The Jordan Harbinger Show - 983: Bro's Obsessed with Goats: What's the Antidote? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Your brother's never-ending barrage of goat-related songs, text messages, and references has your family concerned. Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: An innocent bystander might find your brother's weird obsession with goats amusing, but his barrage of goat-related songs, text messages, and references has your family concerned. What can you do to herd him back to reality? Feeling unwelcome as the only woman at a family card game, you struggle with self-doubt and question your husband's support. How can you navigate family dynamics while staying true to yourself? Despite not being officially charged by the DA for public intoxication and alleged indecent exposure (the latter of which you deny), your six-year career as a firefighter is in jeopardy. What are your options? [Thanks to police agency supervisor T.D. De La Peña for helping us with this one!] As a small business co-owner, you face a dilemma: stay in a potentially profitable but stressful partnership or leave with decent earnings, which would have a negative impact on the company's stability and your (ex-)business partner. Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/983 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspiratuality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you do. get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer. The scoop of guacamole getting stuck to the lid of this burrito bowl of life conundra. Gabriel Mizrahi. And it always gets stuck to the lid, doesn't it?

It does. And then you've got to lick it off or scrape it off. Do you scrape it off or do you just lick it right off the lid? It depends who's watching, I would say. You know, if someone's staring at me, I just, I look, I'm dead in the eye and lick that room temperature, slightly brown guac right off the lid. I thought it would be the reverse. Like if someone's watching, yeah, I use my fork.

Not at this phase of my life, no. You know, one day, I hope I'm just so wealthy that I'm like, you know what? I'm leaving that quack right on the lid. I'm just not even going to look at it again. That is a level of wealth I can't even imagine aspiring to it. Yeah, it's just, you're just throwing money off the boat like Leonardo DiCaprio at that point. God, but the dating scene in L.A. sounds wild these days. Is that what dating is in L.A.?

You're just, someone's looking at it, and you're like, hold on, let me look that guac right off that lid. Look at how much, yeah, actually, the real flex would be what I just suggested, which is just put that lid down where they can see the guac stuck to it, and you just disregard. They're like, that guy is rich. It's a very niche way to flex on people. But, sure.

That guy is loaded. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from economic hitmen, gold smuggler, hostage negotiator, astronaut, tech luminary, and music mogul. This week we had bare-knuckle boxer Bobby Gunn, really fascinating story.

Irish traveler who became a bare-nuckle boxing champion, was fighting drunk guys in parking lots at age 11. I mean, I wasn't raised like that, so Wild Tales did ensue. and we also did an out-of-the-loop episode on Israel versus Iran. What is going on? What's the drone's going one way and the missiles going the other way? Is this going to continue? What the heck is going on over there? Out of the loop.

So catch that episode and Bobby Gunn, if you haven't done so yet. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and get the grossest details about the Santa Monica-Chapotle-centric dating scene. Before we jump into the letters today, I do want to share something. This is a little nugget from James Clear. He's the author of Atomic Habits, and he's a guest. on the show, episode 108. In James View, there are four qualities of a great career. One, I enjoy it. Two, I'm good at it. Three, I make good money. And four, I'm around fascinating people.

So his advice, and I'm paraphrasing here, is to ask yourself questions that get at those qualities. And the best way to do that is probably in reverse order. So one, where are fascinating people? two, in what ways can I make money with them, heavy to do with them, whatever? Three, which ones am I good at? And four, which ones do I actually enjoy? And so if I'm applying this just off the cuff here to my podcasting career, where are fascinating people?

Well, I'm reading books, and I'm finding these people who write these books are so interesting, but I have no access to them. Okay, well, how can I make money for them? That wasn't the first question that I asked myself, of course, but how can I make money with them? What if I could figure out a way to make authors more accessible? That was kind of one of my first thoughts.

Remember, I've been podcasting for 17 years. There weren't a bunch of people interviewing authors. This was, like, not really a thing. I just started it years and years ago. There were interviews with authors, but they were in like Marie Claire, right? You had to like wait for Red Book to come out and borrow it and see if they interviewed anyone interesting or Esquire. Which ones am I good at?

I was good. It turned out at talking to authors after prepping the book a little bit and getting good nuggets of information about that material. in a way that people could apply. That turned out to be something I was good at. In which ones do I enjoy? Yeah, that happened to be something that I really, really liked,

teaching people things that I found out from smart, fascinating people, some of which they had put in their books. And so this naturally lent itself to broadcasting. Now, I was interested in teaching, but I found that, of course, I could access more people using a microphone and the internet,

and, you know, here we are. So I highly recommend that y'all, if you're in a phase of looking at what you want to do with yourself in your life and your career, ask yourself these questions, where are fascinating people, in what ways can I make money with them, which ones am I good at, which ones do I enjoy? Ask yourself these questions and start noodling around on that, because that is, I will say, I'm very satisfied with what I do for a living, and I don't know if most people are, really. I think you stumble into a career or a job and you just kind of stay there a lot of folks because

of momentum and sunk cost, and that is not ideal. That's not ideal. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My older brother, who's 22 years old, is obsessed with goats. Okay. And when I say obsessed, that's an understatement. Four years ago, my family had two pet goats that we had to give away when we moved houses. They were named Billy Goat and Motor Goat. And the obsession began a bit after we moved. Motor goat. It's pretty good. So it is. Interesting.

This is obviously a feedback Friday first. I don't think we've ever heard of anybody. I've never heard of this before, somebody being obsessed with goats. We had one goat-related question a couple of years back from the young guy whose parents kept moving them around the country. And his mom, they had just moved into a new home. And then his mom started having a fit because she had to look out the, she was looking at the kitchen window and it looked onto the neighbor's goats.

And he was afraid that she was going to use that as a reason to move them again. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. But it seems like a real petty. I mean, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Odd. Yeah, so not our first goat-related drama,

but our first goat obsession story, for sure. So, she goes on. It started off with him just talking about them and saying their names randomly in conversation. But over the past year, the obsession has developed a dangerous amount. We can no longer have a conversation without him throwing in a billy goat or motor goat,

and it's really starting to cause some tension in our relationship. He also writes songs about them. The most recent being, all I want for Christmas is motor goat. Okay. Which he goes around singing under his breath sometimes. This is weird. I mean, it's kind of funny, but it's also just like, this is bizarre behavior. This is not mentally healthy.

And also kind of sad. I can't tell if he's in on the joke of it. Or is he just being quirky or is he legitimately mourning these goats he loved? Something's definitely going on here that's not super healthy. Yeah, carry on. And he sends constant text messages to, our family members saying the goat's names, along with pictures of the goats, and even voice memos going, bah.

Oh, my God. Okay. This family's group chat must be insane. Just imagining getting 19 while you're at the gym. Meanwhile, you're back channeling with your parents like, Luke needs therapy. Therapy or just maybe a new goat? Our goat therapy. It sounds like something you'd be into, Gabe.

Uh, nah. I don't think so. I'm good. Thank you anyway. I draw the line at goat yoga. I don't need to also do goat mental health treatment. So she goes on, all of this is starting to annoy me extremely.

So annoying. And my siblings and parents feel the same. We're worried about him. We've all talked to him about this and he just laughs it off, but it's starting to strain our relationships with him. I'm also worried about his relationships with other people, particularly girls.

Well, yeah. If this guy is going around your town in public, And playing, all I want for Christmas is motor goat at the local cafe. He's, he's the goat kid. And it's also, like, clearly, this is, like, he's mentally unwell. Something is going on. Yeah, I'm worried about the...

You get a rep because of this, right? Also, like, the dating thing is interesting. Every photo of him on Tinder is just him with various goats. All the photo captions are goat puns. I mean, that actually might just work on dating apps, because it's a thing that's not like, here's a gym selfie and another gym selfie in my car. Better than listing brunch is one of your simple pleasures, I guess. But you got to be in on the joke.

If you're unironically posting goat photos on Tinder and singing about goats on first dates under your breath, it's not cute. It's, I don't want to say like, plausible psychopath because that's sort of thrown around there. But let's just say it's bad news. Oh, man. I was wondering, who was going to make the next goat pun. Me. It was me. Okay.

Whatever floats your goat, all right? Ah, you had to jump in. So she wraps up. How is he going to find out? find a girlfriend who doesn't think he's crazy for being obsessed with goats. Yeah, not. And how can I help rid him of this obsession so I can get my normal brother back? Signed, had enough and wondering if I should get tough about this billy goat gruff.

This is such a weird situation. Obviously, we're having a laugh about this, but I do think there's something deeper going on here. Gabe, I... For sure. A part of me is like your normal brother back. Was he always normal before the whole goat thing? I feel like people aren't totally normal. and then they get absolutely obsessed with a specific animal.

So it's like, okay, was he a little quirky before? And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but this kind of behavior, yeah, I would expect this from a literal child or somebody with a developmental issue of some kind. It's curious. So to answer your question, how's he going to find a girlfriend when he's like this? I mean, he's not. Unless he finds a woman who's really obsessed with goats too,

but that's not normal. This is not normal. But those girls are probably out there, right? I mean, does Tinder have a livestock sense? I think that's illegal in the United States. I don't know. He might have better luck on like farmers only or some subreddit about goats.

You got to go really niche with this one. Or he has to find a girl who's super quirky and has a weird sense of humor and finds it all charming. But I'm almost like he's not doing it to be charming, probably. So it's also still going to get old. But again, this is also going to require your brother to have other good qualities, which I hope he does have.

But the most important one is going to be a sense of humor, a little irony, hopefully a decent dose of self-awareness, and I'm just, I'm not sold. Right. I mean, if he did have those qualities, he probably wouldn't be going around singing about goats all the time. Right. This feels like one of those weird interviews they used to do on Dr. Phil or like Mori Povich before he got obsessed with You're Not the Father, where they'd bring somebody with a super bizarre phobia, like someone who's afraid of cotton balls, right? And they just roll out a cart full of cotton balls. And the person's like, ah, and they're standing up on the chair. And it's like, we're giving you therapy, we're healing you. I can imagine that.

But with this guy in goats, and it's like an intervention to stop the goat thing. And it's just so cringe, but that's an understatement. And the Kairon at the bottom of the screen reads, Help, I've got it bad for goats. Yes. Help, I've got it bad for goats. On the next mori. Okay, but for real, the goat thing is going to be tough in the dating world,

but that's just one aspect of the bigger question, which is what is going on with your brother? Yeah, I think you've got to talk to him. I know you said you did, but instead of making this conversation about how he needs, to stop. I think you need to go back and ask him how he feels about these goats, why they continue to occupy so much of his attention, why he wants to talk and sing and think about them so much. I would almost treat it like you're asking him about a friend who moved away or a friend who

died. Be that curious and compassionate about it because to him, it seems like he does, it feels that way or something. I mean, this is so weird. And I realize how absurd this conversation is, it might be hard to ask him these questions with the straight face and also while not getting angry that he's derailed every family chat for the last two years. But you got to tap into some genuine empathy and try to appreciate why your brother's got it so, I'm just going to say bad. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. For goats. Yeah. Obviously, don't make any goat puns when you talk. I can't, I mean, I guess we can't stop. Look, he might have just stumbled on to a weird bit here and he's doing the joke to death

because he finds it funnier, the more he does it, which I think is kind of annoying, but like, okay, maybe some people are into that. We're kind of doing it right now. But I have a feeling he really loved the goats and he's, like, traumatized that he can't see them anymore,

and he misses them so much. It's been four years. This is definitely not normal. If he was doing this about somebody who passed away, like a good friend who died four years later, I would still say this is odd behavior, talking about it so much. So he's probably mourning them in some way, in these weird

songs and these just dumb voice notes, they're expressions of how much he misses them, which this is not a normal way to express these things. Maybe it's a way to stay connected to them or a way to keep them alive for himself, but this is like, you've got to see a therapist about this kind of stuff. This is abnormal. I think you're right. I also

wonder if this ongoing bit contains some other message. What do you mean? Well, I mean, look, let's remember, they gave away the goats when they moved houses, right? So those are two big changes right there, possibly two big losses. I mean, for some people, those could even be traumas, right? He named them Billy Goat and Motor Goat, which is really cute. It's funny. But that tells me that he had a real relationship with these goats. They weren't just

random animals that they would feed a couple times a day or whatever. She said that his obsession began a bit after they moved. So yes, all of this could be an expression of his love, of his grief. But I wonder if the song and the voice notes come along with some kind of coded message. And that message might be, you took my goats away from me and I'm still really upset about it. And I want you to know that. Interesting. So like he's doing this bit with his family, but what he's really saying is, you hurt me. I'm sad.

I'm sad. Don't do it. Yeah, I'm sad. I want you to notice that, acknowledge that. I want someone to talk to me about it. I want, maybe even I want you to apologize or I just need a little love. I mean, it could be any number of messages or it could be a few different ones. Obviously, we don't really know what's going through your brother's head right now.

I'm not even sure that he knows. But it is interesting. Humor functions in so many different ways and obviously art functions in all these ways. Your brother is on some level making art and humor out of this loss. So yes, it seems silly and trivial, but I'm with Jordan. I think it might actually be something very profound for him. that's another thing you could explore with your brother when you talk. Good point, Gabe, because there's what he's saying and there's why he's saying it.

I mean, you don't blow up the family group chat with voice notes going, blah throughout the day for no reason. It just, it's like this weird passive aggressive way of achieving something almost. Right. It's like the stupidity of the bit almost highlights the message beneath the message, right? Because it's so unvarnished. I guess. I mean, now you're getting into like something you need an MA in fine arts to appreciate,

but maybe you need to be a screenwriter. in Hollywood to fully wrap your mind around on this, but that's how you can help your brother the most right now. Invite him to talk, listen, help him explore all this, and meet him with curiosity and non-judgment. My hope is that as he comes to understand what's driving this goat thing, the obsession will subside a little bit and your quote-unquote normal brother will come back. And if you make a little progress, maybe you work up to saying something like, look, I know this goat thing is funny to you, but I also want you to know how it comes across to other people, how it's starting to strain our relationships.

But again, I'd move slowly. Start with him. Then you can talk about you and your parents. And the fact that this might keep him single for the rest of his life, that can come up after all that. Because this is not going to help him at all. And if all else fails, you know what we're about to say.

Farmers only, discount code Jordan? I wish. Farmers only. Throw us some bucks and get at us. You can sponsor the show. But no, I was going to say therapy, like I mentioned above, right? Better help.

Not too. I'm sure there's a lot for this guy to talk about. and he seems to lack self-awareness to just a critical failure of self-awareness. So he needs somebody who can help him work on that. I think she already knows that. And I'm sorry your brother lost his goats. I'm sorry he's still going through it,

but mostly I'm sorry that your letter inspired us to make so many bad goat puns. You're welcome for not saying bad like that again, by the way. Good luck. And Gabe, you know what this question, by the way, reminds me of? When a win-in-in-in. It really whips the llama's ass. Oh, wow.

Yeah. That took me right back to 1998. But do llamas also make that sound? So llama, sheep, and goats make kind of the same sound? I don't know. I've never interacted with a llama, to be honest. But Winamp, I interacted with a lot. Yes.

Winamp, winamp, winamp. Winamp. It really whips the llama's ass. That's so nostalgic. Never found out what that ever meant either. No one knows. No one knows. Never a thing.

You know what else you're going to want to feed twice a day? Your addiction to the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, a few weeks ago, my husband was invited to his uncle's house to play cards with some of his cousins. I was also invited to come with our kids, so we joined him to hang out with the family. During the game, my husband got to,

up from the table and asked if I wanted to play for him because he needed a break. I've never played cards like this before and thought, why not try? I had a lot of fun socializing with my husband's family. I actually ended up being pretty good and walked away with some money. I was invited back to play the next few weekends. The next weekend was the same. As the group settled in at the table, though, I heard two cousins talking and looking at me. I asked them what was up and they showed me a message from their group chat. The group chat was asking who was playing that night. My husband responded that he and I would be in attendance, and one of the older cousins immediately wrote back, I thought this was going to be a guy cousin thing, but things have evolved. I don't know if I'll make it

out tonight, but I'll try. L, M.A. O, O, Side no, I never know how to pronounce. Is it L, M.A.O. Or La Mau? Well, it's stupid is what it is. This is a child's response to something that makes them uncomfortable. I mean, I would go with L-M-A-O. I don't know. I mean, it's not something you say out loud. L-M-A-O. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, I hate this guy. But continue. So she goes on, the two cousins were confused, saying they didn't see me being there as an issue and brushed it off because, quote-unquote, it's just how he is. When the game started, I asked my husband why he didn't mention the group chat convo, and he said, oh, yeah, it's whatever. You know how he is. As the night went on, that cousin ended up coming. He went around the table saying hello to everyone, said a couple of things,

and then Irish good-bide. After he left, the mood shifted. People who are usually loud and talkative were silent and stone-faced. I continued to play well and people just seemed mad about it. Then it dawned on me. I'm the only woman here. It was like an out-of-body experience. Suddenly realizing you're different from everyone and it isn't being received well is an awful feeling. I felt so unwelcome. so small, like I was 10 years old trying to play with the boys and being shunned for it. I felt myself starting to cry, so I went to the bathroom. I tried to talk myself out of the feelings, tried to tell myself that they're clearly pissed because they're losing to a girl and that's their problem, not mine, that I shouldn't water

myself down for anyone, especially if I'm good at something. But when I went downstairs, the mood had swung back in the other direction and everyone was having a good time and laughing. So I let my husband know I was taking the kids home and asked him to get a ride. from someone. Since then, I've been torn between wanting to stand up for myself and thinking that maybe I should know my place and step back from hanging with the guys. I so badly want to take it on the chin and continue being myself, but my strongest impulse is to curl up into a tiny ball and blend into the background. My whole life is making myself as small as possible so as not to

inconvenience anyone else. I thought I had found a place where I could unapologetically be myself, just like everyone else in this family. But I'm starting to think I got too comfortable. I never once doubted my place in my husband's family. I get along with everyone very well. In fact, I feel more comfortable at their gatherings than at my own families. So hearing this threw me for a loop, and I just felt sad. Also, I'm kind of upset with my husband for not saying anything in the group chat.

That's left me feeling very alone, like my husband doesn't have my back. Am I taking this too personally? why am I having such a strong reaction to a relatively minor occurrence? Why didn't my husband come to my defense? And how do I carry myself with my husband's family from here on out? Signed, ready to fold, because the dudes in this family are cold. Interesting question. I can see why this was disappointing, kind of hurtful,

the feeling you're describing of being unwelcome, unwanted, inconvenient, the odd man out or the odd woman out as the case may be. That's definitely tough, and I'm sorry that they made you feel that way. So first of all, this sounds like a guys poker night, and guys poker night probably has its own vibe, its own politics, at play. This group clearly wants a certain kind of evening. They have certain preferences and you sort of change the dynamic. And look, whether that's silly or petty or necessary, it is what it is.

It's a guy's poker night. If you had a standing weekly wine and painting party with your girlfriends and one of their husbands started showing up, like if the cousin were one of your friend's husbands and he started rolling up, painting masterpieces and talking about sports instead of, I don't know, Bridgeton or whatever, you'd probably be like, I thought this was just a ladies night. Now, I'm not saying these are the same thing or that you're as annoying and rude as this cousin is. I highly doubt that's the case. Or that even that these two hobbies are equivalent. But there are different spaces for different

groups for a reason. And it's possible that these guys want one kind of evening and now it's becoming a different kind of evening. And whether that's fair or unfair, that's just how it is for some of these guys, not all of them, because let's remember they did invite you to play in the first place, which is kind of part of what's so strange about all this. Right. So no, you're not taking this too personally because it did happen to you personally. It sounds like these guys are not the most welcoming. They're not the most gracious. And yeah, losing to you, that probably added insult to injury. These guys sound kind of petty and annoying, to be honest, but obviously we don't have the full story, nor do we know what's going on for them. At the same time, how they feel

about you being there, whether this is about having a woman in the group or having you there specifically, that says at least as much about them. So that makes it not entirely about you. And from that angle, you might be taking this a little more personally than you have to. Now, about your husband not coming to your defense, again, I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, yeah, it would be nice if he said chill guys, it's my wife. She's good at poker, get used to it. On the other hand, maybe he also kind of wants it to just be the fellas. And I'm not sure that's entirely unfair. He might also be giving into social pressure here a little bit. It might not be that he doesn't love you and he doesn't want to defend you. It might just be that he doesn't want to

create drama in the group chat. So this is a conversation with him. But honestly, if I had one loser-ass cousin who's a grown man who's like 40 and still lives with his parents or doesn't like or respect women, I've already given up on this yutz. Okay, I'm not going to try and change his personality on WhatsApp. The dude's already a man-child from the sound of it. Why am I going to my time and get everyone riled up giving him a talking to. I'm just not going to do it. Right. Yeah, that's clearly what he meant by, you know, how he is, right? He's saying this guy's a lost cause. I don't feel like dealing with him and trying to teach him how to be a decent person. But actually, the most interesting thing to me about this letter isn't whether she belongs at this

poker game. It's actually how all of this is hurting her so profoundly. Well, to her credit, she's already onto that, right? She's going, Yes. Why am I having such a strong reaction to a relatively minor occurrence? Right, which is such a great question, especially when you have a very strong response to something that seems otherwise kind of insignificant. Now, we do have a few clues. One is that she was the only woman there, so she felt different. She felt that she wasn't wanted. I do wonder whether she leapt at that explanation because it was the most obvious one. Maybe it's like that's the most glaring difference between her and these people, but it could have also just been that they are not being very nice or there just isn't good chemistry in this group.

But either way, apparently that feeling goes back to at least 10 years old, which is an awful feeling. And I get why that hurt. But I think this might even go deeper than that. Like she said, her strongest impulse is to curl up into a tiny ball and blend into the background. Right. Her whole life is making herself as small as possible so as not to inconvenience anyone else.

That really jumped out of me, too. So clearly this is a sort of pattern for her. This is how she moves through the world, generally speaking. And we don't know how that behavior developed, but it almost certainly goes back. to childhood and it has probably been reinforced by many, many experiences since then. So I think this whole poker thing hurts on two levels. One, it might confirm to her that she really should be a wallflower, she should be small, she should stay in the background, which sucks.

And it probably hurts because she tried something very different at this poker game, which, by the way, is so hard to do, and it's also so admirable. She jumped in, she played for her husband, she did well, she owned her skill, She came back again. She felt like she belonged. And the message she got back from some of these guys, and I think that's important. It's not all of them, but some of them, or at least the message that she heard from them, was, nah, we don't like that.

We don't like you. You are too much. Yeah, exactly. The rejection, it kind of hit her in the jugular. I think that's, yeah, it's a tender spot. Yeah, it probably hit her right in the wound that the impulse to make herself very small is designed to protect. Yeah, it kind of broke my heart when she said that she thought she'd found a place where she could unapologetically be herself.

I mean, we all need a place like that. But then she's like, oh, got too comfortable. And I'm not sure the problem is that she got too comfortable. It sounds like she was having a ball and taking up some space, which I think is tremendous. It's just that they weren't comfortable with her partially because this dude decided to make a big deal out of it. Exactly. But she also said something else very meaningful, which is, I feel more comfortable at their gatherings than my own families. So that tells us two more important things.

one, that she's maybe not particularly close to her own family. Maybe she was the black sheep or if they have their own issues. That's probably also, by the way, a clue to where the impulse to make herself a small as possible began. And second, that feeling at home in her husband's family is really significant to her. So being shunned by them or being mocked by them, again, it's kind of a double wound. If she can't be with her family, and now she feels like she can't be in his family. Yeah, so like what family does she get to belong to? Who really loves her at all?

Exactly, which probably also explains why her husband not standing up for her in the group chat bothered her so much. Right. Like who is on my side here, for God's sake? Totally. And I get that. Feeling like you belong and then finding out, oh, actually, secretly, everybody doesn't while you're here, that sucks. And depending on your personal history, it can be devastating. So where I'm landing on all of this is I love that you showed up to this poker game. I love that you rocked it, that you felt at home. I think that was super important for you to do. And the really great news here is you know that you have that desire in you, and you know that you have that ability to not just shrink away and be in the background. You can hang and you can hang with the boys. At the same time, I'm not totally sure if this is your poker game. If these guys are annoying, if they're kind of petty, if some of them are unkind, or even if they're not, but they just want a certain kind of evening,

and that doesn't include you, ultimately, that's okay. And I really do think that that says much, much more about them than a done. about you. Ultimately, you don't want to push on a pole door, right? If they don't want to hang, F that noise, maybe you just got to let them have this one. But my strong advice to you, which I'm actually very excited to share, is that you should follow this desire to be part of a community and to take up space and to be big and to be good at a game and to have fun. I would follow that desire to a group that does think you're awesome, that does want you there. You deserve that, and now you know that you're capable of it.

Gabe, the story is kind of pissing me off, actually. Because even if this is a guy's night, it still sucks that they're signaling to her that she's not welcome. I mean, she's part of their family. You just don't treat family members like this. I've been in her shoes before. It sucks. But I wouldn't extrapolate from this poker night to know how your husband's family feels about you in general.

I think it's very possible that they still like you and they love you and they want you around. And this is the piece of your reaction that you really have to sit with and unpacked to notice the story that you're telling about, you know, what all this means and your status in the family because, yeah, your cousin's a dick, and maybe they weren't the most gracious. But you might also be drawing some conclusions based on your conditioning,

your assumptions that are just not necessarily accurate. So keep being kind, keep being loving, and make sure you take stock of all the ways your husband's family treats you well, too, because I really do think that this poker night might be a special case. Sending you a hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line.

That makes our job a lot easier. been stalked by your father, your boyfriend's been putting off moving in together because he's secretly been cheating, or you're wondering whether to adopt your troubled sister-in-law's baby. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey, guys, I'm a male firefighter and paramedic, and about four years ago, I responded to a child who I watched bleed to death at school.

Those images have stuck with me and have affected my mental. health in ways that I never imagined. Ooh, yeah, that's really intense, and I'm sorry that you saw that. A big part of your job. By the way, so many first responders people deal with trauma, and it's so crucial that they have the right support in place to work through it so it doesn't develop into PTSD. Man, I'm sorry to hear about this. You got to wonder what causes a child to bleed to death during school.

Like, what happened? Jeez. Something terrible. Obviously. So he goes on. Like most struggling firefighters, I turn. to alcohol. Oh, man. Then, late last year, I was arrested for being drunk in public, indecent exposure, and

carrying a switchblade knife. While I admitted to drinking and carrying the switchblade knife is indisputable, I don't agree with the indecent exposure charge. The story that a quote-unquote witness is telling is different from the truth that I remember. This person also has a criminal record, though I'm not aware of the details. So, Gabe, I'm just reading between the lines here. I'm guessing he got really drunk, peed in an alley or something like that, and a cop rolled by and saw him, or somebody was like, he pulled his penis out in front of me. And it's like, well, is that really the whole story? That's kind of the picture I'm getting to. And maybe that's why he disputes the indecent

exposure charge because he's like, I wasn't indecently exposing myself. I was just peeing in buying a dumpster. Right. But you can sometimes get charged with that, especially if you're three sheets to the wind and you're being sloppy. So, okay, we don't know for sure. Maybe he didn't whip it out at all. And apologies to our friend here if we're getting this part wrong, but he's being a tiny bit vague. So I want to get a clear sense of what happened. Well, his vagueness might be part of the story to some degree. So let's come back to that. He goes on, I've taken the steps to write my wrongs.

I've attended AA meetings and have remained sober since the incident. I owned up to my mistakes. Well, good on you. I'm glad you're sober. That's terrific. That's the bedrock of coming back from something like this and probably why it had to happen, I'd argue. But the department feels that I'm being dishonest. They intend to dismiss me and I'm scheduling a skelly hearing. So for anyone who doesn't know,

a skelly hearing is a pre-disciplinary hearing where public employees are, basically they're given notice of the allegations against them and then they have the opportunity to respond. So they can say, no, these allegations are not true or they can say, I would propose that we have this alternative remedy or this other discipline, not being fired. Right. Sort of due process for public employees. Right, exactly. So he goes on, the unfortunate part is that I was not aware of the charges brought against me until the department interviewed me as part of the investigation. I also didn't notify the department right away as charges have never been filed to this day. Okay, so again, I'm just going to jump in. This is a tiny bit confusing. I just want to clarify. He's saying he wasn't aware of the charges until his department interviewed him, but then he's saying that charges were never filed. So I think what he means is there are these disciplinary charges brought by the department. which I assume are a matter of, like, personnel and policy. And then there are criminal charges brought by the law. So what he means is he was arrested, but he was never officially criminally charged.

Yes, that's my sense. So he goes on, I initially intended to notify the department about what happened, but after posting bail, I contacted the attorney associated with the union, who advised me not to contact the department just yet. He felt I had no obligation to report the incident, and that they wouldn't receive any sort of notice from any database, since no charges had been filed. But now the department is using that against me.

Four days after the incident, they received a pull notice from DOJ, basically a notification from the program that monitors employee records. All of the attorneys I've consulted with feel it was obtained unlawfully. With still no charges brought against me from the DA, I'm facing termination.

Oh, man. Yeah, this is a top break. I've been a firefighter with this department for six years, and as far as I know, I've never given them a reason to doubt me. My mental health is at rock bottom. I know it was my fault for consuming alcohol and putting myself in a situation to be accused. But I also know what happened. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Do you have any advice on how to navigate this and hopefully hang on to my job? Signed, stuck in this quagmire, after my counsel backfired. Oh, man. Well, look, I'm very sorry this happened to you. There's a really interesting chain of events here. from the initial trauma of what you saw on the job, to the drinking, to that fateful night, to the investigation, to the termination decision.

And I would venture to guess that there are dots to connect even before the trauma that made that experience even more impactful. So your childhood, your life up to that point, your baseline mental health going in. This stuff is, it's complex. But so you're drawing a line through those major events, and at various points along the way you're saying,

yes, this was my fault, but also kind of not my fault. And I think it's fair to some degree. Clearly, this all cascaded in a way that you couldn't control and might not be entirely fair, but the unspoken theme of your letter to me is how much responsibility do we really have when it comes to poor decisions? And how much accountability do we take when factors outside of our control come around and screw us over? Really interesting questions. We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to T.D. Delapena, a supervisor at a police agency in California in a friend of the show. Yep, and also my police consultant on my short film, who is just a judge.

just a real gem of a human being. Yeah, he's a great dude. And one of the few cops we've met who has a real appreciation for human nature, a real sensitivity for the difficult parts of the job. So the first thing TD said was, you're on the wagon, you're in AA, you're taking care of yourself a lot better.

That's really great news. You deserve a lot of credit for that. And like I said, that's the foundation of everything from here on out. Through a few off-the-record conversations, we found that a lot of times, a lot of stuff like this, a lot of these infractions,

they can follow you for your whole career. You know, you could end up with an infraction 25 years ago and people are still bringing that up in performance reviews or talking about it around the office. It's not something you can easily shake. Unfortunately, in TD's experience, you'll probably always be the pissing in the alley guy, assuming that's what you did. Your colleagues will probably have heard rumors about what happened. The scuttle butt is real.

The officers who arrested you, they might know people at your fire department, all the gossip spreads. As TD explained to us, this is how a professional reputation takes a hit, and it can really hamstring your career trajectory. And that's true in like any field, but it seems to be especially true in public safety. Now, you seem to be under the impression that you only needed to notify your department if you were charged criminally. But TD said that you oftentimes need to notify your department if there's any negative contact with law enforcement. That's the case for all police departments in the state of California anyway. TD wasn't sure if that's the case for fire departments

as well, but you're saying that your department is penalizing you for not reporting this. So that that makes us think that your department does, in fact, require employees to say, hey, I got into a situation with the police, here's what happened, I'm sorry, I want to come clean about it. So to quote TD here, at the end of the day, your internal review is not about whether you're getting charged with a crime or whether you committed a crime, it's about whether you violated your department's policy, which you clearly did. Now, what sucks is that your union attorney is the want to advise you not to notify the department about what happened. And TD confirmed you do need to listen to your union lawyer on stuff like this. So if they're saying appeal and go to the skelly,

then you got to appeal and go to the skelly and you got to take your chances there. So that's where I really feel for you. You were advised by somebody who should know and then that advice that bit you in the ass and was wrong. And that sucks. There's no way around it. And that's the one point in your story where I'm going, this didn't go your way in a way that's unfair. And that's not your fault. But that you ended up in a position to be screwed, that part is your responsibility. And I hear you taking responsibility for that in your letter. And I also sometimes hear you not entirely taking responsibility for that. And TD zeroed in on that as well, how you're kind of vacillating here. TD heard a lot of hedging and minimizing in your letter. As a supervisor,

he's not a fan of that personally, but that's kind of his personal bias. As he put it to us, this is something that happened. It's going to play out the way it's going to play out. There's no way to stop that now. What you can do, however, is say, I dealt with my trauma in an unhealthy and irresponsible way. I made several mistakes that got me in hot water. And then you get therapy, you stay sober, accept whatever the consequences are, and then you start focusing on building a new life and career, whether that means rebuilding your reputation of the department you're in, if that's even possible, going to a different department and starting over or getting into a new field entirely. There's a connection here to Jocko Willing's whole philosophy.

right, the extreme ownership idea. Oh, good point. You got to bite the bullet and take full responsibility. Not half responsibility, not responsibility, but responsibility, full stop. Especially as somebody who works in public safety, because in TD's view,

you are held to a higher standard. Yes, for sure. And Tadie brought up one other good question here, which was he wondered what your relationships and your reputation were like at your agency before this all happened. Because this whole thing really didn't go your way. And now it sounds like you're probably about to be terminated.

And sure, maybe that's just a matter of bureaucracy and bad luck. But it does make me wonder if people in your department truly had your back before this happened. Because you would be amazed what kind of behavior can be forgiven, what kind of second chances can be extended when the higher ups like you and they respect you and they're invested in you and they want to keep you around. And because there is this slightly wishy-washy responsibility thing happening in this letter, I got to say I do see TD's point. Now, we're clearly speculating a little bit here. We don't know how you showed up in your job until now.

We don't know how people see you. You did say that you've never given them a reason to doubt you, but that's a little bit different from I've built incredible relationships and I've been an outstanding employee and people really admire and respect me. Those are very different experiences in the workplace. So part of me wonders whether this attitude, this mindset, how it might not have created the trust and the goodwill and the loyalty to absorb a mistake like this. TD's philosophy, pretty simple, don't be a dick. It's a simple rule. No one will have your back because you're going to need

the benefit of the doubt one day. And that's just something for you to sit with and consider right now. And if there's any truth to that, even a little bit, then that's something else that you could work on. and that's something that you can definitely take with you into your next chapter. Right, and that might also be part of the reason that this quote-unquote had to happen, right, to show him how absolutely crucial that is. Right. So however this skelly hearing goes, however this shakes out, TD's advice to you is basically this. First off, and this is not going to be news to you, TD's experience is that these incidents almost always stem from unresolved issues,

especially in the public safety profession. So his strong recommendation was, you really want to talk to a therapist right now. Now, you're still employed at the moment, so TD said that you can probably go through the EAP, the employee assistance program, or you can find a wellness or a peer support program, find a therapist that's probably covered by the department. Second, your rep has taken a really big hit here. It might even be shot, even if you don't get fired. So even if you make it through this, at a minimum, you're going to have to work and stay clean

for years to fix your reputation. And third, TD said that you have very little control over what happens at this point. The question now is, what is the punishment going to be? A TD pointed out that you're not the first person to get in trouble for something like this, right? There are guidelines to follow here, and your department probably already knows what they're going to give you. Now, your punishment might increase or decrease as a result of the skelly. It's hard to say. But if you're truly facing termination, then you really have nothing to lose. It does not get worse than termination. But if you might be facing just a few months of suspension, things could get worse in a skelly. It's not unheard of. So the skelly is a gamble, just something else to keep in mind.

But look, if you do get terminated, TD said that unfortunately, you're probably done as a firefighter. It's terrible. But if you get terminated or suspended for a long time, you're going to have to find somebody who will take a chance on you. And that can be really hard. But there is some hope here. Maybe you can work for another agency, the U.S. Forest Service, something like that. Maybe you become an EMT with a private company. Maybe you go into something completely unrelated, like maybe something in the recovery world. That might be very meaningful given your sobriety journey. TD said it's never too late to reinvent yourself, to save yourself. There's always a chance. And he pointed out that the people who initially hired you, they believed in you, they invested in

you, and they did that at great expense. They wouldn't do that for no reason. You have the strength, You have skills, you have potential, so hang on to that. But more than anything, the big wake-up call here is you need to take care of yourself. You need to be a solid human being who treats people well and owns his responsibilities and builds a stellar reputation so that this never happens again. And if you take that lesson to heart, if you apply it wherever you go fully without qualification, I know you're going to make it through this okay. So hang in there, bud, and good luck.

You know what else you're going to want to whip out in public, Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one searchable and clickable place over at Jordan Harbinger.com

slash deals. Also, if you can't remember the name of the sponsor or you're not able to use the deals page for some odd reason, you can email me, Jordan atjarbinger.com. I will happily surface a code. for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a partial owner of a small business, and we're currently in our fourth year. It's been a struggle and a huge learning experience, but we're finally in a position to have a really good, profitable year. The problem is, my business partner, to put it bluntly, sucks. He's not around very often, which is annoying when I'm there pretty much every day. When he is around, he frequently pisses off our employees and is generally disrespectful to them and sometimes even to me. This makes it really hard when I'm the one who all the employees like and respect, and I have to hold the company together because without our employees, we would not survive.

He's the typical boss, not a leader. Yeah, kind of know exactly what you mean here. I and several others have had conversations with him about treating employees better and being more present, and it seems to go in one year. not the other 99% of the time. Interesting. So this guy almost certainly isn't going to change. He just doesn't, he doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't sound like it. Also, being more present, something you can work on if you want to, but treating people just decently, like basically decently, that's a character thing, right? That's harder to change. Sounds so familiar. This guy sounds like an a-hole, and he's incompetent on a number of levels. It's very hard, next to

impossible, to work with people like this. He also wants to grow the business at what I feel is an unsustainable pace and borrow a ton of money, which scares the hell out of me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and we're going to have to use your credit. You're going to have to be a personal guarantor as well. So, yeah, get to it. Okay, I'm going to answer that one right off the bat.

Do not take out loans with a partner who wants to grow the business at breakneck speed, especially when they are not putting in the work and they are not behaving like a leader who can deliver on that growth. Nothing good will come from that. you're going to end up being on the hook personally, and then that guy's going to end up jumping ship or sinking the ship. I concur, totally. So he goes on, while we will likely finally make some good money this year, I can't help but think I just want out. I recently got married, I have my first child on the way, and I don't want my kid to grow up with a super stressed out unhappy dad.

But I'm not sure where to go from here. If I stay, there's a pretty good chance I'll make a ton of money over the next decade or so. But my shares of the company are worth a decent amount right now, about $200 to $300,000. I could do a lot with that money, including starting my own business. I'm sure I could even bring a handful of my current employees with me, but I would feel bad kneecapping my business partner. But the company doesn't even have that kind of cash to buy me out of my shares. Bingo, one thing I've learned over the years, the value of your shares, usually those are not as valuable as you think. If you're not a publicly traded company, those shares, that share value? It's like it's just monopoly money because they're only valuable if somebody's

willing and is able to buy them. And if not, then I'm sorry to say those shares are, they're worthless. But also, if your partner does buy you out, that deal's probably going to come with some sort of non-compete agreement, which I mean, I don't see why it wouldn't. And sometimes the non-compete is actually worse than the buyout, especially if you're talented and enterprising like you are. Right. So he goes on, I could also get a job in the same industry, making more than I am now. Should I dissolve my shares and leave with nothing, but do so relatively stress-free? Do I make an agreement with the company to pay me over a certain time period? If the company goes bankrupt without me before I get paid out, what do I do?

Should I wait it out until the company has more money for me to exit with? And how do I talk to my partner about all this? Signed, leaving a situation that's fatal when there's a good chunk of change on the table. Okay, so many thoughts. So if you know my story at all, you know that this letter hits very, very close to home. Long story short, I went through a bad business breakup, six or seven, probably, is it seven years? I don't even know slash care. Now, I worked with some very difficult partners, ones who engaged in a lot of the same behavior as yours. It took me years to come to terms

with those challenges with my decision to leave until finally, my old partners essentially made the decision for me and we were in the midst of separating amicably like you think you're going to do, and they were just like, what if we give you nothing? Which is how I started this show which is basically the best slash worst, but actually the best most amazing thing that ever happened to me. So let me start by saying your partner's behavior,

it's objectively problematic. It's extremely difficult to work with and work on, and I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. If this guy was just kind of brash, or he's like bad with social cues, or he's a little scatterbrained, or any number of more minor flaws,

and you talk to him about it, and he was like, oh, wow, yeah, I can do better, I'll work on this. That's a different story. That's not this guy. You and several other people have talked to him about this, and he's just not interested in changing. Now, I don't know exactly how you talk to him. I don't know if you guys tiptoed around him or you minimize things or you failed to follow through.

Maybe he didn't get the message. But the message is pretty clear, and it sounds to me like you have enough data now to know that this guy is not a healthy, productive, uplifting partner. So given all that, I'm going to be real direct with you. I would seriously consider leaving this company. and I know that that's scary, but just hear me out here. Everything you've described screams, guy who wants all the glory and power and wealth, but is absolutely not willing to put in the work

and conduct himself in a way that would achieve those things. And when you're up against that, in my experience, it's a no-win situation. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse from here on out. And by sticking with somebody like this because there's potential money in it, I mean, I'm 95% sure your concerns and your resentment, they're only going to grow.

and you're going to pay the price with your happiness, like you alluded to in your letter, which now that you're a husband and a father, that price is even higher because other people depend on you and are affected by you. You owe it to them to be healthy and high functioning as well as to yourself. Now, if you can get this guy to buy your shares

with a payment plan over time, that's obviously worth pushing for her. But again, look, I don't know how realistic that is. Plus, there's going to be a potential non-compete that could really hold you back, which is yet another reason I would not overindex the value of your shares in this equation. In fact, I think they might be hurting you by making you cling to this toxic situation. So yes, I would at least be willing to dissolve

your shares and leave with nothing if it meant finding a situation that's healthier, happier, potentially more lucrative. The worst case scenario is you leave with no buyout and no non-compete and you can go work for somebody else in your industry or you can start your own shop, which is what you said you might want to do earlier. But even then, you're not really, leaving with nothing. You know the best people in the company. You have their loyalty. You know how to run a company in this space. That is extremely valuable. And I know from my own experience, I undervalued that when I left my previous company. I was like, I'm going to have to start over. It's going to be impossible. It took 11 years to get here. And now, and then like a year later, I'm like, no, I know

how to run a good podcast. I know how to hire. I brought my whole team over because they all left the previous company with me because they didn't like the other guys either. So even if you have to leave with quote unquote nothing, there's a really good chance you have zero obligation to your partner and you could just poach most of the staff you need and you could really eat his lunch and he's kind of left with no recourse. I would obviously talk to a lawyer about that so you don't get into hot water with trade secret law and stuff like that, but I'm, I've got my doubts that he's going to be in a position to do anything about you poaching some staff. And if the company goes bankrupt before you get paid out, that's going to make you a creditor of the company and you're going to

bend over like everybody else, like every credit card, another vendor that is owed money by this company and never get squat, which honestly, you file a proof of claim, you hope for the best, you literally forget about it, and any money you get is gravy and basically just luck. And yes, if you have a reasonable degree of confidence that the company will get more money in the next like six months or so, sure, time your exit with the company being in a better position if you can do that. Yeah, but then if the company's in a better position and if it can stay in that position long enough to actually continue paying him out, then I would imagine it would be because of him,

right? So if he leaves, how is he going to make the company successful to then do right by him? That's the same situation I was in. It was like, I'm leaving and you can buy me out. And my lawyer was like, dude, you run, you generate all the leads and you get all of the sales and you manage the sales team and the production team. What are these yuts is going to do to generate revenue to pay you out? Nothing.

And I was like, I'm so mad. I remember, I was like, I'm so mad. I want to do something bad. and my lawyer was like, you have done the single most damaging thing to this company that you possibly could, which is leave it in the care of these two morons. And the judge actually is the one who kind of nodded and laughed at that, which tells you something. I mean, the impartial mediator judge was like, yep, that's pretty much how I see it. Like, these guys are dumbasses. You should just leave. Wow. I mean, the judge can't say that, but the fact that he chuckled and smiled and

nodded was enough for me. I also like the idea of you getting a job in the same industry. You said you'd be making more doing that than you are now? That's awesome. That could be a great move, especially as the soon-to-be-dad, stability is important too. And having a stable job while you lay out the groundwork for starting your own company in a year or two, that could also be a smart strategy. Maybe it takes time to ramp up. Maybe it takes longer than you think sometimes. I really don't know what you're in. Yeah, and who knows? Maybe you end up working for somebody amazing and you keep learning and you meet even more people in your industry. I mean, that could be a crucial move before you start your own business.

For sure. Just I would say one thing, don't feel like you need a safety net just for the sake of having that safety net. I mean, it's often better to take momentum you have from running your own business and just parlay it into doing your own business again. There's costs emotionally, mentally associated with like,

now I'm in a corporate environment again where things are more lax and I can take my foot off the gas and I'm not in charge. And then, oh, I've, all right, I got to start my own company. And it's like, okay, you got to rip off that bandaid again. Right now, you are going from, running your own thing to running your own thing, the transition's tough, but I don't necessarily think it's going to be tougher than going back to corporate and then back out on your own.

I don't necessarily think those things are equivalent. Now, as for talking to your partner about all this, first of all, definitely check your partnership agreement or whatever contract you have. Make sure you don't have a non-compete or some other clause that's going to take you by surprise or bite you in the ass if you quit. Second, hire a lawyer, like right now, and have them read the contract and advise you on how to proceed, how to communicate with your partner, how to prepare for what's ahead. You do not want to be scrambling to find an attorney the day after you leave or things blow up. You want to be way

out in front of that and have a good relationship with a good lawyer already. This is key. Because the one huge advantage you have right now is time and timing. You've got time to get your ducks in a row. Plus, you basically have the element of surprise when you decide to pull the trigger. And I guarantee you this narcissistic prick of a business partner, he's going to be like, what? You can't leave. Well, screw you if you want to leave. That's how these guys kind of all predictably react. So make the most of that advantage. Put all the pieces for your exit in place, your relationships, your finances, your strategy. Do that before you have this conversation, and you'll be 12 steps ahead of this dude. And then if the worst happens, which it unfortunately

sometimes does, like I said, you're going to be so prepared, it's not going to be nearly as bad. You're not going to lose sleep being like, oh my God, I wish I'd done this. You're going to be like, I'm so glad I did that two months ago before this guy had a meltdown. Third, like I said, partners like this who are egomaniacs, in my experience, they do not like to feel backed into a corner. They're going to lash out. So if you decide to quit, I would frame this transition like it's a choice. Instead of saying, like, I'm leaving or you got to leave.

You might want to say, hey, so I'm actually thinking about leaving the company. What is sort of the best way for us to do that? I don't want to disrupt business. Do you want to take it over? Do you want me to buy you out? whatever, I mean, actually, in fact, let me get back to that. I think you asking him is going to stroke his ego and make him feel like he's still in charge. Also, if you say, I'm leaving the company, your partner could retaliate. He could fire you. He could pull all sorts of stuff. That's

actually what happened to me, right? It was just like pure retaliation to the detriment of the company, which was not terribly surprising, but I also, I guess I underestimated just how much somebody would cut off their nose to spite their face. Don't make that same mistake. And if he isn't interested in taking over the company, then maybe you say, okay, do you want me to take it over and buy you out? Assuming that's something you'd want, of course. And if he says yes, then it's going to seem like it's almost his idea. And that's going to go a lot better for you. And then promise yourself that you'll do everything in your power to avoid partnering with somebody like this again in the future. So look, I'm really sorry your partners like this. It's a damn shame.

But I'm super excited for you. And I'm not just saying that because I know what it's like to be stuck in a toxic partnership. I know how draining it is. And I also know what it's like to finally get out and take your life back. It's incredible, especially, you're going to be surprised. Like I said, I ran a company for 11 years. The first year that I was out, we made more profit than that company ever made in any peak year. It was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. In six months or a year or whatever, you're going to look back and be like, I am so lucky that this happened. When other people told me, when I was going through the company breakup, they were like, this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to you. I wanted to punch those people straight in the face, but they were

100% correct over time. You're going to leave this company. You're going to start something new without carrying the dead weight of this business partner, this good for nothing. Or you're going to get a great job with a great company somewhere you're going to do even better, and you're never going to look back. You will not. I'm one of those people who can confidently say, through my own personal experience and almost the exact same situation, that this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to you, even if the transition is stressful.

I think a famous writer once said, Life's too short to read a bad book. There are some parallels here with careers. Life is just too damn short to work with A-Holes who don't want to work on themselves and don't want to change. And I firmly believe that.

We only get one shot at all this. So make it fun, make it successful, make it high-functioning. And I'm, like I said, I'm pumped for you, man. Good luck in whatever you decide to do. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the Bobby Gunn episode as well as Out of the Loop on Israel and Iran if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust.

And if you're going through a transition like the guy in Q4 back there, I highly suggest this course for you. It's free. It's called six-minute networking. It's not gross and schmoozy. It's on the thinkific platform at six-minute networking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. This is invaluable. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty people. Build those relationships before you need them. Six-minute networking.com. Find us on the subreddit, comment on episodes. We don't control that subreddit. There's only a few people in there, but we are conversing and discussing shows and Gabe and I pop in there from time to time. Also our newsletter over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. We're going to be doing a new format there, but that has been quite popular and a lot of fun

for us. We dig into old episodes, find out those gems, pull out the takeaways. So if you want to know what to listen to next or you want to re-examine a takeaway from a previous episode, Jordan Harbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Show notes and transcripts on the website at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, and most importantly, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show has created an association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogart, Ian Baird,

Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show

so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. If you're not honest with yourself, then how do you ever move your life into positive direction? Because you're starting from a point to fantasy. Nobody can succeed if you're not honest with themselves. Revenue cures all. You know, when I talk to people in business seminars and they're saying,

John, my labor costs is high, my marketing costs is high, my commotion cost is high, my tech cost is high. But if I could raise your revenue by 30%, you wouldn't have pet cost problems anymore. You wouldn't have labor cost problems. So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives. If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in a morning, and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now?

How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then I can deal with all of the other things that I have to, but there's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. And if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first thing, probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur. And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender,

people say he's been a bartender for 10 years, he should be the manager. No, if he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be the manager. Some people are comfortable where they are, and you promote him right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender, for 10 years. Leave him alone. The person who's not comfortable,

who's bubbling up on their own, that's the one who should be promoted, even if they've only been leaving for a couple months. I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train the leader. I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed him off a cliff. Leadership is born. It's not given.

For more no-nonsense business advice with Bar Rescue star John Taffer, check out episode 142 of the Jordan Harbinger show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

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