The Journal. - The War Between Israel and Hamas

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Early Saturday, Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel as its fighters poured across the border from Gaza, killing hundreds and taking others hostage. In response, Israel declared war on Hamas and began retaliatory strikes on Gaza, also killing hundreds. WSJ’S Dov Lieber on a “game-changing” moment in Israeli-Palestinian relations and what comes next.  Further Reading: - Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks  - Israel Readies for Ground War in Gaza  - What is Hamas? What to Know About the Militant Group Fighting Israel  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I don't know if you can hear now, there's sirens blaring again. Oh, there was an interception now just ahead, entering the staircase, which is one of the places you're supposed to go. I don't know if you can hear that again. Another interception overhead. There's another one. Our colleague Dov Lieber is in Tel Aviv. The interceptions he's talking about, those booms you're hearing, is the sound of Israel shooting down rockets that are coming from Gaza.

How are you? I've been better, Kate, I'll be honest with you. These are dark times here. Very, very, very dark times. We've seen some of the, I mean, perhaps the grimmest images ever in this area, in this country for sure. And it's a very dark time. And even worse, potentially far worse things are to come. Early Saturday, Hamas, the militant group that controls the Gaza Strip, began an assault on Israel. began an assault on Israel. Hundreds of fighters streamed across the border, killing around 900 Israelis and taking dozens of hostages.

Israel immediately declared war on Hamas, shut down the border with Gaza, and began airstrikes on the Palestinian territory. In Gaza, more than 800 people have been killed, and Israel is now preparing for a ground invasion. What would you say is the significance of this moment that we're in? This is a game-changing moment. The level of brutality where things have gone will not allow a very fragile status quo that has existed vis-a-vis Israel and the Palestinians in general to

continue. This place will never be the same. This region may never be the same. Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Kate Leinbaugh. It's Tuesday, October 10th. Coming up on the show, the war between Israel and Hamas. We'll see you next time. should be too. Contact a licensed TD insurance advisor to learn more. Who is Hamas? Who is Hamas? Hamas is an Islamist militant organization. They now rule the Gaza Strip, a small, tiny enclave on the Mediterranean Sea, nestled on the edge of the Sinai Peninsula and southern Israel. It's a very densely packed place. Two million people live there. Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 in kind of a violent overthrow of the Western-backed government, the Palestinian Authority. They had widespread popularity, which will in fact play a large role in the story going forward, because Israel would very much like to turn the population in Gaza against Hamas.

the population in Gaza against Hamas. Before this attack, what was the status quo between Israel and Hamas? So Hamas has been in control of Gaza Strip since around 2007. And since then, essentially, the status quo has been something like some kind of conflict breaks out and Hamas will begin firing rockets into Israel, into civilian towns, and Israel will respond with airstrikes and sometimes with a ground invasion. And that's how it's been. I mean, there's been round after round after round. There's been many rounds. And Israel, in fact, had tried to play this carrot and stick policy with Hamas. You know, if Hamas fires rockets into Israel, then they get the

stick, which is usually airstrikes. But if Hamas behaves, then there can be some kind of economic incentives, for example, allowing more Gazans to work in Israel, which has been what's happening in recent years. And Israel thought potentially that it had even kind of cooled Hamas. But that status quo was upended on Saturday. So can you describe for us Saturday's attack? The attack on Saturday by Hamas began early in the morning with a massive rocket barrage over Israel. And what that did was force lots of people into their bomb shelters. And in retrospect, this seems this was part of the plan because it was a diversion, really. Because in the next hour or so, around a thousand militants from Gaza would come rushing into Israel, many of them armed,

some with trucks, RPGs, and things like that, would storm into Israel, storm into all the Israeli communities bordering Gaza, and begin to take them hostage and then murder them in their homes, on the streets. A large music festival. There was 250 bodies found at this music festival. Many of the ones who weren't killed, they were taken hostage, dragged back to Gaza. Hamas has taken more than a hundred hostages. Is that surprising to you? It's incredibly surprising. There's been nothing like this before. more than a hundred hostages. Is that surprising to you? It's incredibly surprising.

There's been nothing like this before. Not only that, most of those people who were taken hostage are not soldiers. They're civilians. Some of them women, children, the elderly. I mean, this is unheard of. Not only that, Hamas is using them, these hostages, as chips. They have now threatened to begin executing them live, broadcasting it, as a way to squeeze some kind of concessions out of Israel. I know now that the schools have told parents to remove all social media from their children's phones because Hamas is going to spread videos of people

pleading for their lives. Hamas, which the U.S. has designated a terrorist organization, says it has been fighting for years to eliminate Israel and establish an independent Palestinian state. The group said the specific trigger for this assault was an unspecified desecration at the Holy Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. What has been the response from Israel to this attack? Well, after the initial shock,

and it was a very, very long initial shock. Again, these horrendous scenes took place over many hours. One by one, Israel cleared out these communities of militants. Today, the Israeli military says there are no more active battles in southern Israel. Now Israel is beginning to go on the offense. And it is bombing Gaza in a way that it never has. What does that look like? Well, in the past, Israel used to have a policy.

You know, if they were going to hit a civilian site where they believed militants were hiding, because we have to understand Hamas is embedded in the civilian population. OK, so what they would do is they would send a kind of bomb that would just tell people, get out of this building because we're going to level it. They're not doing that anymore. And what they are doing is they're sending text messages and trying to tell people in a neighborhood, look, we're going to level this neighborhood or we're going to bomb this neighborhood. You should leave. You should leave now and go somewhere else. Somewhere else in Gaza.

Somewhere else in Gaza. That's right. Whether everyone gets these messages in time, it doesn't seem like it at all. In fact, now many hundreds of people have been killed in Gaza already by these airstrikes. And it's just the frequency and the number of these strikes. Israel has really essentially taken the gloves off. Not only have they taken the gloves off, they have kind of stopped worrying about how it will look to the international community. The other thing, Kate, is they are potentially preparing for a ground invasion of Gaza. And one of the ways to do that is, you know, to prepare these corridors for the soldiers to come in.

And another thing that Israel is doing that it has never done before is it has a complete closure of Gaza. It has cut off all electricity, fuel, food, and water to Gaza, essentially intentionally creating a humanitarian disaster in the Gaza Strip. What are the options for people living in Gaza? This is a very good question. I mean, people in Gaza will tell you that they don't know where safety is anymore. They don't know where safety is anymore. You know, Israel, Israeli officials told Gazans, go to Egypt, go cross into Egypt today. But the Egyptians, who also have a share of war with Gaza, do not want Gazans flooding into Egypt. They closed this border. This will also be a very, very, very difficult, perhaps almost certainly

the most difficult battle Gazans have ever faced. What have we learned about how Hamas planned this attack? Well, it's very obvious it was a well-planned attack. But my colleagues reported that this attack was at least partly planned in Beirut, Lebanon. It's not clear to what extent, but our reporting... I don't know if you can hear that, Kate. I can hear it. It's a rocket siren. I've got to go. I'll take you with me, okay? Okay. Where are you going?

Where are you going? I'm going to the stairwell. Unfortunately, there's no bomb shelter in this building. So the safest place to be is in the stairwell. You'll probably hear other people coming

into the stairwell now most likely you will hear uh booms uh overhead at some point uh that would be the uh i oh there was one now i don't uh intercepting uh the rockets can you still hear me by the way we'll be right back. to your Uber account today. Embrace the summer vibes with Summersby Hard Cider. Bursting with lovely aromas of apple, this light-bodied, fruity cider offers a crisp, clean finish,

perfect for sunny days and warm nights. Enjoy it well-chilled or over ice. That's refreshing. That's Summersby. Must be legal drinking age. Please drink responsibly. Carlsberg Canada Inc. Waterloo, Ontario.

You're in the stairwell now. I'm in the stairwell now, yeah. How long do you expect you'll be in the stairwell? In the stairwell? Well, you're supposed to wait at least a minute until the last boom. Okay. You know? So, give least a minute until the last boom. Okay. You know? So,

give me a minute. Okay, I may head back now. Okay. In fact, Kate, I'm going to turn my phone on very quickly and just tell my family that I'm okay, alright? Yeah, please. Okay, so give me a second. Okay.

Hold on. Sorry. Still with me? Yeah, I'm here. Okay. I'm with you guys again. Okay. Let's just keep going.

How prepared was Israel for this attack? This? It's difficult to understand how much is always caught off guard here. I mean, it's unbelievable how big of a colossal intelligence failure this was. They were not expecting this at all. In recent months, I had been going to briefings with the Israeli security officials, the Israeli military, and they were very much focused on their northern border with Lebanon. They were very much worried about Hezbollah, that Hezbollah may accidentally spark a war or intentionally spark a war. And that's where they were really focused. Hezbollah is a militant group based in Lebanon that's backed by Iran. It's a Hamas ally that's

been deemed by the U.S. to be a terrorist organization. The Wall Street Journal reported that there was a meeting in Beirut last week with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iranian security officials. And according to the Wall Street Journal's reporting, that's where the plan to attack Israel was agreed upon. We said earlier that Hamas is a militant organization, but it's also important to point out that Hamas has been kind of a client or proxy of Iran, sometimes less, sometimes more. But it receives a lot of money, training and weapons from Iran. They have a shared goal, and that shared goal is eliminating Israel. The fact that Hezbollah is in these meetings, the fact that it's happening in Beirut, is very, very important. Why?

Because one of the great unknowns, perhaps the greatest unknown of this entire thing, is whether Hezbollah will join this battle. That is because Hezbollah is far, far stronger than Hamas. Much, much stronger. In fact, the Israeli military has built up its forces to deal with a war with Hezbollah. That's how strong Hezbollah is. They have guided missiles that can hit anywhere in the country. So it's very terrifying. Hezbollah is warning that if Israel conducts a ground invasion of Gaza, it will open up a new front against Israel. Israel has already mobilized its troops on the northern border. It's ready for this.

But, you know, if Hezbollah joins the war, this will be a complete game changer in this already game-changing war because Israel has already threatened Lebanon for, in fact, many years, that it would level southern Lebanon. In fact, quote, bomb it back to the Stone Age if Hezbollah opened up another war against Israel. A spokesman for Iran's mission to the United Nations said the Islamic Republic stood in support of Gaza's actions, but didn't direct them. A senior Hamas official said the group

planned the attacks on its own. How will this affect life in Israel and in Gaza? Kate, I wish I knew the answer to that. But the answer is nothing good, that's for sure. You cannot go through this kind of trauma and come out better. I mean, it's hard to say what Gaza will look like after this is over. I mean, you can imagine, it will be devastated. And in Israel, the communities in the south, who knows if people will feel safe there again, honestly.

It was very common in recent days for Israelis to call this Israel's 9-11. I think Americans remember what happened after 9-11. They wanted revenge. And then two wars were launched soon after in Afghanistan and Iraq. And you don't see this sort of diffusing and returning to the status quo? No, certainly not. You know, it's, I don't think anyone, neither Hamas nor Israel, has any understanding where this is going. No one knows. It's a completely uncharted territory. But Kate, one thing is for sure, it's only getting started. And we can only hope that it ends sooner rather than later. We can

hope this war doesn't escalate and widen across the region. And we can only hope that the trauma that people on both sides of this conflict are now facing will someday heal. I don't know how long that will take. I don't know if it will ever happen. But I hope so. That's all for today, Tuesday, October 10th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Benoit Facon, Stephen Kalin, Anad Peled, and Summer Saeed. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.