The Journal. - Three Federal Workers Hit by DOGE

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

President Trump’s unprecedented effort to shrink the federal labor force is impeding work at government sites across the country. Three laid-off federal employees tell their story and WSJ’s Lindsay Ellis reports on the wider impact of the layoffs. Further Listening: - Inside DOGE's Campaign of Secrecy  - Inside USAID as Elon Musk and DOGE Ripped It Apart  Further Reading: - The Collateral Damage of Trump’s Firing Spree  - The Federal Workers Who Are Not Quite Fired, Not Quite Working  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My name is Victoria Delano. My name is Keith Kamir. My name is Brett Taylor. I live in Birmingham, Alabama. I'm located Milford, Pennsylvania. I was a social work associate with the Rocky Mountain VA. And I worked for the US Department of Education Office for Civil Rights as an equal opportunity specialist. Office for Civil Rights as an Equal Opportunity Specialist.

I was actually working for the Internal Revenue Service, the infamous IRS. Victoria, Keith, and Brett are among thousands of government employees who've been laid off as the Trump administration slashes the federal workforce in the name of efficiency. workforce in the name of efficiency. They say that the work they used to do could be at risk of falling through the cracks, like Victoria's job of investigating alleged civil rights violations in local schools. My coworkers who were terminated were immediately, just like me, cut out of the system, cut out of having any ability to get into the case management system and assist with any transfer of those cases.

Those cases are just lost in the abyss now. ... Brett, who worked at the Department of Veterans Affairs, worries about a VA with fewer hands to help homeless vets. Not only would the veteran be in crisis, but of course the workers would feel like they're in crisis too because now you're doubled or tripled their workflow. And Keith, who was at the IRS, says productivity is suffering. I communicated with one of my colleagues just a couple days ago,

and I said, how's things going? He says, we're just trying to figure it all out, picking up where you guys left off. So they're all scrambling. Trump's cuts, three workers, and the reach of government efficiency. Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Kate Leimbach. It's Thursday, March 27th.

Coming up on the show, the collateral damage of the federal layoffs. Okay, flights on air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens. Gardens. Um, Amsterdam. Tulip Festival. I see your festival and raise you a carnival in Venice. Or Bermuda has carnaval. Ooh, colorful. You want colorful. Thailand, lantern festival, boom.

Book it. How did we get to Thailand from Prague? Oh, right, Prague. Oh, boy. Choose from a world of destinations, if you can. Air Canada, nice travels. Nice travels. The federal government has been laying off workers in a way that hasn't been seen before.

Under the guidance of Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency, tens of thousands of employees have been laid off or left their jobs. The Social Security Administration. The Federal Aviation Administration is... The cuts have hit department after department. The Department of Veterans Affairs. Treasury, Energy and Homeland Security. The CDC, the NIH. And the Education Department.

These are agencies that Americans either rely on or interact with. either rely on or interact with. President Trump says the federal workforce includes many people who aren't doing their jobs. He also wants to reduce federal spending by $1 trillion this fiscal year. Now, in many cases, these agencies are figuring out how to do their work with fewer employees. It was really notable to me that we are just a few months into the Trump administration and there were all of these examples of concrete changes based on staff cuts. That's our colleague, Lindsay Ellis. She spoke with over 60 federal workers across the country

who do all kinds of jobs for the government. And the question kept coming up for me, well, what's happening to the work that so many of these people are doing? And it was really striking to me that these cuts have spawned collateral damage to the services that Americans can access and in some cases rely on. — One agency that's been hit hard is the Department of Veterans Affairs, or the VA. It says it has already laid off more than 2,000 workers and is

planning to cut about 70,000 positions. Lindsay spoke to some of the laid-off VA employees. One of them was Brett Taylor. Brett works in Denver at a VA facility and he is a social work associate. He's worked at VA facilities for the last several years. So he's no stranger to, you know, working for the VA. Brett is a vet himself. He served in the army. How long were you in the military? What'd you do?

So I only did three years. I only signed up for one contract. I did one year in Iraq, and I knew then that I wasn't going to do 20. After coming home, Brett went to graduate school and got a master's degree in social work. He says he started at the VA in 2019. Almost every job I've had within the VA has worked with helping veterans maintain housing while there's also a clinical component added to it. Like they may have substance abuse

issues or they may there may be some mental health issues. So not only we housing, we're also assisting veterans with whatever other issues they may have. Last summer, Brett moved to Colorado for a new job at the VA. In his role, he helps vets without housing find a permanent place to live. One of his last cases, he says, involved a veteran in his family who needed housing that would accommodate the man's disability. The house needed to be special for him, like ramps, doors wide enough to get his wheelchair rest.

So they had to get house in January. And it took us a while, but it happened. Why can't the veterans do this on their own? Well, some of them have barriers. Some of them are older. Some of them are older. Some of them may have mental barriers like post-traumatic stress. Once Donald Trump took office and created Doge, were you concerned for your job?

I was like, there's no way America would allow something like this to happen. But I was wrong. Because Brett had recently started that new role, he was classified as a probationary employee. Those are workers who were recently hired or promoted in the last year or two. And when the Trump administration started making cuts, probationary employees were among the first targets. So Brett was laid off.

How did you find out? I was in Florida on vacation with my parents and was in Lowe's getting something from my pops. And I got a call from my coworkers that they were terminated. So I went home and I checked my phone and I was terminated as well. Immediately or was there? Yeah, it was immediately. When you were laid off, how many cases did you have open?

I think about 16, but because we rapidly house, like if I get rid of fires, there might be fires coming in. So within that month, I could see probably 30 or 40 veterans. Brett's field office is still open. He worries that the remaining workers are having to handle higher caseloads. And when you think about the sort of policy objective of DOGE, does any of it ring true? Like are there inefficiencies at the VA? Oh, of course. That's not a lie. That's not a lie at all. I'll say from my own experience,

I've definitely dealt with people that knew because this was a federal job and it was a safety net that they can do and say and treat veterans any type of way. But I've also dealt with individuals that worked for the VA that love and joy and honor the fact that this is a duty to serve veterans and to serve America when it comes down to it. A VA spokesperson said the probationary employees who've been laid off amount to half of 1% of its workforce, saying, quote,

the notion that these layoffs are causing issues across the department is false. Over at the Department of Education, Victoria, who's in Birmingham, Alabama, is also sympathetic to a broad goal of government efficiency. I understand the need to cut fraud, waste, and abuse. However, when I joined the Office for Civil Rights and I saw there were only 60 people out of my office, which covered four states, so that's 60 people doing investigations for 9,500 public K through 12 schools, plus universities, plus museums, plus libraries, 60 people to

do that much work out of my regional office, I thought, okay, the math isn't going to math here if we have fewer people. So logically, I was thinking, if anything that needs to be expanded, surely with this being a congressionally mandated program funded by Congress, surely this is one program that won't be cut because there is no, there's no waste in there to cut. Victoria had a number of ongoing cases at the Office for Civil Rights, ones she says she wasn't able to hand off. And that's terribly concerning because I for one had at least one case where a child was not able to go to school because they were waiting on resolution of their complaint.

So you multiply that over and over and over. I don't know what's happening to those cases. Nothing as far as I've heard. Victoria has been advocating against the cuts with her union. She says she's fighting for her job because it's something she really believes in. This is a job that I took because I wanted to do this work, not because I had to do this work to pay my bills. This is my passion. So part of me holds out hope

that the administration will backtrack and realize, wait a minute, we need these subject matter experts in these spaces and that this absolutely is essential. A Department of Education spokesperson said the Office for Civil Rights plans to use more mediation and a faster case processing approach to address disability related and other harassment complaints, noting that the agency will quote deliver on its statutory responsibilities. The layoffs of probationary federal employees like Victoria and Brett were quickly challenged in court. Earlier this month, two federal district judges blocked those terminations.

One judge in San Francisco ordered the government to reinstate laid-off probationary employees at a half dozen agencies. This week, the Trump administration asked the Supreme Court to intervene on its behalf. As the litigation works through the courts, Victoria and Brett have been in limbo. They were both reinstated but put immediately on administrative leave. Then this week, Brett says he was told to return to work and is in the process of getting on boarded again. After the break, we talked to another laid-off worker, someone who was already working in

government efficiency. Keith Kamir has worked in the government for a number of years. He's worked for the census and the small business administration. Why have you been drawn to government work? Well, I'm a veteran and I love to be able to serve my country. So as an Air Force veteran, I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. I fell in love with the idea and the notion of serving in a greater capacity, because it's not about me.

It's about what does this program or this service offer the country as a whole. Last year, Keith joined the IRS. He was on a team charged with streamlining the process to manage the agency's IT budget. There's seven IT divisions within the agency altogether. Seven IT divisions? Yeah.

Why so many? Because there's so many different divisions, they all support different functions within the agency. Keith says a big part of his job was government efficiency. Is the objective to cut waste? Yes. What are we spending on? How much are we spending here? Do we need to spend money over here? Why are we spending it this way?

So it allows for people who are actually in charge of the IT budget to be able to identify where they're spending their money and if it makes sense. The IRS didn't respond to a request for comment. What's your view of government waste? It's upsetting. It's very upsetting. We are supposed to have, in my opinion, a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers.

Right? So our job is to be able to properly protect taxpayer money and use it for the benefit of the country. How would you describe your politics? Well, I mean, politically, I've supported traditionally Republicans. I voted for Trump three times, full disclosure. And I think it's important that you don't have a bloated government. And I do think it's important that you have accountability and that you identify what's working and what's not working.

So yes, I think the concept of what Doge is set out to do and was set up to do is a good thing. And it falls in line with what my job is about. So Trump comes into the White House, establishes DOJ. Did you think your job would be affected? I was under the impression that it would mean that we would be sticking around to help the IRS support and implement what DOJ is looking to do. Now, I didn't think that DOJ was going to come in like a bull in a china shop and just start like throwing everything out. I figured it was a matter of, okay,

we're gonna go in and figure out what's working, what's not working. And in the process, if they uncover some sort of fraud, waste and abuse, they would identify it, nip it in the bud. But instead it was more, let's just go ahead and just throw the baby out with the bath water. Keith says he's now on paid administrative leave, but not allowed to go back to work.

And he told us he's considering changing his party affiliation from Republican to independent. The sweep of these cuts is just beginning to be felt across the country. The U.S. government touches so much of Americans' daily lives. There are so many examples of work that federal employees do every day that might fade into the background until you need to make that call or submit that complaint. I mean, from a kid who can't get into a classroom to individuals who are trying to find an apartment and they've served their country. What are you watching for going forward? We have a close eye on trying to figure out

these future reduction in force plans, what departments or areas will be subject to the cuts, the timeline of them, and how those are going to be rolled out. And I also have my eye on those court rulings trying to understand what happens from here, how and if people are fully reinstated into their roles and where the appeals processes go. Today, more cuts were announced. The Department of Health and Human Services said it plans to cut 10,000 full-time employees.

Those employees work in departments that are tasked with responding to disease outbreaks, approving new drugs, and providing insurance for the poorest Americans. HHS said essential health services won't be affected. That's all for today, Thursday, March 27th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Matt Barnum, Allison Pooley, and Liz Esley-White. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.