The Jordan Harbinger Show - 998: Workplace Fails and Bad Boss Tales | Feedback Friday

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Dysfunctional workplaces and abyssmal bosses litter the modern corporate hellscape. What stories will you share from the rubble? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [e-mail]. Now let's dive in! On This Week's Feedback Friday, We Discuss: You worked at a company with a problematic culture focused on self-help teachings and inappropriate therapy sessions led by an unqualified manager. How'd that turn out? You're working at a door-to-door sales company where underperforming employees face unusual (and likely illegal) consequences. Will you be able to stomach the challenges that await you? Your bad boss manipulated and mistreated you, hoping you'd fail when you left for a new job. But what happened when the tables were turned? As a young journalist, you dealt with an alcoholic, sexually harassing boss at a small-town newspaper. How far did things have to go before karma took the wheel? You're a young employee at a luxury car garage, where the eccentric owner's behavior is becoming increasingly erratic. Will a chance encounter with a client change the course of your career? Your boss denied you time off to visit a dying loved one, forcing you to choose between work and family. How will this decision impact you in the long run? Years ago, your boss made your work life miserable. Now, he's interviewing for a job at your thriving company. What will you do? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [e-mail]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi. Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/998 This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the spiritual gangster himself back in the prison of the United States, serving time for his immaculate vibes. Wow, masterpiece. Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. In our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form.

conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from arms dealers to undercover economic hitmen, astronauts, hostage negotiators, tech luminaries, and legendary Hollywood directors. This week, we had Christopher on. This guy, incredible story. He's a Marine that ended up breaking into the North Korean embassy in Spain to try and rescue people who wanted to defect. And the whole thing goes, well, haywire, to say the least. And now he's facing extradition to Spain, where in North Korea once, to kill him. It's just an insane, insane story. That's a two-parter this week. Definitely check that out if you haven't done so yet. On Fridays, though, we share stories offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and mercilessly roast Gabe for his choice in tank tops and or wristbands, both of which

you have on right now. By the way, we've been having a little problem with our ad insertion. Blah, blah, blah, it's a new computer system that is putting way too many ads in some episodes of the show, and in other episodes, it's putting in like five of the same ad. So if you're hearing like five Airbnb ads or four ads for some random energy drink. Definitely let me know which episode it's in because we are trying to fix those and it's looking for needles and haystacks. It's really, it's fun. It's been a lot of fun. And my whole team is really enjoying this one. So if you can report those to me and tell me where they are and what episodes we can fix them, thank you so much for understanding. And we are not switching to a 16 ads per hour ad model. That is a mistake. So I appreciate y'all's

patience and your help and helping us squash these bugs. Before we dive in today, I have got a funny story for it was actually is it a rumor is it a story hard to say so on episode 944 the episode about the obstacles to colonizing mars my guest zach weiner smith he made a comment that he didn't believe anyone had ever had sex in space and there's apparently all this literature about like how no it's never happened for reasons well this listener actually wasn't even for reasons that i don't remember this listener wrote to me saying actually my brother recently retired from nassah and he worked for, technically worked for some subcontractor, whatever, with the Hubble program. And he's like, the guy refuses to name names.

But he was certain and repeatedly assured him that a male and a female astronaut pair did, in fact, have sex in space. Oh, damn. That is good intergalactic tea right there. Well, interplanetary, I suppose. Is it interplanetary? Definitely not intergalactic. You're going to quibble with the tea?

Fine. I'm going to quib. Okay, to quote this listener, granted this cannot be documented, but do you really think it didn't happen or someone didn't get off on being the first? I mean, people risk salaries we cannot imagine, marriages and reputations to have sex

in an office building. That's true. That's a fair point. People risk it all to bang in a cubicle. And I don't even think these astronauts were like married or whatever potential. I don't think, I don't know if they were cheating or anything.

I just wanted to share that with you guys because I find it hilarious that we have some behind the scenes scuttle butt about people banging in space. So we're going to have to let Zach know that too. All right. We're doing something a little bit different. today. A couple months back, we asked y'all for your best bad boss stories or your worst bad boss

stories, as a case may be. And boy, did you guys deliver. We got way more emails than we can take on this show. And Gabe, I realize now, since I'm like always two weeks, three weeks behind fan mail, there's stuff in there. So we have more that we didn't even see. We just had a ton of response. I wanted to share some favorites with you on today's episode, not just because they're funny and weird and cringe, and sometimes even a bit shocking, but also because we wanted to see what we can learn from dysfunctional work situations, how to manage a bad boss, when to put up with one, when to leave, how to walk away with the right lessons. And maybe most importantly, what role our work should play in our lives, which is a big question for me and Gabe, given that we are,

as you probably know, workaholics who love what we do but can sometimes lose sight of, you know, actual life. So this episode is going to be a little different from our usual feedback Friday. A few more laughs, a little less structure, but we promise to serve you up a few gems along the way so you're not screaming at us on the treadmill or in line at the post office for not delivering the goods. So we got you, I promise. Gabe, what is the first nightmare out of the bad boss mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I used to work in sales for a privately owned medical device company, and the culture was extremely odd. It centered around the teachings of our best practices, or BP, for short, led by a woman, I'll call Wendy. Instead of learning how to sell products or have

difficult conversations with clients, we learned about flow state, how there are three different versions of reality, how to work through attachments, how to see the same thing differently, and so on. Oh, God. I can already see where this one's going. Gabe, I'm getting strong cafe cult vibes from this letter so far. You know, the three different versions of reality, by the way, that is one of those things that people who read stuff off Instagram or like read one book on self-help think is really deep. Super profound, bro. There's three versions of reality. Your version. which is based on your perception, my version based on my perception,

and then the shared version that's based on both our perceptions. And it's supposed to blow your mind until you realize they're just talking about literally seeing and hearing things like everyone else. Well, by that logic, there are infinite realities, actually. Oh, dude. Bro, I never thought about that. Anyway, yes, exactly.

All right, let's strap in and see where this goes. All right. For the first couple of years, I appreciated these meetings and found some of the material useful in my professional and personal life. Then COVID happened, and the culture got really weird. BP had a concept that one plus one equals a bigger one,

which I took to mean that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Hey there. Don't be coming up with a clever phrase to describe one plus one equals a bigger one. Yeah, ooh, that's not exactly groundbreaking. That's not even old wine and new bottles. that's river water in used mason jars. Yeah. It sounds like something Michael Scott would say.

Oh, yeah. Something I always like to say is one plus one equals a bigger one. And then they just cut to Jim like staring into the camera. I'm not saying anything. Totally. So she goes on. But no, Wendy meant it literally. In a meeting in the early days of COVID,

she excitedly predicted that, quote, The world is finally waking up. This is the universe's way of pushing us toward a higher being. Watch, I'm telling you, in a couple of years, they're going to start teaching kids in school that one plus one equals a bigger one, not two. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. I'm sorry, but I don't want to be crossing any bridges those children would build using that kind of math. No, me neither.

Regular actual math for me too, please. I don't even like math. I'm not great at it, but I do know that one plus one does not just equal a bigger one. I want the kind of math that, you know, is math. Yeah, fair enough. And so does she. Just to be clear, that was from the letter. That was not me chiming in.

The letter goes on. There's so much crazy out there, she would say. But in here, we're safe. We need to set the example and walk the out, meaning navigate out of stuck points, heel, etc. So that others can follow us as well. What's walk the out? I don't know, but it's a great phrase.

Walk in the out. Sounds like I'm going to need to walk the out of this. bullshit Zoom call and get a different job if I'm in a meeting where somebody says something like that. So she goes on, I started going to therapy in early 2021 to work through a really bad breakup. And when I told my colleague, she said, why don't you talk to Wendy? Everyone in the office was encouraged to have one-on-ones with her, work through what they called attachments, or talk about anything, really. Wendy is not a licensed therapist.

So I thought that was ridiculous and concerning. Super inappropriate. She's a literal, literal Lydia, just all up in everybody's. business. I can help you. Oh my God, she is, isn't she? I didn't even think about that. Yeah, New Lydia just drops. An example of an attachment that was frowned upon was when sales reps asked management about customers' product back orders. During one rep's exit interview, he said, why is it so hard to answer a question about the product we're selling? I don't want to be told to talk to Wendy to figure out what childhood trauma led me to have an attachment to back orders.

an attachment to back orders. That's so good. Yeah, that's great. An attachment to back orders. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to actually have a brain and work at a place like this? Unbelievable. So this sales rep is going to her like, hey, I'm having to tell customers that's going to take longer to get their blood pressure cuff or whatever. You know, when can they expect it?

And Wendy's like, ooh, you know, you're really attached to promises. We should talk about your relationship with your mom. Yeah, it's super inappropriate. and unnecessary. I feel like I need a blood pressure cuff after this letter. But damn it, they're back ordered. They're back ordered. That's another attachment, Jordan. You should look at that. Another attachment was time. So meetings with Wendy could go on for four plus hours. If you were hungry, tired, thinking about going to the gym, anything like that. You were not in a flow state. And Wendy would be all over you. This lady's the worst. What a colossal waste of time.

So my guess is this lady is a huge narcissist and loved being the center of attention. So she weaponizes this attachment thing to bully her employees into giving her the spotlight. Like, yeah, I'm not in the flow state. I'm hungry and I'm tired and I want to go to the gym. Why am I? I don't need to be in a flow state when I'm four hours into getting a dressing down from somebody who did an online coaching certificate. No thank you. Yeah, you say flow state.

I say more stage time for you. Yeah. What a piece of work. Yeah. I'm a little gobsmacked by this. Sorry you're hungry and you want to catch a 6 p.m. hot yoga class, but you really need to listen to me pontificate about how our sales this quarter are going to come from the astral realm. It's ridiculous. Wow. She really came to life for me in that moment. Then in 2022, we started interviewing for a sales coordinator. After the interview, we all huddled in the conference room to decide if this candidate was the right fit. I thought she was great. She had relevant experience and a chipper attitude. But my CEO with her resume in hand said, I don't know what happened to her. in a past life regarding sales, but she is not it.

Wow. I feel like there's a lawsuit in there somewhere, discrimination based on past life identity. Dude, imagine disqualifying somebody because they were a mediocre salesperson like 200 years ago. Like, they didn't move enough silk in Imperial Japan or whatever. And now they don't get to clock out of your office. The other thing is, past life stuff never made any sense. What if you're an octopus? Oh, you didn't sling enough clams on the ocean floor back then.

Sorry. I mean, none of it, none of it makes sense. It never holds up. Should have pumped up those numbers during the Paleozoic era. Yeah. Bro. That's your fault. So she goes on, I was shocked, and my anxiety grew to the point that I was not on any more interview panels. Things came to a head during one of our monthly BP meetings with Wendy, where she started talking about trauma. I pushed back because I don't think trauma is an appropriate topic in a work meeting led by somebody who is not a licensed therapist. She got very passionate and started crying and said, We need to walk the out so that children who are kidnapped and abused across the ocean can walk the out.

We need to do it for them. It was so dramatic and intense, and I was so disturbed by this meeting for weeks. Yeah, I would be too. This woman is straight up nuts. Also, it sounds like she might be listening to this podcast because, I don't know, we talk about that stuff a lot. Not the walking the out, but the kidnapped and abused children thing is a, and we've had a couple episodes about that. This woman is crazy, not just woo-woo, not just kooky narcissism. she's legitimately insane and ridiculous.

So weird. What a freak. A few days later, I confided to a colleague that I didn't feel like I fit there anymore and that I thought what Wendy said was wildly inappropriate. In the next BP meeting, Wendy started by saying that it had come to her attention that somebody was upset by some things she said at the last meeting and reminded us that if she says something that doesn't make sense to us, we should throw it out. There was no accountability from her or the company and I did not feel protected.

Basically, Wendy was a cult leader, and the work culture resembled a cult. Yeah, literally. This is like early nexium, but with sales quotas and somebody who's not nowhere near as smart or charismatic as that Keith Reneery guy who's in prison for the rest of his life now. Thankfully, I accepted my first outside sales rep job about two months after that incident. The good part about this experience is that it led me to the realization that I wanted to be an outside sales rep, which is what I'm currently doing in a very different field. For that, I'm very grateful for my time at that company, signed stunned on the run and done being

the bigger one. Well, what a story. I cannot believe this is a unit of a real company that didn't go out of business immediately. How did corporate not get wind of this? I mean, that is just beyond me. Oh, I think we know the answer to that because the CEO was signing off. Didn't the CEO say about that candidate that she wasn't a fit because of past life? So I feel like this philosophy went up and down the chain.

This just shows that if you get a bunch of talented people to work really hard, they can pull dead weight pretty far. Wendy was doing everything in her power to ruin this, wasting people's time, dragging people into emotional nonsense, making sure that hardworking people quit because they didn't want to deal with her crap. But she just still had enough talented people to keep the ship afloat, which is wild. It's interesting to go from a job like that into a normal work culture. That must be such a load off.

Like, oh, I come to work, I just do my job, I take a lunch hour, I don't have to sit in a sharing circle with my boss and talk about the time my friend in middle school's dad brushed my hand in a way that made me feel really weird and that's why I'm not hitting my Q3 sales target. What a relief. It really does sound like one of those self-help cults you hear about, but it's some weird synthesis of actual company and self-help cult, which is just blowing my mind. I'm shocked this is not an MLM. Do we know it's not an MLM? Because it sounds like an MLM in a lot of ways. We don't know for sure.

but medical device sales, MLM, I don't know. I've never heard of that. I don't know. I don't think so. This actually sounds cookier than the cafe cult story from a few months back. I mean, those people, they just kind of wanted to live together on a commune and sling bougie macho lattes and be friends. These people have an actual curriculum.

They have a philosophy. There's a whole weird system here, even if Wendy is kind of making it up as she goes along from the sound of it. I get how young people can get sucked into this. It's one of your first jobs. Maybe you're more susceptible to this stuff. I'm guessing that everybody who worked there was either young or was like, oh, this is the job I got after I got laid off from another job and they stayed there until they could find something else.

I'm not imagining most people with two brain cells stuck around. This is a waste of time. You got to get out of there as soon as you can. If you're in a job like this, don't feel like you need to stick it through. This is just nonsense. And you should get out as soon as you can, immediately start looking for other jobs. I am so fascinated by the fact that this happened at a medical device company. I feel like if you heard about this happening at an essential oils company, you'd be like,

that makes sense. People who work here who are passionate about the product might be a little hippie-ish. They might be out there. And by the way, some of the stuff Wendy is teaching, okay, putting aside her personality and the way she ran meetings and all of that, it's not that controversial. I mean, it's funny you brought up nexium because I remember when we talked about nexium on the show, you and I were both like, you know, in the early days, a lot of this curriculum didn't seem that crazy. It's sort of like cognitive behavioral therapy rehashed. Yeah.

It's very traditional self-help, just repackaged with new language or whatever. That's kind of what I'm hearing from Wendy. Like when she says the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but in different language, I mean, yeah, I could see that potentially being a nice concept in an office. But once you're leading meetings for four plus hours that don't need to happen, or you're trying to do therapy with your employees, which is, to me, not just a waste of time, but also a flagrant violation. of boundaries in the workplace, that's when it becomes a different thing. And I think this person was so smart to be aware of the difference between those two workplaces and to get out when she did. Yeah, so well done getting out of there. I think it must be, again, a really nice contrast to have a

normal, real healthy workplace after something like this. And maybe this is a right of passage. It gave you a great story. It also showed you what your boundaries should be at work. And good for you for getting out before you wasted, I don't know, half a decade of your life in a place like that. Now, it's time for us to walk the out, right into the crazy cult of killer deals on the products and services that support this show. You know, one plus one equals a bigger one. We're doing it for the children. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show.

Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here. All of the links, deals, and discount codes are all in one searchable, clickable place, Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. After studying graphic design in college, I landed an interview for a design and sales position at this company. When I got there, a few people were sitting in chairs in the waiting room, which was very typical, some decorations on the walls, a few plants. Eventually, I get taken

back into what looks like someone's office and one of the managers interviews me. About a week later, they offer me the job telling me that I'll start in sales and get to work on graphic design later on. I was excited about the opportunity and I took the job. On my first day, I head into the waiting room again and through a new door I hadn't been in yet. It's a fairly large room, but when I tell you that there was nothing in this room, there was nothing in this room. Four white walls, not a single chair, desk, or decoration on the wall. The only thing in this room was a whiteboard. The room quickly fills with 10 to 15 older men all dressed up and we start our first meeting. I find out that we will be dropped off in some neighborhood going door-to-door selling new roofs and windows to residents.

Our schedule was to show up at the office at 6 a.m. to have our morning meeting where the boss and managers would teach us all of their sales techniques. They taught us largely by using references to how they pick up girls at the clubs, and most of it was quite inappropriate. After our meeting, they would drop us off separately in neighborhoods very far away around 10 a.m. and wouldn't pick us up until 6. I was essentially stranded in these neighborhoods in rain, snow, you name it. We worked Mondays through Saturdays, but they would make you feel bad if you didn't come in on Sundays, too. I really needed the money, and it was fully commission-based, so I forced myself to stick with it. I was quite naive starting out, and I quickly realized that they had used all the dirty sales tricks they taught us to sell me in the interview. The kicker, though, is that

every Friday was competition day. When we'd walk into the morning meeting, everyone's names would be up that whiteboard and they would force us to challenge someone. At the end of the day, they would tally up everyone's sales and whoever got the lowest sales was essentially tortured in some weird way. One week they stuffed those giant marshmallows full of wasabi, which you didn't know until you ate one. Another week they made everyone lie down in the parking lot and cracked eggs on their face so it would go in their nose. Another week they bought a live squid and slapped everyone in the face with it. It was wild, to say the least. What in the 1980s fraternity hazing is going on here? I don't know. So if you sold fewer roof shingles than the other guy, you get waterboarded with egg whites?

What are you talking about? I feel like there are some restaurants in L.A. that will do that. But the live squid is disturbing, mostly for the squid. I feel so bad for the squid. First of all, that's horrifying on so many levels. Second, that is almost certainly illegal. Yeah, dude. Come on. Imagine being that squid. And then 30 years later, you going for a job interview with Wendy? And she's like, ooh, sorry, I don't love what happened to you in a past squid life regarding sales. Can you imagine what that squid was thinking? One second, it's in the ocean, blobbing around.

The next thing, it's in this late capitalist dystopian nightmare office with no furniture being flung at desperate salesman's faces by some wannabe Ben Affleck. Oh, my God. What a world, huh? This is why I'm vegan, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah. I thought you were vegan because it gave you a sense of superiority in line at Whole Foods.

I mean, it does. That's mostly it, but also the whole... caring about animals thing, you know? So he goes on. Fair. Luckily, this really motivated me, so I avoided all of that. I stayed for a few months, but I was miserable. I eventually quit over text because at that point, I had lost all respect for the boss and managers, signed odd at this flawed squad and done with this broad fraud after almost being slapped with a cephalopod. Ooh, nice. That was a good one. This is next level bizarre, dude. This office is like bad

Wolf of Wall Street boiler room with no furniture. Seriously. Glenn and Gary, Glenn Ross with a traumatic brain injury. Seriously, yeah. Put the squid down. Wasabi marshmallows are for closers only. Yeah. If anybody's completely confused about what we're talking about, please, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, amazing movie. It's Pacino, Alec Baldwin, Kevin Spacey, Jack Lemmon, Ed Harris. I'm not a movie guy like who loves all these old, but it's in a, the writing is amazing. It's like this dystopian, there's that word again, sales nightmare, where it's all trickery and smoke and mirrors. There's so much wrong here.

First of all, run. If you get manipulated to join something, jobs are, they're recruiting you. The idea is they're asking you to do something that matches your talents. If a company does a bait and switch like this, he thought he was going to be doing design work at some point and then they shuffle him into door-to-door sales,

that's not like, oh, everybody has to go through this. You know, it's not Tom's shoes where they're like, we want you to go drop off shoes with us in a poor community in Guadalajal. a mollus so you see what we're doing. This is, hey, we're going to give you this job. Just kidding. You're going to be doing a different job that nobody really wants and you either take it or leave it and you're already here. That is definitely worrisome to say the least. Also, if there's abuse or hazing of any kind, get out of their ASAP. That's creepy as hell. And if the abuse involves

animals, you've got to definitely run. I mean, psychopaths abuse animals. That's not something normal people do at work. That is beyond weird. I agree. I mean, like, look, competition is fine if it's motivating, right? Like, by the way, top salesman this week gets a new iPad. That's one thing. But if they're like worst salesman this week gets their head shaved in the parking lot and has to get really intimate with a underwater creature, that's a different thing. I don't like it. If a company relies more on that kind of competition and stress and anxiety to produce results, as opposed to like, I'm going to teach you how to sell people on something they need, and I'm going to empower you to do your best work, those are completely

different situations. That is a red flag, and that is a place you do not want to be. The thing for me here is I, I'm so curious if any of those customers got their roofs or windows. The whole thing sounds like a scam to me. Maybe. If you're treating people like that that work with you, these are people that you see all the time, that you work with all the time. I bet this whole thing was a scam from the jump. That's what I think. It reminds me, have you seen those. like alpha male boot camps on Instagram or anything, Gabriel, you getting any of these? What is that? These are really stupid.

They're like, I assume some sort of offshoot of the pickup artist stuff from a decade and change ago. It's like they'll have some guy who is, hires like ex-military guys that were in their prime 20 years ago. And they have vulnerable guys who probably had bad relationships with their dad come in. And they just abuse these guys for like eight days, 10 days, whatever, however long this thing is. and they're making you do crazy physical fitness stuff, but you see the videos and it's like,

that guy's gonna have a heart attack. He's overweight. This is not an eight week or eight month training program for military. These guys come in and they're couch potatoes and they're making them like run around in the ocean and hold their arms above their head for hours at a time. And you can, it's a matter of time before one of these guys dies and has a heart attack right there.

And of course there's no medical guy. There's nobody medical standing by. It's some fly-by-night operation with like three fake drill instructors. And they're just yelling at these guys. telling them they're worthless and all this stuff. Guys pay for this. This is the corporate version of that. You have to have somebody in there

who's either too young to know better or has absolutely a flawed sense of self-worth and low self-esteem. And you can get these people to do that kind of stuff through humiliation and control. That's what this is. I don't even think we need to explain

why this is unhealthy and bad. I assume that this guy did not stay long at that company. It would also explain why the office was not really an office. I mean, there's like, a waiting room in one room without any furniture, doesn't sound like the money is going to an actual enterprise.

They're probably just pocketing the money and running and hoping it lasts as long as it can. I had a lawyer back in New York. We'd say, like, can we come to your office and meet you? And he'd go, sure, sure, sure. We realized quite quickly was he would go, yeah, yeah, yeah, 5, 5, 5, 5, Broadway. And we're like, okay, so we show up,

and this building is straight up closed. You can get in the front door, but everything's locked, and he would just try doors until something opened. And he'd be like, shh, shh, shh, yeah, yeah, they don't like us any half hours.

And I'm like, you clearly just found a building that had an open, unlocked door. Oh, wow. You're walking us around here to pretend that you have an office in here. None of the office doors are opening, so you're standing out in the hallway. This is not your office.

This guy was your lawyer? Oh, yeah. Well, we dumped him, obviously. But it was just like, it was so interesting. That's amazing. There was a lot of stuff like that. I mean, we're here. What else you got?

Tell me. We tried to fire him. And he told the judge, they can't fire me. The judge was like, what are you talking about? Of course your clients could fire you. You know, they could stop working with you. So we had another lawyer go in and shows up to that particular hearing. And we have our like real lawyer there now.

And that lawyer shows up. And in front of the judge goes, you know what? I don't care. Take them. They screwed me and they're going to screw you too. And he just storms out of the courtroom. And the judge was like, so that happened. And our lawyer was like, okay.

I mean, look, I can't believe it. This is years and years and years and years and years ago. the guy was actually a real character. And this is all funny to me now. It's hilarious. It's just a really interesting guy. I'm sure that he's cleaned up his act, you know, and he's an upstanding citizen. So I'm not saying anything negative about this man.

It's just a quirky story. Wow. This dude makes Saul Goodman look like a Supreme Court justice. You know, at some level, I will say, he was probably a young guy at that time. I mean, offices in New York are expensive. My friend and I, we were running the business. We were kind of like, okay, we know this isn't your. office, but I kind of admire the hustle here. Maybe this is a guy you do actually want representing you

because he's willing to be like, pull out all the stuff. I mean, it really is sort of better call Saul in nature. And I'm like, you know, we might need a guy who can pull a few tricks to get this handled. You can reach us Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your family's being targeted by a literal murderous psychopath, or you're a sex addict being extorted for child support after having threesomes with a lesbian couple as their unofficial sperm donor, man, Gabe, I never thought that sequence of words would come out of my mouth. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, in one of my first jobs out of college, I worked for a boss who constantly overloaded me. Whenever I tried to offload some of my responsibilities, the boss would get mad and tell me that every responsibility I had was high priority and should not be delegated to others who had more bandwidth without his permission. I finally had enough and found a similar job in another industry. When I told my boss, he was furious. He told me that I was making the biggest mistake of my life and that I would regret this decision forever. He then told me that I should

not expect to come back to this company very easily after I failed in my new one. Nice. What a class act this guy. About three years later, I was thriving in the role and the company was very successful. I was promoted multiple times and was looking to expand my team. Good for you, man. That must have felt amazing. After having a boss like that in your ear, nicely done. After the recruiters filtered through a few resumes, I was scheduled to interview an interesting candidate who turned out to be my former boss.

Oh, that is awesome. I love this. Honestly, this sounds like one of those made-up stories you read on LinkedIn, like a fable where they're trying to teach you something. Those are so lame. Yeah, they're always like, I was late. to a job interview because I stopped to feed a dog that was starving on the side of the road in the rain. I showed up 45 minutes late to the interview soaked from head to toe. I walked in fully

expecting to be rejected on the spot. Turns out the interviewer was the dog. That's what those are always like that. And you're like, I'll take things that never happened for 500 dollars. Oh, that's so good. And then everyone clapped. I love that this happened in real life. So he goes on, I gave him a legitimate shot at the job. But in the back of my mind, I I knew how this guy acted, despite his tone being totally different during the interview. We didn't offer him the job. Dark Jordan is grinning so much right now. So good, straight into my veins.

After the interview, he wanted to stay in touch and tried to add me on LinkedIn. Of course. Perfect. Yes. He told a mutual friend that we were good friends and we go way back. Not sure where he got that from, but I guess karma hits sooner than later. It sure does. Man. Oh, that's beautiful. signed burned and spurned, but feeling affirmed once those tables were turned. Well, what can I add to this perfect story, to this flawless modern fable? Nothing.

This boss is a real jerk. He not only managed you poorly and treated you like crap, but then he actively hoped that you'd fail in your new job and said he wouldn't help if you needed to come back and actually enjoyed holding that over your head, and then bam, a few years later, he's on the other side of the table from you. Moments like this, they do really make me wonder if there is some sort of phasinger. or karma. And if there is, it just has an amazing sense of humor. I think this one speaks for itself, but just to fully appreciate the lesson here, be kind and gracious and positive with everyone you come across in life, especially through work. Come on. Yeah, I agree. In this life and also, I would say,

in your past lives, you know. Oh, yeah, especially in your past life, just in case you end up sitting in front of Wendy one day. You never know. You don't want that to disqualify you. Exactly. But yeah, always end things with people on decent terms, no matter who they are, no matter what level they are. Assuming they're decent, of course, if there's a Wendy or a squid-slapping salesman or whatever, that's a different story. But you never know how things are going to play out. The world is very, very small. And within industries and functions, it gets even smaller.

I mean, this a-hole shot himself in the foot by treating our friend here poorly. And then, when he needs a leg up, he didn't really get it. No, he didn't. Of course he didn't. It's a really interesting example of digging the well, isn't it? Kind of, slash, not pouring sand in the well and covering it over for the rest of your life because you're such a petty vindictive jerk that you can. can't see you might need a drink from it one day.

Ridiculous. For sure. My other takeaway from this one is don't buy too much into a bad boss's opinion of you. You know, it would have been so easy for our boy here to believe what this boss said, you know, that this was the only way to work, that everything is a priority all the time, that leaving was a mistake, that he needed him. I love that our friend here just charted his own path. He worked hard.

He proved this guy wrong. And by the way, not because he had something to prove. He probably wasn't even thinking about this old boss. But just because, you know, he's being a great employee. And also, when a boss is a top shelf, that's even more reason not to put too much stock in their opinions and predictions. Because honestly, like, who are they? Agreed.

You killed it here, man. Well done. I'm so glad you had this moment. They just don't come around too often. They're so sweet. This guy dug his own grave. And good. I hope he learned something from it.

And bravo to you also for not being like, hey, Tony. Remember me? Right? You are professional. You are humble. and that's way better because rejecting him from the job outright, like, oh, you set foot in my office, you're never getting this job. That's going to make the guy go, oh, this guy from back in the day. But giving him a real shot and then considering him and then someone else is a committee rejecting him,

that means he failed on his own merits. Not that this dude has the introspective chops and self-awareness to appreciate that, but still, nicely done. I'm sure, don't worry. I'm sure he still blames you only for not getting that job, but really nicely done. All right, what's next? Gabe and Jordan. About 25 years ago, I worked for a local newspaper in a small town, covering a variety of beats and doing some editing. The editor was amazing, extremely professional, involved in our community, and well-liked. After a few years, he retired and the publisher hired a new editor. Let's call him Mike. Two weeks after he was hired, Mike called me into his office and started asking me inappropriate questions. It began with how long you've been married. Oh, five years. Do you still give your husband blow jobs? Oof. Oof. What?

I was 24 and had never experienced this before. Wow. I blushed and told him it was not a conversation I wanted to have with him. When I got up to leave, I could feel him staring. I didn't know what to do, so I didn't tell anyone. Oh, man, I am so sorry you went through that. That is creepy as hell. It's awful.

Speaking of walking the out, dude. Yeah, this guy, zero class. He sounds like a caricature of a harassing bus. hate to see you leave, but I love to watch you go, hey. Like, what a dumbass. The second time he called me in, I left the door open against his request. As he leaned over the desk whispering to me, the smell of stale alcohol wafted over. My mind went blank, and I just remember thinking, okay, this guy is really a douche. When I came back to reality, he handed me his coffee cup and told me to get him a cup of coffee. When I sat it on his desk, he said,

where's the tea bag? I need a tea bag in my coffee. I told a coworker what he wanted, and she told me that this was a common thing for alcoholics to do. When I told him we had no tea bags, he walked to the kitchen and dump the coffee down the drain and left. I don't get it. Tea bag in the coffee? I don't know. Maybe extra caffeine? Or I wonder if maybe does it mask the scent of alcohol or something like that? Yeah, I have no idea. So then he just throws it out. So he's a dick and a diva and what is going on with this guy? I don't understand. I don't know. Frigin pickled, Miranda Priestley over here. Does anybody listening know what that's about? If so, hit me up. I'm Googling it. It's turning up absolutely nothing. Tea bag into coffee, alcoholics. I don't understand.

So I'm curious to know what that means or does. This kind of stuff went on for several months. I was on edge most days and did my best to avoid this man at all costs, which was almost impossible. Then one day, Mike came to work in the same wrinkled clothes from the day before. He smelled like vomit and had two black eyes. So I went to the publisher and explained that I had tried really hard to keep my head down, but this was the last straw. I told him about the inappropriate questions, that on multiple occasions he had asked me to punch out and keep working so he wouldn't have overtime in the department, that he was creating a terrible image in our community. The publisher assured me he would keep our conversation confidential and would visit the newsroom to see Mike.

Two hours into the day, Mike said he didn't feel good and left. The publisher never came. to visit. Unconscionable. Unfreaking conscionable. I wonder if they were buddies or something they had to be. This guy lasted this long there for a reason. Crazy. People in the community started talking about how Mike was belligerent at one of the bars in town, drunk beyond drunk, every night. One night, he drank so much that he puked on the bar and they kicked him out. What was once a job I loved and was proud of was now a nightmare. I went back to the publisher and asked why nothing had been done. He informed me that if I wasn't comfortable working there, I should find another job.

Today, me would not have let all of this slide, but I was young and naive. Interesting theme on today's episode. Just how much harder these bad bosses are when you're young and you're early in your career, you don't know any better. Of course. I mean, it takes time and life experience

to learn how to stand up to people like this, right? It's scary, but yeah, as you get older, it gets easier. More confidence, you know, fewer to give, I guess. There's also something to be said for frame of reference, right? when you're 22, you're 25, and somebody pits you against your coworker or hits on you in the office or whatever, it can be hard to go, hmm, no, definitely not right. You just haven't seen enough yet, but then five or ten years later, it's a lot easier to look at that and go, uh, yeah, no, I'm not putting up with this crap.

This is wrong. Although, to be fair, it can be hard at any age, especially when it comes to harassment and especially when there's a power differential. Sure. Anyway, just an interesting runner on today's episode, the age and naivete thing. I did finally quit and found a way better job. Sure. Right after I quit, Mike got into a verbal altercation at the bar and somebody called the police. Mike got in his car and tried to drive away, but ended up hitting the police car head on.

When he got out of the car, the police officer tried to detain him, and Mike threw up all over the officer. That is what finally got him fired. That's what did it? Not the obvious alcoholism, rampant sexual harassment. dude had to yak on a cop outside of the office to force the publisher to intervene. Ridiculous. That shows that it was only the perception of how bad this guy was that they cared about. They didn't care about his actions at all.

This terrible experience actually taught me how to handle uncomfortable conversations and to stand up for myself more. It also taught me that it is okay to walk away when your morals do not match your employers. It was truly a miserable time in my career, but I grew tremendously from it. signed an employee who bloomed in a dysfunctional newsroom, which went from a tomb to a professional womb. Amen, sis. This is exactly right. Leaning into healthy conflict in situations like this is 100% the right move. It's appropriate. It's necessary. It can be empowering. And any higher up who avoids difficult conversations with an employee is 100% enabling them to continue doing

terrible things. Those people should not be leaders of organizations. This publisher, of course, on my shit list, I'm so sorry he didn't protect you, and everyone else in the newsroom for that matter from this train wreck of an editor. But again, stories like these, they just scream lawsuit to me. I know this is way in the past. If it's a small town newspaper, it almost certainly doesn't even exist anymore at this point. And about the morals thing, obviously I totally agree. Although the values in question here aren't unusual or controversial. All you were asking for was, you know, not to be sexually harassed by your boss and subjected to his drunken temper tantrums. It's not like your philosophical beliefs were wildly at odds with those of the newsroom.

This is just basic workplace decency. But yes, if your ethics are totally misaligned with an employer's, it's totally fair to leave, assuming they're making the job unsustainable. Again, so very sorry that this was a miserable chapter, but I am overjoyed to hear that you grew from all this, and it's not just some sort of random scar on your psyche. That's usually how it happens. You experience some of the worst that an office could do to you, and you learn how to remove yourself from a toxic situation.

That takes guts, especially when you're young, and it takes conviction and faith that there's something better out there for you. So I'm proud of you for that. I hope that anyone else in a toxic environment taps into that courage as well. Now you're going to project a vomit on a member of the law enforcement community when you're in hot pursuit of the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you

to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors all of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, are all searchable and clickable at Jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't find a code, you're not sure if we have a code for a certain sponsor. You wonder if we can recommend something. Definitely just email me. Jordan at Jordanharbinger.com. I will happily surface that for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, when I was at university, I worked part-time at a family-run luxury car garage, working on their sales team for parts and accessories.

The owner was a very eccentric chain smoker who had poorly managed diabetes that would send him into a blind rage, at least a couple of times per week, sometimes in front of the customers. I didn't know diabetes could throw you into a rage. That almost sounds like an excuse, I'm curious, but I can already picture this guy. Some hangary red-faced Marlboro man in a wrinkled tweed suit just scream spitting at his employees while he tries to sell someone at 2004 Lamborghini Kuntok. What a nightmare.

When I first started, I was showered with praise and quickly became the office favorite. I got my own office, was let off early to catch the train, and had my driving lessons paid for by the company. I was promised one of the show cars if I passed. Soon after I joined, our teammate, manager left following a massive argument with the boss during one of his angry outbursts. He was never replaced and I was given his responsibilities, developing a new website and marketing

campaign for selling parts online. I was enjoying the work and was happy to take it on, especially given the promise of a very large salary increase if I delivered. Things were going very well and the boss begged me to drop out of university to join the business full time. He said he viewed me like a daughter and wanted me to be part of the company for a long time. I was very unhappy at university and preferred working, so I decided to suspend my studies and work for a year to fully launch and market the new parts store. Once I became a full-time employee, my boss's entire attitude towards me quickly changed. Yeah, here we go.

I couldn't do anything right. I was a distraction to the mechanics being young and pretty, and he would often remark that he didn't understand what he was paying me for. even though I built his parts website from scratch and launched with success to an international market. My driving lessons were terminated because apparently I was too flirty with the driving instructor. Ugh, another class act, this guy. So I'm guessing he had a crush on you in addition to wanting you on board full time. So he's a creepy, jealous, petty, domineering boss. So inappropriate and so predictable. These guys are all losers. The worst part was that when I was due my first paycheck as a full-time employee, I was paid half.

half my salary in cash, not even through the payroll, meaning I was unable to prove my income preventing me from getting any kind of finance or credit card. Yeah, so on top of everything, this dude is like money laundering or avoiding taxes or something. There's something very shady about this whole operation. This dude is paying his employees partly in cash. Something's not right. If you all own a car dealership or any sort of business, tell me what would be going on here. is the guy avoiding payroll tax or benefits.

That's what I assume is going on here, but I wonder if it's deeper than that. Probably slinging yay-yo out of his mercy elego. So she goes on, I realized that I had made a big mistake and started looking for other jobs, but the boss caught wind of this and dropped a vague threat

about not giving me a reference if I ever left. It became apparent that he was trying to trap me in the company. Then one day, a client of the garage, a very successful businessman, asked the office manager, what company had built the garage's parts website, as it was very impressive and he was in the market for a new website for his own business. She told him it was built by me and introduced us. He told me that I was very talented and could earn a lot of money doing websites by myself. That was a light bulb

moment for me, and I decided that it was my way out. I quietly started working on setting up my own business, quickly landed a couple of contracts, and walked out a few weeks later without giving notice. I love it. Good for you. This month will be my fifth year in business. I'm now 26, and the day I bought my very own Range Rover was the best F-U moment of my life. Did he give you a discount? Wouldn't it be amazing if she bought it from him? Yeah, also terrible, because you can only imagine what kind of shady this that guy's involved in.

I know, amazing. She like throws down a briefcase, I'm paying for this in cash. You know cash, right? Signed, love bombed by my boss, who became very cross, which resulted in his life. loss, but allowed me to straight floss. Oof, what a tail. And what an awful dynamic you had with this guy. What a piece of crap.

The fact that he was in luxury car sales, just, there's some irony there. Just the idea that somebody, this declasset, could be involved in something so classy in the first place. So something so classet. So class. I'm so glad you brought that word back. But yeah, it's interesting. We've taken a decent amount of letters about love bombing partners, but I don't think we've ever heard about a love bombing boss.

Now, I was kind of thinking about that. it's fascinating how the same dynamic can play out in a professional setting. This guy obviously wanted to win her over. He wanted to keep her close. He wanted her to depend on him. You know, hey, drop out of school. You can't possibly do this website job and all the time you work here. And he did all of these things to, like in a sense to seduce her kind of. And at first it worked. But then once he got what he wanted or was able to control her a little bit, the switch flipped and suddenly she was a problem. It's just very textbook. But what's truly fascinating to me is that the other guy left. She picked up the responsibilities with the website.

She crushes it, and that puts her on this amazing path. I mean, what are the odds of that? That's incredible. Talk about karma. You were served up this incredible opportunity in a truly crappy situation, and then you rose to the occasion and ran with it and delivered. And you delivered so hard that a customer walked in and literally told you that you could do this as a career.

I mean, if that's not a testament to your hard work and talent, I don't know what is. Dude, seriously, talk about the universe having your back. It's extraordinary. I don't know, Gabe. You're starting to sound a lot like Wendy. I'm going full Wendy on this one because our friend here, our friend here is walking the out website-wise, career-wise, professionally, like it's nobody's business. I think it's amazing. Yeah, just one plus one definitely equals a bigger one in this story. Maybe Wendy did have a point. Anyway, I'm so proud of our friend here for following this path that unfolded in front of her.

And now she's crushing it. She's in charge of her own life, her own career. She's just extraordinary. It's interesting how so many of these stories we heard today, they're about people who found themselves in nightmare situations, but they end up walking away with some important insights or amazing opportunities or a great example of what kind of boss never to be. In a way, the people we heard from today, they're lucky, right? Because if you're in a job that just, it's kind of mediocre and vaguely sucks, you can put up with that, you can get stuck there.

But if you're in a situation that is just bad shit untenable, it really brings things to a head and your life kind of forks. you're forced to make a choice. Right. And often that choice is to bet on yourself, right? Exactly. And that's powerful, man. That can lead you to some amazing places if you couple it with hard work, good relationships,

all that jazz. My big takeaway from the story is I think it's great to lean into these unexpected opportunities, you know, these chances to learn something new, even if it's not your job or it's not what you really expected. I mean, what's the worst that can happen? You learn a new skill. You get a little bit smarter about your industry. You meet new people.

Sometimes when people dump work in your lap for no way. extra pay, the right answer is to say, sorry, no, can't do it right now, my plate is full. Or, yeah, I'll do it, but you're going to have to pay me for this work. But sometimes, and I think a lot of times, the right answer is, okay, I'll give it a shot for a month. And let's see how it goes. And if you do a great job, then you go back to your boss and you can say, hey, I did that thing you asked, I crushed it, now I want to be paid for this work going forward. And if they pay you, great. But even if they don't, you have some new skills and some new experiences to speak to when you interview at the next place, or you just quit and start doing that thing on your own like our friend here.

You can't really lose by saying yes, if you have the right attitude and, yeah, some good boundaries. Totally agree. You just never know where these experiences are going to take you, but I agree the mindset is really everything here. So well done, my friend. You're an inspiration. Sorry, you worked for this manipulative tool, but I'm actually really grateful to him for setting you on this path. another great theme from today's episode. It's like, I remember when I had to start this, and I've talked about this on the show before Gabriel, I had friends be like,

this is the best thing that's ever happened to you. You just don't know it yet, and you always want to punch those people in the face. Like if I'd said, oh, yeah, your boss treating you like crap and then manipulating you and that's the best thing that's ever happening. It's like, screw you. I'm trying to create websites because I'm desperate here, and then it's like five years later.

You're near a Range Rover like, oh, yeah, you were right as you crank JZ to an inappropriate volume. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, sometime back, my coworker Paul and I were working at a company in North Carolina. Paul's mother lived in New Jersey, and she was dying. Paul contacted the scheduling manager on a Wednesday and asked for the next two days off to go home and say goodbye to his mother. He was told that he couldn't have this Thursday and Friday off, but he could have next Thursday and Friday off. Paul was a very agreeable employee and did as he was told.

but before the following Thursday came, he got the call. His mother had died. Oh, man, that is so sad. My God, oh, he must feel terrible. Many of us would have immediately gone home to mom and called saying that we'd be out, but Paul missed out on that opportunity due to his loyalty

and the fact that the company put his work above his life, signed Still Drying My Eyes over this mist goodbye. Yeah, this is tragic, and it's so gross. My heart goes out to Paul here. I'm sure this weighs heavily on him, and it just sucks. Again, I don't have a ton to add here. We tend to think, especially here in the States, where so many of us are workaholics

and a lot of people really need to work to survive, we really think that work is priority number one. And I know that I feel that way a lot of the time, even though I'm my own boss. I'm slapping myself with the squid every day. But it takes just one big crisis, one big milestone to put things in perspective. And the death of a loved one, especially apparent.

I mean, that's probably the biggest. I haven't been through this myself yet, knock on wood, but I think about it sometimes, especially as my parents get older. And I just, I know in my bones that being there when a parent dies, having the privilege of sharing the moment and saying goodbye, there's just no paycheck in the world that could ever match that. Those experiences are precious, and you can never get them back. Again, I say this as an admitted workaholic.

A lot of my life revolves around this show. And having kids has helped me balance that out, but still, this is a lesson for me, too. And yes, loyalty matters, discipline is important, being committed, being hardworking. Those are virtues, obviously. I'm not saying neglect your career and treat your employer like garbage. But you've got to be clear about your priorities, right? I know this is a total cliche, but when it's your turn to go, you're not going to be saying, oh, I'm so glad I stuck out that week 40 years ago when they needed me.

You know, you're going to be going, I should have hopped on that flight and said goodbye to my mom. And that's a really painful regret that this guy's got to live with. Yeah. So Paul's story is a cautionary tale. I'm glad you shared it with us because if it helps even one person put their foot down with a difficult boss and say, hey, I'm sorry, I'm getting on a flight home tonight, or I'm taking off really to say goodbye, we'll sort this out next week. I know they won't regret it.

And also, shame on Paul's boss for pulling this move. I want to say that boss was an a-hole, but in reality, they were probably just as confused as Paul was. They didn't know what mattered in life either. And that's, well, it's tragic. But we're all learning, I guess. So thank you for sharing this one. This is a perfect reminder for all of us to never make this mistake.

Major life events before work every damn time. So, boy, what a collection of stories this week. We had some really tough stuff in here and some really inspiring stuff. That's what I've taken away from today's episode, that there are some powerful upsides to these awful work situations because they really do force you to confront some difficult stuff, to learn how to have difficult conversations, to take yourself seriously,

to prioritize your health, your life, your earnings, your happiness, all of that, above a crazy boss or a dysfunctional workplace. And in that respect, these horrible bosses, the bizarre workplaces they create, as painful as they are, they really can serve you if you work with them the right way. So I hope that's something y'all can take into your lives. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us, for letting us learn from your experiences, as always. Amen, I got to say, yeah, you guys really helped us walk the out today.

I really did. I mean, I have some attachments about today's episode, but I'm learning to let go of them. I hate that Wendy is starting to slowly sound less and less crazy as the episode goes on. Must be that new math. Or maybe I just didn't learn these lessons in my past life when I was a cricket or whatever. Clearly not. For the record, she's still nuts. But I think one plus one equals a bigger one. We'll have a whole new meaning here on Feedback Friday. Lots to think about this weekend. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. and thank you so much. Also, don't forget to check out

that Christopher On Two Part of this week if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course.

It is 100% free. It is not gross. There is no squid slapping, no waterboarding with eggs, no chain smoking. It's not schmoozy. It's not going to make you look bad or the other people feel bad.

And it's on the think-iffic platform at six-minute networking.com. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. You've got to build those relationships. relationships before you need them. Once again at 6 Minute Networking.com. Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump in discussions with other listeners about specific episodes,

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got practical stuff in it, Gabe and I are co-writing that now, over at Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at Jordan Harbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast 1.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi, Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with a pain psychologist that helps people manage chronic pain when all else has failed. None of us are going to escape pain. Pain is part of being human. All of us at some point, if we haven't already, are going to experience pain.

Seems about time we understood it, knew how it worked, and knew what to do about it. So I am what's called a pain psychologist, which no one has ever heard of. People say, oh, well, you must treat emotional pain. The answer to that is no. Pain is always both physical and emotional. That's what neuroscience says.

And in fact, what we know is that negative, emotions like stress and anxiety or depression or anger or frustration, turn up pain volume in the brain. We think and are trained that pain lives in the body, like in your back or in your knee. It is, of course, true that things may be going wrong in your back or in your knee, but that isn't where pain lives. Pain lives in the brain. Pain does not always indicate danger. When you have chronic pain and your brain has.

and your brain has become sensitive. Small bits of non-dangerous input from the body are being interpreted incorrectly as dangerous. You've seen that car alarm. You're looking at your window, and that car, the lights are flashing, and the horn is beeping, and you're like, bruh, no one's breaking in.

You're safe. The glass isn't even broken. That's a brain on chronic pain. So it's just so important for people with pain to know that part of what's happening for them is that their brain has become extra sensitive and it is alarming when it doesn't need to. And it can be hacked. Guess what you and I are doing today? To hear more from Dr. Rachel Zoffness about how pain works in the body and brain,

check out episode 661 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a new great podcast shouldn't be this whole. hard, so let me save you some time. If you like the Jordan Harbinger show, you'll probably like something you should know with Mike Carruthers. It's one of those shows that makes you smarter in a practical, useful way. Same curiosity vibe we go for here, just in a fast-focused format. Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much

what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's shows we love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work, itch, search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.