The Kevin Sheehan Show - "A Very Good NFL Back-up QB"

Episode Date: October 18, 2023

Kevin today on former PFF and now SumerSports analyst Eric Eager's comment on Kevin's radio show that Sam Howell is a "very good NFL back-up quarterback". You'll hear Sam Howell's thoughts from today's press conference on the sack totals as well. Kevin finished up with an Iraq-war veteran's story of survival and using golf as a way to deal with the aftermath.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheen Show. Here's Kevin. Our show's presenting sponsors, Wind Donation. If you've been thinking about new windows, especially with winter approaching,

you want to reduce those heating bills. You want your home to look better. Call them at 86690 Nation, or go to Windonation.com. Mention my name. You'll get a free estimate, and they will take very good care of you. One guest on the show today,

Mike Jaborek is a veteran of the Iraq War. Mike is with a group called PGA Hope. Hope stands for helping our patriots everywhere. And PGA Hope is using the game of golf to help veterans enhance their physical, mental, social, and emotional well-being. They were just in town earlier this week at Congressional playing. Mike's got an incredible personal story as well. He'll join us in the final segment of the show today. If you haven't rated or reviewed the show and don't mind taking 30 to 60 seconds to do so,

it's much appreciated if you do it. For those that have, thank you so much. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't done that and follow us on Apple and Spotify as well. By the way, it reminds me I met somebody yesterday. Actually played golf yesterday with Zabe. We had not played golf in a while, caught up with him, had a good day. But somebody asked me before we went out, how do I listen to your podcast? And I said, do you have an iPhone?

No. Do you have Spotify? No. And I said, just go to the website. We have a website, the Kevin Sheehan Show.com. Now, most of you listen via Apple podcasts. That's the majority. Spotify Next.

There are other podcast platforms as well. but really the massive majority of listeners to this podcast, podcast listen via Apple or Spotify. But for those people that, you know, haven't figured out how to listen to a podcast or don't have an iPhone, just mention to them that they can listen to the show at the Kevin Sheehan Show.com. This show pops up every day right there. There's a big purple button, a play button, you hit it,

and you listen to it. It's also the way to email. this show. I get many emails from a lot of you, one of which I will get to here momentarily to get to the significant part of the show today, which will be about Sam Hal and the sacks that he has taken through the first six weeks of the season. Apparently a sore subject with some of you, but we will get to that momentarily. I just wanted to mention that a week from tonight, the Wizards open up their 20, 23, 20, 24 season. Lots of new players, new front office.

And I was reading something earlier this morning. Zach Lowe, the ESPN senior writer, put out a ranking 1 to 30 of the most watchable and the most fun teams in the NBA. And our wizards are ranked 30th out of 30 in terms of watchability and fun. Yeah, this is going to be a long season. And interestingly, as we talked about, especially with the acquisition of Jordan Poole, Tyos Jones, Gallinari, I actually don't know that they will be the worst team in the league. You know, when you are trying to tank and eventually get high draft positioning, you got to win like 25 games, not 30 games, you know, 25 or less, not 30 to 35.

I don't know what they're going to end up winning this year, but Zach Lowe ranks them as the least fun and the least watchable NBA team this year and essentially wrote something to the effect of, you know, the last many years has been leading to this moment, you know, relentlessly middling all of their fans year and year out, and now they're going to go for, you know, essentially the 60 loss season, something like that.

We'll see if it turns out to be that way. By the way, this will be the first year in 13 seasons. No John Wall, no Bradley Beal. John Wall's rookie year was that 2010 season, 2010-2011 season, and since John Wall got drafted, number one overall, and Bradley Beale, a few years later, at number three overall, we've had either Wall or Beale on the team. Most of those years, both of them on the team.

but this is the first year without either one. That doesn't disappoint some of you, and it doesn't disappoint me either, to be honest with you. I just wish they had traded Bradley Beale at a point in which they could have maximized their return. But just a reminder to everybody that the NBA season is coming. No, we don't talk a lot of NBA on this podcast during football season. Most of the NBA discussion takes place during the NBA playoffs. or occasionally some Wizards conversation during the course of their regular season, although I can't imagine there's going to be a lot to talk about this year.

All right, I want to start the show. I guess I've kind of already started the show. But I want to start with this email that I got from Tim. But before I get to this email from Tim, I want to play for you something that Eric Eager said to me yesterday on radio. It ended up being a big topic on my radio show today. And I'm going to make it a topic here in this opening segment of the show on the podcast. Eric Eager, if you recall, he's been on the show several times.

He was with pro football focus for years. Now he's with a group called Sumer Sports. He does a lot of work with Thomas Demetra, former general manager in the NFL. Before I get to what Eric said, actually, you know what, I'm going to start with what Eric said. Eric said this about Sam Howell yesterday and specifically the problem that Sam Howe has taking sacks. I think Sam Hall is a very good backup quarterback in the NFL. You know, he can get in there. You know, you look at contrast with Tyra Taylor on Sunday night against the bills.

And it's like that's a guy that's not going to lose you a game. I think Sam Howell can lose you a game. sacks and interceptions and things like that, but he can win you a game too, which I think is very characteristic of the guy that he was preceded by in Taylor Heineke. I don't know if he's a long-term answer. Sack rates are incredibly stable year to year. It's hard to shake that. And so if I'm, you know, if I'm, you know, Washington, I'm obviously looking to a different

place at that position. But as far as a bridge to the future, while you're trying to. trying to figure out whether or not you want to continue the course with Ron Rivera, possibly move to somebody like Eric Vienemy or something completely different. I think that he's been fine. I think Sam Hal is a very good backup quarterback, Eric Eager said. And Eric, again, pro football focus, high-end analytics guy now with Sumer Sports, working with Thomas Demetrov.

Eric's not one of those guys that is so beholden to him that he's incredibly arrogant about, you know, sort of analytics is if it's the only data that exists that NFL head coaches should be using or NFL general managers should be using. He's not that kind of guy. In fact, several of the former PFF guys, I think, are very good as guests and not completely beholden to their grades. We have Nick Ackridge on the show all the time. Nick will always say, you know, Sometimes the grading doesn't capture the entire picture. Anyway, so, you know, obviously that created a lot of feedback. I think Sam Hal is a very good backup quarterback.

Because I think these six games have led a lot of us to believe that there is something there, which, you know, I to a certain degree believe there's something there. I didn't know what to think before the season started. Now I think there's something there. He's got a chance. We had that conversation on Monday's recap show of the Atlanta game. I wanted to read this email from Tim. Tim sent me an email right after listening to this, obviously.

He wrote, Kevin, please, I am begging you, don't ever put this guy Eric Ogre. I think he knew his name was Eric Eager, on your show again. Sam Hal, an NFL backup, has he watched him play? One of the most ridiculous hot takes I've heard in a while. You'd have to be a moron to buy into that. Sam is clearly not an NFL backup. I'm surprised you let him off the hook because I think you're finally starting to come around on Howl,

better late than never. Just real quickly, what I'm going to say here is not pointed at the majority of you. It's pointed at people like Tim. Tim, you are onto something. You're right. I am coming around on how. But it can't be described as coming around because that would mean that I had a position to begin with, which I didn't. But yeah, no, I, on Monday show, on the recap of the Atlanta game show, I said, look, we've got six games. It's a very small sample size, but he's got a chance. You know, there's a lot of good that we've seen in these six games. But I've also been talking very much about this

fatal flaw, which Eric Eager really based his, you know, prediction on Sam on. Look, whether it was the Carson Went stuff or the Sam Hal offseason stuff, some of you, Tim, you've just got to stop being so personally offended, so sensitive to any sort of criticism or any sort of an opinion that doesn't, you know, totally agree with yours. If you're looking for, you know, positive, positive positive, you know, pom-pom waving content. This is not the show for you. It isn't. There's probably a few options out there,

not the option we used to have with Larry's show on Comcast Sportsnet for all those years. But come on, man, I get it to a certain degree. I know as a fan base, it's been beaten down so much over the years. I mean, some of you used to tell me that you wouldn't even say you were a Redskin fan. I never ever got to that point where I was. afraid or embarrassed to say I was a Redskins fan. That's exaggerating. But I do know that, you know, this franchise has been mocked and ridiculed for years and deservedly so. It earned all of that. And hopefully we are, you know, living a new day now. But look, I mean, this is, you know,

these are real conversations based, you know, we're not, nobody's just making this up. The dude's got 34 sacks. He's on pace to completely shatter the NFL record before the end of the season, like three or four games before the end of the regular season. He's going to break the record. And so it is, it's a real thing. Look, I've been talking about this for a while now. This is a fatal flaw with all of the positive stuff that we've mentioned about Sam. Imagine, by the way, if he did, you know, if the arm was just average, if the mobility was, eh, me. I'd be calling for Jacoby Brissette right now. If the other stuff wasn't as good as it's been,

I don't want to inflate that either. Like, none of it's been elite, but it's been better than average. He's got a better than average arm. He's got better than average release, better than average accuracy, better than average throwing with anticipation, better than average mobility.

All of those things are incredibly promising. But, yeah, he's got, something that, like, we don't even have to, do we even need the numbers, like the historical data on sacks? You know, the understanding that anybody that's ever analyzed this sport now knows that, A, you know, sacks are a quarterback stat, you know, as much as it is anything else. And, B, if you have a very high sack percentage number, you can't be a starting quarterback at a high level in the NFL or really even at an average level in the NFL? That's where Eric was coming from.

Do we even need to know that? Just watching it, don't we know that, man, you know, at times in the pocket, you know, he just holds onto it too long. You can't do that. I mean, we obviously understand that 215 lost yards in six games, as I talked about the other day, you don't need to be, you know, some analytics nerd or some statistical wizard to know as a longtime football fan, sacks stop drives, they limit your ability to score, and they increase your opponent's chance to score points. It's not sustainable at this level.

We're all hoping that it improves, and I've seen enough positive in six games. I want to see the rest of the season. I want to see Sam become one of those outliers that improves on this, because one of the things that, you know, look, Eric's premise, is based on two things that are historically true. One, sacks taken at a high rate are crippling to an offense. And two, when you've had this as a flaw, as an ongoing flaw, it's not typically something that improves a lot. As he said, sack rates are stable year to year. Therefore, his conclusion was backup quarterback. It's not crazy. It's not a crazy opinion. at all. It is an opinion based on, again, sack rates taken at this high rate are crippling,

not sustainable, and typically those that have high sack rates don't improve a lot. Maybe he'll be one that improves. You know, Alex Smith had a very high sack rate early on in his career, and he improved a lot. He became kind of a middle-of-the-road sack percentage guy. And the way he improved, by the way, was better coaching, growth, maturity. He also became one of the checkdown quarterbacks of his generation. I mean, PFF named the stat, the checkdown stat after Alex Smith. He became the true checkdown Charlie. You know, it was not Kirk Cousins.

Actually, Kirk Cousins was the opposite of Checkdown Charlie, even though some of you didn't understand that, which is fine. Alex Smith was the Checkdown Charlie. it was one of the reasons that his sack percentage improved. By the way, I think it's one of the reasons that Sam in recent games has improved a little bit. Remember, that Buffalo game is a major kind of skewing of all of the numbers, but the other games haven't been great either. But I think one of the reasons that maybe he hasn't taken seven, eight, nine sacks in games

is that Eric B. Enemy, I think,'s done a pretty good job of scheming up short game, and Sam's gotten to the checkdown. a little bit faster. But it's not a crazy take at all. I mean, if we all agree that sacks taken at this rate are unsustainable for starting quarterbacks in the NFL, and that historically, for whatever reason, sack rates are not something that change a lot over the course of a career. If you've had it as a flaw and he had it going back to college, and that's what

Eric said. It's not just the six games, it's the fact that it was an issue at North Carolina. There's no doubt, as I said the other day, he fell to the fifth round because of what we've seen in six games from a sack standpoint. It's the number one reason that he fell to the fifth round. There are general managers, scouts, front offices said, we like a lot about this kid, but sack rates are crippling to an offense and those that have to have. this as an issue typically don't improve. So what we want to see here is we want to see massive improvement. It's not that hard. By the way, I want to mention something too. I'm not taking the offensive line off the hook. I'm not. But understand this. You know, the pass blocking

win rate number per ESPN's next gen stats, Washington's 13th in the league in pass block win rate. PFF has Washington at eighth in the league in pass block win rate. I don't think watching this offensive line, it's a very good offensive line. I am with the majority of you on that. I don't think it's a good run blocking line. I don't think it's a good pass blocking line. But I do understand in these six games that the majority of the sacks have been quarterback-related, that Sam holds the ball to.

long. I can see that watching with my own two eyes. That in the pocket in particular, he doesn't all the, you know, he does not consistently have great feel in the pocket. He also panics a little bit. As he did in that first sack on Sunday, he ran right into Grady Jarrett. It was pass blocked perfectly. He had plenty of time in the pocket if he had worked the pocket, but he ran right into the sack. But yeah, I mean, I would like. to see a better offensive line, much better offensive line. If he had some of the great offensive lines of all time, you know, the electric company of the bills in the 70s or the hogs or, you know, the Raiders or, you know, in recent years, some of the cowboy offensive lines,

some of the Eagle offensive lines, you know, the San Francisco offensive line, would it be better? Would he take as many sacks? Well, he'd certainly be able to afford to hold onto the ball long and perhaps get away with it, it's still a problem. Like, I don't know that improving the offensive line is going to dramatically improve the sack percentage rate. It'll help a little bit, but that's not the problem. That's not what we're watching. Again, I don't think it's a good offensive line either.

But I think the sack problem is a quarterback problem in Washington. and over the next 12 games, 11 games, excuse me, we have to see some improvement. Does it need to improve by the end of the year to where he's in the middle of the pack by the end of the year? No, but we've got to see improvement between now and the end of the year so that there's at least an idea going into 2024 that if he continues to improve, then he's going to be in the middle of the pack

and it'll be great. You know, right now he's 32nd in the league in SACP, percentage. 32nd. You know, Mahomes is at 2.6%. He's at 13.8%. Is he ever going to be Mahomes in this category? Probably not. Probably not.

But he's got to get to the point where guys like Prescott and, you know, Purdy and others are in this 6.5 to 7% range. He's got to cut it in half. He really does. we've got to see by the end of this year, you know, something trending, say in the last five games of the year, a sack percentage that is in the middle of the league. Because then the things that he does well, he'll be able to do them and they'll be able to trump a middle of the league sack percentage rate. I just went through all of the drives from the games this year. And I took out all the drives at the end of halves or end of games where they were not trying to score.

And he was sacked, he's been sacked 34 times, but it's 26 drives that have included the 34 sacks. The reason being, there have been eight drives in which he's been sacked more than once in the drive. Just to give you an idea, all right, 26 drives with sacks, two touchdowns. There have been some field goals made and field goals missed. Seven field goals made, seven field goals missed. But on five of the seven, the sack actually, you know, led to having to kick the field goal, whether it was missed or made. So really what we're talking about, I'm sorry, no, six of the seven.

So what we're really talking about is 26 drives, two touchdowns, a field goal, three scores. Very, very limiting. A fatal flaw at this rate. A backup quarterback, as Eric Eager described, at this rate. But so much good otherwise that we sit, we watch, we observe, and we hope that it turns out to be something that was an early portion of his career, small sample-sized thing with great coaching, with great coachability, he improved in this area. Because if he does improve in this area, he's got a chance.

He's got a real chance to be what, a starting quarterback in the NFL. At what level? Give me some time on that. You need time as well. He does some things at a pretty good level. But they're, you know, we need more. more. Just like with the sacks, we need a larger sample size. Just like with all of the good things he's done, we need a larger sample size. Sam Hal actually addressed the media today and spoke about

the sack issue. You'll hear that when we come back right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by the bullpen downtown right next to Nats Park. If you're looking for the ultimate outdoor destination to watch football, watch some baseball as well, hang out with friends, live music, obviously beers, cocktails, etc. Look no further than the bullpen right in the heart of Navy Yard next to Nat's Park. Well, admission is absolutely free, for starters. This has been the spot, as most of you know, for Nat's fans, for baseball fans. But this year, they're bringing you all the NFL and college football action that you,

you can handle. So rally your squad, wear your team colors, and head on over to the bullpen. They've got the games, the drinks, and the energy to make every moment unforgettable. Visit them today at the bullpenDC.com to see the game schedule. Beautiful fall weekends ahead. Go to the bullpen, hang out with friends, drink beers, and watch games. It's a great spot. So on the Sack Sam Hal conversation, he spoke to that. He was asked multiple times during the presser today. Wednesdays. I mean, at the end of the day, you just want to make good decisions. And, you know, I think stacks are negative plays, like I kind of said earlier. They really kill your drives, especially, you know, when you're in field go range, you can take a sad, get out of field, field go range and just little

things like that. I think it's just you got to have good feel for the situation. And obviously, you know, you want to get rid of the football, but you don't want to, you know, throw it into a crowd or throw it to someone that's covered. So that's, that's one thing I'm just trying to continue to get better at is, you know, if I do need to find. an incompletion, just throwing it at somebody's feet and just find incompletion and just live to play another down. But yeah, it's just an area where I'm continuing to grow. Sam, over the last few weeks, has used this expression about doing a better job of finding incompletions. I think it's interesting the way he phrases that, because I don't think I've

ever heard a quarterback describe it that way. It must be coming from Eric Bienimi or Ken Zampeze or one of the coaches. But typically, when a quarterback's, you know, taking a lot of sacks, I got to throw the ball away. I got to get rid of it. I got to throw it away. But with Sam in recent weeks, I've got to do a better job of finding incompletions. I just think it's an interesting way to phrase it. You're the same thing. But, you know, we do understand and he understands that taking these sacks are problematic to productive offense. By the way, I was reading from Ben's column today where, you know, I mentioned, you know, I mentioned. the pro football focus numbers where their pass block win rate is eighth in the league, 13th in the next-gen stats pass-block win rate. But of the 34 sacks allowed, pro-football focus is charting attributed just 14 to pass-blocking, whether it's the offensive line or, you know, others involved in pass-blocking. So that would put, you know, 20 of the 34 on Sam. Last year, by comparison, Ben had this in his column per PFF.

Washington's quarterbacks took 48 sacks, all right? That was a combination of quarterbacks, obviously. And 33 of them were attributed to the offensive line. That actually just makes sense to me. Watching last year, I remember saying over and over again, I mean, I understand that Carson's holding onto the ball too long or Taylor's holding on to it too long. I actually probably would guess that Carson had a higher percentage of his sacks due to holding onto the ball longer.

But I said all last year, I mean, some of these sacks are no chancers. Like the pressure is immediate. And this year, I don't feel the same way. And the PFF numbers are backing up what my eyes tell me, which is this year it's much more of a quarterback problem. Last year it was more of an offensive line problem. The good news, again, to sort of, you know, make sure that people like Tim aren't triggered by the entire conversation about the quarterback. The good news here is the actual quarterbacking beyond the taking of the sacks is much better than it was last year with Carson Wentz or Taylor Heineke. Everything else Sam is doing is much better than what we saw last year.

I wanted to mention one other thing. So in relation to the game on Sunday, and what I think will be part of the game plan this coming Sunday against the Giants. And that is that. Washington played more of their five-man front on Sunday than they did at any point this year, their Cinco package, their five-man front, which Rivera called in his press conference the other day, which I thought was very interesting,

he referred to it as a 3-4 defense. And then he talked about having a big body in there as a 4 technique. That didn't make any sense to me at all. If he was referring to John Ridgeway, just so you guys understand, John Ridgeway is basically a nose tackle in their five-man front. That is a zero technique, defensive lineman. He's playing zero technique right over the center, you know. A 4 technique is more on the outside towards where the tackles are.

I think Ron just got confused, but the 3-4 defense part of it, you know, referring to their Sinkgo package is 3-4, when you look at it, because Chase Young is in a two-point stance as much as he is, it looks at times like a 3-4. If Montez Sweat or on Sunday after he left the game, Casey Two-Hill, if they were up in two-point stances, it would look like a 3-4. I mean, basically, Chase Young in that five-man Cinco package playing what should be the fifth defensive lineman, because he stands up in a two-point stance, it sort of does look like a three-four. By the way, I still don't have an answer as to why Chase Young plays a lot in a two-point stance, even when they're in their base defense. It's an interesting thing to me.

Montez Sweat doesn't. I wonder if Jack just says, do what you're comfortable doing. I don't know. I don't know if there's an advantage or a disadvantage, a question for Coolly, which, by the way, it just reminds me, I did not mention that Cooney's not going to be on the show today. I should have mentioned that right from the jump. My apologies. Hopefully on Friday, he had something come up.

He couldn't make it. I should have led the show with that. I just completely forgot to mention that yesterday I teased that Coolly was going to be on the show, and he's not going to be on the show. My apologies. Sorry, it took me so long to get there today. But anyway, with respect to the five-man front, they played it very well against a run-first team. And by the way, upon further review of Sunday's game,

I know I mentioned Cody Barton and Jamin Davis. I thought Cody Barton clearly had his best game of the year. I thought he was outstanding, actually, in the game. Jamie Davis thought maybe that was one of his best all-around games of his career on Sunday. But I think we're going to see a lot of it against the Giants. The Giants have less of an ability to hurt you downfield. It depends on who's quarterbacking too, although there may not be that much of a difference with that offensive line, Tyrod Taylor or Daniel Jones.

The difference maker is Saquan Barkley being in the backfield. They may get Andrew Thomas back. You could argue he's their second best player on offense. but you've got to stop the run. The game plan against the giant should be almost identical to the game plan against the Falcons. Stop the run and make whomever is quarterbacking beat you. The Giants' offensive weaponry isn't as impressive as Atlanta's. You know, Atlanta with London in pits and Hollins in Bejohn Robinson and Tyler Algier and

Jono Smith actually more impressive than the Giants overall playing. making position players. So I think we're going to see more of that five-man front against the Giants. Now, one thing it does make you vulnerable to is play action and boot, which Atlanta was pretty successful on in the first half. For whatever reason, though, like I have thought that Washington has been a good matchup for the Giants, especially defense to their offense, but it hasn't always worked out that way. right? Also, as it relates to Sunday's game, and I retweeted this because I saw Kime had tweeted out.

So John Hussey's crew will be the crew that's working the game Sunday in the Meadowlands. John Hussey's crew was the crew that worked the Sunday night game that they lost 20 to 12 where there was a mugging in the end zone that wasn't called late in the game. Just remember that incompletion, which was ruled in incompletion and not what it should have been, which was past interference, it would have still not been a score. It would have still led to a first and goal situation, and maybe they would have gotten it in. They probably would have. Let's assume that they would have. They still would have had to make the two-point conversion to tie the game.

That was not the difference between winning and losing the game. It was the difference between having a chance to win the game and not having a chance. chance to win the game. It's funny the way those things get framed after the fact when you get absolutely jobbed on a call. I get it. You know, Curtis Samuel's open in the end zone and he got mugged, no call. But it wasn't the difference between winning and losing the game. That call didn't cost them the game. It cost them an opportunity to win the game. What really cost them in that game were two turnovers, costly turnovers, including a touchdown early in the game on a sack fumble return by Kvon Tibido. Washington, two-point favorite Sunday in the Meadowlands against

the Giants. That number provided by our good friends at MyBooky, go to mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin, DC, for a cash deposit bonus. You have to use my promo code, Kevin D.C. By the way, the baseball game tonight at my bookie. The Astros on the road down two games to none facing Max Scherzer, and they are plus 106 right now. I love the Astros against Mad Max tonight. He has not pitched since mid-September with that shoulder injury. By the way, the last time we saw Scher face the Astros, game seven of the 2019 World Series, gave up an early home run. gave up two runs on seven hits through five innings. They were down two nothing when he left the game.

He handed it over to Patrick Corbin, who did a phenomenal job. Daniel Hudson finished it off. But of course, the big call in that game was pulling Zach Granke for the Astros after he had given up just his second hit, which was that home run in the seventh to Anthony Rendon. And two batters later, it was Howie Kendrick going deep for two-run shot and the lead, a lead they never gave up en route to the 2019 World Series title. I love the Astros tonight. Max has been an average playoff pitcher. He's a lock hall of famer, obviously. Seven and seven lifetime in the postseason as a starter, 3.58 ERA. He's given up 18 home runs and 14 starts in the

postseason. think that there's a lot of buzz around Max pitching tonight. Texas is up to nothing. I love Houston tonight. All right. When we come back, we're going to finish up with a really interesting story from an Iraq war veteran who's doing some really good things to help veterans utilizing the game of golf. We'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Jumping on with us right now is Mike Jaborik. Mike is a 39-year-old. retired U.S. Army Sergeant. He is from Sugar Grove, Illinois.

He was stationed in Iraq back in the mid-2000s. He was awarded a Purple Heart, and maybe we can hear the story of why. But he is with a group called PGA Hope. Hope stands for helping our patriots everywhere. It's the flagship military program for the PGA Reach, which is a charitable foundation of the PGA of America. and they believe that veterans, you know, out there playing golf, helps a lot of veterans sort of reacclimate to a normal life back in the States.

And Mike's a part of that. And so let's start with that. I mean, you were in town. You just played congressional. I would bet that this is the kind of thing that is so helpful. And at the same time, as a golf enthusiast, which you are, you get to play a lot of nice courses, too. Yeah, certainly.

Playing congressional, for me and Chris Cordova, we're at the squad leaders. We got to come back for a second time, and we both have talked about, like, it's almost like a pinch yourself moment, like to play Top 100 course. Yeah. That's obviously in some of the best conditions in the world.

I mean, like I was joking with Jason, their general manager saying, I don't think there's a leaf out of place on your facility. But with that, and I get such a great challenge for the mental skill aspect of it, and then you test your golf game. You can go out and shoot a really good number at a local muni, and then you come out here and you kind of walk away a little bit humbled and with a much different appreciation of the guys you see playing on TV.

Right. Well, I mean, playing your local muni and then, you know, playing a course that's hosted, you know, major championships, and by the way, it's going to be the host of a Ryder Cup, you know, in 2034, I think it is. You know, just we'll get to hope and your story here in a moment. But other than the distance, the greens are completely different. The speed of the greens is just a lot different. That's what really takes a long time to get used to, right?

Or wrong? Oh, absolutely. The greens are a different. It's funny when you watch, you know, you miss like a five-foot right here, local course. You know, like, oh, that should have went left or right. everything there, you have to get, you get read from a caddy, and you're like, oh, okay, and you go out there and you think you

stroke the perfect put with pace in it. You might leave one on the edge, like on 11, I had a chance for an eagle, and it was about a 10-footer, and it hung up. I went up to it, we were waiting for it to drop. It was like right there teetering, and it never dropped. I went in the old tap-reou as well,

wait about 10 seconds, and still didn't drop, so hopefully they'd take a birdie, but. Yeah, and, you know, Or the bunkers. The bunkers are way deeper than anything I had played previously. Getting up and down out of a bunker or just, yeah, the bunkers, I think, are, that's another whole thing, too.

And then one good thing there, though, you don't have to dodge Bigfoot's unrake footmark at congressional. That's not an issue there, so that's a lot of fun, too. Yeah, that's true. The bunkers get raked. The greens are super quick, but, you know, without a lot of marks all over the greens. But, you know, whenever you play a course like that, and I'm assuming you played some good ones, too, the worst thing you can be on fast greens is above the hole, right?

It's like one goal is just stay below the hole and have an uphill put. At least that takes some of the drama out of it. Yeah, absolutely. being below the hole is such a key there. And that's another interesting thing, too. At the regular course you play, that might not be a thing. But here, it definitely is. Like, your approach shot into the green

matters so much more than one of those other courses. Exactly. All right. Tell us about PGA Hope. Okay, so PGA Hope, like you said, was the PGA's program to give back to active duty and veterans that have served in the military. the program.

You get six free lessons in a group session. And I think the key part to the, you know, you sound lessons, that's great, right? Everyone gets involved in golf, but the key to it to me is the group part. Golf might be the driver that gets you out there. But then when you're in a group, like the peer support that you're going to get at a PGA Hope session and a lesson, is what really shows how great the game is. Get guys outside of their house instead of sitting in their house, isolated. searching for whatever they're searching for,

fighting through whatever they're fighting through, whether it be mental or physical. Golf now has that opportunity to get you out there with other people in a similar situation that is unlike anything else, in my opinion. So when I transitioned from the Army, I was stop-lost. Back then, your contract had ended,

but based on the needs and movement of the Army, I was still in Iraq, was a little bitter about it, but at the same time I signed up to protect the country is what it is. I get out really fast, transition is difficult. Now with PGAO,

guys have an opportunity to go find other local veterans in their community and experience and go through that, the transition together, essentially. It doesn't mean, but the thing is, it's just not limited to new veterans either.

What makes it so great is you have Vietnam veterans participating in this. I had, luckily on my team this year, my squad, I had Rick Ferguson, Chuck Lewis, and I'll never forget these men and hearing their stories about the transition and the struggles. And this program finally feeling like a welcome home to them is I think maybe the most remarkable thing about PGA Hope.

Tell us your story, being in Iraq and then getting back home and eventually, you know, finding this group and finding golf to be so therapeutic. But take us back to, you know, when you were fighting in Iraq. So I was fighting in Iraq in 2005. We first were over in this area, Bakuba, in the region. It was in the Diyahala province. And I was a 19-Dalpa Cavalry Scout. We were out on the roads doing combat patrols and missions.

Regularly, we'd do multiple missions in a day. Then about six months into that deployment, the transition from the full U.S. Army control, of that area, changed over, and we were one of the first, that region was one of the first regions to give back the, like, day-to-day operations to the Iraqi Army and police forces. They still had some people stay there, but at that point in time, they pushed my unit over to the Anbar Providence, and we were, ended up in Ramadi, Iraq, which during 2005, the end of it when we were there, so when I said I can end, it was, like, July to December,

was one of the most active areas in all of Iraq. There was a lot of combat going on. We were continuing our operation page. How far away was that from Baghdad, just out of curiosity? Oh, right price. I'm not, I'm probably like 50 miles to the west. And while we were there, I was in December. The vehicle I was in was hit by an ID.

The vehicle I was in was a Bradley. We were hit by an anti-tank mine idea, it turns out the, or they estimated it to be. I had a vehicle immediately had a, it was a 32-toned vehicle as well. They had like a hole ripped in it through the underneath where it hit it. At the end of the day, we all survived, thankfully. Starting Campbell and myself were immediately engulfed with gasoline and, or not diesel fuel. And we had burns. and Jason Groves, our medic, he broke his neck in the back.

Our driver, he luckily got out with, I think, probably he ended up having, as they would have it, was like a small burn on his butt, which is kind of funny if you think back at it. Just a variety of the things. That's all he had, just a small burn on his butt. That's a good thing, though. No, it definitely is a great thing. And when we got out of vehicle, I had a broken leg, broken ankle. We were still on plans.

We went to get ourselves out. And there was sewage water there, so we rolled in sewage water because sometimes you just kind of have to do. Wait, say that again. I'm sorry, I missed that. When you got out of it, you went enrolled in what water? Open sewage in the road. Oh, open sewage water. And that's because of burns?

Well, the stop, the drop and roll that you have been taught in school. wasn't working when you're right so that was because the way the fuel had come up when they'd explode on it so you did the sewage water douse the burning did it stop the burning did it stop the burning okay

yes and so then what we were we got into the other vehicle of the convoy and self-age ourselves and medic jason started to great care of us started and got us to our what the

it was our other we're at Camp Corridor and we got Medevac out to a helicopter and a Chinook

you went to Balad anaconda and then from there we went to Germany

for a couple days and then after Germany went to BAMG at Fort in Houston

well Mike you survived obviously and that's incredible but what were your injuries

you received the Purple Heart what were your injuries in total? A broken right ankle, broken right leg, burns, a third-degree burns,

and then second-degree burns. Those were injuries are sustained that day. When you got out of it and you were into that sewage, which obviously, thankfully it was there, right? I mean, that there was,

I mean, the stop, drop, and roll, which we all learned in elementary school when we were kids, it was kind of funny the way you said it, that it doesn't always work. Thank God that you had another solution. But I'm curious during that moment, were there, was there opposition, were there opposition soldiers? Were you still in danger other than your life-threatening injuries with the burns? Were you being fired upon? Was there anything else going on in the moment? I don't remember a lot of that part of it.

Per the report, everyone I spoke with other individuals later, they said we were. I don't necessarily remember that, though, because I did also when I got injured, I was concussed. So, yeah, I'm not sure. Luckily, we all got out. Well, you know, thank God that you did. And, you know, I'm so thankful.

I think everybody is so thankful for your service. to this country and, you know, what so many of you put yourselves through and put on the line over there. So let's get back to the golf. How did you – were you a golfer before Iraq? Oh, yeah, I golfed like when I was in. So, God, I enjoyed it. I golfed when I would say – I want to say like a middle school age frame. then other sports kind of took over in high school.

I got a job. I didn't golf too much during high school. I didn't really golf too much before I joined the Army. It was more like just a recreational type thing. Right. Then when I was in the Army, I think I might have golfed like five times, total in the five and a half years I was in the Army. Just very vaguely not like nothing serious or anything like that.

It is, I think, very therapeutic, whether you're a veteran or not. It can also be incredibly frustrating, right? Like if you are seriously competitive and not very good, it can be an incredibly frustrating experience. But there's so much to the game that's so healthy for everybody. Talk about sort of that therapeutic part of golf and why it could be really an answer for veterans that may be struggling right now. When we were, when I was asked to come a squad leader and go out there,

they asked us to come up with a name or a squad and a model. The name was based off like our last name, so I had Jay. I utilized a weapon system named the javelin. The reason why I utilized that was, and this will tie back in a golf very shortly,

is because the model of the weapon system is firing forget. When you're out there golfing, with ultimate confidence, you should be firing away at the pins and having a good time. All right. But the forget part,

isn't necessarily about forgetting your past, but in golf, it limits the amount of time that you're going to sit there and dwell on the opportunities of your last shot. You only have, between golf, what, like two minutes? You hit a bad shot. Two minutes later, you're up there again, and you have another chance to fire at the pin.

So the entire thought process of it is get up there, keep moving, moving on. Thought process to that in the therapeutic sense is it's helped me compartmentalized events in the past and move past some of them. Do I, am I completely past the events at some of the other events and the event we kind of talked about briefly that happened? No, not at all. I don't know if I ever will be, but at the same time,

it allows me at least to utilize that skill of, you only have two minutes, figure it out, move on in golf to my actual day-to-day life when something might happen that will trigger a response out of me that I'm very upset about or, you know, dwelling back on the past I can't, that I can't change. Yeah, such great advice. Two minutes sometimes, by the way, until your next shot. Sometimes it's much less than two minutes if you barely made contact, and you've got to really put it behind you quickly. All right, how do people in need of something like this find out about it and get involved? So they would have to go to the PGA.com website.

So it's not a PGA tour. PGA Tour and PGA of America are much different entities. But at PGA.com, there's a tab on the front page that says things to do. You click on that. It's center in the top header bar. Things to do. Click that. Then there will be a drop, not a drop down, but a couple options.

PGA Hope is front and center on that. You click on PGA Hope. and all you have to do at that point is type in your zip code and it'll pull up within 200 miles of you a PGA Hope session. It does. I just did it as you were taking me through it. So everybody, if you're interested, PGA.com, top tab, things to do, click on things to do, and then click on PGA Hope.

Thank you for doing this. So glad you're doing well. I'm glad you were in town. You had a nice day to play Monday, right? It was a little bit chilly, but not bad for October. How'd you hit him? How'd you play? A little more firing and a lot more for getting in that round. Good. At the end of day, I didn't play up to my standard that I wanted to play, but I was very grateful for the opportunity. And me and Chris, when we golf together, had a tremendous time and shared a lot of laughs.

So being at the end of the day, sometimes that's maybe more. important than what you score. Totally agree. Mike, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And again, thank you for all of your service. I appreciate it, Kevin. All right. Thanks to Mike. We are done for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.