The Jordan Harbinger Show - 991: Should You Coexist with a Manchild Narcissist? | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

Should you endure a toxic marriage for the sake of your son's relationship with his father, or run for the hills while you can? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: You're contemplating leaving your narcissistic addict husband due to his poor treatment of you and your child, but you feel trapped financially and concerned about your son losing his father. Should you try to reconcile and accept him the way he is, or run for the hills while you can? Betrayed by a lifelong friend who used you in an eBay scam and left you financially accountable to his victims, you found closure years later at a party by forgiving him and letting go of your own negative emotions about the situation. But you can't help but wonder if you should've just punched him in the face. Did you do the right thing? After years of caring for your late mother's boyfriend like family, you feel disrespected when you're labeled as a vendor at a granddaughter's wedding, highlighting the family's lack of appreciation for your efforts. Are you still expected to bring a gift, or should you send them an invoice the day after the wedding for taking care of their grandfather? Your close relationship with your daughter's ex-boyfriend, now reformed from the issues that facilitated their breakup, causes tension with your married daughter, forcing you to choose between transparency or secrecy to preserve your bond. Should you continue to "sneak around" with your daughter's ex, or just be honest and let the chips fall where they may? You're a Canadian mom worried about your 18-year-old daughter's real-life meetup with the 23-year-old American boyfriend she met online. How can you ensure her safety (on the off-chance he might be a human trafficker or drug fiend) without damaging your relationship by being seen as overbearing? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/991 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors:...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer Guru of Goodwill, generously granting golden guidance. Gabriel Mizrahi. Wow, alliteration on point today. You know how we do. Got to hit those consonants way too many times, baby. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from hostage negotiators to Russian spies and drug traffickers, astronauts, CEOs, generals, and tech

luminaries. On Fridays, though, we share stories, offer advice, weave together the OMG and the LOL. And of course, mercilessly roast Gabriel for, well, first of all, cross-dressing for the most important conversations of his life, apparently. I am never going to live that one down. No, first of all, we got like a hundred emails about it and DMs and link. LinkedIn messages. So no, as long as my name is on this podcast, the Vermillion shirt, or shall I say, blouse, shall live on forever. Do you still have that thing, by the way? Oh, no, no, no, no. It's long gone. Probably keeping a very happy lady warm somewhere in the world. There's a librarian somewhere that's like, I just love this. I can't believe I found this. It could will. Some lady wearing it to her knitting circle is so happy with this purchase. What a philanthropist do you are. I hope you washed off all the existential dread sweat out of it before. donating it to good, the shingle sweat before donating it to Goodwill. No, I left all the shingle pustules in the when I gave it to Goodwill. It's funny, somebody wrote me asking if the wool suit that I wore on top of it was also a man's,

or was that also a woman's? I can tell you with 100% certainty that the suit was a man's, and I know that because my panty hose underneath it fits so well. There's no way that that was for another gender, but thank you for checking. I appreciate that. Oh, Jordan, another funny thing happened this week I wanted to tell you. So the other day I was putting on my bracelets, you know, the ones, the yoga cult guru. Yeah, those like BDSM bands or whatever that I see you wearing sometimes. I don't know what they are.

Same set as those bracelets, yes. So I was pulling it closed and I have to do with my teeth, you know? How on brand is that? But okay. I was pulling it closed with my teeth and the band. snapped and all the beads went flying everywhere, so I had to go take it to my bead shop to get it repaired. Your bead shop? Yeah, I got a bead guy. You got a bead guy. You got to have a bead shop when you live this lifestyle. Of course, wow. You have a bead guy. So I brought it to my favorite bead shop in Santa Monica.

It's this place called Bitas on Ocean Park, and it's owned by this super sweet couple. Shannon and Mike, they sell beads and gems and jewelry and incense, or you can sit there and you can make your own piece and they'll help you and they also host you know like parties birthday parties and bachelor parties events basically i love this place it's like heaven on earth as long as they don't claim anything is magical i'm i'm fine with it but i'm still wrapping my head around the fact that my co-host has a a bead guy beid guy's uh bead guy's uh ah bead people plural excuse me so the last time my braces broke shannon fixed it and we sat there together while she repaired it and we had this really cool chat about life and her and beads old dissertation and how she got into beads

Yeah, and I was like, okay, you're officially my bead person. No, I love you guys. So anyway, I dropped the bracelet off last week, and then a few days ago, I picked it up. And Mike, Shannon's husband, was like, hey, I knew your name sounded familiar. I listened to Feedback Friday. Oh, no way. He's a show fan. That's awesome.

I feel 1% more worse about making fun of the fact that they're your bead people since the show fans, but I stand by the rest of it. So cool, though, right? And they were so nice. They actually repaired the bracelet free of charge, which was so kind of them. They didn't have to do that because they had done it once before and they stand by their work 100%. Oh. And then I bought like $30 worth of incense for my trip to Brazil.

I'm leaving on soon and they have the coolest fragrances. I never heard of some of these scents. They're like fragrances I didn't even know existed. Yeah, you're just not doing yourself any favors in the cliche department, Gabe. But I can get behind good incense. The problem is there's so much bad incense that smells like, you know, bathroom air fresheners and you can just tell it's toxic. But the good stuff is quite nice. They have the good stuff.

They had the bougie stuff. Anyway, I'm hearing myself say all this, and I'm just like, I deserve all the roasts. You do, yeah. I know. But anyway, just to say, if you live in L.A. and you need to repair a bracelet or, I don't know, you want to buy some cool gems or you need a gift for somebody, Bitas in Santa Monica. This place is awesome. And shout out to Shannon Leonard and Michael Kang. Thank you so much for listening to the show.

You guys are so sweet. In addition to being amazing at what you do, you guys are just adorable and super sweet. And thank you for sending me off to Brazil with a new bracelet. and enough funky incense to earn an extra invasive pat down at airport security, because it's going to be dink in the TSA last. Yeah, it's going to be quite the blend. Happy to have you in the show fam, Mike slash Mike and Shannon. Thanks for keeping my co-host bebracleted.

So, hey, before we dive in, I also remembered a funny story this week. It's maybe a little slightly different type of adventure. Years ago, when I was in my 20s, I took this ride to Vegas. It's called Zim Ride, and it was this app. Oh, you remember? Okay, because I was like, nobody used this. That kind of became Lyft, right? Or it was Lyft or something?

It did, yeah. So for people who don't know, it was a ride share service where people would catch rides with other people from one city to another. And Zim Ride, it became Lyft. I don't know how they made money. I don't remember him paying me through the app. Maybe he did. And then Lyft sold Zim Ride and now it doesn't exist anymore. So I put my car on there and I'm like, hey, I'm going to Vegas on this date.

Like, maybe this will work, you know, that I was to drive by myself. and he paid for half the gas, or maybe it was all the gas, I forgot. Wait, you matched with a guy? So you matched with a guy who was also going to Vegas? Yeah, he's like, I need to go to Vegas, and I'll hitch a ride with you. And you've both got it. And he's like, I pay you a certain amount of fee and then also half the gas. I can't exactly remember the fee arrangements are relevant here because he drove all

the way with my blessing because there was a ton of traffic. You know, we're going to Vegas on like a Thursday or a Friday. And we're talking the whole time. And this dude, he looked like jacked morrow. like he was just really, really strong-looking, like dude who was kind of, I mean, he had a look about him. And I was like, all right, well, okay. It's kind of funny because we'd stop for gas and I'd be like, do you mind giving me the keys just so like you don't leave without me? Because I don't really know you. And he was, he was really cool about that. And I felt kind of bad asking,

but it's like, well, it is my car. So he took this crazy back route to Vegas. He's like, look, man, we can take whatever route you want, but I know a route around this traffic. So he took this back route around some literal dirt roads and like sandy patches in the roads and it shaved a ton of time off the ride and was amazing and I really wish I'd saved the route somehow. But the whole time I'm like texting my girlfriend at the time and I'm like, FYI, like here's where I am and this is the mile marker because I don't know like we're in this weird area and she's like, uh, okay. And I like lose service occasionally. And then halfway through the ride, we're in the middle of the desert. There's maybe like a trailer on the horizon and like cacti.

literal cacti and nothing else in one lane road. And I'm like, how do you know about this route? And he goes, oh, it's quite a story, you know, and he like won't tell me. And I'm like, for real, though, how do you know the route? And like, as we get back into civilization-ish, I mean, and I'm, by civilization, I mean, now there's trailer parks in the distance. And like, bikers are passing us. And I don't mean cyclists.

I mean, like, motorbikes, the packs of motorbikes. And he goes, yeah, well, okay. We know each other for a few hours now. You know we're cool. We're going to Vegas. I used to run meth with a biker gang, and I used to take this route with the Mongols, or whatever it was.

It was like the Mongols or something similar. Like a biker gang. Yeah, like a literal sons of anarchy type of gang. And I'm like, oh, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I'm driving to Las Vegas of the former gang member drug dealer who's probably disappeared more than one person right out in this very area of the desert

in various holes that were. Doug for like mine shafts a hundred years ago and are still there. You're like, great, great, tight to tight. Yeah, season five of Breaking Bad. Yeah, totally fine over here. But it turned out, of course, that he had left all that behind. He owned a motorcycle shop and he had kids and a wife and lived in, I guess I could say, Henderson, which is like an upper middle class suburb of Las Vegas.

And yeah, so I'm lucky I'm not six feet under in the desert. But I have to say that guy was really interesting. Dude, you should have him on the show. I should have had him on the podcast flat out. I even thought about it because this is probably like 2012 or 2013. I was doing the show. He would have definitely fit into like today's version of the show. But I would never do anything like that again.

I filed that pretty much immediately under dumb kid ideas. And keeping myself open to new experiences, okay, it's brought me a lot of color to my life. You and I, we went to North Korea a couple times and stuff. But I also realized that I could have gotten killed. doing some of this stuff. That's kind of my brand, I guess. But now that I've got kids, that stuff is way behind me. But I think about that now and I'm like, oh my God, I hope my kids don't do some stupid crap like that. Yeah, in a way, this is a nightmare. And in another way, it's a great endorsement for a Zim Ride. That's right. Zimrod. I'm kind of sad that it doesn't

exist anymore. You probably won't get buried in the hole in the desert, but no guarantees. What we do guarantee is the person will pay for half the gas on the way to your untimely death. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? Gabe. My husband and I have been married for eight years, have known each other for over 10, and have a seven-year-old child together. My husband claims to have been addicted to video games since he was three, and I didn't understand or accept that for a very long time. He also says that he's addicted to alcohol and all kinds of technology, but can also get really fixated on things like collecting CDs or playing board games. He also has some major issues with sex. He disregards my lack of interest,

my mood or my non-consent practically all the time. Oh, boy, the last comment. So that's dark. Can't tell how overtly violent this is, but even if it's not, I mean, this is like, you know, it's not okay. Sorry to hear this. He tried therapy a few times and for the last three years has been doing one specializing in addictions.

His therapist suggested that I should start therapy for my codependency and I did. I never realized that I was codependent before, but apparently I'm showing some symptoms along with chronic anxiety. Hmm, well, that's a big discovery. Good on you for being willing to give therapy a try, confronting this stuff. That's excellent. Co-dependency and addiction often go hand in hand, so I can appreciate that you're doing the work here too.

It'd be really easy to be like, well, you're the addict, so you do therapy. Right. And just sit there and wait for results that may or may not come. She deserves a lot of credit for that. I agree. So she goes on, we also started couples therapy together, but I can't say I really see any progress. And I could say the same about my husband's individual therapy.

he always half-asses things that require real effort. We spend most of our time there discussing his latest benders, and he gets really frustrated because it feels like he's always the bad guy. Okay. It feels like he's always the bad guy, or he is kind of the bad, whatever, takes two to tango. I feel like I'm always the bad guy when I sexually assault you and don't listen to anything you say. Go out all night and don't come home until 10 in the morning. Takes two to tango when I'm abusing you, but okay.

Exactly. In our daily life, we tend to go through a cycle. As long as we're having sex, everything is quote unquote fine. Whenever we stop, he becomes very passive-aggressive, takes revenge, and gives me the silent treatment. In between the better days, he constantly criticizes me, double-checks everything I do, and undermines whatever I say.

And when he attacks me with the most absurd arguments, he once said he was angry with me because we went to the beach and it started to rain. And I try to defend myself, he says I'm gaslighting him. He always brings me down. And I feel like something died in me the last few years. years. I think it's undermines whatever I say. Oh, what did I say? I'm just kidding. I'm undermining things that you've said. Because I said undermines. Yeah, see. God, I have to do everything,

man. God. God, you stop taking revenge on me, Jordan. Terrible. Whatever. No, but this is so, so sad. Deeply sad. I don't know what else to say. It's really sad. I being treated like this by your partner sucks. Last year, my husband said that our child, quote unquote, ruined his life and continues to do so, and that he hates him because he takes most of my attention away from my husband. I was really close to leaving him after that. Oh. Oh, what a detail. Wow.

So, okay, I, that, this guy is kind of a POS. I can have some empathy for somebody dealing with an addiction. Sure. Even someone dealing with a possible personality disorder, I guess, but saying your child is ruining your life because you then don't get 100% of your partner's attention? What are you talking about? Parenting 101 is you are no longer the most important.

thing in the world. That's supposed to be kind of a good thing. It was a good thing for me. Man, this guy sucks. He's a man-child, but I almost, there's a tiny dirt corner of my brain where there's a little bit of sympathy because you're broken. Remember that father from a few weeks ago who was like, oh, yeah, our child doesn't need a relationship with me. He's got you. These guys are broken in some sort of weird way because fatherhood is supposed to open up your heart and everything. And I, you know me. I'm not like a woo-woo guy. But that happens when you have a kid. And if it doesn't happen to you, you're defective in this weird way that you maybe can't fix. And so I have a little bit of sympathy for the guy,

but otherwise he's a total jackwad, clearly. Once in a while, my husband asks me if I think he's narcissistic, to which I always reply that I'm not as therapist, I'm not qualified to diagnose him with anything. But whenever I stumble upon something that describes a narcissistic person, your podcast was actually my first source on the topic. I can see my husband ticking most, if not all, of the boxes. I've discussed leaving my husband many times with my therapist, but I don't see how I can make it happen.

I earn less than he does, and I wouldn't be able to afford rent in our larger city. I'd obviously take my son with me, but I can only see my husband cutting his ties with him completely, just to spite me. I mean, in a way, great, good riddns, but also I understand the logistical concerns here. Right. Well, not exactly Father of the Year at the moment, is he? I don't know how much of a loss, but it would still, yeah, that's a wound. So she goes on, I'm really worried that my son might lose his dad. My husband is not a perfect father, but he has his moments.

Gabe, her loyalty and grace for this guy are frankly starting to surprise me, and I have to wonder if this is part of the codependency. Right. Or she's just trying to find reasons to justify staying. Which I also understand. Yeah, all of it understandable. So she goes on, I could move back to my hometown, but I don't want to feel too dependent on my parents, especially since my mom loves to impose herself and can be difficult to handle. Gee, where did my codependency come from? Yeah, that's an interesting detail. Good point. So she goes on, my relationship with my mom was quite rocky when I was growing up, but it's been better since I moved out, mostly because of the distance I maintain. Also, I've dreamed of my own house for a long time, but my husband always considered it too much of a bother.

Then, when I was considering leaving him last year, he pushed us into buying a flat that's not even close to what I wanted. The monthly payments devour my salary almost entirely. Her salary, so she's the one paying for it? That's how she phrased it, so that makes me think she's on the hook for. these mortgage payments. Well, this friggin' guy, man. I've tried applying for other jobs to get a better salary and potentially rent a flat. But all I've been getting are rejections, and I've lost my motivation.

I feel unable to make the move and leave. Last year, I decided to start accepting and appreciating what I have instead of dragging myself down with what ifs and missed opportunities. But I'm really struggling with that. How do I start accepting my life? Do I really need to know if my husband is a narcissist? Do you think I should press the issue and possibly ask him to get diagnosed? Or should I just learn how to cope with a narcissistic person, no matter what, signed,

depressed, oppressed, and tethered to this hot mess? Oh, man, okay. Well, there's so much going on in this story. First of all, I am so sorry you ended up with this person. You've painted a picture of a very chaotic, very painful marriage on so many levels. I was already wincing when you talked about the addictions and the possible slash probable sexual assaults. But then you get into this stuff about him like dominating you, tearing you down. He doesn't like your child, the narcissism, the financial irresponsibility and manipulation.

I'm just like, gosh, this guy is a little bit of a monster, even if he's not that way all the time. And you say that something died in you in the last few years. And I believe you, this horrifying and deeply sad. That said, I do appreciate that you've also tried to work on your side of the street here, that you're able to locate some empathy for your husband. I think that's admirable. But at this point, I'm afraid that these qualities are keeping you stuck in a highly dysfunctional and emotionally quite dangerous situation. So obviously, as you can tell, I think you need to leave. You gave it a real shot on many levels. You're not getting any indication that your husband is equally committed to this work. Work, by the way, that he primarily needs to do, although again,

always, you know, again, takes two to tango and some of this stuff. At some point, at some point, though, man, you've got to come to terms with the fact that this is who your husband is, and he's probably not going to get better, and that you and your son deserve a whole lot more. Now, I understand that there are some very real obstacles to you leaving. One main one being money, and I hate that he's largely responsible for that, pushing you to buy this flat right as you were about to leave him, which actually, Gabriel, am I just sort of like paranoid, conspiratorial here. It almost seems like was the timing of this and the pressure on this a tactic to get her to stay?

I don't know. I think it might have been because he said that it was always too much of a bother. And then all of a sudden she's like, I think I'm going to leave. And he's like, oh, here's the apartment and you're going to pay for it. And we're going to take out a loan. I mean, the timing is weird. It is. And if that's exactly how it went down, then there you have it.

And unfortunately, it might have worked. I think it might have worked. But you have to find a way out of this situation. Now, it might take a ton of hard work. It might take a bunch of grit more than you think you have in you. It might take a while. It might take years even, but you have to do it. Because the alternative is, I mean, you know, it's this nightmare.

So you need to be patient, you need to be driven and focused, and you need to be consistent, and you have to start pursuing the people and ideas and resources to start charting your own path in life. So friends, family, mentors, your therapist, a support group, maybe like a financial coach of some kind, books about abuse and divorce and financial literacy, whatever you need, and you need to start asking for help and advice wherever you go. And you need to commit to capitalizing on that advice. And I know that you've gotten a lot of rejections recently.

I know how demoralizing that is. The fact that you're even job hunting when your husband dominates you in this way is quite remarkable, actually. I mean, it shows that you've also got a ton of drive and resilience and you've got some resourcefulness. Like maybe he doesn't know about this because you're using some proton mail or something like that. Good for you. But you've got to lick your wounds and you've got to keep applying. You've got to ask the people in your life for referrals and recommendations. You have to take your relationships seriously because they are.

are the best asset that you have. And I mean relationships with, you know, people other than him. All that six minute networking.com stuff that I talk about so much, it's not just about getting ahead in your career. I've literally heard from multiple people who are able to escape bad relationships or move to better countries or get their children

into great schools because of these concepts and the drills and stuff in there. So your relationships really are everything. So, and look, I'm hocking my own crap here, but six minute networking.com if you're not already into that. And they won't just open doors for you. These relationships, they're going to sustain you and motivate you along the way as well.

You need all the support. You can get emotional support as well. Yes, totally agree. You also need to remember that this isn't just about you and your sanity. This is also about your son. I mean, this kid deserves a home where dad isn't raging and rejecting him and coming home drunk at like nine in the morning while he's having breakfast with a collector's edition of Parcheese under his arm, right?

And like playing Call of Duty till three in the morning and talking. talking, you know, in the kitchen about how he hates his son. I mean, he deserves a mom also who isn't exhausted and afraid and diminished at every turn by her husband. Sure, maybe you could grit your teeth and stay small and muddle through your life with this guy. But at what cost, you know, like what impact is that going to have on your son for the rest of his life? So on days when you find it hard to fight for yourself, I think you got to fight for him. And yes, unfortunately, I do think you should at least consider moving near your parents. But that really depends on how difficult your mom is, how strong your boundaries with her are. I do wonder if there's a way to ask her for some

support, you know, while you get on your feet and protect yourself from whatever she might do to you. But you would have to be extremely thoughtful about those boundaries. And I wonder if that's hard for you, for obvious reasons. I mean, a lack of boundaries is obviously a big part of codependency. And going home, that might kind of be like going back to the scene of the crime. But then I ask myself, is that really worse than being abused and hurt and let down in so many ways by your husband? You know, is that really worse than living with a cruel, unmotivated, narcissistic man-child? I mean, going home might be stressful. It might not be ideal. But if your only way out of this toxic marriage is to go home, you might have to choose between the lesser of two

evils for a short period of time. I'm with you, Gabe. Three months, six months back at home. That might be survivable with a new approach. Now, about the narcissism label. Nah, you don't need to know whether your husband is officially a narcissist, whatever. Whether it's a true personality disorder, it's not going to change much for you other than confirming what you already suspect. So, yeah. But I do find it interesting that this matters so much to her. Same. I kind of wonder if having the label, especially from an authority, that stamp on paper, right? If that's going to, what, give her more confidence in her own experience here or something? Exactly. That might speak to the part of her that struggles sometimes to go, what I'm experiencing is real.

my judgments and opinions about my husband are legitimate. This is not okay, which is a good thing for you to notice because that might be part of how you ended up in this relationship. And, you know, it might be part of what's keeping you stuck in it now. So no, we do not feel that you should just learn how to cope with a narcissistic person no matter what. You're certainly allowed to. So many people do, but that doesn't have to be your story. And I do not believe it's time to give up. In so many ways, so many horrifying and hurtful ways, your husband has shown that he's not a healthy or loving partner or parent. More importantly, he's shown that he's not able or willing to meaningfully change, but you are. And that means that changing this situation falls on you. This is your responsibility now.

Not your fault, but your responsibility. So what I would accept is how serious this situation is, what's at stake if you don't make a change, and that a much better life is potentially waiting for you, and that you also deserve that life. And on that note, I would highly recommend reading Dr. Romney's new book, It's Not You. In the book, she talks about, about accepting that a narcissistic partner is probably not going to change unless they really, really want to and they're really putting in a ton of work. And she also talks about how to effectively get out of a relationship with a narcissist. And if you can't leave, also, it's like an option in the book. Most books are like, you've got to leave. And this book is like, you might not

be able to because you can't pay rent. I mean, your precise scenario is kind of outlined in this book. It's a very useful resource for you right now. We'll link to that in the show notes. Please use our book links because it helped support the show. And we're rooting for you, my friend. You can do this. You just got to be patient, but work hard. You are playing the long game here, and we're wishing you and your son all the best. You know what's more affordable than an apartment you didn't even want in the first place? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals and discounts and ways to support the show are on one clickable, searchable place. Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider

supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I met my friend Patrick and his cousin John in third grade and we all grew up together. Then, in university, I opened up an eBay account and started buying things I enjoyed, mostly 80s and 90s figurines like Ninja Turtles and G.I. Joe's. One day, Patrick asked me if we could start selling the original Xbox. He noticed that people on eBay were selling them for over $1,000 when they were like $400 retail. Sweet deal for university students. This was his idea, so I let him run with it. Every two weeks, for four or five months, Patrick would give me about $200, telling me it was from the Xbox sales. Then he stopped giving me money. I really didn't pay much attention to it.

Then I started getting calls from people from Indiana, Ohio, and other Midwest states saying that they hadn't received their Xbox. I'd check with Patrick and he would say, oh, overstocks on back order or I did send it, let me check. It never occurred to me to check my eBay account. I made up my mind that Patrick was telling me the truth and that he was going to fix this. Then one day, I received a letter and an email from eBay and a legal entity that I owed eBay a very large amount of money and that I had to pay back all the money to the people who never received their Xboxes and that my account was closed and I was banned from their site. I confronted Patrick and asked him how this could have happened. Patrick looked me right in the eye and told me,

I realized I make more money if I don't purchase the Xbox, so I stopped. Wow, wow, okay. Well, dude just straight up copped to being a scammer, con artist. Cool, sure, good best friend. I mean, that really sucks. This is a guy, like, how creepy is that? That is such a literal confession that you have to wonder

if there's something seriously wrong with this guy. A hundred percent, man. Yeah, no dodge, nothing. Like, oh, I realize that my profit margin goes up when I just engage in fraud and BD. Like, what? Yeah, the two-bit con artist's MBA analysis. Dude's got to screw loose for sure.

Just where there's smoke, there's fire, too. This definitely gets worse, I assume. I was floored by his statement and asked him about how he was going to help me pay eBay back. He said, it's your account. You should pay attention. Sounds like a you problem. Oh, wow.

Like a total a hole on top of it. This guy's just a predator, man. Wow. What was funny is that I wasn't angry. I was more hurt. Patrick was a very close and lifetime friend, and he said this so coldly, without a care in the world, then asked if I wanted to go catch a movie. What? After this, I distanced myself from Patrick. It took me a year to pay eBay back, and I've never been

on the site since. Funnily enough, John, who worked with me at a deli, had warned me about Patrick before all this, but I didn't believe him. I would later find out from John that Patrick was using the Xbox money to buy escorts and clothing and to live a nice lifestyle. No drugs or alcohol, as Patrick was health conscious. Health conscious, but bangs random women for money. I guess? Okay. Yeah, hard to know whether that's true.

Sure. Okay. Another friend of ours bought a DSLR camera, and Patrick pawned it. He'd also borrow friends' student IDs, check out laptops from the computer labs on campus, and pawned those, too. He owed money to the wrong people and had his mom's brand new Corvette stolen, wink, wink, from her garage. Ooh. Okay. So this dude is just a total fraudster.

desperately trying to keep all these pins in the air. And I am getting a whiff of a mental illness here for sure. Five years later, John organized a get together with old friends from high school. Patrick was there. As my wife and I were leaving, he approached me outside. We made small talk, and he asked me if I wanted to go out and catch up. I confronted him and told him that he hurt me as a friend. He stared at me and just said that it was in the past and we shouldn't worry about such things. Oh, we shouldn't worry about me totally trying to ruin your life and not caring? I just, I hate this guy. What a ridiculous person. He was right. I was holding onto it, and I never realized how much till that moment. I looked at him and told him he was right, and that I forgave him.

I declined his offer to catch up and haven't seen him since. My wife asked me how I could just forgive him like that. I realized that the forgiveness was not for him, but for me, to let go of the feelings of being stupid and embarrassed. Was Patrick a narcissist? It's quite a theme today. Theme. Should I have punched him in the face? Well, why didn't I do more? What could I have done? Signed, wondering where to point the finger after falling hook, line, and sinker for this total wanker. Yeah, I mean, should you have punched him in the face? No, did he deserve it? Yes. But that's not what we're addressing here. Man, I'm very sorry you cross past with this guy. He's a bad apple, to put it lightly, and he targeted you the way that he targeted so many people, just to make a

quick buck to save his own skin. This guy screwed over his own mother, so I think it's safe to say he was never really your friend, but at least not by any definition that you would, normal person would have as a friend. I'm not sure this guy is capable of having true friends. Again, screws over his own mom, has her car stolen. I understand why all this hurt you the way it did. It's a huge betrayal. It's very unsettling, and it must have been even worse, given your history together. I mean, if I get screwed over by some random stranger or a new person that I met, I'm like, wow. But if I get screwed over by somebody I've known since kindergarten or third grade or whatever it was, that would really, yeah, it cuts deep. So I don't know if Patrick was a narcissist

and I don't really care. Maybe it would explain some of his behavior. There's certainly narcissism at work here, I guess. But I don't know, Gabe, I'm getting far deeper sociopath vibes from this guy, right, versus narcissism. Definitely. I heard that too when he confronted Patrick and Patrick was like, oh, yeah, I just put you $8,000 in the hole with eBay and implicated you in numerous crimes. But yeah, let's not worry about that kind of stuff. You want to go see Batman begins at $2.50? Like, what? Yeah, just cold, unfeeling, but also complete inability to empathize. It sounds like a you problem. Am I right? Anyway, it's almost like he's confused about what went wrong. It just sounds like a wiring issue at that point. If somebody knows they

screwed you over and they know it's wrong, they avoid you, right? There's all kind of. kinds of other stuff going on. This guy was like, what, you're mad about that? I mean, that's weird. Also, yeah, I totally screwed you, but like, whatever. He just doesn't even understand. This man is broken. So the only smart option with people like this is to stay far away from them. They will always try to screw you because that's just how they operate. I wouldn't even talk to somebody like this. They can't have normal relationships. They can't consider someone else's experience. You're literally wasting your breath and probably opening yourself up to being victimized again. So your main question, why didn't I do more? What could I have done? That's the

only question that's worth asking yourself. And I don't know if you were just asking about that night that you ran into him or about the whole relationship, but I'm going to apply that to the whole relationship and remind you that even though Patrick's fraud came as a surprise, you did have a very explicit warning early on from John, your other best friend who's related to the guy, right? He literally told you before all this that Patrick was bad news. And in your words, you just didn't believe him. Wasn't John Patrick's cousin? Yes.

My question is, why would you not believe him? Did you not trust John's opinion at that time? Were you more loyal to Patrick? Did you not want to believe John? Right. And if so, why was that? Did you not want to lose Patrick as a friend? Was it painful to acknowledge this guy that you grew up with was bad news?

was it stressful or scary to think about pulling away or telling them you weren't going to be partners? Listening to John, taking the red flags at face value along the way, that is just one huge thing you could have done differently. The other thing that you could have done differently is you could have been more on top of the business. I get ignoring stuff. I've also been guilty of this in years past.

Someone else took out a bunch of credit cards in their own name and funneled the money into a business that I was running. and when we found out about it, he was like, the business owes me this. You need to sign this letter that says the business owes me this. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. He ended up going through bankruptcy, and he tried to sue me, by the way.

And I was like, you did this without telling anyone. Luckily, there were like a ton of people in the business, and then we were all like, we have no idea why you would do this and nobody gave you permission. And his argument was you did. And it's like, well, then why are they in your name and not in the business? Why did nobody else in the business take out the cards?

So, you know, a total moron. But first of all, the dude's handing you $200 in cash flat every two weeks. You're taking it. No income summary, no sales report. You don't even want a Google sheet showing like how many of these things you sold. Also, Gabe, I wasn't really paying attention, but the math is a little weird here too, right? Yeah, the profit margin should have been $600 per unit, right? So he's handing you a third of that without telling you how many units he sold.

So even if he sold two of these Xboxes a month, the math is weird. Right. and then he stops giving you money completely, and in your words, you're like, I didn't pay much attention to it. Like, I just guess I stopped the business. Why? I mean, at what point do you go,

huh, something's not right here? Let me log into eBay and see what's up. Like, I'm curious how many Xboxes we're selling. Then you get those calls from people angry they never got their products. So at that point, even if you had good reason to discount all the red flags, all the signals, which you didn't because John had already warned you,

but even if you did, that's when you go, okay, my business partner is either, a hot mess or he's on drugs or something or something fishyy's going on. But even then, you said it never occurred to me to check my eBay account, which I'm calling shenanigans on. I think you were avoiding something here. That's what you need to figure out. I'm not sure if it was the responsibility of managing the details that go into being a business owner. That's kind of what it was for me, or the burden of confronting who Patrick really was. But in so many ways, you either missed the cues or you buried your head in the sand, and that created a massive blind spot when it

comes to this guy. That is exactly right. Yeah. And that's why this thing with Patrick had to happen, I think, to help you confront this part of your personality, the part of it that didn't want to confront his. You know, Jordan, one of the most telling parts of his letter is when he said, I made up my mind that Patrick was telling me the truth and that he was going to fix this. Yeah. Like, I made up my mind to bury my head in the sand and disregard all evidence that comes in until I get sued by eBay. Like, what is that, is that what that means? That's what it meant. I think it means that it was very hard for him to even entertain the possibility that Patrick was lying to him, using him. And again, why that is, that's for him to figure out. But I have a feeling it's because it would have been very wounding

to admit that Patrick was a bad dude and that he targeted him. Like he said, he was more hurt than angry when it all came out. So he clung to a version of his friend that he could live with in order to spare himself the pain of accepting who he really was. But what that pain actually consisted of, it's such an interesting question. I mean, I'm sure it's the usual mix of, sadness, disappointment, regret, anger, all normal responses. But because he had so many signs along the way, I think it was also a lot of embarrassment. I was going to say, I think our friend here is a lot of shame about all this. He has some egg on his face, right? John literally told him, dude, watch out for my cousin, not a good guy, and he went into business with him anyway. And then he stuck around way longer than

he should have. So this brute force intellectual position, I'm just going to make up my mind that Patrick is a good person, that sounds like a defense against a wound that he would feel, or just a general kind of broad discomfort or ambiguity about who this person really is and what it all means. The wound might be, I had poor judgment. I missed the signs. I made myself vulnerable. I was asleep at the wheel, basically. On some level, I participated in this dynamic with this guy. Exactly. There's a connection here to the Gavin DeBecker idea we talked about last week or the week before, whatever it was, how at some point, right, many victims become volunteers. But as long as you're colluding with your scammer, even if it's just by turning a blind eye, cling into the

version of them that you wish they were, you're enabling them. In a sense, you're indirectly targeting yourself. Which is why when he forgave Patrick all these years later, he said it was for himself. Yeah, to let go of all these feelings of feeling stupid and embarrassed, right? Again, he's sparing himself some difficult emotions. So my question for you is, what is it about those feelings that's so difficult to tolerate. I'm not saying that you should live the rest of your life consumed with hatred for this guy. That's not healthy either. But he victimized you, man. He conned you. He exploited you. It's perfectly appropriate to be angry at him and to remember what he did to you, to not let him off the hook. That anger isn't just justified. It's also protective. Now, I can

understand being embarrassed about the role that you played here. I totally get it. But there's another way to approach yourself, which is, huh, interesting. There's a part of me that doesn't always want to be in contact with reality, whether it's with the truth about this guy, with the details of a business, with my own feelings, or even with this guy years later, when I'm still really hurt and really angry at him, but I don't want to own that. So maybe it's time for me to look at those qualities, try to figure out why they're there, see if I can work on them and hopefully grow here. By forgiving Patrick so easily, which, by the way, let's remember, you also did because he said you shouldn't worry about stuff like this, which suggests to me that Patrick might still be

exerting some influence over you, I think you missed another opportunity to fully be in touch with all of this, which is precisely what you could have done to protect yourself from him in the first place. That's exactly right. And that's why I kind of don't think he truly forgave Patrick in the classic sense of the word. This wasn't like, okay, you're a defective human being. I'm super angry at you, but mostly I feel bad for you. So I'm going to forgive you because you aren't capable of getting better. This is more like it. My anger and shame and hurt are so awful that I'm going to pretend I'm forgiving you so that I don't have to keep feeling this way. And I totally understand the impulse to do this. But meanwhile, those feelings are still bubbling beneath the surface because they really haven't

been fully acknowledged and explored. And I hate to say this because I know this is all kind of intense, but until you do explore those feelings, I'm a little bit afraid that your vulnerability to people like Patrick, it remains in place. Gabe, it's interesting. Over the years, I've dealt with a few Patrick's here and there. And I've had vendors and partners and collaborators who promised products and never delivered or funneled resources away from our company or even tried to take part of my old businesses or whatever, or did take part of my old business, just took it. And it wasn't until I met Jen and started working with her that I was really able to see a lot of this stuff clearly. It's not that I didn't notice these guys were scumbags and didn't try to do anything about it. But Jen saw this play

out a couple of times or one specific time and was like, why are you wasting your time with this guy? He's a knucklehead and he's full of crap. Why does this happen? And I had to really look at that because lots of business owners get screwed around with, it's for sure. But I realized I also had some ideas at the time that were making me vulnerable to these people. Like, for example, I would think, oh, if I bring this person in, they're going to handle all this marketing stuff.

And this stuff is so confusing and there's so much to know. And I don't know if I can figure it out. It's all new to me. And then I don't have to learn how to do this stuff myself, which is, you know, look, you hire vendors because they have certain expertise. but this was like, I'm going to fix every problem you say you have. That's suss. Or, oh, this person has all these secrets that I don't know or experience I don't have and I can't run this business without them. Which is funny because that's actually precisely what a lot of marketers do to create buyers.

They look at what you need and they tell you, oh, I have this thing that you don't know. If you buy it, you'll get crazy results. Look at all these results I'm delivering for other people, whether they're true or not. but a lot of internet marketers, they're just low-key scammers. So much of it is a con. I probably don't need to sell that point too hard. We've all seen people selling crap online that's clearly junk, especially info products. So I'd find these questionable partners who really wanted to work with me

because of the size of the show, my online footprint, and they really worked overtime to make me feel like I should trust them because they were targeting me. And it was red flag after red flag, and I would be too busy, quote unquote, too busy, and discount those. and I really did need Jen to be like, hey, this guy's targeting you. There's a pattern here.

And that was a big step for me. And that's what our friend here needs to do. It's kind of funny. One of the final just hammer of the nail in the coffin of me being vulnerable to this kind of thing was having to restart this business, this show, seven years ago, whatever it's been. Because I was like, I basically did that with the team's help. I didn't need these outside yutzes.

They wasted my time targeting me at that point in time. I was vulnerable, by the way. But then I realized, like, these guys didn't really do anything. Not much anyway. And they were a lot, 99% talk. And so I was like, you know what? If I can rebuild this whole thing with my team, I don't need these external yutzes.

Like, they can do specific stuff, but I'm not hiring any of these guys. And I basically was just like, I'm not working with you guys anymore. And it was funny because they were like, what? And then they just screwed off and never talked to me again, and I'm fine with it.

Wow. Yeah. But I did need Jen to kind of be like, shine the flashlight on it. So that's what our friend here needs to do. It needs to really look at the thoughts and the feelings and assumptions that he has about how he runs his businesses, how he might navigate life in general, which are becoming vulnerabilities to human viruses like Patrick. The feelings, all feelings, they're there to teach you something about yourself, of course, but also about other people, including people who wish to do you harm. These feelings in many ways are our evolved defense mechanisms, right? They're trying to communicate something to us.

So rather than suppress them, sidestep them, discharge them, whatever you're doing to distance yourself, from essentially yourself, I'd lean into them and invite them in. Like the husband from the previous question, this is something that Patrick can't do. His wiring is broken. Both of those guys' wiring is broken. And that's a tragedy. But you can do this.

And there's a whole world of information in there and a ton of growth. So I hope you get to do that, man. And I hope you get to capitalize on this really awful experience. You're already in the process of doing it, which is great. And I wish you good luck. I know it sounds like a lot. I've lost, you know, lots and lots and lots and lots of money to scammers and a-holes. I don't really miss it.

And I know that it's like digging out sucks, but then after that you're like, oh, all right. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your mom's being targeted by a guy because your state keeps letting him out of jail, your brother's obsessed with goats or your bedridden dad is stuck in a house with a violent psychotic family member.

Man, give the spectrum of stories we get on the show really never see. Jesus too amaze me. Isn't it crazy? Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hey guys, my mom lived with her boyfriend for 20 years before passing away nine years ago. She had a long journey into dementia and as she became less able to do things, I stepped up. It started with weekly visits to fill her pill caddy and by the time she passed, I was going there nearly every day to make them supper, do their grocery shopping, take them to all of their appointments, whatever was necessary. Neither of my sisters lifted a finger to help,

nor did my mom's boyfriend's children, even though three of the four lived within 11 miles of his home. I'm still friends with her boyfriend. I call him stepdad. We go places and do things regularly, and I thought we were family. Three years ago, he broke his hip and hasn't been able to live at home since,

mostly because his daughter wants him in a nursing home. I've spoken to him almost daily since this happened, keeping his spirits up. Then, last Christmas, his granddaughter announced her engagement. A couple days later, I saw his daughter, the bride-to-be's mom, at his nursing home. She told me about the wedding and asked if I would mind bringing her dad. Of course I'll do that, I said. The venue is about 40 minutes from here, and he takes a long time to do things.

Days before the wedding, I still hadn't received an invite, didn't have the name of the place, the address, or the time. Then his daughter called yesterday with that information and inform me that because they're having a micro wedding, of only 70 guests, she listed me as a vendor. That way, I can still get a plate, but I'm not allowed to drink at the open bar. Am I expected to give them a gift? A card with money in it? I don't think any of my fellow vendors are going to do so. Should I send her an invoice the day after the wedding, charging her for taking care of her dad? Signed, playing this card I've been dealt, when apparently I'm just the help. Man, I'm sorry that your mom's boyfriend's family is treating you this way. I think it's funny. It's a micro wedding, but it's 70 guests. Micro is like 10 people,

including the bride and groom. Yeah, 10 people at a small chapel. Anyway, you have to make some tough calls at even a 70-person wedding. I get it. There's a world where your grandfather's late girlfriend's daughter doesn't make the cut. And if you communicate that kindly with a phone call or an email explaining why, like it's purely budgetary and we're having trouble, I get it. Maybe it's okay, especially if you're not super close, although it sounds like maybe you kind of were, which, you know, But if you call that person a family member, as far as I'm concerned, and you ask him to bring your own father to the wedding as a favor? You give that person an invite. Absolutely, right?

It seems so de-classé, man, and petty. And not even that much more cost-effective. And if you don't know what de class A means, it means gauche. And if you don't know what gauche means, it's a word that pretentious assholes used to sound culture. Which you just did. So, twice, I would add. But yeah, I'm with you, man. That's what I'm confused about.

They're saying, we're having a super small wedding so you can stay for dinner, but you can't have a couple glasses of pinot grange at the bar. Like, that's where we draw the line. Right, no cake for you. Meanwhile, she's schlepping their father from the nursing home or whatever,

and then she has the same status as the person who brought, what, the freaking photo booth to the wedding? And she's got to squeeze in at her stepdad's table and go havesies on his chair to enjoy her plate. I'm sorry, but this is total BS.

This guy is her stepfather. Her mom was with him for 20 years. If you don't want to invite her, don't invite her, but don't turn her into your dang contractor and then not include her in the event. This woman deserves all the pino grease she can drink for guts. Well, probably not if she's driving an elderly man back home, 11 miles. I was going to say, if she's driving the dad home, maybe moderate. But yeah, a couple of glasses over the evening for sure.

I agree. It's hurtful. I want to believe that they just didn't think this. through, but how could they not? They thought it through enough to give her a vendor's invite and send her the details, so they must be aware of what this meant. That's probably why it took them so long to get her the details. They were probably going back and forth, trying to decide whether to invite her, and it's just so lame. It's so gross. So do you give them a gift? Well, I certainly understand why you don't want to, but if you don't, they're going to notice, and they're definitely going to

interpret that as some kind of slight. Even though she already gave them a gift, hi, I brought your dad to the wedding. Agreed, but they're not thinking about it like that, right? And when they do their spreadsheet on who gave what, they're going to go, huh, interesting, Elis didn't give us anything. Someone's got her knickers in a twist, you know, like, they're going to interpret it that way. Guess who's double not invited to our open house Thanksgiving this year where you have to bring the turkey? Yeah, I hate that they've put her in this position because now she looks like the petty one,

either by not giving them a gift or by bringing it up with them and then pointing out how rude it is. I got to say, though, the idea of sending her an invoice, I love that. It's so funny. I mean, that's like a super putty, dark Jordan, a dark Elise. I love it. And maybe there's a world in which that plays well, probably not. There is a certain poetry in it, though. But that is definitely going to piss them off more and or make them embarrassed and pull away. I love the idea that the idea occurred to you, but I think that's where it should stay. Your best bet is really to go to the wedding, take good care of your stepdad, play nice with everyone. And afterward, you get the a bride something small. It doesn't have to be lavish. Maybe a Fyaz Kunundra from IKEA or whatever,

and then adjust your expectations of this quote unquote family accordingly. They might be signaling how close they really want to be with you. And frankly, that sucks. It's not kind. They sound selfish already because of the whole not taking care of anyone thing and letting you do all that. They're taking advantage of you. And I don't know, do you need family like that? You might just want to take the signal and accept that this is how they feel and they're not going to change. There is one other possibility here, Jordan, which is our friend here sacrificed a lot for her mom and her stepdad over the years. She clearly has some resentment and I think understandable resentment toward her sisters and her step-siblings who apparently left all of this to her.

And then her step-sister just put her dad in a nursing home after he broke his hip, presumably because it was easier on her, on her and her siblings. So I do wonder if his kids and his granddaughter, the bride, just aren't that close with him, or they don't treat him very well. And so by extension, they're not that close with the daughter of his ex-girlfriend, which would mean that this whole wedding invite thing might not ultimately be about her. She's just collateral damage and their relationship with her father. The other possibility is that during that time that our friend was taking care of her mom and stepdad, some friction developed between her and the rest of the family because she was like,

hey, I'm the only one who cares, I do all the work, you guys don't lift a finger. And she might be right about that. But that might have also driven them away. it might have made them resent her. We don't know exactly how she communicated her feelings to them at the time, not that they were wrong, but we just don't know how those conversations went. So when they're doing the seating chart for the wedding, they might be going, uh, yeah, let's not invite Elise because she's so difficult, which still really sucks. It's hurtful. But it might make some sense if they have fundamentally different opinions and feelings about who owes what to whom in this family. Yeah, it's a good point.

I don't think this all just started with the wedding. Clearly there were cracks in the relationship. leading up to all this, but now she's seeing it clearly. Whatever you do, when you're at the wedding, I would definitely go ahead and order that Pino Gris or three. Don't even think twice about it. First of all, the bartender's not going to be like, sorry, can I see your invitation? Are you family or are you the person who brought the sparklers? He's just going to pour you a drink, or they're going to hand it out on a tray.

Second, even if the family sees you ordering, sorry, but who cares? You're literally costing them like five bucks, ten if they're serving the really good stuff, which, based on the fact that they're trying to vendor you, something tells me that I'm serving the good stuff. And if they get billed for it, Tufkishka, as my grandma used to say, you schlep their dad, you can enjoy some venos, sis. And if the bride's mom locks eyes with you and horror at the bar while you order, I would lift your glass.

Give her a wink like Leonardo DiCaprio and the Great Gadsby, and just take a nice, long victory sip before you return to your non-existent seat. That can be your little win. And if it's like me, I am ending that sip with, just loud enough she can hear it. Yeah, and the other thing I would do is I would get the bride and groom, one of those fjals, Kunundra, that you have to assemble yourself. And then they gave you a job, now you get to give them one.

Exactly. And you know what? Take a couple screws out of that bad boy. Just one or two of each type. Keep them on their toes. It's a beautiful cycle, a beautiful petty cycle. There's nothing like putting something together from IKEA and being like, I need one of those wooden little dowels.

that goes in like one hole and then goes in the other hole to keep the thing together strongly because you're holding two partially built pieces and you just don't have any more of those and you're like, damn, I gotta put this down and drive over there. Oh man, I think this might be a little bit

of a turning point in your relationship. That's not necessarily a bad thing. You still have your stepdad. That's the relationship that matters the most. The rest of the family, they might just not be your people. And that's okay. It hurts, but it's okay.

Your stepdad is lucky. to have you taken care of them, have fun at the wedding, or, you know, as much fun as you can. You know who's not going to make you eat your slice of cake in a bathroom stall, Gabriel? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do. What other smart and considerate listeners do? We just take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one searchable and clickable place.

Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Also, by the way, if you can't find a code, you wonder if we have a certain sponsor, definitely email me Jordan at Jordan Harbinger.com. I'm more than happy to dig up these codes for you. It's really no trouble. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Dear Gabe and Jordan, back when my daughter was 21 or 22 years old, she started seeing this guy who worked construction for my husband. Let's call him Aaron. Aaron was also part of her congregation and a very close friend of my sons as well. He was like family. We really enjoyed his company. He and my daughter got pretty serious, pretty quickly, and it seemed like they were heading toward engagement. Then, one night, my daughter had Aaron's phone and saw in his browser that he was looking for local escorts. We're a religious family, very conservative, and we were shocked. Aaron actually called my husband crying and admitted to what our daughter had found on his phone. He said she had left and was on our way home to us. We all cried with her and let her know that we would. would support her in whatever decision she made. She said that she wanted nothing further to do with him,

which was very hard on her, especially because this all happened during the pandemic lockdowns. Fast forward four years. Our daughter is now about to turn 26. She's been happily married for a year and a half to a great guy who we feel is a perfect balance for her. But my son, who's now 21, has rekindled his friendship with Aaron. Apparently he's cleaned up his act and Aaron is trying to restore his relationships in the congregation as well. We aren't BFFs with him. but we wish him well and occasionally run into him at social events. Our daughter, however, is livid that we have anything to do with him and feels betrayed. I now feel that we have to go out of our way to hide from her that we've spent time with Aaron.

Recently, after one of her meltdowns at learning about an event he was going to attend with our family, I found myself texting her in all caps, You're married! Aaron shouldn't even be a blip on your radar. Am I a disloyal, mom? Should we continue to sneak around with our daughter? daughter's ex? Or just come out of the closet and let the chips fall where they may? Signed, am I a cheater? Or does my daughter need to treat her old beau with a different demeanor? This is kind of a tough one, Gabe. I guess, I mean, I kind of see both sides here. Right.

I can see why the brother and the parents are open to giving this guy another chance. I mean, he kind of deserves that. Being judged for the rest of your life for something you did in your early 20s before you were married. It's kind of a harsh sentence. People can obviously grow. Plus, So they have a friendship with him apart from the daughter. But I can also appreciate why their daughter finds it weird that her family's hanging out with her ex, almost fiancé, who cheated on her with a bunch of declaise tauts on backpage and broke her heart. Wait a second.

Let me just take in that phrase. Declasse tuts. Tutes. On back page. Yeah. Chef's kiss. But I really feel for you here because you're caught between your own child and a guy who sounds like he's probably maybe a decent person now who's.

done some real growth and wants to have better relationships with people in your community, that's a tough place to be. I mean, especially because he like called the husband right away, crying and admitting it. I mean, you know, he's already, it's not like he was like, ah, sucks to be you. Right. Father of the daughter I cheated on. It is a tough place to be, but the daughter is also putting her family in a bit of a tough position to some degree by being very outraged and, well, I don't want to speak too soon, but it sounds like she's being a little, maybe a little bit rigid about some of this. It sounds to me like she's very much still nursing this wound, which I can

sympathize with up to a point, but she's not giving this guy much grace or understanding. I mean, yes, he did something awful while they were together. But if it's true that he's changed and this is in the past, then is it really fair for her to only view this from her own point of view? And is it really her place to say who her parents can and can't be friends with? I mean, I get breaking up with the guy and not giving him a second chance there. I get that. But then being like, now you can't talk to my mom. All right. I mean... Well, especially four years later, right? It's not like they're yucking it up with him at church mixers six weeks after he broke their daughter's heart. That's a different situation. So much has happened since then. And she's married now and she's happy. You know, when our friend said

that she wants to tell her daughter, you're married, this guy shouldn't even be a blip on your radar. I'm not sure if you shouldn't even be a blip on her radar. They were almost engaged. Obviously, this whole thing left a real mark on her and understandably so. But I agree with her that she might be clinging to something here. Also, reading between the lines here just a little bit, she did say that her daughter has been having meltdowns about all this, quite a strong word. She also said that her daughter's husband is a perfect balance for her, which is also kind of an interesting choice of words. Yeah. So that makes me wonder, does the daughter run a little hot, maybe? Is she maybe more reactive and emotional than, you know, logical, flexible, open to other

perspectives? And her partner and maybe the whole family has to always adjust and balance out some of her extreme responses. Yeah, that's, that's an interesting read between the lines there. I kind of get that sense, too, or maybe she's just like this when it comes to Aaron, which again, being cheated on by your almost fiancee in this way, in this community especially, it's a big deal. I mean, it'd be a big deal in any community. I mean, he's cheating on her with escorts. Yuck, I'm not discounting that. But my feeling is, there's a conversation to be had with your daughter here. And the conversation has to begin with you trying to understand not only why your daughter feels so strongly about Aaron, but also why it's hard for her to imagine that he's changed, consider whether he might deserve another

chance. You have to have that part of the conversation without judgment, just empathy, curiosity, and invite her to tell you why your relationship with him is so difficult for her. The second part of the conversation, if she's open to it, is inviting her to consider, not even to decide, just to consider why Aaron continues to get under her skin so much, why you guys having a casual friendship with him as a non-starter. I agree completely. And I also know that there are people listening right now going, he cheated on her with escorts. And he probably broke her heart. So why does she have to be open to giving this guy another chance? She's well within her rights to tell her family. You should

not be talking to this guy. He's terrible. He ruined my life. Blah, blah, blah. And I get it. I really do get it. But I also think there's got to be some room for people to change, for the narrative to change, right? So as you talk, I would also maybe consider sharing with her what it's like to be stuck in the middle here. You might even want to say, look, as your mom, I am on your side and I know how hard this was for you. Remember, I was the one who cried with you. I told you that we would support you whatever you decided. But what I'm seeing, from my perspective, is a guy who has meaningfully changed, who's putting in the time and energy to repair his relationships.

And I think he deserves that chance. I appreciate that. Your brother also has a friendship with Aaron, and that's separate from your relationship with him. So I know how much it hurts you to know that we're talking to him and being nice to him, and I want to be sensitive to that. But also, it makes me feel like I'm a disloyal mother when I'm not totally sure that I need to choose here. You know, something like that.

And then see if your daughter can empathize with you a little bit. She might not, or she might say, okay, I understand what this is like for you, but still, I'm sorry, it's just too weird for me. But I do wonder if you've put it in those terms with her before, in a way that maybe hopefully allows your daughter to consider that There are other angles on Aaron besides hers. I think that would be an interesting conversation no matter what. Even if the daughter doesn't change, my hunch is that she's not going to change, but it's worth a shot.

I also have this feeling that there's something deeper going on here. I don't know if this is just about Aaron. You know, her daughter might be feeling fairly or unfairly, I don't know, that her family isn't really on her side in general. And Aaron is just a specific, very charged example of that. Or she might feel that her family really is on her side in every other way. So suddenly finding herself at odds with them about this guy, that might be very scary and destabilizing. And she's having these meltdowns not so much about Aaron specifically, but about, you know, the rules of her relationship with her family, what they owe her, how they protect her, who comes first.

If that's what's going on, then you might want to orient the conversation around that. What else this Aaron thing might be bringing up for her. But that would still be something she could work on, right? I think so. Yeah, so do I. Because there's a version of events where she goes, look, I can't have a relationship with Aaron. I don't think he deserves another chance. And I find it kind of awkward that you all want to be friends of them.

But hey, if that's what you want, okay, fine. Right, right. She can make room for both of those things. But the fact that she wants the whole family to fall in line behind her for reasons that, again, I can understand up to a point that signals to me that making room for multiple perspectives and feelings and choices, that might actually be really hard for her. And I wonder if that's a theme across her life. So before you decide to sneak around or whatever with Aaron, I'd at least try to drag this into the

open and have a conversation with your daughter. You might decide to pull back with Aaron. I don't know. If you feel like that's appropriate and her feelings make sense, maybe you're not BFFs with a guy, but you're still friendly. Or you might decide to say, look, honey, I love you. I can see that this is still very painful for you. But I'm going to be civil with Aaron when I run into him because I have enough information to believe that he's genuinely changed and I feel that he deserves that. Both are fair. But I think you need to gather some more data first. I also don't think you need to decide this on behalf of your son. You know, he has his own relationship with Aaron. They're actually the closest out of everybody in the situation. And yeah, I think her brother needs to have a version of this conversation with

his sister as well. Good point. He can be part of the conversation as a family. But I feel like they all, the mom, the brother, the daughter, they all individually could benefit from making room for everyone to have different feelings and relationships with Aaron. That might actually be the real question of this letter. How to get more comfortable with that, I idea. So get to talk and go from there. Good luck. All right, next up. Hey guys, my daughter is a beautiful and wonderfully creative artist. She's 18, but she's inexperienced in love and sex and lives at home here in Canada. We have a close relationship, and we talk openly. She's suffered a lot in high school with anxiety, mainly due to COVID and

online school. She's been in therapy for several years and loves her therapist. Recently, she fell in love with a 23-year-old man from the United States whom she met while online gaming. They spend every day online together when she isn't working at her part-time job and regularly leave their phones open while they sleep. He sent her gifts, including a necklace with his name on it. He's a freelance creator with a high school education. My daughter has taken a gap year and just found out that she's been accepted to a high-ranking art school here in Canada, which we're very excited about. I'm not too worried about his lack of post-secondary education, but I do wonder how he runs a freelance business. and hustles for new clients when he spends so much time online with my daughter.

I'm now experiencing an extreme anxiety that is keeping me up at night and putting me on a roller coaster. Sometimes my worries are assuaged somewhat, but other times I'm freaking out that my daughter's boyfriend could be a nefarious human being, or worse, a human trafficker. At first, I wasn't even convinced he was who he said he was, but now I have his phone number, have checked out his LinkedIn account, and have even been texting back and forth with him. He has a merch line and does branding and web design as well. They're arranging an in-person visit to a state next month where she'll stay with him in an Airbnb. He lives with his mother who's an alcoholic, so they can't stay at his place. I insist on going with her for this first meeting.

Still, I'll stay in separate accommodations about a mile away from theirs for five days out of the two weeks she's staying there. I tried to convince her to have their first meeting in person here in Canada, but she flatly refused. She's already transferred money to him for the accommodations, and will use some of her savings for the flights. I'm a well-rounded, worldly, liberal mother who has traveled extensively and lived in an Asian country for several years, so I'm not a prude, nor averse to solo international travel. We've discussed things like safety and birth control, which she just started. I planned to discuss an exit strategy with her, including where she'll go and who to call if she feels uncomfortable or if something happens once I leave.

We'll also get US SIM cards for our phones so we can call freely, and I want to track her phone as well if she lets me. My biggest fear is that this could go very badly, and something terrible could happen to her. But she's 18, and if I forbid her from going, she'd go anyway, damaging our close relationship. How can I be sure that this man will not harm my child? Do I just let it play out? Am I a bad parent for even letting her go in the first place? Or am I being too extreme with my fear in a child?

anxiety, signed watching my daughter grow abroad for a dude who might be flawed, a fraud, or a straight-up outlaw, or do I just need to thaw toward a bra who really hasn't done anything wrong? Okay, I could have made a sandwich during that sign-off, man. That went on for just hours. Yeah, much like her daughter's phone calls with the boyfriend. Yeah, your rhymes are taking my battery to 10%. Well, look, this is cute in some ways because the story is like 90% about a parent letting go of their baby. So look, I can certainly understand your fear and anxiety as a parent. My daughter's only two. I can't even imagine the day she starts traveling internationally and meeting boys and

carving out a life for herself, you know, texting me from Italy, like, I'm going out with some dudes I just met at a bar, like, oh my God, nightmare feel, right? I really do appreciate why this is so hard for you. You and your daughter are super close. You talk openly. That means you guys have probably been close her whole life, and I'm sure this is a very big milestone, a very meaningful transition for both of you. I also feel that your questions and concerns about this guy are appropriate to a degree. We all know there are bad people out there. There are men who target vulnerable women online. You're not totally crazy to feel anxious about your daughter flying to another country to meet an online gamer for the first time, okay? Also, their relationship does sound very intense

and all-consuming, which isn't by itself dangerous, but it is a little curious. I can understand why your spidey senses are going off there, too. Although, honestly, it also just kind of sounds like young love. What people do in their late teens, early 20s, they fall asleep with their phones on. I mean, I did that stuff. The constant conversations online, all that stuff. I mean, I just don't know if that's inherently bad. I think it's quite normal. But you raise a fair question. How does he find time for work when he's spending so much time with her? But then you make time for what you want to make time for, right? I mean, this relationship is still new. It sounds like they're very much in the honeymoon, puppy love phase, the schmoopee phase,

and in a way that's kind of sweet. So look, you know this, but your daughter's an adult. She can legally make her own choices. But, yeah, she's still very young, and she doesn't have a ton of experience in this arena. And I think kids in her generation are lagging behind a little bit in this department because of the lockdowns, which you did say were hard on her, so that's a meaningful detail. So you looking out for her, taking these precautions with her, not for her, but with her.

I think that's wise. I think it's responsible, and I think that's still maybe kind of part of your job as her mom, but I gotta say I'm not terribly worried about this guy. Yeah, he's a little bit older, but he's not like 37, he's 23.

It's not totally crazy for a 23-year-old and an 18-year-old to be dating, in my opinion. Although some people might disagree, 25, 26, 27, that's where it starts to become a little suss because at that age I remember being like, I'm not even interested in these, like, children who are 18, 19, 20, they can't even get into bars.

You know, that would be weird. But when I was 23, I don't know, my girlfriend was probably like 21. I can't remember. And remember that his social development's probably been hindered a little bit too by the whole COVID thing. More importantly, this guy runs his own business. You've checked out his LinkedIn. I'm assuming he has a public internet presence given his merch line and his branding and

his design work and all that stuff and you're in touch with him directly. It's not like a nameless, faceless dude. Your daughter's flying to another. their country to meet and he does like crypto gambling or something, right? This is a real person who presumably you vetted as well as you could. Now, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably want to have at least a FaceTime with this guy before she flies out. You don't have to go full Robert De Niro and meet the fuckers, but just a brief, you know, hey, how's it going? Nice to meet you. Tell me about you. Tell me about the trip. What do you guys have planned? And just get a feel for the guy, look him in the

eye, study his vibe. You'll learn a lot just by interacting with him, even if it's it's virtual. Texting is good, but it's one step removed. It's much easier to hide stuff that way. I also love that you are going there for five days and that you're going to be there for their first meeting. You're not staying in the Airbnb with them. That would be creepily inappropriate. But you're just down the road, so you're there if anything happens. That sounds healthy and appropriately boundary to me. You've figured out how to be in touch. You've developed an exit strategy if she needs one. Tracking her phone. I mean, some people might think that's overkill or a little oversteppy given that she's an adult. But if she's okay,

with it and it would put you at ease, then sure, why not? I mean, my Jen's got tracking on my phone, and it's not so she can control my life. It's so that if there's an emergency or anything, she's like, oh, okay, or if I say I'm going to be somewhere and then I'm in a different place, she's like, hey, are you okay? What's going on? You know, you've been stuck in the same place for a while on the road. I would just be thoughtful about not tracking her obsessively or watching their every move. You could check it a couple times a day, you know, if they're not home or something like that, super late at night, whatever. I mean, if you don't hear from her for a few hours, sure. It's just there in case something really unexpected happens. You can track her location just for

this trip. You can turn it off when she gets home. It doesn't have to be a permanent arrangement. You can settle that in the beginning. And hey, if you see the dots moving toward the Mexican border at double-digit speeds at 3 o'clock in the morning, then yeah, call highway patrol. Otherwise, go get a manny-petty. Do some shopping. Enjoy the trip yourself, too. All in all, the plan sounds pretty damn solid. You've landed on a set of agreements and plans and tools that respect her autonomy while still protecting her. And if you had written and asking what you should do to prepare, we probably would have recommended something similar. So well done. Yeah, I'm with you, Jordan. I'm not too worried either, except if I were this guy and I knew that my girlfriend's mother

was uneasy about this trip, the first thing I would want to do is put her at ease. So the fact that he hasn't called the mom or FaceTime to her and been like, hey, I just want to say hi, and I want to get to know you and show you that I'm a real person who cares about your daughter. That does strike me as a little bit weird, maybe not dangerous, but maybe not the most thoughtful or attuned to the situation. And that is something to factor in and keep an eye on a little bit. It's funny. I thought I was rambling earlier, so I didn't say anything about this, but I violently agree with that, right? Because if I'm this dude, and it's hard because I'm 44 now, I'm like, when I was 23, would I have thought of this? And the answer is probably not, I guess. But as a 43-year-old pretending to be a 23-year-old

for the purposes of this question. If I'm this dude, I'm insisting that we all go out to dinner together on the very first night. Maybe I meet her real quick and we hug and all that stuff, but I meet her with mom. And I'm like, hi, mom.

And then we all go to dinner. And yeah, we're gonna wanna like smooch right away and it's gonna be not what we had envisioned, but it's also like, you know, plenty of time for that. Potentially our whole lives for that, right? So the charm offensive you're about to see, if this is me,

it is gonna rival Nor, It's going to be D-Day of winning over mom, okay? He could even put his phone under tracking if he wanted to. Like, hey, I'm going to temporarily share my location with you so that you know where we are. I don't know if you have it set up for your daughter, but I just want you to feel safe, know where we are, you know, so you know we're not racing around at all hours and all that stuff. I would just be so cautious about that. But again, I'm 44 and have kids and I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a 23-year-old who's, like, not thinking about this stuff. And I'm not sure it's fair to be like, oh, he should be thinking about this stuff.

I don't think that's realistic. There's another interesting detail that's jumping out of me, which is this guy's mother. She's struggling with an addiction, which is really sad. So I am glad that your daughter won't be in that environment. They're getting their own Airbnb, which I think that's the right move. But I wonder what impact his mother has had on him over the years and how that shaped him as a person, because growing up with an addicted parent is, as we all know, very intense and traumatic, and it often creates a series of traumas.

And the dynamic between a child and a parent with an addiction is complex. There can be a lot of caretaking, sometimes a lot of enmeshment. There's often a codependency at work in those relationships. So I can't help but connect up a few dots here, and I am speculating, I know, but I do wonder if there's some connection between how intense and all-consuming their relationship is and his experience growing up with a mother like this. Yeah, interesting, because that could just be that schmooopee phase I mentioned earlier, or it might be another version of the codependency that he might have experienced with his mom. Possibly. And that is a concern, but it's not the concern that our friend here seems to be most interested in. This is not what's keeping her up at night. But then also,

this stuff is not really her business. But anyway, none of this means that this guy is bad or dangerous by any means. Again, it's not his fault that his mom is like this. For all we know, he's totally aware of this and he's working on it and his relationship with her daughter is very different. It's just an interesting detail in context. Right. Good point. And that might be something that she can encourage her daughter to learn more about on this trip because I have to think that's a big part of who this guy is. So the reality is there's no way to 100% know that this guy won't harm your daughter. All you guys can do is be as thorough and rigorous as possible and do your recon. My hope is that your daughter's judgment and your homework gives you a high degree of

confidence that this guy isn't a risk, which I think you have some good reasons to believe. I would also remember that in another version of events, your daughter would be dating this guy and making this plan without your involvement, maybe even without your knowing at all? And that's her right as an adult, even if it's kind of terrifying. It also doesn't mean she's fully equipped to make the best decisions.

It doesn't mean bad things can't happen to her, but she's at an age now where she's allowed to do what she wants. Part of her job is individuating from you in a healthy way and enjoying a larger degree of privacy. I mean, look, if she goes to this art school she got into, which is super exciting, by the way,

presumably she's going to be making plans with all sorts of people that you don't know about. Certainly, if she's not living at home while she attends. And that's what she should be doing. Yes, that's exactly right. So to that point, rather than fixating on your fear and anxiety, I would use them to educate and empower your daughter to make the best possible judgments, the best possible choices for herself. You will not always be there to protect her. You can't, and you shouldn't. Like Jordan said, this trip is a very big deal for both of you, because it's the first big experience that she's carving out for herself as an adult, or mostly for herself. But this is really

an opportunity for her to learn how to step into her individuality, her autonomy, and for you as a mom to learn how to let go and trust her. You're not going to find the piece you're looking for by keeping your daughter close and never allowing her to travel and forbidding her from dating people you don't know. You're going to find it by helping her learn and grow and become, you know, a discerning, well-equipped adult so that you can be confident she's taking the best possible care of herself. And that might be really hard for you to come to terms with. It is for most loving parents, I have to imagine. But it's especially hard for you, given your special relationship with your daughter. But letting her grow up and live her life, you know, that isn't losing her,

and it's not necessarily subjecting her to all kinds of terrible risks out there. It's allowing her to flourish, you know, flourish responsibly. And you guys can still be close, but the terms of that closeness are probably going to change over the next few years. And that is exactly what they're supposed to do. And if there are any shades of enmeshment or codependency between you guys, which I think there might be, which is not unusual in parent-child relationships like yours, then part of the anxiety that you're experiencing these days might be just seeing that and starting to rewrite it, which again, that is so important.

Agreed. So just keep using these feelings to plan responsibly, which you're doing, and then work through them on your own. Also, you mentioned that your daughter's in therapy, she likes her therapist. I assume she's talked to her therapist about this guy and about this trip. and if that therapist is even halfway decent, they've probably also been helping your daughter think through this and make the best decisions here. That's my hope anyway.

So I don't recommend overstepping with your daughter or meddling in her therapy, but I do think it's fair for you to say, hey, have you talked to Paul about this? Does he have any good insight? And if she's like, actually, yeah, we've been talking about this for six weeks, so I ran it all by him.

That might also help put you at ease. So I hope you all have a good trip, a safe trip, an interesting trip. You're doing so much right here. And I think once you meet this guy, you have a little bit more data that they're doing okay, you'll feel a lot better. And you guys will embark on the next chapter of your relationship, which is really great.

Intense for a parent, but great. And if he shows up at the airport and he's wearing those BDSM yoga coat leather bracelets that Gabe has, I would just run. Classic red flag right there. I don't know. It depends who his bead guy is. Depends who the bead guy is, yeah. If it's beat as, you're good.

You know, if it's Micah Shannon, your daughter's in good hands. If you're, you know, if not, yeah, maybe catch the next flight home. That's right. That's right. And let me know how it goes so I can prepare for this situation in 16 years with Juniper. I am taking notes over here. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know like and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in the six minute networking course, which is free. It is not

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right to your inbox once a week. We are revamp in the format. We're going to make it nice and tight and short and fun. And so I invite you to come check it out. Sign up at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts at Jordan Harbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel and Mizrahi. Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you

hear on the show, and I'm not your big guy either. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger show. There is no pill that cures malignant narcissism. There just isn't. You can't take a pill for it. Character flaws are fixed and rigid, and they remain with us,

and it would take heroic efforts on the part of the person to overcome these things. Only they can fix themselves. The point is things will not get better, so document everything. The person with the best set of records of events wins. I have to be honest and say, look, as you said, Jordan, it's not going to get better. Things will get worse, and unfortunately it usually does. And the person that pays the price are those that are closest to the malignant narcissist. Once I teach you to look for these behaviors, you will never forget them.

you will be more aware and you will be able to notice them. And when we begin to accumulate these behaviors and we aggregate them and they go into that checklist, you know, there's 130-something items on the predator checklist, and you say, wow, this person tops 50. This individual will put you at risk. They will victimize you. It doesn't matter where you're at. There is no safe place. There is no safe church.

All it takes is one predator to undo all of that. For more on dangerous personality types and how to spot them before they can do damage to you or those you love, check out episode 135 with Joe Navarro here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this hard, so let me save you some. time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way.

Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. the through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting.

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