The Kevin Sheehan Show - Alex or Dwayne This Week?

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

Kevin and Thom today talking about the possibility that Alex Smith may not be at 100% this week and how the team might, should, and/or will handle it. The boys had a conversation about where Washington ranks right now in the NFC. The ESPN story on James Harden was discussed as was the decision by Major League Baseball to include Negro League statistics as MLB statistics. Kevin had a Thursday Night NFL "Smell Test" pick as well. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Hey, Ron. If Alex is unable to practice this week, what's your comfort level with letting him play Sunday? It'll be good. Smart football player likes him.

So not necessary that he needs to get some work in this week, game plan, that sort of stuff. Well, again, I mean, smart football. like that you usually don't worry about those guys those guys be able to pick it up and be ready to go thank you everyone with Alex is his injury such that you guys chose to hold him out or um could he have gone today um Alex has a calf Alex has a calf Tommy who did that sound like sound like a football coach near and dear to our hearts coach Joe Gibbs I used to love when Joe Jackson Gibbs, the icon of this city's sports history, used to say about players leading up to a game, Alvin Walton's got a knee. Ernest Binder, he's got a shoulder.

Jacoby, yeah, Jake's got, Jake's got an elbow. Yeah, we all have elbows and shoulders and knees. And that's it. That's all you got from Ron Rivera yesterday. He was so buttoned up about Alex Smith and whether or not he's going to play and et cetera. Tommy, I think it's 50-50 at best that Alex Smith is going to be ready. And the other part of this real quickly is Alex admitted that this injury happened last week. He thought he was going to be okay in that it was minor, but when they got to the game, it just got worse.

And so this is a calf injury. these things can be lingering, and we may see Dwayne Haskins start Sunday against Seattle. Okay. What would you be saving Alex Smith for if he can play in any resemblance? What's the point of resting him? Well, first of all, the point of resting him would be that you hope he would be better and healthier for the final two games, which actually mean much more than even this next game. It's very possible that this game really isn't a must win,

unless you think the Giants are about to run the table against the Browns, Ravens, and Cowboys. Oh, you know who's playing quarterback. Yeah, I know. They've heard them against the Browns, don't you, baby? Well, not only is he playing quarterback. Did you see that Jason Garrett tested positive for COVID-19? He's out.

So Freddie Kitchens is going to call plays. So it's Freddie Kitchens and Colt McCoy, against their old team, the Browns, because remember, Colt was in Cleveland for a while. I know. I know. That's going to be an ugly game, by the way. But let me just, let me give you three quick points. One, I wouldn't put him out there for his own health. Two, we already saw what he was not healthy on Sunday, brutally awful. He doesn't give you any, he doesn't give you a chance to be productive offensively if he's got the same sort of calf injury. That was a terrible half of football that he played with that calf injury.

Thirdly, as I just mentioned, the truth of the matter is it's not must have Sunday. It's not a must-win situation. Why not? Again, I just explained to you because the Giants are underdogs this week. They'll be underdogs the following week against Baltimore, significant underdogs. And as long as the Giants lose one game of their final three, then the only two that matter are Carolina and Philadelphia, or winning two of the three matter.

It matters. Okay, okay, but you explained it to me. It makes sense. You're right. It makes sense now. This is not a must win. Plus, it's the most difficult of all the games, probably, to begin with, even if you are 100% to win.

So, okay, I get it. But they're not going to win with Dwaying a quarterback. Okay, so that's where I wanted to go because it's very funny. Yesterday, when there was just sort of the possibility that, you know, Alex might not play. You know, I did the call segment where I just said, you know, asked everybody. So if Dwayne ended up starting, you know, how would you feel? You know, how would you feel about their chances? Not very good is basically the majority opinion. Today, when it became more, you know, more possible, you know, the way. The possibility increased that Alex may not play on Sunday and Dwayne would start. I mean, people are essentially saying you roll Alex out even on one leg. Like the confidence level in Dwayne Haskins has really shrunk. And at the same time, Tommy, I would tell you, if you tell me that I'm going to see the Alex Smith that I saw last week in the first half with that calf injury, I'm absolutely

starting Dwayne Haskins. and I absolutely believe that he would give you a better chance of being productive. But if Alex is healthy, that's my preference. I want Alex playing at the level that he was playing at before, which, you know, was pretty good football for a several week period. So I want that, and I want him to run the table and finish nine and seven and be on a seven-game winning streak going into the postseason with Alex Smith having beaten Pittsburgh and Seattle along the way.

But if he's not 100%, and by the way, these things can linger. I mean, who knows? He may not be 100% the rest of the year. But you can't roll Alex Smith out there if you're going to get the Alex Smith from the first half against San Francisco. You can't do that. You've got no chance. You're right. You're right.

You can't do that. And Dwayne can be competent at times. And, you know, I mean, he has shown an ability, like you've said, to manage a game. But you're not going to manage a game against Seattle. You know, as good as the defense is, this is going to be a big challenge for them against Russell Wilson. So they're not going to be in a position to manage the game. But everything you said makes sense. Everything you said makes sense. And you put Dwayne out there and you hope for the best. And you just hope if Alex is not 100% by this week, you hope he's better.

for when they face Carolina, which is a more important game. Do you think Dwayne has overcome the trauma of being benched for, you know, five or six games like he was? It was, it was apparently, according to his comments after the game, the most devastating thing he's ever had to deal with in his life. You know, do you think he's overcome that trauma? I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, we talked about this before.

I mean, it was a level of immaturity, his reaction to basically being asked to finish up the game. That's basically what he was being asked to do. Dwayne, go in and, and, you know, and don't blow it. Yeah, you know? And I mean, I swear, like I said before, you would have think he was the one coming back from a broken leg for the past two years, the way he talked. So he, to me, hasn't learned anything. He's still going to be the Dwayne Haskins who can be good at times, but it's difficult to take seriously.

He's difficult to take seriously. How's that? You know, there were two quotes yesterday from Scott Turner's presser and from Alex Smith's presser. I'm just going to read him because I don't have them ready to go from an audio standpoint. And I guess we could go dig it out. but I had the other stuff ready to go for Aaron, but I don't have this stuff. So I'm just going to read it.

All right, fine. Alex was asked on if he's seen growth from Dwayne. And he said, I think again, it just comes down to the details, mastering the details, especially as a quarterback. There's a lot of details more so than I think than some other positions, and you've really got to master all of those. There's a ton of them. You don't know which ones are going to come up. You've got to master all of them just to give yourself a chance to be able to go out there and have success. I think continuing to go out there and get all that done throughout the

week so that on Sunday you can go play free. Scott Turner was asked about Haskins yesterday and where he told Dwayne to work on, you know, when he got bench, specifically what to work on. And he said, well, that was kind of a private conversation that myself and Dwayne had. Coach Rivera and Dwayne had one separately themselves. So he said it was a private conversation. Then he starts to get into some parts of the conversation. He said, just that constant work every single day and the process of building towards something

and not just thinking it's going to happen, his growth has been in his preparation. Yeah, there are other things that well, but that's the thing. This league is incredibly competitive. It's very hard. It's hard to be successful. You've got to get a process. You've got to get something that you believe in and you've got to stick with it. That only gives you a chance. If you do that, then you've got a chance to be successful, but then you've still got to go play. Those are the things that he's really working towards. He's got, like I said, a great mentor and great models to show him on a daily basis. And Alex, he's really taking that to heart. He's really taking that to heart. he's moving in the right direction. By the way, both of those statements are just absolute confirmation about what the issue or the biggest issue with Dwayne is, and that was, and that is preparation. He wasn't preparing right.

You know, comes down to details. You've got to master the details. You've got to master the details during the week to give you a chance on Sunday. You know, you've got to have the preparation. It's the constant work every single day, you know. I don't know if they told you it's really gotten better, but they told you what the issue was. If you thought it was somehow too vague or non-specific earlier in the season.

As far as his emotional ability to handle being benched and coming back, I think he'll be fine on that front. He thinks he'll be fun? I do. I don't know. I don't know. He may start speaking in tongues when he's out there on the field. on Sunday, it'll be such an experience for him.

Who knows? You know, this really, some of the things that really get to you are always interesting to me. He was a young kid who got benched, who had a chance to play, and he was emotional about it, because he didn't know if he was ever going to have a chance to play for the team again. Oh, I know that. But your lesson, having learned while you've been benched is it's not about you. Yeah. It's not about you and what you had to overcome and what you,

and the emotion that you felt, it was what you did for the team. That's the lesson. Yeah. Well, you're right about that. You are right about that. And you know what? A lot of younger players and a lot of younger people I've noticed in recent years make it all the time about themselves.

A lot of older people, some of whom are on the, this call, this show right now, sometimes make it all about themselves. But it's always so hard on yourself. I don't know why. But as far as Dwayne goes, as far as Dwayne goes, yeah, I see that. I see what you're saying. And it would be better. It would have been better had he said, we got the win. That was the most important thing. I hope Alex is better. I'm going to prepare. and continue to prepare and try to do the best I can to help the team win. I think I could have been better in a lot of spots today,

and I'm going to keep working towards getting better in those spots. Like something like that, that is more team-related, and if it's about you, it's not looking for compassion or sympathy, I guess. I mean, don't make this the worst thing that ever happened to you in your life. Because apparently, it is. according to him. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to him. Now, you know how interesting this opportunity could be for him? First of all, do you agree with me after reading or listening to Rivera and Smith yesterday

that there's a decent chance Alex Smith isn't going to play on Sunday? I'd still think it's 50-50. Yeah, 50-50. Okay, coin flip. So if Dwayne gets that opportunity, it's a huge. huge opportunity for him. A massive opportunity for him. And what if he goes out there? Like, look, every game he has started in, he hasn't stunk in. He's been okay in some games last year at the end of last year. Yes, he has. Okay? He was excellent in the New York game and in Philadelphia game at the end of last year. He was pretty good at the end of that Detroit game. You know, he he wasn't,

He certainly was decent in the second half against Philly in the comeback this year. I thought at times against Cleveland, except for the picks that he moved them down the field. They had a fourth quarter lead in that game. Now, he thinks the Baltimore game was the best game he played. Statistically, he was apparently talking about his fantasy numbers. I think he's capable, if Scott Turner put, I think Scott Turner's got a lot to do with this, I think he's capable of putting out an effort that does. Doesn't suck.

And what if he put out one of a, what if he put out a professional game and they won? What if he put out a, let's say he does that. Yeah. Let's say he does that. What will he have accomplished? Well, it's not. Well, it's so, so first of all, I don't want to make this about him. I want to.

I want you. What do you think he, okay, let me put it a different way. What do you think he will have accomplished? What do you think he'll think he's accomplished? Well, those are two different questions. Which one do you want me to answer? What do you think he'll think he's accomplished? I hope he doesn't think that he's arrived with a performance like that if it happens.

What's the likelihood of that happening? 50-50. It's less than 50-50. What's the likelihood that he thinks, okay, I've washed my hands. I got this. You know? I don't know. I figured it out.

I hope he's got this. I hope the last couple of months have provided some personal growth for him. I do. All I saw Sunday was the, you know, the, you know, all emotional outburst of somebody who still doesn't get it. I can tell you this. If he does play well and they beat Seattle, it will make him viable once again in the eyes of some, evaluators around the league in the eyes of some teams around the league who may have had, you know, a decent draft grade on him, but had recently sort of written them off because of what

they saw. You know, there are still people in the league that look at him and say, you know, I think I could make that work. I mean, you know, the size, the arm strength, the quick release, there are things there. But there are probably more people in the league that think, no, not even worth trying. But if he came out and after six weeks or seven weeks or eight weeks, however long it's been, and he played well, and he played well with sort of an understanding that he really grew during these last seven or eight weeks, and they beat Seattle, and they're seven and seven, it could be sort of, well, dare I say, it could be a Kirk Cousins versus Cleveland Brown's

moment from 2012. That was the game for Kirk. RG3 went down. Kirk came in through for 313. They win. They keep their playoff hopes alive. And cousins became in everybody's eyes in that moment. Whoa, they got another guy too that can play.

But more importantly, not to make this about Kirk, as I want to do. This would be a great thing for the team. It would be a phenomenal thing for the team. Of course it would. First of all, if they win the game, he plays well. That's great for the team right now. Number two, they have zero chance right now of getting anything back for Dwayne of note. We're talking about a conditional late round pick at best. But if you went out there and played well, maybe it's something better than that. Maybe all

a sudden they've got a little bit of leverage. Maybe they can say, you know what, we're not, we're not interested in trading them. We're interested in keeping them now. They can create a real leverage perception with him. Don't you think you would need more than one performance to change people's minds? One would help. It wouldn't hurt. Yeah, of course it wouldn't hurt. I think you would need more than one. How about if Dwayne went out there started through for 300, three touchdowns, no picks, and they won 31 to 28. He drove him down the field at the end through a touchdown pass. And then are we talking about something he's never done something he's never done since he's been in and he hasn't had a lot of opportunities when you count him up okay he's had about 12 opportunities in total um okay but he has

not done that yet well he did so he'd be doing something he's never done before for this team well he actually drove him down the field twice to tie the game against detroit men to win the game you just described he's never had for Washington um no i don't think he's had that game that's true no um he had close to it though against the against the Giants last year. That was very close to it. But he has not had that game yet. So he will have to accomplish something that he's never done

before for this franchise. I'm talking about the end. That's your measure for basically people saying, oh, okay, this guy's pretty good. Let's trade for him. The Eagles game last year was the game where he kept driving him down the field, tying the score, taking the lead

in the fourth quarter, and then, you know, they ended up winning late. Anyway, but can you imagine if that happened? What would we, would we be talking on Monday about, hmm, who should start against Carolina if Alex is healthy? Oh, yeah, that'll be a debate. If he has that kind of game, he'd be damn right. That'll be that kind of debate. Easy to say it when you don't believe it can happen.

Anyway, I think, look, the reality, not the hypothetical. The reality is there's a chance Alex won't play. The reality is there's a chance that he may be slightly less than 100%, and they may be debating whether or not he should play. To me, if he's at that level that we saw against San Francisco, you have to start Duane Haskins, period. Okay. Who do you think is going to start today, Thursday?

Who do you think it's going to start on Sunday? I have no idea. I don't know what Alex's health is. I'm asking you for your opinion. I'm not asking you for a fact. It's impossible to have an opinion when I don't have the information. It's never impossible for you to have an opinion. If you're telling me that Alex isn't going to be 100% or he's going to be slightly less and that he's somewhat compromised.

I'm telling you, you know what you know. I know what I know. I can do it. Well, yes. I can do it. Why can you do it? Okay, Dwayne. Dwayne.

Okay, well, Alex is going to start. Okay, great. But in two hours, in two hours we made. Alex would have to have one of those devices that he had on his other leg around his calf for Ron Rivera not to start out. Okay, well, that's an opinion. That's an opinion. I've already told you that there's a good thing you recognize that. No, but it's one that is so definitive that it really doesn't matter what you know now.

because you think they're going to put Alex out there, even if he's got to put a jungle gym back on his leg to play because they don't want to play Dwayne. That's not, I don't, if Alex isn't healthy, I do think that they'll start Dwayne, but I don't know if Alex is going to be healthy. We may find out in two hours from now that Alex took every snap in practice today, and this conversation was totally worthless for everybody listening.

I think we're finding out. Your legs are a little bit shaky. Whose legs are shaky? You. I mean, I'm asking you to be definitive about something, and you just can't seem to do it. Well, I don't have the same sort of definitive opinion that you have. You would start Alex if he had COVID-19, and you'd try to sneak him out there without anybody trying to find out, because you think it would be such a disaster to start Dwayne. I don't.

No, I think they would start Alex. I'm not saying what I would do. I understand. I would start Stephen Montez. Instead of Alex. Well, Stephen Montes could be the backup on Sunday to Dwayne. Anyway, well, there you go. Something to consider.

I think I can tell you this. On social media, 80% of the responses basically were what you just said. Now, these were personal feelings, which if Alex can walk, you got to play him. I think that's really interesting. He sucked on Sunday. Look, Dwayne wasn't much better, but Alex really couldn't even protect himself. I think it was dangerous for him to be in that game. We didn't know it at the time, but the one sack he took,

he basically took it by lying down before he took a hit. You can't move the football with Alex Smith playing like that on Sunday. You need the Alex Smith that we saw against Pittsburgh. in the second half or against Dallas or against the giants in in in in in that second half we're you know minus the picks minus the picks you can't have Alex out there with a calf with a calf coach Rivera said um all right uh it's funny I mean I I don't have a calf you know I just have an ankle and a knee I'll tell you what it'd be hard to find your calf your legs are so I've never seen shorter legs on a human being in my life. I got a knee and an ankle and nothing in between.

That's basically true. If you've ever met Tommy before, nobody has shorter legs than Tommy. He's got all torso. He's all torso, baby, all torso. When we come back, we've got more NFL talk. Also, got to talk about this James Hardin's story from ESPN.com, because it involves some interesting Russell Westbrook feedback as well. All of that right after this word from one of our sponsors. You know, one thing we didn't mention, Antonio Gibson's likely out for a while. They signed Lamar Miller off the Bears practice squad yesterday, Tommy. He can't even play because he's got to pass the six days of negative COVID-19 tests before he can play a game. So his first game that he'd be eligible to play in would be the Carolina game.

The fact that they signed Lamar Miller kind of tells you that Antonio Gibson's not going to be back, you know, for the Carolina game at the, you know, maybe the Philly game at the earliest. I was, I used to be a big Lamar Miller fan. I remember when he was available, I wanted Washington to sign him. I always thought he was a really good back. And, you know, he had some really good years in Miami on bad teams. primarily. There was the one team I think that made it to the postseason. But interesting that they did that. I think that tells you a lot about the state of Antonio Gibson. Hey, how's Price Love doing? You know, J.P. told me the last week or the week

before, maybe it was Ben that, you know, he's basically done for the year and there's a lot of discussion that it's just never going to be right. The Neil, it just is never going to get back to a level that'll give him a legitimate. legitimate chance to be in NFL back. I know. It is a shame. He was an explosive player in college. And there was a lot of, there was, that was a tantalizing pick. Great pick. But as it turns out, it wasn't. All right. So I'm not going to make you do NFL power rankings today, but I am going to have you think about the following. How many teams in the NFC right now are obviously better than Washington in the way they're playing right now. How many teams in the NFC are obviously better?

Because I was thinking, as many people have here recently, if they make the playoffs, you know, who are they going to play? Well, the list of teams that they would likely play in the first round are from this is the list. Seattle, Arizona, Tampa Bay, Minnesota, Minnesota, or Chicago. It's very likely, or the Rams, I'm sorry, or the Rams. So there's like a list of six teams that would be potential first round opponents for Washington. On that list, the only team that they could potentially face in the first round that I wouldn't feel really good about or I wouldn't feel like they'd have much of a chance against would be the Rams. That would be the one team. Although Jared Goff will cough it up a bunch.

He'll turn it over a bunch and the defense is really good. But I just, we saw that game. It was different. It's a different team now, obviously. But the Rams, to me, are one of those teams that are obviously better. The Packers are obviously better. And the Saints are obviously better. That's the list for me.

Do you want to add somebody else to it? There are six teams. Okay. That are better. Okay. I'm listening. Okay. The Packers.

Yep. The Packers. The, the. Saints, the Rams, the Seahawks, the Bucks, and the Cardinals. And the Cardinals. Okay. So you basically have every team that's a potential playoff team, with the exception of Minnesota and Chicago, as teams that are obviously better than Washington. Yes, I do. I wouldn't say that any of those teams that you mentioned after the first three are obviously better. We're going to get a look at Seattle this week. I think Seattle

defensively they've gotten healthier and that's helped them. But we've seen teams like the Giants beat Seattle recently with Colt McCoy at quarterback. I think Green Bay, I think the teams in order in terms of their strength in the NFC are the Saints and Packers 1-2 in whichever order you want to put them in. The Saints may be the most complete team if Drew Breeze is healthy in playing in terms of offense defense. The Packers have Aaron Rogers, even though I don't love their defense. The Rams are also a good combo offensive defensive team. In fact, their defense is outstanding, but they've got Jared Gough. But I would still say the Rams are better. Those three teams are the teams that are obviously better than Washington for me.

After that, we'll see the Seattle game this weekend, and it could be a preview of a first-round game. Now, if Alex Smith isn't healthy and plays, or if Alex Smith isn't healthy and doesn't play, I don't think we're going to get the true preview of what we would get potentially the second weekend in January. I think Seattle's better. I just don't think they're so obviously better. Right now, Washington's defense is, you know, obviously the reason you can even put them in the conversation with some of the other teams after Green Bay, New Orleans, and the Rams. The other thing that I wanted to mention real quickly today,

somebody said to me on social media, I think it was, during the show this morning, they said in the midst of this conversation, look, they have one receiver, and then they have a bunch of guys that think they're twos, but they're probably threes. They have a tight end that the fan base now believes is a one tight end, but is really a two or a three tight end, but is getting better. They have a quarterback situation that's very much in flux, and you don't know what the hell is going to happen with the quarterback situation. And they went through a couple of other things.

And then I added the following to it. I said they have an elite defensive front, but they're not an elite defensive team right now. They're a very good defensive team. But there are four or five teams defensively in the league right now that I would take in front of Washington. There aren't front fours in the league that I would take in front of Washington's right now. I think their front four is elite. It's become elite faster than even I thought it would become elite. But there's still two to three players away from having an elite defense.

I think defensively, Pittsburgh is still a team that is better than Washington. The Saints, I think defensively are better than Washington overall. The Rams are better defensively than Washington overall. Indy and Tampa are both better, I think, than Washington overall defensively. And New England in many ways is just as good if not better. And I would say the same thing about Chicago. and Tommy Philly's defense is legit good, as is Denver's. But it's a very good defense with the potential to be an elite defense next year this time,

but they're not there yet. But they do have an elite front four. They have an elite front front. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. And they're doing it without Matt Ionitis, who arguably is still their best interior defensive linemen. They're still doing this.

But everyone team does it. You know, guys are hurt with every team. that's not necessarily here or there. But they're going to have a lot of depth on that defensive line. Like you pointed out, they need middle linebacker minimum. They need some helping the defensive backfield. Although Cam Curl looks like a keeper, doesn't he? Oh, yeah.

But what you said about Matt Ionitis, that's a hell of a statement. And I'm not automatically discounting it because I don't think anybody would have discounted in the earlier portion of the year. I always felt like Duran Payne was the most gifted and the most talented, and we've seen him start to live up to a lot of that. Like, I think Duran Payne has a chance to be a top five player at his position as an interior defensive lineman. And that's a hell of a thing to say when you're considering two young defensive ends that look like they may already be top five to top ten at their position in sweat and young. But you're right. Matt Ionitis has been missed.

Now, Settle's been good in that rotation, but, man, and Alan is terrific. Alan's been terrific. But, look, Matt Ionitis led the team in Sacks. How many interior linemen do that? I know. I know. You know, that doesn't happen very often. And he is the strongest player physically on that defensive front.

You know, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast. If I haven't, then I'm mentioning it for the first time. I may have mentioned it with you before. I know I've talked about it on the radio show. You know, early in the year, the defensive front, which is now the strength of the team, we all thought it would be the strength of the team, but now it's clearly the strength of the team. They were having a major issue with the position coach. The position coach being Mills, Sam Mills the third or Sam Mills Jr. or whatever.

I think it's Sam Mills the third. They were having major issues with. with just the defensive position coaches, the D-line position coaches, so much so that they were balking and Rivera was basically telling them to, you know, shut the blank up and listen to your coach. Rivera actually kind of alluded to this recently when he said, you know, it took a while for, you know, all of our guys defensively to buy into the way we teach things and the way we want them to play.

And there were, you know, some tough times early on in the first. season, but they've all bought in now. But a lot of issues early on with position coaches on defense and new technique and new teaching and new ways of playing the position. But apparently they've bought in now. But yeah, anyway. I might want to point out, because I don't usually do this, but I had that on Matt I-9is, by the way. What do you mean? I had that. You had what? About, I guess about five years ago when we were still doing the show.

Oh, I thought you were saying about the, because part of the pushback apparently was led by Matt Ionitis among others. I thought you're talking about this year and the issues with the coaching staff. My fault. No, no, no, no. I'm just reminding you that I had my Matt Ionitis. But why did you have Matt Ionitis? Because I saw him play. at Temple more than I normally would college football.

Right. Because my son went to Temple and Temple was pretty good that year. Yeah. So I had a chance to see more of them. And he, I mean, he had such a tremendous motor, as we like to say in the business. Yeah. That I figured that he'd be a good player. You were all over him.

I thought he'd be this good. Who was the other guy that you were all over for me, Stroudre? The Pocono Punisher. That was Chris Neal, who if he didn't have two knee injuries, that tore his knee apart probably would have been a great, you know, nose guard. He was a seventh round pick who started for them. May have been. You're right.

May have been. The Chris Neal's story. We never really got the whole thing. I wanted to mention one other quick thing. So Tressway was your NFC special teams player of the week. That followed last week, Tommy. Dustin Hopkins was the NFC special. special teams player of the week.

But I think after the game that Chase Young had on Sunday, which included an historic first for a rookie, he became the first rookie in NFL history and only the third player in 21 years to have six tackles a sack, two passes, defended, one forced fumble, two fumble recoveries, and one return for a touchdown in the game. I think a lot of people just assumed

that Chase Young would be the defensive player of the week in the NFC. Well, he wasn't. And he wasn't because Hassan Reddick of the Cardinals, linebacker for the Cardinals. By the way, Hassan Redick, Tommy? Temple. Huh, there we go. How do we get to that?

Did you remember watching Temple football with Hassan Redick on the team? I don't remember him. No, I don't. Hassan Reddick against the Giants for the Cardinals on Sunday had five sacks, six quarterback pressures, two other than sacks, tackles for losses, and he forced three fumbles in the game. That's one of the unbelievable statistical days by a defensive player I've ever heard of. That's a remarkable game.

Three forced fumbles, six quarterback pressures, two additional tackles for losses. The only thing he didn't do, which Chase did, was he didn't score a touchdown in the game. Yeah, yeah. I loved Hassan Redick coming out of Temple a few years back, and he has really developed into an outstanding player. But five sacks. He's got 10 on the year now. He got half of them in one game against Daniel Jones, who really was a statue. in that game against the Cardinals.

But that's why, if you were wondering why there hadn't been some sort of an announcement about Chase Young being the defensive player of the week, which he would have been on basically any other week of the year, it's because of the day that Hassan Reddick had for the Arizona Cardinals. Hope he has another day like that against the Philadelphia Eagles on Sunday because Washington could clinch the division before the final week, if you get Philadelphia, it'll lose this week and next or Washington to win. There's a better chance Tommy Washington could clinch before the final week of the year than be eliminated before the final week of the year.

In fact, I think it might be, well, no, it's not impossible. They could lose the next two and the Giants could win the next two and they would be eliminated before the final weekend of the year. So there's still that chance, but that seems like a long shot. with the Giants having the Browns and the Ravens on deck. That's a tough road. I want to talk about James Harden. You've got something you want to talk about. I also have a Thursday smell test pick for tonight's NFL game,

right after this word from one of our sponsors. I wanted to just quickly, Tommy, read a little bit from this James Hardin story that Tim McMahon wrote at ESPN.com. It's a pretty interesting, insightful story about Hardin and the Houston Rockets with James Hardin in recent years. There was a lot here that I didn't know. And I have a sense that a lot of NBA fans didn't realize a lot of this was going on in

Houston, that Hardin's been a major, major problem. Not just a major problem, but basically has run the franchise, which we see in the NBA much more than in other leagues. But there's something specific to Russell Westbrook, who makes his debut tonight, by the way, for the Wizards. Westbrook is not playing the night. Oh, shit. Are you serious? Did they just announce that? Somebody posted on Twitter. Bradley Beale is, but Westbrook is out. Damn. There goes my Thursday night at least first hour at 7 o'clock. I really was looking forward to watching Westbrook tonight. I know it's an NBA preseason game. But I I really was interested in watching that.

Okay, I didn't know that. Anyway, back to the Hardin story, because it involves, it involves Westbrook. So Tim McMahon writes this lengthy story that starts as follows. The Houston Rockets culture in the James Hardin era, which bridges two owners and now four head coaches, might be best summed up by a former staffer's three words, quote, whatever James wants, closed quote. Now, just so everybody is up to speed, if you're not following this, Hardin wants to be traded. He wants out of Houston, even though John Wall's there. And by the way, John Wall looked really good over the weekend in his first few preseason games. Yeah, I know. Big deal. Health-wise. Tell me how he is after game 77. I got you. So I'm going to read some of this stuff about Harden. It basically talks about a guy that did whatever the hell he wanted and had a whole,

organization basically cowtowing to him the entire time. Unless they were on the front end of a back-to-back set, it was essentially a sure thing that the Rockets would stay overnight or even an extra day after games in Hardin's favorite cities, L.A. and Phoenix, among others. If the Rockets had two or three days between games, it was a good bet that Hardin would call for an off day of practice. and charter a private jet to party in Las Vegas or in another city. He always got an excused absence from the first practice after the All-Star break. For the same reason, he would stay in that city wherever the All-Star game was or travel to another to party.

Now, for those of you that missed it, he posted on Instagram a bunch of photos from the club with no masks on in large gatherings recently. Those currently within the franchise say that stuff is just James being James. And then they talked about other things like he called the shots on all personnel moves, both on the roster and the coaching staff, a power he would flex often to push for the firing of head coaches like Kevin McHale or the departures of Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. The Rockets considered it good business to do what Hardin wanted to keep this historically elite player happy. But when Hardin tried to rush the Rockets to trade him in recent weeks, despite the lack of an offer that they considered to be fair value, it wasn't the annual ultimatum for improvement. It was something more. By leaving the Rockets twisting in the wind while camp opened with little communication, Hardin made his absence the focus of rookie

head coach Stephen Silas's first day of practice. By blowing off the NBA's COVID-19 protocols, partying maskless during the pandemic and boasting about it on Instagram, Harden revealed what would come if he doesn't get his way. One rocket staffer said, yep, if he doesn't get his way, he is going to act up. He's never heard no before. A couple of other things here real quick. What a great league.

What a great league. I'll get to the Westbrook stuff in a moment. But multiple Rockets officials in this story written by Tim McMahon at ESPN.com acknowledged that the entire organization has been complicit in the culture that has been created over the last eight years. We knew who the boss of the organization was, a former Rockets assistant coach said. That's part of the deal when you go to Houston. The players, coaches, GM, owner all know. I don't blame James. James, I blame the organization. It's not his fault. He did what they allowed him to do. And then there was this. If they have multiple days off, everybody knows James is going to fly somewhere else and party. But then he's going to come back and have a 50-point triple double, so they're okay with it. Chris Paul had issues with him and said the lack of attention and discipline he wanted out as well

and also complained that when Hardin wasn't involved in a play, he didn't participate offensively. Sometimes he didn't even feel like crossing half court. Well, if you're an NBA fan like I am, and Tommy, you know this too. The Rockets are the number one ISO ball team in the league. really disgusting to watch if you if you are any anything approaching sort of old school team basketball. I mean, they got they literally are a team that will hand the ball to James Hardin and the other four players will just stand there and watch. Well, Chris Paul complained that when it was his turn to go ISO ball, sometimes Hardin didn't even cross half court. He wasn't even

interested. The Hardin pushed Paul out. Paul wanted to go anyway, and Hardin demanded that they find a way to bring his childhood friend Russell Westbrook from Oklahoma City to Houston. The Rockets paid a steep price for Westbrook. They gave up Chris Paul, 2024 and 2026 first round picks, and swap rights to first round picks in 2021 and 2025. Sources say that Westbrook frequently expressed his displeasure during the season with not

being able to play my game, as he put it. There were questions about Harden and Westbrook as a fit to begin with, but it actually started pretty well, and Westbrook was playing pretty well. But then Westbrook got frustrated with his old buddy, his childhood friend. He said the culture was way too casual for him. And even though he realized and benefited from some superstar privileges in Oklahoma City, nothing compared to what Hardin got in Houston. The source said that Westbrook got privileges in Oklahoma City,

but there was always a discipline to Westbrook, the discipline you might see in a military unit. Westbrook was, and by the way, this is exactly what Scott Brooks told me last week on the radio show. Scott Brooks told me he said, Russell Westbrook is a hard-ass disciplinarian. It's about practice. It's about the team. It's about being professional.

No matter what we think of him as a player, and I love him, but I also know that the limitations, apparently he is a major leader and one hell of a teammate, even though Durant seemed to want to move on from him and others have before as well. But Westbrook didn't tolerate tardiness. With the Rockets scheduled departure times were treated as mere suggestions by Hardin and others. Quote, nothing ever starts on time. The plane is always late.

The bus is never on time. It's just an organized AAU team. On one occasion from the Florida bubble, Hardin waited to get his daily COVID-19 testing until just before the Rockets film session was scheduled to start. When he wasn't on time, Westbrook barked, start the film, start. without him. Dan Tony explained that they'd have to just start over when Hardin arrived, which didn't do much to calm Westbrook. Whether Westbrook or Hardin wanted out first isn't clear, but they no longer wanted to play together a season after the Rockets mortgaged their

draft future to make it happen. I'll tell you what, Tommy, seriously, I hate watching the Rockets play and have hated watching the Rockets play in recent years. I just can't stand it. Yeah. And I never thought it had a chance of winning. Now here's the question about Westbrook. Yeah. Was his reaction that he was offended by the practices or that he was jealous of the practices? No, no.

No, the suggestion is that Westbrook is much more about team and much more about discipline and couldn't believe that it was treated so casually. And that Harden ran the organization in a way in which he didn't. didn't think the team benefited from it. Okay, well, that's what we're led to believe. That may be true. And Brooks sort of told me the same thing. He had his own superstar agenda in Oklahoma City, the article pointed out.

Yes, that he benefited from superstar privileges, but that the kind of culture that existed in Houston he wouldn't have stood for. I get that. But my point is, if you get special privileges someplace at one radio station, if you're the top dog and you move to another radio station and some guy is getting better special privileges that you get. I know what you're saying.

I know what you're saying. There's a bit of a jealousy factor there. Yeah, but if the privileges that you're getting at the radio station are after working five straight double shifts, you get a day off, and then you get to the other radio station, and the other guy basically refuses to work a double shift, refuses to do, by the way, what you and I used to do all the time, right? Hey, do you guys mind doing six hours today?

No, no problem, and we would do it. But if the star at the other station refuses to work a double shift, and oh, by the way, still gets the day off, it's apples and oranges. Okay, I get that. I mean, look, I'm not doubting that Russell Westbrook has a level of discipline about him. So that may be the case. I'm just kind of curious if there was, you know, I mean, if Russell Westbrook had been given the opportunity to have the same superstar privileges, would he have taken advantage of them? And what we're learning is probably not.

The answer is no, but let me lead into sort of a separate conversation because it deals with Russell Westbrook. So when Brooks was telling me last week about how Westbrook is just on people all the time, and he's very much. Apparently, I mean, he almost indicated like he's a massive, like planned, scheduled by the minute, you know, like almost the Tom Coughlin version of the NBA. Like he's like or the Lombardi version where, you know, the meeting starts at one for most coaches, but with Westbrook, it starts at five minutes to one. You better be there at 1255. Like Brooks is explaining a guy that's super organized in his life, like super scheduled. And he hates when he gets off schedule. And he's very demanding.

And so I did ask Brooks. I said, you know, in your league, basically, I wonder whether or not somebody who is so maybe suffocating as, you know, a guy that wants to adhere to the very minute of the schedule and he's demanding of his teammates, if that just gets old for some of his teammates. And, of course, Brooks didn't answer. I don't think if he felt that it was too much for his teammates that he would tell me.

And he said, no, this is a professional thing. And the kind of players that, you know, we want the kind of players that are going to respond to that kind of leadership and that kind of, you know, desire. But, you know, look, can you imagine, like, you'd be the worst. What if I, as a teammate, just kept getting on you saying, God damn it, you got to be in here by, by, you know, when we had the show at noon. Tommy, if you're not in here by 1115, we don't have time to plan. We don't have time to get prepared for the show.

You would have hated it. You would have left that show within a month. What I would have done. When we took the court, did I perform? Well, but see, yes. See, that would have been it. See, because in this business that I've been in for 40 years, you're judged by what.

you put by people who with intelligence you are, you're judged by what you write. I know. I know. I love the way you always go to the right first. But my point is, my point B, I'm not a radio host or a podcast host. But my point is. I know what your point is. That I've, I've spent a whole career basically managing myself.

I understand that. My point is, is you've managed your entire life around being a lone ranger. You don't like to be managed. And so if you had a teammate or a coach that overmanaged, micromanaged you, it wouldn't go over well. And I'd reduce him to about two feet tall within a couple of weeks. Well, okay. Well, my point is that Westbrook may have all of these things that on the surface it sounds like really great that he is, you know, a stickler and he's disciplined and he demands it from his teammates. But to me, I would guarantee you that there are a lot of his teammates over the years that are probably like,

oh, Jesus Christ, enough already. Like, I got to get the hell out of here. I can't take it anymore. I can't believe we're talking about an NBA player who's too tough on his team. I know. I know, but I think we're learning something about Westbrook. You know, that it wasn't necessarily the fact that he was uncoachable or that you couldn't play with him. But maybe he's just too, maybe he, maybe he's Jordan, but just without being Jordan.

Yeah. You know, without the winning. Without the, without the championships. Right. Yeah. Look, I got to tell you, I remain still. I'm very curious and interested in this wizard's team. Me too.

With Russell Westbrook. Much more than I've been in quite a long time. Now, you know, I've been a Westbrook critic. I know. But I recognize how talented he is and how. how much fun he is to watch play. I don't think you can win a championship with him, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's a great player.

I'm looking forward to it. You know, and it may be something that grows old very quickly. You know, it could be one of those things where, like, when the regular season starts, I mean, I'm a wizard's fan, so I watch a lot of games anyway. But when they turn bad like they have, you know, recently, you know, I like everybody else, tune it out. And this may not go well, and I may end up tuning it out as well.

But I am definitely intrigued to see what it looks like, to see what he looks like in a wizard's uniform with Beal. You know, I'll tell you, the guy they drafted, he has no, he's not lacking in confidence based on the first preseason game that I watched some highlights of from last weekend. But anyway, enough about them. You've got something you want to talk about and we'll do that right after this word from one of our. our sponsors. Hey guys, it's the most wonderful time of the year, and that can't end soon enough. We all deserve a win. We all deserve a little extra money in our pocket. We all deserve to have a little fun. The only place you're guaranteed to get all three is my bookie. They're the only sports book, Tommy, that doesn't care whether you were naughty or nice this year. They've got gifts for everybody.

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You just have to use my code, my promo code, Kevin, D.C. Real quickly, Tommy, before we finish up with something that you wanted to get to, early smell test weekend pick, chargers plus three tonight. They're a major anti-public side. The public believes the Raiders in a must-win situation for them. I don't think they're eliminated with a loss tonight from the AFC playoff picture, but they're close to eliminated with a loss. I like the Chargers plus three.

The public's all over the Raiders laying a short number at home. So there it is. A Thursday night smell test pick, I'll have all the other picks tomorrow. All right, I know you wanted to talk about something that was announced the other day. Yeah, Major League Baseball has come out and said

they're going to recognize Negro League statistics of Negro League players as regular Major League numbers. and they're going to incorporate those numbers into the regular recognized record books. Now, there's a couple of caveats here. I mean, Negro League Baseball has been around since the 1880s, 1860s even. But they're only starting from 1920 when the Negro National League started, when Rue Foster started the most recognized of all the official leagues, the Negro National League, to 1948.

year after Jackie Robinson broke in. Like there were some, like Hank Aaron played for the Indianapolis clowns in the early 1950s. Those statistics won't be counted. So once baseball was integrated, then the numbers that continued afterwards aren't going to count. It's just for a 28-year period. Right. And look, there have been some people in a labor of love that have painstaking.

through going through newspaper clippings, box scores, anecdotes and stuff, put together what they believe to be a credible statistical group of numbers put up by Negro League players. Now, the challenge in this is determining when these numbers were actually compiled. Negro League teams only played against each other maybe 60, 70 times a year. You know, maybe a little bit more, but not much more because they made a lot of money barnstorming around the country playing semi-pro teams, playing the local factory team. You know, back then in those days, you know, like the factory in all these small towns, they sponsored a baseball team.

Really? Oh, yeah, used to factory teams where you're, you know, yeah, used to factory teams where, you know, huge. So like in a steel town, you know, in Pittsburgh, some big steel company factory might have a baseball team, but yes. And what would they do? Just play other factories? Like softball now? Well, they would play in some kind of semi-pro league. Oh, in a semi-pro league. Yeah, they play in a semi-pro league. So a lot of Negro league, like, I'll give you an example. Josh Gibson, supposedly hit over 800 career home runs. Okay?

Right. If you just took that number, then he's the all-time home run leader. Right. But most of those home runs came against other competition. So how are they going to figure all this out? Well, somebody has already determined, I think, that against Negro League teams gives and hit about 240, maybe 245. Oh, really? Home runs.

So basically 550. something, 500 and whatever, 60 less. So, well. So it's going to be, but like Satchell Page, Satchel Page pitched a lot of games over this time. Wasn't he pitching like into his late 50s? Yeah, and he pitched. He's got major league numbers already because he eventually did make the major leagues in his 50s. But, you know, the Satchel Page pitched 2,500 games, supposedly.

over his, over his career. Well, a lot of those starts were, again, we're against barnstorming teams or teams other than Negro League teams. And in those starts, he would pitch like three innings. You know, the people paid to see Satchel Page. Right. He'd come, he pitched three innings, and then he leave. Right.

You know, so it's going to be hard to quantify what was an official outing against Negro League teams for Satchel Page. But his numbers will start to kill. And there'll be, it's probably a substantial amount. I'm sure he's pitched no hitters, legitimate no hitters against Negro League teams during that time that will wind up now in the official record books. It'll be fun. It'll be interesting.

It could be emotional. And there could be some people who are upset by the outcome who can't understand it. I think it's a great development. But it doesn't automatically mean that Satchel Page is going to be the winning-ingist pitcher of all time and Josh Gibson is going to be the greatest home run hitter ever. It's going to be a bit confusing for some people. But I think it's worthwhile. What are the baseball historians really think?

You know, what are they thinking right now? What are the guys that you know and other Hall of Fame voters? Like your contemporaries as Hall of Fame baseball writers, what's the consensus? Is there one? Well, I think the consensus is that Negro League statistics should count. it's major league statistics. But again, Negro League statistics. The Negro League teams competing against other Negro League teams.

Are we sure that all of Babe Ruth's home runs that none of them came? Because some of those teams, didn't they barnstorm a little bit too? No, Babe Ruth's numbers were all Major League numbers. Okay. What are the other, what are the, if it's brainstorming numbers, Babe Ruth would have about 2,000 runs. Give me the numbers. Have you already given me the numbers that people are most concerned?

about the Josh Gibson home run numbers and the satchel page, you know, games pitched numbers, which would probably lead to strikeout or whatever else on wins, everything. I mean, those are the two biggest names that people come in mind. And the Gibson home run numbers want people, it's on his, his hall fame plaque talks about over 800 career home runs. You know, I think it says so on the statue of Josh Gibson that's outside Nationals Park talks about over 800 home runs. I just want to alert people that that's not a Negro League number, and that's probably not going to be what's counted among the statistics.

They still, there's still going to be people, and there might be some kind of committee or commission. I'm not sure how Major League Baseball is doing this to determine what's a legitimate Negro League statistic to count. Right. But I have a lot of faith and trust in the people who do this because they do it with, it's a labor of love and they do it out of such compassion and, and,

and, uh, and enthusiasm for what Negro League baseball was. These were great players who didn't get a chance to play against major league competition. But, and again, the Negro leagues weren't filled with all major leaguers.

You know, I don't want to give the impression that this was a league of Superman. Right. Of great, uh, major league players playing against C. other but there were great players in that league who would have been great major league players too right and now they're going to get a little bit more recognition you know stolen base numbers

you know guys like cool pop a bell and whatever his stolen base numbers will be that'll now be in the record book somewhere i don't think it's going to have a huge impact in and a shift uh as to real dramatic numbers but they'll be in the record books now and what you just said um also makes sense with respect to not counting anything after 1948, because if all, you know, once the best black players moved into the major leagues, the Negro League competition level became less. It became less. Yes.

It was still, I still think it was pretty good. I would have gone maybe up to 1954 because, you know, baseball still, after Jackie came in, baseball still had a quote of system. Of course, of course. know, and there were still a lot of players who were playing in the Negro leagues that existed then that would have been in the major leagues if there wasn't a quota system to keep them out. But that's the number they choose, 1948, and I think it'll be interesting to watch this develop. So another thing that you said, and maybe I missed this, but you said that typically they played like 75 games a year,

and then the rest of the games they played were sort of barnstorming games. Yeah, and we're talking over two, 250 games a year, total. Right, but the 75 games are the games that they're going to count. That's what I think. Yes, that's what I think is going to happen. So, you know, the aggregate, you know, numbers of career home runs or career strikeouts, as long as it's, you know, confined to the 75 games, the real games they played. It's one thing.

What about averages? Because, you know, in Major League Baseball, correct me if I'm wrong, But you have to have a certain number of at bats as an example to qualify for batting average title. Or you've got to have a certain number of at bats. I mean, what about the average numbers? This is going to be interesting because I think I've read somewhere that Josh Gibson one year was reported to have hit 441 over a Negro league season. Now, obviously... That's exactly what I'm talking about.

What's the record? Ted Williams hit over 400 in 1941, right? Oh, there's there, no, I think the record might be, I don't know if it's, I forget, I think it's 432 or something like that. Oh, I forget who had it. Is Ted William just the last to have done it? Yeah, he's the last one. Okay, got it.

To have done it. Now, according to this article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the number, the 441 number will count I'm getting to it right now because you have to have a certain number of it bats for a batting average to count. It will qualify as the MLB's new single season record for batting average. Now, I'm not sure how the formula that they use for doing that. It's a per game thing as opposed to a per season thing. But they are going to count that. interesting. Now. So Josh Gibson hit 441, and that would be, that's going to be the new record.

Yes. Well, that will never be broken. No, no, that will, no one's ever going to hit 400 again. Probably not. Yeah. Now, I'm looking the 441. Is there a hit streak number? Is there a 50, is there better than a 56 hit game streak in the Negro leagues? There may be. I don't know, to be honest with you. You know, I only wrote a baseball and cyclopedia about them. You don't. Not like I know a lot about them. Well, I mean, it's available for a dollar on Amazon right now. No, it's not. It costs a lot of money.

Oh, it does? Yes. You check it out. Go ahead and check it out. Okay, I will. Yes. I'll check it out. How much am I going to have to pay for it?

Or am I going to get a free copy? I'll bet you hundreds of dollars. Okay. So do you think DiMaggio's 56 game hitting street could be in jeopardy of being a flipped? I don't know. Okay. I would think, like, what's the, what's the record that everybody thinks is unbreakable. 56 games, right? Or is it 400? That no one will ever hit 400 again or nobody?

Well, no one, I mean, Cy Young won 511 career baseball games. Talking about season records. Okay. Season records, people would say 56, hitting it, hitting street. And that's not necessarily a season record, because I think with DiMaggio, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't that span over two seasons? I don't think it did. Oh, okay. My first. No, it's it. God, you know, I remember some of those, you know, that used to be a big story. You know, when I was young, like Pete Rose, you know, he's at 36. Paul Molitor, I remember, had a long hitting streak that every night it was like such a big deal. You know, did he get another hit? And they would break in live, you know, to show his at-bats. You know, there have been a couple of those. But we haven't had many of those in recent years, have we?

I think, you know, I think Ryan Zimmerman had like a 35 game hit streak several years ago. I think so. Yeah, Ryan Zimmerman, I think, has the longest streak in franchise history. Yeah. Yeah. The Encyclopedia of Negro League Baseball, written by yours truly, is a used copy is available for $38. Oh, wow. Right now.

So where can they get it? I'll just go to Google. It's like fail for lots of places. That sounds like a phenomenal holiday gift idea. Now I just saw another used copy for $11. Well, let's average it out. Okay, we're right there at around $24.5. $24.50 somewhere.

All right. What else you got for me today? I got nothing else. I got nothing else either. Enjoy the day. I'll be back tomorrow with Cooley on a. a football Friday to preview Washington and Seattle.