The Jordan Harbinger Show - 981: Bobby Gunn | The 73-0 Undefeated Bare-Knuckle Boxer

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

Grab a front-row seat to the gritty world of bare-knuckle boxing with undefeated champ Bobby Gunn and his 'Bare Knuckle' biographer Stayton Bonner here! What We Discuss with Bobby Gunn and Stayton Bonner: The culture and traditions of — as well as the stereotypes, lifestyle choices, and challenges faced by — the traveler community in which Bobby was raised. How Bobby started fighting drunks for money at the not-so-tender age of 11. The rich history — and brutal realities — of bare-knuckle boxing. How Bobby answered the call of the underground bare-knuckle boxing circuit and what the costs have been along the way. The evolution of bare-knuckle boxing, and Bobby's indelible mark on the sport.  And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/981  This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals  Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!  Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to checkout is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. Before we start this show, I want to let you know it has some adult themes in it, so no kids in the car for this one. And if you leave the kids in the car and you still play the episode, don't blame me when they have nightmares. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. I had a buddy called George.

He's a good guy, and we were fighting a fight, so these guys pulled guns out after the fight was over. And George pretended he had two guns in his pocket. Let him loose now! These guys said he had guns, and they dropped the guy. This is the same, man. You can't make it up. It's like a movie.

And we all got away. money too, but I'm saying, I've had all this stuff. I had a gun put to my head. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional astronaut, real life pirate, hacker, special operator, music, mogul, or extreme athlete.

And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, and cyber warfare, AI, crime and cults, and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, one of the greatest bare knuckle boxers of all time, Bobby Gunn. Really, the world champion of bare knuckle.

And man, what a story. Bobby grew up as an Irish traveler. Or some people might say, Gypsy. We don't really say that anymore, kids. And he was fighting drunk men in parking lots by age 11. Age 11. We'll discuss Bobby's upbringing, his training, fighting in illegal underground matches run by the mob,

actually kind of like all the mobs, and some close calls where he nearly died, as well as a bit of background into traveler culture and wild tales from Bobby's life as a fighter and beyond. Also in studio today is Staten Bonner, author of Bobby's biography, who spent something like a decade and a half

shadowing Bobby for the book and almost died alongside with him and was also in the basement with the leopards chained to the walls. You're going to hear that story. Staten adds color and teases a few stories out of Bobby that I don't think we would have gotten otherwise and is all in a welcome addition to the conversation. By the way, if you have trouble understanding Bobby, you can go to our YouTube channel.

We're going to have some subtitles ready. I can understand him just fine, but I think if English maybe isn't your first language, it might be a little bit harder. He's got a traveler accent. I didn't know that was a thing, but that's a thing. Also, please note graphic depictions of violence in this episode, if you got little kids in the car, maybe skip to another episode for now and listen to this one later. All right, here we go with Bobby Gunn.

So listeners of this show, no, I usually don't cover sports, and this is not exactly a sports story, but the press release, which I seldom even bother reading for the pitch for this, caught my attention because I read Bobby that your dad had you fighting basically just drunk guys in parking lots at age 11. And I, like, that's just, that's one of the craziest things I've ever heard about someone's childhood. Like, people like to write about their childhood and they're like, yeah, I worked in my dad's bakery and I got up at 4 a.m. And I'm like, wow, that really sucks when you're 15. Beating up drunk guys in parking lots when you're 11 is an order of magnitude or 10 above that? Maybe how about nine, 10 years old? I was doing that, fighting the guys,

and you look at that today. It's like a former child abuse you would say, but if you understand where I come from my culture, my upbringing, all dogs are dogs. They've got canine breed, and all cats are fleeing on, right? But there's different breeds of dogs, poodles, swallows, and they're pit bulls. We're pit bulls. The gypsy traveler people with diapers on, I was thrown one-toos. I immortalized a fight game, and when I say they're drunk, a lot of these guys weren't staggered them down. They were there a fight. And they were laughing. Are you kidding? Fight this little boy? A wee boy said like a buzzstop, and I wasn't a normal wee boy.

You know, I was like a assassin, but it prepared me. If you're going to go swim with sharks, you better train with sharks and be around sharks. You just can't start jumping up until you're going to be around. I was raised around it, formed into molded by it. Unfortunately, in my life, there was a lot of darkness and growing up. It was tough full world, my brother. You know, talk about giddos in New York City and like Baltimore here, brother, these giddles were to haul the end to a period where I come from. Just to get out my environment, I climb them walls.

A lot of black is evilness, drama, hatred, porn is poverty. Just to get out of that, it's a great achievement in my life. Have you, I never do this, by the way, and I'm not, I swear, I'm not this guy. But have you seen Batman? Because it's like Bain, right? You know, Bain, the guy that crawls out of that prison in the desert? And he's like, oh, Batman, yeah, I see, I know. I'm like Batman, but the life we had, it molded me to where I am

and going and become a world champion in boxing, win the bare-knuckle world title and fight these fights. But see, when I was fighting these other fights, these underground fights, bare-nacle fights, I was a seasoned fighter. At 13 years old, I was champions, the actual titles, I was seasoned. And I remember one time I went and fought an event, and I beat this open-class fighter, and it was a shock, right?

the woman you can believe it. And I'm walking out of the arena and the reporter wrote, he says, there he's playing with a Rubik's Cube talking to his mom, oblivia to what he just accomplished like I was a child. It was just, it was normal,

like the light switch would come on when a fight would come on. There's a whole different person. But my people would come from, fighting is our religion. My grandfather was a champion fighter. My great grandfather, old Black Bob Williamson, was a great athlete.

It goes back hundreds and hundreds of years. But if I didn't have that, push and drive, and the hard upbringing from my old father, I wouldn't be able to do what I've done today. Where did you move from? And I know you're a traveler, and I'm going to get into that, because that is super fascinating. But where are you from? Is that even a question you can ask a traveler? Oh, yeah, yeah. All my people come from Scotland, the Scottish Chipsy Travelers, and my dad's side, my mom's an Irish chippy traveler. So when my dad married my mom, the Scotch and Irish was like a shocker, like, whoa, wait a minute, the orange and the green, a big mix up. And they produced a mutant

like me. But I mean, then I'm, yes, all both sides and my moms and my dad's family was all and, you know, that's, we're proud of gypsy travel of people. We're proud of our heritage. There's good and bad at all races of people, all in the world. Unfortunately, my people are stereotyped, a different way of painting with a brush that you should be painted with. If you look for good, you'll find good, if you look for bad, you'll find bad. But you've got to know this year. In every race, there's good and bad. My people are good people. We're great talent amongst our people, singing and dancing and fighting. It was the number one thing, but they don't show it.

Family members can sing better than anybody you hear in a radio, and they won't do it. They won't come out and do it. Just keep a little profile. Because we're used to being persecuted real bad. To this day, in England, there's places in bars and pubs. No tankers or pikesies allowed. That's they call the African-American man the N-word. Now, think about that this day and age, 24.

This very day. When I lived in the UK, I heard the word pikey, and I was like, oh, what's that? It sounds like something from like, you know, the Middle Ages. I just assumed it was like a word for night or something like that. I was in a bar. And I said to this girl that I worked with, we were lawyers at the time. I said, what's a pikey? Like really loud because I was like, I've heard this word and nobody, and somebody told, and John said it. And they were like, shh. Right? Because we're in a pub, just drinking. And I didn't realize that this was like a slur at all. And I said, what? Pikesy's a bad word? And like, you know, probably had a couple beers. And I was just like,

it can't be that bad. It doesn't sound like a bad word. The bartender's looking at me like, is this guy really just like saying that at full volume? And there were guys at the back table looking at us. And my friend was like, don't, just stop talking now. Just stop. We'll just tell you at the office on Monday what this is all about. And it turns out, as you mentioned, that is not a word that most polite people just say at full volume when they're having a beer. Exactly.

And this is like a nice pub where lawyers hang out, right? It's like in the Canary Wharf of London. It'll bust that out there. But travelers, it's such an interesting culture, man, because first, you said Gypsy Traveler, but I read on the Internet, which is the arbiter of all truth, that Gypsy's not exactly the word that you should use either for this. I mean, you can say whatever you want, but it's not something I should say. Like, Gypsy, we'll take that one better than any other word, but that's what we are. It goes back to the Romany Gypsy people when they venture off to Scotland, Ireland, England.

And there's English travel, gypsies, there's Scottish, Irish gypsies, and Scottish Irish gypsies. And that's my people are Scots and Irish. We're all the one people. We've got different words we use. We speak the whole different languages. I can speak them all. You know, we're good people, good, good hardworking people, a lot of them. And we're very proud people.

So just to give the listeners a little bit of a recap, because I did a little bit of research on this, I guess the reason people say gypsies is because people, I don't know, hundreds of years ago, actually thought that your people, your tribes, or whatever you call it, had moved from Egypt. Yeah. And that was actually not always the case. They come from India slash Scotland slash Irish. It's hard to say. Even the Bible says the lost tribe.

You know, we don't know what tribe that is. I mean, I do know this year that it's hundreds and hundreds of years of traditions and culture. They're good people. A lot of them, you know, but it's like this year, in every race, Latinos, Oriental, you know, the white, weight and after a race. Oh, there's good and bad in every race. But my people, you only hear about the bat. Well, yeah. But they don't ever talk about the good things they're done. Like Tyson and Fury, look at that man's done. He's an honest spirit world champion. He come back from things that they rid him off, addictions, that he overcome it, and he's top of the world. And you

know this? When he won the world, every title in England, the queen wouldn't even honor him. Because he was a traveler and she thought it was kind of trashy. He was asked to leave a restaurant, Jordan, with his wife, five years ago. Oh, my God. Because we don't serve your kind here. Honest to God, I've been told that. I'm shocked. He told me and my wife in Orlando, Florida, walked to Disney World 10 years ago, my little girl,

we know your people, no, we have to leave the park, sir. What? Where is this? In Orlando, Disney World. They kicked you out of Disney World? Yes, they did. We know your people. We do not want you.

That's horrible. I was so embarrassed. So just come on, she said, come on. Now, honestly God, Jordan, you know your stuff. He does, too. When you know our people, you know the background, A lot of people are oblivious to like, what's he even talking about? But yes, they have said that to me.

I've been a World Championship fights, brother. And you know, I don't care about a cut nose. I'll fight my nose and my nose hanging off. A little cut my nose, referee jump in and grab me and say, go back to America, you a gypsy bastard. My hand of gut. Unbelievable. Brother, names like that.

It's hurt me all my life growing up. I was deprived of a lot of things for being a gypsy traveler. You're stamped with a birth. this is quite shocking because, first of all, 90% of America is probably like, I think I've heard of gypsies. Aren't those the people that read your future in a crystal ball or something? Like, it's very, but like, no one's like, oh, kick them out of Disneyland. Yeah, yeah. It's very rare.

And, like, I know that traveler culture is somewhat nomadic and there's all these different rules and things like that. There's a specific culture and religion. But I really thought that prejudice against travelers was like something from the 50s and sort of. had calmed down with the civil rights movement, but apparently not, because Mike Tyson only gets kicked out of restaurants because he doesn't pay the bill. You're getting kicked out of the, Tyson's getting kicked out because he's a traveler. It's a totally different thing. It's unbelievable, man. You know something, Jordan, unfortunately in this world, race is an hatred or something to always

be here. You just kind of got to roll the punches and move around it. All we can do is try our best to don't get involved with, but to change it. Here's the problem. If someone's full, hate and they're rotten, you're not going to change them. Let them fade out. Because you only get yourself aggravated. Someone insults you, you're a fool to argue backgroom. Just move on. One of your languages, I know you speak like five. One of them is called Kant, which is Scottish Kant. I thought they, I'm sure there's a joke in here, but it's like Kant because you can't understand what anyone is saying when they speak it. This is kind of like almost like Celtic sort of OG pre-English stuff that y'all speak. I mean, it goes way back centuries. It's really interesting.

I'll give you a laugh, but they can't, okay? My boy was training, and I'm a gym. He's a boxist's a little guy. He's a little baby. The African, the black guy, the old train was a good guy. Remember, I'm speaking cat to my boy. I just, Fikim Shan. That means get him good.

Fikim Shan, is come on, Bobby. I'm walking at the gym. The old man, wait a man, Bobby, I thought his name was Fikim Shan. I'm saying. Yeah, Fikim Shan. It's so interesting. Man, I should do a whole show about traveler lifestyle because the history is fascinating.

lifestyle's fascinating. I know y'all have a lot of rules and different things that are almost kind of secretive, but let's get back to fighting for now. If we have more time, we can talk more about the traveler. It's so freaking interesting to me. Tell me how your dad trained you. I know we sort of covered that you were fighting drunks in parking lots at age 11. Were you waking up in the middle of the night to do that? Because I know I'm in bed by like 9.30 on an ideal night because I got two little kids. Yeah, unfortunately, those nights my dad would be probably drinking would be in an old motel or an RV trailer and he pulled back up the lights being high beams. And that's when you knew, you know, something was wrong.

Mom, she says, uh, she would let her sleep, don't do this, don't do his, oh, Jackie, get him out, Jackie, Jackie, Jackie, get him out. Come on, and go, jolly here, that means come here, Hager the Gadji, that means beat up the man. That was it. Him? All that's fighting him. Oh, you're sick.

And the wee boy, brug, bust this one up. This one like this is from the bumper, like this, this stye. And the old man, and he said this word, and I know it sounds crazy, but a right week, he said, but a right way, man. I wouldn't even say that. It took away all the craziness, because my day, he showed me that love.

It sounds word to tell you that, but it was my life. And I love my own man. And I thank God for his craziness. His train of methods, Jordan, was insane. Yeah. At nighttime, a black and white TV set, an old videotape. I'm talking with everybody else that colored TVs.

living rough, you know what I mean? Yeah. Watch a fight film. Maybe the film be 20 minutes, but him make me watch it for three and four hours. And me his shadow box and copying the fight film, and porn or swel of me. And it was sitting like this behind you. No, dude, that way. When you got the fight move, all done. Oh, come here, we champ. Boy, what are we champ? Say your towel. Write me off. Now go to your bed. Five in order. Come on, hop, up. run and follow the car behind you and beep the horn on your ass

if you wasn't going fast enough and they'd run two and three, four mile runs that we board. He's following you with a car and honking at you and you're just running? You better, I'd be over to it. I had to run.

I mean, he was terrified. You know, he was tough. But you get to understand, he was a killer street fighter I mean, he was rough and tumble. See, Jordan, I was fair and square. I don't, I done rough and tumble to my more share.

That means anything goes. In a real street fight, I'm going to talk about MMA's rules and a street fight, I bite your nose or your ear right off your head because you're going to do it to me. There's no rules. Them fights are evil. Oh, my God. I did more of them. I share them.

I don't like them. I do it fair and square. But my father, that was his life, them fights. And he mastered them moves and moves and how to do things. Like, even though these guys don't do none of the stuff that my dad could do. There's no moves that. And he was tough that way. your upbringing most people can't relate right your dad would wrap the baseball bat with duct tape and

what was it like a t-shirt or something and whack you in the belly with it and make you run in front of the car it's just like this is such a uh i'll say unique way to show love for your son i suppose but it makes sense in context of him being also raised like that and just when you look at your community the best fighters the guy with the most respect in a lot of ways and so you're the king of the hill and he wanted that for you because that was what was important. That's what I'm hearing anyway. Is that accurate? Here you asked me to train about this.

You know, we were painting roofs, metal roofs, in summertime, spraying roofs, and the buckets weighs 60 pounds, 5-eound buckets. And he made me pick a bucket up with my teeth or a rag, doing like that, 60 pounds like that, and then take a bucket on my shoulder, I show you today. Gosh. And do duck walks, stuff that ain't normal.

But here's why it wasn't normal, because it goes against all normal things that someone we could do. balance your muscles that never been used like that before. And truthfully, he's a guru, okay? He's hard trade. You wouldn't sell this day and age. The Marines wouldn't take him on, okay? But to do that business, he molded me.

I was bred and born to be this person that he made. Man, well, let me back up the truck a little bit. Because I'm not even sure where to begin with the underground fight scene, because it is absolutely nuts. So this is bare knuckle boxing, and that is different from other kinds of underground street fights, which obviously I had no idea before reading the book and talking to you. Can you explain a little bit the difference between regular boxing,

bare-knuckle boxing, and you said... Rough and thumble? Yeah, rough and tumble where you can just rip someone's nose off? Rough and tumble fight, that's just a street fight. I mean, I had over 100 of those. They're not good, but I mean, anything goes. There's no rulebook. There's no rulebook in a street fight.

You know, that's bad business. But if you're on a square means Jordan, let's say it means you're going to fight Jordan. Now, how much money you put up Jordan to fight this fight? Do you want to show them to you're putting $5,000? Okay, I got a match to $5 grand. Winner take all, Jordan. You can't go home the loss there.

You've got to win that money or you lose everything. Right. Now, in pro boxing, there's a price already guaranteed for the fighter, or win or lose or draw, and it's the managers, but these underground fights, that's how they run, but I'm going to blow your mind in it right now. The underground fights were better, fair play, what I mean by fair or fair, right down the middle,

than the professional boxing was. Pro boxing, the gaming game, I was a world champion there. That's a racket, man. The game ain't the fight game it used to be. More corruption and fixed deals than the judges, the doctors and referees. I never seen that in bare-knuckle boxing.

Believe it or not, that underground horror seen, at them fights, Jordan. I seen judges, attorneys, and police officers in with gang members. At one night, everybody's in one harmony, bet not a fight. Honest to God, You can't believe this, and everybody leaves.

But these fights happen, Jordan, and they happen all the time, all through North America, all three here. And I remember one time I was talking about it. I was fighting in a building right next to a grocery store. I mean, there's a bloodbath. There's newspapers on the floor of drying the blood up. Can you imagine somebody walking the next aisle, maybe our old grandmother or a granddaughter? Oh, my God. Belivian to this world of wall.

That's how close it is. We did one fight, Jordan. There was a fight, an American fight, across. was a police station. They were oblivious what was going on in Red Cross State. I mean, maybe they knew and they just didn't care because the chief was over there with the district attorney with a bunch of guys they arrested the

week prior who are out on bail. It's insane. I mean, it happens that the underground circuit was here before I was here. I mean, you go back to the movies like Charles Bronson, hard times. You've seen that movie Charles Bronson hard times? He's a very knuckle fight in the 30s. Yeah, like

when I was nine or something probably on TV. Fight and all. They were doing it. is this has been going on for years. Even though now the sport is sanctioned, there's the professional vertical boxing, but there's still underground world, and it's still thriving. It'll be here when I'm dead and you are.

The book just has tons of stories about you go into a trailer park, and then there's a fight in there. There's like a parking lot where they set this up, and really it's like straight out of a movie, and it's like a dumb thing for me to say right now, but it seems so dangerous that I just can't imagine. Because you also mentioned,

in some of the bare-knuckle matches, if somebody just gets really pissed off or they're losing, they just start breaking the rules. And it's like, well, okay, I mean, now it's a rough and tumble fight. All right, my bet's already out. It's like, you don't have any guarantee that somebody's going to not try to kill you. So, I'm sorry, my right throat. Anyway, I fight in this guy, his Black Dutty was up for the Jamaica Bloods, gangs of New York. I got a drop, I beat him up.

A big guy, he had a long redlock. And he bit me in the shoulder. He already lost the fight legally. I had him knocked out quite. Bang, I hit him right hand. He was out cold. That was it. He went up, get him up, get up.

They wanted to go again. I didn't know what this meant, though. See, go again, that now went from fair and square to rough and tumble. You understand how he turned on me? He said, he wanted to come in. Yeah. I was doing a fair and square room. He comes in, he bites me right there.

So I bid him back. I should have done it. I had to bite him back. So it ended up pretty quick. But anyways, fair play to them, though. My guys are all there, all the guys in New York. I thought a big riot was going to happen. But it slowed down.

I said, come on, pal, shake hands. I shook his hand. And that was it. But I had, yes, I've had guns put on my head. And that's the God, that was the one I really thought I was dead. Jeez. I have heard that bare knuckle strikes penetrate deeper. So you have to hit less hard because you don't want to break your hand, first of all. So it's almost like, with regular boxing, you just basically like torture somebody because you're beating them with this pad at 80% and you hit them 100 times. You're very intelligent. That's why I've been telling me for you, honest to God, you take my hand in pro boxing. You wrap it now with gauze and tape.

It's like a cast. You put that little 10-out glove on like this, and he puts that glove. And they call cutting the glove. They don't tell you this. It's not illegally. They pull back the glove like this. They squeeze it.

They take the laces. They make that leather tighter. Now, it's hard as you can. That's more damage to the head and the brain. Now take that glove all the way. It's a naked hand. I'm not going to hit his heart. I got to pick my shots.

40% power. Maybe 50. I don't very rare hit somebody hard. Our laces is his stomach. I knock mini-mail a body. shot out. I mean, I drop them, but I don't want to hurt my hands if I don't have to. But boxing, I think, is way more dangerous than bare duckle fighting. And here's a fact for you, my brother. And barreducal boxing, I think there's only been two fighters

but actually killed that they can count for it in life. Even an underground scene, what box was it, 25, 30 fighters a year die? And MMA fighters think of that's a lot of numbers. From brain damage and stuff like that. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, over time, if you get hit a few, well, it's never good to get knocked out by getting punched in the face or whatever. That's never good. But I mean, we all saw what happened to Muhammad Ali, right? I mean, that was, we don't need more of that. That was brutal. See, I was raised the old school, too, how to try to roll the punches. The art of fighting, and I had the best trainers, my dad, but I trained with the greatest trainers ever lived. And I took everything

that has to have a slip and roll a punch. And that's what saved me in the game, but being able to do that. That makes sense, right? So even if you're like, oh, I'm not going to be able to stop this hit, at least I'm not going to let it connect really well. Believe me, I mean, I've been hit some good shots. I don't know. But I mean, 90% of fights, I'm protected. I don't, I'll have to roll. See, your body is a, it just is.

Your whole body, your shoulder, the hand. And bare-knuckle boxing, I can do this. I catch. See, he's a punch me, right? I'll catch here, Jordan, I'll catch here. So I, bop, bop, bop. And boxing, I can't do it because my hand is kind of tied up of the glove in the hand wraps. I can't really protect myself.

like I can in bare knuckle boxing. It's a different world. It's a different world. I've seen bummed bear knuckle fighters, Jordan, knock out world contenders and boxing champions at an underground street flight. I believe that because they're used to being able to take a few punches or get lined up,

but if you just take one bare knuckle punch, I saw a video of you that you texted me where that really big dude, you kind of just like tapped him in the eye. It didn't even look like it was that hard. You told me later it wasn't that hard because you didn't want to blind the dude. And he went down,

he was like squealing like a pig. And I was like, oh, man, that definitely heard a lot. And that was the end of the fight. He's his eye socket right there, Jordan. You take your seat my hand in here, right? Most boxers, they punch like that. Bare knuckle, I'll take these two knuckles right here. The bottom two knuckles.

I'll sit back and I'll just turn it. Boom. Boom. And that roller show, right in the eye, his eye socket broke right there. Scruciating pain. That's what happened in the port, family. It went down. And I feel bad for him.

But, you know, I did what I did. I mean, that's the sport. I had to do it, and I had to win because I had to try to help my family the best I can. Yeah, of course. I think it was probably one of the most humane things that I'd seen. It certainly looked like after that he was done. You didn't kick him in the head or anything like that. I mean, that was the end of the fight.

And he went home and he patched himself up, but yeah, he probably doesn't have brain damage. He wasn't knocked out. He was just hurt. I'd rather break my eye socket than get smashed in the head 48 times during a fight that I maybe won. You know, unfortunately, a lot of these fighters, If I see their hurt and bear it, I go, I could do a lot more damage, a lot more, but I don't. It's a body. I like to do the, I don't want to hurt no one, if I don't have to.

But there were some fights I was in, and I fought people that there were bad, evil bastards. They try to do me in. I mean, a sinister agenda they had for the beginning. Some people are rotten. I never had that. See, George, a proper fighting man, right? A proper fight man is a good man. It's a heart.

A proper fight man ain't a bully. I'm a bully slayer. I don't like bullies. If I have it all in my pocket, I'll give it to you. I take my shirt of back, put it on your goal. That's how I am man, because God gives to those who give. But a bully, if you look at their life, they're constantly targeting someone, putting someone down because they're not, they're jealous of someone.

And they pretend to be a bully and a good person. And I've dealt with a lot of my life. Sometimes I fought some bullies, and they're the ones that, you know, they really deserve a good beating. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Bobby Gunn. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks for the show, all these authors, thinkers, creators, bare-knuckle boxers every single week, it's because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at six-minute networking.com. This course is about improving your relationship-building skills. It is not cheesy or awkward. It is not cringy. It is down to earth. Just practical exercises that are going to make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend and a better peer. Six minutes a day is all it takes,

and many of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course. So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at six minute networking.com. Now, back to Bobby Gunn. It must be, I don't know if this is the right way to phrase it. It probably feels pretty good to hit a real bastard in the face

as opposed to a guy who's just trying to feed his family. Like, it's a totally different feeling. I love you. Yeah. It feels good. Listen to me. Here's the deal. Some of them are bad, and I told a story to say me before.

One time I fought this guy, some of these guys that fight down the ground, they're good people, Jordan. They're fighting for their families. Yeah. You know, and I fought this guy one time, and he came up to fight. He was like a big old room like this, and they're boxing and fighting. He put five grand to fight. I put five or ten grand. It would win or take all.

And he's given me a good old go. He's fighting me. He runs over the window. He comes back to me, he's fighting me. And he does it three or four times. And I'm thinking, I said, I hope this badge will kind of like I gang downstairs, going to come in, raid us here, try to rob us. Anyways, though, Jordan, he looks at the window again.

He comes me, I hit him right, and boom. He knocked out. He gets up, and he was crying, Jordan, but I don't mean crying like whimper on him. Tears running his eyes like that. And I walked out. He had three babies in a car. He didn't have the money. I get nobody to watch.

He brought the money to fight me. He really thought he was going to win. And I'm just game. Listen, game enough now. He comes like a proper man in the fight. He thought he's going to win. So I gave him back his money. Oh, wow. I was heartbroken. I feel bad for him. What I'm trying to say to is that these guys are in the fight game.

They're fighting for the better life their kids. And there's a lot of heartbreaks in America and everywhere the world. There's things going on behind people's their oblivion. Like this office is a little bit of a guy. There might be a bare-knuckle fight next door. We don't even know about it. Yeah. But it's there.

And everybody in there are trying to do. a benefit for something. It's all about money. That's all it's about. They make a better life for everybody. It's a bit of a sad state of affairs where somebody who has kids and can't afford to have somebody watch them has to borrow money to go fight and put their body up against, you know, somebody like you, because if they don't, they're not going to be able to pay

for the food or their rent or whatever. Like that is, yeah, I wonder, how do you know if you're going into some basement in the Bronx? How do you know you're not walking into like a trap where they're going to rob, you or they're going to say you throw this next fight or we're going to shoot you right now. I don't know. I mean, you're dealing with underworld stuff, right?

Well, listen, okay, I go as to fight this guy, right? And I swear to God, Jordan, I thought he had a sweater on. He walks from him, is that hairy, that George Amos said, I thought he had a sweater, okay? Big bastard he was he was a god. He smelled too, though, God. Must have been the hair in the old I don't know where it was. Anyway, a lawnmower. They should have a lawnmower to clean him

that one before he fought me. But anyways, we're fighting, and he's doing a lot of things you shouldn't do because I think he's a soup bowl, some kind of word they use in Russia. Sambo, yeah, yeah. Anyway, he slammed me down the ground. I get somebody. I get somebody down the long-stitcher, back his eye come out of his head in here. When I was hanging just like that, the eye sock a bus.

He goes out on the scrutiny pain. The kid, his handler, long story short, gets to get in my head to my story. The kid flipping out on him. No, he's down for, brother, he's down. I just count him out. He fights over. Yeah. They wouldn't even count him out.

What? That finally is done, and the kid puts a gun into my head. Now, you know, walking at this place was in New York, like a mansion. They had pet leopards, Jordan. What? Pet leopards changed the wall. It was insane. There's so I see.

You can't understand this, pal. They were doing things they shouldn't be doing it. It was an insane brother. Clearly. No authorities around all. A millionaire people, too. Yeah. Mafia people.

I don't want to mention it. But anyways, a lot of story short, the old man in the background, I guess he was a hit. He would put that down. He said, pay that boy's money. Wow. Honest to God. And I'm walking to that room, Jordan. My good friend, Michael Miles, room.

He said, he said, an Irish. Our Jill's his car. Now, that means we're dead. An Irish cat. Our Jill's his carves. And I said, yeah. Walking out, Jordan. Any moment, I said, lights out.

Bang, I'm shot. I get to the old truck with the money, and I'm driving. That was pretty well at the end of it for me. I got out of that world. I was probably my last, an underground fight, was it? It was my last fight?

I asked, you know, I said, listen, I'm a champ. I've been a champion underground for 11 years. I beat everybody. Yeah. Everybody they've run in front of me. The Underground Association on Underground fights, the toughest guys he want to fight, Oriental, Puerto Ricans, African,

all I beat everybody they've run in front of me for 11 years. And I said, okay, get out on good means you can walk away, don't problem. I said, I'm telling my story. Yeah. I said, okay, God bless you. They're more than we can ever imagine. I shook hands.

I give them all hug. and one of the ways of that world because Jordan, I'm telling you my pal. I thought I was going to get killed that day. Yeah. I mean, once people have pets that usually run free in the jungle, you know you're with some cartel mafia guys for sure.

Like, normal people don't keep lions. You saw that Netflix. None of those people are saying, right? Right there should have been a red flag should have right there. Right. That isn't a bit bulldog. No, like, all right, fine. I might fight dudes in trailer parks and parking laws,

but you got a leopard chain to the, wall. I'm out of here. This is just crazy. No, some of the moves, man, especially in the street fight stuff, it's just crazy. I mean, you talk about ripping off ears. The book, Staten, does a very good job of going into detail about how you put your thumbs in someone's mouth to rip their

face open. I mean, it's gross, man. My dad taught me that. Yeah. I don't have fish hook. Yuck. I watched my old man do that to that man one time. That's got to keep you up at night. Oh, my God. The man's lips were to his ears. But, okay, so it goes without saying, though, man, this is not usually legal at all. Maybe there's some places where it is.

Maybe you go to Dubai and they're like, okay, it's fine. But I assume people pay, what, a cover to watch or do you have to gamble if you go in? Like, how does that work? Well, underground fights are, yeah, you're not supposed to have them. Right. But they pay usually about 100 bucks at the door, each person comes to the door. Okay. Now, I've had fights where there's 500 people in there.

Maybe more. That's the big gate. Yeah. And then plus the money, the fighter's putting on. And whoever's back in the fighter, what group of families back, they usually put the, how it works, Jordan? If I being back by a group of family, I put down 50 grand, and he puts 50 grand over.

The truth is it is, I probably get 20 out of that. Okay. You understand? And remember, they're still getting massive money. They're getting that full end, too. Remember, it's winner take all. Right. So you got to win.

You got a win to come home right. So a lot of the gangs and gambling is all obviously mafia affiliate. I mean, you're talking about Chinatown. Is this in the 90s? Tell me what it's like with the different mafias and different culture, right? Like you kind of mentioned the triads and the yacchars are just totally quiet, which is really creepy somehow during an underground fight, unless they're clapping. But you're Jordan.

Listen, though. Again, I had a couple of institutes. For all you three, a public situation took out of hand with crazy. But that really ain't a lot for considering how many fights I've had. The all them people that are stereotyped, the old bad kill you, they were more better, nicer to you to give you your money.

The professional boxing world, pal, is more corrupted. I believe that. Way more than the underground world. And that's a fact. So I was trying to say, all these bad guys, these show that these killers and mob, they're a good man. Probably do you do your favor.

We'll give you something you did. Who asks these guys in the boxer world wouldn't give you a quarter and you put your life on and fight for them. Overall, the underworld, Underworld was a better world than the legal world for boxing, I think, but you're pros and cons and everything. There's some crazy situation I was in, but in general, I'm saying to the situation I wasn't bad, the good situation is overshadowed that. I had so many times I was in places that

they could have killed me, Jordan. They could have. Yeah. And they took it on the chin, but they took it on the chin. One man by myself, many of the fights, I walked by myself, Jordan. No one by me. I walked it by myself. Three hundred men in that room. And then I did the fight. I walked in proud. I'll walk out proud. I'm a man. See, a lot of the women and my people, the gypsy travelers, they love up Dalton Dolls, they call them, and the old place. Like, my mother had a fortune, like $10,000 of little figurines, and they were worth a lot of money today. I wish I had to have a hundred grand, but I sold them years ago, but mom, she loved this, and mom was dying. She got sick in Canada. She fell, Jordan, a young woman, going to the bingo, and she came out of

the bingo, and she went to stop me some don't know and some coffee. He'd come home to that, and me, you know, we didn't know, we had those cell phones back to this. This is the late 80s, you know, and Emma, she fell in her black ice. When she fell, she hit her hand in the ground, she lay there. Oh, man. You ever see somebody in a movie, like, they'll stick their tongue on a piece of metal, and then the cold piece of metal, and then her wee face stuck to the ice? Oh, man. She broke her hip and everything, she couldn't get up, but we're roaring and screaming for to be an hour laying there. Finally, they come and they put hot water, got on her face with all, it was all like burnt, and they give my mother bad blood, Jordan. They didn't

screen it right. Oh, no. It went like a cancer. It went out of her body. She fought hard. But we're in America now. I'm getting her. It's the best bit of a girl. How about you get her in Pittsburgh? All of her stuff was in the Vann. I had a van. I went down to a box. I did the trail. I lost a short of the fight going on. I had a bare-knuckle fight. To help my mom, but I'm on, I was scared him up. It was just the book the van.

You tell me. Well, just to finish, just to finish the Pittsburgh story, Bobby's mother was in the hospital, Bobby needed more money to help pay for her surgery. He pretended to have the money. He was training in a boxing gym. The fighter saw his promise, asked him, hey, are you interested to make some cash in an underground fight tonight? He came back, pretended to have the money in a duffel bag. It wasn't, he didn't have it all. They brought in a big guy and Bobby beat him and took the cash and was able to help give it to his mom. That booker, Johnny Varelli, the answer to Segway, then started booking gun in more fights and said, hey, you're good at this. And it was an underground network.

Look, in all my years as a journalist, this is the most amazing story I've ever come across. Bobby's a true underdog tale, a real life Rocky. I think what's incredible, though, he's a guy who's fighting for his family. And when I met him initially in 2012, he was fighting to put his seven-year-old daughter through private school. I went with them. I saw him drop her off. And what really struck me, Jordan, was he said, you know, I'm not as scared about these fights. The one thing that scares me the most is when I drop off my daughter, Charlene, her friends and parents will find out what I do and judge her for it. Yeah. I thought that was really telling and powerful. But the underground circuit has been around, as I detail, for hundreds of years. It's pretty fascinating.

If you look into the history of the United States going back to the 18th century, Tom Molino, an enslaved person in Virginia, won so much money for his master implantation bouts that he won his freedom. And went to New York, worked as a dock worker, and then traveled across to England and won fame fighting overseas. You have stories of various underground fighters, most famously John L. Sullivan, who is the classic moustachio strong man. If you think about this, he was the LeBron of the 1800s. I mean, he was the son. It's always been a sport for people who are in the most dire circumstances to raise themselves up. He was the son of an Irish immigrant plumber, was walking by a storefront in Boston, saw an ad for anyone to come in and take this guy down.

He took him down, then became extremely famous across the world, met Teddy Roosevelt later in life, traveled in the Wild West Circuit under Wild Bill Hillcock. His breakfast was oysters and whiskey. Very Irish. And, you know, it had like these really famous fights that were covered by national news in the 1800s with the rise of religion and social moors and especially the gambling. The gambling's always been central to bare-knuckle boxing. I see. It really was deemed unsavory. This is not correct with our Victorian values.

And that's when you saw with John L. Sullivan, he famously beat Jake Kilrain, whose descendant later actually was a Navy. seal and ran NATO and would cite his heritage and bare-knuckle boxing is a testament to his toughness. Sullivan beat Kelrain in a fight in the late 1800s was covered around the world, but got such backlash. Authorities tried to chase him and arrest him. Boxing then came up in its place, you know, again, it's more savory to watch, but it's 10 times the amount of damage to the brain. A good analogy is rugby versus NFL. We can all watch NFL. We can all watch NFL. with our kids on Sunday afternoon. You don't see blood much.

It's pretty sanitary. But those guys can hit each other with extreme amounts of velocity impact and obviously do serious concussion damage. Rugby by comparison, just like bare knuckle, barely any pads. It's bloody.

Skin on skin is bloody. But those guys studies show don't suffer the same amount of CTE damage. And early studies so far in bare knuckle boxing, especially with the legal rise of it, do show, look, none of this is, safe, obviously, right? This is violent. But it does show so far less concussive damage. And I think what's interesting about the underground, though, and what was fascinating, Bobby was saying, he was coming

up in this in the 80s, 90s, early aughts, no cell phones. When I first met him, I went to Ike and Randy's gym in Patterson, New Jersey, walked through a chain. This is not bally's, you know, this is not equinox. Yeah, I was going to say, that sounds like a place where you better know somebody. Like, I mean, I was walking through a chain link fence past a couple of of pit bulls down and through metal doors. This low slung, cramped space used to be an auto body shop. And there was an old landline phone in Ike and Randy's gym and Patterson about the size of a toaster. And that's where Bobby would get called. So Bobby would come into the gym and, you know, it would be like, yo, Bob, someone left you a message. It would be tacked on a

wall, gun, it'd be a phone number. And that's where the Russian mob would call them, the Latin kings, the Jamaicans, the Irish. Everybody knew sooner or later Bobby Guns, going to show up at this gym. And that's what I call it. You told me you one time met the Russian mobsters that came to Starbucks nearby to work out a deal to fight in their mansion fight. Oh, God, yeah. It's insane. That little phone was the main thing. Remember the movie Rocky? How do I call? You'll call me. I was weird. That's weird. That's where all big fights come from. Word of mouth, secret society. Nobody rass one other route. They all want to see it. No, that makes sense. That's why they're telling the wrong people about it because they're telling the good

people, they all want to come and see, but let me ask the question. It's like the forbidden fruit. Everybody's attracted as the bare fist fighting. Mostly, they want to watch that one with the glove. It shouldn't be done. It's forbidden and attracts them. And that's the good sell point to it. Now it's sanctioned that, but to me, it was just the truest form of combat. My first fight, I was working as a writer at GQ and met Bobby Gunn, and he was across the river in New Jersey, and I said, I want to go to a fight. I get a text just was an address. I left my office in Manhattan, you know, right there in Times Square, went to the address, was then texted again to another address.

None of these locales are given in the book. That was a deal. But I show up to basically a parking lot. It's lightly raining. Bobby Gunn walks out in a black sleeve t-shirt with a baseball bat. All righty. Slung across his shoulder. And then David Feldman, who is now the founder of a bare-knuckle fighting championship and was

a longtime partner and promoter with Bobby in Underground fights, basically came up and said, if I ever put his name in anything connected with this, I'd never write again. Because it was illegal. Sure. I saw a Hell's Angel and a Marine fight in a backroom of an abandoned gym. Okay.

And it was the sound. It was the sound of skin on skin. It's just this wet slap. It's visceral. And the person next to me turned to me and said, you know, this shit's cool because it's illegal. It was the whole aura and essence, and going to these fights.

The fights weren't typically long. It was wild, and that was my introduction to the underworld. You have to see it, Jordan, in person, to really appreciate it. Well, the film is good, but that person is that atmosphere, that sound. I would love to see something like this in person. I'm going to text Staten after this and be like, all right, next time I'm going to go to New York. I'm going to China Town with a pack of cigarettes and some aviator shades and watch one of these matches. The visceral thing I totally get, right?

Like, you ever see one of those videos on? where somebody falls and their head hits the pavement and you just know that's a head hitting pavement. I also understand the appeal of looking at something and seeing that it's illegal. I will say I went to a cock fight in the Philippines and it was really gross because they died. I didn't know they died. Yeah. I thought it was just like, I don't know what I thought. That was a little gross because it was animal abuse. I wasn't really down for that. But there is a thrill of being doing something like, that's just kind of like, hey, this is illegal, but everybody here is doing it for a reason. Nobody's being forced into

it, I guess. Although it's arguable, right, if the guy who's got three kids in the backseat of his car is really doing this instead of doing construction willingly. I don't know. Yeah. You know what is it too, Jordan? Sometimes somebody just can't get a break. Somebody just can't get a job. Right. They have it with the hard times. And what happens is that we'll get a job next week, but next week ain't paying her for today is food for the kids. I read in the book that your mom is also no stranger to beating some ass as well. There's an anecdote where she filled socks with pennies and then went and beat some woman. And she was beautiful, too. She looked at a movie star. They called the Irish princess. You would never know. I mean, honestly God,

the picture of my mother, like, wow, I never got the look. I mean, but mom was beautiful. She was a proper woman, a pure traveler woman. It's such a heartwarming story, and which is a weird word to use for somebody who grows up in bare-knuckle underground fights knocking people's eyes out, but it's a, Staten did a really, really good job of telling your life story, I mean, in my humble opinion. Jordan, not only that, he put his life in a line. Well, yeah, hanging out with you with the leopards chained to the wall. One time where you were interviewed me, they wanted the robbers cameras, the guys around

me. You can't do that. I said, no, that's my wee palis. You can't do that. Well, he'll get the street. The man will take, they're not taking nothing. Brother, game enough now. There's a man right here.

Honestly, he did a hell of a thing. He put himself in line, Jordan. And he did it because you know that there's a good people to understand the truth of what is going on in the world. But they do what you get on, brother. It's quite a journey, was it? Yeah. Well, I mean, I was definitely nervous at times.

I bet. It was fascinating. And honestly, seeing Bobby, you know, the other side of the traveler world, as he mentioned earlier, is their devotion to religion. So Bobby, you know, no drinking, no smoking, no tattoos would lie prostrate on the ground in prayer before fights. a father putting his daughter through private school with the money. He's just a good guy. And, you know, that was really fascinating to me, Jordan, is, you know, the deeper I went with Bobby

into this world who would go into these dangerous places, who would endure these savage fights. But at the end of the day, he was a person with a good heart, you know, a father and doing it for the right intentions. And a really gentle guy. I mean, he's got his little dog Max, you know, here today that he carries around them. Bobby has a big heart. And for somebody to see someone go through the kind of tribulations he has in his life and to still have that humanity at his core was really compelling. Can I ask how your relationship was with your dad?

Because it sounds like a tough upbringing, but it also sounds like he was trying to do right by you or for you in some ways. It's hard to tell. He tried. My old man was a good man. My old man could have been a millionaire if he'd done things differently in life. but his life was a hard upbringing. He's quite a man.

I remember one time we're doing a job at work and being a big old farm, paying a farm, and I guess the young farmer, somebody else had a bad job, and we got the blame for, right? So he pulled over like this, and then forget it.

The old man was driving, he had a cigar in his bell, Jordan, and he had a staler hat. You look weird, like a white stailor's hat. Some of you see in a Walmart, he's driving, and they're forgetting, pull out his big guy,

a big, I mean, we're like, you know, crazy farmers, like big mussels, throw bills a hay up, there's big guys. Yeah, like, Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Yeah.

Mr. Minters. The Bushwhackers. Lower now. Just one minute, son. He gets out. He points his finger on my father. He throws a punch my father. He misses it.

Now, he's got a cigar in his mouth of Jordan. Okay. He jumps up in the air, something you've done heard of. In the air, kicks him a chance, boom, knocks him back, rolls back with a cigar with

his tub on the mountain. Boom, boom, boom. This one has knocked the cold on a bump like this. I can't believe he walks back the truck. The cigar never left his mouth. He still spoke. He goes, Your old man still got it, don't he kid.

That's my dad. That's why he was a stupid girl to me, different ways. I mean, that's my old man. Bobby, tell him, but your dad is not done fighting. He's still fighting. He's almost 70. Bobby will have to go up to... 82 years old.

He was... 82, I'm sorry. And you will... But the phone, you'll have to ring it once, hang up. Can you explain that situation? One ring, hang up. Wait, five seconds, coming back, then he might answer. Because people are looking for him, so he knows that... I was like, why is this all happening?

That don't make sense. Jordan, I'm sitting. I'm sitting. Word of God, years ago, I was sitting at his Thanksgiving, right? Phone call. Your dad's acted awful, silly. He attacked the man here last day. He went, who he attacked?

This should be a reverse rule. He should be being being in trouble. I said, okay, what he attacked? The guy in the bar, he bit the man's neck like a vampire and hit the man right hand. I said, Dad, what? Why would just support what you think? The next morning, he said, an angel. I was just having a drink watching a hockey game.

The man attacked me, son. The truth was, okay, he attacked the man, like a savage animal. the man was being smart with him, but what I'm saying to you, you even throw down? I watched my grandfather, my grandpa Jim. He was 84 years old. In front of the old hotel, the Ashbury Hotel, the dirty old hotel, Niagara Falls, a lot of the travelers will go there and stay there. Rough old hotel.

I mean, Pem's prostitution, drug, drugged, right oblivious to that world. We just didn't bother it, but we knew it was there. Our trailer was parked right there. And one night, the old man went, because what do you do, Grappie? There's somebody out there trying to get in my trailer. I stow. He runs out with the old man.

and there's a young guy, and he hits him all right, and bang, bang, let them knock them, cold. The old man could fight. Put him out cold, the police come down. He did the citizen arrest, the older guy, because the old man had a bit of money in the trailer. He scared the only stealing, but he'd say, but he'd throw it out in a heartbeat.

Fighting to us, it's bred into us. In traveler culture, Jordan, it was interesting. Your ability to fight and defend your family name, it's a sense of honor. In a culture where there's not always a lot of material, home, wealth, that kind of thing because it's an itinerer lifestyle. Your ability to fight is representative of your family, of your clan, of your lineage.

I thought it was interesting, Bobby told me a story. It's in the book about how you beat up a person in a fight who, I think your father or your grandfather. Your grandfather. You want to tell that story? It was my dad. And you were a kid. Tampa, Florida, right? My grandfather before that beat a man called John R. Robinson.

He come to my grandfather's daughter. Grandpa was 59 and 6 years old. And John R. was about 23 years old. the big up-and-combe, want to be a fighter. So two guys run to fight my grandpa. But actually, the guys that come with him, they should have done that. They come looking for the old man.

The old man had a name. You understand that. That was wrong. You don't challenge a man that old fight. So he comes in order to step out, Jim, I want to fight you right now. My uncle told me the story. He was right there.

He says, okay, he says, let me finish my cover tea. Not a bit worried at all. This aggravated, I'll finish my tea. No, no, no, close that door. He says to date. He told my granny, get me and my trodds out. That means your shoes, trots. She julls out these old boxes shoes.

He puts him on. He walks those side, and I mean, he blistered this one. He put him like, he looked, Grandpa Jim punched a piss right out of right. Put him, put him in bits. Now, stop there. That happened. Grandpa beat him, an old man.

That man, Grandpa beat, was a lot younger than Grandpa. Now, my dad in 1984 were in Florida. Billy Robbins, he called him. Billy Robinson was this man's son. By Grandpa beat. You know, Grandpa beat the man John R. Robinson. He had a boy called Billy. He groomed them and made him.

Dad was sitting around, this one comes to the trailer camp, a few drinks, and looking at a little bit of trouble, but my father slaughtered him. I mean, Dad just butched him bad. I mean, put a bad beating on him. But he'd become looking for it. It was pretty degrading beating dad, you know, okay? And went back to his trailer in front of the man's wife, too.

This is degraded in front of the family. Anyway, so at 4 o'clock woman he calls up Grandpa in Canada. Oh, yeah, who did you stiffen? Abbey's doctor, but I says, well, he said, Dad beat Rob is right, right. Put her on a wonderful, but here's your granny, son. Did you get him good? Oh, good. she says good.

It's insane. That was it, but that's the God's truth. That's the God's truth. I said things happen like God, man. And, you know, your son told me, he watches the movie 300 a lot. And he said, I really identified with the Spartans. He's like, that's just our culture. We are just, a lot of people wouldn't understand it, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

And that's true. And there's a story in the book. There's a lot of crazy fight stories, but maybe one of the most crushing stories in the book is when Bobby, I think a man was in. insulting you, another traveler. And so you went into his home at his dinner table in front of his family and called him outside, and the man wouldn't get up to stand and fight him. And that was the ultimate sense of shame that was bestowed upon him in that culture

because he wouldn't get up to fight. And it was the worst insult you could have done as opposed to knocking him out. The reason why I've done that, because I don't think why. Because I knew what he was. See, sometimes you have guys that want to announce a fight for a police officer security or, you know, shop them all. But a man wants a fight. Hey, my pal, let's walk out with that fellow

that'll have a little talk to me and you, okay? That's a fight. If I were down to him from a movie theater, hey, I'll kill you a stone dead. I don't really have any one to touch his fight. I'm a raver. A lot of rangers are world. So what I done, I waited until he got a,

he had a little raving contest to me. I see you later on, my boy. I see you later. And went right to the trail in front of his kids. I walked in, I just left him old ways that you have no intention. You're a cowardly bastard. I told the truth. And he cried and I walked out.

He had to live with that the rest of his life. I cut my head off and die before I take a back step. An old man born of a mother. I would take a back step. I walk out of the door to 10 Mike Dyson, not one, because that's where I am. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Bobby Gunn. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do,

which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. And if you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you can't find the code. Shoot me an email, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. I am more than happy to surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Bobby Gunn.

You mentioned your dad is in his 80s. I read that fewer than 3% of travelers live even to age 65. And that's a shocking statistic. Funny you said that we were talking about today. A lot of the young traveler men that I see today, 25, 30-year-old. I can't believe the shape of them. They don't take care of their bodies. They're doing things you shouldn't be doing them, I think.

You know, be honest with you. The old man was always calisatistics training. He done things you should have to drink. The old man's not normal with Jordan. I used to the old man. They'd drink 54 bottles of beer one night. He's not a normal man. He's not a normal man.

But my grandfather before him was 90-something years old before he passed. By granted, it was 95. Okay. It was hard people. But the young generation today, they're not like the hardest. We're harder. and coughing else are people. They're getting soft like telotubbies, you know?

They're telling they're not the same way. I don't know what it is, and I don't want to speculate, but I assume there's some lifestyle changes that maybe have happened. But also your lifestyle, I mean, look, there was, what was this in the book? Staten it was like summer teeth, and it's like, what do you mean by summer teeth? It had something to do with pliers, summer in, some or not. That was, one, gross, and I'm no doctor, but that type of health care might have something to do with the lifespan of 65.

I has a flight to a street one time, right? I fight a flight to a guy. I hit them, boom. And knocks him, go, my hand's swollen, killing me. I goes home, and I tell his dad, I had a fight. And I said, come here, what's wrong with your hand, boy? He says, dog, it's all hurting. Come here, he says, boy, come here, and it's sink.

I push my hand in hot water, and I was squeezing like to squeeze it, and a tooth pop out of my hand. A tooth? There's a tooth. There's a tooth right in there. Obviously not yours. Yeah, tooth. See, a human bites worse worse than a dog's bite. I've seen it all mad at life.

Listen, listen, I've seen times where we were poor, so poor. But I put water, even cereal. It had money for milk. And I seen people drive by, and they tell you about their money. It'd be little of you. See, at the time, I was half-Irish and half scotch. You understand? I wasn't really half-breed or something.

I said it like that to you. And when I got older, I mean, I had a lot of good cousins that always do with my family, but a lot of ones shunned me. And they let you know. They tell you real quick. They tell you all your faults. And that was my drive in life. They climbed the mountain to get out of that, that mountain.

and says pull it. And I don't want revenge. I don't want, but I just want to know that I would never be like that. So I got a good heart in my pal. I won't assault somebody. I'll do you a favor every every can. Honest to God, if you're inside the road, I'll have a hundred bucks by pocket. He had a wee kids, I would give you the 100. I'll go get another 100. Because I know God will give me back 10 of hundreds if I do that. And I know I've seen that. I promised the Lord has repaid me so many times for good things I've done. But you see a lot of people in the world today, Jordan, wouldn't give you a glass of you're dying of thirst. How about the church,

holy roars, go in the church. If you broke down the southern world, they'd turn their head and pretend they didn't see you. You have to put their hands up and tell you they love the Lord. See, actions speak louder than words.

You do something to do it. It's like this here, George. How many times you see in a bar someone rave up and down? I'm a killer. Yeah. His bar is a lot more worse as his bite.

The little guy in a corner, don't say nothing. Start with him and you'll have one of your hands. That's the one. You see you, I learn things in life. The guy raves up and down and blowing the big old horn. Brother, he's the biggest puffin house.

Jordan, just to speak to summer teeth. Yeah. It's interesting. The home remedies that Bobby was raised to be treated for his cuts is kind of like a Mad Max culture. It's an itinerant culture. A lot of it was based around automotive techniques. I think caracine was rubbed on your cuts.

Oh, my God. Yeah, tell me about that. You said for sore tooth, a dab a starter for it. Starting fluid on a swab for a bad affected tooth. I mean, I guess technically that might be effective for the wrong reasons. Brother, I see my own man do self-operations. You can't believe in it. And put WD-40 on it. That helps a big no sense.

Okay, Dad. I mean, some things, brother, I embrace the culture, but I won't do some things they do. I'm more civilized that, but it's insane. That's, uh, I mean, I read the kerosene thing, like, oh, I put kerosene on your cuts and help him heal. And I'm like, I'm going to Google this, but I think I already know the answer as to whether or not that's effective. Something's going out of brain here.

Like, maybe it kills the germs, but it also puts gas, or petroleum into your bloodstream. Brother, brother, it's insane. Just the work we used to do, like we were spraying that little ashwhip, with no mask on, fumes for life. Big old barns. I was up, I was a wee boy. You know a 40-foot ladder, right?

Yeah. And honest to God, brother, it made you better. I'm not complaining about it. It wasn't normal, but that was our life. Yeah. Our life was normal to us because it was our life. This is probably an obvious question, but so if you have an itinerant lifestyle, right? You're traveling all over the place and you're working at age eight or whatever it was.

Are you not in school at all? No, I wasn't in school. Well, you know, you know, I was a wee boy. It was actually great too, wasn't it? I thought it was third grade. It was a third or second or whatever was. In Canada, they were very different to teachers in America, right? Okay.

I was sitting down trying to figure. He accused me to cheat on somebody. He thought, I really hit my hand. Well, I hit him a punch. I couldn't take the pain. No one would hit me three rounds. So I hit him. He got upset about it.

So dad had come to school. This is no good for the boy. He can't do it. Wow. I didn't go to his school. But listen to me, yes, unfortunately, I had no education. But I could, what I lost up being smart in books, I know with the score. You know I can read a bit.

You know what I learned to read? How's that? Reading the Bible. in box and magazines. Ah. I can't hardly write, can I, George. I can't write a letter.

I can't spell you, but I can read anything. Is that weird? Really? So you can't write, but you can read? Yeah, I can read things. I can read things.

I have no schooling, brother. I can't spell. I can't write a letter. Yeah. It's the way it is. I have to, you know, I can't do it, but listen, I give by.

But it's part of that, Jordan, and Tyson Fury, has done the same. Traveler culture, kids are usually taken out of school around age 11, middle school, the onset of puberty.

They don't want them to assimilate with broader culture. I see. That's usually when they're taken out and taught their father's trade. Bobby got taken out earlier. It's part of that cloistered culture to pull kids from formal education. If you think about it, Roma culture is actually quite famous. Like everybody knows about, I mean, some of the sort of typecast stuff like the psychic with the crystal ball, but like everybody knows, oh, now of course I'm drawn a blank, but the dancing, the flamenco dancing, like that's also wrote. Elvis Presley was half traveler. You know that, right? I did not know that. That's incredible. That totally makes sense now that you say that. He was a twin. His mother was a Smith, an English traveler

Smith. I think Yule Brenner also. Charlie Chapman? Charlie Chaplin. I thought Charlie Chaplin was Jewish. Are there Jewish travelers? Tom Jones. It's an oral tradition, Jordan, that they carry, and a lot of time I will have been at traveler gatherings, and there will just be spontaneous songs breakout. I mean, it's not a culture as deeply about academics and books, so to speak, but it is a gathering of community and a sharing of oral tradition, a sharing of song. I mean, it's a huge wealth of talented people in the traveler culture. And as gun, you know, as pointing out, some of them have broken through to mainstream, even though audiences wouldn't have known it.

Has it got a truth. I mean, it's insane. With our people at any time, it could be weddings, parties, you have no idea what can break out. I mean, I fought Roy Jones, Jr. Remember coming back from the fight? Literally, just come back to fight, they stopped the fight. I cut my nose, which I walks back. everybody's group being nice to me.

Here's the hotel and here's the bar. Within seconds, I had a full fight with three or four people. My boy beat up one. We took the, we slaughtered him. And this happened around the fight? Then nothing was over, everywhere back in normal. That is so bizarre. I don't know where.

It's the same man. Yeah. To the Wild West. And Bobby's definitely one of the most famous travelers. Tyson Fury is a world heavyweight champion. He said Bobby Gunn is the king of bare-knuckle boxing. What's amazing about Bobby, you know, he came. up under Carl King, who was Don King's son, basically started at age 15 in Las Vegas, lying about

his age, fighting in pro boxing matches, was a sparring partner, never really got his due, left the pro boxing role at about age 20, 21 when his mother died. Ten years, he was in the underground and became a legendary, almost a myth, a fighter. But with the birth of his son, Bobby Jr., he wanted to show him he was more than that, came back to pro boxing. at age 30, I have joined him for a lot of these fights. He fought major people, Thomas Atomack, James Tony, Roy Jones Jr. What was fascinating is a lot of these guys were rolled heavyweight boxers, world famous. They knew about Bobby's underground prestige now. Roy Jones Jr. came up in Gulf Coast, Florida. His father had cockfighting birds. He grew up around blood sports. And, you know,

I interviewed him at a fight, and he found it fascinating Bobby's background. So Bobby is a truly amazing story and he did become an IBA, a world champion boxer cruiserweight in his own right, but it's this underground legend in bare knuckle that is funnily enough made him world famous. And now the sport that he helped bring back to the forefront of American culture is on the rise. It's the fastest rising combat sport in the world. Bare knuckle fighting championship has 48 events across the country and world this year. valuation, they put it around 400 million. That's up from $500,000 they made in 2018 when Bobby fought in their first match in Wyoming. So it really is just an amazing, amazing story.

And a lot of groups are coming up and tell you, like the B.I.B. That they're doing good. All these guys are trying to make vertical boxing become sanctioned. I fought the best fighters in the world in boxing, and I did it. But I'd like to say this year that I wasn't just fight if I had to fight the judge's referees. A lot of controversial, like, stoppage. Like, you know, You know, you're talking right now. You know I don't care about a cut. I had the top fights that I cut. But the guys I lost in the ring, I tell you what,

they wouldn't last to me five minutes in the street. And they know that, and I know that in my world. My world is a different world. And I was the king of my world for a long time. And I run it, and I'm proud. And I pray to God, all my things I went through. I try to pave the road for the now to be a sanction where I work so hard to make a sanction. We push so hard through commissions.

And that was, it is going real good. It's being wonderful. But I want everybody not to be out under the ground, like be above the ground, legalize and making money off it and doing good on it. And I hope that maybe I could pay the road for these guys to do it today the right way. I mean, it sounds like you most certainly have. I know we're running out of time. I have a couple just quick ones here.

So travelers are not supposed to socialize with people who are not travelers, right? Are you kind of an exception because you're a public figure? Be honestly, I always try to do my own thing. It might be out of the box, but I thank God, I got a good pal here. I bet this man coming. When I first met him, I thought he's a nice, good-looking little guy, and be a little nerd. I didn't know first his little shoes on.

That's a pretty accurate description, Bobby. What a man that come in here. I'll tell you what he's, listen. Fair play to him, though, Jordan, like yourself. I know you're a proper man. He's a proper man. He's been involved in a situation with me. My God, you're wee family.

I feel so bad if he did he come through it. But where I'm saying to you, yes, a lot of times you don't socialize other groups that, but I'm glad I did. I'm in a good pal here. Two totally different worlds, but thank God for a Jordan. And maybe my book could do anything. I would say to you this year. I don't care who you are, what race you are.

Whoever religion you serve, serve it your very best. And I promise if you want something, go for it. Because if you don't want your regret, rest your life, and go for it. Don't let nobody tell you can't do something. Because they can't do it. You block them out, like a horse raised a horse. He puts their bibles on his eyes for a reason. Because you don't see the horse to run and a horse to left. a prize, the finish line.

You might not get there fast, but you'll get there. I promise you to do it. Please go for it. Don't sit back and don't, I wish I would go that. Do it. Do it. You got one life. You got one name.

You got one story. We all got stories. Everybody's got a book, our own selves. Make your book a good book. Don't leave the pages blank. Fill in the gaps. Go for it in life. You can do it.

You can do it. I did it. My God, brother. You can do it. I really wish we did this one in person. One, I would take you guys out for, there's so many stories that we just don't even have time for, so I would love to.

I got to see you, Jordan. I want to come through and see you. I want to see you. Absolutely. Also, I'd have you teach me how to throw a legit punch because I only know like judo shot nonsense. And I'm like, yeah, I could learn from this guy. I could use at least one move, you know, just in case.

So I appreciate that. I wish you good health. All the best to you and your family, Bobby. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you for joining us as well. I know you booked a flight to get out there. and this has been a little bit of a technical cluster. And I just really appreciate you sharing all this today.

It's incredible. I love this episode. I think it's so interesting. Jordan, thank you. In closing, there's a Pullman at Edinburgh, Scotland, a wall. It says, and remember us everybody here this. It says, life's the time you only borrow. You're here today and gone tomorrow.

Like a wheat river, you're here for a wee moment. You're gone forever. Go for it. Time goes by too quick. Go for it. I've got some thoughts on this episode. But before I get into that, here's a trailer from my interview with Layla Ali, daughter of legendary boxer Muhammad Ali.

She's got a great story about how she ended up the only other boxer in her family and how she carries her father's legacy. You have to have it in you to want to be a fighter. It's not something that you just go, I think I'll just try boxing, you know, because you're going to get your ass beat. If you get that opportunity, it was a brawl. I mean, it was bloody. It was like crazy.

And I was like, I want to do that. You would think anyone punching you would hurt, right? Yeah, sure. But as fighters, it's like, oh, that person can punch, that person can't. Tap in you, tap, tap, tap. And then every once in a while that, bam, that hard way. And, oh, okay, I felt that. If you're listening to your camp saying, she's nothing and she this or she that.

And then you have to get your ass in there. And then you feel that punch. Like, no, she can punch. And no, she's not just a pretty bad. You see me across that ring looking at you. Like, yeah, remember all that stuff you talk? Now it's about to happen. It's just me and you.

Nobody else can get in there with you. And it's like, I'm going to remind you of all the things you said. They didn't know that street side of me. Not everyone has that. You don't have to. Sure. But I do. Now you get to meet someone.

You see how they walk. See how they hold this stuff. See if there's any fear in their eyes. What was your father's reaction to you wanting to box? He didn't like it. No? No. You guys were sparring before you even put the gloves on.

Oh, yeah. He supported me, though. He came to a lot of my fights. He couldn't beat all of them. I could always see that glare in his eyes of him being proud. And just to come into that arena and having everyone chanting, Ali, Ali. Did you just see him light up to see me in that ring

and him just remembering himself? Our boxing styles were similar, the way I'm shaped, my body shaped. So just seeing all of that had to be a super crazy experience for him. For more with Layla Ali, check out episode number 309 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Man, I have to say, it was pretty sad that when he fought, when Bobby was fighting, that was really the only time that he got affection from his father. I mean, I know they have their relationship now, but it's a little bit heartbreaking, somehow, just as a parent.

He also told me something really interesting. He said before fights, he would hear a sound, like a whirring sound. And it didn't really make sense the way that we explained it. So we ended up cutting it out because it didn't quite work out. But it was a quite interesting sort of vibration that he claimed to hear. He was really focused and really in the zone. And it appears to have resulted almost in an auditory hallucination. Really interesting.

I would love to have gotten more into that if we had time. I mentioned that he fought with all the different mobs. There's a couple of different notes here about the different kinds of mafiosi. So triads and yakuza. So the Asian gangs, Chinese and Japanese, they stayed completely silent during the fights. So you got these guys bashing each other's eyes out and stuff, and they were totally quiet. And if somebody went down or the fight was over, they would clap, just like golf. Others, of course, were more drunk and wild.

You got the Irish. You got the Russians who handle everything with violence. Like they're just, even Bobby was like, man, these guys just handle everything with violence. Biker gangs, he said we're quite professional. But we're obviously yelling and rowdy and drunk. And it's just, it's funny to see how the organized crime. crime groups of each culture had their own unique subculture that was different from one another. I just thought that was kind of an interesting note. As far as cheating in the fighting goes,

people try and headbutt, they try and duck their head down so you break your hand on their skull. I don't know if that's cheating, but that's sort of considered, you know, not cool. Other people forced others to throw fights, rig matches. A few times guys tried to bite him in the ring, as you heard. I mean, that is just a Mike Tyson-ish right there. Oh, and by the way, the term Gypsy, as I mentioned in the top of the show, that term is offensive. It actually came about because people thought that Roma, the people who are originally from India, were Egyptian. But in truth, they were fleeing Islamic armies who were invading and colonizing countries all over the world. At that time, you had Islamic, Arabic armies that were going into North Africa, that were going

all over Asia. They were colonizing at that point in time, and they were pushing people out. And so essentially the Roma and the travelers are permanently displaced people. And I'm not going to say any more about that because this is a political third rail topic right now, isn't it? And that's not what this episode is about. Although, kind of want to cover it. Fun side note, I grew up playing lacrosse with John Sullivan, I think the fourth, the great-great-grandson or the great-grandson of the John Sullivan mentioned in this episode. Bobby's a hard worker, man. He trained hard, he fought hard. Now he does construction to pay the bills. I think it's good. He probably knew when to quit a very dangerous sport. This is not a sport where you can make a great living and save money for later and

raise a family. Yes, you get paid, but you got to share it. And, you know, it's, I don't think it's a great way to make a living just based on what it is. And it's a lot of time away from home, a lot of time healing. Terrible anecdote earlier about Disneyland. What is with Irish Travelers in Disneyland, man? They love that place for some reason. I didn't realize they were getting kicked out because of, you know, who they are, but probably they've had trouble there for it. I mean, This episode sponsored by Disneyland. Come from Mickey Mouse. Stay to get your teeth knocked out

by a sock full of pennies by somebody's mom. I'm just surprised that they were getting removed from the park. I mean, it's the happiest place on earth unless you're getting your teeth knocked out by the aforementioned sock full of pennies. Again, fascinating story, really interesting upbringing. I know that Bobby wants something different

for his own children. I didn't mention this on the show because we ran out of time, but typically travelers pull their children out of school at age 12. I think Staten mentioned that. Bobby let his daughter stay in school and finish school and get married later because she loved school. And he just, we didn't really get into this, but, you know, it's his little girl.

He wants something a little bit better for her, and we didn't get into detail on that. But I thought that was kind of a fascinating little note. You can just tell this is a guy who lives for his family and props to him for that. Thanks to both Bobby and Staten for coming on the show today. All things Bobby Gunn and the book, of course, will be in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com. Transcripts will be in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

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