The Kevin Sheehan Show - A Washington Roster Check

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Kevin today on why the current Commanders' roster may not look as bad to the new group as it does to the fan base. He talked Caitlin Clark's record-breaking night and responded to an e-mailer that pointed a big difference between the arrival of Dan Quinn and Ron Rivera's four years ago. Howard Gutman jumped on to share his thoughts about the last month of Washington hires and a ton more.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. One guest on the show today. We've got Howard Gutman back on the show. It's been a while.

Howard reached out this week to talk. We caught up. And I said, why don't we do this on the podcast later on in the week? So he will be my guest today coming up in the next segment. Of course, Howard, the former ambassador to Belgium during the Obama years, longtime prominent DC attorney, the young accountant at Studio 54 in the late 1970s. Yes, that Studio 54, God, he's had a life Howard Gutman has. And this year, by the way, he's been doing post-game shows on Richmond Radio after Commander's games.

The show, as always, presented by Wind Donation. Wind Donation's happy we've got Howard on the show. Call them at 866-90 Nation or, head to wind donation.com for a free in-home estimate. This from Pat, Pat emailed me and wrote, Kevin, I think I've been on the same ride with you the last decade, from lifelong diehard to being apathetic for the most part over the last five years, to feeling better about things once again. Yesterday, you told Tom that you don't want the team to, quote, win the offseason again,

closed quote. As you've said for years, this team has lived to over promise and under-deliver. Dan Quinn isn't promising anything. In fact, Dan Quinn has only reflected on everything that he learned from what went wrong in Atlanta. Ron Rivera is the one that came in with no time to reflect on what went wrong for him in Carolina, and boasted about his accomplishments with the Panthers. It's a new day, and I don't think we're going to be promised much more than hard work. Thanks, Pat. Look, I didn't say that Dan Quinn was overpromising anything. Didn't say that at all. I just said that there is some optimism. I feel optimistic about what they've done over the last month in hiring Adam Peters and hiring Dan Quinn and hiring on paper what appears to be a pretty

impressive and very experienced coaching staff that I just hope that nobody gets carried away out there with look at what we've done already uh-uh it's the games that count um but no I haven't said that Dan Quinn has promised anything but by the way it's it's a good point about Rivera It's a really good point about Rivera. Actually, one of the reasons that I'm using your email on the show is after reading it, I went and found the Ron Rivera exit press conference in Carolina. Because when you said that Ron came in boasting about his accomplishments in Carolina, I remembered it the same way.

If you don't remember this, and I found it and I'm going to play it for you, It was actually quite remarkable because when Ron got fired by the Panthers after they lost to Washington, by the way, Thanksgiving weekend 2019, Happy Thanksgiving, everybody, they let Ron do an exit press conference from their facilities. That's pretty rare. You fire a coach midseason or even after the season. The next time you hear from that coach is usually, you know, in an interim. with somebody or you read a story where he did an interview with a columnist or a reporter. It's not on their own facility at their team headquarters, but they let Ron do it.

And he was not happy that day. And to your point, Pat, he opened and talked forever about his accomplishments in Carolina. He was pissed off that he'd gotten fired. There was no reflection on anything that had gone wrong or, to his firing. It was about letting the world know that the new owner had messed things up. I'm going to let you listen to just the first two minutes of that press conference from back in November of 2019. Here it is. You know, when I arrived here in 2011, Stephen now we're thrilled for the opportunity. So excited that we wanted to bring home some gear back to San Diego,

but the team was coming off at 2 and 14 season, and you really couldn't find any gear. Interested team had been low But now You walk in a grocery store You can find gear You walk in a grocery store You can see people wearing Luke Kikleys Or Christian McCaffreys or Cam Newton jerseys

And I know I was part of that culture change But he's hard in the NFL And not to be taken lightly I'm proud that I took over a 2-14 team And won back-to-back-to-back NFC division titles South Division titles I want to re-emphasize

I'm proud that I took over a two and 14 team and won back to back to back. See the emphasis? Won? Three in a row. Okay? Whether you define it by wins or losses or you define it by winning the division, to me that's three years in a row of consecutive winning, okay? So I want to make sure we're straight on that.

I get tired of hearing, oh, they couldn't win three years in a row, two years in a row. No, we won three years in a row. So let's get that straight. And we were the first team in the NFC South to do it. So I'm pretty doggone proud of that. Okay. I'm proud to be, I'm proud to have been part of the 2015 NFC championship team that represented the NFC in Super Bowl 50. And I'm proud to leave here the winning this Panthers head coach.

So I don't want to come off as bashing Rivera after he's left town. But that was a really good email, Pat. And great recollection on the differences between Ron four years ago and Dan Quinn now. I had a vague memory that Ron was really. really pissed off about being fired and was boasting about his accomplishments on his way out. And he did a lot of that talking about what he had accomplished in Carolina when he got here. But I think it's interesting that Ron has tried in this hiring cycle to get a job, which he has not as of yet. I think in part, he wants Washington to know that while we may not have been impressed with the job that he did,

the rest of the league knows better. We'll see if he gets a job. It certainly doesn't appear as if he'll get a defensive coordinator position. Who knows, maybe he'll replace Steve Wilkes, who worked for him in San Francisco, and he'll work for Kyle Shanahan. Now, that would be interesting. But Ron's not really the point here,

as much as the point that Pat makes is that Quinn had time to reflect on what went wrong in Atlanta, and appears to be less concerned now, about what people think, about why it didn't work out in Atlanta, and more concerned with trying to learn why he got fired in Atlanta. So, yeah, I think we are getting a more mature, a more evolved head coach in Dan Quinn than we were getting with Ron Rivera. There are big differences between the Rivera and the Quinn hiring altogether,

But that's an interesting one. Thank you, Pat, for that. So ESPN.com today did this look ahead to the NFL season in 2024. They had a panel of their in-house so-called experts making early predictions on next season, things like who's going to win the Super Bowl, who's going to win the MVP, etc. And then there was this question asked to the ESPN panel. name one team coach or player who will break out in the 2024 season. And former NFL GM Mike Tannenbaum, who was on this expert panel, wrote this,

Emmanuel Forbes, cornerback, commanders. After an up and down rookie season, I expect this undersized six-foot 180-pound corner to thrive in coach Dan Quinn's defense. Forbes had one interception and nine pass breakups in 2023, but he had six pick sixes in his final season at Mississippi State. Actually, he had six picks in his final season at Mississippi State. He had six pick sixes for his career, which was an NCAA record. So, you know, you've got all of these breakout candidates, and I was just surprised to see anybody mention Emmanuel Forbes, because in many ways I kind of to feel like we have forgotten about Forbes. And that leads me to this. I had Dan Quinn on the radio

show today. You can hear it if you go to the team 980.com or you can download the Odyssey app. I did like 16 minutes with Dan Quinn on radio today. I enjoyed him. I think he comes off as very genuine, very authentic. I said that after the press conference last week. I think that the personality is completely different than Ron Rivera's. But I wanted you to hear his answer to the last question I asked him. Here it is. Last one. You didn't use the word rebuild the other day. It was recalibrate. Can you win quickly? Well, I think that's what finding all these small margins is about, right? To find an edge here, an edge there. And, you know, what little small margin that you can do. And then collectively, Kevin, what happened is you get better over here and here and here. So the, the, the time.

tighter this team gets, that's when we'll win the fastest. And we'll work hard to do that. The best connected team who are really ready to compete and sharpen one another, that's when we'll get there. And so the faster we can do that, the better we'll play. So I really enjoyed my conversation with Dan Quinn, but, you know, like with the answer you just heard, he didn't give a lot of specificity to, you know, the plan moving forward, nor should he. But I wanted to share with you something that I believe to be true. I think they think they can turn things around quicker than maybe we think. Why? Well, there's the obvious opportunity in free agency with the most available cap space in the league. There are all of the draft picks that

they have. But it's my belief that they believe there's more on this current roster than maybe we think there is. You know, we're influenced by having just witnessed, I think, the worst season in my lifetime in terms of how bad this team was. Four and thirteen, getting crushed week in and week out. Remember, it was just a year ago that many of us, certainly me, I've got my arm raised high in the air, that we thought the roster was as solid as it had been in years, minus the quarterback mystery and offensive line and maybe linebacker to a certain degree. And I think that we may have been convinced after watching this terrible, terrible team this year, that all the players are awful and that this is going to be a complete, full,

tear down. You know, after maybe Terry McClearn, you know, Duran and John, Cosme, Brian Robinson, Jr. You know, many of you would say, that's the list. It's a full tear down after those guys. I don't think so. I think they're looking at a team that last year had a lame duck coach, had an offensive coordinator that had issues with players, with coaches, with the overall approach, and they see a team that had a season just fall apart and snowball so quickly that it just became kind of one of those bad seasons, bad scenes for everybody involved. But while everyone associated with it last year gets lumped into they're all worthless, I don't think that's what this new group is thinking.

I think they think a lot more of a much. larger group of players that are on the roster. Specific to Emmanuel Forbes, I think much of the fan base, first of all, just assumes that Forbes is a major bust. He's a major Ron Rivera, the Marty's bust of a first-round draft pick. But would it surprise me if they looked at Forbes and said, with a more stable situation, with better coaches, with a better scheme, it'll work out for him. Although I am interested in how much man Quinn will play next year versus zone,

because I kind of view Forbes is more of a zone corner. But anyway, this was Joe Witt, Jr. yesterday on coordinator's press conference day when he was asked about Emmanuel Forbes. Here's what he said. You know, I really like Forbes when he came out. And not only Forbes, I like Juan. And, you know, they have a number of guys on that back in that really, really are intriguing. And the thing that we have to do, that's why we brought Jason Simmons in and Tommy Donatel to get those guys in and to believe in the techniques that we're going to teach them and the scheme that we're going to put them in.

But we have quality young players here. We're just ready to get the work with them. Joe Witt Jr. yesterday during his defensive coordinator press conference saying that in Dallas, they liked Forbes. They liked Kwan Martin. Let's not forget about Kwan Martin, their second round pick from last year. He played very well down the stretch. He looks as much as anybody on defense looks like a Dan Quinn player in terms of the traits that they're all looking for. By the way, Kaleek Hudson looks like that also. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. make a guess right now here on February 16th, 2024, some seven months before they play their first regular season game of 2024. God, we've got to wait seven months, a little bit less than seven months. I'm going to make a guess right now that the overhaul of the roster won't be as severe as some of you think it will be, and I'm going to quantify that. I'm going to say that more than half of the 2024 opening day starters are actually on the roster right now.

Is that going out on a limb? I think for some of you, it'll feel like going out on a limb. I guess it is kind of hard to find, you know, if I say more than half, to find some 10 starters in free agency and in the draft in one-off season. But I'm going to give you, I think, 13. 13 players on the roster right now that I think will be starters week one. And if not starters, they're going to be in the rotation. Positional rotation, not special teams.

Offensively. Terry McClorn. Jahan Dotson, yes. Brian Robinson, Jr. Sam Cosme, definitely. Here's one that you're going to perhaps need to sit down to hear me say. Wiley Jr., That's a long shot maybe, but I think they are going to love the competitive streak in Wiley Jr.

I would also say Nick Gates, but I'm not going to include Nick Gates because he was not actually a good player for them as badass a competitor as he is. Wiley Jr. was probably on tape better than we thought he was watching him week in and week out. I'm going to give you one more on offense. Armani Rogers, who was on Injured Reserve, who they had big plans for last year, is going to be a guy that fits in to what Kingsbury is trying to do. So I just gave you Terry Dotson, Robinson, Jr., Cosme, Wiley Jr., and Armani Rogers on offense. That's six. Defensively.

Alan Payne, either K.J. Henry or Andre Jones, Jr., I think both of them showed some. something when they got opportunities. And they've got needs at defensive end. So I'll just say one of those two, Cameron Curl, Derek Forrest, Kwan Martin, and Emmanuel Forbes. All right. Payne Allen, I'll say KJ. Henry, Curl, Forrest, Martin, Forbes. That's seven on defense.

That's 13 of the 22 starters or in the starting rotation, opening day will be our players from the roster right now. All right. Different subject before we get to Howard Gutman. How about last night in Iowa City? Here comes Clark. How will she go for history? In women's college basketball.

That was from 30 plus feet out. That was from the logo at Carver Hawkeye Arena last night. Good God. She can shoot it from distance. I was there last night in front of my TV watching on Peacock, watching Caitlin Clark break the record. I have seen more women's college basketball games this year because of her than I think I have ever watched. I've watched three pretty much start to finish games.

I watched her in College Park on television a couple of weeks ago, sold out crowd. I watched her at Nebraska on Sunday before the Super Bowl, and I watched last night start to finish. I mean, this thing is really starting to cross over into kind of pop culture phenomena, certainly with sports fans that don't watch a lot of women's college basketball. I mean, I'm watching because of her. I think there's no doubt. I've watched more college basketball, women's college basketball,

this year than I've ever watched. That's not true. I had a cousin who played Division I college basketball at Marquette. And between maybe games I went to or watched on TV, I probably saw at least three or four of her games in a given season. But that would be it. That would be it. I mean, this thing is rolling. She has become one of the best watches in sports. Let me just mention a couple of things about watching Caitlin Clark for three full games now, with more to come. First of all, I had no idea what a great passer she was. I had no idea that in addition to leading the country in

scoring, she leads the country in assists too. She is a great passer. She's got incredible vision, feel, you know, two steps ahead anticipation-wise as a passer. I mean, she's an elite passer for basketball. I mean, her offensive basketball IQ is off the chart. But I had no idea until I started to watch. I just thought she was an incredible shooter and scorer, but she is an overall incredible offensive basketball player. She is the perfect example when you say somebody makes everybody on the floor better when she or he is on it.

Everybody on that floor benefits from her presence on the floor because, A, the attention that's given her by the opponent, but because she makes the right plays over and over again. And of course, when she's not passing, man, can she shoot it? She is a really, really good shooter. I mean, she's got everything. She's got, first of all, a quick release, which is important when you're not overly athletic. And she does not have exceptional athleticism.

So she's got a quick release. She's got great form. She's got a great setup. She squares up perfectly, legs, shoulders, everything. Her range is just nuts. She's a good scorer. She's just a great shooter. I mean, I would say she's a very good scorer.

She can score off the dribble, off the drive in traffic. She's got great feel, great hands. But, man, her shooting, and she's got the green light, you know, I'm not a women's basketball officianto by any stretch of the imagination. But I know that there have been some great shooters in women's college basketball. It's one of the things that women have always excelled at in their game. But there's nobody, right? Nobody's ever had her range.

It's like what we first thought when Steph Curry started to pull up from 30 feet regularly, sometimes 35 feet. it was like, huh? Now, we're used to it because of Steph, but it was so unique. This has to be unique in the women's game, right? Pulling up from that distance, she is also incredible at creating space.

Again, you know, when you watch Steph, and Steph is such a great example, because he's not overly big. He's not overly, you know, he's not the best athlete on the floor. He's got great quickness. but the feel in the space of somebody without exceptional athleticism to create space to get off their shot, she's spectacular to watch do it.

She's up there right now in terms of the best watches in sports. I mean, I'm not thinking clearly right now. I mean, Mahomes, obviously, after the Super Bowl, you know, we were saying a few weeks ago, you know, Lamar Jackson, and there are other people, but she's in the conversation of the most enjoyable things to watch in sports right now. And, you know, for a woman in a team sport, I can't think of anybody that rivals her popularity. Did you see the scene in Iowa City? She is a rock star. She is selling out arenas that have never been sold out or even come close to have sold out before.

You know, I think like her startum right now is equivalent to where we've seen Serena, you know, and Steffy, and, you know, back in the day, Martina and Chrissy Everett, et cetera. You know, some Olympic athletes for sure over the years, I guess more recently Katie Ledecki, you know, from the area, Simone Biles. you know, maybe like someone from the Olympic or the national women's soccer team, which had great stars. Mia Hamm, as an example, comes to mind. But man, she is big. And we're going to get more of it

because she's on the verge of breaking Pete Marevich's all-time scoring mark for a career, men's or women. Now, Marevich did it in three seasons. All right, he did it in three seasons without a three-point line because there was freshman ineligibility back then. But there's going to be that night, whatever night she does that, that's going to be a big moment. They play Ohio State at the end of the season. It's the last regular season game.

It'll be for the Big Ten title and a one seed. That game will be nationally televised. And then the women's tournament, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this. But the women's tournament, or specifically the Iowa games in the tournament, might be more anticipated than anything in the men's tournament. Like, I can't think of anything right now that says, I can't wait for the men's tournament. All right.

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Back on the show for the first time in a long time, even though we do talk and we text back and forth, but we have not had Howard Gutman on the show in a while, not since probably at some point during the season or some point late in the season as they started to move towards a big change. But Howard was the post-game host, on Richmond radio with his son Colin on the postgame gut check.

He did that all season this year, talking football, talking X's and O's. But of course, we've known Howard for years now. Howard was the ambassador to Belgium during the Obama years, a longtime prominent D.C. attorney. He's also been a colleague and friends with several people in ownership and been certainly an advisor to people like Mitch Rails. over the years and he joins us right now. Look, I didn't, and I just told you this before we started, I didn't really have an agenda for our conversation today because it's not like we're talking

about the specifics of some investigation of the past or, you know, recent allegations, or even, you know, a patent and trademark, you know, office issue. We're talking football and we're talking about this new ownership group and what they've done since the season ended. So I'll start there. You're following it closely. You know, you have some really, you know, good insight as to how the process has gone along. In one month, we've gotten a new GM and Adam Peters. We've gotten a new head coach in Dan Quinn, a complete coaching staff.

I've referred to it as like phase one is complete. You know, Ron's gone, a new GM coach coordinator staff in. Now we can gear up for free agency. So what have you thought all along as you have observed this about sort of this first phase of the offseason being completed? So, Kevin, like all fans, I sort of held my breath. I was as happy as anybody that Dan Snyer decided London was a really great place to avoid subpoenas and lawsuits. And he sold out to a group of really smart and thoughtful, good judgment and decent men. Josh Harris, Mitch Rales, Mark Ein, Magic Johnson.

But then now this group had to perform. This was going to be their Super Bowl was going to follow the Super Bowl. It was going to be charting the course that went forward. And we were going to learn about their process. We were going to learn about the standing of the team in the eyes of the league. And then we were going to have a result. We were going to have a coaching staff to take us forward. And I held my breath.

There were times when I had doubts. when the media had the doubts, but I have been amazed as I sit here now, having crossed Valentine's Day, how in love I am with our commanders and the process that occurred. So first, what did we learn? By the process, they sounded quiet all year. They were patient. They didn't jump at Ron Rivera when the calls on the talk shows were to fire him. He's a decent man. Nothing was going to change. They had committed to let's see what happened for the year. They kept their pledge. They treat them right. There isn't a harsh word by anybody last year or anybody around the league as to some of the things you might hear, let's say, with the Panthers and their owner. But they weren't doing nothing. We know, in fact, they were figuring out the Kevin Sheehan question.

Who do you get to advise you? That's a question you asked all season. Who do you get to advise you? And there were lots of usual suspects. And in my world, they didn't even get a usual suspect. They got, if you thought about that issue just a little bit better, just a little bit deeper, someone who would have more of a reach with agents wouldn't be regarded as a usual suspect, but would have a reach where you want and as respected.

Bob Myers, Rick Spielman, and a proper representation of the ownership group, making this decision was clearly the best process going in. then we know we have been tired of having a process where very few people are willing to come to Washington. The owners alone in his basement saying, I don't have any friends left, so let me just make this decision. And he picks the guy and announces, lo and behold, we're saved. Or a process where, let's say, we get our first round draft pick because the guy happened to play high school ball at Bullis with the owner's son. I mean, we had seen that process for a long time. here they went for the most respected people in the general manager world.

They had identified Adam Peters. They had identified Alex Hallaby. They had identified Ian Cunningham. These were the people, if you could be attractive to the top candidates, and they would be willing to talk with you, those are the people who'd want to talk with. And then they let the process play out. They didn't judge based on reputation. They actually had the interviews.

in the case of the general manager, the top choice, meaning the initial choice, the one that everyone, all the pundits, all the experts had said should be the person people going after, that person proved to be the top choice when the process was done. He came to the interview. He was eager for the job. He had presentations. He had thought about it. And it was a terrific. And we ended up with the prize on the general manager, which is Adam Peters. Now, when you say the prize, I don't know, you don't know, whether all best of intents,

no matter how it looks on paper, whether we end up 13 and 4 or 4 and 13. None of us can know that, but all you can do is take the efforts in the right way, follow the right processes, and get the results you can be proud of, and then see if the results follow on the field. So they end up with the number one GM. Then, undaunted by the thought that someone wouldn't come here, they put together with the GM leading it, the top prospects. And this wasn't that hard to figure out the list.

On the offensive side of the ball, there were two obvious people for whom all the pundits, all the fans looked at their offenses and said, hey, that looks like a pretty good offense. Maybe they're the next offensive guru. That was Ben Johnson and Bobby Swelwick, Ben Johnson at Detroit, Bobby Swelick at Houston. and so if you're looking to recreate that that Mike McDaniel model in Miami you take a one-year coordinator

and he comes and he renovates your offense and you get you into the playoffs, that kind of model. So they put him on the list. We know that was really about as far as there was because the next two hires from offensive coordinators may be great people. They may be fabulous.

But it was Brian Callahan who had been the Bengals' offensive coordinator, but not calling plays Zach Taylor ran that offense. So your next choice was an offensive coordinator who never really ran an offense or Dave Canales,

who last February, a year ago got hired to replace Byron left which at Tampa and put together the 22nd top ranked offense in the league, whereas Eric Biedemi put together the 23rd ranked offense in the league. I have a feeling if we came back

and said, here's our great new coach. Now, they may be fabulous. They may win the Super Bowl next year. I don't know them as men, but I can tell you I would not have wanted to listen to Sports Talk Radio or podcast if we had hired either the guy who had an 11-month record at the 23rd or never called a play. Right. So that leaves a Slovak and Johnson on defense. Mike McDonnell is from the Ravens again called the Hot Shots one-year kind of guy. And then the best defense, consistent defense in the league, Dan Quinn.

So they had already said, those are the top guys. And unlike the Panthers or unlike the Titans, each of those people said, I'm willing to think about it. So then you've already attracted by the process. You've been able to attract the best people. And then they did the process right. You had to actually begin to go to the interview process. We now know what they saw in Dan Quinn. We got to see it much later at his press conference.

We now have a feeling we know this man, and we understand what a head coach looks like. You would probably, if you were casting it, you would probably cast Dan Quinn. And then the other choices, think about it. We know what happened with Ben Johnson. He may be someday a fabulous head coach. He may, you know, win a Super Bowl as the next Mike McDaniel. By the way, finding that next Mike McDaniel, the key there is to try to separate who's the next Mike McDaniel of Miami versus the next Mike McDaniel.

versus the next Adam Gaze or Nathaniel Hackett, the sort of great coordinator who then blows up and doesn't get anyway. But see, you're trying to figure that out. So your top choice, I think the top choice meaning initial choice of all the pundits and therefore of people looking for would probably have been Ben Johnson. But we know clearly he wasn't right for the job. He didn't believe so. He's still at the stage where he couldn't quite meet with them to say,

The kind of things I would tell my 10-year-old son, if you're not ready to take a job, you listen to them, you're respectful, and you say, look, what you guys are doing in Washington looks fabulous. I think you're going to turn this franchise around. Maybe someday I'd love to be part of it, but I'm still not ready to leave Detroit. I've got to finish things here, but I think also I would be better with another year under my belt. That's sort of the mensch way of handling it. The sort of opposite extreme of that is you send a text saying, never mind. So we got, but then you, Kevin, said we dodged a bullet.

And so for a while I felt okay that we had made the best higher by dodging a bullet. But what you and I have since learned since you're dodging the bullet is we didn't dodge a bullet. We did way better than that. We actually got the person from that list of the hot kind of potential people, who was the best, objectively now, because we now have gotten more information. You tell me who on Bobby Slovak, Ben Johnson, Mike McDaniel, would have gotten Joe Witt being called by Jerry Jones to offer the defensive coordinator slot,

and he says, no, I'm going to Washington. Or John Pagano, who's been a defensive coordinator, or Anthony Wynn was the assistant head coach for the 49ers. Kyle announced he expects the coaching staff to stay intact, and the guy says, no, I'm going to go do the running game for Washington. I mean, there is nobody who has the gravitas somehow between Josh Harris, Dan Quinn, and Adam Peters. We are so sought after.

We'd rather leave the number two favorite for the Super Bowl champion last year at a higher job to take a lower job in D.C. You either got to love government or, like, want to see the Washington Monument or else. something special is here. And so from that, I've concluded something specials here. So I was so encouraged by the process.

I was so encouraged by the attraction of Washington. And then the result, there is a challenge. You have done so well. And by the way, we found out another thing about ownership group. They didn't meddle. It's not like they said,

you want X, but we want Y. I'm delighted there is one higher. It's not a secret that the offensive line coach higher, you know, from Ben Johnson from last year, Bobby Johnson from last year, from the Giants. Bobby Johnson is controversial among the fans.

But you didn't see Josh Harris or Midtrails or Mark Ine questioning that. They've given Adam Peters, now Amper's and Dan Quinn, and now Amperes and Dan Quinn and Cliff Kingsbury and Joe Witt, the tools to do what they need. And the next part of that, the tools to do what they need, they want to bring on an Anthony Huan, or they want to bring on a Brian Johnson.

They want to bring on Ken Norton. We have, I don't know, we have seven, eight, nine people who have been coordinators in the suite. They got the green light because they followed the other critical policy of corporate organization charts, which is succession planning. What people like, you know, pundits and I was saying is go offense on your head coach. Because if you hire a defensive head coach, if you succeed the first year, the offensive coordinator is going to get putt off to be someone else's coach,

and your quarterback's going to have to start over again. Now, that answers an 8 out of 10 on the final exam. The answer that's 10 out of 10 on the final exam is hire the best person, but plan. for the future of success causing people to leave, have that succession planning. So it should be the worst thing in the world that our offense is a bang-up job this year, and next year, Cliff Kingsbury is running the Cowboys or something as the head coach. Behind him, we have Brian Johnson. Behind him, we've got Anthony Lynn.

Behind him, we have, if we want the young guy, we have to meet a Pritchard. I mean, we have succession planning there. So on a scale of, you know, look, I wouldn't come on the show if I had something bad to say. I couldn't look at Mitch or Mark Ein or any of them and say I just blasted you on the show, but I just want to come on the show. But here I come on saying, do you see what just happened? And to me, I'm thrilled. Yeah, I mean, God, you said a lot there.

So let me just start with this. I hope that the succession planning actually, you know, is necessary because they've had, had so much success that they're getting coaches plucked left and right. The truth is with succession planning year and year out, there's a whole new slew of people out there ready to be coordinators who are quarterbacks, coaches, et cetera. But I hear what you're saying. More importantly to me is that they've got experienced coaches on the staff. And your point that Dan Quinn was able to put together this entire staff and perhaps Mike McDonald, and I think you can see it with the staff that he's putting together, or a Ben Johnson probably couldn't was one of the big selling

points of Dan Quinn, which I'll come back to in a moment, because you made me laugh, actually, with just saying, because I thought about it. Maybe not so much Canales because I was actually a bit of a fan of Dave Conallis. And the only reason I was a fan of his is because I listened to Todd Bowles on a show before the season start to say that he had interviewed 14 different offensive coordinator candidates in the offseason to replace Byron. leftwich. And what struck me about it at the time was that he didn't interview Eric Bienemy out of the 14 that he interviewed. But he just went on and on about Canales. So I kind of kept

up to speed with how he was developing Baker Mayfield and he had done the same with Gino Smith the year before in Seattle. Also, I'd mention that Bobby Johnson for, and I think when you say our fans are going nuts over it, look, there's the Twitter fans, which I try not to pay attention to, although they make for good content when I can read a good tweet or a good email from them. But Bobby Johnson also coached the Giants offensive line in 2022 when they did really well, went to the playoffs and won a playoff game, and was the O-line coach for the Bills from 2019 to 2021. I think sometimes we get wrapped up into, oh my God, the last game or the last place he was. The Giants were the most injured team in the league.

on their offensive line this year. That's what started, you know, their season into great decline. And by the way, got quarterbacks hurt all over the place. But when you said, when you said, imagine if they had hired Brian Callahan who had never called plays. If they had done that, people would have been begging for Dan Quinn. That was funny. So you said there were times during this process, which I'm guessing you're referring. to really the last month since the season ended when you had doubts.

So tell me about the moments that you had doubts, although you said something about more it being media that was creating doubts. So I rolled with Twitter. I rolled with the shows. I do a lot of serious work. So I've got podcasts. I hear you every day. I hear Galdi.

I hear, and I'm rolling with it. And it looks easy to me. Adam Peters is the number one guy. and you blow them away at the interview. That's simple. Then everyone, you know, has the coronation of Ben Johnson, and then you find out, wait a minute, that guy's texting on the plane, and then you lost McDonald's.

Well, then you get, oh, oh, I hope this Quinn is as good as I think. I see that he had the top five defense. But here's a couple of things I learned. Seattle is a vastly different place than Washington. And if we had had the Seattle coaching staff, again, your lines would have been burning up with people screaming. So I understand a youth movement. McDonald's a one-year defensive coordinator.

His offensive coronator, Ryan Grubb, is three years removed from Sioux Falls, coaching at Sioux Falls. And then their offensive line coach, you think Bobby Johnson, their offensive line coach was the University of Washington offensive line coach. So they basically, people were up in arm. when Ron Rivera imported the Carolina Panser's staff to run our team, Seattle took McDonald and imported the University of Washington staff that was on their way to Alabama and said,

please turn north and go to the pros. Maybe it'll work. Maybe if nobody's over 40 years old and nobody's ever coached a pro player, maybe that works. That would not have worked here. Now, John Schneider's a brilliant GM. I'm never going to question him. but right time, right place, that, that, that way.

And that's where McDonald has to be because you can't be Joe Witt and John Pagano and Anthony Lynn and Cliff Kingsbury and Brian Johnson and Ken Norton and join Mike McDonald's staff. That's not going to, that's not going to work. You're neither of the uncle, you know, some of the, when, when Mike McDaniel took over in Miami, he got what's the guy who just became the defense of Van Gio. So Vic Fangio said, oh, you're a nice kid, you went to Yale, you're pretty funny, let me run your defense, that's fine.

But these other people, that wasn't going to work. He had to fill McDonald, had to fill his slots in Seattle with that kind of upcoming movement. And I don't think that, to me, I look at our staff. I don't know who's going to have the better record. I don't know who's going to have the better talent. I don't know who's going to have the better coaching staff. but this is the one that that's the one where you've got you've got Nathaniel Hackett's at Amgay

somewhere on those staffs. But anyway, Ben Johnson blew up and the best I felt for a day is we had dodged a bullet because the guy wasn't ready. Bobby Swelick wasn't ready. He knew he wasn't ready. We had dodged a bullet. But usually I don't say,

boy, we got the greatest general manager. And on the coaching guy, we dodged the bullet. That's not really like Zibbidi-Doo. but in fact what it turned out when we got to meet them and we understand what it's made of and then we didn't have to judge I don't know anything the listeners don't know

anything you know who knows something Anthony Lynn and Brian Johnson Ken Norton these people said I want to go do what's happening in Washington they took lesser jobs so the market has spoken and I've got to say I'll get attacked

on Twitter endlessly I don't know if there's a better coaching staff in football Of course, the better ones, the better ones, hold on here. Let's just, let's watch, let's see them at least play a coach a couple of games together. I have the aspect that we don't know how it's going to come out. I know. But what made, what made San Francisco so great?

They had Kyle. By the way, Kyle started his coaching, oh and nine. Yeah. His first nine games. His third season, he was four and 13. Yeah. His third season, he was equally bad. The other thing I've learned.

the reason second marriages work so much better than first marriages is you've learned by your mistakes. So when do you want Anthony Lynn?

When do you want Cliff Kingsbury? When do you want Brian Johnson? When do you want Dan Quinn? You don't want to be that first matchup

in Atlanta. You want it after he did average. He's not wasn't, you know, an average wreck in Atlanta,

got three years in Dallas to shine again saying, I ask myself every day when I got my next chance, when I get my next chance, you got him hungry. So Kyle is a much better coach second time around than he was when he started this thing. And so we got the right people at the right point in their career. I didn't know it.

I wasn't smart enough to advise this stuff, but I'm just sitting back and watching it and seeing it. No, I am definitely more optimistic about everything. And even after yesterday, even though Kingsbury didn't say a lot, I actually liked a lot of what he said. But let me just mention as it relates to, you know, the dodging of the bullet with Ben Johnson. The reason that I emphasize that so much, and I think you know this, is because I knew three weeks before they hired him that they love Dan Quinn. And what really What I don't want to hear from down the road is for whatever reason there are people

and a lot of them listen to the show who are like She and they settled. They got a retread. They got their fifth choice. They got their third choice. No, they didn't. They got a guy that they actually really liked from day one. And we don't know if it'll work out.

Here's the thing. I mean, you've already said it, and I've said it over and over again. All of these, this process, which I agree with you, I have been impressed by, and I'm impressed by the results so far. It doesn't guarantee anything, you know, moving forward. But I guess the dodging the bullet was for all of those people that think that Ben Johnson turned him down and this guy turned him down and this guy turned. That's not what happened. I think you know this.

We haven't talked about this necessarily. but I think for those that are going to come back three years from now, if it doesn't work out and say, well, that's what happens when you get your ninth choice. You know, it'll be wrong then just as much as it's wrong now. This group was looking for, and they told us this, when they introduced Adam Peters, they were looking for a leader of men. We now know that even if they had met with Ben Johnson, if he had done the right thing, as you suggested, which I completely agree with you.

I would hope that most of you listening would tell your sons and daughters, you don't text somebody when they're coming to meet with you and they're on the plane and say, no. You handled it the way Howard said you handled it to handle it, which is to sit down with them and say, I think so

highly of you, I am so appreciative of this opportunity. I've been, by the way, rather busy as we've been trying to make the Super Bowl and I've been preparing for the biggest games in the history of this organization, I just really, I hope it's a reflection of some self-awareness. I don't think I'm ready right now, but I so appreciate it.

He didn't do it that way. I think they would have ended up sitting down with him had he taken that meeting and recognized that. I actually, Dan would have hired him because everybody would have thought that he should have hired him. But they would have probably, I would hope, sat down with him, interviewed him and saw. Yeah, this guy isn't necessarily right now anyway. cut out to be the leader that we want. But I know I have beat this a bit too much over the last couple of weeks, in part because you get pushback from some people on a daily basis saying,

you know, why are you so impressed with Dan Quinn? Well, it was only the press conference, but more importantly, I know that they got a guy that they really, really liked. And then just went through the rest of the process. The timing of the process, people, part of why they waited to hire him. They wanted to go through this process. You know who told us they would be meticulous and thorough and cross-tees and dot eyes? Howard Gutman told us that last July. He knew Mitch Rails and he knew Josh Harris through Mitch Rails or knew about him and said,

this is the way they're going to conduct business. It's not going to be done impulsively. So as far as the process goes, yeah, I didn't have a problem with any of it. And actually, I feel much better about the results after hearing from some of these people, including, by the way, the two coordinators, Kingsbury in particular. Totally. So, Kevin, first of all, I love the retread line, and you look for every similarity. I mean, if I guess, if there's anyone who grew up in Queens lived in Washington, lived in Washington, D.C. was a lawyer. You could make me a retread of four billion people. But if you, if you You've listened to Ron Rivera, who, by the way, Doc Walker was on fire on your show yesterday. He named him the under-tition, right?

The mortician. The mortician. Yeah. Right. Mortician. You listen to the mortician, and you listen to Dan Quinn, you know, if there's retreaded, I don't ever need new tires. Keep retreaded me because, Dan, there's just no similarity in those two and where they were

in their career and who they are and their personality. And that's what the Adam, the Josh Harris group would have seen in that first Zoom interview and in the second interview and in continuing to say this guy's really special. But then you listen yesterday. So Joe Witt, who was, I had no idea. No one ever told us. And I don't think you knew that Doc Walker had a long lost brother at birth. But Joe Witt yesterday. Right?

Yeah. No, he was, he was entertaining, for sure. But he all says that same spirit, Doc. We're going to hit you violently. Yeah, yeah, right, violently. And it doesn't matter whether we're 3, 4, 4, 3, ultimately there's, you know, there's 11 of them, 11 of us, and we're going to smack you harder. He is just, he is in the Doc Walker School of coaching.

But what he said is, um, Dan Quinn wrote handwritten notes. Yeah. Um, his kids and then, and then, and then, Michael Parsons do a tape to help instruct his kid now, now Joe Witt wasn't his boss. Joe Witt worked for him on his staff. And yet, Michael Parsons, look, you know, it's like, can you imagine being the kid,

all right, I think I figured out how to handle this move. Michael Parsons did a tutorial for me. Yeah, right. And that's who Dan Quinn is. Yeah. That's who Dan, like, Washington cannot shower this guy. He is the same kind of roots. I'm going to get killed for putting this name invoked.

together. I'm not saying he is. Do not quote me that he is, but that same fabric of a coach as Joe Gibbs was. He is that guy. He is the person. He's mature. He's thoughtful. He's caring. And that's what they saw. And then yesterday, the other big sigh of relief for the people looking for that, you know, next great genius on offense, Cliff Kingsbury offers that. But the rest of us sit there and say, air raid, isn't that out? This isn't West Coast. This isn't. This and Kyle hasn't blessed it. And Kingsbury yesterday said air raid, well, look at who my quarterbacks were. But no, in this league you run the ball.

And I think you put all of us, you know, calm this all down. But you've got to be able. And then let's say the other thing. We know so much about the number two picker. We know so much about the number two picks. Yeah, right. We got all the answers. Just ask us.

No, right. Well, here's what we know. The last time we picked the quarterback, literally the owner's, said, I went to Bullis Games and this guy's really good. We now know we're going to have Adam Peters sitting with Cliff Kingsbury, sitting with Anthony Lynn, sitting with Brian Johnson, sitting with Tevita Pritchard. So we will have more information about the quarterbacks than anybody, who are the quarterbacks are available than anybody, and we'll have more judgment, education, maturity, thoughtfulness

in the room than anybody. So we don't know who's going to be he's sure and who's going to be Gus Farrat. We can't know that. But what we do know is... So we end up with something better than both of them. There you go. But what we do know is the process will have been made by getting the best people working together, pulling in the same direction for the best results for this team in the room.

And therefore, if they trade down, it's because they knew about the quarterback's that we didn't. If they took Drake May or Jane Daniels or they traded up, it's because of their assessment of the corporate, not because of, you know, Joe from Rockville and Howard from Silver Spring and it's because

or who the fans want, it's because the best and the brightest and most experienced and closest to it made a judgment. And that's all any of the fans could ask for. We'll be perfect in our analysis five years from now. You know, one thing, too, just

about the difference between, you know, it's funny because this morning I had Quinn on the radio show for the first time. He was great. He seems like just such a guy's guy. Everybody that I've talked to that has any affiliation with anybody that knows him swears by him. But beyond that, the biggest difference between Dan Quinn and Ron Rivera is Dan Quinn's not coming to an organization run by Dan Snyder. And the second big difference is that Dan Quinn's not coming here to run essentially the franchise and be the final call on everything. He's coming here to coach the team.

I still do have some, you know, feelings for Ron Rivera's plight here. He came into a toxic organization to begin with, but it was so much more than that when he got here. not to mention he had, you know, he had cancer and he had to deal with essentially being carried in and out of the building for six months to do his job. But yeah, no, it's such a, I hate to use the word lazy that seems to be the way so many people describe it. But it's just so inaccurate to describe Ron Rivera and Dan Quinn as similar in any other way other than they were both defensive head coaches in the league that took NFC South teams to Super Bowl. So, quarterback, let's continue with that conversation. And we'll do it with Howard Gutman right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by MyBooky.

Go to MyBooky.orgie. If you use my promo code, Kevin D.C., MyBooky will give you a cash bonus on your initial deposit. You've got to use my promo code as state. Kevin D.C. If there's something already written in the promo code section, erase it, write Kevin D.C. And my bookie will take care of you with a cash bonus on your initial deposit. We continue with Howard Gutman, quarterback, Howard, quarterback. It's all about the quarterback. I want your hunch on quarterback here in a moment, but let me set it up first. From my standpoint, I don't have a clue what they're going to do.

do because I don't think there are any tells out there. Even if you, you know, dig into Kingsbury's past and Quinn's past and Adam Peters passed and, you know, anybody else that's going to be involved in this decision, I think it's, you know, it's just a guess right now as to what they'll do. The only thing I feel confident in saying is I don't believe the quarterback of the future is on the roster right now. I think that quarterback is a priority and they're going to look to add that quarterback that's going to be, you know, potentially the quarterback for the next many, many years in this offseason. But it's, you know, I'm not saying that we've had clues in the past at this point in the

off season. I mean, we didn't know about the Matt Stafford interest until, you know, after the fact. We didn't really know that much about the Russell Wilson interest until after the fact. but let me turn it over to you. Do you have any thoughts on what they might be thinking as it relates to quarterback? I'm going to disagree only to one extent, which is I think everything would be on the table, including Sam Howell. I don't know what they would think. So we know Cliff Kingsbury knows Caleb Williams better than anybody who worked with him all last year. We don't know what he thinks about.

Exactly. I mean, I work with lots of people. Half of them, I think, I hope I never do it again. The other half I can't wait to see the next day. We don't know whether he thinks he is dedicated, hardworking, smart, or arrogant, and already spoiled. We have no idea. But I can tell you that they know what they're looking for. And I think the possibilities are draft someone.

sign, there's Baker Mayfield, there's your son, there's you know, there's lots of people in the, Kirk is in there, there's lots of people available, and then there's what you've got now. And I think,

I think they are brave enough that if they said each of these corebacks is flawed, you know, we've had, we've had lots of drafts where only the first choice was good. San Francisco, let's put to it, Adam Peters, I think the best thing to know about Adam Peters is his major mistakes.

He participated on the worst early draft pick in history. Number two, that was Trey Lance. Turned out they trade, number three, they traded up when there was only one quarterback worth having in the draft the first pick. And if they were picking between Matt Jones and Trey Lance, the answer after number one there was none of the above. And so that was a mistake. And he later said, we made that mistake.

I think he said because we doesn't call it a mistake, but because we didn't have a clear plan at the time we moved up. We just knew we wanted one of them. You can't do that. You've got to make the decision where you're going and how. He also drafted Salman Thomas and Ruben Foster in that early draft, two number ones that went nowhere. And so again, I'd rather have the second marriage. If I had a lot, I'm on my first and I'm going to die on my first, it's 40-something years. but the reason the second marriage works for it is you learn by your mistakes.

And that's the best thing, Adam Peters. You learn by your successes. But if all you've ever done is picked Devo Samuels and everyone patted you on the back, you're going to crash at some point. You've got to know where the pitfalls are and Adam Pierce is there. He will lead that team. It's general manager led. He'll take the input.

It's collaborative, I can see from this team. But it's not going to be consensus. Collaborative and consensus is a difference. Not going to be show a hands five to four. It's going to be listened to everyone, take it in, but there's a clear pecking order. That's how it should be. And they will then, on the basis of as much information and get it right. Now, if they think that, and to me, the Pritchard knows Sam as well as anybody,

if they think the problem was, you know, he was misused, we passed way too much, he got gun shy, then he worked totally to lower the sack. Once you work to lower the sacks, you're going to increase your interceptions. That might be there. I just, I wouldn't, Vegas is crazy at this point if they're setting odds on anything because we just can't know about the quarterback. I think they're going to explore, are exploring the full length of everything, trading up, trading back, staying and picking, signing a veteran. and I think whatever they decide, I'm not going to let, you know, Joe from Tacoma Park influenced me because I know Adam from Ashburn made the decision. Yeah, I think that's, you know, I'm in benefit of doubt mode.

Now, we've at least watched the players that will be available and be signed in free agency. We've at least, you know, many will just watch highlight reels, but many of us have watched. A lot of these players that will get drafted, especially in the early rounds, will have opinions, but I will still be in benefit of the doubt till at least they start playing some games. I'm going to go back for just a moment, because there was something that I wanted to ask you that I forgot. The tie to Bob Myers was obvious. That was, you know, NBA to NBA with Josh Harris in the NBA. Who in ownership or who helped, you know, sort of secure Spielman, Rick Spielman, for the search committee.

Do you know? Well, I know there was lots of people were consulted for input as to who and where, you know, who might be and where, and they listen and thoughtful and talk to people. But I think it wasn't just, hey, I know this guy Bob Myers from the NBA. Bob Bob Myers is a major figure in the sports world. If you know the agents, if you know the players,

he can call owners, he can call agents, he can, and so once you said, I want a guy who's really experienced in football, you've already narrowed that funnel a great deal. Once you said, and then it wouldn't hurt that

the more you learn about him, the more of the connections to Adam Peters, to at least, That doesn't mean it's going to get you there. It doesn't mean Amper is going to pass. Amperes could turn out to be the Ben Johnson general managers in the interviews. But it did have a good connection. And then it's a personality and a fit, an ability to collaborate.

And when I started looking at these guys, there's some of the people in the names, they have on their resume. I participate in four of the last six head coaching searches. I always took that to me, and you were getting his number. number five choice because the top four of Raven hired by other clubs. So I didn't think you could get retreads on the advisory committee. I just wouldn't be smart enough to tell you who else there is, but they got a lot of input. You know, these are pretty accomplished businessman with far-reaching antenna. It isn't like Dan who, you know, basically with friends with the people who work

for him. They are accomplished in private equity. They're accomplished in business. They're accomplished in art. And they sure have tentacles all over the place in sports, from hockey to basketball to European football. And so,

it comes around, and I'm sure they consider a bunch of people, but they did it. Here's the most other amazing thing. It didn't leak. The day they were announced, either they did it in 12 seconds, which, believe me they didn't, or it didn't leak. The organization, the ownership group, is run like professionals on a business.

Yeah, I mean, compared to the old group, it was harder to get information, that's for sure. By the way, your advice wouldn't have been to just pick up the phone and call Mike Shanahan. Would it have been? Look, I love your partner, but I was going nuts when I was listening to those shows. How do you get, that's a no-good deed, get some punitive. is a picture of Tommy Lambast him for being thoughtful and reaching out to that. Why? If you didn't want wasting their time or their money, it's like Kevin, do you want more possessions

or less possessions? Would you like Bob Myers' contacts and input or would not? That one's a yes. I would like that. Do you like the guy who's best connected to the guy you hope will be, will live up to the buildings when you meet him? Yep, I'd rather have more of those connections. And is Spielman partly because of Detroit, perhaps?

And it just shows the difference. Spielman, I'm sure, was no different than the rest on the Ben Johnson affair. But if you're leaning that way, it's something to look at. But they obviously got the first tier of candidates. They didn't do the Callahan level of interview. They didn't have anything forced on them in the press that they had hired interim coach. And then he got so popular with the players that you had no choice. They did a thoughtful, careful search.

They kept it to the end. They didn't jump. They didn't get scared. And they picked the best person I got. And we've seen the results in the last few days with getting to meet these guys. Yeah, I think one of my favorite people in my life, Tommy, is of the opinion. I think he's missing. Because as you were talking, I was kind of thinking of it this way.

This is a group that's running it more like a corporation, like a business. whereas we had basically a guy that was running a lemonade stand and because he didn't know anybody and didn't care to know anybody and anybody that knew him didn't like him. So it's just a different way to do it. All right. So right now we are optimistic. We're leaning optimistic.

How couldn't you be at least optimistic from this? standpoint, people. It's not Dan. Like, I think sometimes we keep forgetting, my God, we're finally where we've wanted and begged to be for years. Going into a season without Dan Snyder is the owner. I don't count last season because of when they took over the football team. They weren't able to put their, you know, put their fingerprints on it. This is the first time in 25 years, we're going to go into a season with different people other than Dan Snyder making the decisions about the people that are making the biggest football calls. And I'm looking forward to that.

I didn't think that he'd ever get it right. So we've got to give this group a chance. What else do you want to say? So I just think the decision-making going forward, we should hope it will be done. People empower them, give them the resource they need, whether that's on the new stadium. That's not going to be on personality or anger or, you know, backroom dealings. It's going to be done professionally there. Branding, again, all of that stuff will be done on the facts and on, you know, what will serve the washing community best.

And hopefully then we'll be rewarding them by having our state. filled with true commandant's fans, because I'm now in the press box with the postgame show, by the way, having nothing to do with my connections to this group. I had to seek permission after I got offered it by Odyssey for my political talk show. But I'm in the press box where you don't hear the visiting fans who have taken over your stadium, but I, for one, am sick of that, and hopefully behind this team and behind results will prove to get back the old feeling we had. for teams for decades.

All right. Last question. After a year of being behind the mic on a post-game show, and you've done a political talk show, and you've done, you know, you've been an actor. You've had so many, you are truly one of the most eclectic people from an experience standpoint professionally. You've been an ambassador. You've been a big-time attorney. You worked at Studio 54. You were essentially the accountant when you were at Columbia for Steve Rubel and Steve Rebell and Ian Schrager for crying out loud. These were the people that you were working for. So what is the most interesting job that Howard Gutman's ever had? Not the most important, the most interesting.

I got to say, right. I got to say it's still the U.S. ambassador to Belgium. there really is nothing like understanding the feelings for America and the, first of all, the sense of obligation and duty, you're actually doing something, you're actually changing, you know, helping to hopefully change the world for the better, whether it's seeking surge troops for Afghanistan or to get, you know, the Europeans to meet the 2% level on NATO spending. There really is something there, but there also is to meet the Belgians who view America,

they still remember Americans as freeing them in World War II. That, you know, that is going to always be special. But look, I have been blessed from being the son of an illegal immigrant in Queens. The first time I walked up the steps at the Supreme Court to go clerk for O'Connor and Stewart, I was tingling. You know, I was a special assistant to the director of the FBI for counterintelligence and counterterrorism. And, you know, when you're in that room with the director of the FBI, I, you know, on national security, I was tingling when Ruth Bair Ginsburg swore me in at the Belgian ambassador.

But you never want to get to the position in your life, Kevin, when you say, I used to be Howard Gutman. So I am still hoping the best is yet to come. There you go. I mean, I just thought, you know, hanging out with Mick Jagger and Andy Warhol at Studio 54 in the late 70s would have been a pretty good job and pretty memorable. Go ahead. Watching Steve Rebell throw up because he was so looted out and getting his, and getting him into a taxi for a 16 and an 18-year-old, luckily it didn't scar me for life.

And you got to remember at the time, we didn't know how, you know, he'd be the Steve Rebell history. I was living it by the moment. I was 16 years old. My father had just died. I took my bicycle to the only restaurant that was being built in the neighborhood. And there was this little guy who was his second restaurant. graduated Syracuse, and

you know, within five years, he was the most famous person around the world for sex drugs and rock and roll, and I was still a nerd from Queens, New York, but he depended on me, and I depend on him, so it was a great launch experience, but again, I'll still take that

swearing in by Ruth Payer Ginsburg. Always great to catch up, always enjoy it. I hope you're well. Let's do it again soon. All the best, Kevin. Thanks so much. Always great to catch up. up with Howard Gutman. Done for the day.

Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the snow tonight and early tomorrow morning. Back on Monday.