The Kevin Sheehan Show - 30 Years Since Washington's Last Lombardi

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

Kevin with a journey back 30 years ago today when the Washington Redskins beat the Buffalo Bills to win Super Bowl 26 in Minneapolis. He recapped the 37-24 win over the Bills using the actual calls from Pat Summerall and John Madden on CBS. MVP Runner-Up safety Brad Edwards and Skins' great Joe Jacoby joined Kevin with their memories of that season, week, and the big game. Aaron Schatz/Football Outsiders joined the show to discuss why Football Outsiders ranks the '91 Redskins as the greatest NFL team of all-time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. The Buffaloville, again, the AFC's best team make their second straight Super Bowl appearance, loaded with all sorts of offensive weaponry. The hogs are the heart and soul of the Washington Redskins, paving the way for football's highest scoring team.

It's a dream matchup, the two best teams in football, on a day made for dream. Chiefs and Redskins, the Buffalo Bills, Super Bowl number 26. I'm Pat Summerall here with John Madden, and in spite of all you've heard and read and everything that's been said, these two teams remain to each other at least somewhat of a mystery, and I think that's pretty good, don't you? I think it's very good.

I like the purity of it. You know, all year you could see this match coming, like a collision course. The Buffalo Bills were the best team in the age, They had the best record. They were the best for all year. The Washington Redskins were the best team in the NFC. I kind of like the fact that they didn't play each other. The way you can say, well, just a month ago, this happened, so I think this is going to happen. They didn't play each other. And, you know, we don't know. The fans don't know. The press doesn't know. The players and coaches don't even know. As Joe Gibbs said yesterday, he said, we could kill them. They could kill us or it could be a tight one.

30 years ago today, that's how it sounded on CBS's coverage of Super Bowl 26, Pat Summerall and John Madden from the Metrodome in Minneapolis as Washington, the NFC champion, got ready to face Buffalo. Redskins Bills, Super Bowl 26, 30 years ago today, will be 95% of this show today on this Wednesday, January 26th, 2020. joining me on the show today will be Brad Edwards, Brad, of course, the starting free safety on the 91 team, the runner-up MVP of that game to Mark Rippen in 1991. Joe Jacoby will be a guest on the show with me today. And then Aaron Schatz will finish it up with us today. Aaron is the creator of the DVOA metric that I refer to often from football outsiders. He's the founder of football outsiders. They have ranked consistently over the years, the 1991 Redskins, as the greatest team of all time in the era in which they've been measuring teams.

He will join us at the end of the show and we'll find out why the 91 skins are so highly thought of. They're not the only one. Fox Sports and others USA Today and others have ranked the 1991 Redskins as if not the greatest Super Bowl winner of all time, certainly one of the top Super Bowl winners and top teams of all times. So that is the show today. We don't get a chance to do this that often. And I know that I am a memory lane guy, maybe more so than some of you want. But I will promise you this. I'm not going to spend a lot of time doing the comparative, you know, the 91 team in that era of Joe Gibbs's and Jack Kent Cooks and Charlie Casserleys and Bobby Bethard's Redskins to what's happened to this franchise over the last 22 years. This is not about what's current, but it's about honoring a past great championship team. Who knew 30 years ago, that would be it. I certainly didn't. nobody that had lived through that era.

Four Super Bowls in 12 years, three Lombardi trophies, consistently being one of the teams to beat in an era of great NFC teams in the division, the Cowboys and the Giants, and the Eagles were certainly on the come. In the NFC in general, the Bears and the 49ers specifically, what a great era it was. and Washington's greatness during that era followed an era of George Allen from 1971 through the end of the 70s that had started the ball rolling on Washington's football team, the Redskins, being one of the premier franchises in the sport, one of the most respected franchises in the sport, and one of the biggest winners in the sport. Yeah, I don't think, you know, in 1991, after a 20-year run of being totally relevant that anybody could have anticipated what the next 30 years would be like. But again, nothing really today on today's show about the current state of affairs.

Now, before we get into what happened 30 years ago today, I am going to just mention the other sporting event from last night that I wanted to discuss, which was the. the Wizards collapse against the Clippers. If you don't know at this point, it's the second biggest collapse of what they call the play-by-play era. 35-point lead lost to the L.A. Clippers in a 116 to 115 defeat at Capital One Arena. The Wizards led 66 to 31 late in the second period, had a 30-point halftime lead, 66 to 36, and got outscored 80 to 49 in the second half. You know, you really don't have to go very far to describe it to somebody who didn't see it because when you give up 80 points in a half and blow a 30-point lead, it's defense.

All right? Keep it simple, stupid. It's defense. And it was because the defense was horrendous. It was Matador. Whatever you want to do, OLA, I've got your lane directly to the rim, and there's nobody there to resist you, except for this piece of red cloth. That was it. It was terrible to watch.

There were so many instances in which they didn't even get back on defense. It seemed to be a layup drill, whether it was a made shot on the wizard's end or a miss shot. Many times it was an and one, it seemed like, because the one guy left with three. would foul the guy as he was on the way to the rim. It was pathetic. It was an absolute embarrassment defensively by a team that got absolutely throttled in their last game by the Celtics. 116 to 187 on Sunday, a 29 point loss, giving up 51, by the way, to Jason Tatum in a game in which I think the Celtics made nearly 50% of their threes. you know, Washington with that loss, a devastating loss, one of the worst losses really

in franchise history when you think about it in terms of the collapse, drops them to two games below 500. They played a Clippers team that, oh, by the way, doesn't have Paul George, doesn't have Kauai Leonard, hasn't had Kauai Leonard all year long. They really weren't playing starters in the comeback, guys like Batum and Zubots, etc. And they had essentially eight guys that were eligible. And they came from a 35 point deficit to win the game. Second biggest comeback in the play-by-player in NBA history. So defense was number one. But I did want to mention a couple of things for those that didn't see it because it was really disgusting to watch. At the end of the game, as the 36-point lead was getting whittled away, possession by possession,

you still got to the fourth quarter and the wizard still had a 17-point lead, even though they had been outscored in the third quarter, 40 to 27. And then the clippers kept coming and then all of a sudden, with about seven and a half minutes to go, and I had been focused on the Maryland Rutgers game. Really good win, by the way, for the Terps. I told you that this was a capable team that they didn't stink and they were going to win some games that you didn't expect them to win. They've won now two straight games as an underdog against Illinois and Rutgers. In fact, they have Indiana at home on Saturday, and if they

get that one, people are going to start talking about the Terps as a hot team that could put themselves back into contention for the NCAA tournament with another big win or two. Their guard play was outstanding. Eric Iyalla and Fats Russell combined for 45 points on 10 of 17 shooting from behind the arc. Iala hit a 33-footer at one point in the game with still 15 seconds left on the shot clock. He was feeling it. Anyway, back to the Wizards collapse. As they were whittling the big lead down, I started to pay attention to the Wizards game again and then proceeded to see what happened over the final, really four and a half minutes in particular. Because the Wizards, they'd cut the lead to, at one point, they'd cut the lead to eight. It was 90,

to 88, and then the Wizards pushed the lead back to 11, and they were up 11 with four and a half minutes to go. And then, you know, they were up, by the way, by eight points with 34 seconds to go in the game. Now, as they were cutting that 11-point lead down a couple of times and then the wizards were extending it back, it was terrible defense overall. In some of the shots the Wizards were making were off of possessions that were just embarrassing to watch. I mean, Beale made a couple of big shots off of possessions where it just seemed like a turnover was on the verge of happening. The Wizards checked out with the big lead. They thought it was over and they stopped playing, period. They certainly stopped defending, but the offense wasn't much better either, and it

became a turnover fest. And when it wasn't a turnover fest, it was a near turnover fest that somehow miraculously ended in a bucket, which is why they still had an eight-point lead with 34 and a half seconds left in the game. And that's where I'm going to just mention the disgust that I had. So up 113 to 105, they, Mantras Herald just in the middle of the floor, before the clippers had even crossed half court, ended up fouling Terrence Mann. Like, what are you doing? You're up eight. What are you fouling for two seconds into the shot clock? Man makes both free throws. That's 113 to 107. All right. Herald gets fouled on the other end. By the way, they shouldn't have been shooting as quickly as they were shooting. They should have been burning clock.

But he goes to the rim hard and he's fouled. He makes one of two free throws, 114, 107. And after the second miss free throw, and this is not an exaggeration. Go back and look. the clippers throw the ball down the court and Amir coffee, who I love, by the way, loved him in college at Minnesota. Amir coffee goes in and dunks to cut it to five. And if you look at this actual play, the Wizards off of a missed free throw, not a miss shot where you might have two guys going, three guys going to the offensive glass, off of a miss free throw, four players of their five on the floor, barely crossed half court getting back on defense. So it's a five-point game. And then, you know, they fouled.

The Clippers fouled. They fouled Kyle Kuzma. He made the first for a six-point lead, missed the second. And after the missed second free throw, the Clippers come down and Luke Kinnard, Dookie, pulls up from 35 feet and drops one in, and it's a three-point game. By the way, before he made that show,

shot to listen to Glenn Consor, who was on the television call with Justin Coocher. They were talking about how the wizards, you know, the game was over and the wizards were going to notch, you know, their 24th win of the year, but that it really didn't feel good because of the big lead that they had blown. Like, it didn't really feel like a win. Well, it wasn't a win. And when Conard made that 35-footer, you hear Glenn go, this thing ain't over yet. No, it wasn't.

because the Wizards, after calling a time out and moving the ball, advancing the ball into the front court, couldn't get the ball in bounds. This has been a problem a lot for this team. It was a problem with Scott Brooks. I've noticed it as a problem at times with Wes Hunsell Jr. They need to get the ball in bounds against pressure in a big spot, and they struggle to do it. I see that a lot, you know, at the college level and the NBA level. Now, the Wizards sometimes just run what I like to refer to is Operation Cure. get open. That's no way, by the way, in a pressure situation to get the ball in bounds when you have to get it in bounds for any basketball team to operate. Even when you have the quickest guy on the floor, Operation Get Open is stupid. Okay, run something. Screen to get your best free throw shooters open. Typically use the screener as your best free throw shooter because the screener is typically the one that's

going to be open. Now, they did run something. that resembled and out of bounds play to get it in. But the guys were like moving at three-quarter speed. And Kuzma didn't get the ball in bounds. Five second violation. I actually thought it was a quick count. But nonetheless, he should have thrown it into KCP. He was open briefly. And now the clippers have the ball down three. So what are you going to do? Well, the Wizards didn't have any timeouts left and the clippers didn't have any timeouts left and the wizards looked completely discombobulated completely disorganized they didn't know whether or not they should foul up three um maybe they did know but the execution was poor because luke canard got the ball on his hands and dinwiddy was near him

and then beale was on him and it looked like beale was trying to foul him to give the foul to put him at the line down three but he didn't really foul him hard enough but he's reaching and as he's reaching and I by the way, it's a very, you know, especially when they get into range of being able to pull up, you got to be careful. You don't want to shoot them, you don't want to foul them in shooting motion where they get three free throws. But it was so indecisive, so clueless. And Conard pulls up and Beals reaching late. I don't know that he actually fouled him, but it doesn't matter. He was putting himself into position to be called for the foul in shooting motion. Conard buries the three, goes to the free throw line, makes the free throw. And incredible

from down 36 with 1.9 seconds left in the game. The Clippers are up 116 to 115. You'll, I mean, think about this week, some of the things we have seen that really we just don't see the Kansas City Buffalo game. And then last night, Clippers Wizards, up 30 at the break, up 36 right before the break, and they lost. By the way, the final 1.9 seconds were absolutely an embarrassment to the Wizards. And this is where I don't get it personally. First of all, they didn't have a plan, really, for 1.9 seconds down 1, needing to go the length of the court. They didn't have a time out left. Kuzma chucked it down the court for Harold.

There was no play run. Harold couldn't come up with it. The ball went out of bounds. The clippers got it with one second to go. And they imbounded the ball and the Wizards didn't even foul. They tapped out. They conceded. They gave up.

They're down one. How about since you just had a five-second violation? How about let's man up, let's guard hard, and let's create our own five-second violation on them because they don't have a timeout either. But no, they just let them throw the ball in bounds and let the last second tick off. Even if they get it in bounds, quick foul. 0.7 left. They're shooting on the other end.

Maybe they'll be stupid enough to make both free throws, and you'll get a chance to throw it in bounds and heave up a three that'll tie it and force overtime. I hate that about the NBA. I hate that they don't play it out. I hate at the end of quarters with three seconds to go, sometimes three seconds to go. Usually it's less than that a second and a half. And they inbound the ball in the back court and the guy just hands it to the referee rather than dribbling it and taking a three-quarter court shot. Because they don't want to mess up their field goal percentage.

Are you kidding me? You're down one with a second to go and you're not going to try to play defense to force a five-second violation or maybe force a turn? over or get a quick foul. So maybe on the other end, maybe they'll make two. They shouldn't make two on the other end. You know, that shouldn't be their strategy. They should miss the second free throw because a three-pointer is going to beat them. Well, you try to make two to get a three-point lead. Let me just make sure that that's clear. But if you miss the first, you want to miss the second. But if you make both and they're up three, then you've got a chance to inbound the ball. and heap up a three-point or try to tie it.

And who knows? I mean, the clippers with point seven or whatever was left, they might just intentionally miss the free throws anyway, and you won't be able to get anything up. But still, try to win the goddamn game. I know they were in shock. They were clearly in shock. But my God, was that a horrendous loss?

All right. Let's get to the 1991. Washington Redskins. 30 years ago today, 3724 Super Bowl winners over the Buffalo Bills. During the course of this past football season on this Wednesday show, or at least a lot of them, we've gone down memory lane and said 30 years ago today, they beat the Dallas Cowboys or they beat the Cleveland Browns. And we went game by game throughout this season.

And now we're at the Super Bowl against Buffalo in Minneapolis. I was there. I've told you that before, but I was there with my younger brother, and I was there with the woman who I would end up marrying. She was someone I was dating at the time. And we had a great weekend. It was a phenomenal place for a Super Bowl. It really was. I think I've mentioned before that the New York Super Bowl was a great Super Bowl for us as media members. Well, I was not a media member in 1991. I was a working stiff. And I we went to the Super Bowl. We were season tickets, season ticket holders, and we actually were among the lottery winners of season ticket holders to get Super Bowl tickets. Anyway, it was a phenomenal, you know, weekend, long weekend. We got in there, I think, on Thursday night, and we're there through the game and came back on Monday. I do remember this. I don't think the temperature got above 10 degrees the entire week, and it snowed almost every single day, but it was beautiful. So this season, you know, as we've documented, was an 11-0 start.

You know, they shut out three of their first five opponents. They set marks offensively. They were a phenomenal defense during the course of this season. They finished number one in point score, number two in points allowed. They were the number fourth-ranked offense yards, number three-ranked. defense and yards allowed. The amazing statistic from the regular season in 1991 is that the starting quarterback Mark Rippin was sacked just seven times, seven times in 15 and a half games, because they didn't play the second half of the final game. And they ended up as a team

with a plus 43 sack differential. Pretty impressive. 50 sacks defensively just seven allowed. during the course of the year. It was incredible. And they were not a West Coast offense. It wasn't because the ball was coming out quickly. You know, this was a drop-back, throw-it-deep offense. And they protected Ripon beautifully. The most important game of the regular season was at 7-0.

They played the defending champion New York Giants, a team that they had lost six in a row to in the Meadowlands on a Sunday night. They rallied from 13-0 to win that game 17-3. 13. They had a game that they probably should have lost to the Houston Oilers. Warren Moons, Oilers came in as a very good team in week with Washington holding an 8-0 record. And Ian Halfield, their kicker, missed a short one at the end of regulation that would have stopped the winning streak. The winning streak came to an end at 11 and 0 against the Cowboys at home in late November of 1991. Aikman to Harper on a Hail Mary at the end of the half was a big play. Akeman got knocked

out of that game, Burline came in. The Cowboys would go on to their first playoff birth during the Jimmy Johnson era as a wildcard team. They beat the Bears and then lost to the Lions and the divisional round at the Silver Dome. And then that meant the Lions came to RFK for the NFC championship game. By the way, the furthest the Lions have ever been in the Super Bowl era, the closest to a Super Bowl they've ever been, the only time they played in an NFC title game. They got it going again at the end of the year. There are two losses, the three-point loss to the Cowboys, and then playing their starters for only a half,

or some of the starters, not even for a half, in the season finale against the Eagles, they lost the Eagles 24 to 22 in a game that they had a, you know, at one point a nine-point lead in the third quarter, but after resting all the starters, the Eagles came back. So Washington was a 14-and-two regular season team, who then destroyed the Atlanta Falcons in what was called the seat cushion game. The gold seat cushions were handed out at RFK on a miserable day in early January of 1992 in the divisional round game.

The Falcons had upset the Saints the week before in the Wild Card round. It was the two legit to quit MC Hammer of Andrew Holyfield, Dion Sanders, Jerry Glanville Falcons that came in. They had already gotten their ass kicked once by Washington, 56 to 17, during the regular season, a game in which Mark Rippen threw six touchdown passes that is still a franchise record. On the radio show this morning, I had Mark Rippen on, I had Jeff Bostic on, and I had Frank Herzog on. So if you want to listen to those interviews, go to the team 980.com. Washington beat Atlanta 24 to 7, then destroyed the Lions 41 to 10 in the NFC. championship game. It was the second time they had played the Lions that year. They opened up

with the Lions with a 45-0-0-1-1. They combined to beat the Lions twice that year, 86 to 10, and they combined to beat the Falcons, their other playoff opponent that year, 80 to 24 in two wins over the Falcons. But there they were. They were ready to face the Buffalo Bills. 13 and 3 out of the AFC, the number one seed, the best record, a feared team, an explosive team offensively. Their offense ranked number one overall in the NFL. They weren't as good defensively, but they weren't bad defensively. They had Bruce Smith. They had Cornelius Bennett. They had Daryl Talley. They had some players defensively. Marve Levy, the head coach, they had lost the Super Bowl the year before when Scott Norwood pushed that 42-yard field goal wide right in Tampa, losing to the

Giants 20 to 19, but this was a really good team. They had beaten the Chiefs in the divisional round 37 to 14, but interestingly had struggled in the AFC title game against Denver, winning just 10 to 7. And maybe that was kind of a red flag or a harbinger of things to come because this explosive what they called K-gun offense, which was a no huddle offense, which was a fast break offense with Jim Kelly and the MVP of 1991, Thurman Thomas, and Andre Reid, etc., James Lofton, Don Beebe. Denver had really done a number on them, and Buffalo had survived to win the AFC title game.

They were a 12-point favorite, and they won the game 10 to 7 over the Broncos in that AFC title game, managing, by the way, just 213 yards of offense. And in that game, Kelly was really under duress. Anyway, fast forward two weeks later, Super Bowl 26. Washington was a seven-point favorite over Buffalo. That was, if I recall, accurately, surprising to most. A lot of people thought Buffalo was the better team heading into that Super Bowl. You know, this would have been a smell test special.

The public was definitely thinking that the line was way, too high that Washington shouldn't be a seven-point favorite over Buffalo. They should be like a three-point favorite, maybe. Buffalo is really good. Plus, it's, you know, the year after losing the Super Bowl, they'll come back, you know, they're ready to win it now. They had the team. You know, and Washington was dominant, no doubt, during the course of the season. But they didn't have the stars on their team that Buffalo had. Jim Kelly was a star. Thurman Thomas was the NFL MVP. They were stars. You know, Bruce Smith was a star.

You know, they had that fan base like we did. But Washington was a seven-point favorite. Should have known. And the game was interesting in the lead-up to it. Chuck Dickerson, and I'll talk to Jacoby about this, was a coach, a defensive coach for the Buffalo Bill's staff. And he made disparaging remarks about the hogs leading up to that game, which got Washington.

fired up. Jacoby will, you know, shed light on specifically what they did in response to that. Keep in mind that the year that Rippin had was a phenomenal season, but there was still this belief that, you know, is Rippin really the guy? You know, early that year, Rippin had held out before the season started, got a one-year deal. He was playing on a one-year deal, you know, turned out to be a lottery ticket for him. But, you know, he was a guy that had, you know, played well the year before, but split time with Stan Humphreys in 1990. He ended up leading them to a playoff win over Philadelphia at the vet and the wild card round through a bunch of interceptions in the red zone and they lost at San Francisco at Candlestick to end the year previous. And going into that 91 season,

the Giants and the 49ers were the favorites in the NFC. And one of the question marks was quarterback. I mean, you know, no questions anymore about Rippin, but going into the season and even during the season as great as they were in Rippin through the deep ball as well as anybody in the league did back in that era, and certainly during that season. But there was no doubt that it was like, that's Jim Kelly, though, you know, that's Thurman Thomas. And, you know, there was a sense that Rippin had something to prove. And, you know, Rippin told me this morning on the radio show, he got hurt during practice that week. Some of you may remember this. I don't remember it being publicized the way. way he described it. He didn't think he was going to play. He got hurt at the end of a practice late in the week. He said Gibbs practiced them so hard and eventually he had to cut the practices short. And Ripman was worried he wasn't going to play, but they did a lot of therapy and had them ready to go on that Sunday. So with that backdrop in mind, I want to get to the game itself. I watched the game. It's available on YouTube. You know, it's three plus hours. The CBS Broad

of the game. And let me just, I'm going to play some of the plays for you chronologically in the game, but I want to mention this first and foremost. The most impressive thing about Washington in this game to me was Washington's defense. It was smothering. It was dominant. That was the thing that if you go, you know, and you go to, you go to YouTube and you, you know, YouTube, Washington, Buffalo, Redskins, Bill, Super Bowl 26. It's right there. The whole game's there as it was broadcast by CBS. You'll notice they dominated the line of scrimmage.

They beat the hell out of Jim Kelly. Thurman Thomas had nowhere to run. The league MVP ended up getting nothing in that game. The final numbers for Buffalo for the 1991 offensive. MVP of the league. Ten carries 13 yards. They only had rushing yards from their running backs, 40 total yards rushing. They only ended up with 283 total yards, period, and really most of that came at the end

of the game with two meaningless drives to cut a 37 to 10 deficit to 37 to 24. They turned it over five times, almost all of them forced. Jim Kelly looked completely wide-eyed and shocked at how under siege he was from the jump. For me, more than anything else, like if I were doing my Monday morning game take following the game, the number one thing that I would have liked from that game was Washington's defense. It was dominant. they totally smothered and overwhelmed Buffalo's offensive line and Buffalo's playmakers. And it wasn't just up front where it was primarily, but the linebacking corps,

you know, with Andre Collins and Kurt Gouvaea and Wilbur Marshall, and then the secondary with Mayhew and Green and Edwards, you know, etc. They were unbelievable in that game, just utterly dominant in that football game. and that to me was the number one reason they won that game. They won that game because their defense dominated it. Now, offensively, this is where the game started, you know, early on where you're like, wow, they're really going to be able to move the ball. The game was a weird game.

First of all, the opening kickoff came before the CBS Orange Leaves guy, Ernie Bauer probably. I don't know if you did that Super Bowl or not, had okayed for the kickoff. redo the opening kickoff. And then you had a bunch of strange events early in the game. For a game that was dominated by Washington, and they won the game 3724, and they were up 3710 at one point, the score at the end of the first quarter was zero, zero. But Washington, you could tell in watching the game,

was the better team. I'm going to start with this highlight. This was early in the game, Washington's second drive, and you'll see offensively them get into a groove with a couple of plays from Mark Rippen to Art Munk. I wanted to play this particular highlight because I want you to listen to the way that Madden and Summerall talk about

the all-time greatest Art Munk. Third and 14. The bills jump around on defense. Warren was the man in motion and they come with a blitz. Ripman, come on, complete first down redskin. James Williams was the Buffalo defensive. Defender 19 they got.

They needed 14. There you see, Art Monk, this is going to be the third pass that he catches. Here's an amazing guy. I mean, he's big, he's strong, he's quick, he just knows how to play the game. He uses his hands, his feet just catches anything, 12 years in the game, and the guy hasn't slowed up. He just, every time he plays, he just amazes you.

You know, he told us he thought he had slowed up, but nobody else thinks so. You talk to a defensive back that has to cover him, and he'll say he won't. There's a man in motion to rip him again, gets it to Mark, and Monk breaks the tackle, Munk to the end zone, out of bounds inside the five. Knocked out by Kelso. So on that drive, which was Washington's second drive of the game, Art Munk had four catches for 79 yards on the second drive of the game. It would have been more because on third down and two at the Buffalo three-yard line,

ripping through a touchdown pass to Art Monk that got overturned because, yeah, Monk's foot was touching the end line. He didn't get both feet in bounds. So that touchdown was reversed. Washington, you know, there were no fourth down analytics back then. They sent out Chip Lohmiller to kick the. the short 19-yard field goal, and this is what happened. So it's still a scoreless game.

Low Miller now instead of the extra point for the field goal from 19 yards away. And a fumble Rutledge does and Boccholo comes away. Cornelius Bennett hit Rutledge. And the Redskins, after a very impressive drive, get no points. Remember that. Yeah, Mark Rippin does have confidence, though. I think the Buffalo Bills are going to have confidence, too. That ball was a good snap.

It just went right through Rutledge's hands. We're exactly right. It's still nothing, nothing. Jeff Rutledge botches the hold on the short field goal, and even though Washington had driven it down the field, and Monk had had four catches for 79 yards and nearly a fifth catch on the drive, Washington came away with no points,

and the weirdness of the game, by the way, and I failed to mention, that the first play from scrimmage from Buffalo, or for Buffalo, included Kenneth Davis in the backfield because Thurman Thomas couldn't find his helmet. But after that missed field goal, Buffalo takes the field. First play, Kelly throws an interception that Brad Edwards snags, with Charles Mann barreling down on Jim Kelly, and Daryl Green getting a hand on the ball in flight,

intended for Andre Reid, and Brad Edwards ends up with the first of two interceptions on the day. So Washington's back at it. You know, they've got field position. They missed the field goal, but here they were back in position to get points on the board and take the lead in this Super Bowl game. But again, game gets weird. after the turnover by Jim Kelly, Ripin throws an interception at the Buffalo 11-yard line. Balls tipped up into the air and picked off by Kirby Jackson.

So literally Washington had it at the Buffalo 2-yard line came away with no points, and then after a turnover had the ball at the Buffalo 11-yard line and came away with no points. And it was just a very weird start to the game. Well, you get into the second quarter, and Washington now is on the move. They get to a third and 10 at the Buffalo 17, and ripping Mrs. Gary Clark in Lohmiller kicks a field goal, and Washington's on the board with a three-nothing lead. But I'm going to tell you, as you're watching the game, you're like, man, it's so obvious that Washington is the better team. They're dominating the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball, and yet it's only three to nothing.

Well, Washington forced a punt on the next drive, and then they got it going. Rippin to Clark, Rippin to Munk. And then Rippin hits Ernest Biner for the first touchdown of the game. I think the Redskins have done an excellent job of mixture. Not only mixture of run and pass, but mixture of formation. Going from two tight ends, three tight ends, two wide receivers, three wide receivers, right left. They have really moved the ball around in this first half. Second of nine at the canterruptive.

Outside the fire. Touchdown Redskins. So Washington's got a 10-0 lead with about 10-5 to go in the first half. And as I mentioned, Washington's defense, at that point, I don't think Buffalo's offense wanted any part of the field. Washington's defense with a 10-0 lead back on the field, listen to John Madden as he's talking about. Martin Mayhew's coverage right before the second turnover of the game for Jim Kelly and the Buffalo Bills.

Here's Kelly back to throw. And complete, no flag. Intended for Lawson. Mayhew up to knock it down and him down. Yeah, you just get the feeling that Kelly hasn't gotten started. I mean, that one there was just right in. in there. Maybe the most underrated player on the Redskinned defense is Martin Mayhill. He has become a good corner.

Kelly back to throw again, going deep. It's going to be picked off. Darryl Green makes the interception. They're Redskins have them on the run now. They got their offense going. They got their defense going. They got their coverage going. You throw too many passes on Darrell Green, and he is going to come up with some of them. See the pressure right there? That made Kelly throw the ball. He looked like he tried to throw it too hard and it just took off on him.

And that ball just kind of floated in the air. And Darrell Green, the fastest defensive back in football, he can catch up with any floater. So Washington takes over after that Darrell Green interception at their own 45-yard line. Rippin hits Gary Clark over the middle, great run after catch. Ricky Irvins rips off a 14-yard. run and on first and goal at the Buffalo one,

midway through the second quarter, Washington leading 10-0. This was the play that really made it apparent to everybody that Washington was in control. First and goal at the one, Riggs is the impact now. See Rippin, he was on the goal line. He sprinted all the way to the 50 and over to the sideline. There is one happy, pumped up quarterback.

The Redskins have taken this game over. So Washington had a 17 to nothing lead at that point after Gerald Riggs went in essentially untouched for the first of what would be two touchdowns for Riggs on the day. And by the way, both of the touchdowns barely being even touched. They were dominating the line of scrimmage on offense as well. Buffalo punted on the next drive. Then Washington punted. And then Buffalo got something going towards the end of the first half. Jim Kelly, and I'm going to talk to Brad Edwards about this,

towards the end of the half and a 17-0-0 lead, they got the ball the deepest they had it into Washington territory. After, by the way, an average punt by Kelly Goodburn. And Kelly hit McKellar the tight end for a play. Then he got sacked, and then on a third and 18, I'm sorry, before he got sacked, he threw to Don Beebe at the goal line, and Edwards laid the lumber to Beebe, which separated ball from BB.

That would have been a touchdown. But Brad Edwards made an incredible play, which is not just the two interceptions he had. He had other really good plays on the day. And then after a sack, they faced third and 18, and there was a very controversial play in which Brad Edwards gets to Andre Reid on a pass too early. Like, it's pretty obvious that it was defensive pass interference and a flag should have been thrown. It wasn't thrown. Andre Reid lost his mind, slammed his helmet down. It cost him 15 yards and it knocked him out of field goal range.

And so instead of it being potentially 17 to 3 at halftime, it was 17 to nothing at halftime. And then we get to the second half because the first play of the second half is, kind of legendary in the discussion of this game over the years. Richie Pettibone was truly the best defensive coordinator, I think. He and Bud Carson of his era of being a defensive coordinator. It was such a great one-two combination, Gibbs and Pettibone. Richie was one of the best at game planning. He was one of the best at halftime adjustments.

But the story goes that at halftime, Richie Pettibone said to Kurt Gouvaea, he said they're going to run this play on first and 10 after they received the kickoff for the second half. We are going to A-Gap Blitz, Andre Collins, and Jim Kelly's going to have to unload it quickly, and he's going to unload it for his hot, and his hot's going to be the tight end, and this is where you're going to be, and this is where he's going to throw the ball, and he's going to throw it right to you. Be ready to catch it. That's the story.

I'm sure there's some exaggeration over the years. BB is split out wide to the right, Thurman Thomas behind Kelly. This time they take a little more time. They're all over Kelly. It passes intercepted by Kurt Gauvea. Gauvea out of bounds at about the two, and the Redskins are in business again.

Again, it was the pressure as one of those things. The flitzes, I think they, that's what Denver did to them, the Buffalo Bills, haven't put out that fire yet. They got the pressure up the middle. Kelly threw it, didn't even see the interceptor. First and ten from their own 20,

after a touchback on the second half kickoff. Kelly drops back, here comes Andre Collins on a blitz right up the middle. Kelly unloads it over the middle, right to Kurt Guvaya, who returns it to the one-yard line, and Gerald Riggs scores untouched on the next play, and it's 24-0, Washington.

We will talk to Brad Edwards about that play here shortly. Now, the rest of the game is domination for the most part, except for, and for many people who haven't gone back and watched the game, and this is why I did it for you, there was one potential moment in the third quarter where Buffalo had a chance to make it a game. up 24-0. The bills drove the ball down the field and kicked a field goal for their first points of the game. It was 24-3. By the way, they had a fourth and goal at the Washington three-yard line, and they kicked a field goal down 24-0. In this day and age, obviously, they would have gone for it

and then tried to go for the two-point conversion to make it 24-8. But they were probably smart because, A, there was no two-point conversion, but B, they probably wouldn't have scored. Washington was so good defensively that day. But Washington had kind of taken their foot off the pedal a little bit. And they had to punt on their next drive, and then they, Buffalo, it was a terrible punt, and Buffalo ended up with great field position at midfield. And they scored a touchdown on a Thurmond Thomas run.

And it was 24 to 10 with six minutes to go in the third quarter. So, you know, score-wise, all of a sudden it was a game. and if they could get Washington off the field again and get the ball back, who knows? Well, I can tell you in watching the game, after they scored to make it 24 to 10, and Washington was in a third down in four, all right, from their own 27-yard line, the crowd was deafening. I remember the crowd being more Buffalo than Washington, 60, 40 maybe, I don't know, but the Buffalo fans were allowed.

Washington fans were allowed, too. but the Buffalo fans were allowed also. And it was third and four with five minutes to go in the quarter. Big play up 24-10 losing momentum. And this is how they delivered on third and four. Third and four. It's a three-man rush. Mark makes the first down for the Redskins from Rippin.

I'll tell you, Ripon proved that he's a big league quarterback. The momentum was starting to change. The crowd was into the game. and I think the other important thing is you notice who we went to, Gary Clark. I'm not sure people remember that there was a moment in that game, and that was it, when if Buffalo could have gotten a stop, they would have gotten the ball back with momentum down two touchdowns still in the third quarter. But they converted Rippin to Clark for 10 yards, and then Washington went down,

scored a touchdown on a rip-in to Gary Clark 30-yard touchdown throw, 31-10 game over. Washington got two field goals on two drives in the fourth quarter to make it 37 to 10, then completely took their foot off the gas, and Buffalo scored, recovered an on-side kick, by the way, and scored again. It was 37 to 24, and then Washington ran the clock out after Buffalo failed on an on-side kick. the second attempt on an on-sidekick, and Washington won the game, 37 to 24. There are two more pieces of sound I want you to hear.

First of all, let me just mention. Statistically, Washington was dominant. 417 total yards to 283 for Buffalo. Buffalo had five turnovers in the game. Washington had the one early in the game. Washington rushed for 125 yards per carry, 40 carries for 120. 25 yards. So a big day of rushing the football for Washington against Buffalo. They had, by the way, Ricky Irvens was 13 of 72, 13-4-72, Ernest Biner, 14 for 49. Gerald, Gerald Riggs had the two

touchdowns and just five carries. Rippin was 18 of 33 for 292 yards, two touchdowns in the game, throwing one to Biner and one to Gary Clark. The receptions were Clark had seven for 114, Monk seven for 113, four of those coming on the opening drive. Ricky Sanders had a catch for 41 yards, and Biner had three catches for 24 yards and a touchdown. It was a one-sided beatdown in Super Bowl 26. Now, there were two more pieces of sound that I found from this that I wanted to play for you. First of all, there was a point in the third quarter when there was a close-up of Richie Pettibone on the sideline. And because the number one takeaway for me from this game would have been the defense,

listen to John Madden talking about the Washington defense and Richie Pettibone in particular. Frustrating day for the bills and particularly for Jim Kelly. Well, this Washington Redskin defense has done an outstanding job on both ends. rushing Kelly and covering. And this guy right here, Richie Pettibone, is a master. I mean, he is a master at defense. He is a master at mixture. He is a master at playing poker, I would bet.

Because he has played every hand the right way in that. There was a lot of respect around the league for Joe Gibbs and for Richie Pettibone and for that front office, which started with Bobby Betherd and then had Charlie Casterly and for the ownership led by Jack Kent Cook. Speaking of Jack Kent Cook, this was the Lombardi Trophy presentation. On the stage were the commissioner, Paul Tagliabu,

Joe Gibbs, Charlie Casserly, and the owner, Jack Kent Cook. Leslie Visser was there for CBS, and you'll hear Greg Gumbull throw it to Leslie Visser, and this is the way the post-game Lombardy Trouder. Lombardi Trophy presentation sounded and you can watch it on YouTube whenever you want. It was cool to watch. It'll be cool to hear. Here it was.

Let's take you downstairs to the Washington Redskins locker room. And here's Leslie Visser. Leslie. Greg, it truly is hail to the Redskins as they've delivered their third title in 10 years to the nation's capital. It's a jubulous scene in here, high spirits. And I'd like to introduce you to some of the folks who help make this possible. First, general manager, Charlie Casserly, who deserves an A for his.

his plan B acquisition, fabled owner, Mr. Jack Kent Cook, a man undoubtedly headed for the Hall of Fame, Coach Joe Giff, and the commissioner of the NFL Paul Tagliabu, who will present the Vince Lombardi Trophy. Jack, we congratulate you on behalf of the league and you and your outstanding organization for a marvelous victory today and a marvelous season. Joe, this is your third Super Bowl victory for the Redskins

in a decade under your leadership, and that's an achievement that's getting close to the 10th. top of the list. So we congratulate the Redskins, an outstanding season, and a great Super Bowl 26. Thank you very much, Paul. It's a great honor to accept this because I have so much pride in our head coach, its coaching staff, the wonderful band of players that he's assembled, our head office, and most of all, the best bloody fans on the face of the earth Redskin fans. I thank you very, very much, Paul. Congratulations to you, Mr. Cook. Joe, many people had trouble solving the riddle of the no-huddle. How were you able to do it today?

Well, I think our defensive guys did a great job. Richie, Torgi, Peck, and Emmett, and the players had a good plan. We gave them a lot of looks, and we tried to do a lot of things, and I think it helped. You're now the first coach to win three Super Bowl titles with three different quarterback. How would you distinguish each one? Well, I think they were all very different. They're all of themselves. I was very fortunate to have Joe Thaisman when I first came here. Doug William, a class act, big strong guy, and Rip is a young one that's taking us there. I just want to say a thanks to our owner, our general manager Charlie Cassidy, all the work behind the scenes, everybody in the front office. But hey, those three guys have, we've had good quarterbacks. This is your third title in 10 years.

Do you feel fulfilled or might this be enough? I really, right now, I feel very humble, I guess, because I realize I get a lot of crave for a lot of things I really don't do. and just the Lord's blessed me, like I said, with a great situation. And I'm just thankful for that and thankful for him to let me do this. Congratulations to you, Joe. And we'll have more from the Redskins after this word from your local station. And that's the way it ended.

30 years ago today, Washington hoisting their third Lombardi trophy after a 37 to 24 Super Bowl 26 win over the Buffalo Bills. The following year would include, you know, the big contract. battle with Mark Rippin, the holdout in training camp, the slow start to the season, a regular season that was a battle to kind of stay in the mix. They got into the playoffs really through the back door after losing their final game of the season, but needing Minnesota to beat Green Bay and Brett Farr, by the way, to get in as a wildcar team. They went to Minnesota, won a playoff game and then lost their title as defending. champs in San Francisco at Candlestick in January of 1993 in what would be Joe Gibbs's

final game in that first stint as Washington's head coach. It was great looking back at this game and I would urge any of you that remember it or even if you don't. You know, if you've got some time to go back and watch how great this team was and how dominating they were at times defensively in this game. Just a reminder to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. It doesn't cost you a thing. Rate us and review us, please, on Apple and Spotify. Brad Edwards will join us next.

He was the runner-up for the MVP in Super Bowl 26, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. The show today is presented by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.ag or MyBooky.com. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll double your first deposit all the way up to $1,000. They're going to give you free money for the chance. championship games to gamble with this weekend for the Super Bowl two weeks from Sunday. Any of the basketball you want between now and then. But you've got to use my promo code, Kevin D.C.

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Fair point spreads, fair totals, fair money lines, fair pricing. MyBooky.com, mybooky.ag, use my brooky.kie.k.k.k.k. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. All right, as we continue here on the podcast today to talk about 30 years ago today, Super Bowl 26, Washington's last Super Bowl appearance, last Super Bowl win, who would have known that 30 years would go by? and the franchise wouldn't have sniffed another one. But joining me now on the show,

and we've had Brad on the show before is Brad Edwards. Brad, of course, the starting safety for that 91 team. The runner-up MVP of Super Bowl 26 because of his two interceptions. He's the current and has been for, I don't know, six, seven, eight years, something like that, the athletic director, George Mason. Brad joins us now. So, you know, I think you and I had joined the podcast earlier, season. We talked a little bit about the 91 season, but I have to confess, I had not watched at that

point the Super Bowl game before having you on, but I did watch the Super Bowl game over the weekend. I watched the whole three hours. It's available on YouTube. By the way, have you ever watched it? Have you ever gone back and watched the game? Yes, I have not watched it in one sitting, but I have seen all of the plays in parts where I've watched, you know, 10, 12 minutes of the game here and then within a relatively short period of time. I've just never set down from start to finish in one sitting and done that. But yeah, I've seen the whole recap. So there are a couple of things that struck me in watching it. First of all, it was a dominant, dominant defensive performance. Like, I wanted to ask you, it looked like in watching this game that one of the most prolific

offenses of that era, the Buffalo K-gun, no huddle, you know, offense with Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed, et cetera, et cetera. It looked like they were completely flummoxed and frustrated and like they realized they didn't have a shot early in that game. Is that your memory of it? You guys dominated the line of scrimmage. Yeah, absolutely. Other than maybe the first play that, where Thurmond Thomas wasn't in the game and the hole did open up, you know, other than that, and then late in the game, I think clearly when it got, we had a pretty sizable cushion throughout the fourth quarter.

But other than that, it did feel very dominant from our perspective. And I think some, a number of things, as you mentioned, and now just sort of reflecting back, probably played into that. certainly having, there are lots of run-and-shoe concepts in that system. We were able to see, obviously, Detroit in Atlanta, twice a piece, you know, throughout the season. And that allowed us to, one, to work on some blitz pressure packages, some coverage combinations that helped us out a lot. We also had Denver, Denver played them very well. I think maybe that was in the play.

Maybe in the championship game. It was a championship game. It was a championship game. They played them very well. And we felt like they were guessing, certainly in the running game, for one, that they're walking to the line. They're kind of guessing. And so we had a couple things. Our coverage combinations we felt like would be really effective in our ability to communicate

and run an audible package on the run. cuddle and then be able to apply a multiple blitz pressure package built around isolating James gathers in the middle where we could occupy, you know, say we could occupy both guards and then isolate jumpy gathers on the center and do the same thing, occupy the center, occupy the right tackle and get him isolated on the right guard and create. this incredible pressure inside, you know, particularly on third down plays. And so the combination of those things, you know, we were, we just, we ran every, just about every bliss in the playbook that we had, you know, that particular day.

Jumping Gathers, I mean, the long arms and just the length and the tall, I mean, the, he was just, he was such the power, the strength. What an underrated part of, of that team going into the season, because we didn't really know. So I want to talk about your performance. Brad Edwards had two interceptions in the Super Bowl. He was the runner-up MVP to Mark Rippen in Super Bowl 26. And it was a weird start to the game. And I didn't really remember this. But, you know, there was. Yeah, there was the touchdown pass to Art that got overturned. There was a botched hold by Rutledge on a short 19-yard field goal attempt. And it's still nothing, nothing. And it's entering the latter portion of the first quarter.

quarter. And the truth is, it felt like Washington had dominated the game, but the scoreboard said nothing, nothing. And then came the first of what turned out to be five turnovers for Buffalo on the day. Kelly, over the middle, pressured by Charles Mann. I mean, he got walloped by Charles man. And do you remember who got the deflection before the ball landed in your hands? My great good friend, Darrell Green, who we have, he likes to, we had, Daryl is clearly like a, really like a brother to me. I love Daryl Green. You know, we work together here, Mason, obviously, and have had a lifetime relationship and friendship and friendship. And he likes to remind me that he got a finger on that path.

And I like to remind him that it's not lost on me that they were throwing at you originally. So we could both go back at St. Charles Mann. Well, they didn't throw it Daryl a whole hell of a lot. No, nobody did. But he was on a crossing route. I think we were playing. I can remember. I felt like it was maybe an open-side five-man blitz.

I think from the open. I believe in playing man-free is what I feel like I remember on that particular play. but Darrell was, I think, covering somebody coming, the crossing pattern in the middle, maybe Andre Reid. Well, what continued after your interception there in the first quarter is the weirdness of the first quarter because we gave it right back. Rippin had a ball deflected and picked off. And the game, the first quarter ended with no score,

even though it felt like, you know, it was already apparent Washington was the better team. And then, you know, Daryl got an interception. and then there are two plays at the end of the first half I want to ask you about. You've got a great memory for these things. But Bebe, who was really a speedy receiver, towards the end of the first half, he is open for a touchdown. And you came over and you unloaded on him and separated ball from body. That was a huge play in the game.

It was 17-0, and they had a chance to make it 17-7. at the end of the first half. What do you remember about that play? Yeah, we were in a two deep zone, really a soft zone. And Kelly had done a really good job of holding me. I could feel BB coming up the sideline. And Kelly gave me just a little hint at the end that kind of helped me to create a little bit of space over there on, you know, outside the numbers, up the sideline.

And I was a little late getting over there. I mean, it's a tough play for a safety. It's also a tough throw for a quarterback, which we know if you're going to be late on something, that's the area to be laid on. But when I realized, I mean, that ball was coming in like a missile. And I feel like number two, I was probably a little late reading the number two receivers because I think that, I want to say that might have been a slot receiver that tied in who went to the flat or went away.

that pulls the corner down and creates a little bit. So I don't think we got a lot of redirect on DB at the time. So I was a little late getting over there, and I knew at that point the ball's coming in, and I'm just going to have to dislodge the ball, which today, you know, I'd be fine. I'd be kicked out of game for that hit today. Do you think so? It's funny because I watched it over and over again, and I thought it was a fairly clean hit,

even for today. Well, I did too, but I like the sort of tongue-in-cheek, you know, sort of the narrative of the day is, you know, hit with your head kind of thing. But, yeah, I felt like it was a big hit. And the ball got separated, and, you know, that was 17-7 right there before the end of the half, and it wasn't. But then the other play I wanted to ask you about came. It's got to be the Andre Reed.

Yeah, it came two snaps later. all right there's still it's like third and long because kelly had been sacked on the next play and kelly throws down the middle of the field for andre reed and i'll let you take it from there yeah i was sitting here while you were um i was sitting here trying to remember i can't even recall what we were actually playing because we have so much man combo uh and our even our zones or two deep zones would end up playing a little bit like a man combo type of principle to them. But I just remember he ends up kind of in the middle of the field. I think he came from the left side of the formation, I believe.

I have to go back and look. And I just, I mean, I had a great position on the ball, and all I'm trying to do is make sure I really should intercepted the ball. I'm even today, 30 years later, I'm very disappointed that I didn't pick that ball off. But the body positioning was tough because, you know, I can't hit him specifically without being in the position, a really good position to catch the ball, a clear position to catch the ball. So you're trying to angle your body, you know, in the Super Bowl, in front of 100 million people, you know, this is what's going on in your brain athletically.

And, you know, yeah, we had contact, but I had a clear dominant position on the ball. But the contact was early. Yeah. I mean, it's, we'll have to agree. Well, because, you know, it was, what happened, you know, then was really. That's what was really important was what happened after the play. And you can see this very, very clearly. And I can see it in my mind as if it happened yesterday.

when Andre Reed jumps up. And again, that is a play that could have gone either way, for sure. And in today's universe probably would have been flagged. But he gets up, he takes his helmet off. And the official isn't really doing anything at that point. It doesn't seem like he's even reacting. And Wilbur Marshall, and I can hear him. You could hear a lot there because, Kevin, when I say it was loud,

I mean, you could not hear people. 10 feet away from me a good bit of the time on the field. But I can remember him saying, and he's pointing, you can't let him do that. And the official kind of doesn't double take, and he pulls the flag, and that was huge. Yeah, Reed jumped up, read jumped up after, look, I've watched the play in Madden, you know, on the call with Summerall says that was definitely a defensive pass interference. It was missed. You were there just a bit early. I mean, you were a ball hawk.

I mean, you were, you really were. I couldn't get around him to give me the ball, and I was in a clear, you know, I should have been, I should have figured out a way to pay to take that ball off. But he was so incensed. He got up, he ripped his helmet off, he slammed it down on the turf, and you can see, you're right, Wilbur Marshall's going, hey, hey, hey, that should be a flag, and the referee pulled the flag out, and that was a significant flagged because it knocked him out of field goal range.

They would have had. Absolutely. And so instead of a great example of. of why I say all the time that football is as much, if not more, a game of restraint than it is a game of aggression. And it's a place like that, they go when you have to take the human body to the absolute pinnacle of that line between, you know, aggression and restraint. And you really have to exercise restraint. And that's just a great example where really, you know, it just hurts your team. but it helped a huge for us.

I want to ask you about another play. You would have an interception later in the game with the score 3410, which is why you ended up with the two interceptions, you ended up being the runner-up MVP. But the first play of the second half is kind of a legendary play because there have been so many stories told about the Kurt Guvaea interception and how Richie essentially, you know, the stories that various people have told,

and I want you to tell your version of the story, that Richie pretty much predicted exactly what would happen if he ate, you know, if he if he agapped, you know, on a blitz, Andre Collins, he knew exactly where Kelly would throw it and told Kurt Guvea where to be. That's the first play of the second half, 17-0-0. He intercepts it, returns it to the Buffalo two-yard line, and the next play, it's 24-0. What do you remember specifically about the lead up to that play? Yeah, I just remember in the locker room, and I want to say was probably, I mean, you know, Richie was the absolute master defensively as good as anyone I've ever worked with at halftime adjustments and midstream adjustments. and Joe, the offensive staff, could do it as well offensively.

But what I remember is that Larry Pekatello, really, it's like they were drawing it up. They had the, if I remember correctly, part of the time they had the grease board on the floor in the locker room. And it's like kids drawing up a play in the sand. And it was literally that fundamental. And it was, they had this a cany ability. And I've probably said this before and forgive me if I, you know, repeat myself again.

But it was just like this overly simplistic. And I remember thinking like, this is, there's just no way this can work. It's that simple. And it, but there had been this history in the two years I've been there of, of Larry Pekatello and Richie Pettibald doing this. And so they came up with this play. They identified something that, a weakness that is clearly, you know, and obviously this is coming from the box as well with Emmett and Bobby DePaul, who were up in the box.

And so I just remember them drawing it up that way, not thinking it's going to actually open up like the Red Sea. I mean, it's just unbelievable how that played out and how they drew that thing up in the sand. in the locker room. You know, you just, you said something that I've heard many times over the years when you guys who played for Joe and or Richie have talked about them. And you said, like, there was brilliance in their simplicity. You know, you know, having worked with Cooley for so many years, or Doc for so many years, or Rigo for so many years, it was like what made them complex was their simplicity. Like, you know, we all think of like this incredible brain trust, which they were. but you guys explain it as what they were really good is, you know,

essentially making something look more complicated than it really was, right? Right. Absolutely. And they could do that and do that often. And there were, and were, I think the correct word, were lots of complexities in that system, particularly in the coverage adjustments. But they would make that simple. Like when I first got there, you might have a call like 65 Bronco.

exchange, open-eye field, or switch that I think we later added a Minnesota catch cut to on the back end. But what that did was tell every single player what their position group, if you will, what their responsibilities were within that call. And that's not that uncommon, but it's, for that time, I think it was very, you know, it was complex. And it was, those, those calls were much, much longer and much more complicated, but very simple to, to understand. And they were good teachers. I mean, they were really good teachers.

What has it been for you? You know, you are, you're specifically, you know, one of those players. And you mentioned Jumpy Gathers and Fred Stokes and Tim Johnson and Eric Williams, part of that defense that was specific to the Great 91 team, you know. Charles Mann obviously was a part of some of the other teams. Daryl Green was a part of the other teams, Monty Coleman. But this was the team that you were a part of. And I think, you know, we've already talked about it here this morning before you got on.

I think it's the greatest Washington team of all time. I think it's, you know, and many people have agreed. It's among the greatest, if not the greatest Super Bowl winner of all time. But what's been, which, what has been being a part of this team meant to you in your life? It's meant, I mean, it's been life-changing in so many ways. I mean, the fact that we're sitting here having this conversation, the fact that I hear from people throughout the course of my day and life about their memories of that game and that team and what it's just what that meant to their lives

and their allegiance and their affinity for sport and particularly that team. So it's very difficult, obviously, to start. summarize in a very short period of time. But it really was life-changing for me. I've been around some phenomenal coaches throughout my life and some great teams, and that was just the epitome of a truly great team. And I think you're right, even statistically and analytically, in a number of respects, and it's always hard to compare different areas and teams of different seasons and those

sorts of things. But I think, you know, when you do look at, at point scored margin or points allowed or rankings of offense and defense and strength of schedule and all of those sorts of things, it does line up and statistically with what I saw on the field, you know, certainly during my nine years. And then going to camp, my 10th year with Green Bay, who had just come off winning the Super Bowl under Mike Holmgren and then ended up going back that year and losing to Denver. You know, I'm seeing all those teams, the early biking teams that I played on that will playoff teams in 88 and 89, that, you know, I think you were number one defense in

the league both those years. Yeah, you were part of a really good defense there. Right. And so I, but when you, for me, when I put it all together, that team just, they just had it all. They really did. And it was, it was just, and you had just great character. You had a great culture.

at a great locker room. I mean, it just was, you know, lots of people. And you had amazing alignment in the organization, from the ownership to the front office, to the coaching staff, to the players, to the support staff. And when that happens in really any sport organization, I mean, you're going to have success. But they just took it to another level in my mind. You know, Brad Edwards was part of the Plan B free agency of not. 90 and 91.

He ended up with 18 career interceptions over a 10-year career. And of those 18, he had 13 of them as a Washington Redskin. He had four that season. He had six the next year interceptions, including, you know, the next playoff game you played, which was the 92 postseason, and you guys went as a wildcard team. You backdoored your way into the postseason. Ironically, with Minnesota beating Brett Favre and the Packers, which got you a game against Minnesota, your former team.

You had an interception in that game, you know, as well. And, I mean, you had a hell of a career. I mean, it's really, in terms of volume of interceptions for a free safety during a short period of time, that was a hell of a lot. It must have been a lot of fun. Give me one, you know, maybe memory. or thing I haven't asked you about that you know that you like talking about when you think back to those days?

Oh, they're just, wow, there are so many. And they're just, you could just dive into so many Gibbs stories and things that he, that made him great, that made players like Daryl Green great. I just, I'm constantly reminded here because I work with Daryl about just how, if I could take his competitive DNA and dump it into, you know, the 500 student athletes we have here at Mason. I mean, just how, you know, amazingly competitive he was and how exacting, you know, Joe Gibbs was. And I remember early, and I guess there's maybe one memory that really strikes me early about being in Washington where we had a, there was a question on a Friday early in the season on a Friday practice. and Joe's Friday practices were like, I mean, they were game speed.

I mean, they were game speed, and you just were trying not to take somebody to the ground. But it was occasionally somebody would get, somebody would get hit, but I mean, it was, and he wanted, when I say he wanted no question, he wanted that thing to be an absolute precision, exact trial run of what that game should look like from speed to tempo execution across the board. And early on that year, I can't not recall the game, but there was a question on a Friday, and he stopped practice. It was on the defensive side.

I mean, we had a question about somebody went motion, and it was a question about a coverage adjustment or something like that, and he had the staff over there, you know, having a conversation. And my sense is always looking at the dynamics of that meeting. it was why do we have a question at this time? And that's when I went, that guy is different. Yeah. And that's attractive.

And I like that. And that's why he's who he is. And he, in the 92 year, I remember week 13, week 13 or 14, I go in on the scout team, we're running a four-week look to the right. And our offense runs like a stretch, kind of a stretch play with Gerald, rigs. Gives wanted all, you probably heard people say this before, I probably said it before, but he wanted all the defensive players to come by full speed, game speed, wrap up whoever had the ball, and then let them go, and he wanted every player coming by and doing this.

Well, as you're rolling up on the weak side into the flat, you're going to be, if you're running a stretch play to your left, I'm rolling up on the right, you might be one of the last players to get over there, you know, maybe the defensive end on the right end. But so, So I finally get to Gerald Riggs about 40 yards downfield. And it's week 13, 14. I mean, you're beat up, you're tired, you've done this right a million times. And so I kind of felt like the play is pretty much over. So I kind of ran by and turned around the jog back to the huddle.

And I look over and here comes, you know, Joe's walking toward the defensive huddle, which he never did. And that kind of caught my attention. And he walked past the defensive huddle, and he's clearly looking at me. And I'm going, and then it starts to trigger my brain. I'm like, he's going to get on me for running past Gerald Riggs 40 yards downfield and not hitting a 250-pound guy who's twice. You know what I'm – and that's what he did.

He comes by and goes, hey, Brad, I need to remind you, we need to wrap up the running backs in the receivers. This is why we do it. And we need to do this right every time. And he turns around and walks off. I'm like, holy cow, that guy is a machine. Like, he does not miss anything. But it was in a non-threatening way that just was, but you did not want that to happen to you as a player.

And it was brilliant. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it. It's always good to catch up. You can follow Brad on Twitter at Brad Edwards 5. He's the athletic director at George Mason. They're having a pretty interesting basketball. season. That is for sure. So interesting to think about, you know, Brad Edwards and Martin Mayhew and Daryl Green. You know, they're all, you know, still back in town, but Brad's been here forever.

Daryl's obviously been here forever. Martin Mayhew's back. It's like that secondary from that 91 team, all working in town in prominent positions. I appreciate this so much. It really, it was really good to catch up with you. Let's do it again, maybe, you know, sometime before the end, before next football season. Well, it's always a pleasure, and as you know, you're one of my favorite. So, hey, thanks for all you mean. You do and mean to all of us in sport in this, certainly in this area. You're too nice.

Thanks, Brad, so much. Bye. Bye, pal. Thank you. Take care. Bye. All right. When we come back, Joe Jacoby will reminisce with us right after these words from a few of our

sponsors. All right, we continue with our discussion of 30 years ago today. The Super Bowl 26th Super Bowl win over the Buffalo Bills and on that team and the starting tackle in that game. One of the two starting tackles in the game, we'll get to that in a moment, was of course, Joe Jacoby. Joe in that particular game started at a different position than he had started in their very first Super Bowl and then the second Super Bowl loss. And then the third Super Bowl that they won against Denver. we'll get to that in a moment. But first of all, because I have not talked to you in a while.

How are you doing? What are you up to these days? Well, Kevin, it is great to talk to you again. I mean, we used to do this every week for a while there for a few years. But it's good to be back with you. I'm doing great. I mean, I'm not living up in the area, as you know that. I'm still working.

I'm still doing some part-time coaches. We do a big man's camp down here in the Carolina, it's north and south Carolina. So we invite to a combine, and we take the best linemen out of North and South Carolina who come to this, and we work with them over the next five weeks, and we take them through different drills. We go through one-on-one pass blocking and run blocking,

And this is all without equipment. And I'm enjoying that because these kids, I mean, we had a couple of kids once, I'm with the UNC a couple years ago. This past year, the guy who's one of the coaches, his son just signed with the Naval Academy. Oh, awesome. So we're doing positive things with these kids down here and just enjoy it and play with my three grandson. That's awesome.

You know, you mentioning, for many people listening, remember, Jake and I did for several years when Dan Snyder's Red Zebra launched the radio station, which then would eventually merge with 980. I won't get into all of that detail. But Jake and I did the pregame show, post game show, and the Monday morning quarterback show together. So for, I think, three seasons, we were together during football season a lot. And it's still, by the way, I've probably told you this before. But it is still, you and Doc are the two that my boys, because they were very young at the time, that you and Doc are the ones that they remember, you know, like if they came to a pregame show at a restaurant or a postgame show,

if you and I were at a restaurant together or whatever. And when they remember those days, it's like they love, you know, every kid remembers Doc and they always remember you too. because you guys were so kind to them and, you know, you were sort of larger than life figures. But we had a lot of fun during those days. But, all right, I'm calling you because obviously 30 years ago, it's amazing that it's been 30 years. And obviously, you should have been and you should be one of the players that played in that game that are in the Hall of Fame. We've covered that ground many times in the past. And we'll continue to cover it moving forward.

But before we get to the game day, it's. You had been on the previous two Super Bowl winners, the three previous Super Bowl teams. When did you realize that that 91 team was special and was going to be a team that could win the Super Bowl? Well, it was probably early on. I mean, we had a loaded team. And I mean by guys who were just a talented, but nobody really thought they were. were talented. They were keen guys. They were not individual. They were individuals, but they didn't worry

about their staff. And then we went and started. We just had a reunion of the former players that were involved when we had about 30, 35 guys on a soon call. And it was amazing that

guys I looked at and hear the guys who were talking and all that. And the things that we went through. And it was what these guys talk about. And, you know, to this day, those guys are my brothers because of what

we went through and the battles and stuff. Everybody hears all that. But, you know, I look back on that. And, you know, we started out 11 and old. And the preseason, I don't think we want to preseason game.

Right. And Joe was talking about. He goes, I know y'all were good. He goes, I made it tough on you. I didn't put any of the offense in. We ran basic stuff, basic defense, and we got our butt handed to us every preseason game because he made it very vanilla.

He made us physically and mentally tough going through that and hearing all that abuse. You know, you mentioned, and others have mentioned this as well, that, you know, first of all, you know, I think it's interesting that the team was not picked to win the Super Bowl before the season started, even though there's that famous story about Playboy magazine picking the skins to win the whole thing. And Buck got into it with Gibbs in the preseason after you guys lost the final preseason game. But anyway, and the Giants and the 49ers were the favorites to come out of the NFC. The Giants were the defending champs,

and the 49ers had won a couple of Super Bowls in a row before the Giants won the one that they had won the previous year. But you and others have always said we were much more talented than maybe the names. Like people didn't know the names of Jumpy Gathers or Fred Stokes or, you know, Martin Mayhew

or, you know, or whatever. When you think back on that group, like, who stood out for you as just a really talented player that kind of we as fans or the media really didn't know about? Does anybody

kind of stick out in that form, in that kind of a description? Well, I mean, I think you mentioned two off the top of my head that I can think of. And you mentioned one of them. One of them was Jumping gather. I mean, Jumping came and played off from the Saints, and he was a tall, lanky, weighed about 295,300. He was as tall as I was. And he was a great defensive alignment, unheard of, unshored up, unstructured, song hero he just did his job and the other one but

based on the offensive line was a guy who was a top draft for number one draft pick and all that and now he's a doctor down at Baylor University's mark addicts played in USFL came here he was their backup

it was like the seven or eight guy in our rotation of the line that and that shows him the death we even have Russ Grimm he was not a starting guys. So those are the type of individuals that were on that team who have been starters around the league are now backups on our team. So those are just the two names that stand out of my mind right now. Did you guys as teammates of Rips of Mark Rippins, did you believe in him because

there was a lot of, you know, concern fan base, media base. Do they have the right guy quarterback? remember he held out and ended up only signing the one-year deal. He had thrown three picks or four picks in the playoff game the year before at Candlestick to end the season. What did you guys think of your quarterback going into that year? I didn't really have any thoughts about it. I didn't think anybody else. Some may have, but most of the guys on the offensive line were also involved in that year that we won Super Bowl 22.

And that was a musical chair year two between Jay Schrader and Doug Williams. And the starter was not really confirmed until game 16. When he named Doug Williams the starter, up in Minnesota,

we went up winning that. But we went week to week, not knowing who was the guy. So I think we were, we trusted Mark. We knew what we had with Mark. Mark was not, gosh, knows what we see now up there, not know Patrick Mahon and, you know, didn't have those quick legs and was able to run. We knew we had a statue back there. That's, you know, he was fit good in D.C. with all the other monuments because they didn't move either.

Yeah. But, but, you know, Doug Williams, you guys always prefer Doug DeJ in terms of a person and a leader. You know, you've always mentioned that and all the guys that played on that team. You know, Jay was not the leader or the guy that Doug Williams was and the players. And by the way, I think that actually, you know, went for, you know, the fans of the team. I think everybody was, you know, was in on Doug, even though when Joe was going back and forth. You had obviously been the starting left tackle for, you know, you could argue the last true franchise quarterback for this organization, which was Joe T. Did Rip have any of the leadership stuff or the likeability stuff that Doug had or that Joe T had? Did you guys have that sense or was it kind of a bit of a question mark?

No. No, personally not for me. No. Was it perfect? No. We weren't perfect either. But we worked together. I mean, I see all this stuff today flying around people.

with the happy anniversary on the 30th anniversary and all that. And Joe said it best, he goes, you guys put everything aside. He goes, egos, I'm not getting playtime. I'm not doing this. I'm not the better, whatever. And we all came together for each other. And I still remember that to this day. It was, we had meetings.

and we didn't have the coaches in there. It was us. And everybody laid it on the line. They let their feelings we know. And nobody got upset by it. People would talk all that. My gosh, we have fights on the sideline. You see all that stuff now going on.

We hit that in 91. But all that stuff worked itself out because our interior goal, the motive, was to win it all. And we knew that each individual on that team, that's what it was. and they put everything else aside, and we went and won. I mean, Joe was talking about the Gibbs this past week, two days ago we had this. And he goes, I had a call off practice up there in Minnesota during Super Bowl week. Right. He goes, he goes, you guys were killing each other.

He goes, you're all that was so ready. He was saying about John Madden came out the one day. It might have been a Wednesday or Thursday or Friday, one of those three days, to watch practice. And he just, he walked off and he made a comment to one of the PR guys. He goes, this game won't even be close on Sunday after watching one of our practices. So everybody saw what we did. We didn't have the big names.

I mean, you know, what you see now. We had the Art Muck. But Art Munk, you wouldn't know he was a star, Stutt receiver. because Art Muck was like back in the 80s and 90s watching those old commercial. He had Hutton, when he spoke, people listened because he didn't speak very often. Yeah.

Art burning on the field. And we all put it aside. I think that's interesting what you said about Madden because I told the story earlier in the show. I was at the Super Bowl at the Metrodome. I'll net it out because everybody's already heard it. But for you, I was in the lobby of the hotel that I was staying at.

New York radio station WFAN, Mike and the Mad Dog were hosting a show, and Madden was a guest. And typically, you know, commentators wouldn't make predictions, but Madden, I'll never forget it on that Friday before the Super Bowl said, I've been at the practices of both teams, and he said, I got to tell you, Washington's ready. He goes, I think this game's going to be one at the line of scrimmage, and I think Washington is just the better team, and I'd be surprised if they don't win the game. I mean, he saw it. And in watching the game back over the weekend, it's amazing how you guys dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. Now, I want to ask you about your year because I think a lot of people, you know, 30 years in the rearview mirror forget that at that point in your career, you know, Jim Lichet was the starting left tackle. An incredibly talented player. I mean, one of the more gift, would you agree with me? One of the more athletically. gifted left tackles in the history of the game?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, Jim, I mean, what he did with his body and stuff, I mean, physically strong, like you said, and could move. And we had to make a decision. And it was brought to both of us. And Jim, Jim didn't like playing the right side. Jim didn't play on the right side very well. He played on the left. He got used to. that. And at my stage of my career, it didn't

bother me. Because I started out playing right tackle, played guard. And so moving around didn't bother me. And they asked me, and it was left up to my decision if I was going to move or not. And it was better for the team because

it made us a better offensive line and putting the pieces in the right place. And I happened to be in the right place where I was supposed to be at that time at right tackle. Jimmy was better at left. Yeah, even though you were, even though you were the best left tackle of that, you know, the 80s and in that decade. But you, yeah, to your point, you were in your 11th year, probably, I'm guessing 10th or 11th year

and 91. But didn't you start that season playing guard because Ed Simmons was the right tackle or do I have that wrong? No, you have that right, that Ed gets hurt in the first game. Right. And then they moved me instead of bringing one of the backup tackles

that was there, I can't remember who it was, because they wanted the five best linemen to play. Yeah. And I was still considered one of the five best linemen. Right. And I made the move into guard. At that point, I'm going,

you know, if it gets me, you know, two, three, four more years because I'm not playing, we used to call playing left tackle and right tackle. I didn't have to block those guys out there on the belt way. I didn't have to deal with that speed anymore. LT. I just had to deal with the fridge and the bigger guys, which is fine with me because I was one of those bigger guys, too. Do you, by the way, before we get to the season in the game here in a minute, do you love how, you in many ways,

your team, obviously, but you in many ways get linked in the same conversation about Lawrence Taylor. Because you faced him and because the team faced him so often and so many times and he's considered, you know,

let's be honest, in my lifetime, I think he's the greatest football player I've ever watched, not just the greatest defensive player, but the greatest football player. Do you love, do you like that? Do you enjoy that conversation? You know, he has spoken about you in the past. He's talked about, you know, playing against the Redskinned teams in Jacoby. Do you enjoy that when you're linked with him? Well, yeah. At least my name still getting that. I mean, you know, good or bad? You've got to be

honest with yourself. He's a good player. And, you know, I was fortunate enough, I had some fairly good games against him. He's also heads of great games against me. But that's the nature of the game, and that's how the beast works. You've got to... But, you know, they talk about those battles. He talks about it.

I heard from him two weeks ago, and he was saying, you know, somebody called, I guess somebody wants talked to it. Well, it was LT. He goes, you know, he goes, you guys ought to make me an honorary hawk. Because I was in your own back, though, more than the running back was.

But you know, yeah, you're right, too. So you actually communicate with him. Yeah, he calls every now and then. We talk. Oh, that's. He's a great guy. He wants him some tough things like we all do in life. But, I mean, those battles were great.

I mean, we sit there and talk on the phone. He goes, I finally figured out how to play you. I said, well, good. How, what did you do? He goes, I couldn't play you normal. I couldn't play you straight. up. I had to play with a nasty hangover. So I went out all night and just got drunk and came in, and that's how I had my best game against you. I said, well, heck, I wish you would have called me.

I could have hang with you. You know, he has, look, we've been through this so many times over the years about how egregious it is that you're not in the Hall of Fame. But Lawrence Taylor's been one of your biggest advocates over the years for being a Hall of Famer. You know, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, not only Lawrence Taylor, but Bill Parcells as well. And this may be off, but I think Randy White once came to your, you know, sort of advocacy, saying it's a joke that you're not in the Hall of Fame. Right.

They've all been there. So I've been very blessed. Yeah, of course it's disappointing. I mean, we're all human. I get disappointed, but I have no control over that. But I hear all the positive from the guys that I played against who respect me of what I did on the football field, my career and all that. Now, what are they going to do?

They don't like me and all that. That's fine. I still played in for Super Bowl. one of six guys on the Washington Redskins football team that played on six. I'm one of four that started all four Super Bowl games so they could say whatever they want about me. My history, my stats, all speak for themselves, and they know that. So we let the chips fall where they may. Sooner or later, they're going to leave the door open and I'll sneak in.

Yeah, well, I hope so. All right. What game, before we get to the Super Bowl game, what game from that year other than the Super Bowl game is a memorable game for you or a memorable moment? Oh, what game was it? I mean, there was some early games. I think one of them was the Houston game.

Right. We really should have lost that because I think the Philgo kicker missed one. Short one. Yeah, short one. Yeah. And we ended up winning by a field goal. It was about three points or so. And stuff like that.

I mean, I think in the first five weeks, we shut out three opponents. Yeah, you did. Three shutouts. Yeah, first five weeks, three shutouts. Right. It's just, you look back on that. And I remember to this day, Coach Gibbs and all that, you know, you had those five weeks started and all that stuff.

So we were going to have a five week after our seventh game. He goes, we get to the five week, depending on how many games we win, is it will count, we'll get a day off per victory. Well, we were seven and oh when we got to the five week. And he could go back on his words. He was going, what am I going to do now? He goes, I promise him a day off for every victory. He'd give him a week off.

And then the game after the by week was the giant game that year, which you guys had not beaten them in three years. And you went into the Meadowlands and beat him and that was a huge game. All right, let's get to the Super Bowl 30 years ago today. Let's start with what, you know, Chuck Dickerson, the defensive coach for the Bills, had said about the hogs. And you in particular when he said, quote, Jacobi's and Neanderthal, he slobers a lot. and he probably kicks dogs in his neighborhood, closed quote. So tell me what you remember about hearing those quotes from this guy Dickerson and how it came about and how it motivated you guys.

Oh, well, it comes about because of a line coach at that time with Hanniface. Right. And Joe, so I can't remember which was it a Friday meeting or something or Thursday. He said this earlier in the week. and I think Joe brought it up in the meeting. And it's how they turn those tables and motivate you because, you know, how they highlight it. They show on the screen during the meeting and all that. And it not only upset, and I don't know, but really upset the offensive line as much,

I think it was everybody else on the team because of what our bond was as a group. And it was like, all right, you're coming in here and you're talking about our family. Right. You don't do that. And I think it resonated more with the guys who weren't part of the hog, everybody else. And they took it on to themselves of what they were going to do. So that guy just didn't upset the hogs. He upset at 50-some guys because of his combat and stuff like that.

I'm trying to think of who said this. It was either Bostick or Rippin, who I had on earlier this morning on the radio show. And they said towards the end of the game, you ran towards the sideline and said something to Dickerson. Do you remember that? Oh, I can't remember. I mean, it's probably something we can't go to say on. No, you can. It's a podcast.

You can. But I think it was actually now, I think it was Boston. who said, you know, Jake ran over there and went over to Dickerson and just said, you know, something like, how do you effing like us now or something like that? Something like that. So, you know, it did, in the back of all of our minds, I think, the guy's on the line. You know, there is a proud factor, and he called this out. And when you call somebody out, you better be able to back it up.

And they couldn't back it up. and we had our day there, and we dominated on that aspect. So there's something that, you know, I had remembered, but Rippin brought to my attention even more so. I don't think I recall it being this serious, or at least it wasn't reported this way, that in one of the late week practices, they were very physical practices, and that he hurt his ankle. Like he wasn't sure if he was going to play after he injured his ankle at the end of a practice that was really physical. Do you remember those practices leading up to the Super Bowl?

And do you remember Ripon getting hurt specifically? I don't remember ripping getting hurt. All our practices throughout that season and every season I played, they were physical practice. But now this is Super Bowl week. And we're playing here soon. And the emotion, the intensity, the excitement is picking up. I mean, and Joe had to cut these practices short. He goes, we're going to lose somebody because the physicality was just over the top

because of what was at stake. And we all knew that. I think the one incident that happened during the week, and we were, Tuesday, are day off. So we're at a Chip Lill Miller's house because Chip lives from that area, Minnesota. Yeah. So we're out, and he's got the snowmobiles out and stuff, and the rest of his basement, we're playing cards and all that. Well, next thing I know, here comes Chip, or not Chip, but here comes one of our trainers, and he sits down, and kneels down between Russ and I.

He goes, we got a problem. And Russ and I looked at each other. Okay. I said, tell me, tell me it's not Rip or Chip. That's all we wanted to know. And it wasn't. Neither one of them got hurt. It was the back. I can't remember.

It was a backup quarterback. Rinched his knee. He ended up having to get surgery after the Super Bowl off of it. Yeah. Well, the backup quarterback was Rutledge who botched the snap on the first field goal. I wasn't but much. Oh, it was Carrie Cochlin. Oh, Carrie Cochlin.

Got it, got it, got it. So once we heard it was Carrie Cochlin, we go, you know, we felt bad, but it wasn't somebody that was coming to play. Right. What do you, so the game itself, just, what are your memories of the game? I remember it. to me, it was like in the other game. I mean, we had EB, we have Ricky Urban. So, I mean, everything was going back and forth,

and Ripon was doing well. And Ripon that year, a short game in passing wasn't the best, but the long ball. I mean, they hit the long ball consistent all year, and it was no different during that game. But what I truly remember most, was our defense.

I felt sorry for Jim Kelly. They were kicking his ass. I skewed my language, but my gosh, the abuse that guy took. I mean, I think we have five or six sacks. I remember watching Jumping Gather

so we talked about earlier. He takes the guard. I can't remember it was the right side, right guard or left guard, and he walks him back to Jim Kelly. I mean, literally walks him, picks him up. guy's feet are dangling and jump he takes him all the way back and dumps him as Jim Kelly's lap and gets a sack

our defense is just a nasty I mean just nasty yeah I mentioned that earlier that was the most striking thing to me and watching the game over the weekend for the first time in a long time is they the defense absolutely overwhelmed a great offensive football team that didn't have a chance. Didn't have a chance. I mean, Thurman Thomas was the 1999. He won MVP that year.

He forgets his helmet or somebody hit it from him or whatever it was. And he literally, he had 10 carries for 13 yards. And Jim Kelly was sacked five times and hit what seemed like 20 times in the game. Oh, God. It was overwhelming, the defensive dominance. Yeah. And it ain't our job so much easier because, I mean, the turnovers.

I mean, we come out to start the second half. Kirk Cabey intercepts the ball and gets us down to the one. Yeah. One play, we scored another touchdown. I remember we started the fourth quarter. We're up 37 to 10. Yep. And we get the ball, and I hear Jeff, he's going.

I can't remember who the nose tackle was, and he's running. grutton and pushing Jeff all the way back, and he makes some comment to Jeff, and Jeff goes, hey, look at the scoreboard. Yeah, he actually, he told that story. He said that actually, he said, and I'm forgetting who the guy was, but he essentially said, the guy hadn't talked all day, and then eventually he said, what did you say? And he said something like, I forget what it was. Now I'm forgetting.

Then I kicked your butt and Red Jeff goes, look at the score for me. Yeah. All right. I've asked you this before, but you played on all four of Joe's Super Bowl teams. Obviously, the starting left tackle for the first three, the starting right tackle for the fourth. Which of the four teams was the best team? Which of the four? What?

Was the best team. Oh, Kevin, you can't do that. Yes, I can. Yes, I can't. I just did. I know you can't, but that doesn't mean I have to answer it. That's hard to answer, Kevin. I mean, one year from now, I'll be celebrating the 40th anniversary of Super Bowl 17.

Oh, my God, that's right. Got to start programming that one. I was reflecting on that this morning with my wife. I said, can you, this kid who, nobody drafted. And, you know, and Coach Gibbs thought it was a defensive lineman. I'm now celebrating anniversary

to the Super Bowl, not Super Bowl, but Super Bowl that I played in. I mean, I'm a blessed man. I am very fortunate, you know, with the family I have and all that. But anyway, I was reflected back. I go from this year to a lineman that was 32 years on of 11 years.

year knew that he was at more at the tail end of his career a year from now ago and celebrate the 40th from a 23-year-old snot-nose kid who didn't know where he was at winning a Super Bowl in L.A. So, gosh, I mean,

Super Bowl 17, this is a personal preference. It's my favorite. One, because it's the first one. Two, because it happened on my mother's birthday. Three, my mother had passed away the year before. Oh, okay.

So that holds a special memory from me. Sure. Really, and I thought today, somebody said, if we didn't lose Super Bowl 18, that may be considered one of the best Super Bowl winning teams ever. No doubt. If we didn't lose to Super Bowl 18. No doubt.

Two, one point. Two one-point losses during the regular season away from a perfect record. The offensively, you guys were unbelievable. And the turnover margin was incredible. But I think the 91 plus 42. But I think the 91 teams overall, offense, defense, special teams was just a cut above the other teams. By the way, I think to go ahead. Charlie Kathleen said that the other day on the call.

Yeah. And we're still statistically in there. It was still number one, whatever, all that. Yeah. I think we were the 14th team ranked 14th team in the 100-year anniversary. Well, we had a power outage right there with Jake in mid-sentence. My apologies, we ended up being without power for about 30 minutes. fortunately I think we were nearing the end of the conversation with Jacoby anyway.

Jake actually offered to come back on, but he had a meeting he had to get into, but we were near the end anyway, and it was so good to catch up with him here. His stories about the 91 team, he is, and I've mentioned this so many times in the past, for those of us that have been fortunate enough to get to know some of the players of that era and work with those players as I did with Jake, He's just one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. And it is disgraceful that he's not in the Hall of Fame. By the way, there are a couple of things from our conversation with him.

I think sometimes people forget that the hogs were much different, you know, by the time you got to 91. And the hogs, by the way, changed a lot as well. You know, we know about the three different quarterbacks that Gibbs won Super Bowls with, you know, Joe Thysman, Doug Williams. and Mark Ripon. We know about the different running backs, Rigo to start, and then, Rigo and Joe Washington. And then, of course, it was George Rogers, Kelvin Bryant, Timmy Smith in the postseason after the 87 season. The Super Bowl went over Denver. And then in 91, it was Riggs and Biner with Ricky Irvin's becoming a significant part of the rushing attack as

the season went on as well. I think people have this impression that the hogs never changed. But they did. They changed a lot. You know, George Stark, Fred Dean from the early years. You know, guys like R.C. Tealman, you know, obviously Mark May. And when you got to 91, Joe wasn't the starting left tackle. He was the starting right tackle, and he began that season as a guard. Grimm was banged up at the end of his career. Bostick and Jacoby were the only two constants among the hogs.

Now, the hogs, you know, the hogs are the hogs. And there were many different guys that became part of the offensive line. known as the hogs, but the original hogs in terms of the five starting offensive lineman, not counting, you know, the honorary members of the hogs, or maybe the founder of the hogs, you know, Doc Walker. But, you know, that year had Rallo McKenzie and had Mark Schlerath at the guards and had Lechay at left tackle. You know, it was Bostic and Jacoby, who were the only two that ended up starting for the hogs for all four of the Super Bowls, including the Super Bowls, the three Super Bowl wins. Anyway, it was such a good thing to catch up with Joe and hear his voice again.

By the way, when we got cut off, Joe is in the midst of kind of talking about how that 91 team is considered, you know, one of the greatest teams in the history of the league, one of the greatest Super Bowl winners of all time. And that is a perfect segue into my next guest. Aaron Schatz joins us right now. Aaron is the founder of football outsiders. He's the creator of the DVOA metric. All right. This is something that I've used and referred to over the years, the defense-adjusted value over average number, which breaks down every play from every game and compares a team's performance to a league baseline based on situation, you know, down distance, et cetera, to determine sort of an overall value.

And while I'm not, as most of you know, invested heavily into analytics is the only way to come to a conclusion about, you know, a play or a game or a situation or a team or whatever, I have always enjoyed and I've been a subscriber to football outsiders for a couple of years now. And Aaron joins us right now. And Aaron, I don't know that I've ever had you on the show. I don't think I have. But in thinking about this 91 memory show, I thought of you guys, because football outsiders has ranked Washington's 1991 team as the greatest team of all times since for as long as you've been measuring NFL team. So let's start there.

Why? Why the conclusion that the 1991 Washington team is the best ever? In our numbers, they're the best team. I mean, our numbers go back 1983, and Washington is the number one team both for the regular season and if you include the playoffs. And explain to people who are unfamiliar with how you came to this conclusion, why you came to this conclusion? So the way BDOA works simply is we take every play and assign it a success rating based on the down in distance. then that gets compared to a league average baseline that is adjusted for situation and opponent. Special teams get added in as well.

And you put all that together and you get a percentage of generally how efficient a team is above average. So we've done that for every team going back to 1983. And Washington comes out about 60% above average if you include the playoffs. And that's the number one. Number one team. Who's second? The 1985 Chicago Bears are second if you include the playoffs. For regular season only, it's the 2007 New England Patriots.

So for regular season only, the undefeated 16-0 Patriots that ultimately lost to the Giants in the Super Bowl with one of the most explosive offensive teams ever is number two to the 91 Washington team. Now, beyond the analytics and the DVOA numbers in evaluating these teams, you're a football fan. Are you surprised that Washington's 91 team came out where it came out? Well, I think I'm surprised in that the 1985 Chicago Bears have become so legendary. But I think the expectation was that once I did 1985, that Chicago, would come out number one. And they're very close to Washington if you include the playoffs, but Washington

still comes out a little ahead of them. And listen, hey, the Chicago Bears were their own misdakers, right? I mean, one reason why they're legendary is because they built their own legend in a way that the 91 residents didn't really do. So in that way, I think I'm a little bit surprised.

But anybody who knows football knows that that 91 team was fantastic. I think the only reason you not know that is because it wasn't fantastic for a multiple year period of time. The fact is that the best teams for single years are often not the best teams over multiple years. Interesting. I want to come back to that in a moment. So in terms of the overall regular season, let's focus on regular season, the highest ranked DVOA defense of all-time

regular season. 85 bears? The highest ranked defense for the regular season is the 1991 Philadelphia Eagles. Wow, with Reggie White and that whole team, which did not even go to the postseason. Because Randall Cunningham tore his ACL in the first game of the season, and they ranked 26 out of 28 teams on offense, and it could not overhaul. the defense could not overcome how bad their offense was. In fact, you know, Jim McMahon, if I recall,

Jim McMahon ended up starting games for them at whatever age he was, along with Pat Ryan. And the only reason I know that is looking at the 91 skins. Obviously, they played the Eagles twice. The Eagles just were inept offensively. Man, you think about that division in those years. With Washington and the Giants and the Eagles and the Cowboys, boys, and they had some loaded teams in there. What's the number one regular season offense

of all time from a DVOA standpoint? The 2007 Patriots. Is it close? Who's second? The 2010 Patriots. Are they close at all? It is close. Yeah, it is close. What about the other Washington Super Bowl winning teams? And the team that many people, Aaron here, argue about occasionally. Some people say that the 83 Redskins, who went 14 and 2, lost two games in the regular season by one point, had a plus 42 turnover margin, which is unheard of and unprecedented, went through the playoffs and then got smashed in the Super Bowl by the Raiders. What about Washington's other Super Bowl teams and where they rank?

83 ranked 15th in the regular season. 15th all-time regular season. Yeah. But like you said, lost in the Super Bowl. Right. 1987 ranked pretty low. 1987, first of all, the way that I've done in 1987 is to pretend that the strike breaker games never happened.

Got it. So all of my numbers for 1987 are for a 12-game season, where the win-loss records do not necessarily match up with the playoff feeding because of three games that I don't count. So Washington was eighth that year, but did go on to win the Super Bowl. They're one of the lowest Super Bowl champions in my numbers as far as their regular season performance. Is the 83 number the 15th ranked offense?

You had 15th ranked offensive? No, 50 ranked overall. Overall, okay. How many teams in front of them were non-super Bowl winners? How many teams in front of 83 Washington? Let's see here, the 2007 Patriots, the 8749ers, the 2010 Patriots, the 2019 Ravens. the 95-49ers, the 2012 and 2015 Seahawks, 2004 Steelers. A lot of the teams ahead of them actually did not win.

That's interesting. I was wondering, I figured there were some teams not that many in front. So right now, where are you guys in going back? Like how, what year are you back to in doing all of your, you know, your analyses with DVOA on teams from the past? We're back to 83, and like I said, we have 82 and 81 pretty much already to be broken down. So by the end of this off season, we expect to have numbers for 82 and 81, which will give us another Washington Super Bowl team. Exactly, and a Super Bowl loser, too, when you eventually get deep into the 70s.

Do you have – I'm just curious, what do you anticipate from, let's see – just say going back into some of the Steelers teams of the 70s, et cetera? I don't think we can. I don't think we're going to be able to find enough play-by-play to get back into the 70s. Part of the problem is that the farther back you go, the more teams did not keep records of their play-by-play. And the way that we fill those holes is with videotape. And the farther back you go, if you were videotapes there are of the game. that we need.

Sure. I honestly don't know if we're going to be, I'm shocked we made it back to 81. I don't know if we're going to be able to go any farther than 81. And I'm pretty sure there's no way we can go any farther than 78. So forget how far you'd be able to go back. What would your gut tell you if you had the play-by-play of what some of those teams in the 70s would have produced in a conclusion? Oh, I think that they would be fantastic.

I mean, there's no question that those Steelers teams were phenomenal. There were Raiders teams also in that mid-70s, not just the one that actually won the Super Bowl, but other Raiders teams that were fantastic. My guess is that the 1972 Dolphins would shock people by how high they were not. Yep, agreed. Right? Because they played a remarkably easy schedule that year, probably easier, even than the 1999 Rams, which currently have the easiest schedule.

I have a historic, if I can find the workbook, I have a historic where we did estimates of DPOA going all the way back into the 60s. That would be fascinating. I mean, the 72 dolphins, I agree with you. Not only that, they had close games, and they were certainly not, they were a good running team with Kik and Zonka and Mercury Morris. You know, what's interesting when you go back there, especially if you look at just playoff numbers, is, you know, record didn't determine home field advantage. They did it on a rotating basis. The 72 dolphins undefeated played the AFC championship game at Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh, which is crazy. I can tell you, for example, just opening up here in the estimated numbers, like the 73, 74, and 76 Steelers would probably come out. in the top 10 to 15 defenses of all time.

I think some people believe that the 76 Steelers, and they did not win the Super Bowl, Bradshaw was injured for a big part of that year, maybe the greatest defensive team ever assembled if the 85 Bears weren't. Yeah, and again, you know, my argument is for the 1991 Eagle. Sure. But if you look at the 76 Steelers, they had five shutouts and two games where they gave us three points in their final eight games of the season. It's amazing.

The final eight games of the season go 0-00-3-16-3-0-0. I mean, different era, obviously, and you're able to essentially assault receivers before they even get into a pattern. But I remember, that's the era that I first started to remember. There's a big argument that a lot of longtime football people make for the 76 Steelers, and they didn't win the Super Bowl. They lost the AFC title game to the Raiders who went on to club Minnesota in the Super Bowl. Washington's 91 team, dominant during the regular season, shut out three of their first five opponents.

The defense was awesome, ripping great, the whole thing, we know what it was. And they had a tough regular season schedule. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the postseason was a breeze, right? Atlanta, Detroit, before they got to Buffalo, was about as easy. as it could have been back in that era? So 91 Washington has an average schedule for the season by our numbers. But yet, Atlanta was 8th that year.

Detroit was only 15th, despite being 12 and 4. They were a very lucky team that year. And then Buffalo was 4th. Was 4th. The top three teams, that year were Washington, San Francisco, and New Orleans. And New Orleans, I think, lost to Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs, which is why Washington got Atlanta in the divisional round, not New Orleans.

And that would have been probably a Bobby A Bear, you know, New Orleans team in 91. And I specifically recall, you know, as a fan of the team, I'd much rather play Atlanta than New Orleans. More importantly, dome patrol, right? That was the number two defense that year was New Orleans. They had a fantastic defense. Oh, sure, yeah, a very good defense that year. While I have you on this show, let's just real quickly talk about Washington this year.

There was a lot of expectation about what they could be defensively. You know, some traditional statistical numbers like rush defense they didn't turn out that badly. But you guys had them, I think, at 27th defensively, DVOA. I think that's what I cited the other day when I pulled it up. This was not a good defensive football team, in your opinion, right? Right. They did very badly in our numbers on defense.

No question about it. I'm opening it up now, but I think that you were accurate. I think that we were all surprised, given what we thought before this season. The fact that Washington end up higher in offense than defense was shocking. 21st in offense, 27th in defense. There's so much talent here on defense that especially, you know, that's not for them to be 27th in defense. It really does show the fact that defense is so hard to predict and inconsistent compared to offense. But people talked about, you know, we knew after the improvement that Washington had in 2020

that they would regress towards the mean. But regress towards the mean means you get closer to being average. It doesn't mean you suck. Yeah. Tell everybody who the number one DVOA team in the league was this year. Shockingly, it was a very, you know, close year. people talked all year about, you know, any team can win it. It was hard to find teams that were consistent over the whole year.

But the number one team ended up as the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah. So when you see that, you know, when your numbers produce that, how often do you look at him and say, yeah, I just don't agree with it? I mean, you know, I know why they came out number one, and I do agree with it. They were really good this year. a lot of people criticize that they say, you know, such and such a team of beat up on bad teams. But that's generally how we identify Super Bowl champions is their ability to beat up on bad teams.

Games between good teams generally come out close. I mean, occasionally you have something like what Buffalo did to New England in the first round of the playoffs, which is like when one good team insanely destroys another good team. but that's rare. Normally games between good teams end up close, and the way you see who the best teams are is by the way they handle the bad teams on their schedule, and Dallas really handled the bad teams on their schedule.

You know, like I said, though, it was not a year. Dallas was not particularly strong compared to years past, the number one team of years past, especially if you take out that week 18 game where Philadelphia's playing off backup. Exactly. Like Dallas would have still been number one without that game, but it would have been like a really, they would have been number one by a really tiny, any-ditty margin over Buffalo in Tampa Bay. But it's interesting.

I mean, the fact is that our top four teams did not make the final four. This is only the second time that none of our top four teams made the final four. Right, but the Rams were five and San Francisco was six and Kansas City was seven. So you were close. Cincinnati's, you know, was 17th. What's the lowest DVOA team that, for you guys, that has ever made the final four? I'm not sure which is the lowest. I have to look up here, which is the lowest that ever made the final four.

What about the Super Bowl? But the lowest that ever made the Super Bowl, I can tell you that the lowest that ever made the final four was the 1995 Indianapolis Colt. That was the Jim Harbaugh. the quarterback. And the lowest that ever made the Super Bowl was the 2008 Arizona Cardinals. And they almost won it. And the lowest team to win the Super Bowl was the 2007 Giants.

The 2007 Giants, got it. You know, you brought something up. I'm just curious. So, because I remember thinking about this after the last week, how do you differentiate Dallas's final week 18 win over a Philadelphia team sitting everybody versus the week before where they're playing a team that cares about winning? Yeah, I mean, for the full ratings that we do, I include every game and every play. Right.

For the ratings that we put into our playoff odds simulator, I will make a judgment. So, for example, when I simulated the playoff. playoff after the end of the regular season, I took out the last game of the season for Dallas because I felt like that really did count. And I took out the last game of the season for Cincinnati because they sat a bunch of people too. So it's just trying to get, you know, you have to try to approximate to figure out what mattered and what didn't matter. But for the actual ratings, I use every game. I mean, the fact is 91 Redskins would be higher if I adjusted for games where team sat starters because they sat starters for most of their last game of the season and lost to

Philadelphia. Philadelphia by two points. Lost to your number one defense of all time, the 91 Eagles. And still scored 22 points against that defense. They were up at half time with their offensive backup. Yeah, they were up at halftime with their starters and then sat them in the second half. Lastly, for those, you know, and I think we're now in this era, certainly the last five years, you know, maybe longer than that, and you probably argue longer than that. But I think for much of like my audience in recent years, the awareness of football outsiders and pro football focus, et cetera, has become much greater.

And pro football focus, obviously, with a big brand and football outsiders with a big brand, what's the difference between the two? Well, I mean, you know, first of all, I'll be honest, just that there are much larger companies than we are. And they do all that charting and scouting and scouting and the grades of players. We don't really grade players in that way. Exactly. Is that the biggest difference is that you guys don't grade players? Yeah, that and the size of the companies is definitely the biggest difference.

don't you think and it's always been you know and i'm not calling this an expert opinion by any stretch of the imagination but it's something that my my radio partner of many years chris coolly always said that it's really hard to grade players in this particular sport if you're not exactly sure what their responsibilities are on a given play do you agree with that oh i absolutely agree with that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, listen, there is some value to the pro football focus grades, and they've been shown to be consistent from year to year, especially at certain positions. And the positions where their grades are not as consistent from year to year, to year, tend to be the positions where other statistics are also not as consistent from year to

year, like cornerbacks. But I do agree that, especially with offensive linemen, and especially with safety, it can be very difficult to determine what a player's responsibilities were. on a play. That being said, you could see when a guy gets beat. Of course. I mean, you know, if it's a one-on-one block and the blocker gets beat, you know, that you can see. No, I think you nailed it. It's something that we've always talked about. It's like, to me, the hardest, you know, would be, you know, essentially DBs because you just don't know the defenses or the specific responsibilities of coverage that they have. And I think offensive line is a difficult, you know, unless you're really sure that was, you know, outside zone and you understand the rules, et cetera.

And I'm sure there are more plays than not that they're now much more, you know, sort of accurate in assigning a grade to a specific play. But I think it's always been hard. You can follow Aaron on Twitter at F-O- underscore A-Shots. All right, that's A-S-C-H-A-T-Z, or follow football outsiders on Twitter at F-B outsiders. Aaron, thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. No problem, man. All right, that's it for the day.

Really enjoyed my conversations with Brad Edwards and Joe Jacoby and Aaron Schatz and remembering the 1991 team. There's so much more that we could discuss about that specific team, but it would go on and on. And I thought it was interesting that Jake reminded all of us that this time next year, January 31st, right, in 2020. will be the 40-year anniversary of Washington's first Super Bowl victory. And that will, in so many ways, be even more special than this one.

Not only because it was the first, but because of what was, I think, the greatest win in franchise history, which was the championship win over the Cowboys in January of 1983. Any player that played on that team will tell you the Super Bowl was anticlimactic, beating the Cowboys in that NFC title game was truly the special moment of that season. And, of course, the Super Bowl win included the most iconic play in franchise history, fourth and one, Riggins, for the lead in the fourth quarter in Super Bowl 17. So we've got that to look forward to a year from now. All right, that's it for the day again.

Back tomorrow with Tommy. Joe Gibbs was finally smiling. Yeah, he's been more relaxed and enjoyed this Super Bowl more than any time I've seen him. Somebody asked him what he wanted to do and he said he wanted to run a marathon and build a house, win a Super Bowl. What else did he say? I don't know, you wonder how long that he's going to be in this.