The Jordan Harbinger Show - 985: Lives Are at Stake in Bail Reform's Wake | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: May 3, 2024

When bail reforms free violent offenders and risk others' safety, how can we uphold justice while safeguarding victims? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday: When bail reforms free violent offenders and risk others' safety, how can we uphold justice while safeguarding victims? You've about had it with your autistic boss' cringeworthy conspiracy theories. How can you disagree respectfully and maintain professionalism? As a cancer patient struggling with massive student loans and disability assistance denial, what legal help and guidance is available for navigating private loan regulations while fighting for survival? You've invented a non-functional plastic object that brings laughter to all who behold its absurdity. You want to protect the IP so you can profit from this stroke of comedic novelty, but you can't ignore the potential environmental impact of manufacturing such an item en masse. What should you do? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/985 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This episode is sponsored in part by Conspiruality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy med yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspiruality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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Find Conspirality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you do. get your podcasts. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a guy who's really going through it this week, so I'm a spare him his usual roast today. Gabriel Mizrahi.

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Yeah, dude, I'm so sorry. We'll get into what's going on in a second here. But first, on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice

that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with people who will help you do that. Folks like drug traffickers, former jihadis, gold smugglers, astronauts, hackers, CEOs, and other amazing folks. This week we had Susan Casey on, just a fascinating insight into the oceans. We talk about everything from undersea mining to sea life to shipwrecks. Who doesn't love shipwrecks?

Also, coming this Sunday, we got a skeptical Sunday coming up, and it's about porn, you perverts. So you're going to want to check that one now comes out on Sunday. On Fridays, though, we tell stories, take letters, offer advice, and make room for the impossible, the mysterious, the absurd, I guess. So on that note, Gabe, you want to fill everyone in on what's going on? Sure, yeah, thank you. So, yeah, if you've been listening to the show for a little while, you know that my cat, Drake, who's the first cat I adopted on my own, my little homie.

He ended up living with my mom for a variety of reasons. But one day, about a year ago, he went missing. And I talked about it on the show, if you haven't heard that episode, very weird and long story short. He disappeared one day while my mom was renovating the guest bathroom in her apartment. She lives on the fifth floor of a building. And we spent four, four and a half frantic days looking for him, the worst four days of my life. And then we finally put it together that the contractor accidentally sealed him underneath the floorboards while he was working. So, yeah, we tore up the concrete.

and luckily we found him alive, super skinny, but alive and totally fine. Yeah, one of the greatest days of my life. So I'm very sad to say that a couple weeks ago, Drake disappeared again. And he's been missing for two or three weeks now as of this recording when this comes out. It might be a couple more weeks, I guess, if we don't get any news. And I got to say this time, we have no idea what happened. It is so bizarre. We have no good theories.

We have no leads. It is a total mystery. How he got out or where he went, it's like he vanished into thin air. Except, of course, he didn't. I know there's some explanation. But all of the theories we have are just so remote, so insane. They just don't make any sense. Yeah, I think it was like, oh, maybe he hid inside the couch,

and then the workman carried out the old couch, and he didn't jump out the whole time, and then he didn't jump. Like, it's almost like too far-fetched. Yeah. Far more fetched than him going into a hole and nobody noticing. Yeah, so the one weird thing that happened, which we think, I mean, it's the only unusual variable. So I feel like it has to be related to this somehow is that my mom got two new couches. That was on a Friday.

And then on Saturday, the following day, she had some people come to the house and take away the old couches. So obviously, it must have something to do with the couches, right? But I don't want to bore everybody with every detail. But like, we have pretty much confirmed that there's no way he could have been in the couch, on the couch. We looked at security camera footage of the people coming and going. there's no cat in sight. We have explored the weird theory that he somehow got out the front door, went into the neighbor's house where they're renovating. We explored that fully. He's not there. He's not underneath the floorboards there. So he must have gone out the front door or the balcony door,

which he's never done and he hates the outside, which is part of what doesn't make sense. But if he did that and then disappeared, he would have had to jump five stories down to the ground, which he has never tried to do. And I don't even know. But if that's what happened, And then he might be injured or he might have made it and wandered around. Anyway, we are doing everything we can to find him, like everything. I mean, everything we did last time and more. You know, we're posting on all the websites. We're setting traps in the building and around the neighborhood.

Can't believe I'm back in my unlicensed cat trapper era. But we've even consulted with a pet detective who, by the way, Jordan, I have to tell you. This pet detective is named Landa Coldiron, which is the greatest name. name for a pet detective ever. You can't make this stuff up. It sounds like Ace Ventura's partner in pet detection. Totally. In the sequel. Yeah. She's so on top of it. She's very good. She's been advising us. But yeah, sadly, I don't know. I don't know. I can't explain. I feel very sad. I'm very confused. I don't have super high hopes that we're going to get him back, but they say that we have to keep trying for months potentially before we get them back if we get them back. So anyway, yeah, man,

we are just so heartbroken about this. You know how much I love this cat, Jordan, and my whole family loves this cat. Now all of our listeners love this cat because of the story I told last year. And I don't know. I don't know if this is goodbye. I don't know if he's maybe if he died somewhere or if he found a home and somebody picked him up because he's so sweet and awesome and they have a great new cat and he's okay. Or if he's on the street, but he's scraping by, we just don't know. But yeah, my heart is very heavy and I go through periods of being extremely sad and then other periods where I'm like, you know, it's not over. We might find him. But I just want to share that with everybody because we talk about our lives on the show and you guys were so amazing the last time this

happened with Drake. And yeah, like I said, if you have any solutions whatsoever, I am all ears. So thank you in advance for that. Yeah. I'm really hoping he finds his way home, Gabe. Jen and I used to have cats. You know how awesome they are. So it's sorry. I'm just really sorry that you and your fam are going through this again and that you've had to set up a North Korea level surveillance state in your neighborhood to try and find you. Yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you. And by the way, if I seem a little down today on today's episode of my voice is weird, this is why. Is it not because you were wearing a blouse during your job interview? I'm glad you brought that up, actually, and that might have something

to do with it. Uh, yeah. A bunch of you wrote me after our April Fool's Day episode, and you told me that the silk vermilion shirt I wore to that interview with the buttons on the wrong side was almost certainly a woman's blouse. Yeah. So, yeah, in addition, I was like, I got like five of these emails. And at first I said, I know this was a man's shirt. It was just a manufacturing defect. But the more I think of it, why would there be a manufacturing defect like that?

So, yeah, in addition to wearing the worst possible suit to that interview, I was also apparently cross-dressing. So thank you. Well, thank you all for pointing that out. I think it's just fun. Every time I got one of those emails, it's like, surely other listeners have pointed this out, but I'm thinking it's a woman's blouse. I'm like, I could reply to this, but it's

way more fun for me to hit forward and send that to you again for the third time in an hour, or a fifth, you know, 13th time in an hour or whatever it is and be like, here's another guy who also thinks you're wearing a blouse. Here's another lady who knows you're wearing a blouse. It's definitely not a manufacturing defect. People who make

clothing probably make like a hundred items of that clothing per day. More. Sure. Right? They're making a thousand, sewing the buttons on a thousand blouses a day. You think that person didn't notice they were putting on the wrong side. Zero chance of that. This is, this person can do that in their sleep.

A lot of it makes sense. Like, it was a little baggy, a little flowy. Like, it was... Like, why is there so much room in the chest? Yeah. It was not a form-fitting shirt. No, it's like something Russell Brand would buy. Exactly.

You made an already embarrassing story even more humiliating guys, but I love it. So thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, got to hand it to the fans for keeping it real and roasting gave for his ridiculous attire,

which is one of our favorite past times, but that's what you get for wearing a shirt that's not just red, but vermilion. All right, doozies, even more doozies, hopefully some lighter ones too today on the show. Let's dive in. All right, so four and a half years ago,

this was in October of 2019, and this was also before I joined the show, a listener wrote in to Jordan and his old producer, Jason, with the following letter. Hello, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I recently discovered your podcast and have been absolutely binging.

I love the two-part interview with Stephen Hossin about combating, cult, mind control, but never in a million years thought I would have any practical use for it, unless a friend came at me with some cancer-curing essential oil. That was until I got a call from my little sister, saying that my mother had almost been murdered by her new boyfriend. I flew to my hometown the next day. I was able to stay for four days. We were in hiding part of the time. I nursed my mother back to health, arranged for the locks to be changed, fed her, contacted legal resources, and once we were able to return to her house, cleaned it top to bottom from the

bloody mess he made, and found evidence the police missed. During this time, I expected my mother to be scared, angry, and out for revenge, but shockingly, she defended her boyfriend in language I can only describe as having been brainwashed. She said things like, he was only like that when he was drinking, or we had such good times together. I was at my wits end that this previously strong independent woman had been trained to think like this in just a few short months. I wanted to scream. I suddenly remembered the Stephen Hassan podcast. I began using some of the tactics he described,

like asking layers and layers of questions. For example, when she discovered he had stolen money from her, I would counter, oh, did he steal when he was drunk to? I slowly chipped away at all her justifications, never screamed, never yelled, never made her feel too stupid. After four days, she was able to see that this guy was never any. good and had been manipulating her the entire time to take advantage of her. So with all my heart, thank you. Now, from what I've described, you would think that this guy has been locked up.

Yes and no. He was arrested at my mother's house after a welfare check was called, so the police saw everything, with no time for him to hide what he had done. Despite that, he was released later that night. I'm told that this is because of a new law going into effect in my state, where if someone can't afford cash bail, they just sort of get released. It's supposed to prevent grave consequences from trivial crimes like losing your job because you're stuck in jail after getting arrested for something like weed. Or attempted murder. But you know, whatever. We're working out the deal. We're ironing everything out. Jeez. He will eventually be arrested again once the DA feels their case is in order, so he won't escape the law. But my family feels seriously let down

by the Justice Department, because until then, he's free, and we have no idea where he is. He can easily try to finish what he started. What on earth can I do to try and make sure this law does not get used as a loophole for future families? Signed, taking a break from true crime podcasts. Right. So, of course, I remember this story. And Jason and my advice with Dr. Hassan's input was basically, okay, this guy's clearly dangerous, possibly slash probably a sociopath. And this is just much more than an alcohol addiction. We wanted her to get her mother into counseling, contact AARP Fraud Watch,

which is somebody who could potentially help with her identity theft and money stuff. We also wanted her to check out Dr. Hassan's webinar on combating cult mind control techniques. One idea that I thought was particularly interesting was interviewing her mom, recording it with video so that if this guy ever decides to come back into her life, you can remind her with video evidence,

like, hey, look, this is how you felt. This is what happened. He tried to kill you, et cetera. We also wanted her to consider hiring an ex-FBI investigator or a police officer who's now a private investigator to do a little bit of extra research on this guy. And one of the main ideas we talked about, which I thought was also a really good option, was going to the media with the story, warning other people about this guy, the implications of the bail thing.

Because people might not be interested necessarily like, oh, one person's story of domestic abuse, but it's like, if it's the bail thing, here's what's happening and we can't get police protection because of this bail thing. Someone who is against the bail thing from the jump for probably this reason, will jump on this. Right, exactly. So then recently, this same listener wrote in again, and she had quite the update. So she writes,

Hello, Jordan, and now Gabe. I've been waiting five years to write in with a comprehensive end to my feedback Friday situation. I implemented as much of your advice as my mother would allow back then, which, unfortunately, was not much. Two months after I wrote in, she was back with her abuser. Q three years of cyclical manipulation, violence, arrests, same-day releases, and reuniting. New York State continued to let us down again and again. Her abuser would be arrested after the domestic violence incidents that were too severe to hide,

but was often released from holding before my mother was even released from the hospital. Judge's hands were tied because New York botched bail reform by only considering poverty and not risk. insane. It was pure, unadulterated absurdity. There were witnesses to the abuse, friends, roommates, neighbors, police, none of it mattered. He even tried to burn her house down. So the fire department became aware of her address and situation. I tried the media as well, but no one would touch a bail reform story that went against the mainstream narrative that there weren't any negative outcomes or unintended consequences of bail reform. This guy is a real monster and this is so infuriating. I know we're wandering into politics here a little bit with the bail reform and the mainstream narrative

stuff, I'm not nearly educated enough to meaningfully weigh in on the nuances of all that, but I do find it frustrating that journalists wouldn't cover a story capturing the dark side of letting tons of violent people out of jail without bail. I mean, not even in the interest of overturning the reform, just in the interest of, you know, appreciating all of the effects of major policy decisions like this, especially the unintended effects. And I'm sorry to hear that. But I, I, I commend you for trying. It's just, it's an important story, and it's terrifying that nobody wants to admit that this is a problem. Throughout those three years, my two sisters and I all had different approaches to handling this crisis. I was tough love, and at times, rather mean, my middle

sister cut off mom entirely, and the youngest followed the domestic violence playbook of support, understanding, and keeping the metaphorical door open to our mother. It's all understandable. These situations are so tough. I also understand being really angry at somebody. who's just choosing to get attacked instead of... Same. I mean, just don't get me started. Yeah, I feel like I would be all three of the sisters somehow at once. She goes on, absolutely none of these approaches were effective.

I also eventually cut my mother off entirely when I became pregnant during the pandemic and had to choose the situations I could afford to stress about. I hear that. I mean, that's perfectly understandable, to say the least. Then my mother's situation came to a head when this guy succeeded in my... burning her house to the ground on his second attempt. Wow. He set it on fire with himself, my mother, my disabled grandfather, and all of their pets inside.

Oh, my God. That is horrible. Miraculously, only one cat was lost. Oh, what a terrible day for this letter to come. Oh, man, I'm already feeling sensitive about cats missing my terrible. My mother's house was a double-attached townhouse, so the neighbors on either side also had damage and fall out from the fire. this finally was enough for New York State to set bail for this guy for the very first time in 2021. It was high enough that he spent almost two years in jail before the case made it to trial.

Then, just recently, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison. For the foreseeable future, this is over. Thank God. Wow, finally. Well, first of all, I'm so glad to hear that. This maniac deserves to be behind bars. Literal multiple attempted murders on top of all the abuse. What a terrifying, despicable human being. I will say that I am bummed that you lost your cat,

and I'm also bummed that this guy didn't just die. I mean, if you want to kill yourself, go right ahead, you scumbag. Why are you taking other people with you? I mean, you're just an absolute piece of garbage. Good riddance. This must be a huge relief to you guys. I mean, the things y'all have been through. I'm also annoyed that he only got 12 years.

He tried to kill, what, four people, and multiple animals succeeded in killing one, and he burned a house to the ground and damaged the neighbor's houses, and he gets the same sentence as somebody who gets caught with a... With like cocaine or something. Cocaine. Yeah, it's unfrikan believable.

It's infuriating. Yeah. So she goes on, My sisters and I are slowly repairing our relationship with our mother, and she now has her first two grandchildren. But she suffers permanent brain damage from the beatings and will never be the grandmother. I always dreamt she would be.

Jeez. Oh, man, that is so sad. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad she's alive, but clearly the effects still linger. He stole like a huge part of not just her life, but all of their lives. Yep. Our spouses are tolerant of her, but there's zero love lost over watching their wives suffer from her life choices.

Oh, yeah. For me, a line from Gavin DeBekker's book, The Gift of Fear, puts it best, that at some point, a domestic violence victim becomes a domestic violence volunteer. Right. Yep. The ways we often collude consciously or unconsciously with predators, usually by ignoring our intuition, discounting the numerous alarm bells that go off early on with somebody dangerous. I imagine Gavin gets a decent amount of flack for saying stuff like that because it sounds like

victim blaming. Right. And I understand why people would see it that way. But I've read his book, interviewed him here on the show. I've walked away with a totally different reading of that. I don't see this as victim blaming. I actually see it as victim empowering. Right. Because what Gavin's trying to do here is push people. And he can be a little bit tough about this sometimes. I know it comes from a place of actually caring about this. He's pushing people to recognize how much agency they do have and how we still have a personal responsibility to protect ourselves from people who want to harm us.

Yeah, and that's 100% compatible with having empathy for victims and holding predators accountable, like this guy who targeted her mom for years. Right, you can be a victim and you can bear some responsibility for remaining in a dangerous situation, even if you're attacked out of the blue,

even if you had no signal someone was going to hurt you, how you respond, how you recover, what you do with that experience, that is something you have agency over. And we got to make room for both. I'm not talking about like, well, she got assaulted. Was she wearing a skirt?

That's not what I'm, you know, that's not what I'm going with this. But if you are spending years going back to somebody and bailing them out of jail for trying to kill you, there's a line that gets crossed somewhere. And sorry, I don't mean to jump on ye old soapbox, but this is a topic I'm quite passionate about, obviously. And it's a big theme on Feedback Friday.

Carry on. When I first heard that, I felt so validated because I feel like the current culture around supporting domestic violence victims strips them of any and all responsibility. My mom's abuser was a monster, but she chose this man over and over and over again, over her safety, over her children's safety, over her relationship with her children, over her father, over knowing her first grandchildren. She can't even take credit for leaving him because it was only the, the state finally setting bail that finally forced her to separate from him and slowly come out of her fog.

It's fascinating, isn't it? I might be about to contradict my little rant a moment ago, but it's an interesting question how much agency your mom truly has. Because if she's stuck around in a situation this insane for so long, she must have some very serious trauma and other qualities that made it hard. Even, I hate using this word, but maybe even impossible to see her situation clearly. and having literal brain damage from being beaten doesn't probably help either. Right. Yeah, that's what's so complex about cases like this, right? That's where the Gavin DeBacker stuff I do think has to get a little bit more nuanced in practice

because people's individual histories and the unique circumstances of their case, all of that, those really complicate the whole idea of, oh, you're simply a volunteer, you have control. I mean, you can leave if you want to. Those things are true to a point, but you also have to wonder, are we ultimately constrained by our conditioning, our biology, our gender, our society, our childhoods, whatever. There's just, there's so many angles to this. No, it's a fair point.

But yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge that, even though I obviously agree with everything our friend here is saying, because, look, if you are staying with somebody and you've got small children in the house and he's not necessarily doing anything overtly to them, which is hard, you know, small children, they're suffering too. But maybe you can't feed them or there's, you don't want to leave them alone with him because at least you can control his behavior a little bit or have it geared towards you instead of them if you're around. And you also can't survive and you don't have family members.

This woman had none of that, right? She had daughters that would have taken her in in a second. Right. She had all these other options. And she was like, eh. Right. And you're just like, oh my God, you are choosing a psychopath over your grandkids and your daughters.

At some point, it's just like, you're a moron. And I know that's not as simple as that, but I understand that's how I would feel. No, it's just such an interesting question. But also, she said that her mother wasn't like this before. She said her mom was previously, what did she say, strong and independent? Yeah. So you have to wonder what switch got flipped in her.

Was there something dormant just waiting for a predator like this to come along? Or did some other change in her life have to happen for her to be vulnerable to this guy? Yeah, that's the mystery. But it's also like, it's really hard to maintain sympathy for somebody who keeps doing that to themselves. It really is. I'm now majorly struggling with how to discuss what my family's survived. I still consider myself left of center, but having lived with the actual consequences of newfangled liberal policies has shaken my belief system to the core.

I live in a large liberal city, so when I try to discuss what my family went through with people, they either get visibly uncomfortable and purse their lips with nothing to say in defense, or they try to explain to me that my family was the exception to the rule. Basically, sorry you had to suffer for the greater good. They think my situation was a rare outlier, but stories like mine are not as uncommon as they want to believe. And it still happened, and our lived experience still matters. I'm sure those people would feel the exact same way if it was them in those shoes, right? Sorry, we just have to suffer for the greater good.

No, this is nimbism. This is not in my backyard, BS. It's like those people that say, hey, I've got dangerous people walking through my backyard and threatening me and approaching my house at all hours of the night. night who are crossing the border and everybody goes, well, you know, we're all doing the best we can. And it's like, it's my backyard that they're in, though. It's my backyard. It's my house they approach at night with a shotgun looking for food, water, and shelter, and who knows what else. It's my backyard. You live in Michigan. Of course you don't really care that much. I'm very sympathetic to that. I'm very sympathetic to that. Look, your story is very stark and it challenges the easy

narratives that justify broad legislation. What you're coming up against in those conversations is probably cognitive dissonance, maybe a lack of empathy in some cases. Most people do not like having their opinions challenged by unsettling data and not knowing what to believe. That's, it's a shame, but that's the truth. And that's true of people across the political spectrum. I'm not even talking about left right now, pro-bail, anti-bail reform. This is just a human thing and, you know, obvious flaws in that system. Right. Obviously, the only answer is to live, in the grays, right, to make room for lots of different facts and realities. And can't we all accept that all laws are imperfect and have unintended consequences? Like, that doesn't seem very

controversial to me. But yeah, sadly, that's, I guess that's hard for a lot of people. So she goes on, I also learned something through this experience that no one really talks about. You can't actually help anyone. You can give it your best shot. But if they don't want help, if they want to live in suffering, even in absurdity, there's absolutely nothing you can do, but wait for them to come to you after the worst has happened, if ever. Yeah, I feel like we talk about that all the time. All the time. Constantly.

Some would say a little too much. Like, that guy the other week who said all of our advice is always the same and easily found on Google. Shout out to that guy. Yep. This is an old feedback Friday chestnut. But yet, obviously, I totally agree with you. There's a very real limit to what we can do for other people, especially if they're

not willing. I mean, it's a tale as old as time. My situation taught me that I had to let my mom drown in the, the same. the consequences that she ultimately chose and wanted on some level. I'm still a diehard fan of the show and love Feedback Friday episodes. My only note would be that maybe after all of your amazing practical and Dark Jordan advice, sprinkle in that some people can't be helped. We are truly powerless sometimes. Yeah, I feel like we literally say that all the time, but I'm happy to remind people of that. Instead of frustrating me, this realization actually lifted a huge weight off of my

shoulders and made me feel free for the first time in a long time. Anyway, I don't know if you can call this a positive update, but it's not the worst update. No one died, the bad guys in jail, and we're all slowly healing. New York State has even rolled back some parts of bail reform to allow judges to consider risk in their rulings. I wonder how many people had to die before they got that memo. Sheesh. Interesting. I mean, look, that seems reasonable. There's got to be some middle ground between keeping people locked up because they're poor and making sure that an abusive arsonist murderer doesn't get out of jail before their victims get out of the hospital. Hello. Yeah, surely we can figure that out, right? It doesn't seem that difficult. So she wraps up.

Thank you for writing back to me all those years ago. You really helped me do all that was in my power in a situation I was rather powerless to control. Most of all, I felt seen at my darkest hour. Please keep doing such amazing work. I will be listening on the other side. Signed, breathing a sigh after my real life bout with true crime. Ooh, what a letter. What a letter. Man, I got a little bit choked up there at the end, Gabe. I don't mean to make it about us,

but when we hear how this show has played a role in y'all's lives, I'm using that word. It really does mean the world to us. We're just very touched to be part of these incredibly intense experiences that you guys go through. And to know that you felt acknowledged and empowered by our response, I didn't know that at the time, but it really does mean a lot to us. I don't actually have a ton more to add here.

Talked a lot during the letter. This remarkable letter also kind of speaks for itself. But we wanted to share that update with everybody. And also because the story captures so many of the themes that we come back to again and again on the show. The importance of taking responsibility for life. Owning your agency, finding the things you can control, and at the same time, recognizing the limit of your influence,

knowing when to keep fighting, when to surrender, making room for different opinions, multiple perspectives, not settling on easy answers or ignoring data or ideas that are uncomfortable and inconvenient, dealing with trauma, watching somebody you love deal with trauma, allowing them to make terrible choices repeatedly, sometimes even potentially fatal choices. It's almost like this story was written by Chat GPT to bring to life every concept and philosophy we explore on this show. So, but I do want to say this.

I am so sorry that you went through this experience. I'm sorry that your mom went through this experience. what this guy did to you is it's so far beyond the pale. It's so extreme, so horrifying. Most people will never understand what it's like to be targeted by a psychopath in this way. And I'm just so sorry that this happened to your family. But I'm especially sorry for you personally in a lot of ways because you had to stand by and watch your mom continue to stay with this guy

when he was literally determined to kill her. And yes, that is absolutely tragic for her. She could have been murdered. In a way, part of her has been killed off, right? I mean, she's got brain damage and trauma. But she could have gotten out of it if she wanted to her. At least she could have freaking tried. But you couldn't, you and your sisters and your whole family,

you couldn't make her do this. You were, like you said, powerless. And that's a unique pain to be on the sidelines, to not be able to influence the person who needs to make a change to change and to not have power, really. Over a system that allows monsters like this to continue hurting people, that's a recipe for a kind of sadness, a rage, a helplessness that is just awful. But it sounds to me like you moved through those feelings with a lot of grace, a ton of patience,

a ton of compassion and understanding, as well as some crucial boundaries, especially during your pregnancy, and that is tremendous. You're a poster child for doing the thing we talk about all the time, which is surrendering to what's happening, inviting in the grief, working through those feelings in your own way. Sometimes when we're a poster child, you know, say that, and I know we say it a lot, there's a little voice in my head going, but how? How do we explain how to do that? Do people really believe that's possible? And your letter is a case study in doing exactly that. And I'm sure it was beyond hard. I'm sure you had your moments. I'm not gassing you up like, hey, you were total Buddha. You crushed this three-year-long cycle of abuse and almost

homicide. If I'd been in your shoes, I would have been a mess. I would have called Sammy the and been like, how do I get this guy's legs broken and the message to him very, very clearly? Right. Honestly, that's not a terrible solution, I guess, situation like this. But overall, you did great. Hashtag dark Jordan. Yes. Lawyer or not your lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.

No, this is not legal advice. Hiring a mafia enforcer to break this man's legs and threaten his life if he comes back is not legal advice. In fact, it's the opposite of legal advice. Overall, you did great. I'm sure your sisters went through their own processes too, and maybe those were different. And that's fair, I suppose. I also love this thing you said about recognizing that you had to let your mom live with the

consequences of her decision. You know, you had to accept that staying with this maniac was what she wanted on some level. Again, I do think it's more nuanced than that. It's so hard to know what your mom did and didn't want, whether she was even capable of wanting in the way that a high functioning person is. But accepting that powerlessness at a certain point, making some peace with that, that is so profound. And it's so hard because, as we also talk about a lot, that can feel a lot like giving up. But it's not giving up. You can still act. You can still hope. You can still keep the door open to your mom. You can still intervene when necessary. But knowing what you truly have control over and what you don't have control over, man, I don't know. The older I get,

the more I realize how alarming it is to recognize just how little we do have control over in life. I think that's wisdom. So I'm not surprised that you felt liberated by that. You said you felt like you shrugged off a huge burden, it actually makes me wonder how much of the heaviness we tend to feel in very stressful situations. You know, how much of that is about the stressful situation itself and how much of it is about the belief that we hold, that we can control it, that we have to control it. I don't know. That's just something I want to sit with and think about, especially as I go through this manhunt or cat hunt for Drake, because it's like, I can only do so much and so much of it is just a big question mark, you know? Yeah, look, I feel you man. And like you,

said, you still act, you still try, you don't give up, but you can also take on more responsibility than is actually helpful. Sometimes that responsibility is just, it's just not yours. And I'm speaking more about forcing someone to save themselves from a literal predator than finding your cat, of course, but I'm sure that idea applies in some way to both. Man, what a thing your mom put you through. Once somebody says you're doing this to your children, how do you not wake up from that? Let's say you value yourself at zero. Don't you value your kids and your grandkids? What, like, I just can't right my mind around this. I'm glad it's all over for now anyway. I hope this guy doesn't somehow get out early to overcrowding or whatever and come back for your mom. I doubt it, given what he's done.

I really hope this is over for you guys. Try to protect your mom however you can, especially now that you know she's so compromised. I would make sure you know when his parole hearings are and show up to those with a statement about how he tried to kill your mom and kept coming back and burned down the house and yada, because the parole board, they might go, oh, domestic violence, arson, okay. But if you come in and you're like, this man has tried to kill our whole family so many times, they might be like, uh, letting this guy out? Uh, where's that weed dealer? Let's let that guy out. He's, you know, come on. This stuff matters. I also hope this dude doesn't write her from prison every day, like, I'm so sorry. And then 10 years later, when he gets out early again,

due to overcrowdy, she picks him up and they start this BS all over again. I would just try to stay close to your mom, keep reminding her of how much better off she is without him in her life. And thank you for sharing your story with us, with all of us. We are very relieved for you, or we're super proud of you, sending you, your mom, and your sisters a big hug and wishing you all the peace and healing that you deserve. You know what else is burning the house down, Gabriel. The deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here.

All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work in a big company where we do some lobbying and public affairs for our employer. Some years ago, we were concerned about an environmental regulation that could become too

strict. My boss started to gather some documentation and raised questions. that were legitimate in a scientific debate. Then, COVID struck. And she started discussing the efficacy of vaccines, the real severity of COVID, and the fact that all of the lockdowns were organized by Big Pharma. Now she talks about the fact that countries have no real power

and that everything is organized by the United Nations, which is a tool for private interests, namely Bill Gates and BlackRock. Then, a month ago, she showed me a post on Twitter about children being sex trafficked in a synagogue. When I asked her what the sources were, she said that newspapers are muted and not allowed to cover this kind of news. She shared this, by the way, even though she knows I'm Jewish.

I'm no doctor, but I have an autistic child myself, and I suspect that my boss has undiagnosed autism. This makes her make some very inappropriate remarks, but it also gives her a dedication to every detail that makes her a very respected professional in our field. What should I do here? How can I state that I don't agree with my boss's conspiratorial claims? Signed, trying to clap back when my boss talks smack without catching flack for an attack on or lack of facts.

Oh, interesting. All right. Well, we've taken letters about conspiratorial friends, conspiratorial partners, conspiratorial family members, but I don't think we've ever heard about how to deal with a conspiratorial boss. So this is a tricky one. Because first of all, the power dynamics between an employee and a boss are already complicated. If you clap back at her like, hey, your sources are crap, your opinions are dodgy, don't share this nonsense bullshit with me, that couldn't obviously infect your working relationship.

You know, she could turn on you, she could view you as one of the, you're one of the sheeple, buying into mainstream nonsense. She could withdraw some of her support or respect for you, which is a risk. Also, it sounds clearly she struggles with reading the room. And that might not entirely be her fault to your earlier point. obviously I have no idea if she's on the spectrum, but based on what you've shared, she probably struggles with social cues, with consistently empathizing with people, and possibly a slight sprinkle of anti-Semitism. It's hard to say, but you never know. So what feels personal and loaded,

it might just be her getting pumped about these zany ideas and just not realizing how they come across to other people, which does not make it okay, but it does make it somewhat understandable and not as personal as it feels. But then you guys work in lobbying, public affairs. It sounds like you're dealing with nuanced issues that don't have simple answers, like that environmental regulation. And those topics do deserve a certain degree of skepticism and independent thinking, which your boss is clearly willing to engage in. Now, being skeptical in a healthy way, that's obviously different from straight up conspiratorial thinking. The former is principled and rigorous and has some kind of standards. It has some guardrails. The latter, you know, it's reckless. It's

It's fuzzy, it's chaos. It's these rabbis that are pedophiles based on some post on frickin' Twitter with zero evidence as opposed to, hmm, okay, this whole narrative around how lockdowns were necessary. That isn't as black or white as the government said before. The data's mixed, school closures, yada, totally different conversations. But I can also appreciate a boss in this space who's not super eager to buy into easy answers or mainstream narratives because that might, in fact, be part of effective lobbying and managing public affairs. And to your point, it might also be part of why she's so good at it, her dedication

to every detail. It's probably in some ways a superpower. Although that's one of the ironies of the story, right? She's obsessive about details at work. She's so thorough. But then when it comes to stories about pedophiles and big pharma and private interests, she doesn't seem as rigorous about the sources. She's being, sounds like, willfully blind to the specifics, which is precisely what conspiracy theorists do. Yeah, it's a strange contradiction. You don't usually find those two tendencies in the same person. Right, right. But that's got to speak to a part of her that wants to buy end of this stuff, right? Right, yeah, makes her feel smarter or something like that, or she finds community in it and she's otherwise lonely because she's kind of a weirdo who can't

read the room, right? So who knows really why this is, whether it's her personal history or her values or just because she finds the stuff entertaining? So look, if this were your friend, your partner, your parent, my advice would be to ask them open, curious, non-judgmental questions, and slowly get them to consider all the reasons they hold these beliefs. But because this is your boss, a person who holds power over you, who has a unique relationship with you, which means you have less stakes and less responsibility to change her mind, in my opinion, and also somebody who doesn't seem particularly open to changing her mind,

I'm actually leaning towards the opposite course of action here. My feeling is that your boss's opinions are kind of none of your business, and you have more to gain by not engaging with her on this type of stuff. Now, the hard part is that she's making it your business by showing you freaking crap ola about pedo rabbis and how Bill Gates invented COVID-19 or whatever. And I'm sure that's hard for you, both as a responsible employee and as a Jewish person who's being shown just clearly anti-Semitic nonsense. It's really hard when somebody in a position of authority says stuff that's distasteful,

irresponsible, sometimes even hurtful. So I'm not saying you don't have good reasons to want to speak up. I'm just saying that on a practical level, I'm just saying that on a practical level, I'm just not sure it's worth it. What I would do instead is just basically ignore it, draw some respectful boundaries around your time, and I pin that on work rather than on your personal beliefs. So for example, if you guys are in a meeting about a new lobbying initiative and she goes, oh, by the way, did you see that post on X about how Pfizer executives funded a lab in Wuhan that invented the virus so they could prop up their stock price because three of the board members

are Jews and they play golf with Bill Gates and the lizard people, something, whatever, I would just be like, wow, crazy. But listen, I got a lot of work to do. really want to make sure I get this done for you. So let's close the loop on the lobbying stuff and then I am going to go back to my office and put my head down. That's harder for her to argue with. And it'll communicate to her that your top priority at work at the office is actually, you know, doing work. What a concept, right? You're not shutting down the conversation because you disagree. You're shutting it down because you're disciplined. Just make sure you don't like roll your eyes and put a little judgey stank on that script if you use it. Not that she would pick up on that. But you got to resist the

urge to blend in the subtext. Just keep it neutral, keep it professional. But if this ever becomes untenable for you, or if your boss ever tips over into something more problematic, like you realize she just actually doesn't like Jews, she's anti-Semitic, she's openly denigrating Jewish people in meetings or attacking you in some way, then I'd consider speaking up, either addressing it directly with her or talking to HR about it, and document all this stuff. If she sends you a text and it's like, Jewish rabbi sex trafficking, screenshot, put it in an album on your phone, be doing, done with it. Email comes in about this, and by the way, if you've seen this COVID-night screenshot or take a picture of your computer screen on your personal phone, not on work equipment, and save it,

and just file it. And then if you check at the end of the year when she's finally going full kook and you've got 400 screenshots in there, now you've got a case. Talk to HR about it. It's a different problem. I'm not sure you're there yet. Dodge this stuff. That's your best bet. It takes a lot of grace and discipline to do, and you're probably going to have to do some heavy breathing in the break room sometimes. But it's worth it. Good luck. And yeah, we'll see you at our annual Lizard People Jewish Illuminati meeting inside the Hollow Earth. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes,

your neighbors are eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your brother is obsessed with goats. That one last week, Gabriel. That was so good. It was, it was, Bad. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email. No, I'm not missed. All right. Next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 33 years old and I'm currently fighting stage four cancer. This is actually my second time with cancer. Oh, man, 33 years old. That's rough. So sorry.

When I was a young 20-something, I took out two school loans at 14.75%. and 14.25% interest rates. And I can't afford them. I have many regrets. Then, recently, I was denied total and permanent disability by my student loan provider, Sally May, and their third party, Minnesota Life, because I work. But I work because I want to keep my insurance.

They have a program that pays for 100% of my meds, and the meds normally cost $4,000 a month. Also, it would take two years to get on government insurance, which would be a death sentence for me. Plus, I can work. I hear that I need to get a lawyer to fight a battle with Sally Mae, which will take at least two years

and to not give up on this while also fighting for my life. I'm hopeful about finding a program that helps cancer patients afford attorneys, but I'm feeling overwhelmed. I just want to have this heavy financial load off my shoulders. I'm feeling frustrated with Uber capitalism.

These loan companies can do sketchy stuff and get away with it. They've had many lawsuits and lost cases, but they're still in business. Why don't private student loan providers have to provide programs for repayment for people with disabilities who don't qualify right away for permanent or total disability loan forgiveness? Why are private loan companies not regulated? What should I do? Signed, looking for answers while I battle two cancers.

Listen, you godless communist. No, man, this is, seriously, what a letter and what a thing you're going through. let me start by saying, I am so sorry you're going through cancer again, by the way, and that you're in this absolutely awful position of having to choose between taking care of your health and taking care of debt, which, by the way, I can't believe

that those loans are 14 plus percent interest. I feel like back in the day, mine were at least 10% lower than that. I think I had a three-something and maybe a five-something together, and I had a lot of debt. It's shocking that they can make student loan interest rates as high as my credit card.

It's just unbelievable. It's insane. I don't mean to get into politics here, but hearing your story, it's just hard not to comment on the state of this country and to be fair, the dark side of capitalism everywhere, even though I am, to be clear, a big believer in it is the single best engine for upward mobility in history, capitalism, that is. But the fact that there are people out there who have to choose between getting their life-saving medication for cancer and not going bankrupt is literally insane.

Yeah. And it is not okay. In our Canadian show fans and our European listeners are just, every time they hear something like this, they're just blown away when they hear how much ambulance rides cost or how much medication costs out of power. It's just, it's wild and it's not getting better. That's the other problem. Yeah, no one's doing much about it. Yeah, those listeners are shaking their heads right now as the image of a dumpster fire with a bald eagle flying over plays in their mind, no doubt. No kidding.

And I'm not necessarily getting on a soapbox for socialized medicine or student loan forgiveness. I actually have quite a few opinions on that that might surprise you. All of these solutions have their upsides and they're very real downsides. So when we take a letter like this, it just makes the impact of this stuff so vivid. And my heart absolutely breaks for people, especially hardworking people like our friend here, who have to fight stage four cancer and work a full-time job and keep Sally frickin' May off their back so their wages are going to get garnished and their credit score is going to tank. This is late capitalism in a nutshell.

It's just sort of horrifying to see this. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to defer these loans. In fact, it's also criminal of the interest rate, but I kind of already covered that. And I know you're not asking for a pity party, and I appreciate that, but my God, the things you are going through right now. So first of all, I don't know why student loan companies

aren't better regulated. I don't know why they don't offer accommodations for certain disabilities, like, you know, fighting cancer for your life. Maybe John Oliver knows the answer. That's a topic he'd rail on for 20 minutes until we forget about it and move on to the next horror show. What I do know is that you have to work with what you've been given, you have to prioritize, and you've got to do one thing at a time. So the first order of business, if you can't hit pause on the debt and you truly can't get on government insurance immediately, you've got to prioritize your health.

Cancer before Sally Mae, obviously. Because if you make decisions at the expense of your health, what is the point? your job right now is to get healthy, to stick around on earth instead of under it as long as possible. So that either means keeping your job and having to continue paying these loans as best you can, or it means quitting your job and getting on government insurance and getting a moratorium on the debt. I am a little surprised to hear that it would take two years to get on government insurance. I know those programs can be a hot mess, but I would triple confirm that that's really the case, because that sounds insane to me.

I have friends who've gotten government health care. they have to pick up the phone and advocate for themselves all the time, but they were able to get on pretty quickly and get care. Maybe I'm being naive, I don't know, but then I'd rather you have private insurance through your company, and you said you can work, and I wonder if working is also giving you some much needed structure, community, distraction through all this. So those are other good reasons to go that route. Second, I would definitely go the lawyer route and fight Sally Mae on this. I hate that this would be another expense, but I do wonder if there are attorneys who's specialize in this. Maybe they got the template they send to student loan companies ready to go. Maybe they

know exactly what to say, how to say it, which department it's got to be said to, and it actually wouldn't cost you all that much. I don't know. I want to see you stick it to these predatory companies that don't have a freaking checkbox on their website for sorry bro, I'm fighting stage four cancer. I need an extension or maybe a deferral or whatever they call it. I can't believe it. Right. Also, a lawyer might be able to advise you on whether it would be possible to discharge this debt possibly through bankruptcy. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but we've been talking about bankruptcy a lot on the show recently because we got a lot of letters about it. It is an option. Now, that used to be really hard, but we did some reading on this. And those student loan reforms that

the Biden administration recently made, so one of the big initiatives was making it easier for borrowers who are experiencing hardship to discharge their student loans in bankruptcy. Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy as saying, hey, I have stage four cancer, so I can't pay. Apparently, you would need to engage in an adversarial proceeding, which is basically a lawsuit, against the student loan company, where you would have to prove that you're experiencing what's called undue hardship, which, by the way, is an extremely difficult standard to meet. We read up on that too. The criteria for undue hardship are, A, demonstrating an inability to maintain a minimal standard of living, B, persistent financial difficulties, and C, a good faith effort to repay the loans, which you might

be able to prove with an attorney's help, although keeping your job, I don't know, that might already disqualify you from this option because you're not, you know, on the street, living in your car, in massive credit card debt or whatever, but you could be, and you have been paying these loans faithfully up till now, which counts for something. But then we all know these lenders have a lot of power, they have a ton of resources, so I'm afraid you will have to prepare for a fight. On the bright side, though, toward the end of last year, the Justice Department released some data on these cases. And they say, said that of the ones that were resolved, 99% of them ended in either a full or a partial discharge.

Now, the question, of course, is how many of these cases actually end up getting resolved? Right. And while you do all that, I would consider starting a go-fund me to help raise some money. And again, don't get me started on what it says about our system that a person with a full-time job needs to start a freaking crowdfunding campaign to stay alive. This pitch breaks my heart, but people do it all the time and it does work. even if you raise four, five, eight grand, it could be huge for you, because what is that, a two-month buffer on your medication, as they said in the letter, according to the pricing each month.

If you do this, I'd take the time to really tell your story in the campaign description, maybe make a little video, post it. You basically want to say, hi, I have to work to keep my medication. I can work. I'm happy to work, but I'm somehow in this impossible situation where I have to decide whether to quit my job and go on government insurance so I don't die from cancer or keep working and have my money go straight to Sally May at, frankly, exorbitant interest rate. So I'm humbly and gratefully opening myself up to your help.

I've had a few friends over the years do this, and I always gladly donated. I hate that it comes to this, but it is an option, and you have a very compelling story to tell. She does. And speaking of your compelling story, I would also approach, you know, taking a cue from Q1 here, a few journalists and see if they would be interested in covering your story. I know this isn't exactly news. People have been talking about the student loan crisis for a while now. but hanging an article about the horrors of the student loan situation on a story like this,

I think that would make it extremely interesting and relevant to people. Seriously, it doesn't get much more sympathetic than this. It's not like, oh, I was an art major and I took out $200,000 worth of loans and I can't find a job. Wham, never going to buy a house. This is like, I'm literally dying. This is not my fault. And you want three out of my $4,000 a month because of interest payments, like get bent. Your story makes these loan companies look like, frankly,

total bastards. It's just a horrifying example of what's gone wrong and maybe your attorney can use an article that gets written about you to force the student loan providers to take this seriously and respond immediately. So I would send a few brief pitches to a handful of reporters who have written about the student loan crisis before. See what they say. They might also, by the way, have ideas or resources for how to fight back because they're plugged in and they know what's up. Right. These journalists know this world inside it out. They tend to be well connected. My last thought for you is this. I know this debt is very real. The hit to your bank account is very real, but it's not as real as cancer. So again, prioritize your health above all else, physical and mental. Do not log in and check

your Sally Mae Balance every three days. That's going to drive you nuts. Do what you have to do and then tuck it away. Keep coming back to what you need to do, what matters most, which is obviously getting well and staying alive. Again, I am deeply sorry you're in this boat. It makes me incredibly angry. This is the kind of story that really gives urgency to voting and calling your congressman and stuff like that, you've been dealt a really crappy hand and you don't deserve it. But in a situation like this, you can only do what you can do. And you keep showing up and you keep taking care of yourself. We're sending you a huge, non-dischargeable hug. And we are rooting for you every step of the way. You know, if this were me, your ass ain't getting paid until I'm well.

You better hope I get well, because if I croak, you're never getting a dime. These companies act like getting cancer is the same as somebody who can't stop shopping online for handbags or something. It's like, hey, you should have budgeted for this. What are you talking about? It's so bad that it's almost hard to believe there's not somebody at Sally Mae who's like, no, no, no, my job is to decide if this person should get a deferral or not. And cancer is like on, like medical stuff is at the top of the list. I almost feel like it just has to be that way. I mean, isn't this why people are up in arms about this industry? I mean, I know nothing significant seems to be happening, but like the rage against student loan providers has never been higher. And, you know, the Biden administration has

made a big thing out of these student loan reforms. And I know people are critical of them and it's complicated. And some people think that it's not the right approach. I don't know enough about it to opine on that. But I mean, I get it. I get why people are trying to reach for solutions wherever they can find them because people like this are suffering because they don't have a simple option to give you nine months so that you can stay alive. It's crazy. Yeah. This person's not even asking for her loans to be forgiven. She just is like, hey, can I maybe not pay this until I get rid of cancer? Exactly. Because the interest rate is making it so I can't pay for my chemotherapy. It's like, how is that even remotely controvert? Like if you, there should literally be a form you file to make

this possible. It's unbelievable. You know what's more fun than navigating the Byzantine bureaucracy of American healthcare, Gabriel? Enjoying the fine products and services that support this show. I got to say, Jordan, that bar is very low. Oh, yeah. It's unlike Sally Mays, interest rates. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are all in one place, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you can't find the code. Shoot me an email, Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. I am happy to surface the code

for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Hi, Gabe, and Dark Jordan. Hmm. So when people address this like that, does that mean they only want to hear from Dark Jordan? No light, you know, legal above board, appropriate Jordan advice? No, I think it means they want the most psycho advice you can possibly give them. Good.

All right. I'm here for it. Although, actually, I don't think that this really will apply to this letter, so it's funny that he wrote that. Oh, bummer. But anyway, he writes, I recently invented, for lack of a better term, an object which doesn't serve much functional purpose, but is really funny to behold. My prototypes have been met with nothing but boisterous laughter at how ridiculous and silly it is. It's a for novelty purposes only kind of thing that you would see at Spencer's.

Spencer's for anyone who doesn't know is a novelty store that sells like gag gifts. Right, it's the place you go when you forgot to buy somebody a gift and you have to be at their party on like an hour. Exactly. Or you don't know them very well or you don't like them that much. so you buy them a, I don't know, like a pen that shocks you or a rubber chicken or something like that. So he goes on, I could absolutely sell these and make money. But this is a simple object that could be easily copied, so I'd like to have some level of legal protection, though my faith in enforcing it is low. I have a moral dilemma with this as well because of the plastic involved in making the thing.

How do I approach an IP attorney with this idea without looking insane? If they don't laugh, is that a bad sign? Does the world really need more plastic trash that serves no functional purpose? Or is being a funny product that brings people joy purpose enough? Even if I know it'll end up in a landfill at some point. Signed the conflicted creator, wondering whether to cater to appreciators, when one day my product will probably end up in a crater. Oh, good questions.

First of all, I do think it's very cool you invented a product, even if it is like a penis-shaped straw for Bachelorette party. or whatever. What do you call it a strildo? I don't know. It's, I'm always amazed when people invent something. It's just so, it's interesting. It shows a lot of initiative and creativity, and you're actually getting good feedback just in the form of these laughs, which is very much the point. And that's got to feel good. And the fact that you're confident you can sell these things and make some money, I think that's brilliant, dude. I mean, who knows? This could be a very real side hustle. It could even become your main hustle at some point. This is how these things start.

So yes, definitely talk to an IP attorney about patenting your product and or trademarking your brand. I wouldn't worry about looking insane because of the product itself. These attorneys have helped clients with all kinds of products. Yours might not even be the craziest. Remember, somebody invented the pocket p-pity. You're there to talk to them about a business and money. You're paying them.

They're going to be psyched for the work. They're not going to judge you for your silly product. And no, I don't necessarily think it's a bad sign if they don't laugh. God knows, lawyers, we're not exactly known for our sense of humor and or personality at all, right? I could see a competent IP attorney being super dry and literal about all this and taking good care of you. So it's not a deal breaker. It's more like if you're going to have to interact with your lawyer a lot and talk about the ins and outs of the product for hours over the course of years, you might want to work with somebody who has a little bit of personality just because it's more enjoyable. Although if your lawyer is going to be an integral part of the business and super involved in the launch of your company,

maybe them laughing is kind of a signal of how much they appreciate your vision and how invested they are in your ideas of how much vision do you have for, well, you know, on that level, maybe look for lawyers who appreciate what you've invented. That's always a plus. But I wouldn't write off a good lawyer if he doesn't double over laughing at your breast-shaped pillow or whatever, which is a real thing, by the way, that you can get at those novelty stores, which I just looked up because I was curious, not because I own three of them in different colors, but because. Because they're funny. No, no, no. Uh-huh. We got it. Yeah, those are Gabe's favorite pillows when he stays over. No, totally. Can't get a good night's rest at Jordan's house without a polyester nipple in my ear.

Now, about the plastic thing, I really do appreciate that you're being thoughtful about that. I mean, we all should. There's definitely something to be said for being conscientious about the things we put out into the world. But my feeling there is, look, if you can do anything to minimize the amount of plastic that this product requires, I would do that. it's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the problem, but every bit helps, right? You're clearly a clever guy. You know, maybe you can figure out the minimum amount of plastic you need to manufacture this thing and that'll help you sleep at night. And I hear you that this thing serves no functional purpose. But in another way, it does. It fulfills the function of making people laugh, of bringing them together, of helping somebody say, I don't know, hey, I love you, but I absolutely didn't think about

what to get you for your birthday. So here's a lobster bit. with Steve Bouchemmy's face on it or whatever. I don't know what it is. You invented. I have no idea. I'm so curious what he made, Jordan. I really do wonder, I don't know. I'm grasping at straws.

Oh, yeah. Well, indeed, penis-shaped straws. Strildos, if you will. Exactly. Grasping at stroll-dos. New Feedback Friday catchphrase. So does the world need more plastic trash that serves no profound purpose? Probably not.

The world doesn't need a lot of things. The last avatar movie, I would argue, among other things. But the waste that your company is going to create, it's kind of a drop in the ocean, isn't it? And I know that mentality is kind of flawed. We all have to do our part. But not putting your product out there isn't going to stop landfills from filling up with plastic. Not at this stage of your company. You're a very small operation at this point. And I think you have more to gain by putting a really cool thing out into the world and seeing if there's a real business here, then by not doing it at all for environmental reasons. At this stage, anyway. I agree. I love his thoughtfulness, but he's literally a guy shipping a couple hundred units of, know, like a tiny doll or something. Meanwhile, Coca-Cola is selling tens and tens of billions of bottles and cans over a year. So it's like, what are we talking about here? So I say, go for it, man. The world needs laughter, too, more than teeth rotting soda, I'd argue. But definitely keep being as thoughtful and responsible as you can along the way. You can do both of these. Maybe you could be the world's

first sustainable strido, you know? And good luck. Send us a couple sustainable bags full of your product when you can as well. I would love to see what you're up to. I bet you were Jordan could use a new pocket. So please do send this. Mine has a lot of miles on it after all. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out our episode with Susan Casey on Ocean stuff. All things, Ocean's super interesting. And stay tuned this Sunday, skeptical Sunday coming up on porn, internet porn specifically, but I don't know how specific

we need to get. Is there any other kind of porn these days? Probably not. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the thinkific platform at six-minute networking.com.

The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Every time I talk with people about this, it's like, oh, I know you say it every time. I should do it. Just dive in and do the first couple. Just the first one or the second one will be life-changing enough for you and it'll get you in there. And it won't take a ton of time. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Six-minute networking.com.

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Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Sometimes my advice is actually illegal. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

For example, if you know somebody who is dealing with a domestic abuse situation and they can't get the other person out and they're banging their head against the wall, I think Q1 from this week's episode is definitely something you could share with them. There's a lot of takeaways from that. And I think it would be very helpful for other people in that situation. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three-piece velvet suit. Because why not? Because why not? So this guy is, you know, he's really drunk and is clearly looking for a...

fight and he is with his girlfriend and all his adrenaline is kind of, you know, up here and he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at or what's your problem or something? In that situation, you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything because you're on the back foot and they've got power or yeah, I'm looking at you, what's your problem? Because either way, you're going to get hit. But you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what? And I said, oh, the wall outside of my house isn't four foot high.

And I lived in Spain, the walls that were quite high, but here, they're tiny, I mean, and there's nothing. So he then, he just went, oh, fuck! And started crying. His girlfriend walked off, and he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There had been some fight, and weirdly that I'm giving him advice. I was talking to him. friend of mine about this thing and he um he was an artist and used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London and there were always these kind of like gangs on one side of the

road so he'd always cross over away from them of course they'd always see that and it's always this horrible uncomfortable intimidating thing so we spoke about it and then the next night he crossed over the road to them and uh said good evening as he walked past them and of course they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange yeah i don't touch he's crazy he's just weird yeah um Who wants to see a magic trick? For an inside look at the levers in our own brain, alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists,

check out episode 150 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format.

Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love,

and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.