The Kevin Sheehan Show - 20 Years of Dan

Episode Date: May 23, 2019

Kevin and Thom open the show with a conversation about Dan Snyder's 20-years of Redskins' ownership. They also talked Nats, Kevin Durant, NBA Playoffs, and more. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yep, Tommy's here. Aaron's here. This show's presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and tell them we told you to call. I've got a lot to get to. We've got a menu of... A Las Vegas buffet. No, a menu of excellence. Oh, I forgot. You know, I forgot... menu of excellence. I haven't used that. I haven't used that in years. Well, you shouldn't. You should save it only for Sports Fix or Sports Fix 2.0. That was Tommy's favorite thing. Today, we, I mean, just our pre-show meeting created a menu of excellence. And we do have a lot of things to get to. We'll get to the Nats at some point. I watch just in time for Doolittle to come in, Barrackle on Doolittle to come in and ruin what was a terrific outing from Scherzer. I'm still not enough

run support. I think they ended up with three hits, two or three hits on the night. Yeah, I know, but they're going against Jacob de Grom. They're not like they're going against some stiff. I understand. They could get swept in a four-game series against the Mets after the Mets were swept by the Marlins coming into this thing. We'll get to them a little bit later on. I definitely want to get to the NFL League meetings, which has produced a very predictable tweak to the pass interference replay rule, which we will get to. Kevin Durant is showing his sensitivity because right now if Golden State goes on to win a title and this is predictable too it's a nightmare for him of course it is somebody said this and then he got into it on

instagram and twitter with this someone um so we will get to that as well but we're going to start with some redskins uh first of all they signed linebacker joe bostic from pittsburg they need a new need a new inside linebacker out of a three four defense he will help um does jeff bostic come with the deal? He does not come with the deal. That would be good. That would be really good. But they've filled the lost spot of Ruben Foster with a guy who's played a lot and played a ton in Pittsburgh.

Let me just point out something about Ruben Foster before we get the ball rolling. Apparently, the Washington Post reported that the Redskins were looking to Ruben Foster not only to be a great player on the field, but they were looking to him to be a team leader. I'm serious. They were looking at Ruben Foster.

They were counting on him being a team leader. Now, I haven't read the details of it, but that is basically the tagline the post is using to pitch the story, that they saw him as a team leader. And that's, look, that's so wrong on so many levels. But the one that is so Redskins-like is the latest guy here becomes the leader of the team. That's Redskins. That is. That really has been the case.

The last guy through the locker room door. You're right about that. Is the new team leader. I, you know, maybe that's why Tommy, the players that you felt should have been there for the beginning of OTAs to be his support structure. Maybe they just, they look to him as the leader. And so he doesn't need us. He's our leader. So I thought that was kind of.

of ironic on many levels. Yeah, I think it is. I didn't see that. You know what? It's the sign of a stable football organization. The most stable it's been in 25 years, in fact. It's that kind of sign. Why would you say that? Well, I mean, I read that somewhere and I heard that somewhere, and that's evidence of it. That Ruben Foster

would come in and be a team leader. No one thinks the organization's stable. It's the most normal on best it's been on the football side in 25 years. Okay. I don't know where you're getting that from, but I'll just let it slide because now I have a feeling I know where you got it from. So we'll just leave that B for right now. I did want to mention that Landon Collins continued his media tour this morning showing up on the NFL network. He got the hang of being a Redskin, didn't they? Real quickly. I mean, predicting Super Bowls, talking about, you know, grudges that he's going to pay back on. It's really remarkable. I don't, somebody criticized me the other day on Twitter for being over the top, you know, with my reaction to Landon Collins. First of all,

just, you know, to set the table correctly, I actually was in favor of the signing of Landon Collins. I liked that signing. It was expensive for safety. I totally get it. It was very expensive for safety, but I actually liked the signing of Landon Collins. But, since he's gotten here, like everybody else, past, present, current. Once they get here, and it's off-season, you know, sometime between January for them, the off-season starts in January every year, and August, no team seems to produce more boastful predictions about kicking people's asses, especially teams within the division, more than the Redskins,

only to produce the opposite. The opposite in results. It's basically the Redskins move. Year after year, you have players speak up about how great they're going to be. And no one tells them to shut up. Nobody, nobody in a coaching. Well, we have and others have. Yeah, but no one on the coaching staff drills it into these guys' heads that you haven't done anything,

you haven't proven anything. We need to prove things on the field before we talk off of the. Now, I get in this day and age, it's hard to keep players from, you know, talking trash on social media. But it seems like it's the first page of the playbook when they walk in the Redskins Park. It feels that way. By the way, I said Joe Bostic. I meant John Bostic for the Steelers. I thought I had misspoken there and you didn't correct me, but I was able to correct myself.

You're of no help ever. I get tired of it. That's probably true. It's exhausting. The funny thing is, you know, since we record this, in the past, being on radio, you'd get a quick text from somebody or, you know, a tweet saying, you said this, and I'm like, and I can correct it and thank the person. I actually can thank myself. Because when I said it, I'm like, that's not right. Did I say Joe or did I say John?

And I think I said Joe. If I said Joe, it's John. Because there was a Joe Bostic. There was a Joe Bostic. He was Jeff's brother. He was Jeff's brother. He played for the Cardinals. Yeah.

I believe it was for the Cardinals for many years, right? among other teams. Maybe you got it wrong and you'll just have to correct it at some point. Now I'm going to look it up. Now I'm going to look up Joe Bostic because I think it was primarily with the Cardinals. Yeah. Right?

Yes. Was it all only with the Cardinals? Yes, the Cardinals. He had a 10-year career with the St. Louis and Phoenix Cardinals. So you don't get to correct yourself. What a disappointment. Damn. Anyway, Landon Collins was on the NFL Network this morning,

making his continued, you know, run through the media. bashing his former team and making predictions. And, you know, this morning it came with, you know, him saying it really hurt him. You know, it hit me pretty tough. Honestly, he said, quote, about, you know, leaving the Giants. Remember, he seemed to be very excited to be here. Now he's lamenting the fact that the Giants didn't want him to stay. But he took a shot at Dave Gettelman, you know, primarily for trading Odell Beckham, Jr.,

which I would just remind him. everybody. That has nothing to do with him anymore. No. The trading of Odell Beckham Jr. from the Giants to the Browns, he's not a giant anymore. He's a redskin, but he seems really hung up on the OBJ trade, and he said, quote, Gettelman said things he wanted to say, he said he wasn't going to trade the man, then he traded him. We was all surprised because that's one of the best receivers in the game, and for him to do that, and to lie to everybody, it's not a good look for players and teammates. It's closed quote.

So, you know, as a Redskin, considering the way he feels about OBJ, he should be thrilled that OBJ was traded to the AFC. Yeah, he doesn't have to face him now. And that he doesn't have to face him on those, you know, two games a year for six years that he's got circled on his calendar. I don't know. By the way. All of this stuff just adds up over the years.

Don't you guys realize this? I think most of you feel the same. It's like, just show us. with actual winning, win something, and then start being concerned about, you know, former people and former teams and lies and truths and everything. Just go out as a strong safety, and by the way, a very good player. And hopefully he will be here too, because we've had good players elsewhere come here and not thrive. Right.

Many times before. Hopefully he will go out and provide them with something they haven't really had a lot of. I mean, DJ Swaranger was a pretty damn good player here. Yes, he was. He was a good player here. He was a good player here. And actually, for the first half of 2018, he was one of the best safeties in the league. I mean, yes.

And I just wanted to point out something. Dave Gettleman has become a punching bag in the NFL and a bit of a clown. And that's fine. But another ranking came out of NFL general managers. This one by Roto World. And Dave Gettelman was not the last general manager on. the list, ranked on the list. Hold on.

Did you send me this list? I think I did. I don't think I opened it up. The last one on the list of existing GMs. Let me guess. Bruce Allen? Yes. Yes.

A familiar spot. So as much of a clown as Dave Gettlement is, people still view Bruce Allen who cover this league as worse. So it wrote a world put it out? Yeah. NFL best GMs. I mean, you don't have to look for it. Now you can take my word for it.

Where was Gettleman ranked? I don't know. On the list. I don't, you see, unlike Landon Collins, I don't care about Dave. Right. Well, you know, Dave Gettelman, look, he came off as very sensitive to all of the criticism regarding the Daniel Jones trade. And I actually think he came off as clownish in the way he handled it.

Oh, yeah. He's earned his reputation. But, you know, in Landon Collins, we'll have a chance to back up everything he's done and said on the field and Gettleman you know we nobody knows at this point whether or not he was right or wrong right he could be proven right now some people say week four of the season yeah some people will say I'm talking about just Daniel Jones's career like if Daniel Jones becomes a really good quarterback no one's going to really remember that he took him according to some too early at number six overall right even though and you know I think I know this or I feel confident about this

even though I don't think the Redskins would have taken Daniel Jones because Dan Snyder was not going to take Daniel Jones. But I do think that the word was out there that some people in the Redskins organization favored Daniel Jones. And that's probably what Gettelman was thinking, that if Kyle Smith and or Jay Gruden or somebody else wins out in this debate with Dan Snyder, they could take the guy I want. You know, ultimately, again, if Daniel Jones is great,

Is any giant fan going to criticize him for taking him too early? That position too early, if that guy turns out to be great. But if he's not great, they'll never forget it. No, and he'll be done if he's not great. But that's going to take a few years, just like with Haskins. Nothing Haskins does in this rookie season. I'm going to say this right now, and you can hold me to it, because I'm going to try to be very, very patient.

Because young quarterbacks you should be patient with, Even though we had a guy on what Aaron last week or the week before, the guy from the Action Network, who said, you know, a lot of these guys that get drafted in the first round, when they play right away, their results are there if they're good and their results don't change that much, you know, through the following years in their careers. They start out good and they stay good. But with Haskins, if he gets a chance to play without, you know, productive receivers, with a banged up offensive line, if that happens again, I'm going to be patient.

There's no way I'm going to judge Dwayne Haskins on his rookie season. I mean, I think we'll be able to have a sense of where it's headed, but you can't have, I don't think, after one season, a definitive conclusion on that position. But, you see, here's the thing that... By the way, maybe the definitive conclusion could, or if he plays great and he's really good as a rookie, I would actually be more bullish and probably say you can be more definitive that this guy's the real deal.

If he comes out as a rookie and really performs well. But if he doesn't, I think you have to be patient. But there's two report cards. There's the football report card. And then there's the off-the-field report card. And I'm not saying Dwayne Haskins has a history of being a problem. He doesn't. No.

But when you become the owner's favor. player, there's things that you have to deal with that are difficult for a young player to deal with. Right. Things that can destroy the chemistry of an organization, even one as bad as this. So I think part of the judgment on Dwayne Haskins is how he handles being already the favored child of the organization before he's even taken a snap in a regular season game. You know what, that's true. I don't know what we're going to learn from the outside looking in other than if something, if all hell breaks loose and there are leaks coming out from everywhere about Snyder getting in the middle of the development of his prized, you know,

quarterback that he selected. Well, it could, I mean. It could just be something as simple as Dwayne Haskins and Haskins and Haskins, given a team privilege that other players don't get. those things create resentment in a locker room. And this is one of the things when they drafted him. I said it's going to be really important. And I don't have faith that this was a learning experience. But I am hopeful that the owner learned from the experience with RG3,

that the coach has to be able to coach the player. If the owner gets in the middle of that, that's problematic for everybody. And you can't have a special privilege for a rookie quarterback and not for your starting right tackle. Well, he's already gotten a certain privilege in getting the jersey number. And that's the wrong path to go down because that creates resentments in locker rooms. Right. So the thing that I wanted to, we mentioned the Land of Collins stuff.

And I wanted to get to with you here today because it's Saturday that marks the 20-year anniversary of Dan Snyder's ownership of the Redskins 20 years ago, May 25th, 1999, NFL owners unanimously approved the sale of the Redskins to a group led by Dan Snyder for $800 million. And, you know, I still cannot believe in thinking about what happened 20 years ago, really starting 21, 22, 23 years ago, I still cannot believe that Jack Kent Cook didn't figure out from a will perspective a way to leave that team. to his son. It is. It is. It's complicated and it's it's difficult to believe. It really is. It's almost as if don't you still feel the same way because I remember feeling the same way or this way at the time that he almost didn't trust his son to own the team. Yeah. I mean look, obviously if he felt

that that his son would be really good at it. Well, you know what? Cook was a complicated guy. I understand. And as much as we, as much as we, as much as Redskins fans beloved Cook, he could be a real dick. I know that's true. And in his relationship with his son was complicated as well. Do you think it's possible that he said that this was intentional, he wouldn't be a good owner of this franchise? Yeah, I think it is.

And I don't know how much by putting the team, I don't know how much he wanted his legacy to be the Jack Kent Cook Foundation. which is still operating and still giving out grants to young people year after year after year, more than 20 years after his death, maybe he wanted to create a monument to himself, a living monument to himself. And the way to do that was to sell the team because I think, I mean, look, I don't know what his estate was like. I don't think his assets were as valuable as he thought they were,

like the Chrysler building, the Los Angeles. Angeles Daily News, the newspaper he owned. So what could be in the play is, you know, I want to build a living monument to me. And if I leave the team in my son's hands, it could tarnish my memory. I don't know if that's true, but it is still to this day very odd. Yeah. That he did not create an easy way for his son to retain the team. By the way, just as a quick aside, I played in a golf tournament, a charitable golf tournament recently.

And guess who was there and actually sponsored a hole? Marlina. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. So she's not okay for herself. Well, I don't know if that's an indication that she's done well for herself.

I'm just saying that she was there. I did not see her, but she sponsored a hole and was apparently playing in the event. Anyway. And you didn't see her? No, I didn't. I didn't. It was a mobbed event. I mean, it was two groups on every single hole.

They were all there to see you. And then beyond that, no, that wasn't it at all. So it was a prestigious event that you were invited to play. It was not prestigious. It was actually just so you know, it was a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, son passed away a few years ago at 23 years old. And just stunningly. And very sad.

And his son was a super kid and a great athlete and the whole nine yards. And so my buddies had this now for the second straight year, this charitable event. Anyway, so somehow I noticed her name was sponsoring a hole. And then somebody had mentioned that she was out there as well. All right. Anyway, so Dan Snyder's ownership, 20 years now, he has owned the team. We know what the record is, right? 139 and 180 since he bought the team.

And there have been two playoff wins, two. And to be fair, the first one really wasn't, you know, he took ownership of that team in May of 1999. That team for that 1999 season was already set by Charlie Casserly. Yeah, he was a passenger on that. Right. Now, you know, you do know the story that he wanted to somehow reverse the Brad Johnson trade. He did not like the trade, tried to, wanted it reverse, but they couldn't do that. Thank God, because they did have that one really good year with Brad Johnson,

and they won the division in 1999 and won a playoff game against the Lions at FedEx Field before losing to Tampa in the second round. In a very close game. 14 to 13, and they were within a whisker of being in the NFC championship game against the greatest show on turf, the St. Louis Rams. But the only other playoff win came in the Gibbs. 2005 season when they beat Tampa on the road and then had a legitimate shot in the divisional round if Carlos Rogers could have held on to a pick six for a 10-0 early first quarter lead.

They had a legitimate shot to beat Seattle and get to the NFC championship game that year, which would have been against Carolina. I think really the RG3 moment and that Gibbs 2005 moment are the closest to something big that this organization has had during Dan's. Snyder's era. The 99 thing, I don't really give, it's part of his ownership, so he gets credit for two playoff wins, but that was one that he couldn't get in the middle of. It was too late for him to really screw up. But anyway, the Redskins have had eight head coaches during his tenure in 20 years. Think about that eight head coaches in 20 years. We've seen all of the, you know, splashy free agent

signings over the years that have produced very little, the bad trades over the years that have produced even worse. And we have essentially seen in 20 years one of the most loyal and passionate fan bases in all of sports. It's not crazy. People that are here, that moved here in the last 10 years and see what the Redskins are now. You have to understand that when he took this team over in 1999, They had had a bad run of a few years, okay? Yeah, it's not like they were great before Dan Snyder bought the team. No, they had a tough six-year stretch. From 93 through 98.

Yes. They were not very good. Not very good. It was the worst stretch they had had since the 1960s in terms of their record. But they still, at that moment, had one of the most passionate and loyal fan bases in all sports. And it was recognized as such. I'm not exaggerating that. No, you're not.

You're absolutely not. It was considered a marquee franchise in terms of fan interest in the NFL. Yes. And one of the marquee storied franchises in the league, that's what they were. That's what they were when Dan Snyder bought the team. We came up with just a list of things that we would talk about to talk about the 20 years. And I'm glad you're here because I don't want to do this tomorrow. I'd rather do it with you today.

You'd be glad that I was here even if we weren't going to talk about this. Of course. All right. Let's make that clear. I want to start. Because not everybody is glad that I'm here. I want to start with the positive, okay? I want to start with something positive about his ownership.

I want us to list the best thing or maybe things that he's done as the owner of the team. This is a very difficult list to put together. It is and it isn't when you think about it. And I'll tell you why. Okay. The, well, you want to start? Well, there's one thing that sticks out more than any other. And that is the hiring of Joe Gibbs.

The hiring of Joe Gibbs in 2004, to me, was by far and away the best thing he's done as an owner. Not to me. Okay. But let me finish with this. First of all, the organization had hit its first rock bottom during the Dan Snyder era. It was the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary. It was the post-spirier disaster. People had, you know, blamed him for ruining what looked, that appeared to be a good team in development,

even under North Turner, with Brad Johnson, a quarterback, and what they had done in 99 in 2000. They had drafted LeVar Arrington and Chris Samuels in the same draft. But they had gone through that incredible, you know, fantasy football spending spree in 2000. And then he hired Marty Schottenheimer and fired Marty Schottenheimer at the end. end of one year because he wasn't and the ownership wasn't having enough fun. And I'll get to the Schottenheimer thing here in a few minutes. But the Spurrier thing was an utter disaster. And they were at their first rock bottom moment in his ownership tenure at the end of 2003. And it was a Hail Mary. It came out of nowhere. No one saw this coming. And I'll never forget the night. Like it broke very late

night or early in the morning, that the Redskins were going to hire Joe Gibbs to come back and coach. And I don't think that as a Redskin fan during his ownership tenure, I've ever been that optimistic, hopeful, and excited with one move, with one announcement. And one of the things I've always heard about Dan is that in a very small group setting, one-on-one or just small group that he can really sell, that this is his talent. He's a very good salesman. One of the reasons that he was able to build that first company. You can talk about that company and what it was and whether or not it was a house of cards and all that and the other investments, but he's always had an ability one-on-one in particular, not necessarily in front of large groups, but one-on-one

are in small gatherings to really sell. And he sold Joe Gibbs on coming back. And that to me is by far and away. For me, I'll get to yours here now, but that's the best thing he's ever done as an owner. Okay. It's funny because you mentioned both the best and the worst thing he's ever done as an owner.

The thing that could have changed this franchise, the history of this franchise early, was the hiring of Marty Schottinheim. Yes. And the thing that kept the franchise from changing its history early was the

firing of Marty Shott. Well, that's our next question, the worst things that have happened. And that's my number one. Well, again, it always has been. I mean, to me, it's the same guy. The hiring is the best thing I think that Snyder had done. The firing was the worst

thing that he's done. And I'll go, I mean, the, worst things, I mean. So you think hiring Marty was a better thing than hiring Joe? Yeah, because I don't know if Joe would have accomplished what Marty was going to have accomplished. You know what? That's fair. I'm just,

my reaction in the moment was that was the best thing. Oh, I get that. And I still feel like Joe saved him from another, what would have, because those four years in hindsight were pretty good for a dance, even though we had a losing record. But if you don't fire Marty Schottenheimer, you don't need to hire Joe. No, you don't. So, I mean, and no matter what you think of Marty, this franchise would take perennial playoff appearances and double digit wins in a season without making the Super Bowl over what they've done. No doubt. So, I mean, I think that's the best and the worst things he's done. And let's face it, it's a short list of the best things he's done. And the worst things he's done is, it's, oh my God, it's like a roll of toilet paper. So we just, we each had one good thing that he's done. By the way, I want to make clear that this conversation is football team related. I do understand, and I've recognized this before, that Dan and Tanya and the organization,

in the name of the organization, they've, done a lot of charitable stuff. A lot of charity. And Dan, from what I've been told by people who I believe, does a lot of charitable acts that don't get publicity. That's right. So this is something different. It's something different. We're talking about the football team for the most part and everything associated with football team. We're talking about the thing you care about. You don't particularly care how much money he gives the United Way. Then don't pretend you do. I've got two things on the list of the worst things that he's done. I mean, I could create a list of 20. Yeah. But the, top two things to me are both,

it's a one and one A. The one is firing Marty Schottenheimer. To me, the moment he did it, I was pissed off as a fan. Why? Because if you watch that 2001 season, you saw a football team that had changed because of a head coach. And a head coach had begun to

basically put his culture, a culture. A toughness, a discipline part. He had old players that were bitching and screaming, which was a good sign, by the way. You know, the Bruce Smiths and even Daryl Greens, and he had young players like Lavairerington that had totally bought in. That was the future. And with Tony Banks and Kent Graham at quarterback, they turned an 0-and-5 start, a very ugly

0-and-5 start, which, by the way, included Dan getting in the middle of things early on. He wanted Jeff George to start the season. And Marty's like, he's a loser, essentially. But Jeff George started the season, and then remember, after 9-11, you had the break. Yes. Because they canceled the games the week after 9-11. And they came back on a Monday night in Green Bay at Lambo with Jeff George a quarterback. And they got beat 37 to nothing in that game.

And the next day, Marty said, he's gone. Yeah. He's out of here. and he got his way, and they took some lumps the next few weeks, and then they lost a painful game on a Monday night in Dallas. Both teams were winless, by the way. It was a matchup of winless teams in week five or six of the NFL season, and Stephen Davis fumbled after picking up a first down to run the clock out

with a 7-6 lead. Dallas got the ball back, kicked a game-winning field goal, and beat the skins 9-7, and the Redskins were 0-5 in that moment. And apparently Dan and Fred Drasner, who hated Marty, Marty took his parking spot away. And Marty told him not to come to the park. Told him not to show up to the park. Marty had already fired Vinic Sarato.

He got in and said, this is not my guy. It's not good enough, Dan. I'm the head of personnel. And by the way, had John Schneider in here. John Schneider, yeah. The Seattle GM. Yeah, the great Seattle GM of the last decade. And from that moment, and it changed the,

following week in a game against Carolina at FedEx Field when LeVar Erington picked off a pass down 14-0 and ran it back 70-some-odd yards to make it 14-7. They rallied back, they beat Carolina, I think, in overtime, 17-14, and that was the first of five wins in a row. And you saw this team with no quarterbacking. Tony Banks and his Andy always said, and won audible. Yes. You know, but it was also Kent Graham, who came in in a game at Denver in Slee. where Banks looked completely out of it. And Kent Graham came in and led him to a victory, and they were winning games like 17 to 10.

They won a game at Philadelphia 13 to 3. And Tommy, they were right at 5 in the middle of a playoff picture with no quarterback play. Tony Banks and Kent Graham, and then they lost a painful game at home against the Cowboys. I'll never forget that. They were a big favorite. Like people were buying into the Redskins,

and they were a big favorite against the Cowboys at home, and Quincy Carter beat them. Came in here and Quincy Carter beat them, and then they basically finished eight and eight. They won eight of their final 11 games. They had a chance, by the way, at home against Chicago late in that year to be front and center in the playoff picture. And Brian Erlocker, on a fake field goal, caught a touchdown pass to give Chicago the lead in the fourth quarter. But this thing was headed in the right direction. It was getting younger, tougher, disciplined. As you mentioned, it was his culture that was starting to take over the building.

There were going to be guys that weren't going to be there once he was gone. Bruce Smith was going to be gone. Daryl Green would have retired probably earlier because he didn't want to play for him. But that would have all been well and good because they would have gone on to win divisions, to have double-digit, double-digit win seasons under Marty Schottenheimer. And yes, Marty's limitation was the post. postseason. And I do think some of it was on Marty. He got very conservative in the postseason. Also, some of it was just horrific luck with field goal kicker after field goal kicker missing

field goals that could have won games. And the all-timer was when they played New England when he went to San Diego. When they played the Patriots out in San Diego, they had the game won on an interception. And instead of falling down, the guy's running around and he fumbled it right back to the Patriots and Brady let him down the field. He had some bad luck in the postseason. Now, that's the worst thing Dan Snyder has ever done. Firing Marty Schottenheimer. He, he blew a chance for them to have a six, seven, eight year run of winning divisions, being in the playoffs, winning 10, 11, 12 games a year. Right. And changing the culture of what has become a toxic organization. I remember the next to last game of the season, they played down.

in New Orleans against the Saints. And I went down... Crushed him. Yeah, they beat him 40 to 10. And I went down to cover it. And Charlie Casserly was in the press box. He was working for Houston at the time. I don't even think the Texans had started playing yet.

They started in 2002, I think. Okay, well, this was 2001. Yeah. But he's already working for Houston. I remember talking to him. I remember him distinctly telling me it was a miracle that Marty Schauchtenheimer with Tony Banks at quarterback had gotten this team so far.

Right. I mean, literally a miracle. It was. It was eight out of the final 11. They're clearly heading in the right direction. And the owner decides, with the other ownership, too, Fred Drasner, et cetera, that Marty, you know, is a first-rate tool. They don't like them.

They're not having any fun. No fun. They're having no fun. And so Marty goes to San Diego where, you know, he ends up winning 12 games and 14 games in two different seasons. I think it was year two and year four. something like that. But Marty was a winner. Marty, you know what Marty was? And Bruce Allen, I could respect this, I think. Marty in many ways was George Allen. He was a phenomenal

coach, tough, hard-nosed disciplinarian that for whatever reason just couldn't get it done in the postseason. Yeah, you would think so. I'm kind of curious if you have a number two I do for the best thing he's ever done. I figured that that would be a shorter conversation. Do I have a number two for the best thing that he's ever done after? Because nothing comes to mind for me. I mean, I guess it would be hiring Marty Schottinheimer in the first place. Okay, that would have to be.

No, actually, it would be hiring Mike Shanahan. You know the way I feel about Mike. And I think that that was the right move. And, you know, and all of you are going to disagree and you're going to tweet me as record and how awful things were. But I, Mike was a professional. football person in the building. He had professional coaches in the building. The organization with Mike's leadership, and by the way, with Bruce as sort of, you know, working underneath Mike, which didn't

thrill Bruce, but they in many ways changed the way they had done business, which in the moment was a good thing. It gave them a better chance I thought for building and maintaining a competitive roster because they stopped over spending on free agents past their prime and they started to draft more and they started to draft linemen more and they started to make better trades and create better contracts. But there's no doubt that during this stretch, the one thing they have failed on over and over again is they just have not been able to identify the right players. It's not been Bruce's talent. And Mike didn't have a banner roster, you know, roster. creation period, but some of their best players on the roster right now are still the players

Mike acquired. Jordan Reed. Jordan Reed, Ryan Kerrigan, Trent Williams, Chris Thompson. I agree. Now, I mean, look, I was right with you on Mike Shanahan. That's the last time. The last time that I was really bullish on the Redskins was the Mike Shanahan era. And people say you're always negative about them.

I wasn't negative then. weren't. I mean, I thought Mike Shanahan was a proven professional, but he, again, we're not going to argue the Shanahan regime. He made a couple of key mistakes. And actually, the first year he was here, I wrote this. He underestimated how poor the roster was he was inheriting. He really didn't realize how bad the talent was when he got here. And then the second thing was, he didn't, he didn't see. stand fast when Bruce and Dan gave, you know, tried, shoved Donovan McNabb down his throat. I know. And wanted to trade for the chance to, for Robert Griffin the third. He, he didn't say, I'm deciding this, not you. Well, the RG3 thing, again, I mean, let's be clear on this, because I've, I've done this so many times because you were a part of that interview. Mike has never said, never said that RG3 was pushed upon him.

No. He's never said that. Donovan McNabb, yes. He had conditions to a McNabb trade. He wanted Bulger. Bulger retired, and he had conditions on a McNabb trade, which was no contract extension, and no more than a third and fourth, I think. And they ended up giving up a second and fourth. He didn't want to give up a second rounder.

But RG3, he accepted and went along with it. Yes. But gave Bruce and Dan fair warning that it was going to be a process to turn him into an NFL pocket-passing quarterback. So in the short term, they were going to do some unique things that the NFL wasn't used to to make him comfortable and to give them a shot at winning. Now, they all say, I don't know if Dan says this, I think Bruce would say this, that if they knew the $36 million salary cap penalty was coming, they would have never made the trade for RG3. They would have never made the trade to move up. And it was in days of days after the trade. Just like I think 48 or 72 hours.

No, it was a little bit longer than that. No, it wasn't. It was really close. I think it was a little bit. Well, it was right before a free agency started in March. And I think the trade was in February. Yeah, you may be right. You may be right.

But go ahead. Did you want to mention, did you want to go back and mention another good thing? No, no, I have no other good thing. But I have a number two on the worst thing. But you're number two on, okay, what is the number two on the worst thing? The number two on the worst thing he's ever done as an owner is get in the middle of the Shanahan RG3 relationship because I still believe that if Dan had empowered his coach and told the player, he's your boss, not me, rather than really what they did was, you know, they undermined the

entire operation together. They didn't realize they were doing it. Dan should have. He's an adult. RG3 wasn't. But to empower and entitle and to coddle and to create different rules for RG3, which by the way, he had done with other players in the past. He'd done it with guys like with Clinton. He did it with Clinton. With Hainesworth, you know, I've heard stories in recent years that some of the stuff with Hainsworth, that his door was open to Hainsworth 24-7 and to nobody else other than Clinton. But what he did in that particular, you know, end of 2012 season, starting in Cleveland, when he, you know, basically tried to make Mike play RG3 after he'd been injured the week before against Baltimore.

And the doctors have said, no, he needs a week off minimum, probably more than that. But remember, RG3 doing the jogging, the workout, the pregame workout? Yeah. And then, you know, the complete and utter, you know, you go tell him you're not running that offense anymore. It was sabotage. He sabotaged his own team. By getting in the middle of coach and player, he submarine the 2013.

season being all in for week one. He put Mike in a very difficult situation. We can sit here and I could. I could go through a lot of things that Mike has misstepped on along the way. I'm not saying he was perfect. I've never said that. But that relationship where RG3 felt like he could go over the coach, all of them, right to the owner, as a very immature personality. Oh yeah. completely sabotaged that team, that situation. And for RG3, I think it ruined any chance he had to become a legitimate starting NFL quarterback. He would have been much better off staying with Mike and Kyle and having the two of them, along with Sean in the organization too. Remember, having those three people coach him up over the next few years than he was with Jay Gruden coming in.

I agree 100% with that. One more thing. I think they would have had a chance to continue to be a decent football team and to grow with RG3. Because Mike hadn't given up on RG3 until RG3 gave up on him, courtesy of the owner, pushing it. You know, I agree with all that. And this is why I have red flags up about what's going on right now. I know you do. But as bad as that was and as disenfranchised,

constructive as that was, I mean, number two is hiring Jim Zorn. I mean, come on. I mean, they had to hire the last guy left in the room as the football coach. That's how bad they screw that up. But it was Vinny's suggestion. You know, he was this. Yeah, but Dan Snyder wasn't a child. He wasn't sitting there and say, I mean, did he sit there and say, boy, that's a good idea?

I mean, my God. You know, hiring Jim Zorn, I think from the outside looking in, people would argue would be the worst thing they've ever done. To me, it's number two behind Marty because of where they were going with Marty in terms of the right direction. The thing is that there weren't many alternatives. Nobody wanted the job. Nobody wanted the job.

You know, this was another rock bottom. Steve McNula had strung them along. and then turned them down. Fossil, I asked Vinny about Fossil, and he said Fossil was never a possibility. I really thought he was, remember? They floated him out there. You know what? You talk to Fossil?

He'll tell you a different story. I know he will. Because I talked to Fossil a few years. We had him on the show. Yeah, so. And we asked him, how close were you to becoming the Redskins coach? He said he started to hire his staff. He was hiring his staff.

That's how close he thought he was. Right. So, uh, hiring Jim's life. I mean, come on. I mean, you know, That's still the face in a way of everything that's been wrong with the Redskins. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm looking at the two opportunities I felt like they had a chance to really build something. And he fired the guy that would have built something here in Schottenheimer.

And then he got in the middle of a relationship that could have developed and flourished in a completely different way. after, by the way, a season in which they won seven games in a row, this guy had the greatest rookie season in the history of the NFL at quarterback. He was coming off a devastating injury in the Seattle playoff game, but they had a 14-0 lead in that game. They looked like the hot team in the moment before he got injured. They looked like the hot team capable of going on a run in 2012. If he doesn't get hurt, I think they go to Atlanta the following week and win,

And then I think they probably lose to San Francisco in the NFC title game at Candlestick, because it was still Candlestick at the time. But that would have been the best postseason opportunity that they've had. But the injury in the Seattle game happened, and the 14-0-lead evaporated, and then the relationship deteriorated. And Mike has told us, and I've heard this from various other people, that the relationship was great until the Cleveland game. The Cleveland game changed it all because

Griffin, his father, and Dan, the three of them, were just beside themselves incensed that Kirk Cousins wasn't running the same offense that Griffin was running. They couldn't believe that that was the case. Meantime, you know, Cousins came in and bootlegged his way to like, you know, 300 yards passing and they blew Cleveland out. And by the way, Griffin had been running a lot of bootleg stuff too. But they didn't have any read option for Kirk. Why? Because Kirk was more advanced as a pocket-passing quarterback. As a traditional quarterback, Griffin wasn't there yet. We saw that clearly in 2013 and 2014.

Right. You know, this is where Dan knowing nothing about football, but convinced that he does, sides with RG3 and his father and says, you should be doing what Kirk Cousins just did in that Cleveland game. You shouldn't be running the football. That's really hard to believe that a guy in that position who had owned the team by that point for what, 13 years? Uh-huh.

would still be so naive and foolish to act like that. It's arrogance. Yeah, it is. But I do think, you know, perhaps the injury and his vulnerability to injury was always going to be a limitation if Griffin and, if Griffin and Shanahan, and Mike says about that, you know, from the moment he got there up until the Cleveland game or the Baltimore game when he got injured and the follow up to that, that their relationship was great. And RG3 was bought into everything they were doing.

And then it changed, you know, when Kirk came in and didn't run the read option. God, there's so many stories about what happened in, you know, in the buildup to the Philadelphia game, which was the following week where Griffin said. But again, they hired Jim Zorn to be their head coach. I know. That's pretty bad. I mean, to me, the swinging gate plays are perhaps the most symbolic place. in the history of the Dan Snyder ownership.

I mean, that, that, that's, that, that illustrates the Zorn era, which illustrates how inept this owner was that he put this team, this valuable franchise into the hands of a guy who couldn't keep his job as quarterback coach in Seattle, where he was beloved. I know. And now it's in the XFL. He's a head coach in the XFL. It's so, when you said, you know, that,

that's the moment that stands out for you. There's so many of those moments where you're just like, oh, my God, this guy, what he's done to this proud franchise. You know, going back to Spurrier's final home game in a cold rain in sleet at FedEx Field against the Cowboys, and they got beat 27 to nothing, Tommy. And I just remember thinking, God, this franchise is sunk to a rock bottom.

and then it was the Kansas City game in the 2008 season in October where the stadium emptied at halftime in what was still a competitive game in October. Then it was swinging gate at the end of that season. And then it was the 2013 game against the Chiefs, remember in the snow where the stadium was actually empty for the second half. and then we had this past year being down 40 to nothing in a game against the Giants at home. And then, of course, the Philadelphia game to finish up this season when it was, for all intents and purposes, a road game. There have been a lot of those moments.

There have been a lot of them. Swinging Gate is definitely up there. It's a, it is so symbolic of everything. I think it is. But there have been others that you just say. It's like, you know what? It's like a buffet where everything you pick, you won't be wrong. It's true.

It's true. You go in. It's a Vegas buffet. All you can eat for $12.95. And you know what? It's pretty good after you've spent eight hours on a crap stable. That's the bad side. The good side is a Weight Watchers meeting.

God. Where you're parceling out and counting the pieces that you can eat. I'm doing that right now, not Weight Watchers, but parsing out things. You mean somebody as as. It's not a program. I'm at self-imposed. As powerful as you, as well put together as you, you don't need a diet. Who's telling you that?

I got two more Snyder things real quickly. Number one reason his ownership has been a major failure. Number one reason. Give me one reason more than anything else that his ownership has been such a major failure. This is bad. This is really bad. And I apologize for it. No, you don't.

Yes, I do, because I don't like to do this. You do like to do this. No, I don't like to do this. Okay. I really don't. He's five foot six. So it's Napoleonic? Yes.

Yes. That's the number one reason? Yes. You're going to tell me that there haven't been other short successful owners? How tall was Jack Ken Cook? He was not a tall man. I get that. He was Napoleonic, too.

He just happened to be successful. Okay. Is that your real answer? Again, you don't think, and I'm not criticizing him for being small, it's something he can't control, but you, are you telling me that small man's disease doesn't exist? There's definitely, you know, a psychology to it. There's no doubt about that. But I, but I guarantee you, and I can't think of one off the top. Well, Red Our Back wasn't tall, was he? No, not, okay. Not everyone is.

It's going to be that way. Okay. Not every person under five foot seven is going to be that way. But to me, that's why you can't ever get him to change. This is why he'll never listen to anyone. Well, let me just tell you. This is why he'll never change and won't listen to anyone. Maybe my answer is sort of an extension of yours,

because I wrote down the number one reason his ownership has been a major failure more than anything else is personal arrogance. He has never, ever, because he and others in that organization that he's hired, they've never been able to admit that they are the problem. They've never been able to admit there's even a problem. And therefore, they've never attempted to fix the problem. And it's because there is tremendous arrogance in that ownership group. And in that owner in particular.

And no one who's getting a paycheck who wants to keep getting a paycheck is willing to tell him. Well, and perhaps, you know, that arrogance. And by the way, the other part of it is that I don't think he's dumb. I think that the organization has acted very dumb over the years. They've done a lot of dumb things. But I don't think he's dumb. But I also don't think that he's, you know, probably the most brilliant person. don't think he's a genius, but I think that, you know, the arrogance has led him to believe,

along with the wealth, that he is. And Tommy, have we ever heard him say, sorry for this? It's my fault. It starts from the top. The fish rots from the head down. And I am the problem here, and I've got to change. We've heard the ridiculous, and we still hear it today, from people and not far away from me at some point is I've learned. I've changed. We've heard that from him. I think we have we've heard, you know, I've learned a lot since I was a younger owner. Yes, I learned.

But have we ever felt that that was true, that he really believed it? No, I think he was just saying. His actions have never suggested. No, but let's not forget. This is the most stable. The football side of the organization has been in 25. years. What are you talking about? This franchise is outrageously unstable. I mean, I'm telling you right now, there's something going on right now inside the organization. I hope it doesn't play

out the way it could play out, because I'd like it to be at least for now, let's get to training camp, keep everybody else healthy, and get to the regular season and play some games. But trust me, it's not stable. It is not stable. The draft, the draft night. did not make this place stable. The results of the draft, I think people are happy with. The way the draft unfolded in that first round, there are many people in that building that are not happy about it. It's not stable.

So I don't know what you're talking about, the most stable in 25 years. Look, you know what could happen? What could happen? And this was the last thing on Dan Snyder. Number one thing he can do to create a winning future. First of all, he could luck into it. Dwayne Haskins could turn into Ben Rathusperger.

Yeah, he could. And he could luck into it. But really, what has to happen is there has to be an admission that he's the problem. Somehow, at 54 years old, and I doubt he will change at 54 or 55 years old. I doubt it. But if somehow there was an epiphany, if somehow, you know, and the business should be able to at least put him or send him in the right direction, the failure of this franchise that he owns as a business, the erosion of the fan base,

they have to recognize that, Tommy. There's lost revenue, there's lost customers that they have to see, but they've got to be able, he has to be able to admit. I haven't done it the right way. I've been too involved. I have hired people that aren't competent to do this. I have to find somebody and give that person total autonomy. contractually. Like I am not going to participate. I will be here as a sounding board

if you need me. This is your football operation, your football organization to run and go run it. And they've got to start over. This group, this group don't hunt. This dog don't hunt. Because Bruce Allen and Jay Gruden are not all of a sudden going to become 10 and 6, 11 and 5, 12 and 4 team president and head coaches. No, absolutely not. But this is one of the reasons why I like doing a show with you. You're a glass half-full kind of guy. More times than not.

You know, you came up with the word epiphany. That's a word of hope. Yes. You see, my word would be scandal. That would be my word. The Redskins fans need to hope that there is a scandal of such epic proportions that the NFL forces Dan Snyder to sell the team. I think that every Redskin fan would sign up for that right now.

As long as the scandal doesn't hurt somebody other than himself. Yes. So, no, it's you say epiphany, I say scandal. Well, let me just say that part of what my hope would be is any result that ends in him having to sell the team. That would be the start of a new future. You know, you're not guaranteed to get a better owner. No, you're not. But you're certainly not guaranteed to get a worse.

It would be impossible to get something worse. You know what, Tommy? Did we have this conversation, I forget. Other than John Wilkes Booth or, you know, any politician, has there ever been in the history of this city a more detested human being than Dan Snyder? Might have been Bob Short. No. The owner of the senators?

No. He moved. They poured a beer on them and hung him in effigy and an Oriole. game. I don't, I mean, I certainly remember that he sold the team and moved it to, you know, he moved it to Texas. Move the team to Texas. Now, I would say Bob Short. Really? Yeah. More than Dan Snyder. But the senators were never what the Redskins have been. Yeah, but there's no, there was never any love for the Senators like there was for the Redskins for 25 years. Look, baseball had been in D.C. This was the second version of the Senator since, you know, pretty much since the

turn of the century. And he took it away. Yeah. I, I say the last time you saw a guy hated as much in this town was probably Bob Shoe. Do you know what their attendance was in 1971? Yeah. I know what it was. But, I mean, most teams didn't break a million back then. And what was it, was it Ted Williams in 69 where they went 86 and 76? Yeah.

And but didn't get to the postseason. They finished second in the American League. I think they finished third. Third. I mean, was there, well, you wouldn't know because you weren't here, but was there. like tremendous fan support and optimism. No, there wasn't. I mean, you were coming off the riots in 68.

Yeah, right. People were afraid to go to the stadium. To go to the stadium. But that doesn't mean there weren't baseball fans in town that hated them for taking away their baseball team. Do you know how many? You know what? You could do worse.

And they almost did do worse. I mean, like one of the great things about looking back 20 years at when Snyder acquired the team is who else bid for it? Peter Angelo's was a bidder for this football team. A serious bidder. Well, the learners were interested in the team.

And then the group that had Gibbs involved. Yeah, Gibbs, for the guy from Arizona. Sam Grossman. Right. That would have been, I mean, most fans would have signed up for that.

But Peter. Who would have been worse, Angeloos or Snyder? Angelos. Really? Yeah, Anglos would have been worse. That's hard to believe.

And again, you know, like when you're, when you root for a lousy team, you seem to take sight of kind of comfort and pointing at the homeless guy next to you without the sleeping bag and say, well, look at him, he's worse. At least I got a sleeping bag.

That shouldn't make you feel better. Just because there's teams in this league that may be worse than you, the Cardinals are a worse organization than the Redskins, but at least they went to a Super Bowl in the past. Well, why? Because they got Kurt Warner. Yeah.

because somehow they got a Hall of Famer at that position, and he totally turned their fortunes around. And they drafted Larry Fitzgerald, which didn't hurt either. Right. But basically, I mean, there are organizations that are worse than the Jets right now seem to be worse than the Redskins. They fired a general manager who conducts the draft and hires the coach. I mean, that's Redskins like. So, but that, that's, that shouldn't be any comfort.

That doesn't help you. That doesn't help your team that there's worse. You're right. And there are worse. I mean, they're in the bottom, you know, 10% of sports organizations and all of sports. I mean, at this point, if you try to argue that they're not in the bottom 10 to 15% of worst run organizations, you're delusional because they are in that group. But they're not in the bottom 3%. You know, you're probably right.

They're probably three or four organizations that are even worse. So go ahead. Have a party. You're not the worst. Okay. So 20 years of Dan Snyder. By the way, I think a lot of people am thinking about your Bob Short thing. I think there are a lot of people listening that don't even know who Bob Short or had never heard the name Bob Short until you mentioned.

Well, consider this an educational lesson. I understand that. But the fact that you have to educate means that you're probably wrong on your answer. No. Because Dan Snyder doesn't need any. education. People all know who Dan Snyder is. But, you know, 50 years ago, they didn't know who Dan Snyder was. Well, because he didn't own the team. Well, but they knew who Bob Short was. If you want to play that game, based on the date, nobody hated Dan Snyder in 1971. Who's the more recognizable named owner in sports?

Bob Short or Dan Snyder? And I know Bob Short hasn't owned for whatever it is, 30 years. Dan Snyder right now. In 1971, it was Bob Short. Because Dan Snyder was six years old or whatever he was. Was he born? Yeah, he was born then. He was born then. Right. All right, let's do a quick word for Windonation and then get into some of the other things because, again, today is a menu of excellence. We've got a lot of things to get to.

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Buy two, get two free, buy four, get four free, no limit, zero percent interest for five full years, and a pair of tickets to Hershey Park while supplies last. 86690 Nation or windonation.com. All right. The Nats lost again last night to the Mets. They'll finish up their four games set with the Mets this afternoon. Strasbourg pitches. The Nats are now 19 and 30, 11 games below 500.

And still just nine back of the Phillies who have lost now, what, Aaron two in a row? I think the Cubs rallied again from a deficit to win last night late against the Phillies. They're lucky, and I said this to Aaron yesterday. today, Tommy, that they're in a division that is not very good. You know, at the top, I mean, they could be 12, 13 games back in the central or in the West right now. And we were all wrong about that because we thought the division was going to be very good. Right. I was checking out early this morning, CBSSports.com has the, you know, the playoff possibilities, you know, with baseball, the projection, the percentage projections of chances to make the postseason. And the Nats are still,

ahead of the Mets in the division as better chances to make the playoffs. And they still have like a 12% chance to make the postseason in terms of the projections. It means nothing. But I still would not, I still don't think that they will fire Dave Martinez. I think you agree with me. And to be honest with you, I don't think they should yet. I think there's still time to turn this around. It's a bullpen issue now more than anything.

You would agree with that, right? Yeah, I don't see them. I can see them turning it around to be competitive to wind up 500. Well, by the way, that is the projection on CBSSports.com is that they will win 81 games. You see, I don't see them being able to turn it around enough to win the NL East. The bullpen is, I mean, it's May, and you have to build pretty much a brand new bullpen. The last time Mike Resil did that was in July of 2000. 2017, right around the trading deadline when teams were looking to trade.

You got two months to go before you get to that point. Right now, the Nats are going to be using their 19th pitcher this year in just two months. They use 30. The most they've ever used in the season is 30, and that was last year in 2008 as well. They're going to go over that amount this year. So they've used 19 pitchers, and they're running a tryout camp for real. levers right now. And, you know, there's no trade to be had in the middle of May to get your Ryan Madsen and Sean Doolittle like there was in July. I just, I see the bullpen not being

as bad as it's been because it's been historically bad. I mean, I saw Buster only had tweeted the worst ERA in baseball right now. I think it's 6.89 or something like that. It's the second worst ERA in the modern era since 19. The worst ERA was the 1930 Phillies 8.03. The Nats are 6.89. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. None of them are teams that have played since 1950. Wow.

So this is historically bad. The odds say this isn't going to continue. I'm looking at this list. I mean, they're on a list with a bunch of teams from the 20s, 30s, and then 1950s is the most recent. Yeah, so, so I mean. The Browns were that St. Louis Browns? St. Louis Browns who became the Baltimore Orioles.

Right. So in the 50s, they became the Orioles, right? 54. Yeah. So I don't see it being that bad and I see them having enough talent to climb up to maybe 500, but I don't see them win in the division. That said, I don't see him firing Davey. I just don't see them do it. I, I don't think my, I don't think my is going to do it if he if they do it will be an ownership knee-jerk reaction and in a way it would be ownership admitting their worst mistake which was not bringing dusty baker back if they turn around and fire Dave Martinez at this point and again what's Buck Showalter doing Buck Showalter is probably sitting home counting the money made with the Orioles um Buck

Buck Buck is very tight with Mike they're very close friends but and I don't know if Buck wants to manage in the new reality of baseball. I mean, he's used to, I don't know how much he made with the Orioles, three or four million a year. He's not making that. I mean, the learners, I give him credit, they were headed a curve on not paying managers because Dave Martinez makes more than Alex Cora, who's the manager of the World Series champion Red Sox.

Nobody's paying managers these days. So I just, and again, I don't think firing Dave Martinez is going to do anything different. It's going to change anything. I mean, he did everything right last night. Right. And, I mean, you saw what happened. It was stunning.

People, people. Last night was incredible because I felt so badly for do little, and I felt badly for Dave Martinez, because it just looked like here's a guy that cannot get a break, cannot get anything to go his way, because he had brought in in the seventh, he had brought in grace to face two batters, which turned out to be the right move,

and he got out of the seventh and came in in the eighth with Barraclaw. Baraclaw got the first batter to strike out. Then there was a double, and there was a runner on second, when he got his second out. And then he faced Todd Frazier, and I'm watching this at bat and listening to JP, and JP is saying, I'm sorry, JP, FP is saying that, you know, and even Carpenter is saying, you want to be careful with Frazier here. You know, if you get ahead, that's fine, but if you get

behind, don't be afraid to walk him. If you watch that at bad, even at 2-0, he's trying to throw strikes. And he actually threw a couple of pitches that were super close to strikes, but he walked him on four pitches, and that was it. I mean, they were, he was trying to get Frazier to swing. I don't think he was, when he got to 2-0, that he decided to intentionally throw stuff out of the zone to put him on what was an empty first base. Doolittle comes in, and Davy, by the way, looked very confident as he walked out to the mound. He's got his second best pitcher on the team, and, you know, behind Scherzer. Right. And Sean Doolittle. Just need one out here, and then three in the ninth, and we win one

nothing. All right, boys, things are good. And the first pitch. First pitch, he's facing Gomez, is he hits him. Hits him on the first pitch. And you could see, like, the air went out of the balloon with Doolittle. And then he faces Lagaris. And he gets him to swing on the first pitch. And you're like, all right, maybe he can settle down. Maybe we'll get a double.

We'll just get a ground ball here and get out. And then it's a double into the gap in not one score, not two, all three runs score. Yeah. And then he faces Davis, who launches a three-run show. you know, after a long at bat, you know, and I think it was a two-two-count or three-two-count, something like that. It was six to one. And it was six to one.

In the blink of an eye. In a blink of an eye. And you saw, like, Doolittle's been so good for them. And it's like I couldn't get us through after a great start by Max. No offense for them last night. Again, they're facing the best, too. DeGrom. But they couldn't generate anything off of the Mets' bullpen.

No. Because I think DeGrom came out after six. Yeah. So that was typical last night of what we've seen. Not enough offense and then a bullpen meltdown. Yeah, and again, I don't see an answer to the bullpen. I think it'll stabilize somewhat at some point because, I mean, the odds are against them. I mean, they're going to have to find somebody at some point who can throw the ball over the plate

and get guys out with this tryout camp that they're running, basically. but for all you who are calling for Dave Martinez's head, look, I don't think they should have let Dusty Baker go. But Dave Martinez right now is not the problem with this team. Yep. They've got, you know, today to finish up, I mean, getting swept in a four-game set by a team that looked ready to fire their manager by the end of their last series. Right.

And then, you know, going into this weekend, you're going to face a Marlins team, which, by the way, I don't know if you know this, is won five in a row. They're facing the Marlins who have won five in a row. They swept the Mets, and they've won two games against the Tigers in Detroit, and now they're going to come in here for a four-game set that ends on Memorial Day. And, you know, that's one of those where, I mean, I could see. I could definitely see if they lose today, and then somehow they drop three or four against the Marlins at home.

I could see like the learners almost saying, we've got to do something here. Yeah, I could see, look, like I said, except that the Marlins aren't playing great. It's not like they're not playing well. I could see that. I mean, again, it just may say, well, I mean, we can't just keep doing this.

Even if it's wrong or right, we just can't keep doing this. You know, I'm just trying to see how far out the Nats are from last place, because with the Marlins having won all of those games in a row, the Marlins have probably gained a lot of ground on the Nats here. They clearly have. Yeah, the Nats, they're only two and a half back of the Nats for the fourth. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, these are the two worst records in the National League by a lot. Yeah. Like, it's not even close. Again, oh, here's the Poff, you know, the playoff, you know, potential percentage potential. It's 16.8% the Nats are right now to make the postseason. 9.6% to win the division. It's still ahead of the Mets,

but obviously Philly and Atlanta are the two front runners there. But they're projected to win 81.9 games. To get to above 500, that's an above 500 number from being 11 games below 500 would be quite the accomplishment, actually. Yes, it would. But it's not going to be good enough for the postseason. No, it's not. But you know what?

I'm curious, you know, and what I don't get is how fans are so, willing to say, well, you got to trade everybody and start over again. You hear this in all sports, but you hear it in baseball all the time. Well, you know, you got to break them up. You got to trade everybody. You definitely hear that in baseball and basketball. Yeah, and get prospects. Yeah.

Like prospects are gold that fall from the sky, you know? I mean, my God. I mean, like you have a team that has a core group of players that if certain circumstances were different, they'd be right there fighting for first place. And you, I understand the trade Anthony Rendon. Well, that's going to be the biggest topic right now between now and the trade. But I hear from people that want to trade Max Scherzer. Well, I mean, again, if you're not going anywhere.

You're not going anywhere this year. No, I agree with you. I think it's stupid too. It's like, it's like, oh, we're not going to be in the postseason. We can't win the World Series this year. We've got a bunch of great players, so let's get rid of them. Yes. Because next year, and by the way, it changes all the time in baseball, too.

You get teams that turn around from bad season to a playoff season all the time too. I mean, this is not. You're right. I don't, yeah. So stop with the rebuilding thing. Now with Rendon, it's different because if you don't get him signed to an extension, you potentially lose them with getting nothing back like the Harper situation. Yeah, look, the mistake they made with Harper was not that they didn't trade them,

was that they didn't become sellers. They didn't become buyers once they decided not to trade them. That was your view. I mean, once you decide to keep Bryce Harper when your five games added a wild card, then you got to go for it. Then you got to start acquiring talent. The learners didn't have the guts to trade Harper and then didn't have the heart or the willingness to open up their wallet to then acquire players for a stretch run.

You can't do that. Look, the bottom line is you can't afford to let Anthony Rendon get to that. point. You have to sign Anthony Rendon or else there will be a tremendous backlash. I agree with you on that. With this organization. And it won't take much to turn Nats Park into a ghost town. It won't take much. I mean, for all what they've done since 2012 and they're the third winningest franchise

in terms of wins, I think in all baseball, the Nats are since 2012. the learners have never done enough to plant the roots of a fan base in this town. They basically rode the coattails of their success since 2012, but don't understand the value of marketing so you can survive the tough times as well as the good times. And they'll be in trouble if tough times come along. The attendance this year is the lowest it's been, I think, in seven or eight years, since before the Harper 2012, beginning of them being really competitive. So you have a point.

I was a bit surprised when you said that, Ghost Town. I don't know that it's going to be a ghost town. First of all, you've got too many teams that you play a lot that are close enough by, that in the case of at least one of those teams, they are turning into a winning team, that you'll be able to fill it up with opposing fans. But beside that, because I know that's not what you meant. I think, I mean, it's not going to be what it's been when they've been competitive, but I don't ever see Nats Park being a total ghost town.

I think it could be. You know, Sunday night baseball, they're playing the Cubs. Yeah. Stadium was empty. There were a lot of empty seats. I was surprised. Beautiful night on Sunday. And now I get it, it's school year on a Sunday night.

People have to go to work on Monday. So I understand part of that's the play. but you're playing the Cubs on national TV. I was surprised at how small the crowd was. I mean, they have not anchored themselves enough for fans to feel the desire or the need to show up if they stink. It's interesting. I think, well, obviously you will get a major and significant decrease in attendance.

But when you say Ghost Town, I think, of, you know, Miami. It's never going to be that. No, it's never going to be Miami. So I, the, the thing is about the Nats, it has become, like, I'm still to this day not in favor of where I thought there would have been prettier places to put the stadium and even more convenient places, but it's a good stadium. It really is a good stadium and it's accessible and it's, it's a very nice park to go out.

You know, I went last week, uh, saw the, the Mets game last week. I like going to games there. Whether they're winning or not, I actually like going to games there. It's not, I think they'll always be, I think they've developed a core. And I think they've, I think they've developed a core, hardcore following, first of all, that are going to be there even in off seasons. And I think they've also developed themselves into, for the casual baseball fan,

a really good social outing, night out. I don't know that you'll ever see a ghost town. You'll see it decrease. I think that Nats have become more popular than I thought they would become in a short period of time. I think you'll be. I mean, the football's number one. I understand that. Despite what the Redskins have become, it is still the runaway number one.

But I think the Nats have a core group of fans that are pretty hardcore. I don't think so. Really? I think you'll be surprised. What are their television ratings doing this year? I don't know. I'd like to know that because I know a lot of people. that actually do watch these games.

Older people, your age, people your age love baseball. Well, I can't wait till you're my age. I can't wait to you're my age. By the way, one quick thing, Rizzo did say on your station with the junkies yesterday that they are aggressively trying to sign Anthony Rendon, so I would ask you, why haven't they gotten it done? I don't know. Does he want to sign here?

I think he, yeah, he does want to sign here. Then they must be not, they must be low-balling him. Well, again, I think, and I think it's on the baseball side as much as the ownership side. Why? I think he has a different idea of what he's worth compared to what the baseball people think he's worth. That said, there are other considerations at play. You have to sign Anthony Rendon. You have to pay the freight, whatever the freight is.

I think they should have paid for Bryce Harper. I think that would have been a waste. I think that they would have been better off from a business standpoint had they paid for Bryce Harper. I don't think so. All right. I want to get to a couple of other things, but real quickly, if you're listening to the podcast on iTunes, rate us and review us, please, if you haven't done it already, and I appreciate all of those, all of you who have done it.

Also, just to reiterate, Kevin Sheehan Show.com, for anybody that wants to listen to the podcast and hasn't figured out how to do it in normal podcast platform. Just tell them to go to the website, the Kevin Sheehan Show.com. I wanted to get to this thing that I read this morning, actually in front of both you and Aaron before the show started. And that is the league meetings yesterday. Something came out of it that basically, I'm sure I'm not the only person,

but to me it was so predictable that, and I was flummoxed why they hadn't figured this out a couple of months ago when they decided that replay was going to be a big part, that replay was going to be involved with past interference, both called and non-called. And I focused on what the final two minutes of a half in game when it went to the booth could become, because past plays have much of the time contact. So now if it's not being challenged in the final two minutes and it comes from the booth, we're going to see a lot of stoppages of play in the final two minutes,

because there are a lot of passes to begin with in the final two minutes. And now some jostling between a DB and an offensive wide receiver, we're going to hold it. It's got to go to the booth. We've got to get Al Riveron to check this one out. My God, he was going to be busy in the one o'clock window during the final two minutes of a half or game. Well, yesterday, they all figured this out. And remember Aaron, too, and again, I wasn't the only one,

but I mentioned the Hail Mary play. It's like every Hail Mary play has. contact. Are we going to sit there at the end of every half until these plays are reviewed and potentially flags are dropped when they weren't on the actual play? Well, this was addressed yesterday. Apparently, the league, the competition committee in an effort to clarify replay on pass interference, first of all, is going to do so by, more likely than not, this isn't final yet, but it's to be decided by the competition committee and will not need a league vote on this. That in the final two minutes, when it comes to pass interference, it's got to be a coach's challenge.

It won't be a booth review. The booth will handle everything else in the final two minutes, but as it relates to pass interference, that will have to be a coach's challenge on either a call or a non-call. So like the New Orleans, Rams, NFC title game, if Sean Payton had a challenge left, he would have been able to challenge that. It would not have come from the booth.

So that, I think, makes the most sense. That's what I suggested here two or three months ago when this came up. I said it's got to be a coach's challenge. I don't like this to begin with, including pass interference in it. But if you're going to do it, it's got to be a coach's challenge. Now, they have also clarified the Hail Mary thing. And the NFL's saying that the Hail Mary will be exempt from challenge or booth review. So it's going to be a call made on the field on a Hail Mary.

But they did not define what a Hail Mary is. Well, Kevin, you know what a Hail Mary is. You're Catholic. You know what Hail Mary is. Hail Mary full of grace. Yeah. Come on. Can you give me your Hail Mary right now.

Can you do it? Hail Mary full of grace. The Lord is with the blessed our thou among women. Blessers of the fruit of thy of Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for a sinner is now at the hour of death. Amen. That was great. It was only drilled into me.

And by the way, we got through it. Just barely. Yeah. And I think you got through it better than I did. But yeah, the Hail Mary would be defined. This is how I would define it. I would say it's a play that comes from the 40-yard line or further out in the final seven seconds of the half.

A typical play is an average of around seven seconds. Typical Hail Mary plays probably, put it this way. With 10 seconds to go, you're usually not throwing the Hail Mary from the 40. You're trying to get a play to the sideline or whatever. or you're taking a legitimate deep shot. But once you get below seven seconds, then you're looking at it as we got one play here, and if it goes to the end zone,

it's more likely than not a Hail Mary. So they're going to have to define that, because then it'll just rely on the officials calling it, which they never call. You never see a PI on a Hail Mary, but the coaches won't be able to challenge, and that won't be a booth review, but they just have to define that.

So that would be my suggestion. Seven seconds or less, a play that comes from outside the 40-yard line. because you can, with seven seconds to go from the 35 or the 30 or the 25, you can run a normal pass play. You don't have to throw it straight up in the air with three receivers and a bunch of DBs hovering around them into the end zone. It can be a normal pass play that you score on.

Yes. I'm with you. Okay. But I am happy that they're including pass interference on replay. It's amazing to me, though, that they can sit there and think about this and get pressured into it, by the way, by New Orleans. ownership and Sean Payton and everything else, which is the part of it that bothers me. The rule itself, to me, I'm not moved one way or the other, other than I foresaw, as others did as well, this

problem in the final two minutes with booth reviews on PI. I'm just amazed that they don't see that in the moment. Like they're out there in Arizona for the league meetings and they're coming up with all this stuff and somebody doesn't stand up in the meeting and say, you know, these past plays, there's a lot of contact that never gets called. And now what are we going to do? We're going to go to New York for a booth review on every throw that has contact in it in the last two minutes, how much time are we going to add to the end of ads and games? Maybe. Maybe.

Why don't they understand that in the moment? Like, we fans do. Maybe in a meeting where you have a lot of people that want to say something, once you finally get the action through that you want to get through, then you just want to get out of there. And the details, you can work out over conference calls. Maybe that's it. And they came up.

It just could be a logistic thing. of managing the vote on this. You know what? That's probably true. They probably left there saying, we're all going to think about it. We've got this part of the past, but we can tweak it in May at the next round of league meetings.

Everybody think about what's holding, what could be the problem with this. But, you know, one of the reasons they rushed into it was this pressure from New Orleans. Well, good. They should have felt pressure. Come on. I mean, a lot of teams over the years have been screwed.

Right. So that doesn't make it better. Here's the other thing that came out of the league meeting yesterday. Thankfully, the Chiefs, you know, when they couldn't stop Brady in overtime going down and scoring a touchdown. What an injustice. Yeah, and they wanted, they were proposing now that both teams guaranteed a possession and overtime. It was not voted on yesterday because it does not, according to reports, have the support to move forward, thankfully. But don't you worry that it will eventually wind up?

Well, it says the Chief's proposal will be reconsidered. next year. But the rule, look, I was fine with sudden death on a walk-off field goal, but I really like, the one thing I don't like about the rule now is I don't like the shortening to 10 minutes. I think that that actually creates the opportunity for an unfair advantage for the team that gets the ball first, drives down and ends up with a field goal, but leaves their opponent with very little time to do anything other than get into field goal range to tie the game. So I think it should go back to a 15-minute opportunity. But no, you stop them.

I agree. You can hold them to a field goal, and you're going to get your chance, or you can force them to punt, and you can get your chance. Just don't let them drive 80 yards or 75 yards for a touchdown. That was it that came out of the league meetings, except for recommendations, more safety recommendations, including banning some of those drills like the Oklahoma. drill and the bull in the ring and some of those other, you know, those.

No words, a Marty Schottonheimer. A Marty Schottenheimer drill, which, by the way, if you recall, they were doing Oklahoma Drills Day 1 and Bruce Smith and Daryl Green were upset about it. They were not happy. They were not happy about it. Lastly, we get a Kevin Durant discussion here real quickly, and I'm going to pull up his Twitter because it was a dispute sort of that he got into with Chris Broussard. Forgive me.

I don't know who Chris Broussard is working for now. Does he still work for ESPN and write for ESPN? Or not. Aaron, do you know? Do you have any idea? I'm not sure. Okay. You know, he runs.

I'm sure I can figure it out. Undisputed. He works for undisputed. What's undisputed? It's others name is invisible. Because it's pretty much what it is. Is undisputed the show with the guy that used to be on with Stephen A? Yes.

Yeah, that's Skip Bayliss and Shannon. Oh, it's undisputed. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess he's a part of that show, which is on. Here it is. FS1. Okay, he runs, and he was doing this while he worked at ESPN, which is, I mean, unconscionable that you were able to do this and ESPN get away with it.

He was running a Christian men's organization. Yeah, what's wrong with that? Well, I mean, basically they were lobbying for things. They were, I mean, he was a political. He was using his platform on ESPN to promote and to market that? But he was a religious political activist. Okay. Working for ESPN.

What's wrong with that? That's a conflict of interest. You can't do that. Why? You can't know, look, I know this is old-fashioned. You can't use your job for the purposes of helping. You can't even have the appearance of having any other interests. What's the conflict?

Okay, Kevin. I can't be long. I know this is old school and nobody pays attention to this, but I don't belong to any kind of cause organizations, okay, because I consider myself a journalist. Not on this show. Not on this show. Not on radio, you're not.

No, but, and, you know. But you're more, see, I, you're a columnist. I know that, but I, I mean, I, I, you're an opinion maker. But people still have to believe in your credit. ability that you're not trying to that you're not trying to put forth an agenda. Okay. That's all. And anyway, I mean, so

he's involved in that to and look, never one of my favorite guys to begin with. And it's just another embarrassment for KD who has nothing to do except chase people on social media now since the

Warriors don't need them to win the NBA title. Right? Yes. That's what I want to get to. That's why I brought up this story, because it's the KD reaction to this, because we just went off on a little bit of a tangent on Chris Bursar.

He just happens to be a part of this story, where on this show, undisputed, he had essentially said this, what's happening with the Warriors right now is Kevin Durant's worst nightmare. That, you know, it's like the way you used to feel when you went on vacation and everybody loved the show much more when you weren't there. It's not true.

But you've been waiting all shows to say that. But actually, I only said it because you would have said it first in opposite. But he basically said that this is Kevin Durant's worst nightmare, that they are winning without him, that if they go on to win a title, it really in many ways, you know, diminishes what's happened the last two years. By the way, I think that's true to a certain extent. Yes. So.

I think it does. I think it makes them seem like an accessory. So he apparently, as part of this, went on and on about all the conversations, the hours and hours of conversations about basketball and faith and media and lots of different things, this relationship that he's had with Kevin Durant, where they have texted back and forth over the years and sometimes for hours upon hours. So Durant basically responded by saying, to Stephen Broussard

cap cap cap cap cap cap cap is that short for captain I don't is that his nickname Aaron help me out with that one What's that mean? I don't know about that one. Okay but whatever it is

he said you don't have my number man M-A-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N So Broussar responds saying Look I'm talking about our DMs together on Twitter and

Instagram. We've DMed back and forth. He used text, but who cares? I mean, DMing is the same as texting, and that was Broussard's point, which, by the way, I totally agree with. So Durant essentially said, we've never texted, but didn't dispute that they haven't DM'd each other on Twitter and Instagram, which was the first, was the reaction to Broussard, and Broussard said, okay, we didn't text, we DMed on Instagram, and he basically posted a video of himself in his car, I think, saying, you know, that he's not going to show everybody because he respects Kevin Durant. And those are private conversations, but they were direct messages on Instagram and Twitter. At this point, Durant has not responded to that.

So Durant tried to make a big deal out of Broussard saying, we've had these conversations for hours upon hours via text. And Durant's like, you don't have my number, man. Well, Kevin Durant's clearly hurt that Broussard would say that this is his worst nightmare, that he's putting out there the narrative that a lot of people believe. Well, he also said in response to Broussard, I see a little exaggeration there, buddy. My worst nightmare? Question mark, question mark, question mark.

You sure that this is the worst that it can get? Question mark, question mark, question mark. So he responded to the direct criticism before he responded to. the, you know, the fact that you don't have my number. No, his worst nightmare would have been if he had signed with the wizards. That would have been his worst nightmare. Meantime, he's also responded, Aaron says on Instagram to a lot of the fans that have responded to this.

He also responded on Twitter to a guy that said, who responded to Durant saying, calm down, we know you're sensitive. And he said, you write, let me chill before my sensitivity flare up. You real one, bro. So do you like to walk down these pets? This is not a world that we live in. I understand that. That's why it tends to be entertaining to me.

But I think the bigger takeaway is that he's showing what we know he has, and that is hyper sensitivity to criticism. Yeah. You know, he created fake Twitter accounts. Remember to promote his, you know, promote himself and to defend himself. and it's just, I guess it's not, I haven't talked to you about this, but I did this on the show the other day, and I would ask you to read it if you have time, you won't. But anyway, this guy on ESPN wrote this story about Bob McKillop and Steph Curry.

I don't know if you read it, you probably didn't. But within that story was a story about Bob McKillop, the coach of Davidson, and his long, you know, his long lasting scar for having kicked up a, player off a high school team back in the 1960s or 70s, early 70s, I'm sorry, because the guy showed up to practice late and he was running suicides and he couldn't finish the suicides. And he said, you want to quit? And he kicked him off the team. And he said, you know, he went through this whole thing, how that sort of scarred him. And the reporter's been able to sort of reconnect the two after all these years. And this guy for all these years would open up

the newspaper, go online in recent years and root for Davidson to lose. He still has had this hatred for MacKillop this old. And McKillips felt that, you know, felt all these years that he didn't do the right thing. But in the process of sort of explaining that story, McKillips said there's a sensitivity and an anxiety and a stress level that players today have, that you just couldn't get away with some of the stuff that you could get away with years ago. And Durant's part of that generation. He's part of that hype, you know, social media has created a lot of this where they're so concerned with what people

think and how people respond and what people say in the media and how fans respond to them. And this guy really has shown over the last couple of years to be even more sensitive than the average player of today. You know what's interesting. Nobody, you would argue, was more sensitive to criticism than Michael Jordan, except he responded on the court. He responded much differently. Yes, he did. He responded on the court. Yeah. Yeah, he'd say, okay. He looked for everybody that shorted him. Everybody that didn't think he was as great as he was, and he said, really, I'll hang 70 on you tonight. So that was a different kind of response. But he was very sensitive to criticism and used it as fuel.

Aaron, are there any, like, gems of responses on Instagram from Durant? Not really other than it's just, he's going to random people. Like, he's very clearly vanity searching himself and finding fans who are like, oh, maybe the Warriors are better without Kevin Durant and responding to him. So why don't we do that? Why don't we type up something and see if we can get them to respond to it? Let's type up something that really will hit them hard. By the way, this really is, this was so predictable.

You know, it would not have been predicted. I mean, they're very, what other situations like this in sports right now where you had a player join a championship team, win more championships, be called as recently as two and a half weeks ago, perhaps the best player in the game also comes with this incredible sensitive side, where he is very sensitive to criticism. He gets hurt and the team keeps winning. It was so predictable how this would play out.

And Broussard accelerated it by saying this is his worst nightmare, but I think a lot of people felt the same thing for Duran. They haven't won the title yet. No, they haven't. But if they do, and I don't think he's going to play, I haven't heard any update to it, but I think the chances are more likely than not that he doesn't play in the finals. This was not a torn Achilles, but a strained calf or partially torn calf is many weeks. May not be six, seven months, but it's two months.

Well, they'll all be sorry if the Warriors lose. Then he'll show them. He'll say, see? Let's type up a tweet that basically calls him out. for not having the guts to come to Washington and create his own legacy. Not to be able to play for the Wizards. You know, he didn't have the guts to come home and create a legacy where nobody would call into question.

Instead, he chose to be an accessory. You know, one of the reasons I think he didn't come home is I think that it was going to be a difficult situation for him to be so close to home and so close to some of the people that helped raise him. You know, like the, remember, one of the stories in that during that time period before free agents started where you know there was the story of one of his youth coaches an aAU coach perhaps that you know was criticizing him for durant turning his back on him and not giving money to certain people that needed money i recognize i mean that that's the kind of stuff and i feel for kevin grant on something like that like you

you know somebody who's a youth coach who helps develop somebody's somebody's game and character to also have their handout is the worst kind of person. But anyway. But I'm just trying. We need to get a response from them. We need to provoke them here. Well, what you just said would be something that could provoke them. Yeah.

Should I do that? You do it. Okay, I'll do it on Twitter. You're always better. No, I won't. I can't do that. Why? I can't bring myself to do that.

Why? I just can't. Because that's low life behavior. You know what that is? That's the word that I hate, trolling. Yeah, I know. You hate that word. I hate that word.

You hate sense of urgency. No, I like sense of urgency. I like that. Okay. But trolling is another word for the sensitive generation when they're criticized. If somebody writes something that's critical, they're trolling. And I don't really want to troll and just write something to get a response from this guy. I'm not going to do that.

I just thought it would have been fun for you to do it. Of course. It's always fun for me to do it. I'll think about it. I will think about it, and I'll have an answer for you later today or tomorrow. Actually, my answer will come in the form of a tweet potentially. Yes. Yeah, well. You wanted to mention Gibbs getting into the NASCAR Hall of Fame.

Again, you know, to me, this solidifies him as the greatest coach in American sports history. He wasn't the coach. He was the owner. Well, to me, he's the coach. Okay, fine. I know what you're saying. He hires the drivers. He decides who drive what cars. he hires the crews and all that stuff.

He's the face of Joe Gibbs racing. And, you know, NASCAR is a sport. I mean, it's recognized as a sport. And now he's in the Hall of Fame of two major professional sports for what he's accomplished in those sports. I mean, nobody, look, I always thought that you could put Gibbs in every conversation as the greatest football coach ever. Right.

based on the fact that he won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks, none of which are Hall-famers. That alone puts him in the conversation among the great football coaches of all time. Now, to go into another sport and to create the same standard of excellence and the same standard of winning

that they put him in the Hall of Fame sets him apart from everybody else who has called himself a coach in this country. he's uh he's he's he's really a winner like just the definition of of winning in a winner and everything he touches has always turned to gold it's amazing it's actually you know going back to our earlier conversation i've always wondered what he really thinks of dan schneider on a lot of levels but i know he does um and the you know and other people who have been here have defended, Dan, because they, because I think, you know, they, they know that there are owners

in sports that are worse that are non-supportive when it comes to giving you what you need to win. But Gibbs, the ultimate in Delegator, you know, the ultimate in, you know, being humble and not arrogant and, you know, letting people do their jobs. I mean, he was the head coach of this football team and didn't have anything to do with his defense. He gave him. He gave to Richie Pettibone and said, that's your room, that's your group, you do what you think, I'm going to handle this group. I'm going to handle the offense. And, you know, and Richie, remember, you know, Richie got a lot of credit. Still to this day, people will say that Joe Gibbs would have not accomplished what he accomplished without Richie Pettibone as his defensive coordinator.

And you know what Joe says? You're right. Yeah. You know, and I don't know if that's true or not. I know that Richie is an all-time great defensive coordinator. But I also, also think that Joe Gibbs is an all-time great head coach and would have figured out a way to have the same success with or without him. But I've always wondered what, you know, if he were injected with truth serum, what he would really say about Snyder. Well, I just can't imagine him having good things to say if he was on, if he was injected with truth serum. That's why, that's not the truth. That's simply not the truth. Yeah. So the thing is, though, for his four years here, those were the four years and Vinny told us this when Vinny was on. Those were the four years where Dan

really did step aside. He had this reverence for Gibbs and he didn't get in the middle of it. Now, you can look at 2006. That offseason is one of the worst off seasons in franchise history, but Joe was involved. But Joe delegated too. Joe delegated to Vinny. He let people, you know, he let people, you know, go ahead and do things and probably was a mistake for him to delegate to some of the people he delegated to. But anyway, and one of the things that we talked about before to show that I had remembered and doing some research on Joe last night that people tend to forget. He was a national racquetball champion. Yes.

At the age of 35. When he was a coach and assistant coach. He played a lot of racquetball and I think competed in racquetball when he was here as the coach. He was a national champion and then finished second the second year. I mean, how competitive and amazing is that? I know. It's so competitive, such a winner, yet came off as a guy with such humility. Yes.

And so likable. I mean, no level of arrogance. None. None that we could ever see. You know, yeah, I mean, you know, part of his legacy, you know, his winning legacy is just outworking people. Like Joe Gibbs, the stories of him. you know, sleeping in his office and missing out on his boys in their childhood are legendary. He just thought, you know, because he would say over and over again in a very, you know,

self-deprecating way that he was a PE teacher. You know, I grew up as a PE teacher and I'm not really that smart. So I had to work really hard. But, you know, that's not true either. He was smart, but he did outwork everybody. Yes, he did. But congratulations. Yeah, congratulations to Coach Joe.

Two other things real quickly. Joanne Howard got the Michigan job, Aaron. I'm glad that Ed Cooley didn't get that job because I think Ed Cooley's a phenomenal coach. Joanne Howard really is one of those wild card hires, you know, a Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullen type of, you know, former player, you know, Penny Hardaway, you know, hires. So I have no idea how it will work out. But he's replacing one of the best coaches for a long time in the country at a pro. that's really had some incredible success recently. And then lastly, unless you've got something else,

I'm looking forward to game five tonight. I would love to think that Toronto could win a game in Milwaukee. And I hope they can. If you missed, by the way, the Ryan Rosillo interview yesterday, we talked a lot about the NBA and past NBA stuff. Listen to that from yesterday's show. Ryan was really good. But I'm, the number is seven.

if you forced me to play this game, I think I'd lay the seven and take Milwaukee. I still think they're the better team. And Kauai really did look like he was on fumes. And apparently Lowry's a little banged up too. If they're going to win this series, it might be the seventh game in Milwaukee, but I don't think they're going to win this series.

I want them to. But I'm looking forward to tonight. Last night was, I think, the first night in a long time, we didn't have any basketball. Yeah, I know. So do you have any feeling on it? You don't care, do you? No, I don't particularly care.

I like to see Milwaukee win. I like to see Milwaukee Golden State. Drake won't be able to get in the middle of the action tonight because the games in Milwaukee, he'll have to wait until game six. Can't buy a court side seat? Well, I guess he could. He could buy it, but it would be a little bit more dangerous on the road for him to do what he's been doing,

which is basically giving Nick Nurse back rubs during the game. I want to see him get teed up at some point. It would be awesome. Fans can't. Sure. It would be a bench technical for the team. If he's out on the court as a fan. Well, they can toss him.

Right. And they can issue a technical if they want. This is the thing. There's been a lot of, Janice's agent said, let me just find that real quickly, said about Drake's, you know, behavior during these games. Here it is. Imagine a gig and an athlete on VIP seats right next to the band,

stands up on the stage just to show off during the entire game, knowing cameras are on them, occasionally even massaging the singer. Security and him, both allow it. Never seen anything as disrespectful as this before. Closed quote. It is, it's over the top. It's definitely, and it doesn't bother me that much. But it is to, it doesn't bother me, except when he's actually on the court, you know, you can't participate as a fan. I guess not. In the action.

You can scream and yell and do whatever, ever you want. He is now essentially crossed the line of being a participant. They can't allow that. I'm looking forward to the game tonight. It's a game five in the conference finals. Kauai Leonard's so much fun to watch. Do you have anything else? Because you're searching through your phone there. I just want to remind everybody that you can listen to me and Andy Pollan this Saturday and Sunday morning, 9 to 1 on 10, 7, the fan.

And actually, we're on Monday Memorial Day as well from 6 to 10 in the morning. I'm going to listen because we will not have a show on Memorial Day here today. We're not going to have a show. So we're on from 6 to 10 Monday morning as well. Sounds good. All right. Good to see you. Same here, boss.

Back tomorrow, Van Pelt. I think we'll be on with us tomorrow. We missed him today. That was my fault, actually. And we'll do a lot more on skins, OTAs, and maybe even some Dan Snyder ownership stuff. All right. Enjoy the day.

Thanks.