The Kevin Sheehan Show - 49ers View On Deebo's Departure

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Kevin and Thom today with more on the Deebo Samuel trade including the view from San Francisco. Seems that the 49ers don't think they'll miss him. The boys got caught up on the RFK "no tailgating" story from last week. Plenty also on the MASN resolution between the Nationals and Orioles. NBA "traveling", Cooper Flagg, and Gary Williams a part of the show as well. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show's presenting sponsor as always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com if you need new windows. Tommy, this comes from Jim.

Jim writes, Kevin, whatever happened to building a team through the draft, Adam Peters has traded away picks in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds this year for, two oft-injured post-prime players with attitude problems. Are we really sure that Dan Snyder is not still in the building? Yeah, I think we're pretty sure about that, Jim, because they just won 12 games and got to the NFC championship game last year. So we know that Dan's not in the building anymore. Fans love invisible players.

That's what I call draft choices now. They're players that don't exist yet, so anything's possible. so fans fall in love with invisible players you know and they think that's the way the right way to build a team they're in love with the process because you know they can evaluate they can have their own scouting reports

on these players and and play GM I'm always amazed at look draft picks are very valuable particularly in the NFL but they are individual invisible players as opposed to proven commodities we have here.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a certain level of truth in that, but not for a team like Washington, and it's insane to say that. But they're not a team that's trying to improve from 7 and 10 to 9 and 8 next year and then maybe 11 wins in 2026. They're here. They're a contender. And so they're going for it. And by the way, these aren't massive swings.

Marshawn Latimore is a healthy swing. I mean, they traded ultimately, you know, a third, fourth, and sixth round pick. Sixth round picks to New Orleans for Latimore. They got Latimore back and the fifth rounder from New Orleans that they sent to San Francisco for Debo Samuel. But this is just a different, this is an opportunity. to think differently. It's what we've talked about since almost before the trade deadline. When you and I started joking about being in New Orleans with the show for the Super Bowl,

but they had a chance to think big in the middle of 2024 because of their record and because of the recognition of how good the quarterback was, and they traded some picks for Latimore, a significant need. And now they're in this offseason. and a fifth rounder for Debo Samuel? Like, you know, Tommy, I want to get your thoughts on it in a second, but I'm still sitting here going, wow, that's it? A fifth rounder for a guy who at times has been one of the more unique weapons in the NFL?

You may not get that player. There's risk that the player is diminished. There's wear and tear on the body because he plays such a physically punishing style. And maybe he is on the decline. But to me, the risk is super low for a pretty significant high upside. You know, so I would have done it. But, yeah, it's just, Jim, it's not a team that's trying to just get better, you know, over time. We're not in a building mode.

We're in a win now mode. That's the mode there is. Yes. Yes. They bypass the process. That's what Shane Daniels did. He took the beltway around the process. It's kind of true.

Look, there's no process in the NFL anyway. I mean, that's just not a thing in the NFL. But they certainly didn't have to go through 7 and 10 to 9 and 8 to 11 and 6 in a playoff win, to then, you know, in a fourth season, having a real good team with a chance to maybe win 12 or 13 games and go to the Super Bowl. they're there. They're not the favorite. They don't have the best roster, but in their conference,

they have the best quarterback. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. And as far as, look, you can't make a judgment on the Latimore trade yet based on what happened last year. You need to take it him, have a full off season, and then start next year, see how he performs. You can't make the judgments on Latimore yet.

Yeah. There was an interest. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, you go. No, we're going to talk about Debo Samuel now. Yeah, I want to hear what you have to say about the trade. Okay, well, first of all, like you said, it's basically, let me see what I got in my pocket here.

I got a quarter, and I've got a dime, and I've got some pennies. Yeah, I can make this trade. It's a fifth round pick. Okay, I don't want to diminish any draft pick because, you know, because you can find good players. But the reality is the value factor, you're giving up very little for, like you said, a player who has been established.

There's two positives about Debo-Samuels that outweigh the uncertainty. One, Adam Peters knows the player probably as well as anybody in the league does. Right. Okay, from his years in San Francisco. B, you're getting a player in a context, contract year who exists to get paid. He went through this before with the 49ers.

He made trade demands a couple years ago until they came through and gave a contract. Okay, this is your typical wide receiver. He wants to get paid. He's a diva about getting, although he's not typical in the way they use him. He's typical in that sense. He wants to get paid. You're getting him in a contract year. as we've seen firsthand from Durant Payne,

contract year players tend to play very well, if possible, because they want to get paid. So that, to me, is the biggest thing going into next season for Debo Samuel is he's going to be very motivated because he wants his last big paycheck. Yeah, I agree with all that. We agree too much these days. on sports. But they're good.

But they're good. You know? Yeah, I mean. Because the team is good. There's not, I mean, you know, they're making a lot of right moves before, you know, I mean, for a week, I mean, you were torn between that heart of being a fan and the reality of what they were doing. And, you know, I didn't have that tear. So there were disagreements from time to time.

You know, like a team that's good as opposed to a team that's playing well. That was our eternal argument. Right. Okay. But with this one, I mean, there's not a lot of – until they screw up, there's a lot of room for disagreement here unless you manufacture stuff. You know, the NFL, we talk about it all the time. You just don't know.

You have no idea, basically, you know, each year. year just changes so wildly. I mean, you know, Washington last year would be the number one example. And there are outcomes that are certainly possible. And not that they're 50-50 necessarily, but they're not, you know, 90-10 against, you know, and there are outcomes that'll make people like Jim, their outcomes that are possible that'll make guys like Jim look really smart in the end. It doesn't mean that in the moment that it wasn't the right thing to do. But Washington could easily, with a much tougher schedule, with, you know, better competition with a really good, you know, maybe a dominant, who knows, a dynastic team in Philadelphia, a resurgent San Francisco,

a healthy Detroit, a Rams team that kept Stafford that upgraded with, you know, other things in the off season, you know, they could end up winning nine or ten games and be, you know, a seven seed, which, I mean, it's not like they entered the playoffs last year as a high-seated team and could be out in the first round, or could go 10 and 7 and miss the playoffs or go 9 and 8 and miss the playoffs. And I'll tell you, the conversation next year will be about some of these things that they're doing if that happens. I'm just throwing it out there because the NFL tricks you every single year, every single week. But right now in the moment, they have a quarterback who is elite on a rookie deal and they have needs. And if they can fill some of those

needs, they can close the gap between themselves and the team that they lost to in the NFC championship game. Not in the first round, not in the first round, not a in the final week of the season to miss the playoffs in the NFC championship game. So I'm all for what they're doing. And I do your first point I think might be the most important because we don't really know anything. Adam Peters knows the player. This has been a staff in a front office that has consistently gone after here in the first year and month of being a part of this organization, players that they know that they have a really good feel for. We saw it last year with guys that Quinn knew, Peters knew, Anthony Lynn knew,

and we're going to see maybe some of the same thing this year as well, and Debo Samuel fits that mold. The only player that doesn't really fit that mold is Marshawn Latimore at this point. Yeah. If Debo Samuel is healthy, he'll be very productive. Okay, because like I said, he's playing for a contract, and he's going to be a tremendous asset and weapon for Jaden Daniels. I mean, just an unbelievable weapon.

So I think it's a steel. Now, let me ask you, does it put the brakes on any effort to trade for Miles Garrett? No, not at all. No, it doesn't put the brakes on them looking for. I don't think it should. A true number two wide receiver. I mean, because he is, he's a jack of all trades. He's not a receiver.

He's not a running back. He's not. He's a weapon. He's a playmaker. That's what they got. And to your point, it's not about him being hurt. If he's hurt, he'll be productive. If he's injured, that is where you get into, uh-oh, they caught him on the decline.

This guy has played hurt and played well hurt over the course of his career, really until last year. I think it's all so fair, and I pointed this out on the podcast yesterday, the team was terrible last year in San Francisco. They had injuries all over the board, up front on offense, everywhere on defense. The team struggled. So his statistical season was a step back as it was for a lot of players on that team. Yeah. I would feel good about the trade if I was a commander's fan. I think they got better without surrendering something significant in the process.

All right. Now I want to provide the opposition response because it comes from Tim Kawakami from, you know, the San Francisco Bay Area. You know, you know, Tim. writer. I know, Tim. Long time sports writer in the Bay Area. So he wrote a story yesterday titled Seven Things We've Learned from the 49ers Debo Samuel discarding.

I'm going to read different parts of this. Because, you know, there's always two sides of the story, Tommy. He writes, it goes so fast. Just a few years ago, Debo Samuel was one of the most feared players in the league and the personification of the best and feistyest things the 49ers believed about themselves. And now Debo is a Washington commander with the 49ers

happily taking a $31.5 million dead cap hit just to get a fifth round pick back in return. They could have just cut Debo with a post-June 1 designation and split up the cap hits over this year and next year. But doing it in a trade feels like a message. The 49ers front-off wanted Debo to know that after his multiple trade requests over the years and the bitter contract negotiations in 2022, he was only worth the 148th pick in April's draft. And they still did it. So before I read more from this, I said about this deal, the one thing that I don't understand is why the 49ers would do a pre-June 1 versus a post-June 1 move on Debo. Because trading him before June 1, unless you were going to get a haul back for him,

was going to cost you $31.5 million on your cap next year. And that didn't make sense to me. And I'm not putting it in the same class as when the Colts basically wanted to do. anything to get Carson Wentz out of the building and totally fleeced Washington. Because Washington wasn't fleeced in this deal. They got the better part of the deal. So it's apples to oranges, but they did get a complete lemon of a player in Carson Wentz, a player that the Colts didn't want, and before that, the Philadelphia Eagles didn't want,

and both teams at great expense moved on quickly from the player. Washington didn't recognize that in the Carson Wentz situation because they were too numb. They just weren't smart enough to understand that this player could be had for a song, and they went ahead and gave the Colts everything they asked for and a little bit more because they struck out on Russell Wilson and then Jimmy Garoppolo and Snyder was like, get a quarterback. And so Ron went out and got Carson Wentz. This one is different because Washington got the better.

part of the deal, but man, it does feel like when you read that, and there's more that I'll read, that the 49ers have no problem moving on from the player. Want me to continue with some of this? No. No, I'm going to read some more of it. Oh, okay. Because I know that, you know, go ahead, continue. All right.

The 49ers had zero problem trading Debo to why. Washington, to Washington General Manager Adam Peters, who was John Lynch's first hire when Lynch was putting together the 49ers front office in 2017. It's always easier to make deals with people you know, but there have been some public indications that the Peters 49ers relationship hasn't been the warmest since he left. A year ago, both Lynch and Shanahan briskly waved off any idea that losing Peters was a blow to their operation. And then he writes, the 49ers won't look good if a Debo Peters team knocks them out in the playoffs or rises to the Super Bowl before they do. The 49ers clearly don't think this will happen. That's from Tim

Kawakami out in the Bay Area. We learned that basically they want a debo from him. They wanted Debo to know that he was only worth a fifth round pick. Boy, that sounds like Snyder. That sounds like Snyder and Bruce Allen. You know, petty, short-sighted thinking. And he reveals that Peters doesn't have, you know, a great relationship with the 49ers front office anymore, even though they just did a deal with one another. Okay.

So that's their son. I think, I think Tim has also pointed out and reported that, Depot was 20 pounds overweight last year. Yes. Talked about that yesterday. Apparently, you know, he had pneumonia and he was injured. He only missed two games, but that at times he was 20 pounds overweight. Now, Debo tweeted out 225. It was his weight.

Hold on. Where is the tweet from him? I saved it. First of all, Debo tweeted out, 49ers know where I stand with them, and it's nothing but love. Love John and Kyle to death. John Lynch, Kyle Shanahan to death. No bad blood, no way, shape, or form.

They know I'm more than appreciative of everything they've done for me as a player. And man, nothing but love, he writes. And then here's the response to the weight. Debo Samuel's response to his weight, he wrote, 225 to be exact. Can't wait till this season starts, fresh start. Yeah. So 225 would have been a,

about a 15-pound, 10 to 15-pound difference from his playing weight, I think. Let me just see what he was listed at. I looked this up yesterday. I think he was listed at 2-14, so 11 pounds overweight. That's what he says. Look, everything that Tim said may be true. But again, he's a contract-year player, and he's a player who's got mercenary blood running through.

Yes. You know, to me, that trumps, because you're not, you're not marrying the guy. You're just going out with him. Okay? This is that there's, you're not going to the altar with them. You're just sitting in a pew for a while with the guy. So I think you're going to get the best he has to offer whatever that is for a year. Definitely.

And this, this is. where, you know, you bring it up that they're just dating here. I don't want to see Washington, you know, propose here. We don't need a contract extension for Debo Samuel. You know, let him play on this one year. You're trying to win it this year. If he plays great in, let's just say the first eight games of the year look like Jaden Daniels' first eight games last year, you can talk about a contract extension during the season, you know, so that he comes back in place for you in 2026 because you'll have the room. You're going to have a lot of space in 2026 more likely than not as well. And so, yeah, like if they were to give him a contract extension before the season starts,

that would be a surprise to me. Make him play for the new contract. This is a fierce competitor who probably wants to prove something in 2025. Yes. That's what I think. To me, that's the biggest factor. I mean, Adam Peters knowing the players nearly as important, but it's a truth that players play better in all sports in contract years. It's in their best interest to do so. Right. Unless they can't, unless they physically can't.

And, you know, there's nothing you can do about that. it costs you a fifth round gamble if that's the case. But the possibilities, the upside with this guy, it's a Cliff Kingsbury offense? Whoa. That's what he did with the Army. Look what he did with the Army Brown, moving him around and using him in different ways. Imagine what he's going to do with Debo.

That's the part that I'm excited about. I can see Debo if he is fit and he is ready to be Debo Samuel again. I mentioned at the very end of the show yesterday, Tommy, and I wanted to come back to this just for a second. I mentioned that there's just a chance that this will hurt Brian Robinson Jr.'s chance of returning. Because you're going to use Debo Samuel in the backfield a bunch. You're going to use Echler in the backfield a bunch.

you still need another running back. I'm not suggesting that you don't need a starting running back. But I think they can get a young running back in second or third round or even on day three. I agree. What's the guy's name? The guy Reid, Jordan Reed, who does the draft, one of the draft guys at ESPN, did a two-round mock draft. He's got Washington taking Caleb Johnson, love him, from Iowa in the second round. at 61 overall. He's a running back.

There are other running backs that I like more, but I like Caleb Johnson a lot. But I could definitely see Washington drafting a quarterback in their, say, top three picks and then not bringing Brian Robinson Jr. back. I think that's a possibility. You know, I like Brian Robinson, Jr. I have a feeling they don't – there's something missing there. There was last year in the offense. I thought he had moments.

He had, he was at disappointment for me, who I thought he was a beast. You know, he was, I don't think he was the same, really, after he got hurt, you know, before the Baltimore game. He didn't play in the Ravens game, right? He did not play in the Ravens game, correct. Yeah. Yeah, I think after that, he was never quite the same the rest of the year. I could be wrong. That's just my instinct.

What I don't know about their run game and their run defense is why. I still don't and can't figure out why they were as bad as they were stopping the run. And running the football, I don't know why they weren't more effective other than with the quarterback running the football. Brian Robinson, Jr. missed three games during the course of the season. Echler missed five games during the regular season. The two of them still ended up combining for 1,100. 363 yards on the ground. But to have Jaden Daniels be your leading rusher in 10 of the 17 regular season games, I think it was,

that's too much. For him to have to rush for 891 yards, a lot of that scramble yardage understood. But still. Yeah, Brian Robinson, Jr. Yeah, go ahead. I know everyone liked Declare, and he produced better, and I thought he would. but you can't count on him. He had two concussions last season the same year.

I mean, I'm not sure he should still be playing football. So he may be one concussion away from calling in a career. That's a short amount of time to have two concussions. So while they want to bring him back, if he on a two-year, he's not signed for next year. Yeah, he's under contract. They signed him to a two-year deal. That's right.

Okay. But there's a bit of uncertainty. with his health. Yeah, the differences for him next year is that he's under contract and he actually really fits a lot of what Cliff Kingsbury wants to do. So he's coming back. Brian Robinson Jr. counts basically $3.4 million on the cap next year. I'm not saying that that's a massive cap savings. I'm just telling you that there's a chance that the Debo Samuel's science, along with one more move makes Brian Robinson Jr. expendable. That's what I'm saying. And I'm not even sure I want that because I like the player too.

I think there's a part of him that should have thrived more when he was healthy and on the field. And I don't know if it's because of him or the offensive line or maybe some decision making. Who knows, by the quarterback in some of that zone read stuff. So back to the original email from Jim, Washington's picks next year. So their draft picks now, they have a first, second, and third. The third is the pick they got from Philly for Jahan Dotson. So that's near the end of the third round. And then they don't have a pick again until the seventh round.

They've got three seventh rounders. So no fourth rounder to New Orleans for Latimore. No fifth rounder. They got it back from New Orleans, sent it to San Francisco. No sixth rounder. That also went to New Orleans as part of the Latimore deal. So they've got three picks in the top 89. That could lead to potentially an attempt to trade back from 29 at the end of the first round to pick up more picks like they did with their second round pick last year. early in the second round when they traded back with Philadelphia, who ended up taking Cooper DeShine with Washington's second round pick. But those are the things that you could look for unless there's a player that they absolutely love, you know, at 29.

Yeah. All right. What else on this? Nothing on this. I just, I don't think it should change the position of them having to go after Miles Gar. and I mean, I still think that that's a big 500-pound elephant right in front of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, this doesn't impact any other big – this was a swing.

This wasn't a huge swing. I mean, when you give up a fifth round pick, that's not a huge swing. Right. Miles Garrett is – if he's going to become available, is – I think Washington should be a part of – of the group that chases him that tries to land him. I read something over the weekend real quickly about Miles Garrett that I thought was really interesting. Somebody suggested, and I can't remember where I read it now, I think it was on ESPN.com somewhere, that Cleveland's talk to teams or teams have talked to Cleveland about Miles Garrett and Deshawn Watson,

taking Deshawn Watson's contract along with Miles Garrett as part of a deal. So theoretically, you wouldn't give up two first rounders, you know, a second rounder and a player for Miles Garrett. You might give up, you know, a first rounder and get Miles Garrett, but you've got to take Deshawn Watson and his contract back. You know, that would be if Cleveland decides to totally start a rebuild. And it would have to be to a team with plenty of salary cap space to absorb Deshaun Watson's remaining, I think it's something like $145 million or something like that of salary cap space. And by the way, whatever he's got left on his salary, I think the base salary moving forward is still, you know, close to $100 million over the final two years or something like that.

But the point is, is you wouldn't bring him back to keep him. You'd immediately cut him. But that would lessen overall. Maybe you don't even have to give up compensation for Miles Garrett. Maybe it's just you take Deshawn Watson and Miles Garrett back from Cleveland so that they can start over. And they're off the books with Deshawn Watson. A few years ago, the Houston Texans traded Brock Osweiler for essentially Cap Space. And the team that acquired him immediately released him.

In fact, I think it may have been Cleveland now that I think about it. But that kind of thing would be interesting to just look at. Like, would you have to give anything up? Would Cleveland maybe have to give you something to take to Sean Watson and Miles Garrett? Like, there could be a real interesting deal out there. But the bottom line is, if Miles Garrett's available, and so far Cleveland's given no indication that he is, Washington should be a part of the group that is, you know, in the mix to land him. Yeah.

And if you know, that's interesting. I think you're going to have to, even if it's a Sean Watson throwing situation, I think you're still going to have to give something up to get Miles Garrett. And Miles Garrett, I think about a week ago, made it clear he's not interested in talking. contract extension with the Browns either. No. He's drawing a line in the sand. He wants to leave.

Yep. Yeah. And where I read this... Along those lines... Go ahead. No, I was going to say where I read this, there was no specifics on what the deal would look like. It was just, if you take Miles Garrett and Deshawn Watson,

the cost of Miles Garrett is lessened significantly. And you've got to be a team that's willing to take on that cap pit and whatever. ever's owed to Deshawn Watson, and you've got to have the space for it. And there are only a few teams that would have that. But anyway, go ahead. Now, I'm not saying this would coincide with that, because I don't think, I'm not sure anyone wants to see Deshaun Watson hang around, if that's the case.

But Washington could need a backup quarterback next year, right? Yeah, I still think Marcus Mariotta is a decent possibility. But he could wind up with a starting job somewhere. I don't think so. I think he could. I don't. I think he could wind up starting somewhere because I don't think there's enough

there's enough high-profile quarterbacks for the seats that are available. This is a very busy quarterback carousel off-season, but it's not, you know, with Matt Stafford now staying in L.A. It's like the teams that need quarterbacks aren't very attractive and the quarterbacks that are out there, looking for a spot aren't very attractive. From that standpoint, you would think that Marcus Mariotta would be back in the mix to be a

starter somewhere, but I don't think he is, Tommy. I think that he's viewed as a backup. He's been viewed as a backup now for a couple of years since the Atlanta. You know, he spent the year in Philly as a backup and now. Right. And he did get an opportunity to play this year, and he played very well when he played this year. But I would be surprised if.

Marcus Mario to get signed to be a starter. Is Sam Darnold unlikely to be franchise tagged ahead of today's 4 p.m. deadline by Minnesota. That, man, you talk about a dude that lost a lot of money in two games. It's really incredible. 35 touchdowns, 12 interceptions, 4,400 yards, basically, in his breakout season as an NFL quarterback, and he's an unrestricted free agent. But in the season finale at Detroit, with the number one seed on the line, he completely soils himself. And then in the playoff game against the Rams, it's one of the worst games I've seen a quarterback play in a long time. In two games,

Sam Darnold flushed, I don't know, 40 plus million a year down the drain. Probably. Yeah. We'll see what happens. I mean, the fact that the Vikings are sold on J.J. McCarthy, they're not going to give him a tag. And here's the other thing. With them not tagging him, it means that they must have a sense that no one would be willing to negotiate with Minnesota, with Sam Darnold on the franchise tag in terms of a trade. You know, giving up a second round pick or a third round pick to sign a. to sign him. They must feel like tagging him and then trading him or having somebody else sign them and not match isn't a possibility. Anyway, all right, we've got other things to get to on the show today. We've got this mass and deal.

You wanted to talk about the tailgating stuff that I didn't really have a chance to talk about that much last week. We'll do that more after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, whether you are a do-it-yourselfer or you're like me, you have somebody do it for you most of the time. Clogged gutters are easy to forget. They're annoying to clean and they can grow into a big problem. There's an easier way to clean your gutters and avoid the costly damage that comes from clogged gutters. The answer is leaf filter. An investment leaf filter is an investment engineered to protect your whole.

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You wanted to talk about the discussion last week that there will be limited, if any, surface parking at the RFK site and it will be mostly garage parking, which would certainly limit the opportunity for the, you know, outdoor open space tailgating experience at RFK? Yes. You know, this is kind of a trend that some new NFL stadiums have been doing. Because in part, that real estate is valuable real estate for development around the stadium. and the NFL and the owners are not making any money off you tailgating. Okay.

They're not making a dime off that. You're already paying for the parking. Okay, so you're eating and drinking and taking money out of their pocket. That's gradually changing as new stadiums get built. And with the RFK site, what makes it attractive, to the people with money is there's a lot of money to be developed. There's a lot, there's a lot of commercial real estate around the stadium that would make it very attractive.

And they're saying, if you want to party with your friends, go to the bars and restaurants. That'll be around the stadium. You know, and that's a totally different atmosphere. But the bigger issue here is, I think it should illustrate for people that the whole RFG, the reason fans want to go back to RFK, the main reason,

and I'll argue this to him blue in the face, is nostalgia. They want a return to what was there, or the ones who have never been there, want to experience what they've heard about. And this should drive home to you that this is not the return of RFK.

this is not that no matter how much you wanted to be back that's never going to happen this is a new stadium with new experiences but if you're pushing for the stadium

in D.C. because you want to return to the old days that's gone and this whole tailgating issue should bring that home to you yeah I'm trying to think about why I

want it back at RFK. I think I feel differently today than maybe I did 10 years ago. Clearly 10 years ago, even maybe five years ago, it was a lot of nostalgia, no doubt. Now I kind of picture what it'll be. I actually love the idea of RFK with a lot of the development around it. I think it could be a really cool revitalizer for the city, for that neighborhood, a great game day destination. By the way, availing Washington, opening up Washington as a destination for so many big sporting events, because it will be, it's going to be a domed stadium. I mean, that alone will make the whole thing feel so much differently. For those of you that want to experience RFK as you've been told, you know,

because you've been told about how great it was, I totally am with you. Like, it's not going to be anything like what the old RFK experience was like. First of all, that stadium was a dump. It was a lovable dump, and we spent so much time there, and the teams were so good that played there. But it was still a dump. I mean, it was, you know, walking through mud to get into the stadium. The stadium itself was hideous looking.

It was, you know, that 1970s, you know, build. I know it was built in the early 60s, but it was the combined baseball football stadium, but really it was, you know, it wasn't a pretty or aesthetically pleasing place. And Tommy, it's not the same team that's going back there either. No, it's not. You're absolutely not. It's not the team you grew up with. No.

It's not the stadium you went to. It's not the team you grew up with. It's not the name of the team. we grew up with. There's a lot that's changed there. But I will say that the tailgating issue for me is not an issue. Like that's just not really an issue. I'd much prefer to be at a bar with a bunch of friends. And I understand that they will, they'll probably gouge you on game day. Get ready for some expensive cocktails for sure. But, you know, when the stadium was at RFK and the games started later in the day or at night.

There were, a lot of times, I didn't, I wasn't a big tailgater. I tailgated occasionally, but usually it was a restaurant or a bar on the way down to the stadium anyway. And that's going back to the, you know, 80s and 90s. There are a lot of people that are upset about this, though. Yeah, they are. Again, but it's not a deal breaker. Nothing you do is going to change.

They're not going to create tailgating. just because fans are upset. There's no money in it. Okay, by the way, I might want to point out, I don't know how big the parking garages are going to be, how tall they're going to be. You know, Nat's Park, they're four stories. They were originally supposed to be eight stories high,

and they cut it down the four. And if you've ever tried to get out of a parking garage after an event, you know how difficult that can be, and they should hand out masks to people. So, you know, because they're going to be breathing the fumes. Oh, my God. The worst. The worst.

The worst. Especially underground garages. Yes. But again, you're not going to check. Tailgating is not going to change that because there's no money in it. But one of the greatest memories of since Josh Harris bought the team was the first home game under the new ownership. And all the tailgating. Remember, going from one tailgate to another tailgate, that was a special.

moment. Well, it was special because we were spending it together. Right. But you know what I mean? People, I mean, that was really a fond memory for so many people. That was the beginning of a four and four and thirteen seasons. But you felt the freedom of Dan Snyder gone. And the the tailgates were maybe the best celebration of that. And there's, there's, there's something lost without tailgaining. But it's not going to, I just say, I think if you want the stadium in D.C. Because you think it's going to be the good old days, this should tell you it's not going to be the good all days.

I haven't been a normal fan my entire life. For me, it's always been about the game and winning. You know, can the Redskins win today and being into the game? but for a lot of people, you take away the tailgating experience, and that's 50% of why they love it, you know, regardless of what happens in the game. It's the three hours before the game and the two hours plus after the game, and it is a social outing as much as it's a,

let's go kick this shit out of the Cowboys outing. It's very much alive and well at Northwest Stadium. If you've ever been to a game and try to navigate the parking lots as you're driving your car, you've got to avoid hitting one barbecue pit after another. You know, all those years doing the pregame show, I would get there at about 915. The show would start at 10 for a 1 o'clock game. And I, you know, I was never even close to the first person at the stadium, not by a long shot. And, you know, I parked essentially in the same spot for many, many years.

And I would walk basically through, you know, a lot and a half to get to, you know, that Bud Light Pavilion where we did the pregame show. and I'd walk through, you know, even at that time in the morning, 20 different tailgates, 25 that were already underway. And they were fun. I mean, I hung out at some of them if I was early enough and could hang out for a while. But I get it. You're 100% right. There's no money in it for the franchise.

And part of what's going to make this stadium desirable to the city, is the development and the revenue generation around it. And you're not generating the revenue that you expect to generate if people are staying near their setups for tailgates rather than going into the various bars and restaurants around the stadium. That scene's going to be fun, though. And you're right. You have a lot of those situations.

That's the Caps and the Wizards situation. But I understand hockey and basketball or not. the same as football. All right, we've got, I want to talk about the Massin deal and get your thoughts on how important that is for the nationals. We'll do that, we'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. You ever sign up for something? Forget about it after the trial period ends and then you're charged month after month after month. I think we've all been there. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription to something, going unused each month. Well, thanks to Rocket Money,

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You have, yes. It's in one piece. Yes. It's not ice station. It's not that bad. No, it's not. But generally, that's my name for it. Because what's the name of your house? I don't have a name for my house. Well, you should pick a name. Why?

Because that reflects a little bit of intimacy with the place you live. I think it sounds kind of pretentious. It sounds kind of elitist to have a name on your house. No, that's the way. People are getting an insight as to who the real elitist on this program is. It's you. Continue. Tell us about Shelley's, the place where you try to go look normal and try to be a normal person.

Yes, because I'm looking forward to getting back to Shelley's backroom. I've missed it the whole time I was in Florida, and it's a great place to have a great cigar, great drink, great food, but it's also a great place to have a private party. Okay, spring is coming, maybe your organization is looking to have some kind of spring event. I would recommend Shelly's Backroom to have great rates for hosting large groups at Shelly's Backroom. They host the D.C. Grays Cigars and Curve Balls event every year, and it's a great event thanks to Shelly's and the atmosphere in Shelly. So if your business or your organization is looking for a place to host maybe a party this spring,

check out Shelly's Backroom. You can find out more at shelley's backroom.com. Shelley's backroom is located at 1331 F Street Northwest in the district. All right, let's get to this Masson story, because I know you've got a lot to say about it. And real quickly, for those that didn't see the story yesterday, Major League Baseball announced that the Nats and the Orioles legal fight forever now over local television rights through Masson, a network owned primarily. by the Orioles is over and that the Nats are now free beginning in 2026 to seek out its own local television deal. I think one of the questions, or really two questions came out of that more so than anything else yesterday, Tommy, after the announcement. And that is, number one, does this mean

that the learners will sell the team now, now that the mass in dispute has been resolved? Two, if they don't sell the team, will they start spending money on the team, on new players, to try to give effort or more effort to winning sooner rather than later? You say what? Well, however fair it was, and it wasn't fair, this was the price for admission for baseball in D.C. This is what it was going to cost to get baseball back in D.C. Peter Angelo's strong-armed Major League Baseball, into a deal that basically initially in the first year gave the next 10% of ownership in the network.

That doesn't mean that the revenue distribution was 10%. But their stake in ownership in the network was 10% and it grew over the years, but there was a cap of basically 33%, I believe, one-third. So they could never own more than one-third of the network that had, had their TV rights. And it certainly held back any possibility of trying to sell the team. Now, baseball has agreed, and the Orioles and that have agreed that come 2026, and that can go their own way and create their own television network opportunities, which a lot of people

think opens the door for Ted Leonis, who's desperately looking for programming for the spring and the summer, well, particularly for the summer, for his monumental sports network. But here's the thing. Something I didn't ask him about when I had him on. I'm an idiot. That's okay. Yeah. Oh, that's okay.

That's okay. No. I needed to ask him that. I had it on the list. I just didn't get to it. My fault. Go ahead. Well, what could get in the way of Ted's desire is major league baseball and Rob

Manfred has this plan. they want to centralize all the local MLB networks, or at least most of them, under the Major League Baseball umbrella, and have MLB basically run the local broadcasts and be in charge of it. Now, the Yankees aren't going to go along with that. The Red Sox, the Dodgers, and the Cubs,

those that are the big revenue who have their own networks that create a lot of revenue, they're not going to go along with that. But for this to be successful, Manfred needs as many teams as he can get in this umbrella that he wants to create. Why are they trying to do that? Because the regional sports network is kind of dying?

Yes, yes. I mean, you can't count on the regional sports networks anymore. MLB thinks they can do a better job, making the transition to streaming, have more control over it. But they need all the markets they can. to make it as strong as it is. And the nationals are going to be under a lot of pressure from Manfred to be part of that umbrella

that may be baseball wants to create. So if MLB winds up getting the rights to Nationals' local broadcast, there's no reason for Ted to own the team. I mean, he's not buying the team because he's a baseball fan. He's not buying the team because he cares about winning. this is like Gilliken's Island for Ted. It's programming. Right.

And it's not a great thing if you're looking for a new owner to have a new owner whose top priority is, you know, I can put it on my network. So I don't, I'm not sure it paves the way for Ted, and I think the conflict with MLB will be interesting to watch. As far as the sale of the team, again, And the learners, like I've said before, try buying a box of paper clips from the learners. The learners have been the number one obstacle for selling the team, not massive.

And it will continue to be that way until they either get a price they want or they just get tired of the family decides that, yes, we're going to sell a team for the best value we can get. Yeah, there are a couple of things that are interesting about this story to me. know, the revenues that the Orioles essentially chose to give the Nats over the years that ended up in the courts, and eventually they had, you know, independent, you know, people decide what the right number was for the Nats that the Orioles had to pay for their, for their television rights. And then the equity piece in Massen, which was 90-10 to start, but the Nats got like 1% each year up until the point in which they got, you know, I think close to a third.

of it. The truth is there's probably not a lot of value in the equity of Masson at this point with the issues that RSN's regional sports networks have had. But I'm wondering, you know, I'm sure there is value in Ted buying the team. But there's a chance he could get those rights and fill that programming at Monumental without owning the team. But yeah, that part of it, too. I mean, how much does Ted gain? by paying $2.3 billion for the Nats for what he's trying to accomplish. Does he really need to own the team for it to happen? I don't know.

Here's the thing. Ted eventually, I believe, wants to take monumental sports public. Yeah, right. And I think baseball, a major league baseball team as part of that portfolio makes it a more attractive public. public offering to go with the capitals, the wizards, and everything else. I think that's also one of the attractions, too, and the learners

have a relationship with Ted, their business partners, Mark Learner's a minority investor in monumental sports. So the learners may ignore MLB and make the best deal they can with Ted, because they have a relationship with him.

But I think Ted wants to take this public, and I think a baseball team enhances that the value. I think it's kind of interesting what you've mentioned, just the idea that, you know, Major League Baseball is going to fill the role of regional sports networks in managing the broadcasts of, you know, many teams potentially. I also don't think we've talked about this.

Maybe we had, maybe we did when the story came out. But what was your reaction to ESPN opting out of its television deal with Baseball? I mean, they wanted a significant cut to continue. Well, it's interesting because ESPN, according to different reports, like from front office sports and others, ESPN is negotiating or talking to baseball about the possibility of taking on some of the local broadcasts that are currently owned by, I forget the name in a company, Main Street, something or another, that currently operate them. So I think baseball could be involved somehow with ESPN.

I'm just not sure how that happens. Remember, baseball, what's the first sport to recognize the value of the Internet? They created the, I forget the name of the company, but it was called BAM. and it was a huge monetary boom for baseball before football, hockey, or anything else. You know, it's funny because the owners agreed to profit to share the revenue from any internet, you know, revenue they got thinking that it was going to be pennies, and it turned out to be huge. And I had a big impact on baseball to the point where the company that made me baseball created

to run the internet for all 26 teams, wound up running the programming for the National Hockey League and actually sometimes the Super Bowl. They would do the production of those networks. So MLB had some foresight in this area before. I think that's where the National is going to wind up under Rob Manfred's new MLB network for local teams. All right.

finish up with this. Steve Kerr, the head coach of the Golden State Warriors, wants the NBA to call more traveling violations. I mean, he's a fan now. How long have fans been screaming? Can you just call a travel when LeBron catches it on the wing, takes four steps to get set, and then takes three steps before he dribbles?

He said, quote, I don't understand why we're not teaching our officials to call traveling in this league. They do a great job and work their tails off and communicate well. But I see five or six travels a game that aren't called. And he said, you know, it's a problem when there are like 100 fans in the stands and every coach on the sideline when I'm watching film and everybody's signaling, you know, rolling their hands together a traveling call. Everybody sees it, but the league's not calling it. this has been going on for years, for years.

The thing that has developed in both the pro and college game in recent years, and I would say the last five, six years, maybe seven, eight, because the guy that just comes to mind for me more than any other player that I'm about to describe is Bradley Beale. Bradley Beale would catch the ball on, say, a flare screen on the wing, and he'd gather himself by taking like three steps without dribbling. And then he'd establish his pivot foot. Well, that's a travel. You can't do that.

And now you see it everywhere. You see it in college all the time. Like a guy will catch a pass on the wing as he's moving, and he shuffles his feet to establish a pivot foot. That's traveling. But they allow that. They allow somebody to gather themselves and get set. because I guess they deem it to be not an advantage gained.

Sometimes it isn't an advantage gained, but sometimes it is, especially if that player is closely guarded. I hate that, and I've hated that over the years. One other quick basketball note, just for those that are hoping that the Wizards end up with the number one pick and have a chance to draft Duke freshman Cooper flag. last night, 28 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, and 2 steals in Duke's 33-point win over Wake Forest. First of all, right now, I think Duke's the best team in the country.

I'm not even sure it's that close. I know Auburn's number one, and Duke's not playing anybody. The ACC's horrible. I understand that. But Cooper Flag is going to lead his team in every major statistic. category as a freshman. Scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. He leads his team in all five of those categories. Yeah. I have another basketball thing for you. Okay. We go. Happy birthday to Gary Williams. Today's his 80th birthday. Yes, it is. The Hall Famer. It is. And the great Terps coach.

Happy birthday, Gary. Happy birthday, Gary. 80 years old. He does not look at day over 50. It's amazing how good he looks. Saw him the other night at the Maryland-Michigan State game. One of one when it comes to Maryland coaches right there with Coach Thompson after Joe Gibbs on the list of the greatest coaches in the history of this town. And obviously a Hall of Fame basketball coach, just an absolute legend. Hope you have a great birthday today, Gary. All right, Tommy.

That's it. I know you got to run. I got a run. I will talk to you on Thursday. Thanks. All right, boss.