you navigate this new chapter, especially since the practices can vary a little bit from industry to industry, which is a super sweet offer. And I think you should take her up on that. I hope you do. That's awesome. And really says a lot about Noel. By the way, I also asked another trans friend of mine for advice, a guy named Robbie Samuels, and Robbie pointed us to a great resource, the National Center for Transgender Equality, which has a ton of resources about navigating conversations, decisions,

paperwork, spaces. You probably already know about this, but just mentioning it in case anyone didn't. We'll link to that in the show notes for you. So thank you, Robbie for that, and big thanks to Noel for her wisdom and experience here. By the way, Noel is based in Florida, but she works with LGBTQ clients nationwide. You can connect with her on LinkedIn or at her website, and we'll link to both of those in the show notes as well. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Keep your emails concise.

Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. Or if you find a dead squirrels in your mailbox, your neighbors are eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you just found out your commitment phobic boyfriend actually has a sex addiction, if that's even a thing. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, what's next?

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For the last eight years, I've been running a construction company with my wife. Though we're fairly successful, we made an early mistake by signing a contract with the local trade union. Conflicts ensued, and the company took a big hit. After considering our options, we decided to let the company naturally wind down. At the end, all the contracts were completed, and we were pretty close to the black. There were only a couple thousand in outstanding material bills to pay. Then, the other day, I picked up the mail and saw two letters, a notice from the IRS, which is never a good sign, and an arrest warrant from the constable for my wife. It turns out that we never sent in the money for our company's 9-4-1s, the form to report and pay income taxes, Social Security tax, or Medicare tax, and not just for one or two months, but for six quarters to the tune of $173,000.

A year ago, my wife told me that we were in a little bit of trouble, so I pulled $60,000 from my retirement, nearly all of it, to keep us afloat and pay suppliers. I should have seen this as a warning sign. As it stands now, not only has our company failed, but we're also personally liable for $173,000 over the next 10 years. The IRS will make anyone in the company that had a say in matters personally liable, and these taxes are non-dischargeable. The debt can't be eliminated through a bankruptcy proceeding. They aren't pursuing me because I didn't work in the office, but married is married in the eyes of the IRS. I love my wife, but I'm having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that I feel blindsided by multiple loans and the fact that I use

my retirement to pay the wrong people, i.e. not the IRS. I definitely don't have money to hire a lawyer to defend us, but I also can't imagine my wife going to prison either. What on earth am I supposed to do now. Can getting divorced protect me in any way and help save what little is left of our lives? Signed, dealing with a whole other ball of wax, man, now that I'm in hot water with a tax man. Ah, what a mess. And I'm very sorry to hear about all this. Frustrating on a number of levels. And I completely understand why you're worried, why you're angry, probably pretty freaked out. IRS stuff is no joke. Ironically, Gabriel, if she had stiffed all the creditors but paid the IRS, you guys probably would have been fine, right?

They would have come after you and he'd be like, hey, sorry, bankruptcy, company, something, something. The one creditor you can't screw with is Uncle Sam. Right. So this is a tough situation. We wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to Aaron Hoskins, bankruptcy attorney, friend of the show, and apparently our new debt guru. And Aaron said, you're right. Taxes are usually non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, but she said it might still be worth consulting

with a bankruptcy attorney, ideally one who has some experience with IRS debt specifically because they can look into certain aspects such as the personal liability issue or a possible statute of limitations. Also, filing bankruptcy, that could lead to negotiations or some type of settlement of the amounts you owe. Unfortunately, Aaron said that the IRS,

they're not really great with negotiation because they have certain privileges and avenues for collection that commercial lenders and judgment creditors just don't have. So their collection process, it's a heck of a lot faster and more expedient than other creditors.

For example, they can record a lien without having to first sue for judgment. And what that means is, like, let's say I owe you money. Well, okay, come at me, bro. You got to sue, you got to then win, I get a chance to defend it, then you got to come after me and collect it. The IRS is like, nah, here's a piece of paper

that says we own your house now, and you're going to have to move. Or you can just pay us. Or maybe we'll take out a mortgage against your house, you know, and give it to the bank, and you'll get evicted. And it's like, wow, they can just sort of like cut to the chase. That said, sometimes the IRS might agree to waive penalties or interest,

depending on the situation. There are also possible due process issues and protections that an attorney might be able to help you with because they can dig in. They can ask questions. They can look into the specifics. I've actually seen this happen myself. My tax attorney years ago, we got audited by the IRS. And they were like, we want every document about everything that you've ever done. And my attorney was like, no, that's not how this goes. Come on. You can request some of this information, you can request more if you have a reason, but you can't just go fishing in my client's documents for the last decade. You need to prove such and such before you can compel us to do this. So go do that and then we'll talk. And they came back and they were like, here's this very narrow

thing where we think we're going to find something. And, you know, that was a massive relief for us on many levels and way less expensive. So this is just one of the many reasons you need an attorney on your side right now. To say an attorney will pay for him or herself when you're getting audited by the IRS, especially when you owe them $173,000. Like, that is, you could basically guarantee that they are going to pay for themselves. So go and get a lawyer yesterday. Also, Aaron said that without knowing more, being married does not make you liable for your spouse's debt unless you sign for it or you are jointly liable.

On that point, Aaron thinks the relevant issue is not that your wife failed to make these payments, but that you and your wife were co-owners, co-operators of the business, which makes you potentially liable in that capacity. In that sense, divorce isn't going to help. She suspects that the IRS is likely going to hold you jointly liable until the money is paid whether you stay married or not. So her question here was, what type of company do you guys have?

Typically for a corporation, the owners and officers would not be personally liable for the business debt. But for a partnership or a limited liability company, the owners could be considered personally liable. Now, about the warrant and criminal issues, whof, unfortunately, that's outside Aaron's wheelhouse as a bankruptcy attorney, but your wife definitely needs another type of attorney herself.

Ideally, somebody with experience in criminal tax defense. But as far as paying for an attorney, Aaron confirmed that most attorneys, they're going to do a consult for free. So reach out to one, share some specifics, get an idea of their initial thoughts on the options available to you guys. I have a feeling that just talking to an attorney is going to be a huge relief for you and or your wife. You need one, like I said, urgently,

and even if they confirm some fears, you're going to feel a lot better knowing that you're being well represented and that they're taking steps to address the debt and protect you. Also, Aaron wanted to remind you that legal services or pro bono options, which means free, are available to you if you're eligible. A Google search might help you find those resources in your area, or it should anyway. But I would start with a consult. Part of your conversation is going to be how you pay.

Maybe a lawyer will come down on their rate a bit. Maybe they'll offer you more helpful payment terms. You know, you didn't stiff your vendors. You can always show them that. You only stiffed Uncle Sam. I don't know if that's going to convince him, but you never know. Also, Aaron said that if you or your wife truly cannot afford an attorney, your wife has a right to a public defender. She's not just going to show up to court and be like, a judge, I don't know.

I mean, I guess I did it, right? She's going to have a lawyer somehow. Public defenders, by the way, those are great attorneys a lot of the time, but the problem is they're overworked. They have like a zillion cases. So it could be a little bit of a roll of the dice, and I would hope you find a good lawyer who can give you the time and attention that you deserve, especially since this is very specific. tax stuff, a public defender who's used to representing deadbeats on DUIs and people who broke into a store to steal cell phones, they might not have that much experience dealing with something like this. Yeah, unfortunately, you're not going to end up with highly motivated Saul Goodman from

season one of Better Call Saul. You're going to end up with that guy who's just like browbeaten and overwhelmed because he has 38 cases to plead out that day. Right. So all of this is super sound advice. That's the legal side of things. The other huge piece of this, of course, is what all of this means for your marriage and what it says about your wife. Based on what you've shared, she's made two huge mistakes, failing to file these taxes and then hiding that from you. And also just generally mismanaging the company from a financial standpoint. I mean, these loans to pay off suppliers and then using your retirement fund to plug holes in the ship, I mean, that's a really bad decision-making process, reckless all around. Look, a mistake is forgivable, right? If she had come to you and said,

I messed up, I didn't file these forms on time, we need to get out in front of this, let's figure this out. That would be a very different conversation. She could have avoided a lot of pain that way. But hiding the ball and, yeah, using your retirement fund money to plug holes in the ship, that is what worries me about her, both as your business partner and as your spouse. So I don't know what you do with that. That's up to you. For some people, this would be a conflict to repair. For other people, it might be a deal breaker. But it definitely starts with some conversations about how this happened, why she made this call, why she kept you in the dark about it, how you guys are going to handle this now going forward, separately and together. But also,

to be fair, I think you guys need to talk about how you, you, our friend here is writing in, how you missed this, because, look, maybe this was a situation where your wife handled all the finances always, and you totally trusted her to do that, and you had good reason to trust her up until now, and she misled you, and you just, you never had a reason to doubt her before this, and this really truly was not your fault. But it's, It's worth considering whether you also might have inadvertently allowed this to happen. I mean, did you maybe avoid the financial stuff because you just didn't want to deal with it? Did you discount other signs that something wasn't quite right?

I think you did at least one big sign, which was the retirement fund liquidation decision. You know, did you bury your head in the sand, basically, in any way? When your wife told you a year ago that you were in a bit of trouble, that would have been a good moment to say, okay, fill me in, tell me everything, how bad is it? What do we owe? Who do we owe? How are we going to cover it? Are we paying our debts off in the right order? And also, how did we get here? And how do we avoid

digging ourselves into a deeper hole? But it sounds like maybe you didn't do that, or you weren't totally across this as a co-operator of the business. And maybe that was part of how this mistake happened. But I also think you have to ask your wife, why did you hide this from me? Like, walk me through the logic. Did I do something to make it hard for you, to be honest with me? Were you afraid of how I would react? Why did this become a secret instead of a problem for us to solve. And I commend you for being willing to take accountability for your piece in that. I think that's really important. But I also wonder if this is a dynamic that goes beyond the business. If this is a pattern that also shows up in your marriage and your lives in general, that's really important. And I think

that's what you guys really need to dig into now. I totally agree, Gabe. The way they navigate these conversations, that'll help him come to terms with all this. And that'll tell him if there's a way forward here with his wife. They might be able to recover from this if they use it to learn, handle challenges very differently in the future. But if she can't or, you know, doesn't want to, then my feeling is this is a risky spouse to stay with, certainly a risky spouse to manage a business with. You have to have total trust with a partner to handle things on the up and up. And I'm very sorry that you're in this boat. I can only imagine just how stressful it must be. This might hurt for a little while. But with a good lawyer and good conversations, I really think it'll be

survivable, sending you good thoughts and wishing you the best. You know what's better than a stint in federal prison, Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Would you take a moment and support our sponsors? All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are over on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Or you can email me, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. If you're lazy or you can't remember the name of a sponsor or you're wondering if we have a sponsor for something, definitely email me, hit me up. I will happily surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Sometime back, my sister cheated on her husband and ended up leaving him for a much younger guy, who, by the way, also cheated on his wife with her. This has been a very difficult situation for me to deal with as my brother-in-law was one of my best friends, a true brother to me. Oh, that is tough. So you lost somebody in the divorce, too, or at least you had to watch somebody you love suffer because of what your sister did, and that sucks. Yeah, very painful. I've had a hard time finding forgiveness and empathy for my sister, as she keeps telling me that she's the victim here, that this is just as hard for her as it is for her ex-husband, that she needs my love and support and so on.

So, okay, I mean, who am I to say, whether it's as hard for her as it is for him? Maybe everybody be hurt in this situation, but she's the victim? I mean, she cheated on him. What the heck? Curious thing to say, might reveal something about this sister, so the letter goes on. I understand that, but I can't help but be upset that both she and this other guy cheated on their spouses, especially when I know that her husband is a great person. She's the first to admit that he treated her amazingly, was a great husband and an all-around awesome person, but she finds this other guy more attractive.

Oh my God. I find the whole thing very shallow and hard to accept. Yeah. She's not going, well, we fell out of love, or I'm growing in a different direction. Right. Or it turns out I'm still finding myself, she's going, my ex was amazing and awesome, but this guy has a six-pack and Killian Murphy's cheekbones. Those cheekbones, though. Those cheekbones do.

I mean, I get it. You want to be attracted to your spouse. Fine. I'm not saying that doesn't matter, but like, that's why you threw away your marriage? What? Well, okay, so there's more to it than that as we're about to hear. So she goes on. Her new boyfriend is now showing major signs of being controlling, unhealthily jealous, and possibly abusive. Here we go. All right. How bad is it? They drink every night, and he's been convincing her to skip work to go to the bars with him. He's bugged her phone to the point of not only seeing everything she's, she does on her phone, but listening in on anything that goes through the mic and not just phone

conversations. He's forbidden her from seeing other guy friends. I'm not allowed to stay over anymore, and he's already trying to pull her away from her family. And she's threatened to never talk to us again because he's the only person she needs. Ooh, this is so bad. This is really bad. Yeah. Wow. So he's monitoring her, controlling her, isolating her from her career, from you, from her, family. I mean, this is textbook domestic abuse stuff. Incredibly concerning. They also got wedding rings after dating for only a couple months, and both are still married to their former spouses. He's now telling her that they need to have a baby. And even though she's always had strong feelings about never wanting kids, she tells us that she has to because it's what he wants

and he calls the shots. Oh my God. Hello. I feel like something is broken in this woman's brain. This just gets worse and worse, and it's terrifying. So these are all different ways to control her, right? He's locking it down with the ring after a couple months. Now he says they need to have a baby because he calls the shots. Massive red flags. This sounds like somebody you're talking to who's in a cult and cantor-scape. This guy's a real menace.

But the two of them together, obviously going nowhere good. She's, I won't say she's a willing participant, but she certainly threw herself into the situation. I'm worried that if they have a baby together, she'll never truly rid of it. herself of him if things do end up going south. Yeah, probably not. They'll be tethered to each other in some form for 18 years, possibly for life. Yeah, it's like she's been hijacked or something. This guy's like a virus that's infected her mind. It's got to be really hard to watch something like this, to say the least. So she goes on, I also had a colleague reach out and tell me many horrible things about this guy, that he's abusive, manipulative, and controlling, that he's a master blackmailer, that he's hard

to escape. Ooh, that's scariest detail so far. First of all, weird thing to say about a person, right? So it's confirmed. This dude has a reputation and a pattern. I am genuinely worried for her. So she goes on, but my sister thinks that this guy is perfect and her true soulmate sent to her from God. I'm worried my sister will be trapped in the situation and I have no idea how to get her out, but I don't believe that she'll listen to anyone else's opinion at this point. I've made it clear that I think this guy is sketchy and I don't approve of either of their actions. And she's made it clear that I must learn to love him and accept their actions or she'll never be at peace with me again.

Okay, so she's taking quite a hardline stance here, really digging her heels in. Okay, noted. I mean, she sounds insane. This is weird. Can I weigh in on this situation as an outsider, talk to her about the warning signs, and convince her that this is moving too fast? If not, how do I move on from this? Forgive my sister.

and accept her choice, signed Saving My Unsteady Sister from this straight-up monster of a mister. Jeez, dude, this is super sad. It's also very worrisome and upsetting. To go through a transformation this extreme this quickly, to blow up your normal life with a wonderful guy and then suddenly start dating an abuser who's the exact opposite of your husband. Something is happening here, right? What is going, it really makes me wonder if there's something huge going on here that our friend doesn't know about. Like, did she just pick up a heroin habit at some point or something? I don't get it. It would almost have to be an addiction or like a severe mental health issue that's been triggered to explain something. It's not like she has a, well, as far as we know, she doesn't have this long

history of dating questionable people. And then this is just one more. It was like she was married to this incredible, wonderful guy. And then she leaves him for this totally different human being. It's really scary. It's so bizarre. You expect this kind of behavior from somebody who gets like addicted to methamphetamine or something. Something's going on. She did say they're drinking every day, so that could be part of it, but it still doesn't really explain why she turned in such a dramatic way. A lot of people drink and drink too much, and they're not like, let me just ruin everything

about my life and record time, the speed run edition. There's something going on here. Then again, that could be a big part of it. It could be. So I'm obviously extremely concerned about your sister. Hard to escape. Again, I've never heard that said about a person. Yeah.

I mean, maybe a telemarketer or a debt collector. or something. I mean, I was kind of thinking more like IKEA. You go in there to get a lamp and you come out with freaking bunk beds and a bookshelf love seat combo called Fields Conundra. Conundra? I love that. Life conundra.

Right. But also, my heart goes out to you. I mean, once it makes it out of IKEA, of course, my heart goes out. You're her sibling, her friend. You've been pushed out. You've now have to sit back and watch her get involved with this monster. And my heart also goes out to her husband. your homie, this wonderful guy, who she just dumped to go be with this maniac. He must have been

confused. Oh, that guy's going through it. Yeah, and all of this speaks to your sister's personality, of course, her new boyfriend or a fiancee, whatever, apparently based on what you've shared. This guy is a textbook abuser. He's obviously an addict. He's running the board here. But your sister has to be at least somewhat willing to play along with all this, willing to at least get involved with him in the first place. We can't know why this is. I really wish we could. I wish she could. but I'm sure it's the standard cocktail of early wounds, unresolved patterns, some combination of vulnerability, low self-esteem, fear, a disposition of being easily influenced, et cetera. And on that level, yeah, I've got some compassion for her. She's a victim,

no doubt about it, but I'm sure your sister had plenty of signs early on that this guy was bad news. People that were this big of a mess, they can't hide that, ish. Right. And she probably dismissed those signs, or she interpreted them through the lens of like, oh, he just really loves me. Oh, this is what love looks like. Or, oh, yeah, he's a little intense, but I don't get to have a say here. And that is tragic. So you're not wrong to be worried. What this guy is doing to your sister is dangerous and it's wrong. But isolating her from her friends, her family, her work, in some ways, that's actually the most concerning thing to me right now. Because isolation is a classic element in domestic violence. It keeps victims from reaching out for help. It prevents them from

accessing points of view and information that would compromise the abuser. It cuts them off from crucial resources like relationships and money. And, you know, it also causes them to become dependent, even more dependent on their abuser, which is precisely what seems to be happening with her sister. Yes, exactly. And all the research shows that isolation makes it more difficult to escape an abusive relationship. So my top priority, and I know this is hard, my top priority would be to stay close to your sister however you can. And to hopefully do that in a way that it doesn't endanger her even more. The fact that he's bugging her phone, which, by the way, how do you even do that as a civilian? This dude is super creepy. I mean, she must, I say this

not to be a jerk. Like, I don't think you can do that on an iPhone without jailbreaking it. I think she's an Android gal. Got to be an Android gal. But this is creepy. It's a huge obstacle to getting her out of this situation. Of course, that's why he's doing it, by the way. But if you can stay close in other ways, maybe you have a secret email account. Protonmail.com. Free, encrypted, she can go there using the web browser and use private browsing and go in there.

Handwritten notes, meeting up for lunch regularly, which is probably your best bet. Whatever it is, you'll at least be creating some window, some lifeline for the day your sister realizes she's in deep trouble and goes like, oh God, I need help, I need to talk to my sister. At the same time, you really need to shift, your lens from trying to talk her out of this relationship to trying to understand why she's

in this insane relationship in the first place, why she's drawn to this guy, how this relationship is playing out. You know, normally, if this was somebody else writing in like a friend, I'd be like, oh, she grew up in this really crazy weird way and look at her dad, but this is her sister. That's what's confusing. If they were abused growing up, would that context not have been written in the email? Right. So that's what's so mystifying about this. She's being very clear with you. She's saying, this guy's perfect, he's my soulmate, you need to learn to love him and accept us, or I'm never going to be at peace with you again, which let's just acknowledge, that is straight up the language of a brainwashed cult victim. That is the language of cults.

Straight out of the coercive organization script, you're up against a lot there. So the more you go at that stance directly, the more you try to convince her logically that she's confused and wrong and in danger, the more she's probably going to dig her heels in. Because you're essentially threatening her sense of self, challenging her ego, pushing her to stand up to a guy who is objectively scary. This guy's a scary creep. All of which is, I'm sure, very daunting and destabilizing. Right. I think our friend here needs to rewind the tape and start more from a place of, so how are things going with your fiancee? How are you feeling these days? What is your relationship like? Oh, interesting. He made you quit your job and he took you on a bender for three

days? What was that like? Did you enjoy that? Did you have fun? You know, do you like spending time with him? What do you guys talk about? Oh, he wants to have a baby? Well, what do you want? Oh, you feel like you don't have a say in the matter? Why is that? I mean, this is your life too, right? This is your baby, so help me understand. I'm curious. You need to ask those questions with genuine interest, with a real desire to understand where your sister is these days, which is so hard to do. It almost you have to trick your brain into not saying the obvious logical thing, which is you're wrong and you need to get out. You need to almost like participate in this game of I'm going to meet you where you are so I can understand how you're thinking and feeling and invest in our relationship first.

Which let's just acknowledge that is so hard to do. Very hard. God, you almost have to become like an idiot. You have to suspend your judgment, tuck it away in the back of your mind, locate your empathy for your sister, turn off the voice in your head going, okay, convince her she's wrong, get her a motel room, and shake her until she, like, comes to her fences. You just have to focus on creating a space for her to get in touch with how she truly feels about all this, which, remember, she doesn't have that space. This guy is deliberately eliminating any space that she could have for coherent thought, because it's threatening to him, because he's a freaking psycho. That's right. So if you can help give that to her,

you'll be creating more freedom, a little more permission, more opportunity for her to go, huh, how do I feel about this? I haven't really thought about that for a few weeks. You know, what do I think about all of this behavior? Why do I feel like I don't have much say in this situation? And that's the beginning of the counter-programming that you're looking for. But you can't move too quickly or let your agenda, your very reasonable agenda, overshadow that crucial stage where you build trust and you build rapport, which is necessary to eventually influence your sister the other way. But yes, if you do that enough, over time, you can work up to saying things like, look, I hear you. You love this guy. You want to be with him. I'm maybe willing to accept that

if that's really what you want, but as you know, I love you. And as your sister, I'm hearing you say that you're going to have a baby when you don't really want one. You might be giving up your job to spend more time with him in a way that doesn't sound very productive or healthy. He's monitoring you, he's isolating you. I mean, that really worries me. And it makes me want to make sure that you're okay. So can you see how I would feel that way too? But again, I can't stress this enough. You can't jump to that too quickly. Another idea just occurred to me.

Going back to the update, we shared a few weeks ago from the woman whose psychiatrist hit on her and then she reported him, the whole, if this were happening to somebody I loved, how would I feel about it? That was like sort of the technique here. Oh, yes. We talk about this all the time,

how hard it is to read the label from inside the jar. Our friend from that episode pointed out that if a friend or loved one had told her that their shrink hit on them, she would have been outraged, she would have been horrified, she would have been like, report him. So when the time was right,

I wonder if you could say to your sister, look, if I were dating a guy and he bugged my phone and he told me to play hooky from work so we could go drinking and he told me that I couldn't see my friends or my sister, and he pulled me away from our family,

how would you feel about that? What would you tell me in that situation? Right. And really encourage her to give you answer to that. And again, not in like an agro-judgy way, like, huh? What would you say then, Mabel? But in a genuinely curious way, like if the situation were reversed, how would you see things? And just watch the rusty gears turn in her head. Because I think it's going to take some time and maybe that'll give your sister the perspective she needs. But again, it's just only going to be

effective if you laid the groundwork that we just talked about. But look, if your sister stays in this relationship and things do get worse. I mean, if you get any indication that this guy is physically abusing her, that she's ever in immediate danger, obviously, I would intervene more strongly. I would call 911. I would report this guy to as many law enforcement agencies as possible. I would do whatever I could to keep my sister safe. But at this stage, it sounds like your sister is in the most danger emotionally, intellectually, possibly soon financially. So I think the battleground right now is for her mind and her heart. So I would also go back and listen to a couple feedback Friday letters that we took about people who are stuck in abusive relationships. We go into a lot of specifics about how to actually

help somebody leave a dangerous situation and most importantly how to do that safely. And I would also definitely check out the National Domestic Violence Hotline, their website, or pick up the phone and call them. They are so helpful and they have great resources on how to help a loved one in a relationship like this. We're going to link to that, all of that in the show notes for you. But you're right, if your sister just will not engage with you, if she is determined to be with this guy, it's so tragic, you might have to accept her choice for the time being, as heartbreaking as that is. But of course, acceptance doesn't mean endorsement, and it also doesn't mean giving up. And accepting your sister's situation doesn't mean that you're accepting the relationship.

But that's where her process ends, and as we always talk about, your process begins. Right. And that's a process of working through all the awful feelings that, watching a loved one be abused brings up, right? Sadness and fear most of all and the grief of losing your sister a little bit. I don't know if you can move on from this. And I don't think you should entirely move on because your sister could really use you close by when this relationship inevitably goes south. So this isn't about putting this in the past and abandoning her completely. It's more about making room for the sad fact that your sister is choosing this monstrous guy and you might not be able to stop it from happening. Gabe, I got to say,

I'm especially worked up that they might bring a child into this situation, man. Yeah. This is not a guy who should be parenting. Obviously, he had crappy parents himself and or has screwed up his own life. It really does sound like he wants to use a child in my sort of 30,000 foot overview at a glance as a lever. He wants to use a child as a lever to keep her under his thumb. Maybe he's got some sort of narcissistic desire to procreate.

But it almost sounds like, since it's like, you need to have a baby and you need to do it now, It's almost like, well, how do I lock her in forever, forever? Oh, we have a kid, and then I'm tied to her by law, and I can always take the kid if she doesn't do what I want. I mean, that's where this is headed. It's very upsetting, but it's also upsetting because she doesn't want to have children either. So what kind of mother is she going to be? Right. A dark Jordan idea.

Oh, let's hear it. What is it? There's a nimbus cloud coming. I don't know the cloud types. I think nimbus is probably the right one. Weather pattern is changing. Let's hear it. What do you got?

She should get a birth control shot on the DL. just to protect herself in the meantime, because she's not going to be allowed to use protection when this guy is like, you know, forcing himself on her or being intimate with her. He's not going to be like, yeah, wear protection and do this the safe way. He's going to be like, oh, I want a baby.

This is what's happening. And he's going to find birth control pills if she has it. So what I know, based on my limited medical knowledge here, and this is not medical advice, you could take your sister to lunch, take her to a doctor or even a clinic and get it. And there are online clinics where you can get it mailed to you discreetly, and you could give her the shot yourself while you guys assemble that felds conundra

that you got from IKEA. And those things last for like three months at a time, some of this stuff, this birth control. So you don't need like a weekly opportunity to give it to it. You can just be like jab and then she's good. And that buys her time. This is, of course, not a solution to the whole relationship, obviously. But one of the worst outcomes, in my opinion, of this situation would be to create a child with these people as parents and with this guy having his thumb in your life forever.

It's really scary. Like, this guy is dangerous. Sending you and your sister a big hug and wishing you all the best. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 24 years old and have had a full-time role at the same company since graduating college two and a half years ago. I've done well for myself and have been promoted twice to the point where I'm now making six figures, something I never thought would be possible this early in my

career. So cool. That's amazing. Killing it. Proud of you. However, I've always had a dream of seeing a bit of the world and backpacking internationally long term, like five to six months. It's one of those things that I know I'm going to regret down the line if I don't do now while I'm young. Man, I feel you traveling at any age is incredible, but backpacking when you're young, you're footless, fancy free, when you don't mind, frankly, sleeping in train stations and hangovers can't touch you. And that youthful skin is still nice and taught. You're not that weird old guy at the hostel. That is special. So I'm planning to leave my job in the next couple of months, return home for the summer to spend time with family where I'll likely work a temporary gig,

and then set out for Southeast Asia later this year. Ah, so excited. Can we come with you, dude? This sounds epic. I want to go. Seriously. This is. letter has me considering whether I should risk being that weird old guy at the hostel. There's always that one weird guy at the hostel, you know, when you stay in those and there's Jordan. Yeah, it's Jordan. Like, you can't afford hotels, bro. You're like 40.

No, I just like hanging around young women. That's not weird. Let's play Monopoly. Yeah, I remember in Costa Rica, there was an odd duck at this hostel we stayed at who was just like wildly out of place. But as I get older, I'm like, yeah, I would risk being that guy if it meant that I could have like a really interesting experience. So yeah. Dude straight up had a midlife crisis and here you are being like, what a weirdo.

And he's like, I know. I remember him showing me his photography on his digital camera in the lobby of the, he's like, check out these shots. I've just picked up a photography. I've been taking photos of the pigeons. I'm like, you're a weird man. But with time, I appreciate this a lot more. Okay, the letter goes on. I'm confident that this is the right decision for me in the grand scheme of things, but I'd be remiss if I didn't worry about what taking almost a year off from working would do for my career. That's interesting. He said almost a year off when it was just five to six months a moment ago. I wonder if he's worrying a little bit more about how it sounds to people, but whatever, whether it's six months or a year, I get it. How can I explain this gap in my resume

to a potential employer in a compelling way? As avid travelers yourselves, do you have any advice on how to hone my story? How can I mitigate career setbacks from taking time off from work to travel, signed putting on the backpack without having to take a step back? This reminds me of one I started my career as a lawyer, they were like, hey, do you think that you could work from May instead of working from September? And I was like, what if I say no? And all the other guys are like, dude, you're going to make like $45,000 over the course of that period. You should definitely do this. And I was like, eh, nah, I'm going to go backpacking. And they were like, okay, we totally understand. So there's one data point. But these are really good questions and

ones that only get more relevant as you get older. So first of all, I obviously love how thoughtful you're being. I love that you're keeping an eye on the bigger picture, your fulfillment in the grand scheme of things, and your more immediate career prospects. Super smart. That's exactly the right lens on all this. When you're 90 years old, you're not going to go, man, I really wish I'd spent those six months when I was 24 working that first job out of college. You're going to be going, man, I'm so happy I got to explore Southeast Asia when I was young. And I am so, glad that I got, you know, mouth chlamydia from that girl in that hostel in Nampen. I'm kidding. You're not going to get mouth chlamydia, probably. You're going to get the other kind.

The other one, yeah. And by the way, if you do, totally treatable. And afterwards, kind of a funny story. For sure, one of the deathbed chats. But seriously, this trip is going to be amazing. It's going to open up your world in an incredible way. I'm super pumped for you. And even though travel like this, It does take you off the conventional path for a short time. It really is an investment in yourself and in your worldview and in your beliefs. Assuming that you don't just get hammered every night and sleepwalk through all those amazing temples and treat this trip like an escape, which given your letter, I don't think you're going to do.

So that's already part of the answer to your question, really making the most of your time, doing this trip deliberately, consciously, soaking up everything you see. And that means reminding yourself to be super present, enjoy every moment, take in every detail. It also means reading up on the places you visit, educating yourself about the sites, the history, the people, all of that. It means forming meaningful relationships with the people you travel with, the people you meet along the way, locals, other travelers, even people back home. It means processing your experience along the way by keeping a journal and taking notes

and writing letters and talking about what you're seeing and what it means to you with the people you're with. By the way, Gabe, this reminds me when I was in Germany, they were like, write a journal, write a journal, and I was like, I don't want to freaking write a journal. And then they kind of made us do it. They're like, we're going to read it. And then we're going to embarrass you in front of the group if you don't have a journal.

So I started writing in this journal, and I still have it. It's one of those like meed, neat books or whatever, which probably don't exist anymore. So the beginning of this is like my crappy handwriting. And I'm like, oh, Germany is fun. There's like fun people here making friends. And then it's like goes through this dip into homesickness. And then it's like, actually, I'm starting to really like it here

and learning German. And then I didn't read the whole thing. I really should. But I flipped to the end, and the whole thing is written in German at the end. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. And I was like, wow, you can watch me learn German in real time when you read this thing. What a great document that is.

Yeah, yeah. It's a shame my handwriting looks like Donald Trump signing a bill on his, you know, it's like very scribbly, like what is this supposed to say kind of handwriting, like a doctor? but yeah, if you can get past that. You were having an experience and the journal was part of your way of capturing it. Yeah, and it's really cool to see. So I really, I'm not like a journal everyday guy,

but when you're doing this, I think you should journal. What I'm really saying is, take these six months to go deeper into yourself, noticing what thoughts and feelings come up for you when you're away from home, asking yourself what you want out of life, what kind of human being you want to become, you want to fill the well on this trip.

Right. I'm not saying it can't be fun. It should be. It will be. I just mean the real joy of travel is becoming more connected to yourself, not less. And if you do that, you're going to have a ton of raw material

to tell a great story to employers when you get back. But I do think this story would be much stronger with some more concrete accomplishment. So here's an idea. What if you came up with a reading list of like the top 50 business and career

or psychology, whatever books, or the best open source lectures and talks out there, and then you just read or listened to them for like an hour each day of your trip. Give yourself this mini MBA, a mini life school crash course. Another idea, you're backpacking through Vietnam,

Cambodia, Thailand, India. What if you chose one of those languages, you start studying it now, grab duolingo, babble, get a tutor, which I recommend, whatever it is. You practice as much as possible on the trip. And by the time you're back, you're just proficient in like Hindi or whatever,

if not pretty advanced. Or you could pick a hobby that's really popular, in these countries and almost become an apprentice. So what's that sport, Gabriel, where it's like volleyball, but you can only play with your feet? What? I've never heard of this. What is this? You've never seen this? Oh my gosh. Vietnamese women play it. I see it. I'm like, holy cow, how did you do that? Never heard of this. Think hacky sack plus volleyball. Volleyball soccer. It's absolutely incredible. When you watch it, you just rub your eyes and you're like, am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? Oh, okay. How did she do that? It's a niche sport, but yeah. Well, that's what I'm talking about, right? So go

or maybe more mainstream, go find the best judo academy or whatever in each country and trained at each one for a few weeks. I don't know if you're really into cricket, go find a cricket instructor in India, play for a couple hours a day. Or you could join a cooking school, a language school, a coding boot camp, a meditation school, whatever floats your boat, you get the idea, something that would give you an even deeper connection with the country, put you in touch with other cool people who are passionate about this stuff to you, and add to your skills and knowledge. Then when you're interviewing, you're not just going to be going like, yeah, I saw every Buddhist Temple in Southeast Asia was great. You'd get to say, I spent six months in Southeast Asia. I studied

Hindi. Now I'm conversational. I trained with one of the best judo instructors in Vietnam. I read every business book. I didn't have time to get to while I was working full time. I went deep into the world of textile manufacturing, and that's how I ended up applying for this job. You know, you get the idea. You can already see how this story is way more compelling than like, oh, my trip was awesome. I'm ready to get back to work though. Right. Basically imagine these interviews a year from now and ask yourself, what do I want to be able to say in those conversations?

What do I want to know? What skills would I want to be able to brag about? What functions do I want to be an expert in? And work backward from there to the habits and intentions that you're going to need to develop on the trip. And by the way, that same advice goes for anyone who wants to grow at any stage of life. This is not just for people in their 20s who are going to be backpacking. So that's my advice.

You're not going to have to explain the gap in your resume. if it's not a gap at all. But look, I want to be clear about something. I don't mean to take all the fun and spontaneity out of your trip. There's a version of my advice that will absolutely ruin this experience for you. So don't be the guy watching four hours of YouTube lectures in the hostel every day

because he's freaking out about how he's going to justify Vietnam to some stinking suit in six months. Right. Don't be the guy so obsessed with getting those sweet, sweet XP points on duolingo and keeping your street going that you forgot to look up and notice the cute girl staring at you on the train. Right. Yeah. Maybe she's the one who gives you mouth chlamydia.

Exactly. Yeah. Or shows you a rural village that you would never see on your own. I mean, why not both, right? I hope it's both. I hope he gets the full experience. So please give yourself permission to have fun and stay open to the happy accidents that make travel so amazing. Those are important too. Even more important, you could stumble into a cooking class one day that changes your life. You could meet someone. You could fall in love. you could realize you have a weird affinity for Vietnamese, not Hindi, and you want to look for jobs that take you to Saigon and stay there for 10 years,

anything is possible. And part of your job is going with the flow, not over-structuring this trip. But to me, that's the real point of this deliberate planning, not to miss the experience, but to give that experience a little more structure, a little more intentionality to put yourself in the path of even more happy accidents. As long as you keep investing in yourself, As long as you keep chasing experiences that add to your personality and add to your character, you're going to be gold.

And if you do that, I promise you're going to have a hell of a story, probably a lot of stories to tell in these interviews. I mean, I'm thinking of stuff that when I was traveling through Southeast Asia, it's a wild place. This is 20 years ago. I guarantee you a lot of the places I went to are just as weird as they were when I was there. I remember instead of going from Vietnam to Cambodia by plane, that's the other thing.

If you travel overland and you don't take planes... Oh, it's so much better. So much better, man. I took a boat from Vietnam through the Mekong Delta to Cambodia. Oh, wow. You stop at this place and I'm like, hi, I have an E visa and they're like, dog, this is the jungle. We don't take the E visa.

You got to just pay, you got to just bribe the cops to get through. So I go to this little window and there's this cop straight up sleeping. And there's a cage next to the little hut where he's sleeping and it has a giant snake in it. And I'm like, okay, what's up with that? And I remember asking someone else. I'm like, what do you think they're going to do with the snake? And they're like, oh, they're going to eat that. Oh, that was lunch?

And I'm like, okay. I mean, it was a lunch for a family of seven. It was a huge snake. Oh, my God. That's so intense. Yeah, and I was like, that's really aggressive and disgusting because it's in this tiny cage. It's not supposed to be in there. I thought you were going to say that was like his partner on his beat.

Like, customs and border patrol is an anaconda. Oh, yeah. Instead of a drug dog, he's got a snake. Yeah. No, so I wake him up and I give him 20 bucks and I get this like really crappy pencil, handwritten stampy visa and they're like, okay, cool. And then this kid comes up to me, he's like, you want to change money and he gives me like blatantly counterfeit inkjet $5 bills. And I'm like, you know, I probably can't change these back. And I don't think I've ever handled

counterfeit money. So I still have one of the bills. Those bills they trade you for at all of those bus depots and border spots are the worst bills you got, even if they're real, they're like the most faded, torn up like, like you're like, did you literally launder this? Did you put this in a laundry machine for six months. Yeah, how bad the money is. No, this money, like it was like the wrong color ink, the wrong paper. And I'm like, no American who's handled this money, their whole life is going to be like, this is legitimate.

But I was like, I don't feel like having his boss come and talk to me. And then as I turn around with my newly changed money in the candy that I bought from him, this dude rolls buying a motorcycle. And he's got a wooden cage on the back that it was built from sticks, like just a jungle hitched. And it was packed so tightly with rats. that their tails were sticking out and they were like wiggling around. And I was like, why does this man have a cage jammed full of rats? And also, how do you fit that many rats in there without other rats getting out?

Because it was tightly packed with rats. What was he doing with them? Don't have a clue. Feeding him to the snake that the policeman had? I really have no idea. That's got to be it, right? You feed that to somebody. I guess.

Well, that's another way to get mouth chlamydia, just saying. It was gross. And when I was in Cambodia, man, I remember I met these girls that were local. and they were like, oh, are you hungry? And I was like, I'm so hungry because we were out at a bar. I was like, I can't drink right now. I'm hungry. So they're like, oh, I'll go get you a snack.

Oh, no. And she came back with a bag of tarantulas that were roasted. Did I tell you this? No, that's horrifying, but amazing. I ate the whole bag. You ate one? I ate the whole bag. No, you didn't.

I ate the entire bag. Stop it. There's a photo of me with half a tarantula hanging out of my mouth somewhere in my photo in my photo. That is so disgusting, but I need to see that photo. I'll get it for you. Please do. How did you not get mouth chlamydia?

That's my question. I'm not sure because where do you get those tarantulas? Do you just find them in the jungle and then the dude throws them on the grill? Because it was a dude like grilling street food and he's like, ah, I've got tarantulas, no problem. Yeah, they must be Legion in the region. Yep, Legion in the region. And they were quite tasty.

Anybody who said a tarantula will probably tell you kind of good, juicy, not vegan, I don't think. I don't know. Are insects vegan? No, they are, no, they are not. They are not. But that would be so funny if they had a vegan version of tarantulas, though, in restaurants in L.A. They're like, tofu tarantulas.

It's Satan-based. Yeah. No, it's not vegan. And I feel bad for those spiders is how I feel. But for the sake of your story, that is incredible. Have an incredible time. My man, send us pictures if you can. I got pre-fomo already and nostalgia from my young and single days of bumming around,

getting weird abroad. Just try to dodge that mouth chlamydia. You're going to be fine. Take a Z-pack with at least one. And maybe around a Cyprofloxacin. Cypro for short. They'll know what you're talking about. Is that another IKEA furniture name?

No, it's actually like if you get anthrax, they'll give that to you. But also if you have severe, I just ate a bag of tarantulas level diarrhea. This is how you stop it. That was so funny. It also sounds like Cyprophroxen. Yeah, it kind of does. It's a new lamp from IKEA that you take 12 hours to put together. It is.

It's the track lighting. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. and thank you so much. Don't forget about the two-parter we did this week with Adam Gamal, if you haven't listened to that yet. Really incredible story. Egyptian immigrant, special forces, got all the spy stuff going on. Really kind of fascinating and well-rounded conversation. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do

the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course, which is 100% free. It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the think-ific platform at six-minute networking.com. These drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff. 20 years ago. I want you to dig the well before you get thirsty folks, build relationships before you need them. You can find them at 6-minute networking.com. Also, in case you didn't know, we got a sub-reddit for the show. I don't run it, but people are talking about the show and episodes on Reddit. You can find it over at the Jordan Harbinger. It's the only one called Jordan Harbinger. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. We're going to dive into a new format for that thing, and we're

going to be doing some giveaways, like I've said in the past. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Colleen.

Riddell. And ditto Aaron Hoskins, her advice is general and informational in nature. Please seek independent legal representation before making any decisions. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into,

here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. What I tried to do was thank a thousand people who had even the smallest role in making my cup of coffee possible. And a thousand years ago, oh, that's not a lot. It's a lot. Oh, my God. It was a lot. A hundred people would be a tedious. No, it was way more than I anticipated.

Ten times that many. Everything we do requires hundreds, thousands of interconnected people and that we take for granted. And just making this mental switch, just for. a selfish point of view is very good because it really does help you appreciate the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of focusing on the three or four that go wrong. There's a great quote. I wish I'd come up with it myself, but it says it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. So I had to fake it for a long time. You know, I would wake up in a grumpy mood, but I'd be like, I have to spend an hour calling or visiting people and thanking them.

And I'm not in the mood to do that. No. So it was like acting. It was like method acting. And I would force myself to do it. But I'll tell you, by the end of that hour, your mind, you know, the cognitive dissonance is too much. Your mind will switch over to gratefulness. There's a great quote that happiness does not lead to gratitude.

Gratitude leads to happiness. having that mindset really will make you happier. For more with AJ Jacobs and his fascinating journey to thank everyone involved in his cup of morning coffee and an inside look at just how complex the supply chain of our lives really is, check out episode 174 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard,

so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think,

the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches

that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.