The Kevin Sheehan Show - Aiyuk's Olive Branch?

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Kevin opened with reaction to Brandon Aiyuk's new video and the two videos from last week that were deleted. Some NFL observers believe this was an Aiyuk olive branch extended to the 49ers. Kevin recapped the NBA Finals and had plenty on Victor Wembanyama's last few weeks. ESPN Senior NBA Writer Tim Bontemps jumped on to talk NBA Finals and project what the Wizards will do in next week's NBA Draft. Mark Zuckerman joined Kevin to talk about another series win for the Nats.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match   Chime is not just smarter banking, it is the most rewarding way to bank. Head to www.Chime.com/SHEEHAN. It only takes a few minutes to sign up.     Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. He is Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today. Tim Bond temps, the ESPN senior NBA writer, will join me to talk about the Knicks winning the title over the weekend. Also, to discuss what the Wizards might do a week from tomorrow night when the NBA draft commences.

Following Tim, Mark Zucker, will jump on to talk Nats. The Nats took another series over the weekend. That's five out of the last six for them. They are two games above 500 after taking two of three at home over the Mariners. The show's presenting sponsor is always Window Nation. If you need new windows, I highly recommend giving Windonation a shot. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to WindowNation.com.

mention my name, and they will take really good care of you. I'll get to my thoughts on the NBA championship concluding Saturday night coming up here shortly, but this from Danny to kick off the show, Danny writes Kevin, I'm pretty sure you're going to be wrong about Brandon Ayuk. He's clearly a cuckoo bird, and teams see it and will pass on him. I would be extremely disappointed if the commanders signed him. He's destroyed whatever decent reputation he might have had once with all of this mental weirdness, immaturity, and unprofessionalism. He's not worth it, and teams will see it.

If he plays, it'll be for a loser organization like we used to be, and like the Browns, Jets, and Raiders are right now. Mark it down, Shadur Sanders to Brandon Ayyuk for three total touchdowns. in the next season. Thank you for that, Danny. Iyuk posted another video over the weekend. This one was weird. He also deleted two videos from last week, the videos in which he ripped the 49ers calling them stupid, calling them dumb, saying that the belt was coming for them. Several NFL observers actually chimed in on the deletion of the two videos from last week, saying that they believe it may be an olive branch extended to the Niners, and that the latest video, which has him dancing around in a robe, like a robot with

boxer shorts on, is an indication that this may be coming to an end. So the combination, some NFL observers believe of the two deleted videos and this video in which he's jumping around in a robe, I guess it was dancing to some rap song, with by the way the caption, quote, coming to an end zone near you, closed quote, they think that this might be an indication that this could be coming to an end soon. We'll see. The latest video is another one, honestly, that normal. thinking people, normal thinking adults would probably be concerned about, specifically concerned for his current mental condition. You know, it's not nuts to think that this guy needs some help. At the very least, he needs an adult in his life that can steer him in a direction that makes

people believe that he's actually a sane person. The latest video is not about him being healthy. It's not about his knee being in great shape. It's not about his desire to play football again, his want to to play football again, his readiness to play football again. None of these social media videos or posts have been really about that. Maybe that video is coming soon. Danny, you might be right when you say that I'm going to be wrong about Brandon Iyke playing football this year that teams are going to see how kuku he is and they're going to pass on him. I'm still betting, however, that he's on a roster in September. And I think Washington's still in the mix.

Because if they weren't in the mix, I think we would know by now. I kind of think that they just want the attention off of them as it relates to IUC. And they would have leaked something to Schefter or to Rapaport or some other credible NFL reporter that if, you know, he gets released or when he gets released, because I do think it's inevitable, that they wouldn't be interested in signing him. But we haven't heard that. Now, not hearing that, not reading that at this point doesn't necessarily mean that they will sign him when he gets released. But I do think it means at the very least, they're interested in kicking the tires on Brandon Ayyuk when he does get.

released. And kicking the tires means, you know, first of all, sitting down with him face to face and finding out what kind of shape he's in. Physically, mentally, does he still desire to play football? Does he want to play football? Is it still important to him? Finding out exactly what happened. And then, of course, the medical evaluations of not only the knee, but a psychological workup on this guy would probably be necessary. I think the team at the very least is interested in doing that. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that since we haven't heard anything that would rule them out, and most NFL observers and reporters believe Washington would be in on

Brandon Ayuk, that we can't rule them out, that they are in the mix. In the meantime, the so-called olive branch of deleting videos, if that doesn't work, Ayuk's going to have to figure out how to force the hand of the 49ers and get them to release him. And I had a guy on radio with me on Friday, his name's Grant Cohn. He's covered the 49ers for a long period of time for Sports Illustrated. and he actually revealed something to me that I did not know. The IUC situation as of now is he's been on the reserved left squad list for now like 8, 9, 10 months, something like that. And Cohn told me on the radio show Friday that IUC needs to be reinstated off of that list before anything can happen.

It was an interesting reveal for me because I think over the last couple of weeks, we've just talked about, why didn't he show up at OTAs? All he had to do was show up and he could have been a distraction or a disruption and they would have just said, to hell with you will cut you. But apparently it's not that easy. Here's what Grant Cohn told me on Friday. Why didn't he just show up for OTAs and force their hand? Yeah, you know, it's not that simple. he needs to file for reinstatement with the league.

He needs to send a letter to the league and to the 49ers officially filing for re-again to show up. And the Niners don't necessarily have to reinstate him. Like there's going to be a negotiation and he might have to give back some of his bonus money. And I mean, maybe he doesn't want to do that. Maybe he feels like it's all another humiliation that he has to go back to them and bend the knee. And he would maybe rather not do that and keep his money than play football again. I really don't. I feel like Brandon's not acting rationally. He's making a lot of very emotional decisions, which you're not supposed to do in life.

And he's going to look back on this in 10 to 15 years and regret it. Grant Cohn from my radio show on Friday. I thought it was an interesting reveal because I think the assumption was he just needs to show up. Well, apparently not. He needs to be reinstated. The 49ers will have a hand in that. Maybe it's going to lead to another negotiation where he's got to give some money back. until he's off that list, they can't release him, it sounds like.

And to get off that list, he needs to be reinstated. So whatever the process is, he's got to begin that process. He's got to prove to the rest of the league or anybody that he's interested in playing for, that he's interested in playing. And to do that, whatever steps are necessary, he's got to begin those steps. and he's got to show up for that first day of training camp off that list and ready to play football so that they can release him. Yeah, and remember this too,

because this was what we learned from Mike Genetti at SpotTrack, and that is that they don't have anything that they have to pay to him until September 1st. Now, if he's still on that list September 1st, maybe they don't have to pay him anything on September 1st. Maybe he has to be off that list by September 1st because I guess the possibility exists. This could go into next year. And if he doesn't do what he needs to do to be reinstated to force the 49ers hand,

then it may just stay as status quo where he's on this list. He's not getting paid. He's not playing football. He's got to prove to people that he's interested in playing football. By the way, there was one more part to my interview with this guy, Grant, on Friday, that I wanted to play for all of you, because this is a guy that's covered the 49ers. He knows Brandon Ayyuk. He's actually sympathetic to Brandon Ayuk, even though he knows right now. He's not making very good decisions.

He was more anti-49ers, anti-Kyle. he actually did a really good job of sort of going through chronologically what happened, even though there are some, you know, holes in terms of him not knowing specifically what happened, more just guessing on what happened. One of the things he mentioned to me, by the way, which I thought was, if it's true, not a great look for the 49ers. And that is, after his devastating knee injury in 2024, while he was, you know, hurt in the weeks after he got hurt, they tried to trade him.

And really, Grant had said to me that this was a mixed bag of feelings within the organization about whether or not to give him the contract they gave him. But that Kyle was actually the one that wanted to give him the contract. Anyway, this thing has gone in a bad direction for a number of reasons. And Grant did not take Ayyuk off the hook for the whole thing. He did not blame just the Niners. He made them both culpable for where they are right now. But I did ask him at the very end of our conversation because he's a fan of the player,

Brandon Ayuk. As I was, and I think many of you know this, that at the end of 2023, I really felt like he was on the verge of becoming one of the best, receivers in the league. And so I did ask him, if he were a Washington fan, what would he want to see happen, given his understanding of Brandon Ayuk and the kind of player he is? Here's what he said. If you were a fan of this team here, what would you want to see happen?

Would you be out? Would the behavior be disqualifying or would you still be interested? I'd be interested. I mean, I'd be interested. Look at how Javon Kinlaw has flourished in Washington. He came from the minors. He never was good. He didn't really fit in.

He had knee issues. Now he's like one of the leads, always being interviewed over there. It seems like he's doing pretty well. It seems like he flourishes in that locker room. I think Iyuk would be so happy and grateful to play with Jaden Daniels. And I think if you get a motivated and happy, Iyke, which only one team in the league could get,

and that's Washington Commanders, you have a chance to get a top 10 wide receiver, a guy who's better than Terry McCorn, way better than Debo Samuel. So, yeah, I think you guys should be all over it. I think he's going to play for you eventually. I think a lot of people believe what Grant believes, and that is that Brandon Ayuk will eventually play for Washington. With each passing video, though, it becomes more off-putting to think about somebody like him,

or at least the person right now that he is or the state that he's in, playing for an organization that had so many issues for so long and now has a really solid locker room and culture football-wise for sure. But he's a talent, and there's no doubt that if you ended up getting that player from 23 and he was motivated and some of the behavior could be explained and you could get him on a no risk deal all incentivized with a low base salary. I still think that he'd help a lot if all of those things were true in the way it evolved. We'll see. Time will tell. Meantime, Stefan Diggs did an interview with Channel 5 locally over the weekend. He's still out there. And by the way,

on Friday, Stefan Diggs was cleared of any personal conduct policy violation. The league looked into the charges that were levied against him, which he went to court and beat. He was found not guilty on the strangulation charge, on the misdemeanor. misdemeanor assault charge, but the League continued its investigation into whether or not he had violated the League's personal conduct policy and determined that there was insufficient evidence of a personal conduct policy violation. So he is good to go and ready to sign with somebody. He may wait for these mini camps to be over. Washington opens up their last, you know, mandatory get together before training camp at the end of next month.

It starts tomorrow, runs through Thursday. We'll see if they take it all three days. But Diggs may wait for all the mini camps to end and then sign with somebody. But this was Diggs over the weekend on Channel 5. I never realized how many fans it was back home until I was a free agent. And people were like, are you going to come back home?

Especially when they see me back home. I'm like this, I've been living here for my whole life. I've been living here for 10 years. It was just like this. Oh, we never see you. I was like, man, y'all wasn't looking. So, I mean, it's a lot of hopes. We're kind of figuring out working through some things, you know.

I did have a small piece of me like, damn, it would be great to come home and play and play in front of the fans. I used to play in front of as a, you know, as a young adolescent in college and just, you know, kind of doing something for the city. That definitely will be a moment. Hopefully, you know, things do work. I will see how it goes, but, you know, I'm kind of open right now. So if all things were equal between Stefan Diggs and Brandon Ayuk, Iuke, and they're not,

I would take Ayyuk over Diggs and I wouldn't even think twice. I mean, there's an age difference. There is a long-term potential with IUC. Diggs is a short-term, you know, here playing out the final year or two or maybe three of his career. But all things are not equal. You know, Stefan Diggs is available to sign with anybody right now. Brandon Ayuk isn't. Brandon Ayuk appears to be a guy that has some issues.

right now. And Stefan Diggs seems to be clearing away the issues that he's been involved in and ready to play football again. Brandon Ayuk hasn't played in two years. Stefan Diggs played last year and played at a high level. So all things are not equal. I've talked about Diggs now for two or three months. I would be interested in Diggs. But I'm just saying that comparatively, if all was kind of equal between the two in terms of physical readiness, mental readiness, availability, etc. I would take Ayuk, but that's just not the case right now. With that said, I just don't think Diggs is going to end up landing here. I think every time I've heard Diggs talk over the last, what, month,

ever since he was cleared of those charges, I kind of feel like Stefan Diggs wants to go be the number one, again somewhere. Also, probably money and length of contract will be important to him. If he were to come here, he's not the number one. Terry would be the number one at this point. Stefan Diggs would be the number two. And then if they went and signed Iyuk as well, Diggs is like the three. Diggs has always been number one. I think somebody's going to be willing to give him more money and maybe for a longer period of time. if Iyuk ends up being out for Washington because of his own doing or Washington's decision, I'd love to have somebody like Stefan Diggs on the show. I'd like to have him on the show too.

I'd love to have Diggs on the team. And I think another veteran presence offensively would be welcome. And I think he's as tough a competitor on Sundays as anybody. And he'd be looking, I think, I think, I'd be looking, think at a one-year deal in a place like this, whereas maybe somebody else would be willing to give him a two-year deal. Look, they could give him a two-year deal with the ability to get out after a year, which is what New England did last year. But I don't know, I just, I have this feeling even though he says the right things about D.C. and playing at home, I have a feeling that the opportunities for him might be greater elsewhere. Also, playing on a surefire contender for him at this point in his career

may be something he looks to and maybe Washington isn't on that short list. All right, let me get to my NBA finals recap after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, it's great to have Chime back on the show as an advertiser this week. They've been periodically advertising for a few years, giving me an opportunity to tell you that Chime is changing the way people bank. And my younger self would have definitely benefited from using Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank by offering the most rewarding fee-free banking. Why pay fees on withdrawing your own money from an A&M? Well, with Chime, they have thousands of fee-free ATMs.

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Fox to Wemby. Wembe. Wembe tries a three, puts it up, off the mark. And Anobie, the rebound. It's over. It's over. Nick fans, this is not a dream. Your long, long wait has ended. Go ahead and cry after 53 years.

The Knicks are finally NBA champions once again. Mike Breen with the final moments of Saturday night's series clinching win for the New York Knicks in San Antonio. For a five-game series, I'm not sure you could have asked for more than that. This segment of the show is brought to you by Window Nation. Man, we had some heat at the end of last week. If your air conditioner never seemed to turn off on those days, worn out windows are likely the culprit. Upgrade your windows now during Wind Donations, buy four, get four free sale, which includes as a financing option, no money down, no monthly payments, and no interest for two full years. Imagine replacing all your old windows with new windows and paying half price and not having to pay anything for two years.

That's a great deal and this deal ends at the end of the month. Don't wait to put an end to your window problems. Save big with what Window Nation is offering right now. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to WindowNation.com to schedule a fast free in-home. estimate, and really that's all I ask, is just give them a chance if this is something you're considering. 86690 Nation, windownation.com. Window Nation, proud partner of Wounded Warrior Project. So the Knicks did it. They finished off the Spurs on Saturday night to win their first title in 53 years. 94 to 90 was the final score on Saturday night, a game that was defensive for sure,

but both teams struggled even on open shots. The Knicks in the first half, the Spurs for sure, in the fourth quarter. This one was similar to the other four in that the Spurs had a great chance to win the game. They were up by 10 with seven minutes and 54 seconds left in the game. They had a 95.4% chance or win probability in that moment, something that they had in a lot of the games in the NBA finals. In fact, they had a 91.6% chance. I'm not a big win probability guy, but I'll give you these numbers anyway because they're so absurd.

They had a 91.6% chance of winning game one when they were up by 13 midway through the third. They had a 99.6% chance of winning game 4, up by 20 with 9 minutes and 33 seconds left. in the fourth quarter, and they had a 95.4% chance of winning the other night up 10 with just under eight minutes to go. They also had a 72.8% chance of winning game two when they were up in the final minute of that game. How about this? The Spurs led for 72% of the action during the NBA finals, and yet they lost in five games. This was a wild NBA finals. For a five game series, it was memorable in so many ways. The comebacks by the Knicks, the close-out game for Brunson, the 29-point comeback with the Ananobe Tipin in game four in an absolute, you know, insane

asylum at Madison Square Garden. This series is, going to be remembered for the Knicks playing as a team, a real team without an obvious top five player in the league. For many, many years, I've been able to say, if you don't have a debatable top five player in the league, you can't win the NBA championship because it hasn't happened since 2004. Now, the 2014 spurs are debatable, but for the most part, over the last 22 seasons. Without a debatable top five player in the league, you can't win the title. Well, that changes with this Nick's team win.

Now, Jalen Brunson is a star, and he had one of the great closeout games in NBA history with 45 on Saturday night. Good God, was he incredible down the stretch at one point scoring 12 straight to take a 10-point and turn it into a two-point lead. But I don't think Jalen Brunson is a debatable top-five player. Now, he is an all-N-B-A second-teamer, not an all-N-B-A-first-teamer, but an all-N-B-A-second teamer. And I certainly think he is in the conversation for being a top-10 player, you know, probably closer to 10, much closer to 10 than five. But, yeah, the Knicks. are I think the first team that without debate did not have a top five player on their roster

and won a title since the 04 Pistons. Look, the Knicks run is all time. It's an all-time run. 16 and 3 with a point differential of plus 283. That's 53 points better than the 2017 Warriors, won the title with a plus 230 point differential. Their run of 15 and 1 over their last 16 games after they lost game three in the first round of the Hawks is just amazing. Remember, there was that stretch of 46 days during the postseason without a loss, 46 days. This is the greatest postseason run, I think we've ever seen. That is different from saying that this is the best championship team that you or me or anybody else has ever seen, because that's not true for me. I'm never going to consider the 2026 Knicks as one of the great teams of all time. They had one

of the great runs of all time and maybe the greatest postseason run of all time. But I can't put them up against, I mean, going back to the 80s, you know, any of those Lakers titles teams, certainly not the 86 Celtics, you know, some of the Bulls teams, some of the Warriors teams, no. But in terms of the run, yeah, all time. And it was really team won. I mean, this was a team that really had the right pieces that blended perfectly together and had one of the great closers, certainly for a smaller player that we've ever seen. Jalen Brunson is just a flat out stone cold closer and winner. He's won at every level. He's a two-time national champion at the college level, and now he is an NBA champion at the pro level. Look, the Knicks winning it and what it means to New York

and Jalen Brunson's incredible NBA finals, and he did deserve the MVP. After five games, and it being complete, you can pick the MVP. I would have said Carl Anthony Towns after game two, but there were more games to be played. I would have said OG Ananoi after game four, but there was another game to be played. And his 45 in a closeout game,

one of just four players, I believe, in NBA history, with 45 in a closeout game was insane. The Knicks are, you know, one of the big two in terms of the takeaways from the 2026 finals. The other is Victor Wembeyanama. I can't believe that Victor Wembenyama went from being the golden boy, the potential greatest that's ever played when he gets done with a career that's just beginning two weeks ago. that was the conversation to the villain right now. He's the villain.

He had a rough NBA finals. The way many are thinking about Victor Wembenyama today is much different than the way they would have thought about him had his spurs lost in game seven of the Western Conference finals to Oklahoma City. So let me just give you sort of my Victor Wembenyama notebook here now that the playoffs are over and the championship series itself is over. So there's a lot of good. I'm just going to begin with this and that is I was wrong to rush to judgment on him during the early portion of the postseason. In part, it's the same way I've done it in the past with guys like Yokic. It's like so many of you I know are sports fans, but not NBA fans. And I've wanted you to pay attention to the NBA playoffs because they're great.

And I've had a lot of people, a lot of you have reached out to say, man, you're right. These NBA playoffs and these NBA finals games are really, really great to watch. It's just a completely different sport than their regular season product. They just aren't even close to one another. But I was among the throng of people that were saying, oh, my God, he's one of one. He's a unicorn. He's an alien. We're at the beginning of a career that may end up being the greatest of all time.

Yeah, that was too quick. Too quick. He is ridiculously talented, skilled. And right now, he has already become one of the greatest, defensive forces in NBA history as an individual defender. I don't think I've ever seen a player impact more shots than Victor Wembeñama does on the defensive end. Offensively, and I'm going to focus on basketball here, and I'll get to the personal stuff

in a moment, but offensively, he's a work in progress, man. The game just isn't there offensively. He's 7.5, and yet he thinks of himself as a... a guard or a forward. He's more capable of playing a forward or a guard position more than any other 7-foot-5-inch player in the history of the game or more than any other 7-foot-1 or bigger player in the history of the game. But he's not like a great small forward or a great guard.

He can handle, but he can't handle like the best guards in the NBA can handle. You know, he can shoot it and can shoot it from distance. but for a 7-5 guy, he's great. He's just a good shooter for a guard or a forward. He needs a lot of polish to his offensive game. He needs a mindset change where the spurs do. They have to figure out what he is going to be, and I think it's going to eventually be a combination of a number of things,

but his biggest advantage should be closer to the basket right now, than further away from it. And he prefers to be further away from it. He needs to get stronger physically. That's obvious. He's only 22. He needs to be in better shape. He ran out of gas in multiple playoff games.

I put some of that on the head coach Mitch Johnson, especially in game four. There is no reason for him to play 44 or 48 minutes in game four. he's got to finish much better in these games. And I think one of the reasons he finished in poor fashion in the fourth quarter of many of these finals games, I think he was gassed. So he's got to get in better shape. And then, you know, the personal stuff.

He's a dirty player. You know, there are plenty of dirty players and there have been plenty of dirty players. he's dirty, you know, and it would have been very interesting with that flagrant on Jalen Brunson Saturday night that did not get called that I thought was a dirty play. I think, you know, it would have been upgraded to, I think it would have been upgraded to a flagrant after the fact, which would have had him suspended for game six. it's hard to really envision them winning game five and him not playing in game six. But it was certainly a possibility if they had called it correctly after the fact. You know, if they'd gone back and said missed it, we're assessing now a postgame flagrant foul. That would have been it.

He would have been suspended for game six. It would have been really interesting to see what the league would have done with that. Because I thought that that was, look, I've watched. every single minute of these Spurs playoff games. And there are six or seven examples of him either, you know, connecting on a dirty play or just missing on something dirty. You know, he nearly knocked out Nas Reed and he got thrown out of that game in that series against Minnesota. He threw Brunson to the ground, you know, earlier in the series, didn't get called. And then he landed in that space.

And if you look, he looks down to make sure that Brunson's going to land on his foot, you know, and Brunson could have been seriously injured landing on the foot. I can't believe they missed that call. That was such an obvious call on Saturday night. But they knew it would lead definitively to him being suspended in game six if there was going to be a game six. Look, let me just say this, you know, as I'm getting into some of the personal stuff. He is 22 years old.

Be patient. Things change. He's immature. He's an immature 22-year-old player. There is no doubt about that. But I say that, and a lot of the stuff that would be labeled as immature isn't necessarily immature as well. I love his competitive fierceness. I love the chippiness. I love the fact that he doesn't back down, because he gets attacked, he gets targeted. I like all of that about him. He's not soft. You know, is a 7-foot-5 skinny as a rail player. He's not soft.

But he's dirty. That has to change because he'll only end up hurting himself and thereby, you know, extension to the team, he'll hurt them and it as well. There's a fine line between arrogance and confidence. There's always some arrogance in every superstar player. But right now, from my standpoint, he's more arrogant than he is confident. I did not sense a lot of confidence towards the end of these games.

Again, part of it is conditioning and he didn't get enough rest and he was gassed. But the arrogance sort of resides in, yeah, we're going to win this series. Yeah, you know, I'm in your head up 25, up 29. And yet he's nowhere to be found at the end of it. A lot of that is maturity. It's maturity for sure. I think it's certainly not something that, you know, it did not shed a nice light on him during these finals.

And then I think bad sportsmanship at the end, he walked off the court, didn't shake anybody's hands, including Brunson, who initially sought him out. These are things that, you know, at 22, with some immaturity, I mean, we may look back and say, remember, you know, that first finals and he was a dirty player and he was a sore loser and he was arrogant, and now he's a grown-up and he's dominating the league. I certainly expect that to be more likely than this is the best we ever get from him. I don't think that's going to be it. But I started to kind of feel this way, you guys, remember, game seven against Oklahoma City. and I had already discussed that he definitely crosses the line between chippy and competitive and dirty during that Minnesota series.

But when he behaved after the Western Conference Finals win as if it was over, as if he had won the title, that was premature and immature to a certain degree. But he is going to be around for a while and they are going to be a threat for sure. Sure. They are the slight favorites to win the NBA title in 2027, just barely favored over Oklahoma City at My Bookie. My Bookie has right now San Antonio at plus 250 and Oklahoma City at plus 260. Then the Celtics are at plus 500. And then it's the Knicks after the Celtics. I think we're going to see Oklahoma City bounce back in a major way. It'll be interesting to see what they do with Chet Holmgren. It'll be interesting to see what the Spurs do with their roster.

Because I will tell you, the biggest reveal for me during this, you know, nearly two-month run of NBA playoff action, I had no idea how good Stefan Castle was. I had no idea how good Dylan Harper was. But they're playing with four guards the Spurs are. They need some additional size, and they probably need a point guard after Deeran Fox's NBA finals. All right, I think that's all I have on that. I did want to mention a couple of things because this news just broke not that long ago.

Sarr, Alex Sarr has a fractured foot. The Wizards Alex Sarr has a broken foot. Let me read from the story here. Wizard Center Alex Sar has undergone surgery to repair a fractured right foot, but he's expected to be healthy for the start of the season. But he'll miss all of the off-season work. It happened on a contact play during an off-season workout late last week. I mean, you know, it would be so Wizards if the first season in many,

you get a little bit excited to see what they got with Anthony Davis and Trey Young and all the youngens and then everybody starts getting hurt. Of course, the chances of Anthony Davis playing a lot of games seems to be slim and none. But Alex Saar at seven feet and really, you know, a talented player, hopefully he'll be fine and it sounds like he will be when the season begins. Another quick story that's NBA related. It was reported this after. that one of the top NBA draft prospects, Kansas's Darren Peterson, has visited just one team

in the NBA, that team, the Washington Wizards, but does not plan to meet with anybody else. The reporting is that other teams would like to meet with him. I'm sure they would. They would love to ask him questions about all of the games that he missed, but that he has granted just one visit, and that was with Washington. It's already happened, and he's declining to meet with anybody else. Red flag, add another one to the pile of red flags on Darren Peterson. Maybe he just thinks he's going to get picked by the Wizards and he doesn't want to waste his time. I don't know the reporting, the guessing, the NBA, you know, mocks all have DeBonsa going to Washington at number one. I will say this, the Winger and Dawkins, they don't talk much.

I don't think anybody knows anything for sure. All right, I'll talk some World Cup with Tommy tomorrow. By the way, a very shocking result from the World Cup this afternoon just ended zero-zero-nil draw between the World Cup favorite Spain and Cape Verde. Cape Verde. It's an island off the African coast, North Atlantic Island off the African coast. Apparently, this is one of the more shocking results in recent World Cup history. We'll really break down the soccer on tomorrow's show.

All right, Tim Bond Temps, ESPN's senior NBA writer next, after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Joining me right now is Tim Bondteps. He is the senior NBA writer at ESPN. You can follow him on X at Tim Bon Temps. Tim was, of course, here in D.C. with The Washington Post as its national NBA writer back in the mid-2010s. I love having Tim on the show to talk NBA. And what better day to do it than after one of the more memorable, I think, five-game series in the history. of the NBA finals. I'll start with this. I did read what you wrote yesterday. I loved it, and I do want to get into some of the New York stuff. But if someone who didn't watch the NBA finals but knew the Knicks 1 and 5 came up to you and asked you to tell them about how it happened, how would you describe it? I would describe it by saying that the smartest and toughest player in the NBA,

will this team to a title, which is, I think, the simplest way to describe it. I mean, Jalen Brunson is not the biggest guy, he's not the fastest guy, he's not the strongest guy, but he is the, I would say, probably physically, mentally toughest guy in the league, and he is probably just about the smartest, and his ability to find cracks in the defense and to manipulate defenders in a way where he can get to his spot to get his shots off. and his steadfast resolve to keep coming, regardless of how his personal game is going, or how the team's game is going, is really the thing that powers the Knicks along. And it's the thing that has allowed them to have five different comebacks of at least 20 points in the last two years in the playoffs.

And it's the thing that's obviously allowed them to make that incredible comeback in game four last week. It's the same thing that allowed him to just really stay Saturday night in San Antonio that he was just not going to lose the game. And, you know, that 45-point performance in game five is truly going to go down as one of the greatest performances in the history of the sport. I mean, there's four guys in the history of the league who've had at least 45 points in a close-out game of the NBA finals to win a title. There are Michael Jordan, Yons Petitoupo, Bob Pett, and Jalen Brenton,

for Hall of Fame players. You know, Jaylen Brett was maybe already going to the Hall of Fame if he didn't have this playoff run, but after the last two months, there is zeroed out that he will be a Hall Fame player, and that run the Knicks just went on is one of the most dominant runs we've ever seen a team having the playoffs, and it's obviously for the bigger picture reasons of the Knicks snapping their 53-year championship drought, it's going to be one of the most celebrated titles in the issue league. You know, you wrote success in the NBA more than any other

professional team sport is determined by having the best player and the Knicks have hardly been in that position. I've pointed out over the years that you pretty much have to go back to the 04 Pistons. You could make a case that the 2014 Spurs didn't have a top five superstar on their team, but they did have Kauai who was the, he was an up-and-comer at that point. Duncan was kind of on his way down a little bit, but they won that title. But if you take them out of the equation and say, well, Duncan was still borderline top five, or Kauai was ascending to being a top five player, basically every champion has had a debatable top five player in the league on their roster since the 04 Pistons. Do you view the Knicks as a team that just won a title without an obvious top

five player, or do you consider Brunson to be a top five player? No, I mean, look, I think he's been a second team all-N-V-A player each of the last few seasons, right? I mean, he was, he's been second team three years in a row. Like, he's somewhere in the back half of the top ten probably. And he's a great player. But, you know, Isaiah Thomas is basically the only guy who's ever led a team to a title at his kind of size. Right. You know, 6-1 or 6-2.

And, yeah, like, Jalen Brunson, you know, might not be, you know, pow-for-pound the same talent level as Luca Donchich or Jigalz, Alexander, or Nicoliochich, or Victor Ravayniamo, but at the end of the day, if you need to win a game and you have to put the ball in the hands of one guy, if you just give the ball to Jailen Brunson said, hey, go win us a game. he has spent the last 15 years for winning at every level and winning a lot at every level.

And he's repeatedly proven he can find a way to lift his team to places that people didn't expect them to go. And he did it again with his next team and as a result had one of the most remarkable playoff runs we've ever seen anybody have. And again, like both the way that series played out and the fact that the Knicks won it,

I mean, that's going to go down. It's one of the great performances and one of the great victories in the history of the sport. And it's, you know, it's sort of put to rest, whether he's the top five players or not, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, he's got a ring, and he's in good shape because of it.

You know, there's been a lot of discussion about the run that they've been on and now have completed, and it is by, you know, objective measures, the greatest playoff run in the history of the sport in terms of point differential, the 16 and 3 mark, the three losses by a point, a point in four points. So there are obviously quantifiable numbers that would suggest this is the greatest championship run we've ever seen. Put it in perspective of not the run, but where will the Knicks of 2026, rank in terms of the all-time great teams?

I mean, they're going to go down as one of the most dominant champions or the playoff run that we've ever seen. I mean, the only teams to win 15 out of 16 games in a playoff run in the history of the sport are the O'N Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, the 17 Warriors with Durant and Curry, and then the 2026 next with Jane LaBrensen, right? Like, that's pretty incredible company to be in. and, you know, people can try to talk about, well, they, you know, they played in the Easter conference or whatever, but they herb stopped their opponents on the way to the title, and then

they swept aside this very talented 62 wins first team in five games. And, you know, yes, they were down at the start of the games, and yes, they didn't, you know, they had to come back on the final two minutes and win all four of the games, but at the end of the day, they won the games. And it's, you know, like I said, for a whole host of reasons, this going to go down as one of the most memorable titles in the history of the league. And, you know, the way the Knicks played and the dominance they

showed throughout this run is certainly one of the main reasons why. How culpable were the Spurs in their own demise here over five games? Certainly plenty. I mean, when you look at how every game started, you know, with them up 10 or 12 or whatever,

in the first five minutes of the game, if you look at if you look at how the if you look at how the games themselves played out down the stretch where I think San Antonio had a lead in the final two minutes of every game certainly they blew the 29 point lead in game four that requires a lot of good to come from the team coming back

and a lot of bad to come from the team that's ahead you know the Victor Women yama missed free throws in game five the Victor Wilmaiova's free throws in game four the turnover late in game two and the foul. I mean, those are all things that obviously weren't great looks for him or for the Spurs. But, you know, there's also a reason why

the young team never wins in the NBA. And the Spurs had an unbelievable season and they very easily could have won this series. Like all those games were toss-up games. But I think you saw an experienced you saw an experienced team with a guy who has won a lot of big games and has been in a lot of big games just kind of knew how to get themselves to the finish line against a team that had just not been in those spots before. And, you know, I think, you know, if you watch Victor's postgame presser after game five,

and he talked about the lessons he's learned from just going through this run, it's like there's a reason why the young team always loses. You have to typically learn in the NBA how to take the final step. And this experience will be part of how San Antonio comes back and wins the title. It could be as soon as the next year. It could be the year after. It could be after that. But they're going to win one.

And health permitting, they're probably going to win a lot. And this whole run, including the finals, will be the thing that helps propel them to that height when they get there. The Knicks winning the title, Jalen Brunson's performance, especially in game seven, all part of what everybody's talking about. But you mentioned Victor Wembeyanama. A lot of people are talking about him after these five games. And you said about what he said in the postgame that this was a learning experience for him as well.

What do you think he learned? You know, they're going to learn the value of possessions. They're going to learn, you know, the importance of, properly closing out games. They're going to learn, you know, it's one thing even even for the greatest, the Spurs Thunder series was, the conference finals

are not the finals. There's a much different level of scrutiny and pressure and attention, and those are all things that he's going to learn as well. You know, it's just the NBA playoffs typically are more like a ladder, right? You tend to take a step up

and then a couple steps, and then in a couple steps, and you have to sort of keep getting your footing to ascend to the top. And the Spurs jumped almost every possible step, but they got to the finals against the veteran-composed experience team, and they taught them a bunch of new lessons. I mean, the series has reminded me a lot, was when the Mavericks beat the Heat in 2011, and that was the team led by Dirk Noviceky.

Yeah, well, it was LeBron's first year in Miami, and that was a team that obviously had a ton of talent, but hadn't played together yet, really. And, you know, they ran into a team that had a lot of experience and a lot of know-how and had a prime star who had a tremendous series, and that was enough to get it done. And after that, he came, he team came back and won a couple titles. And like I said, this Spurs team has got just an immense amount of talent,

led by Victor and assuming health. They're going to be in the mix for a very long time. he's going to get plenty of them in the end. Well, what's interesting about going back to that first Miami finals team is LeBron took a ton of heat. Game three, essentially a non-factor, almost hiding from the basketball in the corners of the floor when he touched it, it was like a hot potato. And I remember thinking at the time, wow, because, you know, as a young player,

he had the 23 and 25 point run to win the Eastern Conference finals before they got swept by the Spurs as a very young player. And focusing on just Wembe Gama's play down the stretch in these finals, now I don't think he cowered or disappeared, but I thought he ran out of gas in some of those games and looked completely spent physically. but still the comparison is young player, young player LeBron was older, obviously at that point. But yeah, like from a basketball standpoint, I thought it was interesting, Tim, in that I don't know what Victor Wembegama wants to be, and I don't know what the Spurs want him to be. What do you think? Is he a 7-5, you know, big, or is he more of a perimeter player moving forward? I mean, I think it's going to be a combination of the two.

You know, part of what makes him so special is that he is somebody that can shoot it out to the three-point line and can stress the defense that way and can also go to the rim and dunk from the free throw line, right? So I think, you know, some of this is going to be he's got to learn some new tricks through his game, just like all the great players do. I mean, when he sort of adopts some sort of hook shot or floater or some, you know, kind of pet play from 8 to 12 feet that he can go to, which, you know, is like shooting on a,

you know, from a couple feet away for normal humans, on a, on a smaller hoop. He's got to, I mean, that'll make him pretty much unguaritable. But he's got to learn to set better screens on the perimeter. He's got to learn to have a better short roll game.

He's got to, you know, he's going to continue to get stronger as he gets older. Not that he should put on a ton of weight, but just, you know, physically he'll just, get used to the rigors of getting pounded on and playing in the NBA and knowing what it's like to play late in the playoffs. And look, the other thing is, too, you have to get used to playing this many minutes and this many games.

And the fact of the matter is he's a gigantic human being who is pretty unbelievable conditioning, but there's no level of conditioning that can prepare you to play these incredibly intense high energy games in April, May, and June in the playoffs. But you've gone through it. It's another reason why the young team never wins. Like, it's just something you have to learn. And to your point, especially after that unbelievable game one performance against Oklahoma City, yeah, that was like the 48th special that you mentioned that LeBron had against the Pistons.

Both those teams, you know, both those times the Young Star got through the conference finals, played an experience team in the finals, and lost pretty handling, right? And it's not, to me, it's not a coincidence that happened. Like, that game won against O KC was the beginning of the Victor era, just like that 48th special is really the first thing anybody thinks of when they think of LeBron, right? That was his first true incredible performance on an NBA stage. But you usually don't win right after that. And, you know, going into the finals, I kept referring to the magic getting swept by the Rockets of 95 with Shaq and Penny

and the LeBron getting swept in 2007 against the Spurs when he made it the first time. and, you know, I didn't think the Knicks are going to sweep the Spurs, but the young star in that spot, those are the best analogs for Victor ever, really, and those guys both lost. So I think it's totally understandable that the Knicks found a way to get this done. I thought they matched it very well with San Antonio. They did in the regular season, too. But it was an incredible season for the Spurs, and, again, I keep saying it's just not jakes it,

but if this team stays healthy with Dylan Harper and Savon Castle, Victor Weminiama, they're going to be at the end of the run. They're at the end of the road in the finals a lot of times over the next 10 or 15 years, and they're going to get plenty of chances to win titles, and I'll be very surprised if they're healthy if they don't win a bunch of them. If the Spurs had won Saturday night, if they had held on and actually won the game, how do you think the league would have handled the flagrant that was missed on Wembenyama? there would have been immense pressure to call it,

and I think there's a decent chance they would have. We'll never know. I was actually going to do a pool report about that play after the game. However, it was not needed when the game ended the way it did. But it would have been fascinating to see what happened, because, you know, I think I got personally a little tired of the endless discussion of the referees, you know, that went on over the last month of the season

between the Spurs' Thunder series and then the Spurs' Nick series. I just thought all the conversation around officiating was a little tiresome. But, and I don't think this was some, like, extraordinarily dirty play by him or anything. It's just, he landed under Jalen, and it's called as a plagiar and foul, like you said, all the time. It's a pretty obvious play. and wasn't seen, wasn't called,

and I think it would have really caused a ton of drama over the last couple days, because I'm not sure they've ever upgraded a play like that to a flagrant after the fact, but the whole world saw it, star player got his ankle turned, and, you know, like when I covered Draybine Green 10 years ago

and he got suspended for game five against the Cavaliers and contributed to Cleveland coming back and winning that title, that suspension was as much about Draymond body slamming Michael Beasley with one second to go in game three or four of their first round sweep of the rocket as it was him hitting LeBron dry on that play late in the game right and Victor Rubinjama should not have old cogniz reading the face with his elbow in the second round right if you didn't do that it wouldn't have been an issue right so I really wouldn't have had any sympathy for him

in terms of getting suspended. And it's just a reminder of it. And it's, again, like, from a learning standpoint, like, he had some moments of immaturity in these playoffs. And, you know, that, so Nas replay was one, walking off about doing media was another one. You know, some of the other stuff that went on.

Like, like walking off, you know, I don't think the handshake thing at the end of the world, but it's not the best look to not shake hands at the end of the game, right? Like, all those things, they're not, they're not crimes against humanity, but they are signs of a young guy that is going through this for the first time. And yeah, and it's just a reminder that he's 22 years old.

It is. And, like, he's 7-6, and he's an unbelievable player, and he's an unbelievable speaker, and he's going to be the face of the league, and he's extraordinarily competitive. And I think the NBA is an amazing hands with him going forward as the guy that's going to be the face of the league and somebody that people are going to really be captivated by,

both good and bad going forward. But it's also a reminder that he's a kid and kids make mistakes. And to go back to your earlier question, those are all part of the things that, from a learning standpoint, by the time the spurs get back to this position again, whether it's next year or the year after or whenever, you know, Victor and Spurs will all be much better

for having gone through this. It's a reminder that it was pretty good for the Knicks to get this one now because there might not be a lot of opportunity to get some in the future against these guys. Yeah, I mean, like you said earlier, the immaturity, you didn't say this, but the immaturity played out in the biggest of spotlights. The spotlight on the NBA finals is much different than it is on the Western Conference finals. and so the perception that he left was one that

that's much different than the one he would have left had they lost Game 7 in Oklahoma City, which by the way, I'm just curious, do you think if Jalen Williams had played in that series or in Game 7 that we would have seen OKC in the finals? I mean, look, I think if AJ Mitchell and Jaylon Williams were healthy, the funder would have been a much better team, but it doesn't matter, right? No, I know it doesn't matter.

I'm just curious as to what you think. Because I actually think O.K.C. would have beaten the Knicks. I think if you go back and look through the season, the Thunder, the Knicks, and the Spurs were sort of a game of rock-paper scissors, and the spurs were consistently good against the Thunder. The Thunder, I think, were better than the Knicks, and the Knicks were consistently good against the Spurs. There were some specific match-up things that benefited both the Knicks and the Spurs

and those matchups that allowed them to have success. you know, the Thunder may well have won. If Jane was healthy, I picked them to win the series. I think they were the better team. But the spurs on balance are better than them over the course of the season in that matchup. And they certainly were over the seven games. All right. Two more.

I loved the stuff that you wrote yesterday just about the importance to New York. Because I think as a, you know, as a diehard sports fan in thinking about these big cities with all of these teams, I often have conversations with friends or even on the air about what. most important. And I'm curious as to what you think about this championship that they just got and where it ranks among all-time New York titles, Giant Yankees, Mets, Rangers, where will this one rank all-time? I mean, it's going to rank really high. I mean, you know, it's probably right there with, it's probably right there with the Rangers

winning in 94 because it was basically the same amount of time. That was a 54-year drought. This is a 53-year drought. You know, I mean, that Giants team beating the Patriots in 42, you know, to keep the Patriots to keep the Patriots being undefeated. That was an incredible championship. But, yeah, Super Bowl 42. Sorry.

But, yeah, look, the Knicks, people that don't live in New York, and I'm sure our mutual friend, Tony Correheiser, would agree with me on this. people that don't live in New York don't understand how big the Knicks are. And they sort of just assume the Yankees, or maybe the Giants, or the biggest team in New York, and they don't think about the fact that for basically the entire time those teams have existed, there's always been another team, right? Like, there are tens of millions of people who are Jets fans, and there are tens of millions of people who are Mets fans or were Brooklyn Dodgers,

the Giants fans who grew up hating the Yankees, right? There's a lot of people who hate the Yankees or don't care about the Giants. Basically, everybody within a 100-mile radius of New York City is a Knicks fan. You're talking tens of millions of people who only root for one basketball team. And so all of New York City is pretty much Knicks fans. And all the areas around New York City are pretty much six fans. That's where you get for people who are from New York City and moved elsewhere, which there obviously are plenty of those people, right?

So for all of those people who have rooted for this team, that for stretches has been really, really good, but not good enough. Like those 90s teams with Patrick Ewing had a couple really close calls and didn't win, and obviously had a ton of really good seasons and went deep in the playoffs and lost really competitive heart-breaking series. Also won plenty of competitive heart-breaking series for the other team, but, you know, ultimately never broke all the way through,

made the finals twice and didn't win. And then had, you know, just an unbelievably awful 21 years, where they were the worst franchise in the NBA by a mile and, you know, won, I think, 40% or less of their games and won eight total playoff games in 21 years and had almost twice as many coaches in that time. And, you know, we're just, and we're more known for embarrassing moments

than they were any sort of, success at all, right? So to go from that to then what this team has become and winning this championship and doing it in the manner they did, like, even if the Knicks went on to win another title next year in two or three years, right, it wouldn't be the same as winning 15 of the final 16 games, winning nine road playoff games in a row, beating, you know, the next face of the league in the NBA finals in this unbelievably dramatic fashion, having this 29-point comeback at the garden in game four with this

OGN and Obie shop that's got to go down as one of the iconic shops in the history of the NBA let alone

New York sports history right? So all of that together it just made for a very a very

unbelievable and memorable scene for how it played out and it produced some theater for the ages

and as good even though it only went five games that was as good of finals as you're ever going to see

because every game was awesome. Like even like Warriors Cabs, which is obviously a more impactful historical series, most of the games on series were very good. They were, you know, there were great players playing, but they were a lot of 15, 20-point games in that series. These games all went down to the last minute, all were competitive until the end, all had crazy finishes in them in different ways. You know, it was really incredible theater and an incredible product for the sport to have,

and it really it really highlighted just how good the sport could be and it sets up Victor Wenamah now to have his redemption arc in the future and I think fully cements him as the faith of the league going forward. All right, a week from tomorrow night, the NBA draft different subject,

but what do you think the Wizards do? I mean, I'm not sure what they're going to do. They're going to take Darren Peterson or anything to Bantza. I'm pretty certain. I don't know which way they'll go. I think there's pros and cons. to either guy. I think Peterson's probably got a higher ceiling,

and I would say DeBanson's probably got a higher floor, but both should be really good players. And, you know, it's an opportunity for the Wizards to add another piece to the mix here, and then, you know, I would presume they'll get a deal done with Trey Young and potentially with Anthony Davis this summer when they're extension eligible. And, you know, we'll see how many wins that translates into next year,

they should be in position to, you know, be a competitive team pushing for a plow spot next year or more if Trey and A.B. could stay on the court and if whoever they pick can have an impact for him. I lied one more. Let's just say Anthony Davis, because this is not the odds on favorite, but let's just say he played 70 plus games next year and was healthy for the postseason. How many games would they win in the regular season? how far could they go in the east? It's hard to say right now on either of those because a lot of that would be dependent on

what else is going on around them. But, I mean, they could be an above 500 team next year if that happened, you know, low to mid-40s, probably. They still have a ton of young players. We still have a, you know, a coach of Brian Keefe, who I've known for a long time. I'm glad he's getting a year to try to win with some of the talent they now have. but, you know, has not been part of, you know,

not been a head coach for a playoff team yet. You know, whether the draft Peterson or DeBancor, so they're going to be plenty involved. Rookies tend to not be hugely impactful for a win standpoint. So have a lot of other young players that they're going to be playing a lot of minutes. So I would guess they'll make improvements in progress, but you're also going to have a lot more teams

trying to be competitive too. So some of the wind total numbers are going to be deflated from what you might normally think because there's just not going to be like this year. There were 10 teams trying to lose for two and a half months. Yeah, right. Like, that's not going to happen anymore. Yeah. Good point.

But I think it's reasonable to expect that if Trayong and Anthony Davis are on the team and relatively healthy, that, you know, I think the Wizards will expect to be in the mix for a playoff spot. If they're not, it'll be a disappointment. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Always. Hope you're well.

Likewise, man. Thanks a job. We'll talk soon. All right. Let's get to the Nats' big weekend. We'll do that with Mark Zuckerman. after these words from a few of our sponsors. The Nats are off, launched out to a deep right field,

and that will tie the game. Home run for James Wood. The Nats are rolling, boys and girls, and James Wood is on a heater. Ten of 21 over his last five games with three homers and five RBIs. This segment of the show is brought to you by My Bookie World Cup action.

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together at MyBooky. You can go to MyBooky at either mybooky.com or my bookie.ag. All right. Joining me right now is my friend Mark Zuckerman. Mark, of course, covers the Nats and is now doing it through

his own substack. You can get access to that by going to natsjournal.com. You can go to his ex account at Mark Zuckerman and link to everything. He does a podcast as well. You can find that wherever you find your podcasts, but he does a Nats podcast with our guy Al Galdi. All right, so here they are on an unbelievable role offensively marked through the first now 72 games of the season.

You know, at what point do you stop saying, hey, this is just a run or it's an aberration versus this is actually the way it is, and it's sustainable, and it's time to start taking the nationals seriously. When does that begin? Yeah, I think we're getting closer to that point. I mean, we're 72 games in now, a little over a week away from the halfway point of the season. if they have a winning record at the 81 game mark, it's hard not to take that seriously.

Now, we've seen that first half performance doesn't guarantee anything come in the second half, but that said that the resilience that they have shown, coming back from just that awful loss in San Francisco. But even prior to that, the homestand right before that, they got swept at home by the Marlins. And a lot of people thought, well, maybe that's the beginning of the end. And they went out west, and they won series over.

were the Diamondbacks and the Giants. And so they have consistently shown this ability now to shrug off bad things when they happen and come right back in impressive fashion. That, to me, is the hallmark of a good team. They've still got a ways to go before you can say anything definitively. But each passing day, each passing series, if they win, if it looks more and more legitimate.

Other than the record at 37 and 35, what's the biggest surprise to you so far? I mean, it's got to be the lineup. I knew they were going to have a decent lineup. I think everybody kind of knew that they had a better lineup and the pitching staff. But did anybody think they were going to have the most productive lineup in baseball? I don't think so. And it's not just James Wood and TJA.

It's what they're getting out of so many others. The way that Blake Butera is playing the matchup, going lefty-righty, not just in a starting lineup, but often in the middle of a game, subbing guys out, finding positive matchups to play, and getting production from everybody. That, to me, really stands out. It's a credit to the players, it's credit to the coaches, that they've been able to take.

It's obviously a talented young group, but turn that into such a consistently productive lineup. I don't think anybody really saw that come to me. After Wooden Abrams, who's the next best after that? Well, that's a great question, and I think what's telling here is that it kind of changes, and that one week you might say, oh, Curtis Mead's been really good, and then the next week you say, hey, Dail and Lyle is on a hot streak, and then right now I'm at McAver-Ruiz, another one that we never saw coming given his struggles

the last few years, and he's got an OPS over 800 now. And I think that's telling that maybe nobody else has been as consistently productive as Wooden Abrams, but almost everybody else at some point has gotten hot and shown the ability. And so I think that's what makes it into a good lineup is that you don't necessarily feel like you always have to rely on the same people, but that there are a number of others that can come through for you. I know we saw some of this previously, but are you surprised James Woods having the year he's having as a lead-off hitter?

No, not necessarily. He is such an elite hitter, and when I say that, that's not just because he has been a cold, but as we've always known, he's had an incredible, eye at the plate and patience. And he's going to draw walks, and he's done that to a huge extent. And you saw it at times Davey Martinez

used him in the leadoff spot, and I think the feeling was always, well, you want him driving in-run, not just batting at the top. And what Tuterra and the front office here looked at and said is, hang on, this guy's really good, he draws walks, he runs the bases really well.

Many plate opportunities that have many chances to hit as possible. They now leads the majors, and that's been a great thing because he's so productive. He leads the league and runs forward by 13 over anybody else, that's hard to do as another great sign of just how good he can be in so many different ways. Who are the obvious All-Stars? Wood and Abrams?

Is there another? Wood and Abrams are the obvious ones right now, and they both arguably have case to start that game in Philadelphia. Beyond that, I think you could start to make a case for K. Herbert Ruiz, believe it or not, and it's not just the offense. His defensive work is leeds and bounds better than it used to be. He has become an elite pitch framer, which was one of his worst trades in the past. I don't know that he would compete with a starting job there, but he can certainly get consideration to be on the bench. I think there's a case you made for what Foster Griffin has done in his first year back in the big

league after pitching in Japan the last three years. Kate Cavali, you know, I could maybe make the argument he needs to probably be a little bit more consistent for when he's on, you know, he's among the league leaders, strikeouts, when he's good, he's really good. So, do I think they're going to get

more than Wooden Abrams? Probably not. It's hard to pull that off if you're not a high-profile tool. But just the fact that there are others who do legitimately deserve consideration, I think, volume about how far they've come. How's Dylan Cruz done since being

called up? You know, it started slow, and I think a lot of people were getting worried. I just kind of looks like the same Dylan Cruz that we saw last year and in spring training and falling behind in the count, hitting a lot of ground balls. He's not

all the way back yet, not at all. But he is hitting the ball harder with a lot more regularity. He is hitting the ball in the air. We've seen some really, like, massive home run from him. 432 feet, 440 feet. I think what's most important, and especially over the last week or so, is we are seeing him contribute to this team in positive ways beyond just hitting. His base running has been excellent. He scored from first base on a single the other day against the Mariners

with great instincts and hustle. He's made a couple of leaping catches slamming into the outfield ball each of the last two days. This is a winning player who came from a winning call. culture and LSU. We always knew that about him. I think right now they're trying to take the pressure off him and say, hey, we got the number one lineup in baseball. Don't worry about that. Just go be yourself. And I think you're starting to see him get more comfortable out there. All right. What's encouraging right now about the overall pitching situation? I think the encouraging part is that in a lot of these cases, these guys are improving as the season goes on. The two most notable ones.

I know they're not part of a long-term plan, but Miles Michaels and Zach Lattel in April looked like absolute busts. ERAs in the sevens and eight. And legitimate reason to say, well, they're going to have to, they can't stick around with this for long, right? In both cases, the coaching staff has helped them identify some things with mechanics, with approach, with their between-starts work they do, and they've both become consistently effective pitchers,

not dominant pitchers, although Michael was dominant in that seven-inning game the other day, but just consistently effective. And what's now become, you know, we knew it was not a good pitching staff. But where in the past you said, well, that's two games that you kind of figure you're going to lose, those are now two games that you expect at least to have a chance, if not even to win. So between them, between the guys in the bullpen who've gotten back, better over the course of the season. I think that's a great sign of what the coaching staff has been able to do with them.

And it's honestly a reminder that sometimes you do have to be patient and not just assume that what you saw at the beginning of the year is what they're going to be for the entire year. So if I told you they stayed in contention and we got to the trade deadline end of next month, early part of August, and they're still sitting a game out of the wild card spot, which is where they are right now. how do you think the organization will treat that situation if we get there? It is going to be so tricky if that's where they are.

You know, if they're comfortably in playoff position, different story. I think you absolutely are aggressive. If you're three games out with a, you know, five teams in front of you, I think it's easy for them to say, hey, we're going to stick with what the long-term plan was all long. We're not going to become buyers at the deadline. if they're right in that middle ground, we're like, yeah, they're in it, but you don't want to do anything that does, like, sacrifice the future for a shot at maybe making it this year when you know deep down, look, maybe they could somehow get into a wild card position, but they're not going to go deep in October. It's hard to believe that they could beat the Dodgers or the Brewers or the Braves in the playoff series. But that said, you do owe it to everybody, not just the fans, but to these actual players who have done this for you this year, to show that you believe in them.

And so, to me, I think the most logical move of that were to happen. You're not selling pieces off. I don't think you do that. Maybe you buy a couple of calculated pieces, like a reliever here or there, somebody that doesn't cost a lot in terms of prospects. I could see them doing that. Do I see them going all in? No. They're not going to trade away legit prospects.

just for an outside shot at making the playoffs this year. But I know they're internally having to debate this, and they're essentially saying, we've got about a month and a half to figure this out. Let's see the better the team plays, then the more they have to consider that possibility. Schedule does get a little bit different, doesn't it, you know, towards the end of this first half,

and then in the second half? Yeah, and they've played one of the harder schedules in baseball so far, and again, it's done this. Look, they've won eight of their last 10 years. That's crazy, I know. They split one with the Mets, and the only one they lost. Miami. Left by the Marlins.

Yeah. So they're consistently winning two out of three, no matter what the competition is. That, to me, is another good sign of consistency. It does get a little easier. The Royals come in right now. Although, I think what we've learned from this team, don't assume anything, good or bad. Just when you think everything's going great, they maybe slip a little bit,

and just when you think it's all going to fall apart, they come back and impress you. So I wouldn't take anything for granted as far as the schedule's concerned. right now. I mean, you feel like what we've seen that there's a good chance. We're going to be sitting there and 81 games plus is going to be a possibility now, right? 81 wins. Yeah, yeah. You get this far at this point, you absolutely have to consider that a possibility. And look, even if they don't, okay, let's say they get the 77-78, that's a huge step up from where anybody thought they would be this year. And it's great that we can talk about the possibility of being in a pennant race this year.

But I think even more important than that is that they're establishing that they probably should go into next season believing that they can be a contender. And that's ahead of timeline. That, to me, might be the bigger thing they sell or trade at this deadline. What they've done says to me that they should be more aggressive next winner in trying to win in 227. All right. Last one. Just tell me, just give me some information on this Milwaukee pitcher's performance, not just the other night against Philadelphia where he struck out 15 in a complete game, one hit shutout, but just on Mizorowski's overall season right now. How good is this guy? It's tremendous. It's kind of unlike anything we've ever seen. He throws so hard. every time he pitches, he's throwing 100, 300, and able to throw it for strikes and able to sustain that.

You know, there have been some relievers of Aldous Chapman who was able to do that. I don't think there's been a starter who could sustain that kind of velocity for six, seven innings the way that Mizoroski does. And it's remarkable. He's dealt with a couple of injuries, but nothing, thankfully, nothing that serious. You do worry that's eventually going to come back to bite him. but for now it's as impressive as anything that we've seen and the brewers who keep finding a way to be really good year in and year out this might be what finally gets them over the hump come October I mean three really good national league teams right now in Atlanta, Milwaukee and the Dodgers.

In fact, I think it's the three best records in baseball are the three division leaders in the national league. Mark, thanks. As always, appreciate you doing. You got it, thanks, Kevin. At Mark Zuckerman on X, everybody. Subscribe to his substack. That'll do it for today, back tomorrow with Tommy.