The Kevin Sheehan Show - A Legitimate Commanders' Top 100 Omission

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Kevin and Thom today with plenty of Commanders and NFL talk to start the show including a legitimate Washington player omission from CBS Sports' NFL Top 100 Players list. Thom discussed the passing of Willie Mays and weighed in on the conversation of who replaces Mays as the greatest all-time "living" player. The guys also talked RFK site bill, the Nats, and more. Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Sheehan for a first deposit match up to $100! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show's presenting sponsor is Window Nation.

Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Windonation.com. If you've got a need for new windows. Tommy's going to talk about Willie Mays in the next segment. He wrote a really good column in the Washington Times about the great Willie Mays. I'm going to open the show with this from, Jason. Jason emailed me. Jason emails all the time. He said, Kevin, I'm okay with your Pete Prisco list conversation when it comes to Ayuk and Terry. But how didn't Sam Cosme make the list? So Tommy, Pete Priscoe from CBS Sports is one of the, you know, half dozen guys. And the NFL network does this, too,

where they actually have the players vote on the top 100 players heading in. to the upcoming season. Prisco does it every year. His list came out yesterday. By the way, Washington was one of only two teams in the entire NFL without one player in the top 100. The Colts were the other team. Washington and Indianapolis without a top 100 player. Terry wasn't on the list.

John Allen wasn't on the list. And Jason, you're right. I should have mentioned this. Sam Cosme is not on the list. And it's worse than that. There are four guards on the list and another six in Prisco's honorable mention. Now, I don't want to get worked up over this. This is a subjective thing.

And I'm not the biggest Pete Prisco fan to begin with, but it's just a conversation that you can have in June. And the reason I brought it up yesterday, Tommy, is that there are a lot of people that just think that the team would be nuts to trade for Brandon Ayyuk. They don't think he's that good, or they think Terry's just as good or better, or they don't want to spend the money, or they don't want to spend the draft choices. And Prisco had Brandon Ayyuk as the ninth best receiver in the NFL, the 45th best player in the NFL, which is kind of where I would have him, somewhere right around the top 10. And Terry was 17 overall, listed in, I'm sorry, 19 overall, listed in honorable mention. He was the second receiver on the honorable mention list,

so essentially that made him the 19th best receiver in the league for, again, whatever it's worth, according to Pete Prisco. But there are 10 starting NFL guards on his list, four in the top 100, six honorable mention. And Sam Cosmi, I promise you, is one of the best 10 guards in the NFL. He certainly is based on the advantage. Advanced numbers. PFF loves Cosmi. Had him is the third best guard in the NFL last year. Had him as the best guard over the last seven to eight weeks of the season last year. He was the highest graded

Washington player last year. Yeah, Jason, you're right. Cosmi should have been on the list. Several of you tweeted, and I saw that you were like, what about Frankie Louvo? What about Bobby Wagner? I don't think they're top 100 players yet. Also, John reminded me that Trent Williams is number three on the list. He's the third best player in the NFL, and that Montez Sweat is on the list as well, which he is. But anyway, list discussion. I would have thought, I mean, look, I know you have a job to do, and I know this is, You know, the NBA season is over.

The NHL season isn't over here, apparently. No, it's not. No, it's not. That's interesting. But, and this makes perfect fodder. But, you know, if you're a fan, I mean, you should be past this. This is the winning the off-season argument. You know, what do you care about lists?

I mean, at this point, you know, I mean, lists are relevant. This would speak to your, you know, don't tell me, show me. Yeah, I actually really like lists. I love reading lists, and I like seeing what league opinion is. I know, but in terms of getting worked up. Oh, I'm not. In terms of flights, you know, I mean, this is, this is, you know, it's not a slight getting worked up over. Do I sound worked up?

Well, we're discussing it. You think it's an outrage that Sam Cosby's not on the list. Well, I consider it to be ill-informed if Sam Cosme isn't one of your ten best guards. If you're putting together a list of the top 100 with another 30 players mentioned, his honorable mention, and there are ten guards listed, and he's not one of them. But let me just tell you, the reason that I even brought it up was to just say to those people who are pushing back on, I would never do Brandon Ayyuk. Terry's much better than Brandon Ayyuk. You don't give up that kind of money to that kind of receiver. He's not, you know, he's not a top 10 receiver. I think he is. And that list had him as the ninth best receiver in the league and had Terry as the 19th best receiver in the league. And I would imagine that lists that come out from other NFL, you know, analysts, journalists, et cetera, over the summer, including the players list, will have Brandon Ayyuk much higher than Terry McClorn. McClorn, by the way, was 68 on Prisco's list last year.

So he made the list last year. At least that's what somebody tweeted me. Maybe part of this may be guilt by association. Any player connected with the Ron Rivera era just doesn't get any respect at all at this point. You know, that may be part of it. Well, here's what I don't understand. This team would be better, arguably significantly better, with IUC on the team. It's one of their wide receivers.

I think so. I think so, too. I actually, I think that's 100% true. I forget who it was who sent me the tweet that I referenced on yesterday's show or last night show. Again, sorry for getting it out so late, but I didn't get to the show until late yesterday. Because I had the day off for radio, and I didn't come in here until much later. But this, I forget who it was who said, every single year, the league is adding, you know, four to five new wide receiver stars via the draft,

why wouldn't you just wait and draft the next great guy next year? You've got plenty of draft capital, et cetera. It's a good point because you're getting a guy on the rookie contract. The problem is that there have been plenty of receivers in the draft, you know, who have failed as well. I mean, it's not like it's a slam dunk that you're going to get, you know. You're going to get a guy. That's a big.

leap of face. Oh, I'll just go shopping and there'll be one available for me. Yeah, I mean, all you got to do is go back to the 2020 draft. Was that the Justin Jefferson draft with Jalen Rager? 2020. Jalen Rager's picked a 21 overall and Justin Jefferson's picked the pick after him. By the way, Brandon Iyuk, it was in the 2020 draft and was a first round pick in that draft as well. But I mean, you know, not Henry Ruggs who was the first receiver in that draft. We've had in recent years, Cadarius Tony was a first round pick. You know, not every wide receiver hits.

Not even close. I mean, Jehan Dodson was a first round pick. You know, who knows? I have faith in Jehan Dodson. I think he's got a chance to be a really good player. But receivers, the league misses on quite often as well. So Ayyuk would be an absolute known commodity entering his prime years. and you know you'd have to pay them you'd have to pay them you know I would up front the money

with the cap being where it is right now for the team they've got plenty of cap space you've got you've got the assets you've got the money it's not going to hurt you it's not a stretch right you know just as you're saying you know you want to hang on to these assets for what you know and plus your quarterback likes this guy yeah you should be doing everything you can, and I'm not excluding the offensive line from this conversation. Just because I'm focused on Brandon Ayuk the last couple of days and others are as well, it doesn't mean that I don't think that the offensive line needs to be upgraded as well. I mean, this is a process.

I do think the offensive line will end up looking better than it did last year because of coordinator and quarterback, but that's not a lot. It's hard to look worse. It'd be hard for... last year, even though visually was not the same as statistically, apparently. That's true. Statistically, it was right in the middle of the pack, actually 14th in past block win rate. But again, I think that that is because offensive line play in general, Tommy, around the league,

just isn't that great. You know, there are more teams that have offensive line issues than teams that don't, a lot more. Anyway, that was the reason I brought it up, was just to kind of give at least one subjective list at this point. It's the one that's out there that is, I think, going to be the league opinion, which is Brandon Ayuk is thought to be a better receiver than Terry McCorn by even a long shot. But the thing is, is that if Terry were in San Francisco the last four years, it's possible that he would be the guy that everybody thought was better. You know, he's had no quarterback, he's had no coach, he's had no supporting cast, and Brandon Ayuk has had all of those things.

With that said, I still think Ayuk's quite a talent. Anyway, there you go. Sam Cosmi should be on somebody's top 100 list. Yes, I agree, Jason. Okay, okay. Well, you know why? If things go right, look, I think this team will be viewed differently. It's going to take some time.

They're going to have to put some play on the field. And I'm not saying they're going to be good this year. But I think this team will be viewed differently moving forward because if nothing else, I think the idea that this is a new era will eventually sink in throughout the rest of the league, that Dan Snyder is not here, you know, and that this is a quality coaching staff. And I think, you know, I think part of the problem is, you know, these players are, you know, guilt by association.

You know, they were with this is a bad organization, so they don't get the respect and the attention that they may be deserved. And I don't think, no matter how, I just don't think, no matter how good their record is this year, they will be viewed as a bad organization. Yeah. Look, there was never a guarantee that ownership change would mean Super Bowls or, you know, Super Bowl contention. What we hope it means is a better overall football product, but the behavior that went with the terrible football product is completely changed.

Look, if you told me they're going to be poorly behaved, but you're going to contend for Super Bowls, I'll take that. But that's the one thing that I think you can be super confident in is that you don't have, at least by, I don't know, it's coming up on a year that we've had Josh Harrison, this ownership group in place. It certainly doesn't seem like they are bad people. and we had a person who was not a good person running the organization for 25 years. I don't even want to talk about Snyder. I get it. You're right. It's going to take some time for people who have covered this league for a long time

to even think about Washington when it comes to a list or grades or a conversation about something positive. They're going to have to do some really good things on the field. I have heard people talk about how they think Washington could be much better than what, you know, the odds makers believe they're going to be. The underover on their wins is six and a half. By the way, Nate Davis, who was on the radio show this morning with me, he graded Washington's offseason in A. Part of the thing that I did on last night's show, Tommy, was go through Seth Walder's offseason grades, which he gave Washington a C-plus. So it's all subjective people, but the list thing is, you know, I don't know, it's sort of a right of early to midsummer, isn't it? Yeah, but we don't do it.

Yeah, we do. We've done it every single year. What? What else are we going to do? Talk about East Strausburg High on every show? Yes. Come on. Yes, let's do that.

No, but we don't make up our list. We talk about other people's list. Yes. But we don't sit there and make up our list. a list. You don't say to me, Tommy, pick the top 25 left guards in the NFL, probably because you think I'm not capable of doing it. You may be right. Well, I wouldn't be capable of doing that. No, we do list. We'll come up with our top five. You know what we've done that with, I think, more than anything else over the years. NBA, our top 10 NBA players list. Yes. We have done that several

times over the years. Yeah, we have. And I think we've done it with quarterbacks, too. I bet we've done it with running backs. Who's your greatest running back after Jim Brown? After Jim Brown. Okay, there you go. Walter Payton. Yeah. I think that's, I would have guessed that that was yours. I think, what is my second greatest running back? I mean, I always have Earl Campbell much higher than most of the lists. But I think it's Walter Payton, too. I'm looking to see if I've kept any of the... Because I have my basketball list.

Yeah, it's Walter Payton. It's Walter Payton. And I've got Earl Campbell much higher than most people. And I have Barry Sanders lower than, I think, most people. Earl Campbell's one of my all-time favorite football players. Just loved watching Earl Campbell run the football. Yeah, he was great. he was great to watch.

I was a great era of running backs when Earl Campbell played. God, it was. And, you know, it's kind of remarkable. We've talked about this before, that Jim Brown, now, you know, I usually say that it wasn't even an argument that Jim Brown's the greatest player in the history of the league. Now you could make the case that Tom Brady may have that title. But still, Jim Brown hasn't played. in 60 years.

Yeah, it's crazy. And we still consider him the greatest running back in the history of the league and maybe the greatest player in the history of the league. How impressive do you have to be to have that kind of legacy at a time when people, you know, forget what happened two years ago? It's really, it's an amazing thing. There's no doubt. Jim Brown, although Jerry Rice is a guy and Lawrence Taylor.

For me, in my lifetime, Lawrence Taylor is the greatest player. Offense defense doesn't matter. In my lifetime, I didn't see Jim Brown play. But I think for people that are older, it's like, no, no, no. The conversation starts with Jim Brown, and then we can go to who's number two. and I feel like it's debatable in other sports. Look, you're going to talk about Willie Mays, and I talked a little bit about some of the lists that I read.

Man, it's a list kind of a show today. But I did read a lot of greatest MLB players of all-time lists yesterday, and I actually read a lot about Willie Mays. Because I knew a little bit about him, Tommy. I didn't know a lot about Willie Mays. But Jim Brown's usually at the top of the list. When they did the thing on NFL network a few years ago, where Belichick was part of it with Collinsworth. And I think that Jim Brown was number one on that list.

I'm trying to look it up to see. I'm sure. Look, he worshipped Jim Brown. Belichick did. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, I'm sure Jim Brown was number one on it. Speaking of Belichick and list, have you seen the first photos? of him with his 24-year-old babe?

Good God. 24. Oh, come on. If you're Bill Belichick, why not? Right? I guess. I mean, isn't there that rule you divide by two and add seven? Do you know that rule to divide by two add seven?

No, I don't know that rule. You divide your age by two and then you add seven years, and that's the youngest you should go. That's still considered appropriate. How old's Belichick? Is he 72? He's got to be 70-something. I think he's 72. He's 72.

So 36, add 7. 43, that's 19 years older than what he's decided to go after. He's never played by the rules. Back to Belichick's list. For whatever reason, they don't list them in order, but they did it. when they did the list. 2010 there was a list that had Jerry Rice done by the NFL network, one in Jim Brown, two. And here's why, you know what?

Remember when they kept voting Michael Jordan at the MVP, and then one year they gave it to Charles Barkley? It's because they didn't want to keep giving it to Jordan. Very Rice is that kind of guy. He's the guy, say, Jesus, it's old and tired if we keep naming Jim Brown. number one player. Is that what it is? Jerry Rice. That's what that is. It's the Steve Nash thing. Of being in the conversation. But come on. I mean, Jesus, Jim Brown. I mean, people thought Jim Brown was on the cover of Sports Illustrated when he was 50 years old wearing a Raiders' jersey, and people

saying that he's going to come, people were thinking he's going to come back to play. You know, it's that position running back and wide receiver that are the only two positions in the NFL that wide receiver never gets debated. Jerry Rice is hands down the greatest wide receiver in the history of the game, and nobody debates that. Nobody does. After that, it gets complicated about wide receiver because the numbers are so skewed now. Of course. Compared to what they were when, let's say, Art Monk played. Or Lance Allworth played.

Or Paul Warfield played. Yeah. I mean, the guys I know from that era all say that Paul Warfield was the greatest receiver they ever saw. But he played on a Miami Dolphins team half his career that didn't throw the ball that much. Yeah. So his numbers are really low. And the numbers today are so inflated with wide receivers. Like Randy Moss's numbers.

and T.O's numbers and guys like that. I mean, you know, so it's really hard to argue why receiver wants you get past Jerry Rice. Well, you're right about Jerry Rice. Yeah, I mean, and I think Jim Brown, for people of a certain age, that there's no argument when it comes to running back. Every other position you debate on who the greatest of all time is. There's a conversation, there's a debate. Jerry Rice, I've never seen, keeping up with the theme today, I've never seen a list of the greatest wide receivers of all time and not seen Jerry Rice number one.

Never. And I've probably never seen a list of the greatest running backs of all time and not seen Jim Brown number one. I would agree. But every other position, you know, I've talked about this before, but Sammy Baugh is the, Sammy Baugh. and Ken Houston, those are the two in franchise history that would be in the top 10 at their position all time. Actually, Sammy Ball may not be in the top 10 all time. He is on a lot of lists. Ken Houston is always in the top five, sometimes the top three of the greatest safeties of all time.

Daryl Green's never in the top 10 on a greatest cornerback list of all time. Art Monks never, and it's justifiable on a list of the top 10 receivers of all time. You know, Grim, Jacoby, Rigo, Sonny, you know, none of those people are anywhere near a top 10 on greatest of all time at their position. Ken Houston consistently, you find the list of the 10 greatest safeties of all time in almost, every list will have Ken Houston in the 10thuson in the 10thuson. top 10, and most of them will have them in the top five. Yes. And Sammy Baugh probably would be next. Look, we live in a city where Sammy Baugh and Walter Johnson are actually the two greatest team sport athletes based on, you know, how people in their sport feel about him.

Walter Johnson's considered to be the greatest pitcher ever. He was... Yeah, you're right. And, I mean, obviously, like with a guy like Walter Johnson, well, people look at the way he threw his motion. You know, he didn't throw his heart as players said today. But you have to, I mean, my measure would be how dominant was he in the time that he played, in the time this athlete played?

How dominant were they? Walter Johnson was through the roof. I mean, just absolutely remarkable. So it is interesting. that two of the greatest team athletes in the history of Washington haven't played

in Walter Johnson in over a hundred years in a hundred years Sammy Bond, not much not much less. I mean, when we have this conversation of the Mount Rushmore of team sports, and if we include each of the

major sports, the only athlete on the list that is modern, it's in this century, is Alex Ovechkin. Yes. Yes. Alex Ovechkin would be it. I mean, I wish it were Stephen Strasbourg. I think that his postseason accomplishments would have them, you know, in consideration.

But obviously, in Scherzer, I don't think, I don't know, Max Scherzer, you could, I guess, make a case for. but in this century the only player that you would yes the only player you would have on the list of Washington team sport athletes the Mount Rushmore of the 21st century would be Alex Sovetchin that's it

and I would include now which makes the argument more complicated Josh Gibson because Josh Gibson played for the homestead grade Yeah, but we're talking about the – you said this century. Now we're moving back all-time. I said this century. I know.

Going back to the all-time conversation is now a little bit more complicated because the Negro League players have to be considered more front and center because of the validation of their statistics now by Major League Baseball. Well, would he be on a Washington-Rushmore all-time team sport athletes? Would he be ahead of Walter Johnson as a baseball player? he'd be right there be neck and neck I mean Josh Gibson

that's one of the things I mentioned in my Willie Mays com I know we're going to get to Willie but I might want a point when we argue when we say Willie Mays is the greatest player of all time I say are we really ready to say that just weeks after we introduce the Negro League stats

into the Major League Baseball record books are we really ready to say he was better in Josh Gibson I'm not sure you know but yeah I think Josh Gibson now has to be considered, and I'm considering it part of my calling as a columnist moving forward to educate people about Josh Gibson and other Negro League players, because there's a statue outside. That's Park.

There's three statues. One is Walter Johnson, one is Frank Howard, and one is Josh Gibson. Tommy, what's the argument? And I read a little bit about it, and I forgot to kind of bring it up with you, but it's the perfect segue right now. On the Negro League statistics becoming now Major League Baseball all-time statistics, one of the pushbacks to Josh Gibson's batting average numbers, which he now has the, I think it's the highest single season batting average of all time, was it 456 or 466, something like that, and the highest career batting average overall. The pushback on that

is that they didn't play the same number of games. And over, you know, a 152 game stretch, which I think baseball played 152, right, before they moved it to 162? 154. 154. That eventually there would have been more, you know, the long grind of a season, there's no way that he would have hit four. What was it? What was the single season major league record?

That was the career. There's a single season number that was like $4.56? Oh, I don't know. Here, I'll look it up. That might be $4.56. But, I mean, look, I mean, what we can talk about what opened the door for this. What opened the door for this is the short season of COVID, where, you know, Major League Baseball is, what, 60 games? Yes. And those numbers are counted in those players' career numbers. Right. So that opened the door for them to say, well, you know, that that would be really complicated then.

Then the World Series championship that the Dodgers won shouldn't be counted either that year. Right. Yeah. And the Lakers bubble. 466. On May 28th, 2024, Major League Baseball announced that it had integrated Negro League statistics into its records, giving Gibson the highest single-season major league batting average at 466. He hit that in 1943 and the highest career batting average career at 372. But they played far fewer games.

Yeah, they played about 60-some games. Yeah. Negro League games. They actually played about 200 games a year. But a lot of them were, yes. Barnstorming, you know, semi-pro teams. And as far as being able to do that, the stress of a season, I mean, the stress of a Negro league player is just, I mean, it's immeasurable. Right.

You hear the stories about how they used to have to take these long bus rides, get dressed in the bus and then play the local team and then get back on the bus and then drive another 500 miles and then play the other local team. If we're talking about playing under duress, nobody played under more duress than Negro League ballplayers. Right. But it is true that the statistical average, batting average in particular is, you know, we're talking about averages.

We're not talking about, you know, total numbers of, you know, RBIs or home runs, etc. that, you know, if they were to have played 84 more games, that it's more likely than not he wouldn't have hit 466 for a season. Oh, I don't know if it's more likely or not, but it's certainly pos, it certainly arguable. Okay. I mean, it's a case to me, May.

Yeah. All right. I want to get to Willie Mays. I want your thoughts on Willie Mays, what you wrote in your column. I also have a question for you about a report. yesterday about the RFK's site bill in the Senate. We'll get to that and a lot more right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, guys, the NBA finals are over, but we've got a summer of baseball ahead of us. Football season will be here before we know it. And look,

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You know, Shelly's is the kind of place. I always talk about how you can sit outside and watch the world go by. You love doing that. You're great outdoors seating. But you can also sit inside, and the world is sealed off from you. You know? In other words, the world could be ending outside, but in Shelly's, You know, you've got the great soft lighting.

You've got the soft cushions, chairs, and couches. You've got the wood paddling all over the place. It's like a velvet bed that you're laying in, and you're sitting there smoking your cigar and drinking your beer. So Shelly is one of the great places to get away from the heat and the humidity because it's a different world in. side. It's also baseball central. Now that the NHL is almost over, the NBA season is over, and we're pretty much into baseball for the next couple months. Shelly's is a great place to watch

baseball, whether it's the nationals or the Orioles. And there's a good chance that you might run into a ballplayer. And there, I know a lot of ballplayers from out of town when they're coming through town. They stop in there. Some of a cigar smokers, they stop in Shelly's, they have a game. So there's a good chance you might be able to run into a ball player. Mike Rizzo is a regular customer, the Nats General Manager, at Shelly's backroom. And there's always people willing to debate who was the greatest baseball player of all time at a place like Shelly's backroom. Lots of debates at Shelly's. But they don't get out of hand. It's a friendly group. Even the out of towners come in and

understand that it's a nice conversation that you can have with locals. Do you consider yourself to be a local? Sure. You're a local. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Shelly's is the best. So if 1331 F Street Northwest, find it out more at shelley's backroom.com. Speaking of, before we get to your Willie May's column, the Nats won yesterday, three to one. Patrick Corbyn pitched pretty well, actually. They are 36 and 37. And as of, of this moment, the Washington Nationals who play this afternoon in the heat against Arizona, 1 o'clock first pitch, 105 first pitch, McKenzie Gore on the mound for Washington. They are currently tied for the second wild card spot in the National League with the St. Louis Cardinals.

Five and a half games behind the Braves who have the top spot. The Nats have owned the Braves this year. This is, you know, this is getting interesting. we got a long way to go. Yes, it is. We played 73 games, you know, eight short of the halfway mark. It would be real interesting if four weeks from now they're still in the same position because then we're talking, you know, mid-July, we're talking the trade deadline,

and it's getting serious then. But they have been, their pitching has been outstanding. And, you know, it's funny because Corbyn, even though he pitched well, the only run that Arizona scored, he walked in. You know? Yeah. So, I mean, he had a brief spell where he lost his control, but other times he was Corbyn at his best.

And, you know, they're getting timely hitting from guys like Winker and Luis Garcia and Lane Thomas and guys like that. down at that farm on AAA now. Dylan Cruz has been called up and he's playing with James Wood. You know, then that's the future Matt's outfielder. So, yeah, there's a lot of good things. Went deep yesterday, by the way, Cruz did? Yes.

It did. It's first hit at AAA. Yeah. It'd be nice, you know, if there are, you know, big moves at the trade deadline to add bats or a bat, It would be nice to see Wood or Cruz up at that point. You know, they have two bats, you know, in the minor leagues. And I think for most of this year, we have considered James Wood, right, to be the favorite to be brought up. More than Dylan Cruz, do you feel that's still the case?

Yeah, I still feel that's the case moving forward. I think we're going to see some roster changes over the next couple weeks. Even though Corbyn pitched well, they're going to have a decision to make. Which is I agree. He comes off the IL. And he hasn't pitched that great on his rehab start. He's had good moments and bad moments. It is rehab assignment, minor league starts.

I think Edwin Rosario has not played well. and I don't know how much longer he's going to be on this roster. There are going to be some roster changes moving forward, I think. All right. Tell everybody about Willie Mays. Well, you know, Willie Mays, my goodness, I mean, the outpouring of emotion about what Willie Mays meant to so many people was, you know, it was amazing a couple of days between Jerry West and Willie Mays.

Willie Mays, I had the pleasure. I mean, I watched Willie Mays play on television growing up. You know, I started watching baseball around 1960. So I got to watch the bulk at least half of Willie Mays' career on TV. So I saw him, and I saw him in person. I may have seen him in person when I was younger. going to a Mets game. I don't remember that. I saw him in person after he got traded to the Mets at the end of his career, like 73, I think.

Got traded in 72, and I saw him play at Shea in 73, and I saw him hit, I think, his last home run. So I consider myself fortunate to have been part of that, to have seen him play. but part of the discussion now about the passing of Willie Mays is he was considered the greatest player in the history of the game. A lot of people think that. To me, it's a two-player argument, maybe even more, but a lot of people think it's between him and Dave Bruce in terms of who was the greatest player.

But Willie Mays, why they think he was just greatest. player because he was the ultimate five-tool player. You know, a guy who could run, hit, throw, catch. He led the National League in Stolen Bases four times. You know, he led the National League at home runs, I think,

four times. He won I think 12 gold gloves in center field. So he was considered a guy that could do everything almost as good or better than anyone else of his time.

And I always say, if I could go back in time and be a sports writer, it would be in New York in the 50s. With all three teams? And you had three teams, and you had Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and Duke Snyder at Centerfield for each team. That's that song, Terry Cashman Road called Talking Baseball. It's also known as Willie Mickey and the Duke. That would be the argument in the city who had the better center fielder. Well, what would you have argued? Who would you have argued for?

I would have argued to argue Mickey Mantle because I was a Mickey Mantle guy. But the reality is it's Willie Mays. I mean, Duke Snyder was a great center fielder, but he's not the same class as Mays and Mantle. But, Mays, you know, he just – and again, I point this out in the column, I'm not really willing to crown him as to – greatest player of all time because you just can't ignore the Negro League players that you just introduced into the argument a couple weeks ago.

So it's a real, you know, I mean, people want to swear by it. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, but I'm not willing to crown him as the greatest, but he's certainly in a very, very small closet group of conversation about the greatest players of all time. And, you know, I wrote about how he and Robertau Comente and Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson made up this quartet of players that were set aside than everybody else, you know, that were always considered to be, I call them baseball royalty, you know, just a little bit better than everybody else. And they were all in the same group. I mean, each of them, it's ironic, each of them had been, has won the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Wow. Okay, there have only been 12 players who have done that, and those, each of those four have, you know, one, you know, Clemente's was posthumously after he died after the 72 season. But that's the group right there in the second part of the 20th century. Those four, that's, well, I call it baseball's royal court. you know, and he was the king of that court. He was the best of that bunch. You know, a lot of people think Hank Aaron was

because he, you know, he had 755 home runs at the home run record for years, but I still think he has the home run record. But, you know, Willie, Willie had the flare and the style that set him aside. He played, you know, he played about seven years in New York, and then like the other 15 or so

in San Francisco before the, you know, when the Giants moved from New York to San Francisco. One of the things I bring up in my column is now who takes over, he was considered the greatest living player of all time. That was not arguable. Okay, now who takes over that crown?

And I think it's Ken Griffey Jr. I think it's an easy argument. I mean, I think Ken Griffey Jr. stature are almost comparable to what Willie Mace did. And so I think it's Griffey. It's funny because I see people argue on social media, and people bring up Barry Bonds, and he doesn't even enter in the argument as far as I'm concerned because of his steroid use.

But, I mean, even with Barry Bonds, it's Ken Griffey. It's Griffey. Griffey was the centerfielder. Griffey was one of the greatest centerfielder's of his time. Is Mike Schmidt even in the conversation or not? Well, then you have the – once you get past Ken Griffey Jr., and you eliminate the cheaters like Bonds and A-Rod, then you're down to Mike Schmidt.

And with a talk in position player, not the pitchers. Then you're down to Johnny Benz. Then you're down to maybe Ricky Henderson. Okay. Those are big drops to me from Ken Griffey. There is no quartet anymore. I mean, I think Griffiths the great thing. living player, and then it gets a little bit more complicated after that.

You mentioned Barry Bonds. You made reference to Barry Bonds. Barry Bonds is the godson of Willie Maze. What did Willie Maze ever say or think about Barry Bonds, his godson and a tremendous career, but also the tremendous controversy because of the steroids around it? Well, Willie Mays was very loyal to Barry Bond. He never publicly said anything against his godson, always supported him, always defended his reputation. I don't know what he thought deep down. You know, Willie was very protective of his place in history.

He did not, contrary to a lot of opinion, he did not get along with Hank Aaron very well. Really? They did not have his relationship. Well, because Willie could be petty sometimes You know And, you know, he didn't like Hank Aaron getting the attention

that he did. You know, Willie would could be a complicated human being sometimes. I mean, everyone, I mean, the guy just passed away. I'm not trying to dump on him. But there have been plenty of instances where he's been, he's exhibited

difficult behavior at public events. at charity events. There have been other times where he's been, you know, very, very willing and open and friendly, but he could be difficult at times to deal with. He's always been a defender of Barry Bond, it's always been loyal to him.

I think one of the things that I found interesting yesterday, and I mentioned it on the podcast yesterday, and I didn't know this, is that, you know, Mays, during the Korean War, didn't play basically most of 1952 and all of 1953. And when he came back, he hit 41 home runs in 1954, 51 in 1955. And I saw the point was made, and I'm sure you've, you know, you know this, is that if he didn't have that, you know, near two years off, he's the one that would have broken Babe Ruth's

home run record. He would have done it probably in 71 or 72, you know, two to three years before Hank Aaron did it. Yeah, that's a good case. You could certainly make that case. He had 660 career home run. It's not a far fetched to think that over that two-year period that he in play that he would have hit at least 45 home runs total to have passed. Well, would have been 714. He would have been 54 short, but in two years, essentially, I mean, he had 92 home runs in the two years following his service commitment. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's actually likely that he would have been the one to have broken Bay, Bruce's record,

which would have been... But it wouldn't have lasted long. No, it wouldn't have lasted long. Well, that's right, because his career was over. I mean, his two seasons at the end of his career, his season and a half or whatever it was, Tommy, with the Mets, when you got to the 70s, he was no longer the same player at 40 years old, 41 years old.

He did hit 20, no, it was 18 home runs as a 40-year-old in 1970. 71 in San Francisco, but in 72, you said you saw his last home run. His last home run came in 72 in a Mets uniform. But anyway. I saw that home run. I know. You said that. Yeah. Did you, but you have him number two all time behind Babe Ruth?

No. Again, I got Gibson as number one. Okay, you've got Gibson as one, so you'd have. have mazes three? Yeah. Okay. I still think Babe Ruth, I mean, what he did, and I mean, look, you want to bring in the whole segregation argument and that he didn't do it against black players.

You know, I always tell people that the Negro leagues were not a league of Superman. There were good pitchers. There were bad pitchers. There were good players. There were bad players, just like the major leagues. Okay. there are a lot of circumstances that would have come into play. Babe Ruth still would have been Babe Ruth.

Yeah, he's Babe Ruth. So there is, sometimes there is a one of one. All right, I want to get Tommy's thoughts on this front office sports story yesterday about the holdup in the Senate with the RFK site bill. We'll get Tommy to weigh in on that and more right after these words. from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, most of us are interested in our mental and physical well-being to a certain degree. And with that in mind, I'd like to welcome and introduce a new sponsor to the podcast.

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50% off plus another 10% off. That's 60% off on your purchase. 86690 Nation, windonation.com. Tommy, yesterday, A.J. Perez from front office sports wrote a story that negotiations over the Native American imagery, the logo, the Wetzel Senator Steve Daines issue, is the roadblock in the Senate right now. He wrote that the RFK Stadium bill that passed the House remained stuck in the Senate is unlikely to move until after Thanksgiving. Senator Steve Daines has single-handedly halted the bill over the commander's logo from there are days, the Redskin Days. You know, you reported a couple of weeks ago that Chris Van Hollen was the biggest obstacle and the biggest concern for everybody involved. So what do you make of this? I mean, it would appear that

there are at least two obstacles right now. And Thanksgiving, wow. I mean, I think the team had planned initially to hopefully have some sort of an announcement by the time the 2024 season opened up. Yeah, and still, I think they've still got the rest of the this month to maybe, you know, work something out. I think they've always been kind of optimistic. Maybe that's been misleading that they can come to some sort of agreement

with Senator Daines and the Wetzel family to move this forward. Maybe that was a little bit too optimistic. But that's just to get out of the committee. You know, and

what I reported, and I can guarantee it's 100% accurate, is even if it gets out of committee, it's not going anywhere in the Senate as long as Chris Van Hollen is going to block it. So, I mean, that's the decision makers in Washington, I can guarantee you see Chris Van Hollen as their biggest obstacle. They think the Dane thing is something that eventually will get worked out. If it's delayed until November, that's very unfortunate, like you pointed out. but that's something that can be solved. There's no resolution with Van Hollen, at least nothing visible, you know, unless you get him to change his mind somehow.

There's nothing you can, there's no deal to be made. He's protecting the state of Maryland's efforts to try to get the team to stay there. That's the bigger problem, and still remains the bigger problem. So, I mean, you're essentially saying that Van Hollen's going to kill it regardless. Yes. Well, what are they going to have to do with Van Hollen? What's the quid pro quo going to be to convince him to vote yes on this? How are they going to flip him?

I don't know. I don't know how they do that. I mean, if he does it, if he can single-handedly kill this thing in the Senate, then there's no chance. That eliminates RFK as a possibility, unless it were to get tagged to another bill, which they've already tried once and it didn't work. Right. Everything you said is accurate just now.

And I think people are missing that story and missing the boat on that. So you don't think the chances are very good at all. And again, that's Van Hollen. What about the new Maryland Senate? Whether it's Larry Hogan or whether it's Angela, what's her? her name, Ash, Ashbrook? I always get her name wrong. The Democratic candidate. She was the PG County executive. It's Angela. Yeah, Alps Brooks or something. I don't know. Yes. She was the P.C. County executive. Yeah. You know, of course, she's not going to, she's going to stand in the way.

You know, so this. But they, but they're not coming into office until January of 2025. So they got to get this thing done before then. Yes. Yes, I'm not optimistic. Again, I've said, you know, Landover is the path of least resistance, and it's more still now than ever. And people are missing the vote on the story about Van Hollen. I don't understand why, but I can guarantee the people in Washington and the district who count, that's their biggest concern. Yeah. All right. We'll see what happens here over the next few months. But, you know, the other issue, and I briefly mentioned this last night, is just the timeline. I mean, I think the team wants to be in their new digs by the end of this decade. I mean, if you don't get this thing out of Senate until Thanksgiving or later, you know, you're just pushing it back and you're giving Josh Harris and everybody else more of a reason

and more, by the way, of an explanation as to why they couldn't do D.C. You know, it's not going to be on them. if the city doesn't get control of that land. There is a clock ticking, yeah. Real quickly. Caitlin Clark last night in a win over the Mystics. By the way, they've won a bunch of games here recently, Indiana has. Had a career high 12 rebound.

She had 18 points, 12 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals. If you watch her, she's so good off the ball as a defender. She just is incredible with her sort of anticipation, basketball. anticipation, which is why she ends up with a bunch of steals. But the game last night, another sellout in Indiana. They had 17,7474 in Indiana to see the Mystics, who were one of the worst teams in the league. And the average attendance now for her rookie season, every game is almost 16,000 a game home or away. Just amazing what she's done in the WNBA with attendance. All right, that's it. Do you have anything else? Nothing else for you, boss.

All right, good job today. I'll be back tomorrow, probably with Cooley.