The Kevin Sheehan Show - Best Crowd In Years?

Episode Date: December 13, 2022

Kevin and Thom today rambled through conversations about Mike Leach, Angel Martin, Larry Bird, the greatest NBA offensive rebounders, and more before getting to some football. The boys finished up the show with a discussion about what kind of crowd Sunday Night's rematch between Washington and New York will attract. Is there a chance that one of the most important late-season home regular season games in nearly a decade will produced a legit home field advantage? The guys discussed, gave their answers including projections of the fan-split and the actual attendance.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show is Kevin. I am here. Tommy is here. And the show today is brought to you by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.orgie.

Use my promo code Kevin, D.C. They'll double your first deposit all the way up to $1,000. Tommy, I was checking this morning for updated playoff odds, meaning, you know, yes or no on making the playoffs. And Washington two weeks ago was like plus. They were an underdog to make the playoffs. Now they are a prohibitive favorite to reach the postseason. They are minus 219 to make the playoffs.

Meantime, the New York football giants are just minus 110. Now, Washington is a four and a half point favorite in the big Sunday night showdown at my bookie. But how about this one? This one may be the most interesting of the playoff odds on my bookie. Detroit has climbed from plus 1,500 two weeks ago to now plus 300 to make the postseason. They are coming hard. I would have loved to have gone back a couple of weeks ago and played Detroit at plus 1,500 to make the playoffs. I mentioned yesterday with the way the NFL is shaking out right now,

that there's actually a possibility that in the NFC, Washington, Detroit, and Carolina could all make the postseason. And then in the AFC, while a much bigger long shot, Jacksonville's not out of it in the AFC South. They're two games behind Tennessee. They've got one in hand against Tennessee, meaning they've already beat them once, and they have another game again. against them at the end of the year at home. But imagine that four teams that started one in four, Washington started one and four, Carolina started one in five, and Detroit and Jacksonville both started one and six, if all four of those teams made the postseason.

Now, I think there's a pretty good chance two of the four will make the postseason, which will be an all-timer in terms of, you know, you get every once in a while a team that started off really poorly, one in three, you know, occasionally like Washington did a few years ago, at one in five, they won the division. But I mean, to get that many teams to make the playoffs, or at least half of them after, you know, in mid-October, late October, they were among, you know, the worst teams, perceived teams in the league would really be, well, it kind of goes to show you, like I say every year. You just can't figure the NFL out. and it changes so quickly.

But maybe there is some rhyme and reason to this. What do you think it is? First of all, as a Washington fan, how great is it if you're a fan of this team to have your team win and not even play that week? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what a great feeling that is. Yep.

You know, you're just sitting back with not a care of the world, watching the world unfold, and all of a sudden, your team is better off this week than it was last week. That's a great feeling. That's a really good feeling. Yeah, they jumped two spots. Now, I'm just conjecting here, speculating a hypothesis, as the police chief said in Miller's Crossing. what if there's some kind of pattern of teams having these poor starts and then coming on at the end with the reduction in preseason play in games and basically reduction overall on preseason importance

I mean there have been a lot of coaches that have said September now is basically the extended preseason I mean, somebody who's smarter than may should study that to see if there's some kind of real pattern here that they could possibly connect with the reduction in preseason and the number of teams who wind up making the playoffs who start poorly. And if that's an unusual amount compared to other years. Yeah, I'd like to actually see... So have your staff work on that.

I've already got them started. I just texted my staff. and they're going to get started. Okay. You know, I'm trying to find the preseason standings from this year just to see if, let me just see if they post it. Do they post pre-season? So the preseason, Washington was 0 and 3. Detroit was 1 and 2.

Carolina was 2 and 1. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't. don't know. I just don't think preseason Tommy in the past, in the recent past anyway, was taken very seriously. I just, look, the bottom line is that may make it more likely that a team starts, you know, 0 and 3 or 1 in 3 or 1 and 4, but you have you have two teams, you have Detroit who's 1 in 6 and now is surging towards the playoffs. I mean, one in six takes them, you know, schedule-wise towards the end of October. I mean, they became one in six on October 30th.

And, you know, we're basically on any power rankings which come out, you know, this time of the week, they were like somewhere between 30 and 32nd, as was Washington, as was Carolina, as was Jacksonville. And, yeah. And then there were other teams. Let me just see other teams that have kind of gone in the other direction. You know, at the end of October, the Giants were, you know, considered a top 10-ish kind of a team. Now they're going the other way. Seattle was, you know, a top-12-ish kind of a team.

They're going the other way. The Rams, you know, didn't start off super well. They were two and one. They were three and three. I guarantee you in the power rankings when they were three and three, people still thought, oh, they'll get it together. But I think actually, and I was talking to Mike Jones, Mike is now with the athletic, and he's always been one of my favorites.

We were talking about it this morning, and I said, I think this is just, it's a strange year in particular. First of all, it's a year where the great defense has been resuscitated in the NFL, and it is leading the way for a lot of these teams, more teams than usual are excellent defensive teams and are winning games because of it. It's also kind of a resuscitation of the running game this year, in part because especially in the NFC, you don't have the great quarterbacks. You know, Russell Wilson's gone.

Aaron Rogers didn't have anything that was playing with him. Now, don't count them out quite yet, by the way. Tom Brady, that offensive line was a mess and he's getting older. And right now, you know, you could make the case that the best quarterback in the NFC is Jalen Hertz, who before the season started, you know, it was basically a 50-50 split, if not weighted more heavily in the people that didn't believe that Hertz was the right guy and that Hertz was probably going to play his final year here in Philadelphia and that they wouldn't, you know, extend him.

Now they're going to have to extend him because he's going to win the MVP. And if he doesn't, he's going to finish second. You know, Cousins is a good quarterback. He's a very good quarterback. They're still alive. They're bad on defense. The, you know, the Buccaneers are just a bad team. You know, the only reason they're hanging on for dear life is they're in a bad division.

And then, you know, in the AFC, you still have Mahomes. You still have Josh Allen. But I'll tell you that both of them aren't what they were or expected to be. I mean, they throw a lot of interceptions. You got to include Justin Herbert in that conversation. You do. And he's so exciting to watch. He's so exciting to watch.

He's up and down. His team has been up and down. I'm kind of rooting for them to make the postseason. But yeah, it's a lot of things that come together. Yeah, go ahead. And people, I mean, basically you've got a runoffense, you know, tough defense kind of tone this season in the NFL. And people,

you know, say people want to watch score, and they want to watch high, high, you know, high flying offenses and things like that. But people are still watching. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not like, not like the product is being damaged by this, by this, you know,

by this retro 90s type of of game we've got going on here with defenses and running games. to be honest with I've always enjoyed it more. Maybe that's because that's what I grew up with. I don't mind it.

I mean, the 55-45-45 games, it's still arena-like for me. Yeah, I don't mind it at all. I like hard-nosed defense. I like running the football. You know, I want to talk about Mike Leach here in a moment who passed away, but Mike Leach once had a saying that I read earlier this morning that, you know, he was talking about offensive balance in football. And he's like, balance, balance, 50, 50.

He said, it's the dumbest thing essentially that I've heard of. He said, whatever you need to do to move the football is what you should do, no matter what the percentage breakdown is. The goal is to move the football. And I do agree with that. But, yeah, I mean, I think the lack of a lot of really good quarter. which means you've really got two-thirds of the teams without an elite quarterback or without an obvious really good quarterback right now.

You know, maybe a third of the league has, you know, what you would call a franchise kind of quarterback or a quarterback where you're not thinking about making a change. The two-thirds of the league is still probably in search of. But it's, yeah, I kind of like it. I don't mind it. I've never thought that offense is the reason, great offense and high-scoring games are the reason that the ratings are going up. I've never thought that. I think just people love the NFL.

They love football in general. They love the rhythm of this time of year. They love the scheduled nature of it. They love the game. And, you know, it doesn't matter if it's 1310 or 1613. That can be just as exciting for me. anyway as 55, you know, to 48, or 48, 45. But scoring is down and there are probably a lot of reasons why.

I do want to circle back to the NFL and to the commanders, and we can do that. But I did want to talk about Mike Leach a little bit because I've been, you know how much I love college football. And I've always been a fan of Mike Leach's, you know, personality, you know, his background. And, you know, one of the things where this story hits a little bit close to home is in 2010 when Kevin Anderson was the athletic director at Maryland and he fired Ralph Freedion. You know, after Freedgin had earned the ACC coach of the year in 2010. I still think it's just one of the dumbest, most insane decisions of all time. And, you know, Kevin Anderson was looking for somebody who was more of a, you know, glad hand. you know, a fundraiser. Let's go out and meet with, you know, all of the, you know, donors.

And Ralph, all he wanted to do was sit in his office and get ready for the next opponent. And Ralph is one of the true, you know, offensive minds and gurus and quarterback gurus, you know, during basically his time with Bobby Ross until the time he stopped coaching at the end of 2010. It was a stupid, it was a stupid decision. But Maryland football and the popular... One that they have not, that they may be finally just recovering from. This is the best that it's been, certainly with Mike Loxley. And by the way, Mike Loxley coached for Ralph Rijin.

Mike Loxley was a product of the Friesian era here at Maryland. That's where he, you know, got his start and got his footprint. Was, you know, working with Ralph and being, you know, one of the big time recruiters that brought in a lot of talent for Ralph's teams in the early 2000s. But anyway, at the end of 20,000. 2010, when they inexplicably fired Ralph Friesian, Mike Leach was available. He had coached Texas Tech to prominence. You know, I remember the game. I mean, one of the games of his coaching career, they were top five. Texas, I think, was number one in the country. They had Michael Crabtree, and at Texas Tech in Lubbock, they beat number one Texas. And it was a great game.

and Mike Leach had Texas Tech really at a place that they had never been. And by the way, have not been back to, really, as a program. And he was fired from Texas Tech. It was over allegations from remember Craig James, the running back as part of the, you know, the Pony Express at SMU that shut down the program with Eric Dickerson. And then Craig James was in the NFL for a while, you know, with the Patriots. And by the way, Tommy, you may remember this.

He was one of the first players, I'm pretty sure. You may correct me on this. I believe I'm looking at up right now that Craig James was one of the first players signed by the Washington Federals of the USFL. He was. That sounds right. In fact, he was drafted in the NFL by the Patriots in the seventh round, but he started his professional career with the Washington Federals in 1983,

and then he had a five-year career and a pretty productive career for the Patriots from 84 to 88. He played for the Patriots in that Super Bowl against the 85 Bears. Anyway, this wasn't meant to be a conversation about Craig James. Craig James' son played for Mike Leach at Texas Tech, and there was an allegation by Craig James' son that he was treated poorly by Mike Leach while he was having concussion symptoms. And he was locked in some sort of dark closet and told to stand up. And there were a lot of allegations about Leach that he denied.

It went to trial. Ultimately, Leach was dismissed by tech. And he was available in that offseason after Ralph Freedging got hired. And Maryland seriously considered Mike Leach. but instead hired Randy Edsel. And I remember the time. It's so unbelievable now. You and I were doing a show together, and I was totally in the camp of, come on, hire Mike Leach.

Are you kidding me? Because as great of a coach as Ralph Regian was, and Ralph was an exceptional, exceptional college football coach. Maryland went to seven bowl games in 10 years, and he won five of them. They won their only ACC title since Bobby Ross was there, and he coached with Bobby Ross in the 80s. But we're talking about an expanded ACC that had Florida State in it when he got in there. And he won the ACC title. By the way, they didn't beat Florida State that year, but they still won the ACC title in his first year in 2001. And then he had them consistently in the top, you know, anywhere from the top 10 to the top 25 for about his first four or five years at Maryland.

And then, you know, a couple rough years came back with a couple of really good years and ended with an ACC coach of the year award and was run out of there. But part of the reason was that Maryland football, they had, remember the stadium that they have now, Tommy, which was, you know, it was added on with a lot of state funds, with a lot of borrowed money. This is why Maryland ultimately ended up in the Big Ten. This was the root cause is that Debbie Yao, the athletic director, because of Ralph's. success in football. Now, at the same time, Gary's, you know, going to Final Four's winning a national championship and as Maryland, you know, is a powerhouse and in college basketball all the while that Ralph is killing it in football.

You know, 2002, Maryland was the NCAA basketball champion and they were a top 10 football program. But they added on to the stadium. They added on to Bird Stadium. and they borrowed a lot of money to do it. And they overbuilt it. And not only that, they built it in a very unattractive way. I mean, you've been to the stadium. It's just not a well-done stadium.

And because they started to lose a little bit more and not be as dominant, even though Ralph had a great final year, that attendance started to go down. And then when they hired Randy Edsel on the program, essentially kind of fell apart for all intents and purposes, that got him into this big-time debt situation that the Big Ten came in and bailed them out of. I mean, that's a simplistic way of describing it. But they had a chance to hire Mike Leach, and Kevin Anderson decided not to do it.

He thought he was too much of a risk. And I remember saying at the time, you need some punch here. You need not only a good football coach, which Leach was. He had won everywhere, you know, at Texas Tech and going back to, you know, IR. Willough Valley and Valdaston, all these different places, because I'll get into his legacy as a football man in a second. But it was just such a disappointment for a lot of Maryland fans who were like, Mike Leach is going to put us on the map again, you know,

and I think he would have won big at Maryland in the ACC. I mean, he proved everywhere he went that he wouldn't create a blue blood and he couldn't beat the blue bloods consistently in the leagues he was in. but he always had an upper echelon team in each of those leagues. But Kevin Anderson decided to hire Randy Edsel instead. Well, you know, I'm betting that Mike Leach was, for most athletic directors, he was the kind of coach that was probably a nightmare to them in the sense that you couldn't control a guy like Mike Leach. I agree with that.

I mean, you're the boss, the athletic director. And I doubt if most athletic directors where Mike Leach worked felt like they were the boss. Okay. And I'll bet you that had something to do. I'll bet you Kevin Anderson and say, you know, I'm not going to be able to control this guy. I mean, I want to be able to control my coaches. Now, it takes somebody with a certain self-confidence in themselves to be able to recognize, you know, the value of somebody like Mike Leach.

saying, you know, we'll figure it out as we go along. But I suspect that was part of it. I mean, really on the surface, Mike Leach for Randy Edsel, it seems just as absurd now as it did then, and it was absurd then. Yeah, now, Randy Edsel, remember, was coming off a good run at Yukon. I mean, they had one the festival or whatever it was. But, you know, you're right. I mean, Mike Leach was not going to be for everybody, and he wasn't going to be for every program. And Kevin Anderson, you know, and I had a lot of issues with Kevin Anderson as Maryland's athletic director, but he had come from Army. All right. He had been a successful AD at Army, right?

He went from Army to Maryland. I'm pretty sure it was Army to Maryland. And so, you know, he didn't want somebody that would be, you know, a complete wild card. He didn't want somebody showing up for meetings in a pirate uniform. Right. But you know what? It was a mistake not to hire Mike Leach. Yes, it was.

Absolutely. So I think that they paid for for over a decade. So Mike Leach passed away at the age of 61 years old, I guess late last night after, you know, major heart failure, I guess, over the weekend. He had been sick. He had had some heart issues you're reading about right now. He also had had pneumonia during the season. Anyway, it's 61 years old. It's just so young for somebody that vibrant to die.

It was very shocking to hear the news and then to hear how bad it was. And I think we've been expecting this news for a while. But Mike Leach, most of you know, was just an incredible character. I mean, just a quote machine. Every Mike Leach press conference you can find on YouTube, they're all super entertaining. He was always a stream of consciousness. He was, you know, he really was.

was a contrarian. He was eclectic. He was incredibly smart. He had gotten his law degree. He was a massive world traveler. He was interested in so many things. And at the drop of a hat in a press conference, he could go on about almost anything. And his press conferences were legendary. And I think most people know that. And the sense of humor that he had really made him one of the great characters in college football over the last, you know, 20 years, really. But I'm not sure everybody understands his contribution to the sport of football, not just

in college, but at all levels. Mike Leach was essentially the co-creator with Hal Mummy of the air raid offense. Mike Leach, when he was with Hal Mummy at Iowa Wesleyan, and then Mummy went on to

Kentucky, you know, and took Leach with him in 97, 98, And by the way, that's why Tim Couch, remember Tim Couch got drafted, you know, because of the numbers they were putting in. But they were an out-of-the-box duo that, you know, I know, and I've read this morning, and I didn't know this part of it, that they kind of credited Lavelle Edwards at BYU for a lot of what they came up with. Because Lavelle Edwards in the 80s, 70s and 80s with guys like Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Ty Detmer, Robbie Bosco.

He was one of the first coaches back in the day that would throw the ball 75% of the time and run it 25% of the time. And did so in a way that eventually was sort of the impetus for what Leach and Mummy designed around to create what Leach actually labeled the air raid offense, which was we're throwing at 75% of the time minimum. Our quarterback's going to come to the line of scrimmage, and he's going to have multiple options. You know, he's going to have two plays, and many times it's going to be two pass plays. Other times there might be a run in there, and he's going to look at the defense and then run it. And then, you know, it was the forebearer of what would become the spread, and they ran everything out of shotgun, and they had four wides, and they had trips, and all of these different, you know, passing formations were really designed and launched by how. Hal Mummy who went to Kentucky with great success and Mike Leach.

Leach's coaching tree, Tommy, is amazing. The people that came off of this Hal Mummy, Mike Leach coaching tree. Mark Mangino, Art Bryles, Ruffin McNeil, Lincoln Riley, all right, Sunny Cumbie, Graham Harrell. Let me just give you names you know. Josh Hepple, who is now coaching. He played quarterback. you know, under Leach. Cliff Kingsbury, Dana Holgerson, Sunny Dykes. I mean, you got,

no, Lincoln Riley's not in the playoff, almost made the playoff with SC. I was going to say, you've got two coaches in the playoff this year that are basically Mike Leach coaching tree guys. Sunny Dykes is in it with TCU. Mike Gundy, all right? And just Phil Longo, the guy who's at Carolina is the O.C. and is going to Wisconsin. Kevin Sumlin, who had that success for A&M, like you just look at what came off of what they did. And the way they changed the game, if anybody remembers college football in the 70s and 80s,

I mean, how about the Big Ten? Three yards in a cloud of dust was the nickname of the Big Ten and Woody Hayes and Bo Schembeckler and football in the Big Ten. And, you know, apparently Leach has always, given credit to Lavelle Edwards, who really did, you know, BYU to keep up with, you know, better teams. And remember, BYU had some terrific teams. They want to, you know, they shared in a national championship or they actually won it. Right? They actually won it in 803. Yeah. Washington and Georgia Tech shared one and then, yeah, BYU may have shared it. Right.

By the way, this was something that I didn't know. A lot of the passing offense route trees were developed via the air raid. A lot of the shallow crosses that we see all the time now in the NFL. You know, the the push over, let's call it the last 10 years, which, you know, really last 20, West Coast offense, which really started in many ways with Bill Walsh. You know, Bill Walsh was the creator of the West Coast offense. But a lot of the route tree and a lot of the routes come in, an ability for the quarterback to be quickly decisive and get the ball out, you know, in a hurry. And a lot of those crossing routes, shallow crossing routes, were all developed by these guys in the 90s and in the early 2000s. And then in the NFL, the guy that took it and ran with it and made it part of his West Coast offense, Mike Shanahan,

who apparently thought very highly of Mummy and Leach. everybody else that was involved in this. But he really was an innovator and an out-of-the-box thinker. And a lot of what you see in football today at every level was really developed by these guys. They took football into a completely different era. Now, they're not necessarily credited with the spread formation, but they are credited with air raid and four, you know, four wideouts, empty set shotgun with five receivers and patterns. You know, they're credited with that. And one of the reasons they came up with it is they felt it was the way that a team that was

deficient in talent against the bigger boys in the game would have a chance. You know, it's actually interesting because, you know, the Navy coach, Ken, you know, Niamatollolo, who just got fired. And I read the story of his firing. I mean, I don't know what this AD was thinking to go in and fire him as he was sitting at his locker by himself following the double overtime lost Army. I mean, I don't know if I'm missing a story from there, but everybody seems to have always thought that Coach Ken was first rate as a person and a coach.

Yeah. But I remember an interview that Zabe and Kooley did. when Cooley was doing the show with Zabe and Galdi. They had Coach Ken on their show, and Cooley got into this 15-minute discussion about the triple-option offense. And he said, look, we're under-talented. It's our way to be able to compete with the big boys. They don't see it.

It's hard to prepare for it. It's hard to stop it unless you've really practiced against it, and it's why we're competitive against much bigger, faster, and more athletic teams. and that's kind of why the air raid came together in college football. But anyway, just an incredible character. And I've just been, I sat here this morning when my show ended, the announcement of his death came through, and I'm just reading all the different people

that were really touched by this guy and influenced by this guy, big-time people in college coaching and in broadcasting. A lot of people that, you know, covered him in very, various spots that said he was just incredibly generous and always, always curious. He was a different cat altogether. Yes, he was. He was, as we like to say, an original. He was an original.

He was an original, yes. There's not a copy of him anywhere. There are some things that he has said over the years that I guarantee you he never regretted saying, but that have gotten him into trouble. There were some instances, obviously the one with Craig James's son. But like I'm looking, he went to Texas Tech, Washington State, Mississippi State, all programs that are in the second and third tiers of these major leagues, the Big 12, the Pac-12, and the SEC.

And, you know, he basically won everywhere he went. At Texas Tech, he took over in 2000, all right, and then got fired after the the 2009 season. He went 84 and 43 and took his team to bowl games in every single one of his

10 seasons at Texas Tech. And then at Washington State took over a horrendous program and was in a bowl game in year two and then in his last five years, 9 and 4, 8 and 5, 9 and 4, 11 and 2,

and then his last year they finished six and seven. Then he went to Mississippi State, four and seven the first year, the last two years, seven and six, eight, and four. And they're headed to the bowl game in Tampa on January 2nd. Mississippi State is,

which obviously, and unfortunately he won't be a part of, but his team will be in yeah. I don't know. It's also the fact he's 61. That's just way too young. I know. Yeah, I know.

It really is. And you know what? There's the thing. The way the system works now and the outside pressures about the way people are expected to act and speak, you're not going to see many, if any, Mike Leach's anymore. No. The price is too high sometimes right now in this day and age to be an outlaw like he was or pirate like he would like to say. Ben Standing just tweeted out the story from January 2nd, 2011. Pete Thammel wrote it, and Pete Thamel wrote a very nice kind of eulogistic column on ESPN.com today. January 2nd, 2011, Maryland's Athletic Department faced an intriguing choice as its coaching search narrowed. the two primary candidates, Kentucky coach Randy Edsel and the former Texas Tech coach Mike Leach

presented starkly different possibilities. Leach said there was a source associated with Leach. He said Maryland got cold feet, wanted to make the conservative safe, non-confrontational hire. He would have taken the job. He would have taken the job had it been offered. Mike Leach would have loved to have been offered. in the nation's capital. Oh my God. He would have loved it here. Well, think about, you know, the comp would have been Lefty. You know, Lefty came in and was a complete outsider and

totally different, but a total colorful character and, you know, became a legend. And by the way, Tommy, in a city that you'd never think, a southern, you know, basketball coach, like, lefty would have become a star. He became a star. Leach would have become a star. Leach would have loved coming here and the platform that he would have in a city like Washington. Absolutely. He may have gone straight from Maryland into Congress. Who knows? Oh, I wanted to mention one other thing about him. So I was talking to Cooley last night, who said, he called me just to tell me, he said, this news about Mike Leach is so sad and he hadn't yet passed and I said well I'm interested did did you ever meet him he said this summer he was in Cody Wyoming and I said why and he said

because he's from Cody Wyoming this is where he grew up he went to high school in Cody Wyoming and you know cool he lives there and he said we were at a rodeo and leach was there and he said Leach knew him and the two of them just sat down and they talked for like 30 to 45 minutes. And Cooley said he was the coolest guy and we just had the nicest conversation. So the next time Cooley's on the podcast, I'll get him to talk about that story. I mean, you know, Chris is a guy that I said, did you know who Mike Leach was before? And he said, it's not like I knew as much about him as probably you did, but I knew he was a college football coach. I knew that he had had this incredible sense of humor.

And I think he said somebody, you know, walked Leach over, walked Cooley over to Leach and introduced the two. And he said, you know, for 30, 45 minutes, we just sat there and talked. And he said it was the guy couldn't have been a nicer and more interesting guy. All right. Now, there was another death that I'd like to talk about. Can I guess? Paul Silas.

No. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. Angel Martin died. Angel Martin died? As in from the Rockville? Actor who played Angel Martin died. On Rockford Files?

Yes. Oh, what was his name in real life? Stuart Margolin. Stuart Margolin. He was 82 years old. He lived a full life. made the Rockford Files so great

it was so great to all the angel episodes he was such a great character he was such a weasel and yet he was so likable when there was nothing likable

about him uh yeah apparently he died in Stoughton, Virginia he must have had family there he died of natural causes uh you ever see the movie Kelly's Heroes? I'm sure I have, but it's not, I, I'm just going to say no, but I think I have.

Okay, it was a war comedy in this, in around 1970 with Kelly Savalas and Clint Eastwood and Don Rickles. Well, Stuart Margoe was in that. He played a character called Little Joe. Look, I've most people out there who are listening know Kelly's heroes. It's what a great war movie. for the past 50 years in terms of, you know,

a bunch of guys trying to steal gold out of a German bank American soldiers. But, I mean, for Rockford Files, I mean, Angel was so much fun, so great, so capable of sticking the knife

in Jimmy's back. I know. I mean, just, just, just, you know, giving him up on a dime. Yeah. Whenever he, whenever he, whenever it served his, purpose. It's literally stealing money from them, you know, and things like that. But Jimmy loved

them. Jimmy put up with them. You and I have, there are lots of shows we have in common, and there's some that we're completely opposite on. But that is, that was my show. As a kid growing up in the 70s, as a child of the 70s, and Friday night, you know, it's like the parents go out and, you know, at a certain age, we had a babysitter. I remember that. And I'm like, nope, I'm watching the Rockford Files. 9 o'clock. By the way, the NBC, I remember, it was Sanford and Son, Chico and the Man, Rockford Files,

and then police woman with what's her face? Angie Dickinson. But I loved James Garner. James Garner, remember, was a huge Oakland Raiders fan and would be at like every Raiders game on the sideline with a sideline pass. And, you know, Rocky, the 4. father and the sergeant, Dennis, you know, who was also a good friend. And then, and then Beth Davenport, of course, I don't know who the actress name is.

Beth Davenport was, you know, his lawyer. And, you know, Jimmy was always getting beat up. $200 a day plus expenses. That was his rate. Yeah. And he would start his morning with, you know, walking out of his trailer and walking to that taco joint for a breakfast taco. He was the best.

I thought you were going to say Paul Silas. No, I had a lot of respect for Silas. He was my, he's the kind of power forward that I grew up with, a workman-like, you know, rebounder, power forward type of figure, not a flashy guy, but kind of a power forward that I grew up with Gus Johnson, although Gus Johnson was pretty flashy. He could jump out in a gym. Dave to Busher, Bill Bridges,

Guys like that, Paul Salas comes from that mold of power forward before that position became more athletic. There are no positions in basketball anymore anyway. I was going to ask you a question because I kind of remember Paul Silas as a player. I remember him with the Celtics specifically. and then with the Seattle Supersonics when they played the bullets in back-to-back championships at the end of the 70s. But my father would always say, because you know my father was a huge basketball guy and basketball fan, my father would always say Paul Silas is the greatest offensive rebounder in the history of the league. And he's always been known as one of the great offensive rebounders of all time.

But I was going to ask you, because I think the answer is pretty easy. I think there is a greatest offensive rebounder of all time. And then you can bring Paul Silas into the conversation. And you can bring Moses Malone into the conversation because Moses was a great offensive rebounder. Moses is the answer to this question. I don't think he is the answer. When you say that, why, is he the highest offensive rebounder average? No, I don't know what the numbers are, but I know Moses got a lot of his.

his points through offensive rebound. No doubt. Okay. That's how he scored. Sometimes Moses would get three offensive rebounds of his own shot on the same possession. Yes. Okay. Well, those count.

Yeah, I know they do. To me, the answer is Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman's the greatest offensive rebounder of my basketball watching life. Moses was great, but again, I'm going to look up the numbers here because I bet you, Dennis Rodman leads in all-time offensive rebounds. And by the way, the other one that was a phenomenal offensive rebounder was Charles Barclay, a relentless offensive rebounder. And again, for all you people who never saw Bockley play in person, you know,

they listed him at 6'6 foot 6. Yeah. He was barely 6'4. Yeah. Well, Wes Unseld, they would list him at 6'7, and Wes kind of said at the end of his, you know, towards the end of his life, yeah, I don't think I was ever. taller than 6.4 and a half, 6.5. Here's the offensive rebounds per game

over a career. Moses Malone. Most Malone, number one, 5.1 offensive rebounds per game. Dennis Rodman, number two. Okay. 4.8. 4.A. Andre Drummond, number three. Oh, okay. Andre Drummond, number four.

Barkley's number four. Okay. Paul Silas is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 nights. and Weston sells his tense. Look, Moses, I'm telling you, Tommy, remember Moses was a prolific score. Dennis Rodman was not. Moses would, Moses average, what did you say his average was

and what the difference was? Was a 0.3, you said difference? 6.1, 5.1, 4.8, is that what you said? 5.1 offensive rebounds per game. What was Rodman? What was Rodman? 4.8. Yeah, so the difference was, that point, that three-tenths of a difference is that

Moses' offensive rebounded many of his own shots. Rodman never. Oh, I bet it. I mean, I doubt there's a stat on that. But don't you remember Moses? He would be, he'd throw something up. He'd throw another one up. He'd grab it.

And then finally, you know, he'd knock it down or he'd get it. get to the free throw line. Rodman barely, Rodman didn't shoot that much. Rodman was going to rebound others' shots. So I don't think the guy who was able to rebound his own shot two or three times should be penalized. It's not like everyone else was standing around saying, oh, that's just Moses. Yeah, but he was right, he was right there. You know, Rodman had to come. I don't think that's a penalty. Okay, I'll tell you what. I'm going to tell you a quick. story from the great Red Hourback. When I was a kid, I've told you before, I went to Morgan Wooten's basketball camp. It was Morgan Wooten and Joe Gallagher, the St. John's coach. They had the

Metropolitan Boys Basketball School. It was the number one basketball, summer basketball camp on the East Coast. Kids came from all over the East Coast to go to this camp. And every single session, Red Auerbach would come and speak. He was a given to be one of the guests speak. He was a given to be one of the guest speakers. And one of the real lessons that he taught, that he taught, and he always pointed out Paul Silas, who had played for the Celtics. He said, you know, there's a real talent and a real knack that you have to have to be an offensive rebounder because you have to be able to judge the ball in the air and know where it's coming off. And Silas was the best ever at that. Well, of course, you know, Dennis Rodman wasn't anywhere near becoming an NBA player at that point.

But Silas and Rodman are similar, because Silas wasn't a score either. No, Silas averaged maybe 10 or 11 points a game. What did Rodman? What did Rodman? Rodman never, I would bet never averaged, maybe a couple times average double figures. I get that, but I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. Because it's harder to offensive rebound someone else's shot than it is your own shot. That's why. That's simple.

Okay. Okay. It is. All right. As a shooter, by the way, you know when it leaves your hand where it's coming off. There's an advantage. It's a real talent to know when you're not the shooter based on the ball flight where it's coming off. Dennis Rodman, whatever. Moses was a look, I'm not knocking Moses. He's one of the, I think he's actually, like, it's kind of the way I feel about Elijah one. I think sometimes they're both very underrated in the center conversation. You know, I say that. And yet Elijah one sometimes I see show up in top 10 lists and, you know, usually no worse than top 12. I think Moses is the same way. Look, Julius Irving never gets a title without Moses Malone. Never in the NBA.

Those 8376ers were all about the addition of Moses Malone. Yeah. Oh, you're right. You know, Buck Williams is 11,000. Oh, my God. He was an outstanding offensive rebound. Outstanding rebound. Yeah.

Yeah. Buck, by the way, you know, still lives in the area. Quick funny story about Buck Williams. So my wife, as you know, is a real estate agent. my wife calls me one day and she said I just left a house showing a house to somebody and just the loveliest couple. And he had all of this Maryland basketball stuff all over his house. And I asked him if he had, you know, he was tall and I said, because you know my wife, my wife, I married somebody who could not care less about sports. opposites attract. Now she actually does like Maryland basketball and always has

gotten into Maryland basketball and you know knows the Willards and Turgeons and Gary and Gary Weld is also. But anyway, she called me as she was leaving and she said, do you, have you ever heard of Buck Williams? Like, yeah. And she goes, was he good? Because he had they had a lot of stuff in his house and I said he's one of the greatest players in the history of Maryland basketball. I mean, he is definitely in my, you know, on my list of the greatest Maryland basketball players, which starts with Bias and Dixon and then goes to Lucas and McMillan. Buck is, you know, pushing top five of the greatest Maryland basketball players of all time. And she said he and his wife could not have been, you know, lovelier people. But anyway, long story short,

Buck was just a phenomenal rebounder in general, but he was a good offensive rebounder. Where is he in the rankings of all-time offensive rebounders? He's 11. 11. Yeah. Interesting. Are there any other names on the list that I'd be interested in that you see? No, not really.

Okay. Wes is on the list. Wes is on the list? All right. You wrote a column. We're going to get to Washington Commanders' Talk. I promise you. But I have to tell you a story that you're going to absolutely love,

but at the same time be infuriated about. And you wrote a column this morning that actually is a pretty good segue off of the story that I will tell. We will get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Tommy, tell us about Shelley's. Okay, Shelly's back room at 1331F Street, particularly this time. of year, if you're down in D.C., you know, enjoying the holidays, the holiday market, we're going to see the National Christmas Tree. It's a great stop, you know, to get warm, to have some lunch, have a nice warm whiskey, some of the great whiskey selections that they've got

there. And like I've mentioned before, it's a great place. If you're not a smoker as well, if you're coming in with somebody who smokes because of their menu. That's true. Their menu is excellent. Let me just keep one thing on the menu that a lot of people like. Everyone likes wings, right? Yeah, I'm sure. They have voted D.C.'s best wings, their campfire wings, a pound of roasted, not fried,

well-seasoned, and marinated jumbo chicken wings with the choice of shelley's honey, Honey, mustard, blue cheese, or ranch dressing. Right there. I'll tell you, if you're walking down the street anywhere in D.C. And you've got a craving for wings, Shelly's is a place you want to go. And have a smoke, you know, after those wings. You know, celebrate a great meal with a great cigar that Shelley's back room at 1331F Street. Great spot, especially this time of year.

I did want to just real quickly follow up on the Buck, William. thing that we were talking about because I said this to you during the break. And I said, did I say that? And you said, I don't think you said that. So when my wife said to him at one point, did you play for Maryland basketball? He said, yeah, I did. I played back in the 80s. And that was it.

That was it from Buck Williams. And then you said something. You said, I'm pretty sure he was one of lefties favorite players. Oh, yeah, he was. He loved Buck Williams. Yeah. You know, that team, that 1980 team in particular, with Buck Williams, Albert King, Greg Manning, Ernie Graham, Reggie Jackson, Dutch Morley. That was a really good team.

They rose to as high as I think three in the country, four in the country. They won the ACC regular season title. And then in a game that would become one of those Duke Maryland games, the Duke rivalry was not in 19. 1980 what it would become when Gary got there against Coach K. This was a Bill Foster coached Duke team. Maryland's chief rival was North Carolina and North Carolina State. But in the 1980 ACC tournament final in Greensboro, Kenny DeNard undercut Buck Williams as Buck went in to tip in an Albert King shot at the buzzer

that would have won the ACC tournament. And at that point, remember, Lefty had lost multiple. multiple ACC tournament finals. And the ACC championship, which was the tournament winner, had it eluded him. And they were the number one seed. They were top five team in the country. And the ball's hanging on the rim.

You can find this highlight anywhere you want. Kenny Dinnard went literally submarine Buck Williams as Buck went in for an easy tip-in game winner. And Buck went down hard. falls off the rim, no call. Of course no call on Tobacco Road in Greensboro. And Duke won the 1980 ACCC tournament final over Maryland. In Maryland that year, that was the year, Tommy. I've talked about this game. Maryland ended up playing Georgetown in the Sweet 16 at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. Maryland was the two seed in the region. Georgetown was the three seed. This was the Sleepy Floyd

Shelton John Durant team. Ed Spriggs, And it was a rematch from a game earlier that season that was played at the D.C. Armory where Lefty and John yelled at each other and cursed each other out. I think you've heard about that story. Buck Williams did not play in that game. He was hurt and didn't play in that game. And Georgetown beat Maryland. And it was basically the first time in the regular season that Maryland had lost Georgetown. And that ended the series. That was it. And, you know, Maryland fans say, great, we play you three. the 70s, beat the shit out of you basically every year, and then you finally win and you're not going to play us anymore? And so that's why we always did blame Georgetown for the end of that

series and blame whatever it was that Lefty and John got into. Well, you know, we asked John in that, and I talked to coach about this many times. Coach's thing was, look, we had the Big East. Remember, 1980, 79 was the first year of the Big East. We, We now had a big-time conference schedule, and then he made the remark he often made, which is we weren't building a local program. We were building a national program. And in many ways, the Thompsons were not fond of Maryland or the ACC. There was a rivalry there, for sure.

You know, that's why I always say the people that say, oh, I root for them both. Well, you didn't really feel strongly for one or the other if you root from both. but yeah, and then they wouldn't play again until 1993. But they played in the Sweet 16 that year, and Georgetown won. Georgetown won the game. Tommy, that's one of the most hyped local matchup of any sport, because you don't have local matchups a lot. It was one of the most hyped local college basketball games of all time.

The buildup for that Sweet 16 game in Philly between Maryland and Georgetown was off the charts. And even, and everybody, Maryland was favored. Everybody assumed Maryland would win. And Buck Williams was back and he wasn't there for the first game. But Georgetown was better. They were better. They beat, you know, lefty and lefty, you know, was stuck there again in the Sweet 16 with a team that really looked like it had a chance to win a national championship. Now that 1980 year, Georgetown didn't get to the final four. They lost to Iowa in the elite eight the next, or two days later. And that was the year that Larry Brown coached, UCLA against Daryl Griffith, Dr. Duncanstein, and Louisville in the national championship game.

Anyway, I have a story to tell you. And then I want you to talk about your column, because I think it's a good segue. So last night, the Wizards lost. They've lost seven in a row. Pretty much from the day that I said, you know, this is a decent team. If they stay healthy, I think they're going to finish in the top six in the east. They've lost seven in a row, and they lost to Brooklyn last night at home, 112 to 100. Just as a quick aside, I think in a lot of NBA markets, I think a lot of people would be calling for Wes Unsell Jr. right now.

And they should be. He's not a very good coach. And I think that he's a super nice guy, but we know the history with this particular owner. He is patient and loyal, so I don't expect anything to happen. But, you know, the bottom line is they've had a lot of injuries. Beal hasn't played the last four games with the hamstring, and Beal's missed a bunch of games. Porzingis hasn't missed any games yet. I think he missed one. That was the guy you were really concerned would miss a lot of games.

But anyway, in the game last night, Kyrie Irving had like an incredible move that went viral. Like he drove into the lane, he went up, and he showed the ball in his right hand as if he was going to shoot, flipped it to his left hand and flipped it, left-handed up into the air, into the basket. And so with that, with two of my three sons, the two that are big sports fans, all right, we're always on a group text thread, you know, almost always about sports, but sometimes about music, sometimes about politics, sometimes about a lot of different things. In fact, they just sent me this Mike Leach thing. But last night, they sent me the video of the Kai Reel.

layup that had Katie, had Kevin Duran up cheering and going crazy. And my youngest son, Ryan, said and wrote, and dad thinks John Stockton could play in the NBA today. With laughing emojis following. And that happens a lot in this group text thread. It happens a lot with, you know, because they know how much I love magic and how magic's always been my number one of all time. And a lot of times they'll send me a LeBron highlight thing,

and they'll just say magic, really? And it's a lot of that stuff. Now, I will tell you real quickly, there are two players, they get the Jordan thing. They understand Jordan. I mean, thank God. They're not that dumb. And they are always wowed when I send them,

or they find Len bias highlights or Dominique Wilkins highlights. Because Wilkins, the way he dunked was so unique. His athleticism was so otherworldly that it totally would translate to today. Sean Kemp would today. Sean Kemp, though, was 610. You know, Neek was 6.7. Bias was 6.8. And so, but I get a lot of that from them.

I get a lot of that on Bird. The Stockton comment was funny. By the way, I looked this up. Do you know that John Stockton, and I knew that he was far ahead in assists on the all-time assist lead? He is so far ahead of everybody else on the career assist lead, on the all-time career assist list. Jason Kidd is 3,715 assists behind Stockton.

You know, you and I talked about the wilt stats, how incredibly, they're just not going to be matched ever. Chris Paul is playing right now. He's 4,70013 assists away. He's 37 years old, about to turn 38. He's not going to catch. I don't think Stockton will ever be caught. Magic was the one that would have caught him had his career not been shortened by HIV. because Magic's all-time average assists per season was slightly higher than Stockton's.

But that's one of those. We don't talk about his number. No one, especially with minutes restrictions and, you know, rest nights, no one's ever going to come close to Stockton's all-time assists. You know, he's crazy now, you know. John Stockton. Why? Because he's conservative? No.

He came out last year and said 150 professional athletes have died from COVID Prime in their life Once they were vaccinated 150 vaccinated Prime in their lives professional athletes Have died because of COVID Did he give the list?

No He didn't name anybody There is no list Did he give the list? Well the myocarditis thing was actually a real thing But there is no list 150 professional athletes. That's crazy.

Understood. Prime of their life. Comment on no one's ever going to catch him, right? Okay. Right? Probably not. No one's ever going to catch him. So you wrote a call.

What do you think about my boys sending? And dad thinks John Stockton could play today. By the way, I do think John Stockton could play today. Absolutely do. So do. Yeah. I absolutely do. Good.

You know? Yeah, because that's, yeah. He was a great ball handler and a great passer with incredible vision and incredible basketball IQ. So I do think he could play today, actually, yes. But you wrote – Well, mention to your boys next time when they're salivating about watching Dominique Wilkins. Yeah. That Larry Bird scored 60 on him one night.

Yeah. Okay. Mention that to them. So what did you write about Larry Bird? I have not read it yet. Well, last week was Larry Bird's 66th birthday on December 7th. And it was going to run last week, but then the conduct detrimental report came out. So that kind of put it by the wayside, but I was determined to get this in the paper, so I revived it for this week.

I've just been so impressed and kind of caught up with the Larry Bird stories that are on YouTube. I mean, I'm not sure any other basketball legend has had their reputation more enhanced from YouTube than Larry Bird has. Okay. I mean, the stories are just unbelievable. Oh, let's go. Let's get to what I wrote. Let's get to the basics here. You know, he's never in a conversation about, like, you know, the greatest of all time.

It's old he's Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kobe. you know, you go back in time to Kareem, Oscar, Wilts, and Bill Russell, but Byrd usually never comes up in that particular conversation. However, if you talk to NBA players who played

the game when Bird played or even watched him play, they put him on that list. They put him right there. Wilk Chamberlain in an interview in 97. Now, I grant you, this is before LeBron, before Steph, and

in the... The first part of Michael's, yeah. Wilts Chamberlain picked, they, uh, Will Chamberl and Bill Russell, they had to pick the greatest players they ever saw other than themselves. Okay. Will's pick Larry Bird,

said he's the greatest player he's ever seen. Russell picked Bird third after Magic and Michael. Not Oscar Robertson, who he played against, but Larry Bird. Wow. And in another interview, Kareem said that Byrd may have been the best player he ever faced in his 20-year career.

Who said that? Quote, the best, Kareem. Yeah. The best guy I played against might have been Larry Bird. You know, the muscle was between his ears, and that was the best because he made three-point. He made three-pointers, assisted, rebounded, and steals. He was always in the right place at the right time. Remember, this is a guy who Jabar got into a big fight with on the court.

In the finals. In the 84 playoffs. You know, Julie's serving. Who another guy who got into the fight with? Yeah. He basically said, you know, when he guards me, he can't stay with me, but I'll be honest. I can't really stop him either. And then James Worthy said, James Worthy said this.

He said he'd rather face Jordan. He'd rather face Bird than Jordan. No, he'd rather face Jordan than Bird. Right. Yeah. You had to play the game as a thinker with Larry Bird. You had to get inside his mind. He wasn't quick. He couldn't jump very high, but there were some sleepless nights. Okay, so that's its status right there. But the best part is the trash talking story. Yeah, right. There's a whole story on the athletic that goes through all of the trash talking stories told by players. I read it. It's excellent. Yeah, there's just unbelievable

like the story Xavier McDaniel who was one of the toughest guys ever to play in the NBA you know he tells this story when he was with Phoenix it was a tie game

they had the ball and they were stalling the basketball Larry was standing off to the side and then he called a timeout he turned around and said to me I'm going to score right here on you pointing to a spot on the court and Xavier said,

I know you will, I'll be ready. And he did, and it was all that. And then he said, I told you so. And there's so many stories about him telling the guys, I'm going to go here on this court, I'm going to go right here, and I'm going to take this shot, and you're not going to be able to stop it.

This is my favorite. This is at the end of his career when he was on the Dream Team in 92. And, you know, this is when he was back. He really had a lot of back problems. you know, the college players in a practice game played the dream team

and reportedly beat them you know and that was pretty controversial at the time and Jamal Mashburn was on that team and he tells his story we get back to the hotel Rodney Rogers who was on that college team

says to Larry hey Larry you ain't hit a jumper since 1984 Magic heard him The next day we came in, Magic's fed Larry Bird the ball probably eight times in a row down the court. Larry Bird got the ball on Rodney Rogers. Every time he was about to make a move, he told Rodney what he was going to do. One dribble on the left, pull up, off glass bucket.

One dribble on the right, then shoot, bucket. He scored eight times in a row. Then he had to go lay down on the bench because he couldn't sit down because of his back. And he said to Rodney Rogers, Young fella looks a lot like 1984, doesn't it? Well, I mean, there's the famous story in the three-point shooting contest in the All-Star weekend where he came in and he just grabbed the ball. He said, who's finishing second? But there was, there's a lot of them in that story that I read, and I'm looking for it right now, and I'm finding like a version of it because I want to read it correctly.

Like almost, apparently. I mean, at night he went for 60 against Atlanta. It was one shot, I guess he told them, if I have this right, that he was going to make this jumper and fall into their bench. Into the trainer's lap, yeah. Yes, into the trainer's lap. And when he did that, and the Atlanta players went nuts. Went nuts.

They were, that happened a lot of times with Birdwood. Get Mike Portello for cheering. Yeah. There's a couple of. bullet stories, you know, of the Celtics Bullets games from back then. And I just found it because I didn't find it on the story that I read. But Kevin McHale told the story. He said, I was getting ready to start a game, get to the jump ball. And Larry says, out of the blue, he says, go ahead, Kevin. Tell Elvin Hayes what you told me. And I didn't tell Larry anything. He said, no, go ahead.

He said, you said you were going to kick his ass. And Elvin Hayes is looking at me. And at that point it was hard to say no I didn't say anything so I said yeah I guess I did say it and then there is the there's the night and I think this was a great buckhants call too like I think it was a great dagger call I think so Chris Ford tells the story they're playing in Washington Larry just hit what would have been the game winning shot but Casey Casey Jones, who was their coach, had called timeout. So Larry came back to the bench and he was a little upset. He looks at the bench, Casey Jones recalled and says,

you guys, when I come back in from the timeout, I'm going to go right to the same spot and I'm going to knock it in again. He told Washington walking out onto the floor, where I made that spot before my coach called timeout, I'm going right back to that spot and I'm making the same shot. And he did. I mean, that's incredible. There's nobody I've heard that had that kind of arrogance on the court. Or at least verbalized it. Oh, he's an all-time trash talker.

We've known that for years. Danny Aange said, and I'm finding some of these stories that came out of the athletic story, Larry used to come into the locker rooms. He'd be getting taped up, and he would say to, you know, whoever the ball boy or the guy in the building, you know, mopping up the locker room, he'd say, hey, hey, come here. Go do me a favor and find out. who holds the scoring record in this building and what it is.

Yeah. But, I mean, to hear what other players from his era speak about him. Like, he's one of the greatest players of all time. Yeah. You know, and I don't think he, you know, I just, I just think it was worth the attention. And you tell your sons that that, that, Domino, Dominique, that guy that they are so impressed with, Larry went hit 60 on him one night. Yeah, I think what they look at with Dominique is they see an athlete capable of playing today.

And the truth is Dominique was different, you know, than everybody else back then. That's why bias was different. They didn't, they were 6'8 with 46 to 48 inch verticals with long arms. And so the dunks were just ridiculous. I mean, Dominique Wilkins was, I still think he might. be the greatest dunker of all time. Because Sean Kemp, who some people will say, or Vince Carter, well, Vince Carter's in the conversation.

Kemp was 611. Neek was 6-7, you know, right around 6667 and had the long arms, and he would double triple pump and then bring it across on the other side and dunk in your face. And Neke was a great score too. And bias had those same things. That's why I always said way back when people would compete. pair bias to Jordan, I'd say, no, that's not the right comp. The right comp is Dominic Wilkins.

Because Jordan was a guard. Bias was a forward. You know, Dominic Wilkins was a forward. Right. But, yeah, the, trust me, when they, I send them, whenever I, you know, whenever I see something on YouTube, and I spent too much time, spend too much time on YouTube, and I find one of those bird things, I send it to my boys and they're like, you know, they literally actually say he'd be very average in today's game. And here's the thing. I understand where they're coming from watching Larry Bird highlights, okay, which are, they're magical because of the passing. I think the greatest highlights of Bird are his passing highlights, just like with magic. They are two of the all-time greatest players at making everybody else better. I'm not sure they're too better. I'm not sure

there are two better players in the history of the game with better passing vision and anticipatory, you know, sort of passing ability than the two of them. But Larry Bird looks like, you know, one of the guys pop would be playing with up at Bethesda Sport and Health athletically. But no, no, Bird would have found his spot in today's game. So would magic. But I understand, you know, there's diet and training and evolution and they are bigger, faster, stronger. And it's amazing when I'm, I mean, I've told you this before. I told you about the night that I was sitting there watching NBA TV and they ran like

Game 7 from the 1962 NBA Finals. And I'm sitting here watching it and I'm like, oh my God, DeMathas Junior Varsity would have won this game. And I don't think, I think that's an exaggeration, but I'm not that far off. I think there was a real big jump from where they were, by the way, where they were not fully integrated in every single place in the country, you know, in NBA cities, in the 50s and 60s to where they would become in the 70s and 80s. I think it was a completely different game.

Like, look, here's the thing. It's like Karim's quote about Larry. They think he was a chubby white guy, but he would wear a stamp. that the muscle he had was between his ears and that was the best because he could do everything. He was always in the right place at the right time. I look, I mean, your boys should be smart enough to know that just because you're athletic doesn't mean you're going to be a great basketball. No, no, my boys do know that because, you know, my youngest knows because we went into a lot of different gyms everywhere around town and always did well.

with not an overly super athletic or explosive team. So they understand that there are ways to certainly compete without the athleticism, yes. Yeah. Okay, well, that was my column. I will read it. I will read it. And maybe if you read it,

maybe you could retweet it too. I will. I always do. Okay. Sometimes with prodding. needed. I'm not always aware of when your columns come out.

All right. Let's get to some football talk right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by Window Nation. Window Nation's got a really good deal going on right now. You can buy two, get two free, so you're paying half price on the windows.

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Landover or somewhere else, hopefully in D.C. So a couple of things. Number one, smell test lost last night. I had Arizona and Kyler Murray went out with a non-contact injury. Looks like it's a torn ACL. That's too bad for him. I talked a lot about the playoff picture yesterday, and I read through some of the responses I got from some of you.

Most of you don't think Detroit is going to run the table. but I'm just going to tell you they don't really have to run the table. You know, Detroit has a chance to get in as a 9-and-8 football team by winning three of their final four. You know, the reason being is that the loser of the Washington Giant game, and I would say especially if it's the Giants, they're still going to have to win two more games to finish better than 9-8 to get to 9-7-1.

Seattle's going the other way in a big way, although they're a three and a half point underdog at home. That is short. I think I'm going to have Seattle on the smell test on Thursday night. But I don't know. I think Detroit right now is among the teams that will be feared if they do make it to the postseason. I really do. So I did this segment to Tommy this morning on radio. I wonder if Sunday nights the first night of,

like a real, legitimate home field advantage crowd. They haven't had one in years. I think you'd probably have to go back to maybe the 2018 season with Alex Smith early in that season when they were on, you know, a bit of a role. They played a game against Dallas that year. But even the Houston game, if you recall the Houston game in which he got hurt in when they were a six and three football team, the place was half empty. I mean, it was at least 30% empty.

The whole upper deck was empty in that game. I know. I know. You know? And I think the Dallas game, there were a lot of Dallas fans there. But it's been every bit of four years, if not longer, since they've had a legitimate packed house with mostly their fans. Do you think Sunday night's the game? It's the biggest game they've had in, you know,

it's the biggest game they've had probably since 2016. went on New Year's Day, 2017, they played the Giants to get into the postseason, but the Giants had nothing to play for that particular day. It's probably their biggest, it might be their biggest home game since the playoff game against the Packers following the 2015 season. You know, I said before, and I think there's some truth to this, in that moving it to Sunday night, will probably cut down on the number of giant fans

willing, who would have been willing to make the trip for an afternoon game. They have jobs, unlike Philadelphia and cowboy fans. They've got to get to work on Monday morning. So, but I don't know how much. You know, it is, I mean, I hate to make a test case a Giants game. I mean, I'd much rather them playing a home game against a fan base that usually doesn't show up. you know, for the other team. Yeah.

So it's a tough one to make this a test case. I think they will, I think they'll, Washington fans will be well represented. And I think it'll feel like a decent home field. But I still think if the Giants score and you're, I tell you what, here's the test. If you're outside the stadium and somebody scores, and it's the Giants,

and you hear cheering, then you've failed. I think there are going to be some giant fans there. So a couple of things, number one, just to catch everybody up to speed. Washington's dead last in the league in attendance. It's not even close. Through last week, they're averaging in their six home games so far. This was through six games. How many home games do they have left?

They have the Giants. Yeah, they have three left. They have the Giants, Browns, and Cowboys at home with one road game against San Francisco. So this is updated through last weekend, Washington dead last in the league averaging 57,899 fans. It's not even close, just so everybody understands. Like the bears who are 31st in attendance are averaging like almost 4,000 more fans a game. So it's really not even close. And here's just, you know, a kick to the teeth of Dan Snyder.

Dallas is averaging basically 36,000 more fans per game than Washington. Washington also has, they're dead last in the percentage of capacity in attendance. And it's not even close. They average 85.6% of what their capacity is, which is I think 62,000. in change. Jacksonville's 31st, they average 92.3%. So, you know, Washington's the only team in the league below 92%. And they're at 85.6%. So, you know, just not everybody knows these numbers, and they're dead last in everything when it comes to attendance. We all know that their, you know, average capacity is, you know, now among the lowest in the league or the lowest in the league, maybe.

it might be the lowest in the league. I think it is the lowest in the league. And I think Chicago is second Soldier Field at 62 and change. Anyway, Washington's, I looked at tickets on the commander's site, and then I looked at some of the aftermarket ticket sites. There's definitely less tickets available on their site than there have been for recent home games. but still it pales in comparison to what's left for the Dallas game. Like the Dallas game, these tickets have been bought up by Dallas fans. If it comes down to Washington needing to beat Dallas in the final game of the year,

and by the way, if Dallas needs to win that game for whatever reason, it's going to be a road game. That's my guess. I don't think that Sunday night is going to be a road game. I think you nailed part of it, and that is you're not going to get a big New York walk-up group because if the game had been on Saturday night maybe, if it'd been a Sunday one o'clock game maybe, but it's Sunday night, they've got to get back to New York and they've got to get to work, even though it's a holiday week. It's early in the holiday week. So that may play into more Washington fans,

a better percentage, a better ratio. You know, I don't think this is going to be a 50-50 deal. I think this will be 60-40 or 70-30, Washington to New York. I'm not sure it's going to sell out. That's what I've heard. It'll be very close as to whether or not it'll be a sold-out game. But I do think in terms of like the atmosphere, it's got a chance to be the best ratio for a game in a while and the most people rooting for the home team in the stadium

than they've had in a long time. I was thinking about, you know, FedEx. I think that's possible. I think that's possible, yeah. Field has not hosted a lot of big-time games, you know, and it's 25-year run now, you know, opened up in 1997. And I had Gus Ferrat on the radio show, Tommy, on Friday. Gus Ferrat quarterbacked Washington in the first ever game played at FedEx Field and threw an overtime touchdown pass to Michael Westbrook. Anyway, in thinking about the years, there are two games, there are three games that really stand out.

to me. And I was at all three. The 2005 home game against the Cowboys when they were making a run to the postseason in December. Both teams were good. It was Parcells against Gibbs. By the way, it was the rematch of the Monday Night Miracle game from week two when Santana Moss caught two touchdown passes on the final three minutes of the game from Mark Brunel in one of the real memorable Redskinned Cowboy games of all time. Well, later that year, when we were, Washington got on a role and ultimately made the playoffs. That crowd at FedEx, that was the best crowd the stadium had ever had since it opened eight years earlier.

That 2005 game against the Cowboys in December, Joe Gibbs against Bill Parcells, both teams were, I think, eight and five, or maybe Washington was seven and six, and Dallas was eight and five, and Washington's trying to make a charge to the postseason. That game before, it was a late afternoon game. That game during, that game after was great, and Washington rolled 35 to 7. And somebody called when we did calls this morning and said, they remembered Parcell saying after the game, they walked into that stadium and they felt like they had no chance. And FedEx was rarely that way.

FedEx was excellent for the season finale in 2012, RG3's year, in the game against the Cowboys on Sunday night football that determined the division winner. It was really good that night. But for me, the next week, the playoff game against Seattle was one of the great. I think it may be the best crowd if the 2005 crowd wasn't, especially when they took a 14-0 lead and seemed in control. That place was electric that day. It was a late afternoon Sunday game, the final game of Wild Card weekend.

It was a highly build game because RG3 was playing and had had the magical year, but was injured and was coming off the injury. And then obviously it became one of the most infamous games ever played. But that was a great crowd. The Green Bay playoff game after 2015, I remember that game. There were a lot of Packer fans, a lot of Packer fans in the crowd. So I'm not saying Sunday night's going to approach some of the best days and or nights in FedEx Field history, even though it should be one of those special

nights, but it's just not for a lot of reasons. Pauley called this morning, Big Pauley, and made a really good point. He said, this is an important night for commanders fans. If I'm right and you're right, Tommy, about it feeling very much like a new team and, you know, an expansion team, and really what they have to do is they've got to try to build a new fan base with new fans that don't feel like this is an expansion team like I feel like it, you know, with the commanders and everything else, then this is a big night for those people. Let's see if they show up.

Not only that, it's holiday time. You get a lot of young people that are home, you know, from wherever college or work or whatever, to spend time with their family. And I know a lot of times end of the year, even when it's not a big game, my boys over the years when they came home from they wanted to go to the game not to go into the game but to tailgate at the game and so um I this and I thought it was an interesting point like this is kind of a big test for the new people that are kind of excited about this team and by the way the way they've played you should be excited they got some good players that they're well coached

I think right now and they're making a run however however and I find there's so Washington. So that's unique to this franchise. I'm amazed at the amount of fans that hate their quarterback and want him to fail. I don't, again, I don't agree with that. I know you feel that way. I don't agree with that.

Oh, my God. I think there is a... I mean, I just literally just like, not only hate him, but can't wait for him to fail. I think there are people that are hell-bent on being right about him, and many of you might say, well, Sheehan, don't you fall into that category? I really don't because from the jump, going back to the Tampa Bay game, there's always been something about Taylor Heineke that I like.

I mean, I love, like, I mean, let me just tell you, as a basketball coach, the kid who's the overachiever who isn't gifted has always been one of my, favorite kind of players. I understand why he's here. You know, he is smart. He is likable. He is, he's got a charisma to him a little bit. He's limited. He is limited. Okay. I watch a lot of football. Most of you do too. And you know if you watch the rest of the league. And I actually heard from some of you last week. It's like, I got to watch, you know, other NFL games because I, you know, I was usually, and I think our fan base. really is dialed in more on the Redskins game than the rest of the league.

If you watched NFL football, you just saw quarterbacking in some games. It doesn't look anything like what we've been watching here. They're going to need to find a quarterback. But it doesn't mean, and I've never disliked Taylor. And I've told you before, I think he's exceptional as an off-scheduled quarterback and that he's a big-time gamer and baller and clutch. I mean, and look, the bottom line is it's better if the team does well for me anyway. I do think the conversation about Carson Wentz is a reasonable one,

but I'm not advocating for it. I do think, by the way, Tommy, and I said this yesterday, but I have not said it to you. I do think, based on a couple of conversations at the end of last week, that if they didn't tie that game against the Giants, if he hadn't converted that fourth and four, which he did, and he's done before, and lead them down the field. And, you know, if that game hadn't ended in a tie that way,

I think Carson Wentz would be starting on Sunday night. I don't think he would. I don't think Ron would pull the trigger on one game. I do. I do. I think that they really, right now, are riding six one-in-one, or five-one-on-one with him. And they understand how hard it would be to say,

yeah, we're going back to Carson Wentz. But I think that they believe Carson Wentz is much further along than what he was, and they think the team is better. Although I think there's a real issue at Center. And I'm curious to see what they announced tomorrow they're going to do if they even announce it at all. Wentz is going to be on the, well, he is.

He's on the 53 man now. I would think that he's going to be the backup quarterback Sunday night. And if he is physically able to be, he should be. He absolutely should be. But anyway... I think he will be. I think there's a chance that Sunday night, when you're watching the game on TV, which I will be,

I will not be going to the game. Are you going to the game? I'm not sure yet. I think it's going to sound, and it's been a while since, at least on TV, it is sounded like a true home field advantage. And I know there have been some lively crowds this year, and I appreciate that, you know,

but I also know that there hasn't really been a case in which it's been better than 70-30, and in some cases it's been 50-50 or in the Philadelphia game the other way. And it'll be that in the Dallas game more likely than not. But I think Sunday night, my prediction is it's not an actual sellout, but it's damn close to a sellout. And it's at least 70-30, if not a little bit higher, Washington to Giant fans, which will definitely give it the sense of like a legitimate home field advantage. It's going to be cold Sunday night.

Sometimes the cold games are even the more raucous games because people are moving around and they want to yell and scream to stay warm. I hope we don't see an empty upper deck. I hope we don't see the yellow in the club level dominate sort of the screen, which happens all the time. and I hope it's not just a lower bowl effort here. I hope that they have 60,000 and that, you know, let's just say it's, let's go, let's be optimistic here and say it's 80% of 68,000. So you got 48,000 that they're there cheering for Washington.

That would be about the most they've had cheering for Washington in a few years. You'd have to go back to 2018 to probably find something comparable. That goes beyond optimistic. You think so? 80%. Yeah. Okay, well, I said it was very optimistic. Well, that's not optimistic.

That's the T word. It's delusional. Okay. Well, you know, anything like around the 45,000 mark of people rooting for Washington would be a big number for them. And the Cleveland game, there are lots of tickets left. The Cleveland fans are not coming at the end of the year. year to see the Browns. So you're going to have a chance to make that game feel like a

true home game. And I think you're right. I think the Sunday night nature, the Sunday night switch gives Washington a chance to have a good, you know, good mix. What's your prediction? My prediction is the Giants Went. No, what you, I don't need your prediction today. Oh, what do you what's my prediction? On the crowd. I made mine. In terms of the crowd? Yeah. I think it'll barely be 60-40 Washington. Will it sell out?

No. Yeah. Okay. You got anything else? You can't go wrong, banking on failure with this team. Just can't do it. You got anything else? I got nothing else for you today, Bought.

I don't either. I'm back tomorrow. I don't know with whom. Cooley doesn't have a film breakdown because there wasn't a game. But we will have a show more likely than not tomorrow. So tune in. Have a great rest of the day. Oh, tomorrow night, Tommy, Maryland and UCLA, you know, at X-Finity Center.

You going to go to that game? No, I'm not going today. Okay. Talk to you later in the week. Have a good rest of the week. I'll talk to everybody else tomorrow.